Offer: true go anywhere Trawler to build "side by side"

[apex1]

As many of you know, I am in the final concept phase for my own (ultimate?) passagemaker.
The vessel will be of a rugged, commercial appearence and by no means a "fashionable" boat. All systems will be of commercial grade and at least double redundant (except for the engine there´s only one, a "real" one). My NA just informed me that the hull was originally designed for twin engines, then converted for me to single. Means twin is a option.

Target figures are:
LOA 27,5 m
LWL 25.5 m
BWL 5.6 m
Draught 2.2 m
Range 5.500 nm @ 11.2 kn
Endurance 90 days
Cruising 11.5 kn
Max. 14 kn.

The boat will be build in either Steel/Al or Al/Al (final decision is not made yet). Both options are designed, and cost is almost the same anyway. Ice Class is the question. Not for the high lat. only, but having also floating containers in mind.

Yes, you are right. The wood / Epoxy man is going metal!?! Yahh, for a reason, Wood is not as good on icebreaking or hammering on a reef for hours, as metal. And it happens, no matter how careful or skilled we are. I know from experience. So, whats a perfect choice for a holiday cruise in the Med. must not be the best choice for 20 years of circumnavigating (I hope i have 20 left).

Now, before I start boring the audience, I thought about building a second vessel "side by side", that would save about 12-15% of cost. A wide range of customization of the accommodation is still possible for the second vessel.

I offer anyone here, interested in a custom newbuild to get his one built at the same time, same yard, same cost. We will end up at about 2 million each, due to the fact, that there is no profit, broker or overhead cost. Euro of course. Thats about half the common market price, or about the price of a tiny 64ft plastic boat from a well known US company, not ice (container) capable of course, plastic.

The vessels will be build under my fulltime supervision and survey, classed +100 A5, E2, to IACS. Build will be fully insured against yards bancrupcy, payments will be handled through escrow account of a Swiss notary of your choice.
Estimated building time is 12 month, laying keels is possible within 3-4 month from now.

Yes I will post plans and pictures, but not before construction is underway. My avatar does NOT show any similarity!

Further terms and conditions as personal requests in a private conversation please. Just send me a mail (click my name).

Kindest regards
Richard

So then, lookup your wallet or invite Granny for a night at the Bronx...........:cool:

[Ad Hoc]

Apex

If you're 'thinking' about ice, then Aluminium is the winner...temperature has no effect on the notch toughness (not in the temp range you'll be operating at!), unlike steel. Also ally doesn't rust, so very low maintenance too, not to mention saving weight which can be offset in with either reduced powering, or more payload.

Quite a 'beamy' boat for its length, so no doubt plenty of room for accommodation and general outfitting. But may well affect your powering and roll motions beyond your expectations, but all depends upon the hull shape to an extent and the CoG's?

Twin engine would be better, you then have redundancy, which is essential if your endurance/range is 5500nm.

If you need a second opinion on the design/construction just ask.

Nice project, good luck :)

[apex1]

Thank you John,

but do you really call that beamy?

[Ad Hoc]

Only in the sense that for motions and powering, it is rather low L/B ratio. It is understable since i assume the NA is constrained by length (price) so increases the beam to fit more outfit/accommodation space etc.....this is why many small motor yachts have low L/B ratios too...keep the length short to save money, or so is the idea. But Increasing the length, keeping everything else the same doesn't really add that much..as it is just 'structure'.

It does also depend on the hull shape and where the CoG is which also effects the motions such as roll period....like all things in design too many disciplines cross over into others, so just check.

If you can increase the length, but keeping everything else the same, it would be preferable. Assuming she meets the stability criterion too.

Assume you're going to tank test the hull??

[apex1]

I went already from 24,5 to above 27m leaving all accommodation untouched, and it may happen I go a bit further that way, it´ll cost not much more than another Radar to give her another meter. But my goal was downsizing to get rid of crew and not to maintain a surface as large as a soccer stadium.
And believe me, it is not easy to design your own boat when you know too much! A amateur is much easier underway, he has a dream or a wishlist and the rest is not his problem. I am pregnant with this boat in my third year now.

To the steel or alu question, the boat is not a icebreaker, just icegoing. I do´nt plan to visit the poles on own keel. And I made my tickets on icebreakers in the Baltic, they were of steel. But I am completely open, when I find a "Partner" as mentioned above we can discuss that freely.

John
I do´nt agree on the double engine issue. The main reason for failure is fuel related, that effects both engines (not mine, I use fuel polishing). The second is prop related (ropes or nets in prop), there the single prop is much better to protect than a twin prop installation. The same is valid for ice protection. And I do´nt fear engine failure, a perfect serviced, beefy marine diesel is hard to kill. You know...

The present hull is already tank tested (Wageningen).

Regards
Richard

[dskira]

This is a real good price. Not that 2 millions Euros is not a lot of money, but for what you discrive, this price is really good, no doubt about that.
I know exatly what 2 millions Euros can offer you here on production boat, not much in reality.
I know here some horror show floating looking like a melting wedding cake priced over 2 millions euro, with all the little gadget you can find on earth.
Tided to the marina for ever.
Also some plastic passagemakers with the help of expensive marketing are selling for that price and up here, even if they are built in China. Go figure, or China is expensive (wal-Mart think the contrary) or the customer is taken for a ride.
Your proposition is real good, price wise, and surely quality.
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

I realise that it is just ice going, not an ice breaker. But unless you use good quality steel, i would recommend ally, always. By good quality steel I'm refer to EH36 or similar. Standard Grade A is not suitable. Despite what is often said about grade A and its ice credentials. Even the new to be released LR winteriastion rules don't really go far enough, when put into context of failures that have occurred owing to poor notch toughness in low temperatures.

Yes, designing your own boat is never easy when you know a bit more than you should. You do need someone who will take an objective look and ensure that the SOR is fixed before going further...otherwise you'll end up with a huge bill and endless over runs. Personal projects become just that, very personal, not a business contract!

If you're happy with single engine, despite the points i made, then debate closed.

[apex1]

This is a real good price. Not that 2 millions Euros is not a lot of money, but for what you discrive, this price is really good, no doubt about that.
I know exatly what 2 millions Euros can offer you here on production boat, not much in reality.
I know here some horror show floating looking like a melting wedding cake priced over 2 millions euro, with all the little gadget you can find on earth.
Tided to the marina for ever.
Also some plastic passagemakers with the help of expensive marketing are selling for that price and up here, even if they are built in China. Go figure, or China is expensive (wal-Mart think the contrary) or the customer is taken for a ride.

Well, the company you mean offers a 64´boat at exactly 2mio€ !!! Thats much less than half the boat I build!and plastic!

Your proposition is real good, price wise, and surely quality.
Daniel

Thank you for your positive reply Daniel.

[QUOTE=Ad Hoc;293358]
I realise that it is just ice going, not an ice breaker. But unless you use good quality steel, i would recommend ally, always. By good quality steel I'm refer to EH36 or similar. Standard Grade A is not suitable. Despite what is often said about grade A and its ice credentials. Even the new to be released LR winteriastion rules don't really go far enough, when put into context of failures that have occurred owing to poor notch toughness in low temperatures.


Yes John I agree, and I am not against Al, but fact is that my yard is much better in steel than Al Alloy´s. On the super that might be ok, but for the hulls we have to engage additional GL certified Al welders and I would like to make such effort only when we build two of them. (better more?)

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

As is often the case, what you want and what you can can get, are two different things. This is all part of the compromises one must make and understand when designing/building. If you're happy with this compromise and understand the limitations (if any), again, no further debate required.

[apex1]

Well John, as mentioned earlier I am still open and much depends on the further discussions with a building "Partner"

To the single or twin engine question let me say, the boat will go well over 13kn due to the hefty 500kw engine. Lugger 23ltr. 1450 rpm or Mitsubishi 25ltr. 1350rpm, both 6cyl. and 500kw. Yes I know..............................
But with my philosophy I was right in the past decades and I will not change anything.
For seakeeping qualities I prefer full displacement boats, so I am limited in speed. A common yacht that size would have about 2x 250 hp and would be fine with that. But almost 85% of the time only 150 horses will work, the rest produces ineffieciency and heat. Since more than 20 years Im a advocat of CPP installations and I have seen waht is possible with them.
In this case I can turn a rather large wheel at about 450rpm full throttle, thats 190 at idle, thats quiet and smooth. With the CPP I can run the engine all week long at a tad above idle without doing any harm or being out of efficient consumption range (thats impossible with a gearbox fixed prop as you know). When in a hurry (escape a weather front, or go with a high pressure system) I have allways the power I need. When we go in ice we need the power anyway. Being underpowered in drift ice is not a good situation. (and underpowered vessels do´nt get Ice classed)
Thoughts?

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

If you have a set of RAOs for your boat from the tank test, that will go a long way to ascertaining the seakeeping and what your criteria for "seakeeping" actually is too. But, it depends upon the spectrum used for the RAOs.

[apex1]

No, I meant thoughts on the engine / drivetrain.


Richard
If you have a set of RAOs for your boat from the tank test, that will go a long way to ascertaining the seakeeping and what your criteria for "seakeeping" actually is too. But, it depends upon the spectrum used for the RAOs.

Of course, but you know we cannot make a real "cover all" tank test setup (testing another bulbous bow for example), just because RAO for the Baltic is nothing in the south Pacific. And a "true go anywhere" boat goes........................???
Right;)

[dskira]

LWL 25.5 m
BWL 5.6 m

I think by having a ratio beam of 4.55 will make a very efficient hull. Most of the other "passagemaker" have 3 to 3.8 which give a good bathroom inside but not a very good boat.
As for the bulbous bow, I have not a good opinion of it on vessel smaller that a tanker.
They foul the anchor chain, I am not sure they reduce pitching, since very often they have to be ballasted to compensate the addition of buyancy, and they are in and out of the water by rough sea.
They are efficient at speed of 0.8 to 0.9, and so their spectrum of real efficiency is small.
About ballast, since the very high range of the vessel, do you intent to put compensating salt water tank?
For the construction I will be going for good steel. Steel in the only material which can be roughfly repared or patched in any port in the world. You always find a mechanic with a welding machine of some sort, and they love to weld!
I will never be completly safe on a aluminum boat which has to operate in a large spectrum of temperature, and has to be able to hit a floating container at let say 7 knots. And with aluminum, the emergency repair, I am not sure. The electrolysis problem, even if now is well understood, remain a problem down the life of the boat, if maintenance is not done first class, mostly in the engine room, and on hidden place of the bilge.
As for the engine, Mitsubishi in a heart beat. Again can be repaired in any port. Lugger, and that I can be wrong, seams to marinize propulsion engine, althought their generators are the best in the world.
Do you think to have tube welded under the deck to have the hot water running, keeping the formation of ice at a minimum on deck in case a customer decide to explore the cold area, or just cruise year round in Maine? To be able to use a vessel like that year round must be a treat.
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

I wont get into the ally v steel debate, as it shall take over the thread. But suffice to say, aluminium's notch toughness is unaffected by temperature whereas steel is very much affected, very poor characteristics indeed in low temperatures. More evidence on this than you can shake a stick at...hence wont go into details, unless requested.

Interesting point about the ballast tanks....worth taking note Richard. As for the b.bows, these are usually effective in the .25~.55Fn range, roughly. But so many caveats....so it is in my opinion more a matter of personal choice. Since unless you're running at the exact speed for some 90% of the time, is it worth it?

I think the L/B ratio is too low to be a good sea kindly boat at speed....at slow speeds she'll just wallow, but if the CoG is located favorably, then she could be nice and tender.

Don't know enough about those engines dskira to really make much of a comment I'm afraid. But it all depends upon the budget. Some 30%-ish of the capitol shall be for engines alone....so how much bang can you get for your buck?!

[apex1]

[QUOTE]I think by having a ratio beam of 4.55 will make a very efficient hull. Most of the other "passagemaker" have 3 to 3.8 which give a good bathroom inside but not a very good boat.

Right, we are in the ballpark of a slender hull.

As for the bulbous bow, I have not a good opinion of it on vessel smaller that a tanker.
Not me either, but my building "Partner" may have another opinion, and both variants are tank tested.

About ballast, since the very high range of the vessel, do you intent to put compensating salt water tank?

No, I run a small watermaker (coupled) to compensate. So a long trip starts with empty water tanks!?! (there is a second watermaker, genny coupled and a few cups of water in the tanks of course);)

For the construction I will be going for good steel. Steel in the only material which can be roughfly repared or patched in any port in the world. You always find a mechanic with a welding machine of some sort, and they love to weld! You are right when we look at it as a average boater does.
But I have a complete workshop aboard (my Partner might not), including welding gear, a lathe, table drill etc. etc. I give up two guest staterooms for that. (but I know what it is worth to have your own repair yard under a deck hatch and a 2 tonnes crane when in rarotonga)

To the steel vs Al issue: I do´nt fear Al, in fact it IS the superior material, but would never recommend a Al vessel when it has to be left unmanned in a marina! All my boats (except my first) have been manned 24/7 all year round.
The Palmer Johnson built "TIME" has just shown what can happen when you have stray currents in a marina (the hull was almost completely destroyed), but a dumb owner has stupid crew, so this could happen even on a manned boat.

As for the engine, Mitsubishi in a heart beat. Again can be repaired in any port. Lugger, and that I can be wrong, seams to marinize propulsion engine, althought their generators are the best in the world.

The big Lugger is a good, reliable engine (based on a thousand years old Komatsu), the Mitsubishi I just do´nt know as good as the Lugger but know it´s reputation, and thats brilliant (in the commercial field, what else). On the Northern lights I disagree, they are pigs! Reliable but pigs.

Do you think to have tube welded under the deck to have the hot water running, keeping the formation of ice at a minimum on deck in case a customer decide to explore the cold area, or just cruise year round in Maine? To be able to use a vessel like that year round must be a treat.
No, high pressurized seawater is a sufficient tool for deicing. (and removing paint in the same go) But this is a yacht, not meant to go to high latitudes in winter! And it is MY decision to go higher latitudes and see arctic regions, Maine is not on the schedule.
I do´nt know naturally what a possible building partner will have in mind, my yachts have been operated all year round. And this one will definitely be my home on the water and will be operated all year round, and worldwide again.

Thank you for your input Daniel.
Richard


[QUOTE=mark775;293695]No NA here, as you likely know but speaking from experience. Twins actually do better in the kind of ice I know because you can better jockey/take a slightly better angle at it.

In your conditions that will be right and sounds sensible but that does not fit my experience, and I made my commercial tickets on Baltic Icebreakers only. We did well with single engines.

but that damned hard, dirty river ice getting windblown into floes is a bugger.

In the Baltic you have always ice in the prop when you do´nt install proper equipment to avoid. (there is quite often nearly no salt in the ice)

Avoid Anchorage and Greenland, and such, in January and a single is better for everything else in the world. HP is good.
As mentioned above it´s a yacht! High lats in winter are not recommended.
I didn't know that about the steel-in-cold thing - we have got more crap cobbled together out of who-knows-what steel here and people successfully trust their lives to it every winter. Maybe it succeeds because the part that makes impact is warmed by the water. Uneasy now but still ignorant enough to go with a lifetime of experience with steel beating the crap out of ice - I vote steel.
The fact that all Icebreakers are steel is simple to understand, it is "sufficient" therefore cheaper, and of course it has a harder surface, ice can be sharp as a knife cutting deep into Aluminium. But when you know how a Icebreaker is operated, you´ll understand both materials are possible.

I wish I had two mil.

Well, I could imagine having you as a building partner could be fun, so find the next lottery shop!

Richard

[apex1]

I wont get into the ally v steel debate, as it shall take over the thread.
Thanks..............

aluminium's notch toughness is unaffected by temperature
True but it is already below steel.

Interesting point about the ballast tanks....worth taking note Richard.
I do since 3 decades, solution described above (I never had to bunker "Rotterdam water" and never have a problem to trim my vessel)

Since unless you're running at the exact speed for some 90% of the time, is it worth it?

I was living on board my last boat for 9 consecutive years. After nine years of continuous cruising, going three times round, and clocking 112000 nautical miles, I found out that I had done a mere average speed of just 9.17kn. On a vessel capable of 17.4kn! We just calculated engine hrs. vs mileage. Less than 0.5% of the voyage was in canals or other speed restricted areas and less than 1% of the time we had really adverse weather conditions.
Despite the fact that I was at the helm for about 40% of the voyages and therefore had a first hand "knowledge" of our speeds, I would have guessed we made a average of above 11kn before our calculation was done! So, even if you know you made several poor 24hr runs you can have the impression of being relatively fast over a long leg.
For that reason a 12% gain in efficiency still attracts me when thinking about a bulbuos bow. (that was the result of a tank test)

Some 30%-ish of the capitol shall be for engines alone....so how much bang can you get for your buck?!

Much BANG John, very much. And I get the engine faaaaar cheaper.

[dskira]

It's true that I have tendency to comment where I am comfortable with the material, and I don't know enough of the progress made of aluminum and the latest progress of aluminum construction. I have a "thing" for steel, I am comfortable with, no secret quite simple.
Of topic, I saw at the maritime museum in Bath Maine an interresting design by Starling Burgess for a fast destroyer made of aluminum.
Just to have in my mind a idea of the vessel, do you have allready a desision made about the horizontal distribution? will be a three decker or a two decker with raised pilothouse? I compt the lower deck on top of the bilge the first deck. Perhaps it is early, but it will give an idea.
You comment about the very complete workshop inboard, so your intention is to have quite a powerfull genset, and perhaps a small one for the night? Do you think to have all the engines with the exhaust dry, or you favor the wet exhaust.
As for the cooling, do you consider a box cooling, if the vessel is in steel, or a built in keel cooling?
And now an other question, please nobody blast me for this one: Do you intent to put some kind of sails, for help in case of engine failure, if you have to hove to, or keeping the vessel from turning around the mooring?
Daniel

[apex1]

[QUOTE]Just to have in my mind a idea of the vessel, do you have allready a desision made about the horizontal distribution?
Its not early to talk about that. It is a three deck vessel (the third is wheelhouse only) Maybe I will post a picture next week.
You comment about the very complete workshop inboard, so your intention is to have quite a powerfull genset, and perhaps a small one for the night?
No, the gensets are quite small, I am planning a "battery" ship not the typical "generator" ship. No night genny! Workshop has a separate, cheap, crappy chinese diesel gen of 12kva for real heavy loads (two in fact), they cost less than the paint on a good genny and last only some 750 hrs. but that maybe ten years??? And if they fail, they fail, not worth a single thought, just loosen the bolts, heave them out and dump them (leave it at the pier overnight in the "right" port).
At anchor, AC is off during the night (I am not used with having a sniff all year round), cold room is off during the night (in fact there is just one tiny fridge in the galley, but a walk in fridge / freezer room with a vacuum panelling between foam sheets. That holds -18°C for 24hrs min. without "refuelling" at 28° ambient temp. Read: the vac panels are paid within three month by saving the fuel.
Lighting is LED throughout the vessel, wiring is a bus system. (two)
Do you think to have all the engines with the exhaust dry, or you favor the wet exhaust.
Wet! Only amateurs fear to have seawater inside the ship. And amateurs do´nt know how difficult it is to make a proper dry stack setup. On top of that, a dry stack engine room is a real hell in tropical temp.s. All secondary cooling cycles like AC compressors, hydraulics have to be raw water cooled too, to be efficient. (saves fuel again)
And now an other question, please nobody blast me for this one: Do you intent to put some kind of sails, for help in case of engine failure, if you have to hove to, or keeping the vessel from turning around the mooring?
No, no sails. I would like some steadying sails (and a "get home rig"), but that is not possible on the planned vessel. (again: my avatar has nothing in common with the vessel planned)
To engine failure: as mentioned above, the main issue is fuel related, have a clever fuel polishing and be paranoid on filters (here its both). The second reason of failure is a fouled prop. Icegoing vessels have protected props (single), they are unlikely to fail. And if you catch a net in the Antarctic, go diving with a good dry suit (better to have it aboard), or take it with dignity that we all have to face our last moment sooner or later. We are going to sea, some risks remain, we just must not search for them.

Richard

here a reply on a mail I got today bringing the bow question and the engine CPP issue up. The latter was called good but expensive....

good solution yes, expensive NO. In fact its cheaper than a comparable quality twin engine setup with fixed prop / gearboxes. Only drawback is, you have to be able to manage a single prop ship! Joe sixpack is unable to manage even a twin prop boat, he needs bow AND sternthrusters, and then calls his insurance twice a year though. I never had a thruster on both my Museum ships or my yachts, I know thrusters only from my production boats. (and dont need them)
This boat will be the first to have a bow thruster, due to the high windage at the front section.
As I mentioned, the hull was tank tested in Wageningen but there are some variables one cannot test. How about slamming, or how will pitch be decreased, increased? We both know, there a several points we only find the answer in true life operation (yeah if I spend another 40.000€ I will get closer results). The 12% gain of course attracts me, on the other hand I get a better ice performance without the bulb and save money and complexity in building. I once lost a boat halfway between Mallorca and Bonifacio strait, hitting something (still dont know what), so I know why I go for a ice strengthened hull. And I am willing to sacrifice everything on a yacht except a true engine ROOM with inboard access, a CPP, a real wheelhouse with 360° view, and a ice hull.

Richard

[dskira]

About general shape, perhaps you mentioned it allready and missed the post, it will be hard chine or round bilge, if round bilge do you have in mind a cruiser stern or a transom?
You mentioned one prop is more esy to protect, if you go for a round bilge do you intent to have reverse curve built down and a hull plating fairing to the prop?
About engine failure, I think a low speed engine large displacement is less prone to fail due to fuel quality than a high speed small displacement.
it is true that a good engine do not fail by itself just for the sake of failing, it is the anciliaries and the fuel make it fail.
You are a airplane pilot as you mentioned, so you know how to rely on one engine, and how to take care of it with great caring. Up there an engine failure is not a option.
but a walk in fridge / freezer room with a vacuum panelling between foam sheets. That holds -18°C for 24hrs min. without "refuelling" at 28° ambient temp. Read: the vac panels are paid within three month by saving the fuel.

I didn't know this technologie. Sounds very great.
due to the high windage at the front section
Do I detect a a high flared bow like a Norvegian Research vessel?
I will wait for the picture, I am just making wild guess.
Daniel

[apex1]

[QUOTE]About general shape, perhaps you mentioned it allready and missed the post, it will be hard chine or round bilge, if round bilge do you have in mind a cruiser stern or a transom?
You will see soon, I`ll post some sketches. Transom
You are a airplane pilot as you mentioned, so you know how to rely on one engine, and how to take care of it with great love and caring;)
Was Daniel, I did not renew my annuals last year!
Do I detect a a high flared bow like a Norvegian Research vessel?
I will wait for the picture, I am just making wild guess.
You may look as dumb as some, but you are not as stupid as many.:D
I didn't know this technologie. Sounds very great.
You know that the best insulation is provided by a vacuum. Now there is a German company making vac. panels for the construction market. I protect the panels against intrusion, abrasion by covering both sides with a common PU foam of some 8cm. The panel itself is just 2,5cm. The overall K value is unbelievable high (do´nt have the figure at hand).
edit: here we are (just for the vac panel)
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt275/apex1/Vac-panel-20.png

Richard
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt275/apex1/linievogel.gif

[TeddyDiver]

Only amateurs fear to have seawater inside the ship. And amateurs do´nt know how difficult it is to make a proper dry stack setup.
:eek: Up here it's just the opposite.. only some amateurs having wet exhaust.. (rarely in some southmade boats) ;) And a bit of warm inside is allways wellcomed here.. also during summer.. right now it's 5C outside, winter and king crab season coming you know..

[apex1]

:eek: Up here it's just the opposite.. only some amateurs having wet exhaust.. (rarely in some southmade boats) ;) And a bit of warm inside is allways wellcomed here.. also during summer.. right now it's 5C outside, winter and king crab season coming you know..

Ja Teddy, and I said "fear seawater" did´nt say all amateurs have dry exhaust.:D

Otso, Kontio, Sisu, Sampo, Hanse, Njord (Sverige) and so on, all dry exh. Did you know Hanse? I made my tickets on them. Was cool, well really cool sometimes. Had just to sign for a ice campaign and got my next level, some winter we were done after 8 weeks.

[TeddyDiver]

Ja Teddy, and I said "fear seawater" did´nt say all amateurs have dry exhaust.:D

Otso, Kontio, Sisu, Sampo, Hanse, Njord (Sverige) and so on, all dry exh. Did you know Hanse? I made my tickets on them.

Ja ich weiss Hanse. Glaube es wird gebaut bei Wärtsilä zeit fünfzig jahren oder?
Got a feeling that's full of mistakes.. should take a trip to Germany sometime ein bishen praktisch zu haben :)
Anyway waiting to see the pictures of your boat..
Don't you happen to have a place for a third boat aside those two.. Not any sister ship.. more like a 26' "leftovers" steel sjark ;) Thou I propably can't afford even that :rolleyes:

[apex1]

1966 Wärtsilä, 3750 tons, 8000hp. Burned in 1998 in the Med, wrecked then.
Your German is better than tämä on minun soumen?

A third boat is not a real problem Teddy and 26 is fine, cm of course. Just send me a drawing then.

[M-Sasha]

Interesting offer, impressive data, extremely attractive price! And quite obvious a boat not attracting any boaters. That is no surprise what do they know about a well engineered and thought out passagemaker, they know better about the interior designer who is hip today. I doubt you will find a true old salts who builds with you side by side, boaters will not, a shame. But nevertheless good luck!
Sasha

[Ad Hoc]

Apex

The vac-pac looks mighty impressive. BUT, you need to get it type approved, unless it is already type approved?? Otherwise the construction wont be passed, for all the usual rules/reg's reasons...

[apex1]

Apex
The vac-pac looks mighty impressive. BUT, you need to get it type approved, unless it is already type approved?? Otherwise the construction wont be passed, for all the usual rules/reg's reasons...

Good point John, did not think about that so far. But I´m sure I´ll manage. TÜV and CE approval is there, and the foam (backing) has GL cert. If not......it is completely hidden under the foam. (question of assembly shedule you know);)
But it is fire retardant (better than the foam) so we manage.



Thank you Sasha. I hope you are not right in this case!

[dskira]

I will make some assumptions and guesses. Lets say she displace 90 tons which will make a displacement length of 152(imperial), and for a range of 5500 miles the bunker will be, let say, 31000 liters which will gave her an endurance of 17 days. But with the CPP these number can be very off.
We are talking something large and rather complex.
Building time will be 12 months and cost of the boat ready to sail (toothbrush will be on owner expenses:D ) 2 millions euros, its quite a achievement.
I would like to know, If its possible, the systematic to achieve this goal. For exemple I will guess a vessel that large will take aproximatly 33,000 man hours
so it will be a crew of aproximatly 20 boatbuilders, welders, pipers, mechanics and other. Without counting the back office for the accountant, the buyers, the stock manager and the secretary. I am perhaps completly off, it is just a guess.
This is a lot of people to supervise and to direct, and like a maestro direct his musiciens, no false note must be allowed to achieve the goal.
Can we know the naval architect who designed the hull? Will be the same person who will design the superstructure and the systems?
Daniel

[apex1]

[QUOTE]I will make some assumptions and guesses. Lets say she displace 90 tons which will make a displacement length of 152(imperial), and for a range of 5500 miles the bunker will be, let say, 31000 liters which will gave her an endurance of 17 days. But with the CPP these number can be very off.
Hmm, your assumptions bear the hallmark of a professional.
Displ. is about right on DWL. Consumption has to be calculated with the CPP in mind, that is a lot less than average. 40x24x31= 30.000 ltr = 31 days @ 180kw cont. shaft output! But usual in nice conditions are 120kw cont. thats 46 days @ 11kn!

We are talking something large and rather complex.Of course!

I would like to know, If its possible, the systematic to achieve this goal. For exemple I will guess a vessel that large will take aproximatly 33,000 man hours
No, much less than that! The yard is able to push 5 to 7 kg of boat through production, per manhr. The given price would otherwise be impossible to achieve. And not to forget, as I mentioned in the opening post, there will be NO profit, no overhead cost, no broker or sales or marketing cost!!! It is a boat for the boss, so has to be the very best they can do, but the most value for the penny too..........
This is a lot of people to supervise and to direct, and like a maestro direct his musiciens, no false note must be allowed to achieve the goal. True, but I can.
Can we know the naval architect who designed the hull? Will be the same person who will design the superstructure and the systems
It is the same, but he will be not named here.

Thank you all for your constructive contribution. That is what I call a heartwarming way of treating a thread!!! Critical, constructive and with both legs on the ground of facts, professional, really. I like you.........

Richard

[Alik]

I think apex1 is on right track with dimensions. The boat is big enough to comply for ocean class (OK, it is not under ISO, but...) without excessive internal ballast. Use of wide hull and ballast (as for smaller and relatively wider boats) will definitely reduce roll period.

We did a study for one of our concepts - 16m trawler, steel/aluminium. For that trawler compliance with wind/wave criteria from ISO12217-1 without ballast was an issue, on other hand with ballast we have to introduce roll stabilizers.

[M-Sasha]

Richard, I do not like to "rain on your parade" here, but when you did a more conventional boat, I mean not with a commercial look, I am sure you would easily find a partner to build. I know you hate to show up with your yachts, but with a classical look, could it be possible to achieve your goals too?
One like this I have in mind (I know you will like the style).

Sasha

[dskira]

Richard, I do not like to "rain on your parade" here, but when you did a more conventional boat, I mean not with a commercial look, I am sure you would easily find a partner to build. I know you hate to show up with your yachts, but with a classical look, could it be possible to achieve your goals too?
One like this I have in mind (I know you will like the style).

Sasha

Sasha, the problem with your comment is we didn't see a picture of Richard's project. I am also very anxius to see a drawing, and after that we can start the discussion about the style.
I think it will be reasonable.
Daniel

[TeddyDiver]

A third boat is not a real problem Teddy and 26 is fine, cm of course. Just send me a drawing then.
:D Thanks for the offer.. but got get my current projects (2) finished before even dreaming of new concepts.. well dreaming for sure but nothing else no no..

[apex1]

[QUOTE]I think apex1 is on right track with dimensions. The boat is big enough to comply for ocean class (OK, it is not under ISO, but...) without excessive internal ballast. Use of wide hull and ballast (as for smaller and relatively wider boats) will definitely reduce roll period.
I wish it was that easy, and fear I have to go wider than I like. A stabilizer is already part of the game anyway.
Yes we are out of ISO maybe that is a problem for some people which otherwise would like to step in. wait and see......................


Sasha Medwedew you are a old bastard! Of course you know exactly what attracts me. And do you know where to have the workshop too? In the bow??? Your boat is just some 24m btw. but could be done at nearly same price.

Teddy take care, dreams can eat your night rest.

[MikeJohns]

Richard

Be nice to see the lines, curves, coefficients. Weight distribution, GZ GM and a RM curve.

Surprised if you had full RAO’s for this, transfer functions are expensive to produce. Presumably basic resistance testing for smooth water powering ?


On extremes of cold, all our boat building steels here have a notch toughness guaranteed to -15 degC and the marine insurance companies are happy with this for 60 degrees south in winter. Cargo shipping is another story and cargo ships operating in high latitudes need considerable thought to the material toughness for sure. Most of the Korean Russian and Jap trawlers working the southern ocean are poorly built and maintained and work right up to the ice and they are not the tougher steels either.

There are ways of using cheaper steels but implementing arrester strakes with a variety of tougher materials, austenitic stainless steels are good too. As is combined framing of topsides not just longitudinal or transverse, but this is getting extreme. In ships the girder is well stressed and I don't think it's really an issue with the size boat you propose.

There's always the option of alloy deck superstructure and alloy bulkheads in a steel hull but everytime I have considered this used only alloy watertight doors and steel bulkheads. Alloy superstructure does make a difference particulalry if you have a lower D/L ratio vessel.

My own opinion is that steel is actually a better material all things considered ( John will disagree) I really like alloys passive corrosion resistance in the marine air environment. I don't like it so active when immersed and it can be very problematic from unforseen sources.

I have seen problems and advantages from both materials, I think steel will always have better longevity if properly built and maintained and it is the gift of materials when it comes to welding and repair. I’ve seen alloy patrol boats built to class and a high standard that have split bottom welds after a day in a storm. Driven too hard too much slamming and should have known better but not up to spec for required use, and class minimums being a little light at times and the fatigue life being reached early in the vessels use. I have posted phot's before of fractures in topside panels properly supported just from heavy weather on the topsides these often run to a adjacent frame and stop there fortunately.

For coastal cruising long periods at anchor steel hull would be my choice. More vessels are damaged from coming off their mooring or dragging anchor than from collisions at sea and that one thing -Abrasion resistance means a lot. For example I have a lot more confidence emergency careening a steel hull on a coral beach knowing there will be minimal paint damage, while alloy is too soft to do this and corrodes too fast when the paint is breached.and emergency remote maintenance is everything to a wandering power vessel.

Bulbous bows are one of those in vogue areas of development that often bite the designer and the owner, they are expensive to fabricate, need extensive RAO testing, tend to be easily damaged in collisions with very detrimental performance results and can cause a lot of resistance with medium and above fouling, I’d rather a boat rode up onto a reef it collided with at 12 knots than smashed in a bulbous bow and tore its engine mounts.

In most instances you would be better off with an extra meter of waterline and slowing down (relative) than pushing a submerged vessel ahead to try and cancel out your bow wave. Some pitching characteristics can be increased some can be decreased which is where reasonable RAO testing is required. Sometimes something as simple bottom plate on a skeg rudder can have a similar effect.

Seakeeper or similar will be indicative of the basic hull design but you need tank testing for the bulb.

Active Stabilizers, what’s your radius of gyration and GM ? Are you going to add masts for sail or just derricks? Whats the hullform would static bilge keels be as good an option for a lot less drag ? Auto Rudder control for roll reduction strategies ? A little less beam perhaps?

I've just rambled here as I guess any of us could all day on boat design but hard to assess a design this way :)

[dskira]

Richard

I've just rambled here as I guess any of us could all day on boat design but hard to assess a design this way :)

Please don't be shy. Seriously I like it, it is a very good post, with a lot of very thorough informations. Like it very much, mostly when you will favor steel, and avoid bulbous bow. I am with you on these one :)
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Mike

I wouldn't say i disagree with you "..My own opinion is that steel is actually a better material all things considered ( John will disagree)..". However, on the single topic of temperate, steel versus ally, ally wins hands down.

BUT and this is a very big BUT, design is not about one single issue. The whole SOR of the boat must be satisfied, so many conflicting issues to be satisfied.

When we design a boat we don't select everything from the outset and then just hope it works...we go through the SOR and then a "natural" convergence to the final solution occurs, all on their own merits.

I am sure Richard is aware of this, hence this thread to kick these 'knowns' about to see if all bases have been covered.

I agree and have stated previously, bulbous bows are limited to very exact requirements and if ones design does not fall into said "exact parameters", then i would not have one. Save on weight, cost, time etc...But in the absence of real hard tank test data, regarding seakeeping too, if any done...not so easy to fully conclude.

[dskira]

Mike
BUT and this is a very big BUT, design is not about one single issue. The whole SOR of the boat must be satisfied, so many conflicting issues to be satisfied.


Can't be better said.

[apex1]

Please don't be shy. Seriously I like it, it is a very good post, with a lot of very thorough informations. Like it very much, mostly when you will favor steel, and avoid bulbous bow. I am with you on these one :)
Daniel

Well, here it is:the pro´s of you know already, (sorry Mike and Alik,I do not exclude you).

And to end a debate about Steel vs Al.... I have had both, and Al for me is the superior material. period........but...
I mentioned that in a previous post, I would NEVER and under NO condition, and at no price and terms build a Aluminium vessel for the average boater who leaves it unattended in a port, marina, or where so ever! Al has to be pampered or driven day by day, then (and only then), it is a favourable material. Leave it unattended for a moment and you know why your insurance claimed for extra rates!

[apex1]

And we can end the discussion by a simple fact, my yard has today stated* to be not able to build in Al/ Al so, steel Al is the way to go, or we leave the project.
* as to GL standards

Again I like to tell you (all of the contributors by so far) that I am very impressed how civilized we can treat each other when the topic is a clear one and the people involved are of such knowledge. You make me happy in destroying my plans! Well, you bring them further as you know.
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Richard
"..Again I like to tell you (all of the contributors by so far) that I am very impressed how civilized we can treat each other when the topic is a clear one and the people involved are of such knowledge..."

That is because there are no egos at play here and the contributors are professionals, and can debate the issue at hand and/or just simply provide quality advice from personal experience.

Not a single PlayStation in sight!...bliss :)

[Guest62110524]

I have 16 larger alloy hull in the water, some of them are unnattended for months, and some of them are now quite old, one nearly 25 years, with no problems
I think there is much hearsay bandied about with al al, and until you have built, owned and upkept such, there hearsay is all it is
one yard that has won awards for best superyacht in Monaco, I think twice, who i used to have close connections with, put 300000 man hours into the engineering systems alone on a 150 footer(sailing) so there were many systemss your vessel will not have
properly finished (yacht class) 60 footer, may take 20000 and thats not a fast build
there is a crowd near you called Cobra yachts, they are doing a very big expedition yacht in steel, and do really big wooden Gulets, may be worth a look there
http://www.cobrayachting.com/

[Guest62110524]

Sasha, the problem with your comment is we didn't see a picture of Richard's project. I am also very anxius to see a drawing, and after that we can start the discussion about the style.
I think it will be reasonable.
Daniel

Daniel
Are you familiar with work of Robert Clark? Carita etc?
so you still draw the old way?cheers Stu

[dskira]

Daniel
Are you familiar with work of Robert Clark? Carita etc?
so you still draw the old way?cheers Stu

Yes I know Carita, she still in good shape under the name I beleive "Flurtge" but I will not garentee nor the name nor the spelling. I have a flint for Robert Clark, brillant design. Who will not love him, so elegant.
Yes I still designing the "old" way. Do you know an other way to draw:D
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

a[QUOTE]nd some of them are now quite old, one nearly 25 years, with no problems
Yes Stuart, we know.

I think there is much hearsay bandied about with al al, and until you have built, owned and upkept such, there hearsay is all it is
Yes Stuart, I know, and I built, and owned a Al yacht.

one yard that has won awards for best superyacht in Monaco, I think twice, who i used to have close connections with, put 300000 man hours into the engineering systems alone on a 150 footer(sailing) so there were many systemss your vessel will not have I would not compare a simple Tug with Maltese Falcon (built by my neighbour btw)
properly finished (yacht class) 60 footer, may take 20000 and thats not a fast build Right Stu, or half of that, it all depends you know.
there is a crowd near you called Cobra yachts, they are doing a very big expedition yacht in steel, and do really big wooden Gulets, may be worth a look there
No thanks! I have some good builders in my neighbourhood, they are not one of them. And I do´nt need a competitor to build my boat. I have shares in one of the former.
Have a look at my post # 17 please, and do me a favour: the material we build is definitely steel, any further discussion about Aluminium vessels is senseless.

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

Not sure which Class you're going to go for, but there is a new "Winterisation of Ships" coming out from LR. Your category would be "moderate" defined as: seasonal duration in cold temperatures. The rules give guidance for operating in cold temperatures and hence definition of "temp" for the area of operation and thus, the appropriate grade of steel.

[M-Sasha]

I have 16 larger alloy hull in the water, some of them are unnattended for months, and some of them are now quite old, one nearly 25 years, with no problems
I think there is much hearsay bandied about with al al, and until you have built, owned and upkept such, there hearsay is all it is
one yard that has won awards for best superyacht in Monaco, I think twice, who i used to have close connections with, put 300000 man hours into the engineering systems alone on a 150 footer(sailing) so there were many systemss your vessel will not have
properly finished (yacht class) 60 footer, may take 20000 and thats not a fast build
there is a crowd near you called Cobra yachts, they are doing a very big expedition yacht in steel, and do really big wooden Gulets, may be worth a look there
[url]http://www.cobrayachting.com/[url]

Whoosh, that was very clear for me!
And we can end the discussion by a simple fact, my yard has today stated* to be not able to build in Al/ Al so, steel Al is the way to go, or we leave the project.
* as to GL standards Not so for you?

And I have my doubts that you can instruct Richard in efficient boatbuilding. His shops produce about hundred yachts per year, that sums up to one thousand tons or more. When he is building his own yacht, with four or five (I have forgotten) yards in his background he has evry trade in house and synergy effects you probably cannot even dream of. They made a 53ft motoboat in ahurry, to replace a burned out newbuilt, 3 years ago at 7,5kg per manhour! To pretty good international yacht standard. I had the great opportunity to work for him at that time and know that for sure. When his staff needs one year to make a 90ft yacht for theyr "Patron" they dawdle.
And to your statement about 300.000 manhours and systems these Trawler yachts will not have, you are dead right, carbon masts seem to be senseless here.
Sasha

[dskira]

We have the profile, we have the material of construction, we have the main specs, we have the targueted price and the targueted time of construction.

And we have in my opinion a darn good thread.

The profile is for me splendid, I love it, rugged but civilized.
It seams in this design the convergent point it the pilothouse, it show, with that type of pilothouse and mass distribution, a serius all weather type of vessel. The offshore tug styling is superbly done, going from commercial inspiration for yacht is not an easy task. Very few succeded.
I like this profile because it is "complete" and "fluid" it do not have discrepencies. We see often an exercise of style for the bow, and a stern designed by somebody else. I will not give exemples because it will take to much space:D
The car designer Ghia used to say: anybody can design a great front, (Beside Edsel Ford of course) very few knows how to design the back
I had the great opportunity to work for him at that time and know that for sure
Sasha, you know better than all of us what Richard is capable of.
Are you going back working with him if the project start? Just curius, I hope you don't mind if I ask.
Daniel

[TeddyDiver]

I have 16 larger alloy hull in the water, some of them are unnattended for months, and some of them are now quite old, one nearly 25 years, with no problems
I think there is much hearsay bandied about with al al, and until you have built, owned and upkept such, there hearsay is all it is

I have to disagree with you.. Thou ally boat is safe and soundly built there's allways a risk if the next boat on the pier has ****** up wiring.. not a big risk but anyways...
Oops.. sorry Richard, no more ally ;)

[apex1]

Sasha you are a chatterbox! Why did´nt you post my adress too? And I own only one yard, to make that clear. Some others just work for me.


Daniel. We have the profile, we have the material of construction, we have the main specs, we have the targueted price and the targueted time of construction.

Yes we had Daniel, but I guess we need to give her some more beam. The hull was not designed to have the superstructure shown here, it had a lower profile. Although I do´nt like to go wider (cost, roll acceleration etc) I fear we must.

[apex1]

Not sure which Class you're going to go for, but there is a new "Winterisation of Ships" coming out from LR. Your category would be "moderate" defined as: seasonal duration in cold temperatures. The rules give guidance for operating in cold temperatures and hence definition of "temp" for the area of operation and thus, the appropriate grade of steel.

John, I mentioned that in the opening post
classed +100 A5, E2, to IACS in this case GL.
My German guys say "Dillinger Hütte" E 36 GL (EH 36 is LR spec) for plating, and D 36 for HP frames. this one:
http://www.universal-stahl.de/images/Wulstflachstahl_Abmessungsbereich_563.jpg
both TM

And we have to redo the complete hull for Holland profile...................................bingo!
When sacrificing the bulb we can as well give her ARC1 (GL), because framing has to be the same for E (icegoing) and the "icestringer" is the same. I did know that. Just the reinforced stem is extra, but that was what I wanted anyhow. So, class will probably be +100 A5, ARC1 GL
Not much left from "Trawler", but that was a misleading label anyway.
Ok, then lets make a Icebreaker (I feel like coming home).


the steel:

[Ad Hoc]

Richard, I saw that in the post, i just wasn't sure with Class, but you're a true patriot, GL :)

It may well be worth approaching those guys with the vac-pak stuff to see whether they have obtained or will obtain Class certs. If not, it may pay you to do this yourself, then you own the cert. Could become a little money earner in the long run!

[dskira]

Sasha Privet

Sasha what I do know about Richard was told to myself in privacy
and I am not about to post that in here
poka poka
Danial, my oldest friend had Robert Clark draw him a 32 footer, in which he went to visit Clark, via Cape Horn
They talked lots about Carita So elegent
Somewhere on this site I posted pics of her

I see so many pc designs where the sheer looks all wrong, in fact when io draw a sheerline in cad, I tip the screen over and try sight along it as I would a sheer on paper
Some people I know draw the lines old way then transfer to CAD

I worry about Richards boat, , will she be chined, or not, a round hull with clipper effect is possible at that length, I could plate that is 8 weeks more(one man) than it would take to do a chined boat We must look at resale
Unless we are rich we have to think, not so much what WE want , but the market wants

This is a very early projection. To be afraid is not the point, the point is to share between us our values and knoweldge or experience to help Richard building the perfect boat. Do you know many professional who are willing to expose their ideas, goal and project on a web paltform to be critisized? It take a lot of balls I tell you. We have to respect that with constructive comments. I do not know if you can plate her chined or bilge rounded in 8 weeks, months or years, again it is not the point.
Yachting is of course about money, but customer respect what the owner of the shipyard will built for himself and stand for his ideas, more that a glossy brochure showing a bikini girl in the bathtub, or with a apron pretending she is in the kitchen:D
By the way, if you have a problem with some members, please keep it private. Inuendoes are ennoying.
And yes I admire very much Robert Clark. He was a gentlemen.
Now my favorit part: the yacht.
My turn to project and give an opinion: beam is a bad thing. It is always possible to avoid to much beam. Beam raise the displacement for a given draft, good draft is one of the most important factor in offshore cruising, beam raise the scantling of the deck, as it raise the weight of the decks, beam need more power to pass thru a very bad sea. But of course lack of beam can generate high period of roll, very unconfortable. A great beam stress the hull to much, and can generate a lack of period of roll, as unconfortable as to much.
This is not for me to say, but I will ask the NA to give me different scenarios with the existing beam. the superstructures are not that high, you can add a little more draft if necessary.
I think at that point I will start a weight estimate to see where you stand.
I find always usefull to do a weight estimate at the beginning, even if its a sketches as a departure of the project. Going with average scantling weight, known machinery and tankage weight and joinery evaluation weight, it is not to much trouble.
This is as I said my very personal opinion, and yes I am biaised;) I like less beam and the 4.55 of the project as now, is very good. Even 5 can be acceptable.
But as go the story, this is my opinion and ................you know:rolleyes:
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Daneil

Well put. I raised the L/B issue; while this may appear to be the norm, a higher L/B ratio will greatly improve powering and seakeeping. The slight negative affects can be offset by proper design, ie bilge keels, and a sensible VCG, if approached properly from the outset of the prelim phase.

As for "..I find always usefull to do a weight estimate at the beginning.."..is there any other way??...spoken like a true professional.

We don't do any design work without estimating the first weight. It dictates so much of the design....amateurs do this last, as they like to focus upon the hull form calculations from endless softwares, why, because this is the only measurable to give some "credence" to their 'design'.

Design is a multidisciplinary affair, but the most important is weight and should be top of the list for any design spiral.

[apex1]

[QUOTE]Richard, I saw that in the post, i just wasn't sure with Class, but you're a true patriot, GL :)Hmm, jah, you know when it comes to iceclass DNV or GL ja? The Brits don´nt know much about ice, the do´nt even have it in their Whisky. (Thats clever, a Laphroaig with ice is dead).
It may well be worth approaching those guys with the vac-pak stuff to see whether they have obtained or will obtain Class certs. If not, it may pay you to do this yourself, then you own the cert. Could become a little money earner in the long run!
Did I say you´re clever?



[QUOTE]chined or bilge rounded in 8 weeks, months or years
Centraalstaal does it in 8hrs when I´m in a hurry, and the trucks to Turkey need two days.
beam is a bad thing. It is always possible to avoid to much beam. Beam raise the displacement for a given draft, good draft is one of the most important factor in offshore cruising, beam raise the scantling of the deck, as it raise the weight of the decks, beam need more power to pass thru a very bad sea. But of course lack of beam can generate high period of roll, very unconfortable. A great beam stress the hull to much, and can generate a lack of period of roll, as unconfortable as to much.
Fully concur, and I do´nt like the uncomfortable roll acceleration of beamy boats.

Even 5 can be acceptable.
The 4,5 is about where we will end I guess, and give her a bit more draught instead. That way we will get her in balance again.
By now we are in the 100 tonnes ballpark and I would like to stay there.
Resale value might be a issue for any partner building with me, for me it is not! I am a keeper, not a trader and this will be my final boat, I´m sure.

Thank you both for your input.
Richard

And
I know they are completely different but, to me, reminiscent, just the same... Sorry Mark, had forgotten to reply. Yes they are quite different. Do you know our Tugboat Ballet in Hamburg?
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,183753,00.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q98RJ2qfwZk
http://img.fotocommunity.com/photos/17053857.jpg
Richard

[dskira]

I would like to give my own feeling about the "resale value"
I don't think it realy exist on a yacht. When you built on that range of price and up it is very often a one person dream. This dream is often shattered because for some strange reason, the owner feel the need to justifie his or her expensive buy. The justification is very often the resale value. It happened more than once in my case, even with samller amount sometime.
A yacht is sometime designed for charter purpose, or both personal and charter, and has to own its keep, and perhaps the resale value can be slightly higher than a typical personal yacht. These yacht are more and more over stuffed of unnecessary "decor" to please their corporate clients, and when they hit the market for sale, the price go down anyway.
Buying a yacht should be a complete selfish journey, and more the yacht is "athipic" designed with a great sense of personal achievement, more it will appeal the next client. I saw some great yacht in the same family for 40 or more years, I don't think one second they told the builder: the resale value will be good? No they said: I WANT a yacht like this and that. Period.
Look at glossy magazine, page after page of countless yacht for sale, some with a splendid "resale value" been on these pages for years. When they sell a boat, the price is never disclosed, and that its not because is high.
What we sell as a builder or designer is not for everybody, face it. It is always a project with a lot of money and risks involve. It keep a fantastic and inventive people of a sector of the industry working, and that because we have great patrons. The brokerage company make money by the numbers of yacht for sale, not by the "resale value" of each one. And every years you have more yacht for sale, than peopke who buy them.
Off course I was talking yacht, not commercial vessels.
As always it is my two cents
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

dskira

You're quiet right. These boats are dreams, and as such one dream for one person. For another 'wealthy' dreamer, it is not his dream, why spent lots of money on something that is not exact, when I have plenty of money to make my own personal dream??

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a good point was the "Aussie Rules", for Greg Norman. Bought for $50m, sold 9 months later for $30m

If you're worried about resale, you haven't got the money to build the dream start with..!!

[dskira]

Ad Hoc,
Thank you for understanding and backing the concept of the weight estimate at the beginning of anny project. It is so overlook it is umbelivable. And from a professional like you, it is an honor.
I read a lot of your posts thru the differents threads, very insightful, to the point and very informative.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a good point was the "Aussie Rules", for Greg Norman. Bought for $50m, sold 9 months later for $30m

You are absolutly right. I do not know if Norman thought it was easy to make a buck with megayacht, but anyway whatever the reason it didn't work so well. And it's normal. It is difficult and must be kept simple: built your dream for yourself, period. What will happen after, who knows!
If you're worried about resale, you haven't got the money to build the dream start with..!!

Of course your last comment resume perfectly the situation!
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

dskira
"..Thank you for understanding and backing the concept of the weight estimate at the beginning of anny project. It is so overlook it is umbelivable..."

It simply amazes me, the amount of people that come on this site saying, ooooooo, i have a great idea what about X or Y, and so the debate ensues with endless computer plots and colour graphics to sound all important. Fine, whatever floats your boat!!

All it does, is just show that they are not professional designers/naval architects and do not wish to turn their idea into reality, they just wish to, well....you can fill in the blanks!. Because the first thing one must do, is the weight estimate. Nothing and I mean nothing will work without a weight estimate and a realistic one too. Lots of built in margins...the weight of a boat never gets lighter...it always get heavier!

Which is why Richard needs to make sure his boat has a proper weight estimate done now, before proceeding down any further to the other "what if" scenarios or detailing.

(Thanks for the kind comments. Not everyone agrees with your opinion of me...you are in a minority!)

[apex1]

(Thanks for the kind comments. Not everyone agrees with your opinion of me...you are in a minority!)

No, he´s not. The majority has not the balls to agree, thats it.

[apex1]

I would like to give my own feeling about the "resale value"
I don't think it realy exist on a yacht. When you built on that range of price and up it is very often a one person dream. This dream is often shattered because for some strange reason, the owner feel the need to justifie his or her expensive buy. The justification is very often the resale value. It happened more than once in my case, even with samller amount sometime.
A yacht is sometime designed for charter purpose, or both personal and charter, and has to own its keep, and perhaps the resale value can be slightly higher than a typical personal yacht. These yacht are more and more over stuffed of unnecessary "decor" to please their corporate clients, and when they hit the market for sale, the price go down anyway.
Buying a yacht should be a complete selfish journey, and more the yacht is "athipic" designed with a great sense of personal achievement, more it will appeal the next client. I saw some great yacht in the same family for 40 or more years, I don't think one second they told the builder: the resale value will be good? No they said: I WANT a yacht like this and that. Period.
Look at glossy magazine, page after page of countless yacht for sale, some with a splendid "resale value" been on these pages for years. When they sell a boat, the price is never disclosed, and that its not because is high.
What we sell as a builder or designer is not for everybody, face it. It is always a project with a lot of money and risks involve. It keep a fantastic and inventive people of a sector of the industry working, and that because we have great patrons. The brokerage company make money by the numbers of yacht for sale, not by the "resale value" of each one. And every years you have more yacht for sale, than peopke who buy them.
Off course I was talking yacht, not commercial vessels.
As always it is my two cents
Daniel

That was exactly what I feel after 7 professionally done newbuilts, to my very idiotic specifications ( as named every time by so called specialists) I am the one to operate the vessel! My decision! My fun to loose or waste money!

[Ad Hoc]

The customer is always right...!

(So long as he pays!! :P:P)

[Guest62110524]

Yes, and I am absolutely pissed when this happens here, there is a chance to get a bargain, and that might not be clear to everyone.

To the auditorium:

I do not know if you amateurs really have noticed that I offer a 8 million dollar (worthless american paper) boat for 3 of the same crap!? Did you? At present you could exchange 3 of the sh.t to 2 of real worlds €, and I was willing to build a boat of substantial value for that money.
Obviously there are other values more important than getting the same boat, a boatbuilder likes to make for himself.

A very prominent US american sales company (they are not boatbuilders) producing in China, offers a 64´plastic boat at the same price!

Yes Stuart Hearn, you can argue again about standards.
My boats have ever been to full GL standards (I like no other I´m a patriot),
and none failed. Be sure! And to comfort, my dear, this is going to be a worldwide passage making vessel, do you expect any fancy etched mirrors in the loo?? Your favourite has, but out at sea, that does not count. It does not count. that does not count. It has no value, clear?
And when I go to make me a boat, be sure Hearn I need anything but you.
Richard
Period

goodness what bought that on, I admire your project, you are one angry man for sure Whoose arguing abt standards?
not once have I ever critisized your project Do you want us to ooh and ah? is this it, grow up and calm down I wished you well my mail, but you are so full of vitriole you dont even try to interpret what we are saying

[Frosty]

You wanna spend 2 years on a build with this man?

Personally I don't want an ice breaker, I like palm trees and coconuts.

Bit much for Apex to understand that someone may think differently to him.

Pssst I don't like Hyabusa's either.

[MikeJohns]

Daniel
Thanks for you words before, yes start with weight estimates beg borrow or steal some from a similar boat is a good start. Now about that particular design of yours....the green one :)


John couldn't agree more;

..............Nothing and I mean nothing will work without a weight estimate and a realistic one too. ............

Occasionally there is a nice surprise but usually those entries of "Miscellaneous items" with a healthy weight allocation well up in the vessel get chewed up by the end.
This is where you will find Parametric design packages come into their own, all the framing is auto-regenerated along with changes to the hullform. Then you can fine tune the hullform to suit a heavier engine or greater bunkering or tweak GM all with instant hull material as CNC cut feeding straight back into the W&M sheet.

However Ive seen major screw-ups especially because people trust what comes out of the computer without double checking what went in.

[dskira]

Victoria and Albert III designed by William White was 430' in lenght, a beam of 50' 17' of draft and 5,500 tons displacement. She had a designed metacenter height of 2'. She was launched in 1899.
After her lauch, they started the fitting out as usual, and she started to list 8 degree, then slowly to 24 degree in the dock. they counter ballasted her and she came back to 10 degree list.
G.L. Watson was called and find out that they put 711 tons of outfitting not accounted in the plans, because everybody in the entourage of the queen wanted their own stuffs. You don't say no at that time, you just do it.
Well G.L. Watson tall the builder to get rid of 700 tons of marble, pianos, and other crap and the cost of that change was 10% of her total cost.
She finally had a metacentric height of 2.7' loaded and 1.5' light, and she went strong (although hes was not much used for long cruise offshore) for 55 years and was scrapped in 1955. Her hull was iron, sheathed with full planking of teck.
I thought it is an interresting story of miscommunications, ego, stupidity, and cowardise. Very rampant in the Victoria era. (I do not intent to insult England which I admire, just a personal assessment of this strange era full of contradiction)
After the plan are done, and calculation done , don't let any body make changes:D
By the way G.L. Watson was a very good man. After the great designer John Harvey (one of my favorite designer) came to retirement in total poverty, G.L Watson made a fund to pay him a mensuality until he die. The same sad retirement faith happened to the famous Dixon Kemp. Tough times.

Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Mike
The problem with "...This is where you will find Parametric design packages come into their own, all the framing is auto-regenerated along with changes to the hullform..."...is that this covers, (reasonably well) just Group 1, that is the 'Hull Structure'.

There are 5 other major weight groups that require attention, non of which can be "computed" by a parametric program, only good old fashioned design-leg work!

(Incidentally, i still do my Group 1 weights by hand, always have always will...since the parametric programs need a complete hull to give you the weight....by which time, it is too late!!)

[apex1]

Sorry for whatever it was that I said. I won't adulterate your thread more. Good day.

I may have misunderstood what you said? But I did not feel you adulterate the thread. Not you!



goodness what bought that on, I admire your project, you are one angry man for sure

sometimes Stuart, only sometimes. And I could not find much constructive critics you made here. You know since ages I do not look for resale value. And what was the Al dispute good for?

Applause is not what I am seeking here. Constructive and well founded critics is the topic. (or a good joke?) Frosties was not a good one.......
A vessel with ice class has no obligation to navigate high latitude only. And I count 12 month to one year, not two.

Thank you Ad Hoc, Mike and Daniel!

Richard

[TeddyDiver]

A vessel with ice class has no obligation to navigate high latitude only.

Peace of mind to know you can allways run over pirats in a bulletproof vessel :D

[Frosty]

When both boats are finished will you toss a coin for them or will yours be allocated at the keel laying ceremony. Just a thought.


Just one technical question, the wife wants to know if she will be able choose her own carpet? and will it have knives and forks because we got a load of spare ones in a box under the stairs.

[apex1]

Peace of mind to know you can allways run over pirats in a bulletproof vessel :D

Bulletproof, there was one, named "Van Triumph" , could withstand machine gun fire. Of course the ***** did not understand, that she did not cope well in seas. You could have had her at ten percent of construction price after one year. Way above the value...........

Peace of mind is: have no serious doubt about hitting a container, a whale or just the pier. Have a commercially built vessel that survives a unexpected contact with floating debris of any kind. (that is not possible, as we know, but has to be tried to achieve). Overbuilt...........
well, that is how a NA looks at it.....
I look from another angle. There is only one precious butt I have to take care about, mine.
Yes, too heavy scantlings have a serious disadvantage, performance....
and they have as serious advantage...ruggedness! Everyone may take his personal choice. I am better at sea with the most rugged and heaviest vessel than with a one, which does better going thru the annual bunkering invoice. If one cannot afford some 100 tonnes of fuel per annum, why is he building or buying a vessel, able to consume that?
What? 65.000$ of bunkers hurts?
Ahh, there are other ways to enjoy watersports. Frosty knows one! making 170 engine hours in three years! And argueing how crappy his engines are...
Mate, I do more on my wiper motors. (per annum).... edit: in 4 months

When both boats are finished will you toss a coin for them or will yours be allocated at the keel laying ceremony. Just a thought.

A good thought Frosty! When both are absolutely the same design, I have no prob to toss a coin.

We are talking a no nonsense vessel here, not a average yacht.

Regards
Richard

[Frosty]

[Q?
Ahh, there are other ways to enjoy watersports. Frosty knows one! making 170 engine hours in three years! And argueing how crappy his engines are...
Mate, I do more on my wiper motors. (per annum).... edit: in 4 months

Actually Its 150 hours in 7 years. My boat is not an Ice breaker its an island hopper , I knew that when I bought it because thats what I wanted. I live in a tropical archipelagos with 100 islands to visit.

The engines are perfect,--(Yanmar says so) Yanmar perfect,-- its just that I have a German streak in me that wants absolutely perfect , I would have thought a man such as yourself would understand that.

As far as your wiper motors, I can not be held responsible for the German precipitation.

[Frosty]

[Q?
Ahh, there are other ways to enjoy watersports. Frosty knows one! making 170 engine hours in three years! And argueing how crappy his engines are...
Mate, I do more on my wiper motors. (per annum).... edit: in 4 months

Actually Its 150 hours in 7 years. My boat is not an Ice breaker its an island hopper , I knew that when I bought it because thats what I wanted. I live in a tropical archipelagos with 100 islands to visit.

The engines are perfect,--(Yanmar says so) Yanmar perfect,-- its just that I have a German streak in me that wants absolutely perfect , I would have thought a man such as yourself would understand that.

As far as your wiper motors, I can not be held responsible for the German precipitation.

And finally its 4 am in Germany dont you sleep.

[Frosty]

Oh Ok,-- I was just helping to lighten it up a bit ,-it was getting tense.

[dskira]

Oh Ok,-- I was just helping to lighten it up a bit ,-it was getting tense.

I do not see any need to lighten up. We are talking about a project, and it's interresting and also very helpfull and informative.
Yous should read the posts they are good (don't to worry I am not pading myself on the back) I am talking of the post of other contributors.
Perhaps as a mechanical wizzard give us more of your thoughts, not a load of so call lighten stuff. For that I rent a Charlie Chaplin movie.
Cheers
Daniel

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=dskira;
Perhaps as a mechanical wizzard give us more of your thoughts,
Cheers
Daniel[/QUOTE]

Your calling me a mechanical wizard? well thank you very much. Im not sure what to call you!!! Im sure we will hear more from you as your confidence grows.

[dskira]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/construction%2024%20mtres.jpg

I realy enjoy this picture of the 25 meters in building in the late 1960s. at the De Vries shipyard.
I took it on the book of the Feadship story.
It as some nice detail.
Daniel

[apex1]

Nice picture Daniel! Thank you.
That looks like a ice stringer in the first boat?;) No, but it shows the typical "Dutch" framing on 45 cm centers.
Richard

[Guest62110524]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/construction%2024%20mtres.jpg

I realy enjoy this picture of the 25 meters in building in the late 1960s. at the De Vries shipyard.
I took it on the book of the Feadship story.
It as some nice detail.
Daniel

Dan
can you please start a new thread on elegent ships(yachts) I will be into that, as soon as you do I wiull delete this post, as I am forbidden contribute here:))
I too love the Feadships and it is how I build frames no stringers, to real boatbuilders stringers are a dirty word
So just for staal, steel and alu
see that top run, well the Dutch had a way of developing the plates, they used a matrix of criss cross sticks, from the true length of sheer(bovinline) and plate line and body plan

I had a small yard next to a cuppla Dutch guys and they were too jealous to show me how However they learnt from us the overhead plate wheeling and forming machine
you see the nose on the one behind? it takes me 3 hrs to form thsi one, but I need someone on the switch to reverse the wheels,
The Dutch used recipricol presses
In alloy clipper like this is harder than steel as is an ordinary cone type, , in steel you can shrink the edge , which bows it, , that is not possible in al al
the fairest yacht I saw was built in germany

[apex1]

I too love the Feadships and it is how I build frames no stringers, to real boatbuilders stringers are a dirty word


Except for a "icestringer" for example, Stuart! That is and remains to be a icestringer (I mean for "real boatbuilders" and yards, of course). Stringer: (Substantiv / male) longitudinal scantling......................
And welding to longs and stringers instead of frames is the preferred way, the pro´s choose, btw. You should learn to know longitudinal reinforcements, girders, and stringers, before you contradict in such a premature way again. Now I do it! I name you a non professional!
And to broaden the horizon:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z6D6YbgiGnUC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=stringer+ship&source=bl&ots=Hbo_7c3D8O&sig=CL-sinKsrh6R08PMbEtV2a1G930&hl=de&ei=Y2GUSoLVNsevsAatubkq&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=stringer%20ship&f=false
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O225-stringer.html
http://www.gl-group.com/infoServices/rules/pdfs/deutsch/schiffst/teil-1/kap-1/deutsch/abschn15.pdf

So far on that! (GL I guess, or Zosen Kiokai, we can name professional enough???)

the fairest yacht I saw was built in germanyyes, where else?


Richard

[apex1]

She goes 29 by 6,80 as to my spec.s
weight will be around 140 metric tonnes.
That means price will be about 2,4 m €, not the same as formerly supposed. (not hte same ship)
But that anyway attracted just two people. Which impresses me a bit, I thought this is a so outstanding offer, it would attract some five or more!?


to end up with the one true............

[Guest62110524]

not so sure abt ice stringer, as my mate said, (I missed it) the frames which are half the distance apart up there have to land on this shelf
By the way the Eng are very experinced ice class, all their artic trawlers were such
BUT I do not despute as I said, that German small ships, and large are quality and they have forgotton more than I or anyone else will ever know
In 3 weeks I join a retired shipbuilder in Croatia
a link , it is not THE atlantic class was looking for
http://www.atlantic.no/marine/default.asp?page=3171,3174&lang=2
and do not forget the great yards of of Poland, built soem wonderful ice class trawlers
I think the modern term TRAWLER as coined by the USA is a bit of an insult to these great ships
onece I spoke by radio to skipper of ARTIC BUCCANEER, fishing in the Southern Ocean nz, he told me they stopped tralwing at 60 knots
Artic Biuccaneer is no Otago Buccaneer 1973 Gdansk shipyard

[dskira]

She goes 29 by 6,80 as to my spec.s
weight will be around 140 metric tonnes.
That means price will be about 2,4 m €, not the same as formerly supposed. (not hte same ship)
But that anyway attracted just two people. Which impresses me a bit, I thought this is a so outstanding offer, it would attract some five or more!?


to end up with the one true............

Do you have specific reason for this raise in weight and size? 100 tons to 140 tons it's quite a different vessel, im term of every thing around as you know.
I think attracting two people on a project just started is quite good. The project more advanced will have attracted more people.
But it is true that the market of new built seams to go toward larger yacht. Buy the way 140 tons at Euros 2.4M if far less expensive than 100 tons at Euros 2 M. So the new specifications are a far better deal.
Let us know more, that is an evolution.
Daniel

[dskira]

Perhaps at this new size you can take a look at the low speed large displacement engine like the ABC or Callesen. I think they are the only brand on the range suitable for the 140 tons, as a low speed diesel. They start at 250 hp I think. The other brand like Watsila start only at bigger hp.
Their weight is quite high, but it can be considered part of the ballast.
The ABC as a separate lube oil tank, no oil sump, so the engine seat low.The starting system is compress air.
Callesen offert the complete system, shafting and props.
Their torque is impressive.
A personal design thought: going in that direction, the engine room can be on two deck high with a mezzanine all around and a skylight. I know its quite old fashion and obsolete, but these engine are so beautiful, looking at them is an attraction.
Just a thought
Daniel

[apex1]

Perhaps at this new size you can take a look at the low speed large displacement engine like the ABC or Callesen. I think they are the only brand on the range suitable for the 140 tons, as a low speed diesel. They start at 250 hp I think. The other brand like Watsila start only at bigger hp.
Their weight is quite high, but it can be considered part of the ballast.
The ABC as a separate lube oil tank, no oil sump, so the engine seat low.The starting system is compress air.
Callesen offert the complete system, shafting and props.
Their torque is impressive.
A personal design thought: going in that direction, the engine room can be on two deck high with a mezzanine all around and a skylight. I know its quite old fashion and obsolete, but these engine are so beautiful, looking at them is an attraction.
Just a thought
Daniel
Thank you Daniel.
Yes the Callesen engines are impressive pieces, and I would like to have one. (the complete package of course, because they have very good CPP´s in that). But at around 12 tonnes for a 460 hp they are quite a bit above my weight estimations. (and the prices are as well)
I have no experience with the Belgium ones, so cannot comment on that.
Will comment on your other thoughts later.
Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Yeah Daniel, nice and beefy engines. Especially the Callesen. (I feel better with Danish than with Belgium stuff).
But 137 Liter displacement and 14,7 tonnes to make 500HP, thats quite a good ballast! But of course they make sense. You could bunker any MDF / MDO fuel (and even palmoil, where it is produced). At present 550$ per mt MDO, that sounds nice.

When you look at the profile, you can say all the hull aft of the deck salon is engine room and workshop. I am moving the exhaust stacks aft of the salon. There will be a deck hatch for each, the workshop and eng. room. The hydraulic crane moves to aft end of main deck (bringing the weight lower), and reaches over both hatches. Eng. room hatch is bolted in place and not meant to be opened regularly. Workshop hatch opens easy but has only sufficient size to heave a 8 cyl. car engine in and out.
A skylight would disturb the deck and does not fit the "modern" look of the vessel. The eng. room has about 3m height but to get enough headroom in the shop I had to add another meter in length.
The alternative was engine room aft and vee drive gear, but I do´nt like the weight so far aft and the angle of engine and shaft. Too low air intake and exhaust and no inside access (extremely important for me).

Width has to be greater due to some points I will not give up. The eng. room must have access from the inside (from deck too), that means there has to be a corridor. Because I like to sleep as close to the center of pitch and roll as possible and I like to have a second, small cabin with single bunks as a "heavy weather accommodation" near center of movement too. (try to sleep in a king size bed at sea state 6 or higher) Thats both below salon. Means width....
Tenders weight has to be low, means main deck stowage, but one has to be able to walk easily around them. All the main deck MUST be a walkaround deck. When you ever have worked on a other one, with a line or a fender in your hands, you will immediately understand what I am talking.
The wheelhouse is quite a large one (bit shorter as shown), and has a pilot berth and a WC! On a fully crewed vessel you do´nt need that, but with "family crew", on your first all night watch, you know pretty soon the value of a bridgedeck loo. Thats all weight....

Regards
Richard



to real boatbuilders stringers are a dirty word

That was a own goal! Mr lazeyjack/whoosh
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/hull-material-arctic-cruising-23001-2.html#post236577

[dskira]

The alternative was engine room aft and vee drive gear, but I do´nt like the weight so far aft and the angle of engine and shaft. Too low air intake and exhaust and no inside access (extremely important for me).

Width has to be greater due to some points I will not give up. The eng. room must have access from the inside (from deck too), that means there has to be a corridor. Because I like to sleep as close to the center of pitch and roll as possible and I like to have a second, small cabin with single bunks as a "heavy weather accommodation" near center of movement too. (try to sleep in a king size bed at sea state 6 or higher) Thats both below salon. Means width....
All the main deck MUST be a walkaround deck. When you ever have worked on a other one, with a line or a fender in your hands, you will immediately understand what I am talking.
The wheelhouse is quite a large one (bit shorter as shown), and has a pilot berth and a WC! On a fully crewed vessel you do´nt need that, but with "family crew", on your first all night watch, you know pretty soon the value of a bridgedeck loo. Thats all weight....


These are very valuable reasons. V drive for me as no place on a boat like you want to do. They are noisy (in my experience, perhaps they are better now) and it is difficult to inspect the coupling shaft/gear if the V is not separated from the engine. In case the V gear is separated you have one more shaft. I see that at as a loosing situation.
And of course as you mention, the weight on the aft end, it not help the performance by bad weather.
The sleeping accommodation I know exatly what you mean. I concure complitly.
Yes walk around deck is mendatory, so many peoples do not understand that, so many boat are with what they call "full beam" cabin. It is a wrond way to design a proper vessel.
you are a true sailor Richard, I never doubted about that!
The loo at proximity to the helm, I like that, make a lot of sense. Saw that only in one vessel, I can't remember the name, it was long time ago, it was a offshore fishing boat! They are clever!
Probably other yacht had them, I don't know.
I understand your reserve about the engines. A last comment and I will not come back on this subject. The torque at 400 rpm is phenomenal, you do not need a 500 KW a 250 Kw will suffice. On the down side they are very slow to respond, you need a shaft brake, and they need a lot of air to breath. That's it for the engines!
Of course the boat been larger, the specifiactions you are asking are more easier to achieve. And the market seams more open for larger vessel.
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

These are very valuable reasons. V drive for me as no place on a boat like you want to do. They are noisy (in my experience, perhaps they are better now) and it is difficult to inspect the coupling shaft/gear if the V is not separated from the engine. In case the V gear is separated you have one more shaft. I see that at as a loosing situation.
And of course as you mention, the weight on the aft end, it not help the performance by bad weather.
Uncomfortable motion was another aspect, and of course a CPP would not be possible! But I sacrifice the galley before I sacrifice a CPP!
The sleeping accommodation I know exatly what you mean. I concure complitly. As a aside, the small chamber is not "designed" to be guest accommodation, but on short trips will serve that too.
Yes walk around deck is mendatory, so many peoples do not understand that, so many boat are with what they call "full beam" cabin. It is a wrond way to design a proper vessel. I allways asked me what are the people diong in a full beam bedroom? dancing?
you are a true sailor Richard, I never doubted about that!
The loo at proximity to the helm, I like that, make a lot of sense. Saw that only in one vessel, I can't remember the name, it was long time ago, it was a offshore fishing boat! They are clever! Probably other yacht had them, I don't know. I had it once on a fully crewed boat and will not miss it since. Only one design I know of shows that feature, a Dave Gerr design of a true classic. I found some pictures.

I understand your reserve about the engines. A last comment and I will not come back on this subject. The torque at 400 rpm is phenomenal, you do not need a 500 KW a 250 Kw will suffice. On the down side they are very slow to respond, you need a shaft brake, and they need a lot of air to breath. That's it for the engines!
Of course the boat been larger, the specifiactions you are asking are more easier to achieve. And the market seams more open for larger vessel.
Cheers
Daniel

I have no reserve about those beefy engines, quite the opposite! I have had two of those monsters in my old Museum ships. So lets go ahead discussing it!
The slow responding is not a problem, I do´nt need a shaft break. CPP !!!
ER ventilation and air intake are quite often a big problem on yachts. Not so here, look at these stacks. Each is more than 1,4 m² and they are not there for decoration.

Just got the information, that Bukh/Callesen in Aabenraa does not produce the Callesens anymore! A pity. Now my yard will ask in Belgium too.

Regards
Richard

Drawings are copyright Dave Gerr Design!!! I hope he will not mind.

[dskira]

Right I forget the CPP. This is sad for Callesen. A lot of large tug boat here use the Wastila but the average size one is Cat.
I like the Dave Gerr design. He has a certain touch, always a very clear design. His knoweldge is almost phenomenal, the man is an encyclopedie by himself:)

Cheers
Daniel

[dskira]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Richard%2028%20M.%20tug%20yacht.jpg

[dskira]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Schaarhorn%201908.jpg

I realy like her too:)

[apex1]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Schaarhorn%201908.jpg
I realy like her too:)

Schaarhörn, 1908 Janssen & Schmilinsky Hamburg, 41x6,80m, 230BRT, I know almost every bolt and rivet................
a alltime beauty.

http://www.ehlers-wf.de/Hauptgalerie/Schaarhoern/dss_bilder/7.5x12g.jpg

Alexandra, another Janssen & Schmilinsky, built 1908 too, 37x7m, 140BRT
http://www.dampfer-alexandra.de/images/diashow-top/bild1.jpg

The picture below shows Kronprinz 35x6,4m, 120BRT, 1910 Neptun Werft. In the background left, Schaarhörn drydocked. Both underwent their major refit at the same time in Hamburg. Jöhnk Werft, 1991 (my picture)

[dskira]

I thought you will know her!
It must be a treat to go onboard. She is a a real beauty.
I saw her lines drawing in a magazine years ago, I think she displace 400 tons, but that I am not sure. I remember the lines drawing, very gracefull, extremely easy and flowing. A beautiful design, like so often on steam yacht design.
Cheers
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

Nice....nice "looking" Richard

The D.Gerr is a nice 'classic' looking design too.

Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet?....so we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....this way, certainly dskira could more than most, with his superior knowledge on those heavy diesels, see what other options may be possible.

[Ad Hoc]

Wow...wonderful 'old boats'......one can almost smell the salty sea permeated with the smell of soot

[dskira]

Nice....nice "looking" Richard

The D.Gerr is a nice 'classic' looking design too.

Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet?....so we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....this way, certainly dskira could more than most, with his superior knowledge on those heavy diesels, see what other options may be possible.

I realy apreciate, but my knoweldge is far from superior. I had the oportunity to be on vessel with ABC three cylinders, on other with Guascor 6 cylinders (more modern configuration medium speed) and for smaller vessel the Fita, one monstruous cylinder (made on order), a design like the old Lister, and my favorite, but medium speed, the Kelvin 6.
At the time almost all the engine for fishing vessel use to be of low speed or medium speed, large displacement, accepting all sort of fuel. Some on direct coupling with engine stopped and re-started in reverse.
And some of these engine built from scratch without a brand name.
I was investigating here in the US the use of the Arrow oil field engine for boat, but the client back of of the project. I have a real passion for old oil field engine.
I am not, by far a mechanic, I just love low speed engine, for their simplicity, reliability, and for personal sentimental reason. I love the noise, the smell and the feeling of strenght of these engines. All of them always had a very spacious engine room, due to the maintenance, all of them can be overhall in situ, and also the price been much higher, better to take care of them!
You see nothing very professional on that, just good memories.
But didn't I say I will not come back to this subject:D
Cheers
Daniel

[Guest62110524]

Gooday Dan

Nice to talk the other day
Diesels

I think we can all class them as such

1— Slow the crosshead 2 cycle 100 –400 rpm ships engine the efficiency just keeps improving, mech efficiency highest of any internal combustion engine

2—slow to medium speed, 400-900 rpm mostly four cycles

3 medium – fast 900 1500

4 fast to high speed 1500 2300

5
High speed to very high speed which is above 2500

So we have a choice for this boat number 2, heavy, and very expensive, because of the massive forgings, and castings and 3, medium
‘
I would opt for 3

The way a ship is designed, , what screw? From the screw comes the engine type,

But now we see people saying, oh we have a engine, so what screw? This is back to front
We say this ship needs this screw, and then we match engine and gear
In this case with Apex the optimum would be a Cummins KTA type

Why
Well this engine does 30000- hrs in mining sit without touching Mining, is very harsh on engines, So he can take this eng with deep reduction, and fraction price slower engine, and when he is long dead this will be running)

IF you google tuna fleet NA you will see most ships are Cummins powered
World wide back up, unparalleled warranty
747,s and Cummins are maybe the best things to come out of USA
HOW DO I KNOW THIS?
Well in early 70, s I worked for Cummins
I was also as I said to you, 2nd engineer tug Chippy T, out of Great Yarmouth UK operating Ecofisk field half way between Aberdeen and Norway
we had medium speed 900 rpm, 6 to one reduction 12 foot ss screws, I tink from memory 5 blade
nobody has mentioned the excellent medium sp. Jap diesels as used in the Tuna long line boats

[Ad Hoc]

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

[Guest62110524]

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

no doubt abt it mate you are 100% theory, still carry on, nobody least of all I listen
who the fuch tank tests?

[Ad Hoc]

Whoosh

I see you're back to your usual ad hominem and diatribe rants again rather than actually contributing again worth while.

"..no doubt abt it mate you are 100% theory, still carry on, nobody least of all I listen
who the fuch tank tests?.."

Clearly someone who "don't tell me anything because I've been in building for 40 years" thinks is not necessary just speaks volumes of what you have, or rather have not, been doing for 40 years....

So, in the 70s, which is only 30 years ago, not 40....is this what you call building, working for cummins and also a 2nd engineer on a tug?

[dskira]

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.

Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

I agree fully. Tank testind is a very good way to detect the whole hull strenght and weakness.
No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull. I am not saying it's scientific by far, but it is very helpful.
I find sometime redesigning the hull because of this test, mostly when the design is of norms. I tested different style of bow, from full depth bow to cutaway bow. It was very enlightening.

Now about old engine this last one, I can't resist:The 1929 Krupp engines on the previous RosenKavalier, (I think Haida now, the original name) a very amazing and beautiful vessel. The engines still goind strong, 750 hp @ 250 Rpm. Talk about torque:)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Rosenkavalier%20engine.jpg

[dskira]

Quite a beauty.
http://www.dampfer-alexandra.de/images/diashow-top/bild1.jpg

[wardd]

helene

more years ago than i care to think about i was a modelmaker for boeing/vertol making models for wind tunnel testing, even then the science of model testing was amazingly accurate as to the real thing, can anyone say flextures

and this was a time when mechanical calculators and slide rules were still in use

a few strain gauges will tell you a lot

[apex1]

[QUOTE]1— Slow the crosshead 2 cycle 100 –400 rpm ships engine the efficiency just keeps improving, mech efficiency highest of any internal combustion engine
There are no such left as far as I know!

2—slow to medium speed, 400-900 rpm mostly four cycles
Thats what Daniel and I am talking at present.

3 medium – fast 900 1500
The big Lugger, the Mitsubishis, Yanmars or the KTA 38 are in that range. The Lugger I have already.
Sulzer had a very nice 6cyl. in that range and that was my very first choice, but Wärtsilä did not continue this engine model. The smallest Wärtsilä they offered was above 1.000Kw, thats too much.
There may be some Reman. on the market, I look since half a year now.

4fast to high speed 1500 2300
5High speed to very high speed which is above 2500
Completely out of discussion, and they have ever been.
So we have a choice for this boat number 2, heavy, and very expensive, because of the massive forgings, and castings and 3, medium

First I have the choice I would say. It sure is worth to have a closer look at the 450 to 750 rpm range. And I do at present. (well besides sailing)

And the statement that these engines are very expensive is wrong, sorry! When you count cost over TBO these monster become cheaper, and when you calculate purchase and op cost over a 20 year period (and nothing else makes sense) they cost much less than a mass product like the Cummins, for example.
Stu, you obviously do´nt like the idea, that this is not a showboat, sitting at the docks. And that I am not a yachtie playing boaty, boaty.
This is, as mentioned in the opening post, A TRUE GO ANYWHERE BOAT! This boat will travel.

The way a ship is designed, , what screw? From the screw comes the engine type,
You should really read the thread Stu, not only your postings! You should know from the very beginning that I install a CPP for sure!

But now we see people saying, oh we have a engine, so what screw?

You do´nt think you see me acting that dumb way!?! do you?
who the fuch tank tests?

Only the professional world Stuart! And I mentioned that the hull shown here WAS tank tested!

Until the boat is tank tested and the resistance is known in all conditions, the drag and hence the thrust required from the prop is also unknown. So using the CPP that Richard wants requires more data and hece which engine is best to deliver the power to provide the thrust requires across the speed range.
Need to tank test first, before saying which engine is best...

Right as usual!
But I do not choose a engine for best price performance ratio anyway. I choose for longevity, reliability and easy service! The torque in the class I will install is far above the demand in any case. I can turn a wheel of about 1,5 meter that makes a easy choice with a CPP.
If possible, a heavy, slow speed eng. without red. gear.

Another tank test is about 40.000 to 50.000€ for that boat, that should be in the budget.



more years ago than i care to think about i was a modelmaker for boeing/vertol making models for wind tunnel testing, even then the science of model testing was amazingly accurate as to the real thing, can anyone say flextures
and this was a time when mechanical calculators and slide rules were still in use
a few strain gauges will tell you a lot

Thanks wardd a nice boat too! Though much younger.

The tank testing is not really new for me. We have our HSVA in Hamburg since almost 100 years now, and I did know them as a schoolboy. Though, the hull which I recently refused to build was tested in Wageningen.



Who brought that thing up to post old steamers??????
You know (at least most), I love them really but what I am planning here is almost the opposite.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Has your NA stated a weight estimate yet?....so we can see what 'budgets' ahve been allocated to such things like the engines and propulsion systems etc....

Of course not completely. I am still not through with my accommodation. The first calc.s were made at 5 tons for the complete propulsion (engine, red. gear, shaft, prop).
But we start from scratch anyway, due to going wider.

[dskira]

I just like to try to resume what I know from the thread:

The vessel is wider, longer and is displacement is around 140 tons
The engine room will 3 m high full beam, accessible from the interior corridor and deck
The pilothouse will be 360 degree with head and sink.
The owner room will be close to the point of least motion of the vessel
The boat will be built of steel. Superstructure can be alu (I think)
The generators are not important, can be replaced.
Batteries is in, for silence and convenience
The range is 5000 nm
It will be go anywhere, built to ram a floating container at full speed.
Ice resistant but not ice class. (I think I understood that way)
The bulbous bow still in discussion but close to be scrap (I think, I am not sure)
CPP mendatory (base of the whole concept of the vessel)
One engine, one shaft, one wheel.
Wet exhaust, or dry/wet exhaust, cooling not decided (I am right on this one?)
Very efficient fuel polishing system.
Tank testing is in. One model allready tested was refused.
Naval architect will re-work the weight estimate due to increase of size.
Engine was 25 liters displacement, can be larger due to increase of displacement from 100 tons to 140 tons.
5 tons was allowed for the mechanical, but can be increase. See above.
A profile was shown, the vessel final profile will be close to the one posted. No nonsense vessel, comercial grade.
The project attracted two interrested parties.
The vessel as to be built with a sistership in the same time.
The price will be 2.4 Euros for the new dimensions
The resale value of the vessel will be not a major concern.

I did'nt put in order, I just read again the whole thread taking notes.
Did I miss or misenderstood some of the aspect of the project status?

Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

I just like to try to resume what I know from the thread:

The vessel is wider, longer and is displacement is around 140 tons
The engine room will 3 m high full beam, accessible from the interior corridor and deck
The pilothouse will be 360 degree with head and sink.
The owner room will be close to the point of least motion of the vesselright
The boat will be built of steel. Superstructure can be alu (I think)Superstructure IS Alu!
The generators are not important, can be replaced.valid for the spares in workshop only! The main gennies have to be quality.
Batteries is in, for silence and convenienceright! About 1500Ah for Hotel load.
The range is 5000 nmmin.
It will be go anywhere, built to ram a floating container at full speed.
Ice resistant but not ice class. (I think I understood that way)
The bulbous bow still in discussion but close to be scrap (I think, I am not sure)The bulb is gone, the hull has ice class.
CPP mendatory (base of the whole concept of the vessel)
One engine, one shaft, one wheel.First point on the list!
Wet exhaust, or dry/wet exhaust, cooling not decided (I am right on this one?) Dry
Very efficient fuel polishing system.Say a basic one (but with the common complement of filters (common in commercial use), that sums up to be very efficient yes.
Tank testing is in. One model allready tested was refused.
Naval architect will re-work the weight estimate due to increase of size.
Engine was 25 liters displacement, can be larger due to increase of displacement from 100 tons to 140 tons.
5 tons was allowed for the mechanical, but can be increase. See above.
A profile was shown, the vessel final profile will be close to the one posted. No nonsense vessel, comercial grade.
The project attracted two interrested parties.
The vessel as to be built with a sistership in the same time.Right
The price will be 2.4 Euros for the new dimensionswith the standard Lugger 23ltr. engine and a CPP
The resale value of the vessel will be not a major concern.

I did'nt put in order, I just read again the whole thread taking notes.
Did I miss or misenderstood some of the aspect of the project status?
Cheers
Daniel
Yes!!!
How could you forget to mention my very sophisticated beef and beer cooling hold?


Now about old engine this last one, I can't resist:The 1929 Krupp engines on the previous RosenKavalier, (I think Haida now, the original name) a very amazing and beautiful vessel. The engines still goind strong, 750 hp @ 250 Rpm. Talk about torque:)

ahhh, these old straight, big monsters with open heads were a piece of art in themselves. And they made a special sort of music.
Say: Katuffel, Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel,Katuffel........
The best sound was made By the old Skoda, I can still hear them at the Bosphorus when some tiny old coaster is passing, music..........

Richard

[Guest62110524]

the majority of ships engines are of the crosshead 2 cycle type

take a look, I think you are confused abt the type the type is the most mechanically efficient of any internal combustion engine up to 50%
http://www.marinediesels.info/Basics/the_2_stroke_crosshead_engine_explanation.htm

go out and listen those engines you hear in the Bosperous arew cross heads, if you know your diesels and , then you can tell how many cyls they have, often they are 3 and 5, these have a beat of their own,
and someone say torque
Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm
that is torque, follow the link
and then there was the opposed piston eng Doxford, still in use many ships today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKWOi0C-sak
I have been to sea as engineer 2nd on small ships eng to 3000 shp , that was long time back, but large diesels I do have great love of
I can see what a truly Great engine, these larger cummins are on the rivers of eu many of the old German engines are being replaced by American, cats cummins
the long list of defunk companies goes on and on Carita originally had a pair of handed Paxmans 500 shp side Alaska diesel will one day be on that list, just another tiny maufacturer using Komatsu blocks

[apex1]

[QUOTE]the majority of ships engines are of the crosshead 2 cycle type
Anyone around here who does´nt know that? But in the range we are talking we do´nt have them (2 stroke) anymore. (as far as I know)
take a look, I think you are confused abt the type
You are the confused here Stu! Cos you try to tell me ship propulsion. For what? I know what I am talking, and I know it from hands on experience. From coal fired steam propulsion to Diesel Electric, from stoking the boilers to commanding the vessel.
I have been to sea as engineer 2nd on small ships eng to 3000 shp , that was long time back
Yes Stu, you told us. And I mentioned that I made my tickets on Icebreakers. And what does that mean now? Right, nothing.

I am a advocate of the the bigger the better philosophy since ages, but within a sensible range. And Cummins is not within the range, the KTA 19 is too small, the 38 is a 12 cyl. and I do not have other than straight six as a propulsion thats a fact. And it is not worth discussing why, because every engineer knows.
The ABC at 90 liter, the Yanmar at 50, the Mitsubishi at 35, are possible choices, yes. But the Lugger 6170 is not the worst choice, there is nothing wrong with the Komatsu base. All Pacific Northwest up and down, loves that engine and you find it in every second fishboat, why?
Richard

[Guest62110524]

I was making atatement abt classes, 100-400, and so on, I was THEN not talking abt your boat, the fact is they were never made for smaller engines, the main advantahe being the huge stroke that could be obtained
we were talking diesels, none of the stuff DAN POSTED WAS REVELANT to your boat in his last photo either
threads lead places, we cant stay on one close parametre all the time , would be a dull lold place
was yapping to a young NA in Tr today, told me abt this new marina, near Bodrum
prces 14m berth 90 days 2400 euros, be empty a long time I would say
i cant rememebr all i say, or where, I am really polite to you, try it:))
works well
never knew abt Ice BREAKERS? which? where and when, thsi is a serious question Do you know the Krasnir?

[Ad Hoc]

dskira

"..No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull..."

It may surprise you but that is what my colleague and I do. My colleague has been doing this for over 40years, me just around 20. I am actually in the process of making my own test tank in my back garden, 25m long. Since i no longer have a pond close to me, nor my colleagues tank (he has one too). The models we make are identical, of course to the real thing, just as any full-on test house. Over the years we have found that our rough and ready tank test result are never more than 5% different with the real full blown expensive one we get done later to satisfy the contract for the client. We basically do exactly what Froude did many years ago...so not surprising the results are consistent. We offer this tank test service to anyone now...a quicker cheaper method of obtain results.

[Ad Hoc]

Richard
"...I choose for longevity, reliability and easy service!.."

The customer is always right, whatever the numbers say....i also fully concur with your appraisal. Very very few customers select this route. Many opt for initial capital costs or rather the cheapest initial capitol costs. Only to their dismay and annoyance in the ensuing years or running costs.

[dskira]

dskira

"..No having often the fund to ask a proper tank testing facility to test, I use model, scaled on size and weight distribution, and tested here on the pound. Sometime self propelled. It is amazing how just that simple test will show me the main character of the hull..."

It may surprise you but that is what my colleague and I do. My colleague has been doing this for over 40years, me just around 20. I am actually in the process of making my own test tank in my back garden, 25m long. Since i no longer have a pond close to me, nor my colleagues tank (he has one too). The models we make are identical, of course to the real thing, just as any full-on test house. Over the years we have found that our rough and ready tank test result are never more than 5% different with the real full blown expensive one we get done later to satisfy the contract for the client. We basically do exactly what Froude did many years ago...so not surprising the results are consistent. We offer this tank test service to anyone now...a quicker cheaper method of obtain results.


Your post is so important to me. I was slighlty reluctant to post about that, knowing that sometime it's confused with playing with toy boat.
Thank you, it make me very happy to know that you are also testing yourself your models.

[Ad Hoc]

"...knowing that sometime it's confused with playing with toy boat..."

We would always get funny looks from poeple (when we did this in the pond before using the tank in the back garden). Comments like..."oh..lovely...you with the model yacht club??"...or some walking by sniggering thinking, "sad grown ups playing with model boats".

To the uninitiated, everything looks odd and of no use...

Nice summary above, by the way.

[apex1]

we were talking diesels, none of the stuff DAN POSTED WAS REVELANT to your boat in his last photo either

Completely wrong Stu sorry! WE WERE TALKING DIESELS--- WE. When will you learn that I am not like you? And I am not like the average boater? I am no yachtie! I do what I do to commercial standards only, or I leave it.
And this is a thread about MY personal boat and a possible sistership. Here we discuss MY boat, MY diesel and MY issues and demands. When you do´nt like that, I have no problem if you leave. But I have a problem with completely senseless crap like marinas in Bodrum or elsewhere. You claim to be polite??? This was your fifth or sixth attempt to hijack the thread.

never knew abt Ice BREAKERS? which? where and when, thsi is a serious question Do you know the Krasnir?
Of course I know the Krasin, who does´nt. Ermak and Krasin are the most famous vessels in that job.
The rest you could know since long, but as I said above, you do´nt read a thread before you contradict.

Ad Hoc...The customer is always right, whatever the numbers say....i also fully concur with your appraisal. Very very few customers select this route. Many opt for initial capital costs or rather the cheapest initial capitol costs. Only to their dismay and annoyance in the ensuing years or running costs.

Thats the crux, not enough people have the balls to contradict the customer, and not enough customers have the backbone to stand a contradiction and follow good advice. I was brought up with our family philosophy that we are too poor to buy cheap. And I learned soon that this was one reason why we were not too poor to buy quality.
But you know, greed is the motor of the business, stinginess and stupidity the fuel.
So, let them buy the cr@p, and let me have what I want, peace in mind and smaller bills. (but bigger engines)

Your post is so important to me. I was slighlty reluctant to post about that, knowing that sometime it's confused with playing with toy boat.
Thank you, it make me very happy to know that you are also testing yourself your models.

What should be wrong with it? As long as one is professional enough to know what he can NOT achieve, every way of trial and error is a acceptable one. And John and I agreed in another thread, that T and E is still a valid method.
Regards
Richard

[wardd]

out of curiosity wouldn't it be simpler to have a return circuit tank where the water is circulated past the model

one possible advantage would be that weights and balance could be changed simply by adding weights to rods that hold the model in place

drag could be monitored by something as simple as a postal scale and accurately too

thats the way boeings wind tunnel was set up

water speed could be changed and a lengthly test performed without running back and forth

baffles would be needed at both ends to smooth out water flow but these could be pvc pipe

if this isnt clear i could do a sketch

[TeddyDiver]

out of curiosity wouldn't it be simpler to have a return circuit tank where the water is circulated past the model
The benefits beeing as you said but some cons too. Slow to fire becouse it just takes more time to get water in motion than air. It also uses a lot more energy to keep it going. More eddies with water create some inaccuracy.

[M-Sasha]

Now after whoosh has failed again to hijack this thread, we should not make it the Tank Test Thread. I did express my dislike with whooshs attempts in a negative feedback.

Can you imagine what this man offers here? Such a ship at that price is a gift. Even a plain commercial boat of that size will normally cost more.
Sasha
To remember what this thread was for:

As many of you know, I am in the final concept phase for my own (ultimate?) passagemaker.
The vessel will be of a rugged, commercial appearence and by no means a "fashionable" boat. All systems will be of commercial grade and at least double redundant (except for the engine there´s only one, a "real" one). My NA just informed me that the hull was originally designed for twin engines, then converted for me to single. Means twin is a option.

Target figures are:
LOA 27,5 m
LWL 25.5 m
BWL 5.6 m
Draught 2.2 m
Range 5.500 nm @ 11.2 kn
Endurance 90 days
Cruising 11.5 kn
Max. 14 kn.

The boat will be build in either Steel/Al or Al/Al (final decision is not made yet). Both options are designed, and cost is almost the same anyway. Ice Class is the question. Not for the high lat. only, but having also floating containers in mind.

Yes, you are right. The wood / Epoxy man is going metal!?! Yahh, for a reason, Wood is not as good on icebreaking or hammering on a reef for hours, as metal. And it happens, no matter how careful or skilled we are. I know from experience. So, whats a perfect choice for a holiday cruise in the Med. must not be the best choice for 20 years of circumnavigating (I hope i have 20 left).

Now, before I start boring the audience, I thought about building a second vessel "side by side", that would save about 12-15% of cost. A wide range of customization of the accommodation is still possible for the second vessel.

I offer anyone here, interested in a custom newbuild to get his one built at the same time, same yard, same cost. We will end up at about 2 million each, due to the fact, that there is no profit, broker or overhead cost. Euro of course. Thats about half the common market price, or about the price of a tiny 64ft plastic boat from a well known US company, not ice (container) capable of course, plastic.

The vessels will be build under my fulltime supervision and survey, classed +100 A5, E2, to IACS. Build will be fully insured against yards bancrupcy, payments will be handled through escrow account of a Swiss notary of your choice.
Estimated building time is 12 month, laying keels is possible within 3-4 month from now.
Yes I will post plans and pictures, but not before construction is underway. My avatar does NOT show any similarity!
Further terms and conditions as personal requests in a private conversation please. Just send me a mail (click my name).

Kindest regards
Richard

So then, lookup your wallet or invite Granny for a night at the Bronx...........:cool:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Richard%2028%20M.%20tug%20yacht.jpg

[Guest62110524]

I do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad zilch
ad zilch, I say look to my gallery when I want to prove a point of to show folk, of course you are far to smallk to admite there is some nice work there
AND YOUR work? none, you sit here all day with nothing better to do than pick holes
you have a tiny following of beginners, the real nice poeple have long seen trhough you, the pros
Saha, go to all my posts, I help all and 90 out of 100 appreciate that
I have mail in my pc that would blow certain folks cred away in this thread
but that is private and , so no I do not hijack theads at all, I could not care less what you or ad zilch say
And you add zilch you are the guy who told bob to cut up a warped girder because it couid not ne saved, he did what I told him to do, and saved a lot of time and money
You simply can not abide that I have you pegged:))
might add that I am proud of what I do, yes room to do better
but thats what this site is all about boatbuilding and so far you have shown us TALK TALK TALK

[Ad Hoc]

I agree with Sasha.

Whoosh's post are always negative to anyone that disagrees with him or points out his prejudices etc or points out he is not contributing to a thread other than to say 'look in my gallery' or talks on subject totally unrelated merely to say 'look what i can do too'.....

[Guest62110524]

do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad zilch
ad zilch, I say look to my gallery when I want to prove a point of to show folk, of course you are far to smallk to admite there is some nice work there
AND YOUR work? none, you sit here all day with nothing better to do than pick holes
you have a tiny following of beginners, the real nice poeple have long seen trhough you, the pros
Saha, go to all my posts, I help all and 90 out of 100 appreciate that
I have mail in my pc that would blow certain folks cred away in this thread
but that is private and , so no I do not hijack theads at all, I could not care less what you or ad zilch say
And you add zilch you are the guy who told bob to cut up a warped girder because it couid not ne saved, he did what I told him to do, and saved a lot of time and money
You simply can not abide that I have you pegged)
and you take the reply to ancient kayakers dinghy query, absolute poppycock, you have never sailed have you? and you are abt as usefull in practical terms as a BSF thread on a Cummins engine

[Ad Hoc]

Qed...

[apex1]

I do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad


I DO MR HEARN ! and I am really pi-sed!

This is a thread about MY boat Hearn, no matter if you like it or not!

i I am really polite to you, try it:))works well

when was that? we completely missed it! I have honoured your "polite" attempts to hijack this thread by reducing some points from your rep! I am sure you will not resist to "answer" the same way!
and:
as usefull in practical terms as a BSF thread on a Cummins engine

Thats much a description of your posts whoooosh.......... And just another proof that you try to hijack the thread! Why did´nt you just edit?

Here you cannot show up with your endless "look at my gallery" rubbish. Your comments are neither professional nor welcome! And they are by no means related to the thread.
Get it in your stubborn head Stu, you are not the person to tell ME anything about building such a complex Yacht. And really absolutely NOTHING about marine Diesels and propulsion. I have restored, operated, repaired, and bought many more of them than you probably have seen.

So, please, let me play here with all the unprofessionals like Ad Hoc, Dskira, Mike Johns, Daiquiry, Alik, Mark, Teddy and all those I have forgotten. And offer your advice to some of the novices, there are some around on the Forum.

Qed... You have to translate that! I doubt Mr Hearn is able to understand Latin Language!

[dskira]

Richard I am sure you know the icebreaker Wal. She is a beauty in my eyes.
The picture is bad I took it from the book Historic Ship.
Let me share some thought about your project since we are talking slow to medium long stroke large diaplacement engine:
Something came to my mind looking at these low speed engines, perhaps the vessel can been slightly heavier without touching the other dimensions. That will give a little more "belly" underwater, more space in the hull, allowing perhaps the 10,000 n.m. range, and a little more inertia if ice has to be separated and will cut in two the freaking container!
I know: the price! it is not a good idea to raise the displacement because it raise the cost!
But in your case I will see some sense to be slightly heavier. You still on the medium to heavy weight range with approximately 250(imperial) displacement/length at 140 tons. (I put a Lwl at 25 meters). You can have some margin to go heavier.
If you go to a price of 3 million euros, at that point it seams not a real concern. 2,4 millions or 3 millions will not push away a real clients.
If the boat cost 2.4 millions Euros the running cost for an average customer will be 240.000 Euros a year. If the customer can just afford that, the boat is already to expensive for him.
The customer should be the ultimate one, the one who has your vision, and the mean to sustain the vision and to go for it all the way. I don't see money an issue at that level.

Daniel

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Icebreaker%20Wal.jpg

[apex1]

Richard I am sure you know the icebreaker Wal. She is a beauty in my eyes.
Daniel

Oh yes Daniel I know her thanks.
In fact I was the one who managed that she was not wrecked in 1989 / 90.
Stettiner Oderwerke, like her bigger sister Stettin.
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f18_stettin_03.jpg
The first of her breed with "Runeberg" stem. 1933 Stettiner Oderwerke
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f24_stettin_09.jpg
Stettin, Preussen, Pommern, Berlin, Swinemünde 1937, the Icebreakers of the Chamber of Commerce in Stettin.
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f30_stettin_15.jpg
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f37_stettin_22.jpg
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f45_stettin_29.jpg
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f46_stettin_30.jpg
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f43_stettin_27.jpg
http://www.dampf-eisbrecher-stettin.de/img/f54_stettin_38.jpg
at work, from 1937 through 1974

Picture below shows WAL design. The typical Runeberg stem again. Stettin was the first ever with that detail.


I will comment on your thoughts later, sounds sensible to go deeper.

Regards
Richard

edited:
To the hull shape:
when you look at the first picture above, you see a typical Icebreaker hull shaped like a eggshell. No ice pressure possible! BUT these vessels are made for one purpose only! When you go in open water, they roll your heart and soul out.
We had a joke on one of them, [QUOTE]it should be forbidden to serve soup for the meals, when we are in open water! The massive open surface would severly endanger the ship to bail water with the funnel.
And it was just half a joke.....

When you look at my avatar you will se a kind of that Runeberg stem again, that is a sensible thing to do (but hard to find a NA who knows about), and I will go that way. The hull, though will not be shaped that way.

Today I received a quotation for a big ABC straight six of 90 liter displacement. And as I said in one of the former posts, it is not that big a difference (about 20%) but the torque is more than twice, and the lifespan I assume more than ten times, that of a KTA 38 Cummins, to mention whooshs favourite! The TBO is 20.000hrs. that is a few miles......and I could do them with a engine running at a tad above idle, consuming ordinary MDO in smaller quantities than we could consume beer.....hmmm, or so.
Two other quotations are awaited, the heaviest engine is 10 tonnes at 100 liter displ.
We would have to house a monster of three meters in height and some 9 -10 tonnes of cast iron, but we would get the marvellous ...Katuffel, Katuffel, Katuffel...Katuffel, Katuffel, Katuffel....................
I agree with your thoughts Daniel, adding some weight and maybe another meter LOA is not so bad and we could accommodate such a beefy engine with ease.
And I fully concur that there is not much a difference between 2,4 and 3 million. If that is a cobblestone for a prospective building partner, he should not play with the idea of having such size of boat. You are dead right with your op. cost estimation, 10% of the newbuilt is what the average boater has to afford.

[Hägar]

Oh god what a great thread! And what a great offer, you must have a backbone apex to discuss your dream in such a forum! I have read all the posting, wht a project, wish I had the money. Dskira said it nice here
This is a very early projection. To be afraid is not the point, the point is to share between us our values and knoweldge or experience to help Richard building the perfect boat. Do you know many professional who are willing to expose their ideas, goal and project on a web paltform to be critisized? It take a lot of balls I tell you. We have to respect that with constructive comments. I do not know if you can plate her chined or bilge rounded in 8 weeks, months or years, again it is not the point.
Yachting is of course about money, but customer respect what the owner of the shipyard will built for himself and stand for his ideas, more that a glossy brochure showing a bikini girl in the bathtub, or with a apron pretending she is in the kitchen:D
By the way, if you have a problem with some members, please keep it private. Inuendoes are ennoying.
And yes I admire very much Robert Clark. He was a gentlemen.
Now my favorit part: the yacht.
My turn to project and give an opinion: beam is a bad thing. It is always possible to avoid to much beam. Beam raise the displacement for a given draft, good draft is one of the most important factor in offshore cruising, beam raise the scantling of the deck, as it raise the weight of the decks, beam need more power to pass thru a very bad sea. But of course lack of beam can generate high period of roll, very unconfortable. A great beam stress the hull to much, and can generate a lack of period of roll, as unconfortable as to much.
This is not for me to say, but I will ask the NA to give me different scenarios with the existing beam. the superstructures are not that high, you can add a little more draft if necessary.
I think at that point I will start a weight estimate to see where you stand.
I find always usefull to do a weight estimate at the beginning, even if its a sketches as a departure of the project. Going with average scantling weight, known machinery and tankage weight and joinery evaluation weight, it is not to much trouble.
This is as I said my very personal opinion, and yes I am biaised;) I like less beam and the 4.55 of the project as now, is very good. Even 5 can be acceptable.
But as go the story, this is my opinion and ................you know:rolleyes:
Daniel

This man seems to be a little bit besides himself and of course not a friend of great projects.
do not think anybody but you thinks that Sasha,
and of course that ad zilch

But from what I have understood nearly ALL here see it like Sasha.
Go ahead apex1, great task.

Hägar

[dskira]

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/34512d1251732971t-offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-wal-grafik.gif

Thank you for the great pictures. I love the way of the cut off on the icebraeker bow. I see what you mean about the shape.
As your vessel will go where you want to go, with the friendly and faithfull 90 liters 6 cylinders engines turning at 350 rpm perhaps, (iddle at 200rpm) the Katuffel Katuffel Katuffel Katuffel will be a song!
This kind of engine never die, this is serius and beautiful in all aspect.
Daniel

[dskira]

Hagar thank you I apreciate.
Yes it is a great project, need to go ahead with all our thought and opinion. Constructives of course.
It is a very good thread, with very good people.
Daniel

[wardd]

on line claims are just that claims and pics in a gallery are just pics in agallery, especially those without any captions of explanation.

over time one gets a sense of whats bs

just let it go for what it is

[dskira]

Whoosh every body I am sure at one point tried to be nice with you, but you are going to far now.
Please refrain personal attack, and if somebody e-mail you, you have no right to divulge his personal e-mail. It is a breach of trust, and that it is the worst thing you can do.
Now I have one question: Are you happy now? the answer as you knows is: NO.
It is never rewarding to insult people, the one who suffers the most is the one who insult. You know why? because it is like booze, it is never enough, and will make your life a living hell because it will disturb your own daily life.
Concentrate on boat, not on people in the forum.
You how an apology to Richard, I am serious you how him a big one. Be a man and do it.
Try to know people, do not manipulate them, do not insult them.
Whoosh, only weak people insult other. I know it by personal experience.
It is time for you to reverse your attitude and be courteous and give some constructive thought.
By the way If you don't like the thread, don't come in. Nobody put a gun on your head saying: you have to post on this thread.
Last, if you don't like someone, please keep it private.
And re-last: please read the posts before answering. Read it, digest it, think about it, let 24 hours to stew, and then answer.
Daniel

[dskira]

This is my two cents in drawing.
This sketch is just to get the ideas flowing for the icebraker go anywhare project.It is not an intention to by pass the naval architect, and I apologize in advance for any inconvenience he will find.
It is a rough repartitons of the accommodation turning around an engine room, work room and crane has a main consideration. I just want to have a great time in this wounderfull project.
And sometime a sketch is better than a million words (that not from me it's from Napoleon I beleive.)
I did that trying to get a sense for myself following the ideas expressed by Richard about the accommodation on such a vessel.
I am perhaps off but worth it to try!
Daniel
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Icebreaker.jpg

[apex1]

This is my two cents in drawing.
This sketch is just to get the ideas flowing for the icebraker go anywhare project.It is not an intention to by pass the naval architect, and I apologize in advance for any inconvenience he will find.
It is a rough repartitons of the accommodation turning around an engine room, work room and crane has a main consideration. I just want to have a great time in this wounderfull project.
And sometime a sketch is better than a million words (that not from me it's from Napoleon I beleive.)
I did that trying to get a sense for myself following the ideas expressed by Richard about the accommodation on such a vessel.
I am perhaps off but worth it to try!
Daniel
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/Icebreaker.jpg

So we can go ahead with a serious design.
Sorry Daniel, my friend, we have to stay within a two deck plus wheelhouse arrangement.
The crane is much to large, a good "Palfinger" is about a third of what you have drawn.
I am willing to be extremely conservative on the propulsion side, but the rest has to be highest high tech. For what would I be willing to waste my money, if not for the best? And the best is the most proven, the least failing, the one the commercial world relies on.
Marine Electronics for example have a natural name. But I am sure that there are hundreds of contradictions.
Not if you ask how many miles they did with the crap they prefer.
A Radar for example is a Furuno, a Gps, is a Furuno, a .......
leave it, many know better....

[MikeJohns]

...
Thank you, it make me very happy to know that you are also testing yourself your models.


Resistance tests over a range of speeds are quite informative, even a pole with a pulley, and a weight on the end of the towline with different weights timed over a set distance is very useful.

I like the idea of Johns back yard test tank and probably all of us have dreamed of this.

Once you have done some basic testing you can see which prediction method fits the hull and then you can use resistance prediction software for minor change investigation without continually rebuilding the physical model. but this is worthy of a thread of it's own at some stage .


Richard
I have not forgotten this thread I have been very busy and remain so for a while. I'm sorry you received personal attacks, they never serve a useful purpose and just leave bitterness which Daniel sums up quite well.

I agree with you about accessible side decks and comfortable rough weather berths and it's good to see your appreciation of those attributes.


You also need to look after the chef too much slamming fwd and the cakes don't rise :)

[apex1]

Resistance tests over a range of speeds are quite informative, even a pole with a pulley, and a weight on the end of the towline with different weights timed over a set distance is very useful.

I like the idea of Johns back yard test tank and probably all of us have dreamed of this.

Once you have done some basic testing you can see which prediction method fits the hull and then you can use resistance prediction software for minor change investigation without continually rebuilding the physical model. but this is worthy of a thread of it's own at some stage .


Richard
I have not forgotten this thread I have been very busy and remain so for a while. I'm sorry you received personal attacks, they never serve a useful purpose and just leave bitterness which Daniel sums up quite well.

I agree with you about accessible side decks and comfortable rough weather berths and it's good to see your appreciation of those attributes.


You also need to look after the chef too much slamming fwd and the cakes don't rise :)

Who was asked to complain here daily? You are welcome on any schedule.;)


The chef will have its area at a very convenient location, at the main deck, be sure. Ähh.... mainly I will be the one to prepare meals.

[dskira]

You also need to look after the chef too much slamming fwd and the cakes don't rise


This is very true, and as said Richard, the chef is the one preparing the meals:)

we have to stay within a two deck plus wheelhouse arrangement

Ok an other of my two cents:
Two deck plus the pilothouse in this size will make sense since all accommodation can be spread longitudinaly and using the greatest beam.
The galley can be close to the middle next to the dinning saloon on the main deck, an other small galley with a microwave can be down bellow to the crew compartment in their mess area.
The librairy can be next to the master stateroom which can be on the main deck too.
The space in the hull can be reserved to guest and crew.
By the way, I don't remember if it was posted, how many guest will be invited?
From almost the half of the vessel to the transom, can be reserved to engine room, work room and store room, and the rudder room.
Perhaps an oversize flush deck hatch can be on the aft deck, giving easier access to the work room for oversize operation like a large repair on the generators. Note that I didn't say engine, a 90 liters @ 300 rpm never brooke!
Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

mike

"...I like the idea of Johns back yard test tank and probably all of us have dreamed of this..."

When i finish it, i'll post/send some pix if you like? (my autumn winter project)

[dskira]

mike

"...I like the idea of Johns back yard test tank and probably all of us have dreamed of this..."

When i finish it, i'll post/send some pix if you like? (my autumn winter project)

I am talking for myself, but I am sure everybody will be greatly interrested to see your facility.
That will be great.
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

This is what I call a ENGINE ! A perfect choice.
Why? Hmm, they deliver the complete propulsion incl. CPP and, can you imagine, they measure the power at the prop

So you get 600hp when you pay 600......

[Frosty]

Looks like the transmission runs in engine oil and is not separate.

More suitable for a maned engine room.

Don't like turbos, KISS

[dskira]

This is what I call a ENGINE ! A perfect choice.
Why? Hmm, they deliver the complete propulsion incl. CPP and, can you imagine, they measure the power at the prop

So you get 600hp when you pay 600......

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/34608d1251943345t-offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-grenaa-diesel.jpg

I am not very knoweldgeble in engine, but it doesn't seams to be an ABC DX, is this a Grenaa? Is the oil pan separated or underneath and I can't see it?
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/34608d1251943345t-offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-grenaa-diesel.jpg

I am not very knoweldgeble in engine, but it doesn't seams to be an ABC DX, is this a Grenaa? Is the oil pan separated or underneath and I can't see it?
Cheers
Daniel

Yes Daniel,
the 6F24TK Grenaa Diesel 81,5Ltr. displ. 660hp at 500rpm, dry sump.

this is a more "modern" version the 6LS24 95Ltr. 680Hp at 500rpm

I wait for the quotation.

[dskira]

Yes Daniel,
the 6L24 Grenaa Diesel 88Ltr. displ. 600hp at 500rpm, dry sump.

this is a more "modern" version the 6LS24 95Ltr. 600Hp at 500rpm

I wait for the quotation.

Sweet! Quite a nice engine.
Dry sump means can be mounted slightly lower on bed, less danger of starvation of oil in the engine, and better filtration of the oil, and better access to the oil pumps. And the beauty is they offers the whole package, a big headeach less to find parts from different manufacturers.
I find Googleling this old plate taken from a danish mineweeper.
Daniel

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2009-7/1342821/greena.jpg

[apex1]

Sweet! Quite a nice engine.
Dry sump means can be mounted slightly lower on bed, less danger of starvation of oil in the engine, and better filtration of the oil, and better access to the oil pumps. And the beauty is they offers the whole package, a big headeach less to find parts from different manufacturers.
I find Googleling this old plate taken from a danish mineweeper.
Daniel


Nice plate, same engine but just half of the cyl.s.
I have received the quotation.

Ähemm, ähh, ja.
Let me say it so: they offer a outstanding good quality................................


















at 550.000 US$

[dskira]

Nice plate, same engine but just half of the cyl.s.
I have received the quotation.

Ähemm, ähh, ja.
Let me say it so: they offer a outstanding good quality................................


















at 550.000 US$

Well considering the whole, the price is not that high. Just the CPP on that range of power cost a hefty amount with the shaft perhaps in the $150,000 range, then the tranny if needed, but I am not sure you need any reduction, so the engine will be around $350,000. The air tanks, compressors starter, oil tank with oil pumps, filters will be around $50,000
So the total of $550,000 is not bad.
wild guess of course.
But considering the 88 liters engine it is only $6,550 per liters which is the price of the Yanmer 9hp 1 liter:D
This is of course a far fetch comparaison, just for the sake of it!
Honnestly for a let say 3 millions Euros ($4.500,000) vessel, this engine complete with shafting system will represente 12% of the whole ship, not that bad.
In the long run (a normal highspeed diesel small displacement high power marine diesel engine need to be replaced after 5000 hours) this engine being certainly raited 8000 hours per year of utilisation, will save a bundle of money.
It's hard to send a check of this value, but looking at the big picture I see it as a very good deal.
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Yes Daniel, you are right, due to the fact that everything is much bigger than usual, of course it comes at higher prices. A gearbox that size has about two tonnes and comes for 50.000€, a Al Bronce prop this size is about the same. At 500rpm I do´nt need a transmission, you see that right.
And as I mentioned in a former post, when I calculate the cost over 20 years of operation it will be quite cheap. The TBO is 20.000 hrs! Thats 4 times the lifespan of the high revving "modern" Diesels. And quite often the first overhaul is not much more than new piston rings and some new bearings on these Monsters.
The engine offered is btw. 81,5 Liter displacement and 8.500kN torque, I calculated the cyl. displ. wrong.
The airstart vessels are not included, but thats not the world. Two tanks 75ltr at 30 bar and a compressor. The additional hassle with the inspection of the tanks / bottles every second year hurts more.
But what are we doing here?
We are building a ship around the engine.................................
Sometimes madness has a nice face, I still love it.

Richard

[TeddyDiver]

Two tanks 75ltr at 30 bar and a compressor. The additional hassle with the inspection of the tanks / bottles every second year hurts more.
What country you'll register? There's quite big differences in pressure vessel regs btw different countries. On the other hand it's allmost as easy to have a few days course and to become an instructor.
Inspector of course :)

[apex1]

What country you'll register? There's quite big differences in pressure vessel regs btw different countries. On the other hand it's allmost as easy to have a few days course and to become an instructor.

Have not choosen the flag state yet, but British overseas Territories are usually not a bad choice (like Cayman).
The idea to make a license is worth to be thought about thanks. I have a boiler operator and inspection license (a pressure vessel too) but do´nt know if its still valid and if it covers this situation. We´ll see.

Richard


wow this was my 2000th post.......

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

If you're going to go "all up" for the main engines and structure (rightly so), is it worth going for a 'lesser' Flag state?

[TeddyDiver]

is it worth going for a 'lesser' Flag state?
Not talkin on Richards behalf, but some countries have ridiculous regs of some inspections. Not a problem if staying in homeport but being away occasionally sailing another ocean..

[Ad Hoc]

ah..what i mean is...a 'lesser' Flag state may not give the level and quality one would like, i.e. is it really worth the hassle just to save a few pennies....after paying so much for propulsion and structure etc..why go for a 'cheaper' (lesser) Flag state, is what I mean.

[TeddyDiver]

Some pennies ain't the issue (in my case anyway) The real problem is the distance. If you are some thousands nm away from the closest authorized (in certain country) inspector it's difficult to have the annual stamp..

[apex1]

Richard
If you're going to go "all up" for the main engines and structure (rightly so), is it worth going for a 'lesser' Flag state?

Your thoughts are right, BUT...
The vessel will be registered as a commercial, not yacht. There I would have issues in Germany, GB or the like. The "lesser" Flag States like Cayman, offer a tax free status on vessels income, and do´nt care if the income is zero! If that would be the case in Germany, I would loose the commercial status after one or two years.
Cayman moreover offers all the benefits a prime country has to offer. Full British Consular services and Royal Naval assistance and protection for Cayman-flagged vessels are available worldwide. Modern, comprehensive maritime legislation based on English Common Law.
I do´nt talk substandard Flags like Panama or Liberia.
Did you know for example that the head office of Antigua and Barbuda Register is located in Oldenburg Germany?

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Ive never used cayman Flag state before....but does indeed sound comprehensive. So long as the surveyors are up to it.....which i think they are. They offer huge salaries, tax-free...as i know an ex-LR plan approval chap who went there..loves it.

I used to be located near an office of Carnival line, i knew the chief technical manager, ex-LR surveyor (i've meet loads of them in the past 20years). A lot of their ships seem to be registered there, maybe the only reason is because they wanted nice trips to the Caymans to sort out technical "issues"..?? :)

[marshmat]

Canada Steamship Lines used to be famous for using Liberian, Bahamian and other flag-of-convenience registries.... even on ships that were physically incapable of leaving the Great Lakes. 'Tis all about the money.

Still, there are plenty of nice, small countries with fairly modern laws that will happily register a vessel, and whose flags will garner somewhat more respect when flown off the stern.

Richard, I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute to this thread (your project is well outside my expertise and budget), but I'm following this one with great interest :)

[apex1]

Canada Steamship Lines used to be famous for using Liberian, Bahamian and other flag-of-convenience registries.... even on ships that were physically incapable of leaving the Great Lakes. 'Tis all about the money.
Still, there are plenty of nice, small countries with fairly modern laws that will happily register a vessel, and whose flags will garner somewhat more respect when flown off the stern.
Richard, I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute to this thread (your project is well outside my expertise and budget), but I'm following this one with great interest :)

Actually the complete US fleet is registered in Liberia, Marshall islands or Bahama. But that does not make them convenient Flag States for every purpose. Cayman (and other UK territories like the Manx or channel Islands) are seen as UK, and you are protected by British law and British Navy. I once had Georgetown as my homeport it was all to my satisfaction. Cyprus now becomes a alternative, but had a very bad reputation in the past. So I think I´ll fly the Red Ensign again.
The prime classification societies LR, GL, DNV and ABS are all contractors of the MACI and we can find them worldwide. RINA and BV btw. are not considered to be "prime", by many authorities and insurance companies!
Matt, you are very welcome here, and I do´nt think this is out of your expertise, your thoughts above have shown it.
Richard

again some anonymus hit me with negative feedback (I cannot identify for what), is that just jealousy? Are there people which cannot stand that others discuss a complex project of a bit higher value in the open thread? sad, really.......sad.

[marshmat]

Neg rep be damned.

And I have nothing against the Caymans or other reputable territories. There were a lot of eyebrows raised around here, though, when Great Lakes freighters too big to get out the St. Lawrence Seaway to the Atlantic dropped their Canadian flags in favour of Liberian.

I was thinking last night about those friggin' massive 80+ litre diesels that have been mentioned on here. Given that:
1) This is a "go anywhere" boat, and
2) It will apparently be built sturdily enough to run for many decades,

I think it's worth asking questions about the fuel. Will this be an engine that requires clean, clear #2 diesel oil? Or will it be able to handle a bit of variety? I'm not trying to start a political debate, but fuel prices vary greatly from place to place, and some countries are running into shortages or are starting to aggressively push biodiesel and other alternative fuels. If you need to top off the tanks in a country where some kind of biofuel happens to be $1 a litre and petroleum diesel is twice that- a potentially realistic scenario in some places- it would really suck to have to go with the more expensive option.

Also on the fuel note- I seem to recall a brief mention of the fuel system a few pages back, lost in a bit of thread clutter. On a $550,000 powertrain that may have to be fed from sketchy gas docks in out-of-the-way territories, I wonder if one of those Alfa Laval centrifugal fuel cleaners might be worthwhile. At $15k and up they're way too much for my kind of boat, but might be justified on a cruiser like this one.

[apex1]

And how much you can contribute, you see?.... thanks for the questions!
Yes this engine can burn ordinary MDO up to 6 centistoke, as well as veggy oil (has to be mixed though). And yes there will be a Alfa Laval fuel centrifuiiiiiiiiii...separator, the left one. They start at 10.000$ btw. that means 5.000€ for a yard, or for me.

Regards
Richard

[dskira]

I am not sure is because I am getting cold here in Maine, but I have some kind of obsession toward the heating on boat.
So what kind of heating thru out the boat you plan to put: the classic hot water radiator with a oil furnace and circulating pump, or the forced air, or something else?
I had the experience that using the air condioned in reverse to use as a heating works when it's just slightly cold on the morning, but do not work in case of real cold temperature.
The cold come again here, it make me think about that!
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Kubola central heater on water circuit. Same circuit is used as chilled water circ. for air conditioning.
Heater is connected to jacket water of main eng. both to heat main before starting and to gain hot water from eng.
The Kubola can burn MDO (if set up for that) a ordinary Diesel heater cannot!
Air ducts in a boat are a mad idea (not for ventilation of course)! They transport noise as good as heat! And they produce massive problems when passing frames (too large diameter).
Regards
Richard

[dskira]

Kubola central heater on water circuit. Same circuit is used as chilled water circ. for air conditioning.
Heater is connected to jacket water of main eng. both to heat main before starting and to gain hot water from eng.
The Kubola can burn MDO (if set up for that) a ordinary Diesel heater cannot!
Air ducts in a boat are a mad idea (not for ventilation of course)! They transport noise as good as heat! And they produce massive problems when passing frames (too large diameter).
Regards
Richard

The kubola is indeed a very good furnace. They are imported here in the West Coast and a lot of yacht use it.
Well thought system.
Cheers
Daniel

[M-Sasha]

Nice to see the thread is going ahead on a stable course. The troublemaker is gone.

Sasha

[dskira]

Good morning Sasha, nice to hear from you.
Yes the thread is back to the subject at hand.
Cheers
Daniel

[wardd]

an idea i had was to add a microphone in the engine room to listen to the engine room sounds and a cheap oscilloscope for times you wish quiet, after a while you become adept at recognizing a normal pattern

plus a panning camera

[marshmat]

That would actually be pretty cool, wardd.... a simple but functional PC-based oscilloscope can be had for $300 or so, some of these have FFT capability. Mount a few microphones and little piezo vibration sensors in key areas of the engine room, and switch your 'scope between them now and then to see if any unusual vibrations or noises have cropped up.... not for everyone, of course, but to an engineering physicist (myself) this screams "way cool".... and a power pan/tilt webcam can be had for $100 or so, also worth having in an unmanned machinery space.

[apex1]

The oscilloscope is really a nice idea! The camera mandatory anyway. The mic.s you do´nt need, you hear immediately when the beat goes wrong! After a few days one is so familiar with the "heartbeat" of such engine, one can even tell the rpm pretty exactly. And I will not dampen the "sound" to death (which would be not easy on such a displacement).

[Ad Hoc]

Some of the 'higher end' engines provide this. We had all sorts of data/telemetry provided on a GT for a ferry we did. vibrations in mm/s vertical and horizontal acc's etc....since the engine wasn't cheap, this cost was peanuts in reality!..was cool watching on sea trails...but after than no one bothered!...of course until a problem occurs, which is where it is great...just print off the data.

[apex1]

This is a "high end" engine John! In fact it is nearly 3 meter high!
No, there will be no further complication added to a system choosen for its simplicity and reliability.
As mentioned, a camera is mandatory and sensible but nothing else.
You can hear when a ten tonnes system runs wrong, be sure. And the common setup of temp sensors tell you much too.
And although that is a UMS it does not mean the engineroom is not inspected regularely (hourly at sea).
All of you, who have ever been out at sea for long cruises under motor will confirm that one develops a sense for the ships noise in every sea condition. And you are immediately alerted when that pattern changes, even at sleep.
A bit aside:
I once had a couple of children as summer holiday guests aboard a old steamer. Their accommodation was below the foredeck, but the only head was amidships in the superstructure on the maindeck. My cabin was abaft the wheelhouse one deck above the main deck structure. There was a lot of noise when the boat was bumping against the pier fenders, when the passing ships made swell, the whining props, ropes under stress, and so on. When one of the children went to the loo at night I stood upright in my bed! I did hear the bare feet on the wooden deck, a noise which did not fit the pattern.
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Richard

I know what you mean... When on sea trials, going into the engine room, aft/jet void and even when in the saloon or up in the wheelhouse,....the vibrations felt, when 'wrong', are instantly recognisable as being 'wrong' and something is not right.

[apex1]

Some update on the engines:
these pictures show the same engines as a refit on the MS Balmoral.....here (http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030505/index.htm)
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030522/Grenaa18.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030505/Gren07.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030505/Gren14.jpg
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030505/Gren15.jpg

Exhaust pipe! made at the yard
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030522/Ex02.jpg

Cyl. Casting
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030121/IMG_0513.JPG

Solid piece...
http://www.btinternet.com/~Paddlers/MVBalmoral/regen/030313/Balmoral006.jpg

enjoy

[wardd]

my concept of simplicity is is at the bottom its as simple as can be to get the job done

take modern warships as an example chuck full of electronics and computers without which its a bobbing drifting object

so if anyone comes up with an efective jamming device and has old fashioned optical fire control wins the battle.

im not against computers, i assemble my own to get what i want

so when you have the base then adding layers of complex systems that can be isolated, i have no problem with that, ie its ok to have electronic engine control as long as theres a manual backup that can be imediately put into use

with mechanics you can diagnose a problem with a flash lite ( torch for our less civilized brethren) and 2 eyeballs, one eyeball if thats all you have

[apex1]

Whats a jamming device?

I agree that adding some gimmicks may be fun (and sensible too), but when you have followed the thread (and you did) you have noticed that I offer a 6 million boat at 2,4 million, maybe at the end it is a 7mio boat at 3mio. But there is not much space to play with toys at extra cost!?

Richard

[wardd]

my main point was take care of the basics first

[apex1]

my main point was take care of the basics first

Oh, yes I do, be sure! You might see that when you are thinking about my choosen engine!?!

Still do´nt know what a jamming device is? Would you be so kind? Do´nt let me die dumb.

[wardd]

something that would scramble all the electronics, such as a super directed emf pulse

not beyond possibility, it can be done on a small scale

put a calculator in a microwave and see if itll work after the smoke clears

[marshmat]

And that, wardd, is part of the reason I find Richard's focus on simplicity and mechanical reliability so refreshing.... that directed EMF pulse that screws up every electronic device within a hundred metres? Yup, lightning is exactly that.

Given the choice between a flashlight and a digital interface for troubleshooting purposes, I will almost always pick the former....

[Tad]

It would seem that there are many thousands of lightly used engines for sale in the world......

http://www.maritimeequipment.com/ShowAd.aspx?id=106022

[apex1]

It would seem that there are many thousands of lightly used engines for sale in the world......


That is right, thank you TAD! Here too:DIESELS (http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/)

But (fortunately) not those old fashioned monsters like the ABC, Callesen or Grenaa. They last too long to be for sale!
And I will use the boat quite extensive all year round, so a new one is the better choice anyway.

Regards
Richard

[Tad]

Lots of monsters for sale here http://www.fornaes.dk/english/engines.php

Engine, gearbox, CPP prop, nozzle, thrusters, complete pilot houses!

[apex1]

Lots of monsters for sale here http://www.fornaes.dk/english/engines.php

Engine, gearbox, CPP prop, nozzle, thrusters, complete pilot houses!

Yeah, shipbreakers, they have it all. You know the "Alang Bazar" ?

Fornaes is a Neighbour of "Grenaa Diesels" in Grenaa, Denmark. And I am in Germany today, maybe I can manage to go up there tomorrow, have a look.

Regards
Richard

[mgriffin]

Apex, I might one day be as rich and smart as you if I become a successful boat builder. People pay a lot to have a 20 meter wooden boat custom built, and that way I could expand my company into a shipyard with the help of a loan. First thing I'm going to do when I have at least 10 million dollars, I am going to build a steamer of 66 meters in length, like the one in the picture. That will be my personal boat, and I am probably going to live on it. If you are still alive when I accomplish all of this, then me and you could team up. I build your ships, and you pay me.

[MikeJohns]

Yeah, shipbreakers, they have it all.

Richard
It's worth looking around the brokerage too, I have seen several out of survey vessels that were purchased for their machinery at give-away prices.
Ex navy vessel tenders can be a good source of engines and other gear and their engines are often in very good condition . Even the stripped hull can often be sold or given away as use for a fish farm floating shed or something similar.

just a thought

[apex1]

Thank you Mike.
This one I guess will be my last newbuild, so let me have the stuff new please. If it will be build.

[apex1]

It became a bit quiet around here for some reason.

Now I am still not sure if I will build the boat and there is no serious building partner left by so far, but if there will one come up, I will keep my promise of course.

Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Have you thought of approaching 'other' shipyards directly...just to see what interest you get?

[apex1]

Have you thought of approaching 'other' shipyards directly...just to see what interest you get?

No, I did´nt contact other yards. And I am not sure how to understand the question?

[Ad Hoc]

Richard
Why not contact several yards directly, with your outline proposal, and see what response you get? No harm in asking...yards are not exactly working to capacity right now, may be fruitful....you never know. Since not many forth coming via this thread...just a thought

[apex1]

Well, John.........not working to capacity..........
mainly for that reason I made this offer! I want to keep my "own" staff busy and qualified!
And I´m sure you, and the other pro´s here did assume that from the very beginning.
Richard

[TeddyDiver]

A dealer specialized such vessels could be a far better than another yard.. Some of them have a quite good knowledge of possible buyers. Even with a reasonable comission added it would still be a bargain..

[apex1]

Good thought Teddy, but brokers look for a price as high as possible to get a fee as high as possible!
But it maybe worth to talk to one or the other.

[M-Sasha]

It became a bit quiet around here for some reason.

Now I am still not sure if I will build the boat and there is no serious building partner left by so far, but if there will one come up, I will keep my promise of course.

Richard

Do it Richard! Go on develop it and build it. You need a boat any way when you do retire.

Sasha

[marshmat]

Richard,

I hate to hear talk of giving up on a project.... even if, at times, that may be the only practical answer.

What you're proposing is about 80 times too much boat for my present needs.... needless to say, I'm not a potential build partner and don't personally know anyone who would be. There's not a huge market for this sort of thing, although the folks who are attracted to such boats probably make good customers. (Witness the Dashews' experience with the FPB 83- only after the prototype was built and had logged a few passages, was there enough of a client base to put a 64' version into series production. Now that the design is well known, there's a looong waiting list to get one.) I would like to see you end up happy at the end of all this, though....

[apex1]

Thank you Sasha, thank you Matt!

It is not about giving up, just at present I do not feel much need and sense in this task, and you know why.
If there was a partner I would have the obligation in doing it, that would be easier.
But I must say I was a bit too lazy for some weeks anyway, I should have done the interior drawings to go the next steps and to attract some people (and to get the NA busy again).
So I must get up the old bones and do some sketches.

[hoytedow]

Good luck.

[apex1]

Good luck.

Thank you, what I need more at present is some drive, motivation........:rolleyes:

[Ad Hoc]

the € (Euro if this sysmbol doesn't come out) is getting stroing again, if you are buying parts outside of the Euro zone, nice and cheap now :)

[bntii]

Thanks to all for a great thread. It is a delight to read- struck though with the aspiration we all share to create a capable vessel suited to our own ideals and needs while it informs how the process is accomplished among peers.

Regards

[Frosty]

Thanks to all for a great thread. It is a delight to read- struck though with the aspiration we all share to create a capable vessel suited to our own ideals and needs while it informs how the process is accomplished among peers.

Regards

Whats happened? has he managed to sell one, Oh I see given up.

Well its hard to build a boat, its very hard for those without a ship yard and the contacts and connections.

For those of us that have done this raise your glasses, it appears we are as good if not better than the professionals.

Is it true that 1 boat costs 1 boat but 2 boats cost 1.5?

[apex1]

Thank you.
Thanks to all for a great thread. It is a delight to read- struck though with the aspiration we all share to create a capable vessel suited to our own ideals and needs while it informs how the process is accomplished among peers.
Regards

Nice words, though it lasted only 50 minutes then the opposition had to add their nonsense:


Whats happened? has he managed to sell one, Oh I see given up.

There was no intention to "sell" a boat and no one has given anything up by so far!

Well its hard to build a boat, its very hard for those without a ship yard and the contacts and connections.

Well, yu see it is not easy even when you have it all, as is the case here!

For those of us that have done this raise your glasses, it appears we are as good if not better than the professionals.

In your case I´m sure about that! Cheers!!!

Is it true that 1 boat costs 1 boat but 2 boats cost 1.5?

No that is not true and nobody said that.

May I ask Frosty; is there someone holding a gun at your head forcing you to spill your cr@p here? Why do you come here every few weeks to spam? In all the years on this platform I have not seen you contributing in a sensible manner (and I doubt you are able), just senseless contradiction and premature spam, spam, spam.......
We know you do´nt like the place, you do´nt like Icebreakers, Hayabusas (you cannot even spell it), and you do´nt like me (I cannot express how happy I am with that!!!), why do´nt you ignore this thread?

Richard

[dskira]

It became a bit quiet around here for some reason.

Now I am still not sure if I will build the boat and there is no serious building partner left by so far, but if there will one come up, I will keep my promise of course.

Richard

I will not see that to a "giving up" situation.
A project of this maginitude can have some high and low.
Finding the right partner, dealing with the whole creation, organisation and the financing system is a complicate matter, and even if it is very rewarding to have all the creative power, it still a hard realisation.
It can take years before the first keel is laid. I don't see that as important.
I always find the time is not that important after all, sometime a good project can be made better after a pose. Sometime the right partner comes after years, the wrong one to early.
Anyway I hope we all will continue to give our thought about this ultimate no nonsense exploration vessel.

Daniel

[Ad Hoc]

as Dsikra noted, during the life time of a project of this magnitude there are the inevitable highs and lows, in terms of financial, time, stress, procurement, information etc etc etc...

So long as you keep going (whatever the pace) it will keep going and you will finish :)

But must get all the peices of the puzzle in place first before rushing off...no point starting half-cocked!

[brian eiland]

....The airstart vessels are not included, but thats not the world. Two tanks 75ltr at 30 bar and a compressor. The additional hassle with the inspection of the tanks / bottles every second year hurts more.
Richard
Appears to be a number of folks on this subject thread that have considerable experience with 'bigger' diesel engines. I do not have.

My question is about air-starting. I assume this method is used for larger engines, and is itself a smaller, lighter package than electric starting would be.
But isn't this method harder on the engine overall...more of a shock loading??

I thought I remember reading about a number of truckers who were going back to electric starting for their rigs as a result of these extra loadings?

[apex1]

Appears to be a number of folks on this subject thread that have considerable experience with 'bigger' diesel engines. I do not have.

My question is about air-starting. I assume this method is used for larger engines, and is itself a smaller, lighter package than electric starting would be.
But isn't this method harder on the engine overall...more of a shock loading??

I thought I remember reading about a number of truckers who were going back to electric starting for their rigs as a result of these extra loadings?

No Brian,

the air is compressed to 20 bar usually. That is not a high load on a piston.
But there are several disadvantages of the air start too. The bottles have a high volume, much more than the equivalent of starter batteries would have. (though they weigh less).
And the air vessels have to be inspected and classed every other year. (cost)
When the air suction brings too much salt spray or humidity into the vessel, they corrode fast from the inside.
Least, the compressor is running permanently (coupled) and makes noise!

But nothing (except Steam Engines) can compare with a fat, high displacement 6 cyl. inline Diesel. They last for ever and eternity, especially when connected with a CPP, as in this case.

Just a few weeks ago I have seen the old Sulzer´s on board "Pasabahce" in Istanbul. They are on duty for more than 50 years now, day in, day out crossing the Marmara Sea. The old engineer told me, there was never a single failure or severe problem with them in all those years! And the books are complete since launch.
Thats what counts.

Regards
Richard

[Marco1]

As many of you know, I am in the final concept phase for my own (ultimate?) passagemaker.
The vessel will be of a rugged, commercial appearence and by no means a "fashionable" boat. All systems will be of commercial grade and at least double redundant (except for the engine there´s only one, a "real" one). My NA just informed me that the hull was originally designed for twin engines, then converted for me to single. Means twin is a option.

Target figures are:
LOA 27,5 m
LWL 25.5 m
BWL 5.6 m
Draught 2.2 m
Range 5.500 nm @ 11.2 kn
Endurance 90 days
Cruising 11.5 kn
Max. 14 kn.

The boat will be build in either Steel/Al or Al/Al (final decision is not made yet). Both options are designed, and cost is almost the same anyway. Ice Class is the question. Not for the high lat. only, but having also floating containers in mind.

Yes, you are right. The wood / Epoxy man is going metal!?! Yahh, for a reason, Wood is not as good on icebreaking or hammering on a reef for hours, as metal. And it happens, no matter how careful or skilled we are. I know from experience. So, whats a perfect choice for a holiday cruise in the Med. must not be the best choice for 20 years of circumnavigating (I hope i have 20 left).

Now, before I start boring the audience, I thought about building a second vessel "side by side", that would save about 12-15% of cost. A wide range of customization of the accommodation is still possible for the second vessel.

I offer anyone here, interested in a custom newbuild to get his one built at the same time, same yard, same cost. We will end up at about 2 million each, due to the fact, that there is no profit, broker or overhead cost. Euro of course. Thats about half the common market price, or about the price of a tiny 64ft plastic boat from a well known US company, not ice (container) capable of course, plastic.

The vessels will be build under my fulltime supervision and survey, classed +100 A5, E2, to IACS. Build will be fully insured against yards bancrupcy, payments will be handled through escrow account of a Swiss notary of your choice.
Estimated building time is 12 month, laying keels is possible within 3-4 month from now.

Yes I will post plans and pictures, but not before construction is underway. My avatar does NOT show any similarity!

Further terms and conditions as personal requests in a private conversation please. Just send me a mail (click my name).

Kindest regards
Richard

So then, lookup your wallet or invite Granny for a night at the Bronx...........:cool:

Hi Richard, I like your project a lot. Best wishes to find a partner.

I have a suggestion that may save you about a million or so.
Get it built by either Seahorse marine in China or Asboat Yacht Building, in Izmir Turkey. Both countries are a good proposition to spend a year or so to oversea the construction.
http://www.seahorseyachts.com/
http://www.asboat.com/

[mark775]

Richard has boatyards in Turkey, Marco.

[Marco1]

Well John, as mentioned earlier I am still open and much depends on the further discussions with a building "Partner"

To the single or twin engine question let me say, the boat will go well over 13kn due to the hefty 500kw engine. Lugger 23ltr. 1450 rpm or Mitsubishi 25ltr. 1350rpm, both 6cyl. and 500kw. Yes I know..............................

Regards
Richard

CAn I ask why the choice of engine? You don't like MTU?

[Marco1]

Richard has boatyards in Turkey, Marco.

I see...I was just saying because Seahorse makes the Diesel Duck 55 for some 4 or 500,ooo in china.

[marshmat]

Marco, dskira - please don't start, guys. That sort of thing can be saved for PMs if necessary, or better yet not written at all.

CAn I ask why the choice of engine? You don't like MTU?
Richard has expressed a strong preference for a traditional large displacement, slow-revving straight six, of a style not found in the lineups of many manufacturers. For most yachts I'd say the kind of engine he wants is overweight overkill, but for the stated mission it seems to be an appropriate choice.

Re. electric vs. air start: IMHO, it's best to just stick with what the engine manufacturer designed for the engine in question. They know the thing better than anyone. As any railroad guy will tell you, big diesels are hard to start and stop. (For some reason, many truckers think the same about their engines, even though these can be quite easily cranked over electrically in a few seconds- I'm amazed by how much fuel is wasted and how many engines go in for early rebuilds because truckers leave the 400 hp diesel idling overnight to run an air conditioner that draws maybe 4 hp.) There is something to be said for a good auxiliary power system if you are going to be using a big diesel as your prime mover.

[dskira]

Marco, dskira - please don't start, guys. That sort of thing can be saved for PMs if necessary, or better yet not written at all.


Marshmat you are absolutly right, and I deleted my post.
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Marco

both of these yards I know personally well, and both are far below my level, very far. Grenaa Diesel is the engine, if...
and:


This offer is not valid any longer!

I closed down the Steel yard, due to the market situation. And building at any other yard does´nt have the advantages we would have had here. The average market price of such a yacht is in the 10 mio € region! My offer was based on the possibility to get it ALL done in house and at net cost. And of course one reason was to keep the labourers employed.
Did not happen, so what.
Just, one out there missed to get a boat for almost the material cost. Bad luck....

The fact that I lost my Children in September still lets me think about the sense of building that vessel, I´m nor sure.

But when I build it, I definetively will not post anything here!

The dumb attacks and several idiotic attempts to hijack the thread by some uneducated, jealous ****** make it unattractive to share such plans and thoughts.


My special thanks to Daniel Skira, Ad Hoc, Mike Johns, Matt Marsh, Teddy Diver, Mark, bntii and all the others contributing in a sensible manner, I did really appreciate!


Regards
Richard

[Marco1]

Well, Richard, I did not know any of your personal history, the fact that you had your own shipyard nor the loss of your children. I happen to know those two shipyards because they build Diesel Ducks on a budget.
My interest in this project was genuine and my questions and suggestions likewise. I thought MTU was the best you can get.

I discovered this tread a day or so ago and skipped most of it because the toss and turns of some post makes it most unpalatable. There seems to be a tendency on this forum to get personal very quickly. I suppose it is better than an Italian forum though.

I am very sorry for your loss. No one is ever ready for the loss of a child.

I hope you get your boat built. Your idea was a good one. Building two or three identical boats is a good way to keep costs down.
I have been toying with the idea of getting a Diesel Duck built at Seahorse marine and sail it from China to Sydney myself.

Best wishes
Marc

[apex1]

I still have my yards Marco. (or hold shares in some) That was only one I closed. But the only one building in metal.

MTU is of course the best money can buy. But I am talking about displacement monsters of 80 liter and only 700hp! A completely different world.

Yes there was very soon a "helpful contributor" here, trying to tell the experts when the water freezes. Some of his "helpful" drivel is´nt deleted and still disturbs the eye. No idea about the really heavy Diesels but he did know everything better.

But in general I was very pleased with the constructive contribution of the experienced and knowledgeable members, and I mentioned them above.

Kaya does the boats at a lower price than the Chinese. btw

Regards
Richard

[Marco1]

So do you actually live in Turkey?
What do you think of the Diesel Ducks?

[apex1]

So do you actually live in Turkey?
What do you think of the Diesel Ducks?

No, I stay there sometimes for longer periods. But reducing my engagements.

Lets talk Diesel Ducks at another place please!

Regards
Richard

[Marco1]

OK

I remember rebuilding a 7 cyl Ingersoll rand that was over 3 meters high and cylinders I could stand inside jut above my knees with the piston half way up. Individual heads and pumps, a pirometer for each cylinder with a selector, exhaust pipe about 10". Real fun. I remember we had to get the rings made to mesure by turning cast steel because we couldn't find parts. It was an antique of sort. That one was driving a generator at 750 rpm if I remember correctly. Long time ago. That is probably still chugging along after 40 years non stop.
The Sulzer and Alco were small fry in comparison.

[apex1]

On the CPP thread I will come back to the merits of a heavy displ. Diesel installation soon!

And this:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/george-buehler-designs-28740.html

is the place to discuss Ducks!

Regards
Richard

[Vulkyn]

I have never seen, been in or read anything about trawlers but i have to say that does look like an impressive boat along with the amount of details, information and constructive comments in this thread (minus a couple of people who are a wast of time.) as well as the amount of research done.

I am no expert at all but even i was looking for tanks to test models in !! it makes sense and i wish we have that in Egypt ... (heck im thinking of building one myself!!)

I think i will have to read this whole thread many times over to start to get a grasp on the amount of knowledge and experience in this post.
I have a loooooooong way to go !!!

I would defiantly like to take a trip in a boat like that one, spend time in the engine room get my hands dirty ... i guess that would be my dream some day, i've been a land lubber for too long i guess its time i get back to my roots so to speak...

Richard sorry for your loss and i do hope that this project is completed as you originally wanted or better.
And yes i do believe you are one of the members in this forums that i would follow his advice, you do not beat about the bush and your straight forward and bald.
Respect to your contribution and that you post such details and information in a public forum ...

[hoytedow]

I have never seen, been in or read anything about trawlers but i have to say that does look like an impressive boat along with the amount of details, information and constructive comments in this thread (minus a couple of people who are a wast of time.) as well as the amount of research done.

I am no expert at all but even i was looking for tanks to test models in !! it makes sense and i wish we have that in Egypt ... (heck im thinking of building one myself!!)

I think i will have to read this whole thread many times over to start to get a grasp on the amount of knowledge and experience in this post.
I have a loooooooong way to go !!!

I would defiantly like to take a trip in a boat like that one, spend time in the engine room get my hands dirty ... i guess that would be my dream some day, i've been a land lubber for too long i guess its time i get back to my roots so to speak...

Richard sorry for your loss and i do hope that this project is completed as you originally wanted or better.
And yes i do believe you are one of the[handful of] members in this forums that i would follow his advice, you do not beat about the bush and your straight forward and bald.
Respect to your contribution and that you post such details and information in a public forum ...Ditto.

[apex1]

Almost one year now....


my rainbows end, my all and everything, gone in a second.

Bring them back!

I give you five of these boats for every kiss I can give them.

[hoytedow]

I know your pain.
I wake to the loss, feel the loss all day long and dream of it at night.
There is but one escape that the years will deliver when God wishes it.

[brian eiland]

No Brian,
...the air is compressed to 20 bar usually. That is not a high load on a piston.
But there are several disadvantages of the air start too. The bottles have a high volume, much more than the equivalent of starter batteries would have. (though they weigh less).
And the air vessels have to be inspected and classed every other year. (cost)
When the air suction brings too much salt spray or humidity into the vessel, they corrode fast from the inside.
Regards
Richard
I believe we are talking about two different air start methods. Rather than this injection of air into a piston of the engine, I was thinking of the small air motors like one finds in repair shops. aren't these the type of air starters on the semi-truck rigs?

And aren't these the type that demand a big burst of high pressure air to develop their starting torque, verses the electric motor starter that by its nature develops torque at low RPM?

[apex1]

I believe we are talking about two different air start methods. Rather than this injection of air into a piston of the engine, I was thinking of the small air motors like one finds in repair shops. aren't these the type of air starters on the semi-truck rigs?

That is most likely the case, that we are talking different animals.

But the air starter on these beefy Diesels we talk here is of the former type, hence my comment.
The air motor is not used in marine application, so it is mute to handle that case.

Regards
Richard

[fg1inc]

Richard,
I'm new to the forum and did not know about your loss. I'm so sorry and can only imagine the emotion you must go through every day. Thank you for the picture of your beautiful daughters, it's difficult to look at that picture and not feel a bit of the pain.
I must believe that the time you had with them, though short, will become more precious with time.
And thank you for your efforts on this forum. The conveyance of your knowlege and skills keeps us afloat and saves lives.
Dan

[apex1]

Richard,
I'm new to the forum and did not know about your loss. I'm so sorry and can only imagine the emotion you must go through every day. Thank you for the picture of your beautiful daughters, it's difficult to look at that picture and not feel a bit of the pain.
I must believe that the time you had with them, though short, will become more precious with time.
And thank you for your efforts on this forum. The conveyance of your knowlege and skills keeps us afloat and saves lives.
Dan

Thanks Dan!

[Vulkyn]

Richard,
I'm new to the forum and did not know about your loss. I'm so sorry and can only imagine the emotion you must go through every day. Thank you for the picture of your beautiful daughters, it's difficult to look at that picture and not feel a bit of the pain.
I must believe that the time you had with them, though short, will become more precious with time.
And thank you for your efforts on this forum. The conveyance of your knowlege and skills keeps us afloat and saves lives.
Dan

Ditto ..

[hoytedow]

Richard,
.... I'm so sorry and can only imagine the emotion you must go through every day. Thank you for the picture of your beautiful daughters, it's difficult to look at that picture and not feel a bit of the pain.
I must believe that the time you had with them, though short, will become more precious with time.
And thank you for your efforts on this forum. The conveyance of your knowlege and skills keeps us afloat and saves lives.
DanDouble ditto.

[Robbo]

triple ditto, can I ask what happened, I know you may not want to say but sometimes it helps to talk. As a father of 6, I have lost one also.

I only ask as last september (when you lost your beautiful girls) you were posting as usual up til 1030pm 30 Sept, so it must have been very sudden?

[apex1]

triple ditto, can I ask what happened, I know you may not want to say but sometimes it helps to talk. As a father of 6, I have lost one also.

I only ask as last september (when you lost your beautiful girls) you were posting as usual up til 1030pm 30 Sept, so it must have been very sudden?

What should that become? Did you make some investigations how long my pain would last?

Listen to this:

http://www.lastfm.de/music/Gregorio+Allegri/_/Miserere+mei+Deus

it might tell you more...........

And it is not my pain exclusively.....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/46821d1282868839t-offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-h-021.jpg

sure his loss has hurt as much...............

Wheather a believer, or a Atheist as I am, understand the Psalm 51 and the Miserere, you might find the way to understand yourself.

Richard

[Robbo]

What should that become? Did you make some investigations how long my pain would last?

Richard

No, when it started. I went back to see what might have happened in Sept that caused you to abandon the project but I noticed that you were posting updates all thru sept as normal so I thought it must have been something very sudden.

Myself I dont really go for that religious stuff, preferring to stand on my own feet.

Best of luck with your endeavors anyway.

[hoytedow]

What should that become? Did you make some investigations how long my pain would last?

Listen to this:

http://www.lastfm.de/music/Gregorio+Allegri/_/Miserere+mei+Deus

it might tell you more...........

And it is not my pain exclusively.....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/46821d1282868839t-offer-true-go-anywhere-trawler-build-side-side-h-021.jpg

sure his loss has hurt as much...............

Wheather a believer, or a Atheist as I am, understand the Psalm 51 and the Miserere, you might find the way to understand yourself.

RichardMany of us have suffered these losses. Thank you for the link to the Miserere. I really appreciate it.

[apex1]

This may become true again.

Not as a side by side offer anymore, though. You missed that.

Just wanted to inform you it gets built.

[hoytedow]

I know you will do a good job with it.

[apex1]

I know you will do a good job with it.

So many know I will. AD Hoc, Daniel, Mark, Will Allison, Slavi, Albert, Matt, the one who is not nameD, but was inviting me to Tasmania in his home after the loss of my family....yes many. Listen to Chris Rea "gone fishing" you will know...