help with an old Tri

[kim s]

I have just aquired an old plywood v-hulled tri, that has had a few very poor owners.
I have NO idea what or who she is, and have spent hours trawling the net with no joy. not even close.
She is 8.5metres long and 5 metres wide. I think a home build, but with some nice touches like roled aerofoil shaped fins on the Ama's.The Amas are only 800mm shorter the the main hull with a fairly flat v shape so bouyancy will go up very quickly as they are submerged.I am guessing the total weight of the boat at about 2 tonnes but its only a guess. The crane that lifted her out did not have a lifting weight gauge. just warning bells if exceeded 10 tonnes.

She s called "Monksfoot" and this carved into the tiller. I think she has been predominantly on the east coast of UK.
I think built in the early 70's. but unfortunatly has had a lot of modification and some plonker used mild steelscrews which punctured the fiberglass sheathing and has rotted the wood. so I have 12 sheets of ply to replace!!!!

I have some major issues with her and this is where I need peoples help.
The cross beams where made up of 4 planks of I thinks hardwood glued and bolted together, that have rotted. Now even with my limited knowledge,I now that this is not the best way of doing things. so my plea for help is can some-one help me with the design for replacement box section beams. I do not expect this for free and so If there is any-one in the uk that can help I will be very gratefull to get in contact direct
Acually, thats not fair. I guess any body in the world could help.Just thinking its easier sometimes to have a telephone call.

Once I read up howto,I will post some pictures to see if any one has any idea to its ( iwas going to say pedigree) but its family rootes.

Kim s

[marshmat]

Hi Kim, welcome aboard :)

The software that runs this forum can handle photo uploads; there's a button under the reply box to this effect (click "Go Advanced" if you can't find it). A few shots would go a long way in trying to figure out what you have- ideally a couple that show the whole boat, and a few of the damaged areas that you're trying to understand.

From what I understand, there were A LOT of plywood trimarans built in the '60s and '70s. Some were reportedly quite good; a great many others are largely responsible for the bad name that multihulls in general have only been able to shake off in the last decade or so.

Depending on how they were built, some of these boats are still in pristine shape today, especially those built with the then-radical wood/epoxy composite construction. Others were hastily tacked together from crudely cut lumber and whatever fasteners the hardware store had on sale that week, and sheathed with polyester/fibreglass; few of these ones survived long.

I've been told that there were a lot of cheap, often poorly thought out plans going around in those days, many of which have long been forgotten. But if there's any place on the Web where you'll find folks who might recognize this boat, and might be able to help you figure out what to do about it, this is the place....

[kim s]

Thanks Marshmat Hopefully this will work.
Yes I understand about the old ones giving Multihull a bad name. And I have a horrible feeling this might be one of those. But for what I paid for it, The mast and boom and the masses of stainless steel some one bolted onto it, I can get my money back in scrap metal!!!. BUT saying that, she i quite sleek and from the rough estimates I have done using the formulas in Chris Whites book ( i understand is a must for newbies)then she will be no ocean greyhound, but just reasonably fast for size etc. ideal for a family local upright cruising.

Right pictures-----hmmm lets see

Heres hoping.

Kim

[rayaldridge]

Kim, there's a Yahoo group devoted to old multihulls:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/classicmultihullsailboats/

There are some folks there who can help,including a guy whose business it is to restore classic multihulls.

You've taken on a big job.

[Fanie]

Hi Kim, yes welcome to the forum. We always welcome other masochists here :D

Ahem... sorry :rolleyes:

Could you perhaps post some pics where it is out of the water ? It is rather dificult to see the hulls properly with it still soaking in water.

I agree with the beams you want to replace. If the hull and ama's is still ok you could maybe prep it up to a nice standard again.

[dialdan]

Hi
Try googling Hartley Lively
There were two versions a 28ft and a 35 ft one was called a Lively and the other a Sparkle I dont know in what order . I know one of them has gone around OZ

Ps just had a look and you can still buy plans from Duckworks

Al

[Fanie]

Well done Al, I think you got it.

It seems the old tri's were having ama's only to keep the hull upright. I don't know how easy one can enjoy the outdoors on those slanted spaces between the hull and ama's....

Note both ama's sitting in the water.

[dialdan]

Thanks Fanie
I think Mr Hartley changed his mind I am sure they would have started off as monos.
A little late for you isn,t it?
Al

[Fanie]

A little early for you isn,t it?
Actually a bit late. At least the wife is sleeping and I have some quiet time for a change :D

I have recently taken pictures at a local marina also of an old tri. I was hoping they were going to scrap it so I can get the ama's but unfortunately the boat was being restored. This one's ama's were 8.5m long and would have been ideal to make an experimental cat with.

As for the tri Kim have, I wonder what is to be gained if the beams were made streight instead of drooped like original beside level outside space.

[kim s]

Thanks guys for the links, I will try them(tri them----sorry:o new here so guess that one has been used)

Yes I am worried about the job but so far its only the skin thats rotten, no frames except the transom where she broke her bow line and caught up on the rudder on the wreck shes moored next too.As I said earlier 14sheets of ply(sods law cabin tops 6ft 4 x5ft 6in so 2 sheets required---bug3er. cockpit seats 9ftlong x 2ft 6inch ----2sheets required ---bug3er.. fore deck 7 ft long x 5ft 9--2 sheets required---bug3er. coach roof 6ft 4 x6ft --guess what --2 sheets required-----all together now -----bug3er. )
all horizontal surfaces require new ply--amas included. BUT its amazing howmuch rott can be removed witha jig saw and how quickly new ply can be cut--epoxied and replaced.

As far a shots out of the water, I cant show a complete one as the cross beams started to disintergrate as she was lifted out. The yard insistead the mast was removed first and the shrouds where actually supporting the outrigers --gulp.
I had to get her apart and off the wharf side asap(and sweep up the the debris) as they had a large old smack to launch the next day. so taking photos was not a top priority then.
The Amas are in the back garden but the main hull in the yard. will see what I can do over the next few days.

Kim

[kim s]

As for the tri Kim have, I wonder what is to be gained if the beams were made streight instead of drooped like original beside level outside space.[/QUOTE]

Fanie. I have a suspicion these where straighter as if you read my last post ( you got in before i could reply) the beams had failed so I thought about lifting them up so ( think the terms is "walked") also sraighter beams must surely be easier to fabricate.

Kim

[kim s]

Hi
Try googling Hartley Lively
There were two versions a 28ft and a 35 ft one was called a Lively and the other a Sparkle I dont know in what order . I know one of them has gone around OZ

Ps just had a look and you can still buy plans from Duckworks

Al

What can I say

I am 99.99% percent certain thats it

The interior is exactly the same.
I have the same rigging points and everything.

FANTASTIC

Thanks guys.

Just got to sort out the cross beams problem ,then 14 sheets of ply. a mortgage full of epoxy, new sails and off we jolly well go.

Will try and keep up-dating process with picture gallary somewhere if any one is at all interested. no------ it only me then he he

Kim s

[Fanie]

Looking at the link Al posted the beams on the originals pictures were about the same slant. If you do get the beams streight I'm almost sure you would gain on drag. Since I don't know that tri it is just an opinion. Some basic mods may well turn out to be quite pleasant if the hulls are shaped ok.

As Ray said, you've taken on a big job.

[Fanie]

Just got to sort out the cross beams problem ,then 14 sheets of ply. a mortgage full of epoxy, new sails and off we jolly well go.
If I may make a suggestion -

Instead of just slapping materials together, do a bit of research first. You may well want to use a bit more modern approach to make the beams stronger and more elegant as well as saving some weight. You can always add sandbags if it comes out too light :D

[bill broome]

i would be inclined to rent a chainsaw, and turn this into something useful: firewood.

seriously, building a new boat is likely to be easier than making something half-way useful out of this dinosaur.

[kim s]

Fanie,

I was being a bit daft, just happy to know the wreck I had bought was not a complete mongral.

I have done too much monohull sailing to know I cant slap it together. Like all these things, maybe lifting the outer hulls up, remove keels and install dagger boards, maybe go for a different design of rudder (this one is a barn door) keep the weight down ets and I feel improvements can be made. But all this must be done carefully.This poor old girl had more metal work attached than your average fin keel yacht, so I know I can get her back up to scratch. I do have a small one off tri I built in glass from a british designer which kind of worked. not great design and not a great build but introduced me to multihull and I am hooked. time to take it serious and above all enjoy the journey.

Cheers

Kim

[kim s]

Cheers Bill

First time asking for help and already some one slagged my boat off.
One with a direct bit of history to your country as well.
May not be to your taste, or you would not want to take on a rebuilding task,but please -----give me a chance and dont pi55on a mans dreams no matter how stupid they might seem to you.:) :)

Kim

[dialdan]

Hi Kim

I really think you would be better off restoring back to original .If you straightened the beams it wont go to weather as well, also you would have to add stays to them or beef them up as they would not be as strong . Just my opinion.
Al

[apex1]

a mortgage full of epoxy, new sails and off we jolly well go.


Kim, I know Epoxy is extremely expensive in the UK, to skimp a bit on that go here:

http://www.r-g.de/

this has proven to be a cheap and high quality source for several UK builders, every time I posted the link.


Regards
Richard

[kim s]

Thanks Apex1.
that is ceetainly cheaper, even with the pound going down the drain!!!!
Just need to check delivery price to uk.

Kim

[peterAustralia]

You have a lot of work to get through


Have you made a list of what is good and what is bad? What will it cost to get up to a reasonable state. Perhaps compare that to buying with that money, what can you get? Can you salvage parts from that and add to someone that has a half completed project, example someone has built a trimaran, run out of money after they finished the hull. Buy this unfinished project and then add the rigging engine, fittings from what you have.

There has to be someone in the UK that has built a tri hull and given up?


Alternatively,
Maybe it can be thought of as a rebuild, if the frames are mostly sound, it could be thought of as building from scratch, but the framing is already done.

Are the amas sound? Would it be better to build new ones? I hate the deck house, so much windage, maybe it could go and add something that is made of canvas and goes down and is stowed away in the day and is setup at night-time.

For the crossbeams. My boat was small with 240L outrigger. I made wood box beams and had 3 people (300kg of us) stand at mid point with the ends supported on bricks. Maybe just copy the original design of the crossbeams and build anew. What do the connectives to the main hull look like, do they look strong?

I guess you can look at other trimarans and see what sized crossbeams they use. My main concern would not be the crossbeams but where they join the main hull, the connection needs to be sound.

I think what you are doing is possible... whether it is easy i am not sure. 28ft you say, I guess that is not huge.

I assume this was originally a keel yacht and the lead keel has been removed and replaced with dual outriggers? In the case you ought to have a little bit of spare weight to play with.

I guess my main point is, before you spend too much money, look at all the options. How much money will it cost to do up? how many hours? with what you have spent, is that better or worse than some alternatives?

regards
N Peter Evans

[catsketcher]

Gday guys

Got to this thread late but I have seen a few Sparkles in my time. To the typical multihullers eye they look a bit like a mono with training wheels. I know that one circumnavigated Oz in the 60s - it may have been the first multi to do so. I would need to dig my mag clippings out to see.

This is a typical Sparkle. The beams were always in this configuration. I seem to recall a waterstay but I could be wrong. If the beams are bad I would make nice new box beam ply ones - maybe with a waterstay.

Hartleys used to be an abomination in my eyes. After cruising a Twiggy I can understand some of their benefits. You get more room, high immersion rate and level sailing compared top a mono. Do not expect tri performance. If this boat will be used for mooching around protected waterways it will be fine. If you want to sail around the world then a suspect old ply (or any material) tri is not your vessel.

On another note - be very careful about using materials that are not normal. The most expensive part of this rebuild will be your labour. I believe in Chris White's maxim - If you can't throw it overboard build it out of good quality materials.

On the other hand - you will be amazed how far rot goes. If you can feel it in the deck then I would guess that the hulls have some too. I would urge caution in spending money until you have ripped the thing apart. I got a free trailer sailer once. A little digging and I found she was full of rot. She didn;t seem to until I started getting in there with tools - she went to the tip. If all the decks are gone I would say you have an 80% chance of the whole boat being too far gone. Tread carefully and don't commit until you know what the score is.

cheers

Phil

[kim s]

Cheers for the advice Guys,

Well as you suspected Phil, The rot has gone on from the decks, but having removed all the dodgy ply, there is only one main frame that has gone soft. that has been removed and replaced and now we are into the fun bit of atually putting good stuff back on her.
I know that she will be no ocean flyer, but for coastal stuff here on the east coast UK, she should be ok. For those who haven't been here, Its all tidal and fairly shallow with lots of mud banks. So I think she will suit these waters very well.
I do admit she is not the prettiest of craft, and Once the main hull is back sound, I may change the top half. But for the first time in a long while I have standing headroom, and just with the cabin hatch open!!!!.
I will probably rebuild as is then end of next year, change her----who knows.
Right I am off to trawl through the posts about weather or not to sheath the whole boat in epoxy, or just do the below the waterline ( upto the chine) Every thing you read or hear about, every-one has different ideas.
I will DEFFINATLY do below the waterline, more for impact resistance (i did say its shallow round here). but the rest Hmmmmmm we will see

Kim

[kim s]

i would be inclined to rent a chainsaw, and turn this into something useful: firewood.

seriously, building a new boat is likely to be easier than making something half-way useful out of this dinosaur.

Bill , I have sat and thought long and hard over this weekend and have decided to carry on rebuilding the "old dinosaur" cos in the UK we have already got one pile of ashes ,so no need to create another:D :D
Kim

[kim s]

Yahooooo,

Plans turned up todayand confirmed it deffinatly is a Lively/Sparkle 28.

It looks like the original builder did build her to spec. Its some idiot bolted everything on after wards with mild steel that has caused the problems.

New frames in stern main hull all replaced
New transoms frames and skin in
50% of the hull skin is now replaced.
Cabin all rot taken out and new frames in place.
Most of cockpit frames replaced and sorted and seats replaced

Just have to do new cabin sides and cut out decks and glue down, then ontothe outrigger arms (now I have the plans)

Its so easy this plywood construction love it
Day off tomorow as sailing ona shutlwoods design tri called
"Strontium Dog" ex "strontium 90"
Looking forward to that
kim