Why are there no PWC/ Jet Skis with V-Twin Harley-Style Engines? [Archive]

Chris Ostlind

08-10-2009, 08:18 PM

Chris Hall

08-10-2009, 09:42 PM

It could be done, Chris, if one were to use a slightly breathed-on Sportster engine that was setup for watercooling. Because such a thing doesn't exist, AFAIK, you'd get further down the line with another bike engine that was setup for offroading, where weight is held down and the power curve is elevated.

A quick search for 4 stroke engines in this category would maybe yield an answer.

The problem, as you have probably guessed, is weight factors. While street bikes are ultimately concerned with all-up weight to some extent, their offroad brothers are totally obsessed.

If it's that vee-twin sound you like, you may just be out of luck.

Truth be told, I have never been impressed with Harley's engine technology, such as it is. They long ago saddled themselves with an engine that has all sorts of design issues, in order to save that sound and have made next to no attempt to join the push to engine potential outside of that really primitive technology.

Everybody in motorcycling long ago left Harley in the dust.

And that's my rant just a bit off topic for the day.

That's why I thought the Kawasaki Vulcan engine would work fine...they have a few different sizes (900, 1500) that have the Harley sound but water-cooled and dependable. The next challenge would be to marinize it, then mate it to a jet drive...

The more I think about it, a V8 would be pretty awesome to shoe-horn into a PWC-style craft, and I'm thinking that there are jet drives that already exist for that engine, plus the V8's have already been marinized for the last 50 years or so. I guess the next step would be to retro-fit a PWC hull that would accept it...maybe get an aluminum LS-series Vette engine to save some weight?

Chris Ostlind

08-10-2009, 10:03 PM

Then let's quit messing around with heavy American iron, Chris. Why go Vette, when you can get the finest go-fast engine made for its size; The Cosworth 3L F1 DFV Short Stroke. 264 lbs. with power ranging from 415 hp to 520, depending on configuration, and a redline of 9000 rpm.

That is a much better power to weight ratio than any Vette engine that could possibly fit in a PWC.

And that sound.

In the end, it's all about the weight. The heavier the engine, the fewer people you can carry. Want to keep the same passenger load, then the hull has to get bigger... and so goes the spiral.

That's why the PWC market was totally dialed into two strokes for so long, even when the manufacturers knew that they were very bad for the environment. They rev instantly, producing very quick power and they are much lighter than their four stroke brothers.

PAR

08-12-2009, 05:44 AM

A HD Sportster engine has it's transmission and engine case as a single unit, so this engine is out. You'd have to use the big twin single or duel cam engine as they are just engines.

All of these HD engines are first class engineering and something Richard is clearly not acquainted with, particularly the fact that the first generation "Evo" HD V twins where designed by Porsche! They don't leak, they produce globs of power and are copied by nearly every other motorcycle manufacture in the world, so there must be something to these big twins.

Anyone unfamiliar with HD engines since the AMC days (1970's) wouldn't have a clue about their reliability, torque, etc. This coupled with you can't judge one unless you've actually spent considerable time on one. Trust me, I use to own an "outlaw" HD shop and you don't get laid riding a Honda, just because you're riding a Honda, but you will if riding a Harley.

The Boss Hoss is a bitch of a bike to ride, but surprisingly accommodating, just don't drop it. It's a warm bike to live with and doesn't have much going for it, unless you enjoy having your nuts flapping in the breeze, when you grab a handful of throttle. If you'd like a closer relationship with a supreme being, take a Boss Hoss out for a few full throttle blasts.

The HD big twins would make a reasonable boat motors, but why bother, except for the novelty of it. I haven't seen one yet, but I'm quite sure someone has shoe horned a small block Chevy into a big PWC by now. This is the first engine to get grafted into anything (they work good on motorcycles), so you can be they're out there. Weight would be an issue as a full up small block, with a transmission is about 900 pounds. But given you can have upwards of several hundred reliable HP, could be a fun ride. Hell, I use to have a 454 CID stuffed into a Opal GT, now that was a fun car and it didn't sound remotely like a Toyota.

For what it's worth, Kawasaki has never made an engine that sounds good. Good sounding engines are universal, the V12 Packard, the Rolls/Merlin 12 used in the P-51, small block Chevy, big block Chevy, the flat head Ford, HD air cooled V twins and several others all would be considered internationally acclaimed good sounding engines. The Japanese haven't figured out how to make a decent sounding exhaust yet. I think it's an inner ear problem.

Chris, light engines in light boats work well, but you can wind up a small engine all you want in a heavy boat and just wish you had some real torque, instead of multiplication. Of course if you toss an aluminum 2,000 HP big block Chevy cranking 2,500 ft. lbs. of torque, in that heavy boat then you've got a fire breather.

In the end you have to pay the piper. If you can't afford it, you go little, but many pistons. If you can afford it, you increase displacement and reciprocating mass.

apex1

08-12-2009, 07:23 AM

Paul
>>>something Richard is clearly not acquainted with<<<

thats true, but that:

>>>first generation "Evo" HD V twins where designed by Porsche!<<<

I know.

And a Boss Hoss is´nt a Motorbike, it´s a "Two wheeler"

this is a bike! A real one....

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/Patron_Haya.jpg

Regards
Richard

Chris Ostlind

08-12-2009, 09:03 AM

PAR,

The EVO may have been "designed" by Porsche, but it was done on a strictly controlled set of parameters as delivered by Harley. The result was equivalent to Hall Of Famer, Sandy Koufax, being called in to pitch for a sandlot team. Dude can bring a golden arm to the game, but he’s still got to pitch from the same crappy mound. I wouldn't be of the opinion that a world class engineering company, such as Porsche, who had already produced ultralight and seriously powerful, dual overhead cam engines capable of winning at LeMans, would really specify a powerplant like the EVO.

Back in the 70's, I raced 350 production on what was essentially, a street legal Yamaha twin. Not only did I get plenty of offers for the soft stuff, but I regularly ate Harley's for lunch. Stop light to stop light, canyon blasting, never once punched-out by the heavy, slow revving, teeth rattling "potency" of any Harley that was street legal in SoCal. I'm not sure, but I think it had to do with the power to weight, the instantaneous power, typical rider quickness on a more responsive machine and most of all... the satisfaction of giving a smile to His Badness when he finally did roll-up to the next light.

Back in that day, Harley was fielding a gang of very good riders in the AMA Grand National events around the country. One of those events was held during the annual Daytona Speed Week where all the competitors brought their rides to jam around the famous road race circuit. The Harley Boys were just peachy as hell if Kenny Roberts brought his Yam four stroke twin, but the day the big yellow truck arrived carrying serious, 350 two stroke GP equipment, they kinda got pushed to the middle of the pack. All while they had the same view of Kenny Robert’s butt, as the boys in SoCal did of mine.

Two years later, Yamaha rolled-out their 750 GP road racer and it was all she wrote for Harley on the asphalt. Geez, Kenny Roberts even rode a modified 750 GP bike in the famous Sacramento Mile dirt track event and "somehow" managed to dust the Harley team by a full lap. What did the Harley team do after that.... they whined to the AMA that it wasn't fair and threatened to take their team off the track. I love that bit of submissiveness in the face of a better-engineered and performing product; "I'm going to take my ball and go home". They never said anything even remotely like that when they were winning their share of races, so where'd the balls go?

That singular event shall be the eternal lament of the Harley dirt track team... The day they packed up like sissy's when a simple rice burner shut their puffed-up, macho image down.

No offense, PAR, but Harley chose their path of engineering indignance and in so doing, they cast the die that will perpetually limit their ability to engineer a truly competitive product. The answer is not in the application of ever-bigger jugs, carbs etc. It resides in a better engineered, lighter moving mass powerplant that revs instantly. An engine that churns out F1 quality power per cc in a more compact size that allows superior chassis geometry.

There's a reason why you do not see Harley twins out on the track (even in this modern day) when they've had plenty of time to create a respectably competitive powerplant. Suzuki, BMW, Yamaha, Honda, Ducati... all of them, have constantly moved the bar higher while Harley has lowered its expectations into a pure novelty machine.

The boys from Wisconsin have choked their own chicken and settled for their wannabe niche marketing angle. An angle, I hate to say, that has gotten seriously thrashed in this current world economy. The company just shutdown another 1000 plus workers with no near term anticipation of firing it back up. The days where thousands of pimped-out attorneys, sporting leathers right off the pages of a glossy Harley Accessory Catalog, hauling their rides to Sturgis in a trailer behind their Escalade are gonna, hopefully, pass before us like a purists bad dream. Might as well spray on a coat of Rhinoliner to the streets of Sturgis; It has gotten that pedestrian.

I went there in '73 to take in the spectacle and revisited in '94 and found the "atmosphere" seriously poisoned by the elitist gloss. WTF is a real biker rally when you see moms and kiddies strolling the streets of the town with cotton freaking candy and tourist trinkets in their hands? And Harley happily bumps along, sweeping-up large profits from the sales of more Middle Class crapola. What the heck has happened to that company, anyway?

Chris Hall

08-12-2009, 09:48 AM

The HD big twins would make a reasonable boat motors, but why bother, except for the novelty of it. I haven't seen one yet, but I'm quite sure someone has shoe horned a small block Chevy into a big PWC by now. This is the first engine to get grafted into anything (they work good on motorcycles), so you can be they're out there. Weight would be an issue as a full up small block, with a transmission is about 900 pounds.

For what it's worth, Kawasaki has never made an engine that sounds good. Good sounding engines are universal, the V12 Packard, the Rolls/Merlin 12 used in the P-51, small block Chevy, big block Chevy, the flat head Ford, HD air cooled V twins and several others all would be considered internationally acclaimed good sounding engines. The Japanese haven't figured out how to make a decent sounding exhaust yet. I think it's an inner ear problem.

I like that quote..."inner ear problem"!

I've been searching on the 'net for anyone that has put a small-block in a PWC and can't find anything.

Then let's quit messing around with heavy American iron, Chris. Why go Vette, when you can get the finest go-fast engine made for its size; The Cosworth 3L F1 DFV Short Stroke. 264 lbs. with power ranging from 415 hp to 520, depending on configuration, and a redline of 9000 rpm.

That is a much better power to weight ratio than any Vette engine that could possibly fit in a PWC.

I found that the weight of the LS series aluminum small block is 430 lbs. without a transmission, and will produce quite a bit of horsepower and torque (and music). Standard horsepower from the earliest LS1 is 350 hp/365 tq and the bad LS7 stock is 505 hp/ 470 tq. When modded, these are crazy fast engines; 700-900 horsepower is not uncommon. I haven't heard of the Cosworth before, forgive my ignorance, but I can't imagine them being reasonably priced, or a person having the ability to get replacement parts quickly and inexpensively.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/new-ls1-owners-newbie-tech/242392-ls1-weight.html

What's also cool about the Vette LS1 is the dry-sump oil system available for the LS1-LS6 (and standard on the LS7) that keeps oil pumping to the engine when exerting lateral g's.

mark775

08-12-2009, 09:53 AM

I like v-twins, as well, but a different flavor. Aprilia, Ducati, Highland (Just happens to be alphabetical. Hadn't thought of it, but that Highland from Sweden (made in China, tho) would be sold independent of the bike and is a torque monster.
Look into four-stroke snow machines for what might work in a wet bike. The mountains crowd has been nearly shut down by their noise for decades and some went this route.

TollyWally

08-12-2009, 11:53 AM

LOL Chris,
Would that possibly be the infamous RD 350 Yamaha? My buddy had one of those, we used to switch bikes and terrorize the neighborhood. Lots of stories, good times. It was more bike than I could safely handle. I thought of it as the most dangerous motorcycle in the world. In a good way :)

Chris Ostlind

08-12-2009, 12:21 PM

LOL Chris,

Would that possibly be the infamous RD 350 Yamaha?

Yep, that's the bugger. Rode it to college everyday when it wasn't raining.

apex1

08-12-2009, 04:30 PM

Yep, that's the bugger. Rode it to college everyday when it wasn't raining.

Was a nice beast, but the first Mach III, 500ccm 3cyl. Kawa, was twice the danger, no breaks, no frame, no nothing worth talking just ENGINEEEEE and consumption like a 80 tonnes tank at full throttle. 1969, yeah, we grow older, my Hayabusa is a pussycat compared with that Mach III beast.

PAR

08-12-2009, 06:31 PM

A small block Chevy can produce over 2,000 hp, though engine life is rated in minutes. A big block doubles this with the same side bar. Fairly reliable versions of these engines can be had at half those HP figures, though you'll be at the parts store frequently.

Unless you've twisted the grip on a Boss Hoss, you can't appreciate what they are. Most folks don't understand, unless they're like me and willing to stuff a big block Chevy in one of these just for fun.
http://www.opelgtsource.com/pictures/stock/73gt.jpg

Tossing 500+ HP in a 1,500 pound car is entertaining, not practical. Riding a raked, big twin with a suicide shift and no front brake is entertaining not practical.

Look there's those that buy a big BMW, slap some bags on it and head out, because "they like to ride". Then there's those that think that's not riding and would prefer to have their feet up, their backs reclined and enjoy the idea of bugs dieing terrible deaths on their teeth or forehead.

apex1

08-12-2009, 07:02 PM

Paul at 320km/h my bugs die fast, and my visor is closed............

PAR

08-12-2009, 07:08 PM

See, that's the difference, I wouldn't consider a visor, those are for sissies.

apex1

08-12-2009, 07:18 PM

See, that's the difference, I wouldn't consider a visor, those are for sissies.

I would be pleased to invite you for a ride on my bike Paul! Just ten minutes on a German Autobahn on Sunday morning!
You will redefine the word Sissy. :D

After two hours of regenaration, of course................................

kroberts

08-12-2009, 07:27 PM

Just a couple comments.

First, bikes of the era you guys are talking about were horrible by any modern standard. They had engines, but they could neither turn nor stop. And the engines (especially two strokes) had torque curves that were wildly erratic. I think that the reputation motorcycles still have today as death traps stem mostly from the cafe racer mentality.

I have what I consider to be the first decently handling bike that still had nuts: A 1987 Yamaha FZX 700. I don't need to win races, but it's small and light and fast, and no surprises with handling or stopping. None of those gay-assed fairings either.

Second: In high school I drove an Opel GT. Stock, 4-speed. Par, I hope you did something with the steering and the weight distribution when you put the bigger mill in.

Third: Killing bugs on a bike is awesome, but at anything over 100 mph they hurt.

apex1

08-12-2009, 07:39 PM

Third: Killing bugs on a bike is awesome, but at anything over 100 mph they hurt.

Now who´s a Sissy?
But look at my outfit, nothing hurts, and above 240 km/h they do´nt hit you anyway.

To the Yamaha, that was a fine bike, but the "MV Agusta 850 SS America Arthuro Magni Cento Valli" I had in the late 70ies was the first one which had it all. Engine, brakes and a perfect handling!

kroberts

08-12-2009, 07:51 PM

I don't have the armor, so I feel the bugs. And there is no fairing of any sort, I want to ride a bike, not sit inside a house. So there's no speed at which the bugs don't hit.

Don't be spreading that "sissy" word around. You have both a fairing AND the body armor. Who's afraid of bugs really? :)

I've never seen a copy of that bike that I know of. I'm not going to insist that the 87 fzx was the first decently handling fast bike, I was pretty young back then and my exposure to a variety of bikes is still pretty limited.

apex1

08-12-2009, 08:30 PM

Don't be spreading that "sissy" word around. You have both a fairing AND the body armor. Who's afraid of bugs really? :).

Hähä, ja the "coachwork is mainly for speed you know. I do´nt think I would like speeds above 200km/h on a naked bike. And the armor, well I paid my toll at just 40km/h, missing it once! 9 month in hospital 5 operations and a stiff leg told me what is bold and what is clever.;)

TollyWally

08-12-2009, 08:59 PM

I don't know about that 87 Yamaho being the first. I had a cb750F Honda that was well mannered and damn fast. The KZ 900 was an easy bike to ride. Lots of good bikes in the 70's, they weren't like todays ninja rockets but were plenty good enough to get in and out of trouble.

mark775

08-12-2009, 10:56 PM

Nice bike, Richard.
Not on the Autobahn, of course, but throw in some turns and this thing
34041
.........Aprilia SXV 4.5.........
will seriously embarrass darn near all. It will not do 200 but I am convinced that, with all the topes, (tortugas, speed bumps) it is the ultimate Mexico City bike. Don't take this as an endorsement for commuting on the Periferico, Insurgentes, or other such two-wheel death traps. Come on down this winter and I'll show ya a nice route from D.F. to Cuernavaca or Guadalajara to Mazatlan.

PAR

08-12-2009, 11:41 PM

The Opal was a drag car mostly, though I did enjoy driving on the street, taking folks money at the stop light races. It had a tube frame, Ford 9" rear with trailing links, tubular front suspension, firewall move back about 6" to accommodate the mill and you had to step over the cage in order to sit in it. The wrinkle wall slicks were a dead give away though.

Richard, you can easily have a 500 HP Boss Hoss. When was the last time you cranked on a grip that had 500 ponies in it? It's just not the same as a well mannered street bike, even a fast one.

apex1

08-13-2009, 07:35 AM

Richard, you can easily have a 500 HP Boss Hoss. When was the last time you cranked on a grip that had 500 ponies in it? It's just not the same as a well mannered street bike, even a fast one.

On Sunday Paul! But to be honest, it was about 450hp only! But thats a question of turning the "steam" knob another turn. MAB Turbo Hayabusa the yellow one with the #1 on it. Owned and tuned by my friend Halil in Istanbul.
www.halilyasar.com
And this bike does´nt need a mobile crane at every second junction!

Mark
nice the Aprilia but not my world. (Autobahn is not my world either, cornering is biking for me, and after one hour near full throttle on a free German Autobahn you have to buy a new rear tyre!). These of road bikes are the perfect toy to learn handling a bike, to get familiar with the dynamics, but that was 40 years ago......

Frosty

08-13-2009, 07:49 AM

[QUOTE=TollyWally;293049]I don't know about that 87 Yamaho being the first. I had a cb750F Honda that was well mannered and damn fast. The KZ 900 was an easy bike to ride. Lots of good bikes in the 70's, they weren't like todays ninja rockets but were plenty good enough to get in and out of trouble./QUOTE]

The Honda CB 750F is considered to be the first of the superbikes. I had one, I would'nt call it fast.

I have an ole 1400 Intruder that does'nt know what a hill is, very ill mannered,-- it hates Harleys and eats them for breakfast. It digs holes in tarmac.

It wont go round corners and will use full tank in 120miles. I like it because it makes children cry when I start it.

I ride in flip flops and t shirts, at sun down bugs round here are as big as sparrows. What is a visor?

Doc Nozzle

08-13-2009, 09:17 AM

You may want to search around in this forum:

http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=126

If anyone has tried stuffing a different engine in a PWC it will probably be posted there.

Chris Ostlind

08-13-2009, 10:14 AM

... you can easily have a 500 HP Boss Hoss. When was the last time you cranked on a grip that had 500 ponies in it? It's just not the same as a well mannered street bike, even a fast one.

...and therein lies the argument. "... a well mannered street bike"

It's my opinion that a motorcycle needs to be able to perform all the required tasks that one would expect of a machine that carries human beings, and further, to perform them well for the price of the vehicle.

Acknowledged that one of these can pump out the horses. The question is, since it's supposed to be ridden, is all that power actually tractable in the wide range of needs of a thoroughly ridden motorcycle? Does the bike handle? What is the stopping distance? Can it be turned under full braking load? What is the ultimate lean angle? (when the suspension is compressed and the bike heeled until something starts to touch pavement) What kind of fuel consumption does it have in the real world?

While the Boss Hoss has a weight to power ratio of 2.39, the Ducati 1198S is hitting the mark at 2.19. The difference is all in the wet weight when it comes to actually using what the two bikes have to offer. There is an enormous inertia penalty going on with the BH machine that will seriously press the bike into failure mode if pushed hard for any reason. The same is not true for the Duc. Clearly, handling and responsiveness are not the forte of the BH.

Lastly... and I fully realize that this is purely subjective, but those things are just flat ugly in their aesthetic execution and it's made worse with those over the top graphics. The machine is in dire need of a trip to a well-respected industrial design studio. There, it could get the lines cleaned-up and the paint treatment done in something that enhances the overall look, rather than further clutter that which is already a hodge-podge visual affair. JMHO

This has been fun and I'm as guilty as the next for sidetracking things, but perhaps we can take it back to the topic?

Frosty

08-13-2009, 10:27 AM

Your not a biker are you chris?

Chris Ostlind

08-13-2009, 10:34 AM

Yes, I am, but I sense that you are referring to a specific application of the term, no?

apex1

08-13-2009, 11:39 AM

[QUOTE]...and therein lies the argument. "... a well mannered street bike"

Suzuki Hayabusa.................

It's my opinion that a motorcycle needs to be able to perform all the required tasks

ALL is not possible Chris, but (as with boats) all of the intended use is.

Acknowledged that one of these can pump out the horses. The question is, since it's supposed to be ridden, is all that power actually tractable in the wide range of needs of a thoroughly ridden motorcycle?

Yes for the Hayabusa, yes to a lesser extend for most of the competitors. NO for the Boss crap.

Does the bike handle?
Yes for most of the superperformance bikes, NO again for the BS, sorry BH.

What is the stopping distance?

Less than a proper powered VLCC needs (though not much less) for the BH. Extremely much better for todays power bikes than for our 70ies goodies.

Can it be turned under full braking load?
No bike can!!! physics.........

What is the ultimate lean angle? (when the suspension is compressed and the bike heeled until something starts to touch pavement)
Ultimate is something around 53° on racetracks with racing tyres. Physics say 45° but physics do´nt know bikers mentality..........:D

What kind of fuel consumption does it have in the real world?

My 200hp Hayabusa has a average (yearly) consumption of slightly above 6ltr. per 100km, not racing of course, fast touring.
As mentioned above the Hyabusa is a pussycat compared with all other superbikes on the market at present (although by far the fastest)! We have proven that she in fact is a perfect beginners bike, due to her extremely smooth and stressless behaviour!!! Of course the brain should be intact under the helmet. (And most countries have beginners restrictions)

Regards
Richard

Chris Ostlind

08-13-2009, 12:23 PM

[QUOTE=Chris Ostlind;293167]

No bike can!!! physics.........

Respectfully disagree, Richard. I did it all the time on the track, as well as on the twisties when cafe biking.

If you are suggesting a full lock-up of the brakes, yes, you are right. But, that is not full braking load, which occurs before that point while the wheels are still turning and under control.

Squidly-Diddly

08-13-2009, 01:10 PM

HD motors have enough problems with rear cylinder cooling when fully exposed.

Plus, I think all PWC are required to have water-cooled exhaust as a fire safety.

The only car fire I ever had was from a leaking value cover constantly leaking on the exhaust header. Appairently, it had to first build up some charbroiled oil to further reduce cooling for it to ignite.

I do agree there would be an American market for Big Twin sounding PWC, but I'm not sure if it would be there for a Japanese liquid cooled Big Twin powered one "just because".

PS-one of my back burner projects is to rig a simple electric fan on a air-cooled bike, because it would give me peace of mind when sitting in trafffic or chugging up a long slow steep road.

Motor cycle salesmen will tell you it is not needed because the bikes have been pretty well thought out over the years, etc. Then they will tell you that your air-cooled bike should have the oil changed about twice as often as a water-cooled bike.

Why? Because once the oil passes over a 'hot spot' the oil is basically 'burned' and not good.

"So, if the oil passes over one of these hot spots just after a change then I'm riding around on BAD OIL until my next change?" they don't have an answer for that.

Air cooled engines last about 1/2 as long.

The Vespa Ciao moped has forced fan cooling with a shroud. I hear that "solves most problems".

apex1

08-13-2009, 01:41 PM

[QUOTE=apex1;293185]
If you are suggesting a full lock-up of the brakes, yes, you are right.

Of course not Chris! But I think I misunderstand your question. Pulling the brake while the bike lays at an angle (when cornering), will immediately bring the bike in a upright position, as you know. Then you go straight ahead. And there is nothing to avoid that (not even ABS).
So, what did you mean, with "turn under full breaking load"?

Chris Ostlind

08-13-2009, 02:02 PM

What you are suggesting is just the opposite of what is done everytime a GP racer enters a turn. The bike is partially leaned and partially steered into the turn while breaking hard (sometimes through the apex depending on entry speed) and then it is gassed, up and out of the turn radius, setting up for the next turn, or straightaway.

Equally so, and depending totally on the banking, the turn radius and the speed held through the entry, the bike might be braked only as it enters, while the power is applied smoothly and forcefully through the apex, as the machine exits the turn. Sometimes, the rear wheel loses traction incrementally and a rear wheel drift is the result for the talented riders... If one is really good, then both wheels can be drifted while turning... another way to successfully turn a motorcycle at speed that also violates all the rules one typically learns.

We can go on and on like this for days, but it won't change the reality of what happens when a motorcycle is braking while going through a turn. If I am not making this clear with my descriptions, I apologize.

apex1

08-13-2009, 03:08 PM

What you are suggesting is just the opposite of what is done everytime a GP racer enters a turn.
We can go on and on like this for days, but it won't change the reality of what happens when a motorcycle is braking while going through a turn. If I am not making this clear with my descriptions, I apologize.

Still have NO clue what your question was, sorry. And after all the first timers lessons, we had to know what I described above, braking when going through a turn brings the bike upright, thats it! And its a nono.

If one is really good, then both wheels can be drifted while turning... another way to successfully turn a motorcycle at speed that also violates all the rules one typically learns.
That has nothing to do with braking, and is not as difficult as it might look.
A good driver can do a lot of things the average amateur should better leave, but from 1967 `til now I have not seen one of them braking in a turn, without loosing precious parts of the bike or the dining room furnishing.

Frosty

08-13-2009, 08:52 PM

There are 2 kinds of bikers. there is the biker that watches the Grand prix then gets his leathers on and goes for a ride, (I wonder what he is thinking) taking corners on oublic roads as if he was---well you know.
A menace to the public and probably would not be aware of an accident he was responsable for a mile bacK down the road.
The kind of biker that even bikers dont want to see, the kind of biker that most European countries are trying to regulate out of existence.

Then there is the cruiser, the Vtwin. This guy drives down the road , back straight enjoying the weather and the flora and fauna, the rumble of his bike is enjoyable, stopping at lights to say hello to the old lady
and helping another early morning rider on his way.

Tiping his helmet to the vicar as he rides through the town, every one smiles and cheers.

Organised cruises are available in most countries and bikes such as Royal Enfields are used.
Gp wanna be's are a menace to the public road.

Ike

08-13-2009, 09:14 PM

Actually the first PWC engines were based on motorcycle engines, escpecially the Kawasaki Jet Ski and the Yamaha pwcs. But they had to make significant changes to them because they are in a boat. Motorcylce engines are out in the open air, PWC engines are enclosed. So you get into breathing issues and ventilation issues. Plus they don't have a transmission in the motocycle sense so this meant changes to cams and timing and various other things. But one of the big factors was keeping water out. How do you keep the engine running when the pwc is upside down and water is puring in the intakes? PWC engines are designed to keep on running upside down or if the pwc is "catching air".

On top of that they had to satisfy USCG safety issues with fuel and electrical systems, how to draw from a fuel tank upside down, and so on. The current engiens in pwcs are pretty amazing, and they have gotten much quieter, and the Yamahas even have catalytic converters. You won't find that on a Harley. now days they have to meet all the USCG safety regs, the EPA, and California environmental regulations as well.

So, yeah, you could drop a harley engine into a PWC but you would have some serious issues to solve, one of the biggest would be the added weight. But it would be a real mess to sort out the problems.

apex1

08-13-2009, 09:17 PM

There is a third group Frosty! They sit already on their bikes when the GP races happen, because it is weekend then, and they like to bike not to watch biking! And the wannabe´s are not long enough with us to be a real menace, their own nature sorts them out quickly.

Frosty

08-13-2009, 11:51 PM

Strange !!! Im sure I left a hat for you there,--its on the 1st peg.

jtd

08-14-2009, 06:52 AM

after reading this question and all the posts I cant help but reply with a simple answer " because it's not practical"

if you just want the sound and don't care how or if it will perform, then you should try to get that hd v twin in a pwc .

but this is like asking why cant you buy a corvett with a 4-cyl.

PAR

08-14-2009, 04:04 PM

What's practical about a PWC?

Submarine Tom

08-15-2009, 12:13 AM

Blah, blah, blah, just do it. Why not? If you're talking about it, do it!

I rode and raced an RZ350 for seven years and thank you for the trip down memory lane but come on,

why not put a 400 hp turbine in a PWC?

They're small, light and have awesome transmissions available.

"Talk's cheap 'till you get the bill."

So, Chris Hall, when's your projected completion date?

Any drawings to show?

Yipee kiay,

Tom

Frosty

08-15-2009, 01:41 AM

You name submarine tom is a dead giveaway to your fearless approach to making crazy stuff .However a 400HP turbine in a jet ski is pushing out the boat a bit.

pistnbroke

08-15-2009, 01:53 AM

I solved the re engine jetski problem with my kawasaki S1 sport ..bought it for $300 empty but in showroom condition ....fitted a 30 hp Yamaha outboard .....now its a propski and exempt form jetski ( pwc ) restictions .......rocket ship ......cheap easy to maintain and pisses the river police off great ....

Submarine Tom

08-15-2009, 11:21 AM

You name submarine tom is a dead giveaway to your fearless approach to making crazy stuff .However a 400HP turbine in a jet ski is pushing out the boat a bit.

Do you think so?!?!?

No more than the 2000 hp talk earlier.

It's all the same, just talk, good fun, but still, just talk.

Tom

P.S. Are you sure it's my handle you don't like or the fact that I rode a crotch rocket?

How do you stay awake on those recumbents frosty?

PAR

08-16-2009, 01:39 AM

I wouldn't consider 2,000 HP on a jetski, but would consider 2,000 pounds of thrust, maybe in a dry propellant and a few extra fins, possibly a seat belt . . .

Landlubber

08-16-2009, 04:08 AM

ahhh, boys and our toys, what the hell is "practical".......just returned from a run on my Harley to the Gold Coast and back, sore bum, numb fingers.....and very happy thanks.
Just love the BM for a real ride though, but "practical" ......wtf.

marshmat

08-16-2009, 12:16 PM

PAR, with that kind of thrust you will have to add a pressure cabin and oxygen supply to keep the helmsman alive as you approach low earth orbit... ;)

As to the overpowered jet ski ideas- we do have to remember that these are not big boats. 12' long by 3' wide does not give a whole lot of volume to support the weight of a large, heavy motor. I'm not sure I want to know how much money Yamaha, BRP, Kawasaki et al. have thrown at trying to shave a kilogram or two off their high-performance models.

Most of the higher-powered PWCs I've seen have a compact, high-revving engine shoehorned in there so tightly that you'd almost have to pull the motor for routine maintenance. They have these long, serpentine air vents to try to keep water off the motor when the thing nose-dives. Frankly, there just isn't the space in a normal PWC to fit larger-displacement engines.

PWCs, practical? Maybe if you dock it with a ShuttleCraft, but for the most part they're just expensive toys. So, if anyone wants to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours modifying one to accept a larger, less powerful, less refined engine than it came with- who am I to stop him?

powerabout

08-16-2009, 12:59 PM

A few guys have put V6 merc outboards in them.
Thre was a guy on here I think who converted one to a shaft with a hot motor and got the thing doing over 100mph then the thread went all quiet.....

Submarine Tom

08-16-2009, 01:42 PM

Looks like we lost Chris Hall the thread starter.

Maybe he's busy prying that V8 into his jet-ski.

Personally, I think he's nuts, but all the 'power' to him!

I had a good chuckle at Pistonbrokes solution.

That is absolutely brilliant. "Sorry officer, it's not a jet ski.

Look, see my prop? Bye-bye..."

I love it.

Tom

mark775

08-19-2009, 02:04 AM

34173
That's 150 MPH...
might have been 160 but
for the weight of the eggs...

Chris Ostlind

08-19-2009, 09:52 AM

Here Richard,

Because you seem to insist that braking while turning is not in the cards, take a moment and read all of this piece on Trail Braking. Take note to digest the comments by former World Superbike Champion Freddie Spencer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

The technique is used by every road racing rider who wants to discover his lowest lap times and subsequently win races. In the photo below you can see two riders entering a turn. They have unweighted their seats and are hanging their bodies over to the inside of the turn with their inside knees opened to help slow the bike with aero drag. The rider on the left is very clearly applying his brakes as you can see that the forks of his bike are still compressed... and yet, he is very clearly leaning into the turn in tandem with another rider, as well as having his bike heeled (leaned) into the turn. Why is he not being jolted upright and thrown to the outside of the turn, as you say that he will, due to the laws of physics?

Perhaps the reason you think this is, as you put it, a No No, is because it leads to lots of crashes for amateurs? ;-)

Now, I don't know if you ever raced any motorcycles, but you may wish to consider this as a reality for both racing and street riding...

If two vehicles enter a turn at the same time (Common on the track and also on the street if the roadway is two lanes on each side of the center stripe) what happens if the vehicle on the outside of the turn suddenly changes their line/changes lanes to the inside portion of the turn? This effectively cuts off the inside rider and he must alter his course. So, what does he do?

A. He can turn in tighter... if there is room.
B. He can center-punch the offending rider who is cutting him off.
C. He can apply his brakes momentarily, allow the other rider to go by and then resume his adjusted line through the turn.

I don't really know where you got this notion, but motorcycle riders all over the place are doing it everyday, staying in control and motoring about with big smiles on their faces. Virtually every rider on the track is doing it under very serious speed and handling scenarios in very close company. Just because you may not agree with the practice, does not mean it is not being done successfully.

So, if physics says it's impossible, why then is the practice being done day in and day out with great success?

Regards

Landlubber

08-22-2009, 11:36 PM

Frosty

08-22-2009, 11:44 PM

I like safe riding personally, I always lift the side stand before going round corners. If I come to a corner I am not sure of I park the bike and take a walk around the corner kicking the gravel etc.

I then go back to the bike and push it round the corner, then start the engine and drive away safely.

pistnbroke

08-23-2009, 12:02 AM

well they dont call the yanks septic tanks for nothing

Stay cool but not frosty

Landlubber

08-23-2009, 12:10 AM

Frosty,

Only a girl would lift the side stand, have you lost all sence of adventure.
How will you ever learn to brake in a corner if you don't leave the sidestand down, run the red light into a big tight left corner, then.......

Frosty

08-23-2009, 12:12 AM

Im not a sepo,--im a pom.

Frosty

08-23-2009, 12:18 AM

[QUOTE=Landlubber; d run the red light into a big tight left corner, then.......[/QUOTE]

I always run the red light,--its the only time I can be sure of whats going on. I never go through on a green, too bloody dangerous to go straight thru so I turn left --do a U turn then turn left again.

I don't know what the middle light is, whats that for ?

I always thought it was so if your not sure,- just go anyway.

Landlubber

08-23-2009, 12:20 AM

No mate, the middle one is orange, it means" redline the motor now".

Frosty

08-23-2009, 12:25 AM

Hmmm I dont think they are orange here, kinda amber colour ,-but then again I dont look it it too much ,--they make me dizzy flashing off and on like that.

Red line the motor?? but I was pushing it.

Landlubber

08-23-2009, 12:30 AM

but I was pushing it.........

that phrase has two meanings.....you were physically walking next to the bike as you wheeled it along....or that you were hard fisting the throttle, pushing it to its limit.........I refer to the later meaning.

Now, Enfields, as anchient as they are, I would expect that you were walking alongside it at the time referrenced.......

Frosty

08-23-2009, 12:37 AM

Na mate,- I was pushing it, you don't expect me to ride through traffic lights do you.

Na again,-- the RE is in Malaysia, Im talking of Thailand where I have a Suzuki 1400 intruder and Elephansts dont have brake lights. Yes they stop at lights too but the hand brake is crap and tend to creep a bit. Plus they got this big swingy thing on the front that comes over and sniffs your headlamp,---and other bits.

Its not much better pulling up behind them for obvious reasons.

Landlubber

08-24-2009, 12:29 AM

Suzuki 1400 intruder.......emmmmm, sort of makes all my bikes look weeny.

Oh well, happy fume sniffing anyhow mate.

I thought I read before that you brought back the RE with you, must have misunderstood (or did not read properly anyhow, which I often do, same as my speelin, don;t bother chechen my tyipping very often.

Frosty

08-24-2009, 01:55 AM

No No No yes its easy,--- House in Thailand,--- Intruder 1400 and a small Suzuki crystal for bar hoping and supermarket.

Malaysia and boat,-- I went to India an brought back an Re with me.

I brought from Thailand on the boat an AJS coffee shop racer 250.

Thats 4 bikes.

pistnbroke

08-24-2009, 02:56 AM

please frosty stop this racist language (!) POM......if you was black would you want to be called a Nigger or if german a Krout ..or french a Frog ...so top this you bad boy ...ha ha

stay cool but not frosty ...ha ha

We dont have Traffic lights in Noosa ..roundabouts cus we is Eco friendly ( no leccy required )

Jeff

08-24-2009, 04:50 PM

Not quite on topic, but I happened to see this small boat posted today and thought of this thread:

http://www.powerboatlistings.com/powerimg/t/7758/100_1116.jpg
St. Martin Power Boats Harley Davidson powered 15 (http://www.powerboatlistings.com/view/7758)

mark775

08-24-2009, 10:13 PM

Well, it's an authentic Harley - All those pictures, and in none of them is it running!

Frosty

08-25-2009, 12:26 AM

Yes there is. In one picture a boat is running, there is water coming out of the exhaust , sounds great, press the sound button.

apex1

08-25-2009, 10:23 PM

Chris,
Richard is obviously not an experienced rider of the motorcycle.
Many people ride for years, decades, yet never "get out of first gear", so to speak.
I was reading in shock on the BMW owners site of America, where, so called experts, were talking about "advanced" rider techniques, such a load of crap it makes me wonder how thay have ever survived so far, I guess the Lord looks after the weak......

That was exactly what I expected after getting you a 120.000 € engine for 45.000$ which your customer did not pay!

[QUOTE=Chris Ostlind;294340]Here Richard,

Because you seem to insist that braking while turning is not in the cards,

Chris you are way behind sense!

Braking into a turn is quite another way then braking at the apex. And I was referring to the latter of course.
When you would have the experience to know what braking in a turn means, you would not need to referr to a common website.
And that site is contradicting you! At least when it comes to everyday driving. If you feel happy to drive like Agostini on common roads (and under every days conditions) feel free to do so. But do not tell me what the "average" driver is able to do! And I AM a average driver! Experienced and accident free for 40 years, but I do not fight physics, and I do not play "racetrack" on everyday´s roads.
Your bike stands almost uncontrollabable upright if you brake hard at the apex of a turn and I am sure YOU will not get it "down" again.
What we (or the pro´s, there is a difference, you know), can do on a racetrack (no traffic, race tyres, sufficient space to fall on the dumb face), has absolutely nothing in common with everyday biking.
The very site you quote is absolutely clear on that issue. And I am sure (no offense meant), that not a single US biker has a clue what we are doing on German roads, every day.
So, when you contradict a experienced biker the next time, make sure you know what you are talking.

Landlubber

08-25-2009, 10:31 PM

"That was exactly what I expected after getting you a 120.000 € engine for 45.000$ which your customer did not pay! Or didnt you have the project?
"

Apex, are you referring to the 100 footer project that I was doing in China, if so, I private messahed you a few times explaining my customer was owed a lot of money and it did not come through, what are you talking about here please?

apex1

08-25-2009, 10:43 PM

Landlubber

08-26-2009, 02:41 AM

Apex,

I am sorry to read your bitter comments mate,

Please re read my messages to you, how can you possibly say that I did not pay when I clearly stated that my customer was in serious trouble, long before any supposed deal was made to buy these engines.

I seriously cannot see where I have done anything wrong to you for such comments, but I also appologise profoundly if you do really feel this bad about the engine bit, I had no idea till now that there was any sort of problem.

………………………………………………….
From yourself to me:
03.27.2009 11.16PM
03.27.200903-27-2009, 11:16 PM03-27-2009, 11:16 PM
Hi,

I got a answer, but not the one I wanted. They still fear the IMO regulations. I told them now I want the engines as a bedroom decoration.
You know I want one for my newbuild as well? Unfortunately we do´nt lay the keel before September, that might be to late. Nobody will believe, that the engine was istalled in 2008 already!?
Anyway, focus on your project.
Maybe if I offer a sum, instead of waiting for a quotation, makes life easier.
What does your customer expect? Something in the 140.000$ ballpark I reckon?
Your destination port is Hongkong or Shenzen?

Regards
Richard
……………………………………………………
03.28.2009 11.00AM
[quote=Landlubber]Richard, we are going to build in Jiangmen, near Guangzhou, so I would expect Guangzhou to be the destination port. We too are not starting now till lte this year or early next year, but it is for private use, not commercial, so we should be able to still use it OK.

Thanks mate.

OK, I understand Guangzhou is as fine.
I´m going to make a offer on monday.

Regards
Richard
………………………………………………….
Re: Lugger
03.28.2009 12.02PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Landlubber
Richard,

Just Skyped my mate in Brissy, no money.....he was owed over a million, due to be repaid 3 days ago, there are problems......to say the least.

i will have to hold off, and most likely loose the engine now mate.....we may have to end up using a Chinese copy (if they make one)....I seriously doubt that the Lugger will stay around till we get the cash...this boat is being run on cash....not allowed to touch savings or borrow, that is the rules from day one.

Thanks again, John

Hi John,
wait and see, you know I need one for myself too.
Let them move their a..es
Regards
Richard
BTW In my main business (development) I move the first finger for the first time if my royalty fee completely is on my notary´s trust account!

apex1

08-26-2009, 10:42 AM

Sorry Lubs! Could not see how you would know my biking experience.........
Did not say YOU did´nt pay, just that your client did not.
And yes I did comment a bit bitter, I had to buy both engines at the end. But will use one for myself as mentioned and sure will sell the other.
Richard

Landlubber

08-26-2009, 04:56 PM

Apex,

I do not need to know your biking experience mate, you stated that you cannot brake in a corner, that comment immediately rings bells to me. In my past life I lived in Adelaide, ran a bike shop there selling Honda but also BMW and Triumph, and was a sponsored rider, so hard braking in corners on the track is standard procedure, same as it is on the road unless you are pottering about....many riders never really get into hard riding, I have had some blokes come into my shop with the front tyres washed out from their street antics, yet they do not race, others just wear out the centre tread, and the sides are still shiny after 10,000k.....we never got more than 3000 k from hard street use in those days.

Sorry if I twitched your nose mate, not meant to be personal or nasty, just stating it as it is.

Landlubber

08-26-2009, 05:01 PM

Oh...today, I am one of those that have the sides still shiny after 10,000.......my bikes are far more sedate and so is my desire to meet my maker before time....when we are younger, we rule the roads.....

Chris Ostlind

08-26-2009, 05:36 PM

The center of the argument, Richard, is this: You made some flat-out statements that are patently untrue. Later, now, you wish to further qualify them with additional information. Unfortunately, you have not retracted the original comments and they remain your collected argument, addendum, or not.

I'm happy that you are safe and not banged-up from your input, or the input of another, which would have been well out of your control. It's nice to hear of riders who are free of road rash. But, it does not change the world of riding, just because you'd like to think it does.

The trail-braking technique is used all the time on the street and well after my time as a road racing rider, I continued to ride in that fashion, minus the high speed and drifting corners.

Go out and park yourself on the high side of any decreasing radius corner and watch how the better riders come flowing past your position. This is a corner setup, in which there might be several apex scenarios, OR a steady speed reducing movement through the curve, though the latter is not going to be the quickest.

At each individual apex within the greater curve, there will be braking and acceleration in various combinations until one sets-up for the drive out of the corner.

This isn't at all about whether or not I feel that you know how to ride safely. In fact, I assume that you do. It's about the making of a grossly general blanket statement that is simply not supportable. Since you did not make any specific qualifications, I also do not. All I have to do is prove that the issue is, in fact, taking place... which it is. No further qualifiers are necessary.

I trust that this will put the issue to bed, as it were and please.... Happy Riding to You.

kroberts

08-26-2009, 06:15 PM

I've kept out of this cornering thing until Chris' last post.

I have never really paid much attention to how I ride the bike. I just do. I'm neither the guy who wears out his sidewalls at 3k, nor the guy whose sidewalls are still shiny at 10k. Somewhere in the middle, I guess. My sidewalls get about the same wear for most of the tread, but not so much at the extreme edges. I get lots more than 3k miles out of my tires.

The problem for me, when I get on the bike I just get into a zen mode, at one with the road and watching traffic, and driving. I never remember to check if I brake at or after the apex, I just anticipate the needs as I can and react to changing situations accordingly.

Now, with that decreasing radius statement, I can say for a fact that I brake in that fashion. I just realize that braking AND turning is putting an additional force on the bike, and you have to lean accordingly, and pay attention to the bike and the road.

Braking in a turn puts an additional force both in terms of momentum and a bigger turning force on the front tire, since the fork is reverse-caster and braking causes the bike to want to turn sharper, which would throw you like Richard says. If you're ready for it though, you can brace against that. And I do. Probably not like some of these other rocket pilots, I like to go fast but I don't like to die doing it.

I can definitely see where, if your first time braking in an apex was going super fast, that you would be in big trouble if you did it wrong.