bamboo planks

[adriano]

does anybody have experience in using bamboo strips for strip planking/epoxy
construction? Apart from being eco-friendly and low cost, expecially the "Moso" species seems to have exellent mechanical properties!
Does anybody knows advantages and disadvantages by using solid bamboo planks
in boat strip/epoxy construction?
Thanks in advance for any suggestion.
Adriano

[Hullaby]

You need to completly remove the outer skin as this stuff is like mold release!
However, whatever species you use the fiber density is best right next to that skin....so don't shave off a 1/4 inch trying to get flat strips...in fact, I would go against the natural inclinanation to put the curved side out when stripping. The inside of the culm is much softer and lower fiber density( easier to shape.). You can readily see this by closely viewing the end cut. Narrowplanks would also be good so you do'nt have to shape too much fiber off.
Very important: Bamboo has very little cross grain. You must provide a good cross grain for it. That means a directional glass layer on both sides of the stripping.
Finally Bamboo has a very high strength to weight( pound for pound stronger than steel in tension!) but it's pretty dense. So I think it would be very easy to over spec the core thickness and end up with a very heavy vessel.
Plan on lots of labor:D

[PAR]

Bamboo would make a pretty poor strip plank core material, for several reasons.

[apex1]

Bamboo would make a pretty poor strip plank core material, for several reasons.

That was the nice reply, now comes the truth:
hands off! It is just not possible to use Bamboo in modern boatbuilding methods! (well, except you are willing to spend twice the money and labour you would need for a full carbon Epoxy boat)
When you search the Forum you probably find other opinions on that topic. And probably my final description, why not, too.

Richard

[adriano]

Thanks,
For sure more labor is involved in. Anyhow in my case labor cost is not a big headache.
I am assuming that you get short lengths bomboo planned planks (rectangular shape) since the thikness is decreasing with the height of the culm. In order to avoid too many joints I am thinking that we can laminate two bamboo planks together by the opposite ends (root side versus higher culm part) and by the planned skin side, in order to get more uniformity, then plan it to the desired thikness. I am looking to get laminated final plank dimentions at least of 15/18 mm. high, 30/35 mm wide (cove/convex) and 4 mt long to be joined together to achieve any desired length.
Apart from the labor intensive job, do you think there would be any major technical disadvantages in using such laminated planks as first skin of trip planking combined with a core of two layers red cedar veneer 6 mm. or 3 layers of 3 mm. with light fiber glass woven mats as final layer? Thinking here about 45 ft sail boat hull
I do believe that we can achieve somehow a lighter/stronger boat and cheaper in regards of material by replacing solid wood strips with an eco-friendly material?!
Thanks for any further comments
Adriano

[Hullaby]

Yikes!!
I thought you were talking about something fun and small....Kayak maybe.
Not a good idea. I agree with the others. Bamboo probably doesn't make sense at that size. The glue weight alone with your multiple cores and lams isgonna make it a beast.
And while your labor may be free....Just creating all the bamboo lumber you describe will be more work than building a composite hull..

[apex1]

I do believe that we can achieve somehow a lighter/stronger boat and cheaper in regards of material by replacing solid wood strips with an eco-friendly material?!
Thanks for any further comments
Adriano

Definitely not! Neither cheap, nor eco friendly! And surely not sensible. As I mentioned, search the forum, do some legwork yourself. I elaborated somewhere on cutting off the humps, damping the stuff, pressing it, to get flat, glueing the insides together to get a sort of "sandwich" plank, and so on and on. At the end your eco balance is worse than carbon fibre and your cost is above of that. Do you see any advantage?

Richard

[adriano]

Well,
It sounds like you do not have much direct experienses with this material, nevertheless pls let me say this:
I do agree that such amount of extra job is frightening anybody despite lot of work is being done by existing simple machines for bamboo planks like splitting, planning, shaping etc., but once the labor factor (it doesn't need to be free) is not really a main issue I do not agree further!
Frankly when I was told for the first time about bamboo properties I was thinking of a conoe too. Believe or not, recently when reading a report on special magazine, reporting that a large modern sail yacht has benn successfully manufactured in Italy by using bamboo!, I made up my mind to further inquire on this subject. The way they use it somehow has been kept secrect, this is the key!
For sure I do not agree that bamboo material is not eco-friendly!
It's fast growing fibrous plant available in abundance on earth and supposed to be one of strongest building materials ( at least compared with any solid wood which may be used for epoxy strip planking) I am considering here the giant species which reach 30 mts and whose diamentions and wall thikness is suitable for the specific topic. It has extraordinary mechanical and physico-chemical properties!
Reports say: "THE CELLULOSE FIBERS CAN BE COMPARED WITH THE REINFORCING FIBERS IN AN ADVANCED CARBON/EPOXY COMPOSITE WHEREAS THE SURROUNDING LIGNIN CAN BE COMPARED WITH THE EPOXY MATRIX"
You may believe or not this is up to you!
I do not agree that epoxy laminated materials would make in this case (at least I understand like this)the boat heavier. There is no question that the machanical properties of a laminated material in place of a solid piece are far better and makes it lighter(ther shouldn't be a need to get deeper into the matter!)
By the way before you get a carbon fiber boat more eco-friendly and more cost accessable there is a long way to go! just think about the energy required to achieve the carbon stage! Do not think only about yr efforts on the boat premises!
I am of the opinion that nothing in life is served to you on "a golden plate"I mean with this that everyone has to sqeeze his own brain to achieve a goal/success!
Obviousely some kind of interest should be there to support the final goal which makes a lot of difference.
Personally I still believe that this material could have big potential and is worth to be further taken into consideration.
Hope haven't been boring you too much.
Thanks
Adriano

[Hullaby]

Is there a good, already invented, acronym for " One who posts queries he already feels he has all the answers for and ......"
Ah, nevermind. I'm done with this one.

[adriano]

I do not think it's like that, he rather doesn't give up at the first shot!
Thanks
adriano

[PAR]

Depending on which strip planking method you'd employ, you may gain some of the density disadvantages back, but generally, the material is too dense to be a good choice as a true core in a sandwich composite and has insufficient longitudinal stiffness (compared to other species for it's weight) in a more traditional strip role. If it was the only wood you could get your hands on, you might get favorable results with a Lord method scantling, strip plank build. You could get by with ~50% less core thickness, partly negating the weight penalty, though again, not compared to other species.

Part of the difficulty with bamboo is it's relatively an unknown species and looking up physical properties is difficult, in the traditional sense as it's not a tree, but a weed (actually a grass). Yes, it has some wonderful attributes, but as yet has found limited uses in the marine industry other then cabinets, flooring and trim in yachts.

It may be just a syntax issue, but laminated structures need to be engineered to be lighter then solid limber structures. You're seem to be under the impressions that a laminate is naturally lighter and this couldn't be further from the truth. Typically, a successful laminate combines a light weight core with a fabric sheathing, set in a resin system that closely matches its physical properties (typically elongation). The heavier the core, the more is must offer in the strength and stiffness, to the completed panel or the weight is just a burden the panel must bear, which serves no good.

For most small craft you're going to want strip densities in the 22 to 32 lbs. per cu. ft. range and larger yachts 32 to 46 lbs. per cu. ft. Interestingly enough most that I've read about bamboo compare it to red oak across several categories, but in this regard the density is the real issue and why, there are many alternate core possibilities that are superior.

I think it can be used successfully, but it would need careful engineering or a heavy structure will result.

[adriano]

Hi Par,
Appreciate yr comprehensive comments and for sure from someone who knows the matter better than me!
I may have to mention, to let better understand , that in the country where I have chance to achieve eventually such a “project”, red cedar mainly is available on spot and good quality Epoxy resin with a team of 20 people with over a decade of experience with solid red cedar strip/red cedar veneer and glass woven mat construction. All other high tech materials (for hull construction) are available but imported and at high price. Somehow I have to stick with the traditional wood strip planking/veneer contsruction. So my thought was to replace only the first layer of red cedar strip planks( not for core) both partly on permanent and temporary laminated frames. (sail cruiser)
This not only because of cost factor and environemantal reasons but also because I do not know for how long Red C. will be available there. (some restrictions for woods cutting are already in place) On top of that plenty of bomboo is locally available . Bamboo planks are already on the market but sofar I've seen only in short length.
There are lot of data curried out on bamboo, available even from us -institutions which are very encouraging (may be I am overestimate these?!).
Regarding the lamination I am simply going from the point of view that basicallly you can achieve same or even better mechanical properties with lower volume than the same solid wood you want replace.
The fact that somebody here in Italy has already build a large modern sail yacht with bamboo,
I think my thoughts are not out of this world!?
The key is how to use it in the best suitable way!
Thanks
Adriano

[Luckless]

I'm wondering how bamboo can hold up as thin veneer strips, not structurally strong 'plank' strips as usually found in boat building. Layered in three or four directions in epoxy, kind of like a straight up fiberglass hull, without the fiberglass.

Now, this isn't something you can do alone in a workshop with a few hand tools, but with the correct equipment to process the stuff, you could have a useful and cheap material.


Now, I really don't see how you can call bamboo not eco-friendly compared to other plant products. I'm not sure how yields compare on a per acre at harvest time, but I do know that you have a one or two year growing season for some of the best bamboos, meaning you can keep harvesting the same plot of land year after year, rather than waiting 20-80 years for it to grow again.

Of course, this is assuming it is milled to a usable product near harvest site, rather than shipped as raw bamboo for processing over seas.

[apex1]

adriano It sounds like you do not have much direct experienses with this material,


Be assured mate when it comes to boatbuilding in wood I can compete with your experience. And as a builder I´m always interested in new methods, and know the properties of Bamboo since ages.

However you like to cheat nature, at the end it comes on the table.
Bamboo is NOT as eco friendly as common boatbuilding wood species and not as nice as many like to believe! To get a useable and even quality strip of Bamboo you need a lot of processing. I am not willing to go deeper into that matter here. Do some legwork after removing the pink glasses! Search for the >disadvantages< of Bamboo, not for the well known advantages and you will soon find what I´m talking about. (the inner fibres for example are almost always full of funghi to name just one)

adrianoAll other high tech materials (for hull construction) are available but imported and at high price.
In Italy? where do you live?

So my thought was to replace only the first layer of red cedar strip planks( not for core)

Do you know what the strip plank is meant to be???

The fact that somebody here in Italy has already build a large modern sail yacht with bamboo,
That unfortunately is only half of the truth! The boat you mention was built using Bamboo fibres! Thats a completely different world. And the price of those fibres is about the same as the price of a Carbon Kevlar fabric.
Processing the Bamboo fibres is consuming more energy than producing carbon fibre, so where is it eco friendly?

Is there a good, already invented, acronym for " One who posts queries he already feels he has all the answers for and ......"
Ah, nevermind. I'm done with this one.

Dunno, but what about CUTY ??? Completely Unwilling To Yield

Richard

[Luckless]

I would like to hear the stats on the energy costs in producing carbon fibers vs bamboo fibers. Where are your sources for this?

[apex1]

I would like to hear the stats on the energy costs in producing carbon fibers vs bamboo fibers. Where are your sources for this?

There are no such statistics as far as I know. Just go through the steps of production and you do´nt need them.

[Luckless]

There are no such statistics as far as I know. Just go through the steps of production and you do´nt need them.

All entries I can find for carbon fiber production uses multiple high temperature cooking stages. Bamboo fiber can be done with a fairly minor mechanical process followed by chemical treatments in reusable baths, and then fairly simple pressings.

[apex1]

All entries I can find for carbon fiber production uses multiple high temperature cooking stages. Bamboo fiber can be done with a fairly minor mechanical process followed by chemical treatments in reusable baths, and then fairly simple pressings.

Ja, you are right. And the chemicals are eco friendly and produced by some fresh water and wind???

[PAR]

From a physical properties view point bamboo is a crap shoot, unless you can control and harvest the stock, selectively machine and mill it into serviceable stuff, then apply what ever technology you like towards its application in a marine environment.

The problem is the simple physical fact that you can have as much as 100% difference in strength across the culm, plus age and how the material is cut can dramatically affect the physical properties of the material. Without serious controls in place, the best you can ask is it's current usages, which are as a "facing" material.

This coupled with the fact there are over 1,500 different botanical species of bamboo and that it's generally cultivated in areas of the world well known to be less then forthcoming in quality control or honesty in packaging, leaves a fairly dim light cast on bamboo in the foreseeable future.

[adriano]

Luckness,
In communications like this there is a lot of kind missunderstanding.
I never been talking about bamboo fibers but ruther about bamboo planks if ever possible to use, that's all about.
Thanks

[PAR]

I've been talking about bamboo as lumber, not as filler or reinforcement material.

[apex1]

I've been talking about bamboo as lumber, not as filler or reinforcement material.

Me too, and I have described the process to make it a useable plank in another thread some time ago. The result: leave it...............

Adriano,
Luckness,
In communications like this there is a lot of kind missunderstanding.
I have´nt seen a single one! Only the impression that you did not like contradictive results or arguments. Do not ask pro´s when you do´nt like professional answers.

[adriano]

Me too, and I have described the process to make it a useable plank in another thread some time ago. The result: leave it...............

Adriano,

I have´nt seen a single one! Only the impression that you did not like contradictive results or arguments. Do not ask pro´s when you do´nt like professional answers.

Very sorry to give you that impression, may be the missunderstandings, If any, are from my side, I am not a professional like you (as you mentioned in prior forum ?!)
Never been trying to teach anything to anybody but just asked simple questions and " try "to explaining why, hoping to get some opinions, which I am keeping.
I do not think, otherwise, you expect anybody to take as "gold" straight away
whatever is being written here, most of the members are unknown and difficult to figure out their background?! So I take their opinions /suggestions for which I am thankful and continue to search. I do not know what is wrong with this!
All the best
I am done

[apex1]

[QUOTE]I am not a professional like you (as you mentioned in prior forum ?!)
Do´nt understand that??


I do not think, otherwise, you expect anybody to take as "gold" straight away whatever is being written here,


Oh no, for sure not.

I´ll give you just another comment on Bamboo to make some points clear:


Bamboo is never a good idea! And the reason is easy to understand. The strongest fibers Bamboo has just under the outer hard skin, but you have to flatten out the round shape and get rid of the nodes. You cut the surface, the reverse side (both very difficult and expensive, due to the shape), then you steam the batten and flatten it by high pressure (50 tonnes are sufficient), and voila... you have a nice, environmental friendly ? and cheap ? material. Strong too (if you are able to skin the surface not deeper than 0,5 mm, but remove all nodes, and the weak and funghi infested inside)! And it will spring back a bit, so you have to laminate two battens back to back anyway! THEN you have a real strong plank, for twice the price of finest Teak. A good idea!?

Regards
Richard

[micheleoda]

i plan to do a 7 meter sportboat with 3 layers (3mm each) 0°/+45/-45°
of bamboo slices, plus bi-axis fiberglass (inside), + lamination of thin 0.6mm outiside top + mat 400gr
undervaccum, glue by epoxy whith bambou microfiber
i do a trailer boat, So i want a strong and light boat (foam and fiber omegas with one esthetic bamboo UD on top of them)
deck with balsa sandwich/lamination of bamboo veneer
with bamboo or corck for deck, mast and boom with bamboo and fiberglas
UD +45/-45°.

Best regards
MC

[apex1]

Yes do that!
Good luck...........................

[ancient kayaker]

Bamboo is an excellent structural material that comes as a tube. Sure it's a little lumpy but it has good strength/weight ratio, as is, and is available in a wide range of sizes. It is not easy to cut or bend but it can be done, needs some skill but not much equipment. And that's about it. It's great for stakes, scaffolding and outdoor furniture, and has been made into skin-on-frame boats.

Trying to make a plank out of it is just being silly, or maybe trying to prove a point, or some other doomed thing. Whatever you try to do with it, the further you go from its natural condition the harder the task will become and the less useful the product is likely to be. Unlike timber, the properties of bamboo change rapidly and continually as you penetrate the surface. So you can't make it into ply for a start and whatever else you do with it is going to take a heap of machinery and chemicals.

[PAR]

Actually, you can make planks from bamboo folks. As I mentioned there are a lot of versions of bamboo, some are huge and easily cut into planks.

[adriano]

Thanks
I appreciate all further notes on Bamboo.
Indeed I was starting the whole issue based on the fact first that fairly accetable thickness are available from the so called Giant species like Moso etc. and then deal with next step or whatever problem is to be faced.
Adriano

[PAR]

Again as a core, it offers little benefit in epoxy strip plank construction. As a veneer it has possibilities.

[adriano]

Par,
I am little unclear when you mention bamboo veneer.
Do you mean to be used approx 45°?
as narrow planks of 3 or 6 mm.?
Is it possible to get such thinkness (by machine) out of bamboo? I know veneer only the traditional way from big round logs.
Thanks for yr further explanation
Adriano

[apex1]

Again as a core, it offers little benefit in epoxy strip plank construction. As a veneer it has possibilities.

Paul I do´nt like to contradict you, but please would you tell me a single one advantage a Bamboo veneer could have over a quality wooden veneer? Just one!

[micheleoda]

Actually i live in France and i have a suplier to import and sliced, any size, any lenght , any thickness and larger.
I have diferent suplier's in europe, china and thailand for veneer to 0.6mm to 5mm. About Bamboo, in 1979 we built a 85 ft chineese junk in Canton and bring back to France by The "good hope", so i use bamboo since because i work in Asia (Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, china, phillipines, japan, malaysia and indonesia. For bamboo, we need to know the tricks, now we can use, veneer and thin planks for laminate on traditional way.
I dont beleive about strip plancking
but i'm at 400% for lamination, and epoxy

see bamboo laminate bow, strong and nervous, i like boats like that...:rolleyes:

[micheleoda]

www.abamboo.com
about advantage 4mm thick: 7.2$ m2
or 15mm large, 1mm thick, lenght 2m20: 40$ the 100 pieces
i plan to use 3mm thick about advantage, it's a perfect Uni directional wood
if we laminate 0/+45/-45, we something technical, modern, green, not to expensive and excelent for marketing

And about wood, i'm a marine carpenter, and i prefer to use bamboo than cut wood and give money for the F'''''''' Birman military or Cambodgian for their teck wood, if we buy bamboo, we give work to small villages do not have nothing for live except cut wood illegaly or keep protect animals for sell to stupid foreigner's

[apex1]

And about wood, i'm a marine carpenter, and i prefer to use bamboo than cut wood and give money for the F'''''''' Birman military or Cambodgian for their teck wood, if we buy bamboo, we give work to small villages do not have nothing for live except cut wood illegaly or keep protect animals for sell to stupid foreigner's

Yes do that!!! And call Peking a small village!!!
Obviously you know what you´re talking.

[micheleoda]

i dont know pekin but i work in shanguai, and i dont see so much of bamboo plantation around indeed.., and so on
somebody need informations about bamboo and if i'm not too stupid,
it is a forum;
forum is made for friendly relationship.
I'm new on site but you look like to be very polemic on diferent post;
so, or you try to up the discussion or i dont reply you anymore
if you need to be "agressive" for existing (feel alive) it's your problem
but go alone,i dont want to loose time with complexed people
i dont think that you give adriano have any interresting infos and your sens of humor is very limit: Mr AMPEX1

Best regards
MC

[apex1]

Well, Mr. marine carpenter you should read a thread before contributing, and especially before contradicting in a offensive way! You would notice how and when I provided substantial information on adrianos questions.
Impressive to see how you differentiate between Chinese and Burmese Dictators, really! But more impressive to see that a shipwright (I assume we should understand "marine carpenter" that way), has absolutely no idea which materials we use in cold moulded boatbuilding! And even more impressive that a shipwright does "not believe" in strip planking. But he feels fine using Bamboo "microfibres" (there is no such material on the market) and Epoxy.
I tell you what:

you are neither a shipwright, nor have you ever worked with any of the material you mentioned!

[ancient kayaker]

Where in France is Shanguai? I thought it was a Chinese orchestra.

[apex1]

Where in France is Shanguai? I thought it was a Chinese orchestra.

Was that the "basement" branch of the "Pasadena roof orchestra" Terry?

[micheleoda]

NO PROBLEM
now we are on chinese orchestra,
so, good luck to adriano on this forum, i hope that he find that he want
for the rest, i've many job to do for my shipyard
no time to talk music..
MC

[apex1]

Michel
I guess he will not find what he wants! He wants a experts opinion to back up his own prejudice. He did not find that by now, and yours was´nt a experts one.

[Invert]

I have a question. As teak is rather expensive, what is the possibility of decking with bamboo? From what I can gather, they sell bamboo flooring for about $5-7 sq.ft. which is generally cheaper than pine or oak. Suppose I just wanted it for its looks, meaning it provides no structural integrity. Would somebody recommend something like this? Or is teak still the way to go?

[Luckless]

I have a question. As teak is rather expensive, what is the possibility of decking with bamboo? From what I can gather, they sell bamboo flooring for about $5-7 sq.ft. which is generally cheaper than pine or oak. Suppose I just wanted it for its looks, meaning it provides no structural integrity. Would somebody recommend something like this? Or is teak still the way to go?

I haven't looked too closely at what is on the market currently, but I know the cheapest bamboo flooring is still a laminate with a wood fiber based bottom layer, which would be completely useless on a boat. One small pin prick in your sealant, and it would swell and split apart.

If you can find thin flooring that is solid bamboo for that price, then I don't see why it wouldn't be an option as a cover layer over plywood. The only thing I would worry about there is how to actually attach it securely.

[kroberts]

Invert,

On top of your initial cost of the flooring, add to it the cost of installation and factor in the fact that it won't last nearly as long, so you'll have to replace it sooner.

No matter what flooring you use, figure alongside the cost all of its benefits, how long it lasts, how appropriate it is for the purpose and how many times you'll need to replace something "cheaper" before you get the same life span.

[Ilan Voyager]

Par and Apex are right. As an old ex-naval carpenter (I began in 1970...) used to almost all the laminated woods systems, with any imaginable kind of glue and fibers common and exotic, I have now a little experience of the subject using wood in boats from 2 meters to 52 meters, from 4 knots to 55 knots.

And as I am also naval engineer, I can say that Par is totally right when he affirms that bamboo is too heavy as core. Plus the problem of the knots which are a solution of continuity when the bamboo is splitted.

I do love Bamboo, excellent material for building houses (look that in Colombia architects are doing with this material), furniture (split or not), pipes and other stuff. You can build excellent houses and light structures in bamboo and I have tried to promote its use and cultivation in Quintana Roo. The strong part is the the very outer shell, or best said the surface skin and structurally it works marvelously as a pipe.

It's a grass so it contains a lot of sugar. It must stay a long time in water to drain these sugars, dried slowly and treated because it rots so easily and catches a lot of bugs. The Japanese even smoke it. There is a very simple system to treat it with borates, but these salts are not good friends with glues...

I have also used the strips and floors made with bamboo, very nice in a house. In a dry house with no bugs. Or you have to buy bamboo heavily treated with some products I wouldn't have near me.

Simply, whatever its qualities, bamboo is not a material for boats.

[rasorinc]

I tried to get info on the adhesive used from several suppliers of solid bamboo planks(no ply-just like a cutting board) without success. Nobody could tell me anything so I threw that idea out the window.

[Invert]

Well, that clears my concerns. I just wanted to know if it was a good idea or not. General consensus: Not a good idea.

Thanks!

(now I know why they use teak)