View Full Version : Hydraulic pump on PTO engine


B33RND
07-29-2009, 04:31 AM
Hello,
I would like to ask if somebody has experience in building a hydraulic pump on the PTO of a propulsion engine (John Deere). I am planning to feed the steering gear by that pump as well as the bow thruster. Therefore I would like to know how much hp/kw such a pump (the biggest one with AES-B flange) draws from the engine.

Guest62110524
07-29-2009, 04:51 AM
Hello,
I would like to ask if somebody has experience in building a hydraulic pump on the PTO of a propulsion engine (John Deere). I am planning to feed the steering gear by that pump as well as the bow thruster. Therefore I would like to know how much hp/kw such a pump (the biggest one with AES-B flange) draws from the engine.

um strange, I ran through the JD option but settled vetus deutz
I would advise
go hand hydraulic, ie not eng driven fo steering
and the go to vetus website for your thruster requirements

gonzo
07-29-2009, 05:05 AM
It will draw as much as the load you attach to it

B33RND
07-29-2009, 05:07 AM
What was the reason you choose for Vetus Deutz? With a hand driven pump you mean a orbitrol whereon the steering wheel is directly attached to? That is what I will do anyway, but specially for steering the boat while on automatic pilot I want to avoid a electrical hydr. pump.

Guest62110524
07-29-2009, 05:12 AM
i chose Vetus deutz, for the strong reliable 4 cylinder
yes go look for hydrive, , wagner, or vetus hand hyd
leave belt driven pump alone, In Netherlands you have ALL to access
Vetus has a big pdf catalogue

B33RND
07-29-2009, 05:18 AM
It will draw as much as the load you attach to it

You mean to say that if you don't use hydraulic driven things you don't draw hp/kw as well?
Anyway I am planning to attach a hydraulic bow thruster of 20-25 hp to it which I want to have it able running full power simultaneously with operating a steering gear of 200kgm/300cc. The engine is a John Deere 6068TFM75 (200kW).

Guest62110524
07-29-2009, 05:21 AM
what does that eng cost there

Frosty
07-29-2009, 05:29 AM
That is what I will do anyway, but specially for steering the boat while on automatic pilot I want to avoid a electrical hydr. pump.

Why ,--you will still need electronically controlled valves for what is an occasional correction of steering, a very small load indeed.

You will have a pump running big enough for the bow thruster yet all it is doing is auto pilot work.

The electric hydraulic pumps are easy and will connect up nicely to your fluxgate control.

Lots of waisted power there. Sledge hammer for a walnut.

How big is the boat and auto pilot

gonzo
07-29-2009, 05:31 AM
If you are asking what the idle resistance is, you need to look at the specifications of the pump you are installing. If not it is like asking how much fuel does a boat use.

B33RND
07-29-2009, 05:35 AM
what does that eng cost there

John Deere 6068TFM75 with PRM 1000D3 and accumulatorset
€ 21.600,00 excl. 19% VAT (keel cooling)

B33RND
07-29-2009, 05:46 AM
Why ,--you will still need electronically controlled valves for what is an occasional correction of steering, a very small load indeed.

You will have a pump running big enough for the bow thruster yet all it is doing is auto pilot work.

The electric hydraulic pumps are easy and will connect up nicely to your fluxgate control.

Lots of waisted power there. Sledge hammer for a walnut.

How big is the boat and auto pilot

I indeed need to have electrical power available. But the boat will have a DC power concept. Therefore I don't want to have the autopilot consuming my charged batteries. Second, I wanna have anyway hydraulics on board for the bow thruster and anchor winch and mast.
The boat is 17 mtr long, I don't know yet which Autopilot I will choose.

Frosty
07-29-2009, 05:54 AM
The hydraulic pump does not run all the time unless you use a constant running pump for bigger boats.

These 12V pumps will use spurts of approx 6 amps and depending on the gain setting they will pump approx 1/2 second in three. A miniscule draw.

B33RND
07-29-2009, 08:46 AM
I also consider a hydraulic system as more reliable and a more flexible solution: It is always possible to expand the system as soon as you have a basic system. Perhaps I decide to install two pumps: one on the engine PTO for steering and one on the gearbox which is 'clutchable' for the bowthruster etc.

Another question: Does anybody has experience in the noise produced by such hydraulic pumps/sytems and is a oil cooler always required?

marshmat
07-29-2009, 09:29 AM
Hydraulic oil coolers are often necessary, but not always. Hydraulic pumps and motors all have preferred oil viscosity ranges; as oil heats up, it loses viscosity. Your pump/motor supplier of choice should be able to provide you with the appropriate charts and formulae for the parts you choose.

Most engine-driven hydraulic pumps, IMHO, should be of the variable-displacement variety, under some form of load sensing control. There are about half a dozen common ways of doing load-sensing; again, your supplier should be able to point you to the version that is appropriate for the pump you choose. If the pump is only going to be used for a bow thruster, a clutched fixed-displacement pump might provide adequate service for your needs. In all cases, there are fairly simple equations for relating the torque, power, pressure, displacement, RPM and flow rate of whichever hydraulic pump or motor you choose.

The problem with engine-driven power steering is that if your engine dies for any reason- most likely wet or dirty fuel- you loose steering as well. With electric pumps, they won't consume battery life while the engine's running (since the alternator is providing all the DC at that point), but they also won't shut your steering down if the engine stops.

I've been hearing some good things about WH autopilots ( http://www.whautopilots.com/ ) for larger boats with hydraulic steering, but I have yet to get my hands on one to see if the hype is for real.

Guest62110524
07-29-2009, 08:44 PM
John Deere 6068TFM75 with PRM 1000D3 and accumulatorset
€ 21.600,00 excl. 19% VAT (keel cooling)

http://www.frenchmarine.com/ProductsC.aspx?CID=82
big saving, plus the mtgs sit higher up the block, so you can get the eng lower
BUT JD is a very good eng
I did not buy cos JD France wanted too much, and would not give a builders discount, those prices above in French marine are retail;

apex1
07-29-2009, 09:00 PM
http://www.frenchmarine.com/ProductsC.aspx?CID=82
big saving, plus the mtgs sit higher up the block, so you can get the eng lower
BUT JD is a very good eng
I did not buy cos JD France wanted too much, and would not give a builders discount, those prices above in French marine are retail;

Nice to see you deal with them too now. I buy that engine cheaper.

B33RND
07-30-2009, 07:46 AM
The problem with engine-driven power steering is that if your engine dies for any reason- most likely wet or dirty fuel- you loose steering as well. With electric pumps, they won't consume battery life while the engine's running (since the alternator is providing all the DC at that point), but they also won't shut your steering down if the engine stops.

I've been hearing some good things about WH autopilots ( http://www.whautopilots.com/ ) for larger boats with hydraulic steering, but I have yet to get my hands on one to see if the hype is for real.

The system I am focusing on has a hand pump attached to the wheel as well, which make hand steering possible 'in case of'. Thereby I am building a power boat, so as soon as my propulsion is gone a rudder is useless.

Concerning the WH Autopilot (thanks for the info): There design is not very stylish on a modern bridgde. Furthermore, autopilots in which some important settings can be made, such are boat speed, boat size, yawing, rudder gain and counter rudder, are all good enough as long as those settings are proper.

marshmat
07-30-2009, 12:44 PM
All half-decent autopilots ought to give you the control functions you need. If I were buying one (which I'm not, as neither my current boat nor my next boat have any need for one) I would be more concerned with durability and ease of service. Manufacturers often seem to recommend something a bit too small for the boat, so they can beat the next guy's price. Better to oversize it, and make sure you have enough drawings and spare parts to be able to fix it mid-ocean or in a strange port. Styling doesn't matter much when saltwater has entered the fancy plastic case and you can't get the darn thing open.

B33RND
07-30-2009, 01:04 PM
I am wondering if all the autopilots which are used to give steering orders directly to the hydraulic pump (such as Raymarine), if those autopilots are also able to handle solenoid valve's of a hydraulic power unit.
Berend

Guest62110524
07-30-2009, 03:58 PM
I am wondering if all the autopilots which are used to give steering orders directly to the hydraulic pump (such as Raymarine), if those autopilots are also able to handle solenoid valve's of a hydraulic power unit.
Berend

yes, and the best are B AND G thats commonly accepted although they are more expensive

apex1
07-30-2009, 06:00 PM
Concerning the WH Autopilot (thanks for the info): There design is not very stylish on a modern bridgde. Furthermore, autopilots in which some important settings can be made, such are boat speed, boat size, yawing, rudder gain and counter rudder, are all good enough as long as those settings are proper.

Though not a fan of US products (except for some Diesels) I have to concur with Matt.
Will Hamms AP´s are a very, very nice stuff, and away from commercial systems I have´nt seen any better.

B33RND
08-03-2009, 02:55 PM
Another question: What should you choose for the bow thruster: electric or hydraulic. I have heard that electric thrusters keep there power better compared to hydraulic, because of the load from the hydraulic pump to the engine. The rpm is going down by that load which affects the thrust of the bow thruster.
Berend

marshmat
08-03-2009, 03:38 PM
If you go by what the thruster manufacturers tend to say, a particular electric thruster will always provide roughly the same thrust (provided it's wired properly) but can only run for a few seconds at a time before you have to let it cool down. Continuous running tends to overheat them; they're meant to give a quick burst to nudge the bow in the right direction.

The hydraulic versions seem to be preferred where longer duty cycles are required, ie. if you use the thruster to hold the boat against the pier for a few minutes while passing lines ashore. If you fit a properly matched load-sensing hydraulic pump, it will automatically adjust its displacement to provide an appropriate pressure and flow rate to whatever accessories are being used, regardless of the current engine rpm.

B33RND
08-22-2009, 04:08 AM
um strange, I ran through the JD option but settled vetus deutz. I would advise go hand hydraulic, ie not eng driven fo steering and the go to vetus website for your thruster requirements

Hello again,

I was interested whether you are satisfied with your Deutz. Which type you choose for? Actually somebody else recommended those Deutz engines to me as well.

Many people advise against a hydraulic bowthruster which is fed by a PTO driven pump on the main engine. The reason would be the actual remaining thrust because of the lack of power on idle diesels.

That problem should be solved (according them) with this Deutz engine as they have a special electronic governor which should keep the rpm's on level when for example the hydraulic bowthruster is started.

Are there more people who have experience in this Deutz engine?? and this governor in particular?

Thanks

B33RND
08-22-2009, 03:15 PM
Another question: What should you choose for the bow thruster: electric or hydraulic. I have heard that electric thrusters keep there power better compared to hydraulic, because of the load from the hydraulic pump to the engine. The rpm is going down by that load which affects the thrust of the bow thruster.
Berend

Are there more people aware of this phenomena: Many people here in the Netherlands say that a hydraulic thruster doesn't actually give the thrust they were designed/delivered for. This is the case when the engine where the supply pump is attached to is on stationary/idle RPM.

Thanks in advance for your comments,

Berend

FAST FRED
08-30-2009, 04:57 PM
We use an auto pilot that was designed to operate about 25a of hyd punp to move the cylinder..

It functions quite happily prompting solenoid valves that are installed just past the wheel control. There fused at 2A so the power consumption is low .

We can over ride the AP simply by moving the wheel should that be necessary.

The big hassle with Hyd bow thrusters is most docking is done at idle , and no matter how big the pump , at idle it wont do much.

The solution is to install the BIG hyd pump on the gen set , where it can operate at much higher speeds .
I have seen a charter boat in NY harbor that needs to battle 5K docking currents , and he has a cut-out for the electric generator part , and runs 2100 for hyd while docking , instead of the 1800 the generator usually operates at.

With massive power from a gen set a hyd windlass , boat davits and all the usual toys is easy.

Read the instructions with many electric thrusters , 45 seconds every 5 min ,,,THAT SUCKS!!

Hyd thrusters will run "forever".

The gen set could also do double duty as the get home steering should the main engine small hyd pump pack up.

Every boat needs an emergency tiller , no matter how many backups.

FF

TollyWally
08-31-2009, 01:09 AM
In my slightly biased opinion electric bowthrusters are toys and real bowthrusters are hydraulic.

WotEver
09-01-2009, 04:56 AM
In my slightly biased opinion electric bowthrusters are toys and real bowthrusters are hydraulic.

I don't know if it's something peculiar to narrowboat usage, but Vetus electric bowthrusters in particular have a very poor reputation in the UK for wearing/breaking/sticking brushes and hugely expensive replacement cost (of brushes).

Regards,
Tony :)

B33RND
09-01-2009, 06:36 AM
I agree that a hydraulic thruster is the most solid solution. Bud I will have no generator to attach the hydraulic pump to, and I even don't want to start the generator solely for using the bow thruster.

Therefore I am searching for the ultimate solution for using a hydraulic thruster which is properly fed by the PTO of an idle running (propulsion) engine. With that pump the Autopilot can be fed as well.

Perhaps using a CPP would be the solution?? Than one can leave the engine running on a higher RPM just during maneuvering so that the hydraulic pump supply enough of oil to the bow thruster.

Berend

Dynaset
11-30-2009, 06:37 AM
You should select the right size for the hydraulic pump, depending on what it wants to use the hydraulics. One right size for the hydraulic pump makes it possible to produce energy for hydraulic propulsion, bow thruster, stabilizers, hydraulic generator and etc.

Ideas are only a boundary.

powerabout
01-19-2010, 01:53 PM
I dont know how big your boat is but personaly I would take (serious) elec over hydraulic
You will get what you asked for from the gen versus power differences with a main engine hyd mounted pump.
(The engine maker should be able to give you power output at idle)
BUT I would assume the electric is going to cost more?
I mean commercial (stuff not vetus)
Think about the tunnel, prop and gearbox as one item and the power driving it another so could be either elec or hyd.
If hyd you will need to ( should ) run 2 pumps as the pump requirement for a bow thruster will be way over the top for all your other accessories.

BTDT with pleasure boats and hydraulics and dont like it..noise, heat, cooling problems due to engine idleing, oil tanks having to be mounted at a high point , huge mess on leaks, fire risk, lost space in engine room, hoses/pipes through the accomodation etc etc.
Bow thruster hose bursts and you have pumped the whole tank volume into the bilge before the oil tank level alarm has even gone off.
Will you carry enough spare oil to refill the system???

The chances of a small pleasure boat having an oily water separator...now what are you going to do (assuming your auto bilge pump was turned off?)

To me hydraulic is for a small fishing trawler as bigger they need electric when it comes to thrusters and the other hydraulics are usually run from power packs

If you send some vessel drawings to a bow thruster company they will do the current/wind calculation for you to select the horsepower/tunnel size/depth etc you need.
Then armed with your idle engine power see where you are.

marshmat
01-19-2010, 02:35 PM
Why would you need two pumps? A single, variable-displacement pump with load sensing control can handle enormous swings in hydraulic power demand; size it for the full load (with thruster) and it'll just back itself off when not needed.

I do tend to agree that a properly engineered electric system would be preferable.... unfortunately, "properly engineered" in this case involves the big consumers (thruster, windlass, etc.) operating at 24 or 48 V (running 600 amps at 12 V the whole length of the boat through a 00-gauge cable is not good engineering, especially when the 12 V thruster motor has to be rated on a 10-second duty cycle to prevent it from getting cooked). So the battery bank becomes more elaborate, equalizers or DC/DC converters come into the picture....

powerabout
01-19-2010, 02:51 PM
yes true
once we see how big the pump will need to be for the bow thruster and you think of the time spent driving (with just the steering for a load) versus docking, I would not want to be turning a pump that big continuously when jack shafted off the front of the main engine.


Yes large low voltage DC is ugly, I was thinking of AC thats why I said expensive ( in the short term)

17m powerboat without gen set?

powerabout
01-20-2010, 05:11 AM
How about one of these on the front of the engine
http://www.raventechpower.com/
I like the idea of having this on your main engine so you can have a gen set as big as the main engine should you want?
This technology must be on the door step as it is needed in the windmill business.

I have an interest in this thread as I want to get an old 20m wooden fishing boat from around se Asia and convert to pleasure use.
They are all single engine so I would need a bow thruster for marinas.
Being both a pleasure and commercial user of boats, I lean toward the electric version, but variable speed AC is not as simple as hydraulic

gonzo
01-21-2010, 09:08 AM
Hydraulic pumps and motors can be fairly cheap. Specially if you don't need a high efficiency system. For a bow thruster, the standard motors and pumps would be OK. Hydraulics, because they are internally lubricated fare well in the marine environment.

bertho
02-14-2010, 07:21 AM
if can bring some experience....
talking about small boat..8/30 meters.
was working for years for fisherman,, everthing can be broken, they will ruine this thing, and hydraulic was the only items resisting to them !!!:p
so.., we install quantity of hydraulic systems , if properly do, it's the most relieable thing i know on a boat... elctricity will never be reliable on water/humid environment.. problems come mostly from the coupling/clutch, from temperature control, from rusting parts on the deck.
hydraulic power steering is simple, small gear pump, (10 CC ) with a good quality flow regulator, diectly on the engine, most of the time a PTO available somewhere in that all " industrial engine" but sometime the place is taken for sea water pump and you need to add a belt to drive this tiny pump, (do the support with external well sized bearing to avoid any stress on the pump)
sometime, you need to install two different flow regulator, to have quick control at low speed engine with the tiller ( 6 second port to sta.) , and another one for the autopilot ( 18/25 second port to sta.) , who like move slow reaction when sailing.
if you need more power, sometime, as bow thruster or winchs, or ?? , the most reliable is the pump on the gearbox PTO, standrad option with ZF/Masson/ twin disk..., they have 100% reliable hydraulic clutch for a very reasonnable price when you order with the gearbox, and you just engage this one when you need the "big power"
you can also have a mecanic cluth in the from engine, but .. often problems with the clutch...
for simple boats, other system like variable volume pump always running are much more expensive system if you need just a small power steering 90% of the time.. .
always have a large oil volume, good cooling/filter system for this oil , and do regular analyse to be sure is no pollution in like condensation water on the tank... .
unproper size diameter for hose is a common issue, running oil enjoy, cold, large and short way to go ! ;)
cheer's
(ps apologise for my "frenchglish" !!)

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