Yanmar are crap.

[Frosty]

Yeah you heard me,--sue me.

Yanmar you are crap. 4 years I have had these 6LPs and I can not get a reply to this question. How long should it take for oil pressure to come up from a cold start?

They also rattle like an old tin can of bolts when I turn them off and have done since they were new.

I want to sell the boat but the engines will get a bad survey like this and they are nearly new.

I once heard there was a Yanmar agent in the Marina, I ran and found him , I dragged him over and showed him everything, He said the engine mounts were wrong, he went away. I then got an e mail saying no they were correct,---nothing else ---nothing.

A simple question, but they wont talk about it because mine take 7-10 seconds,-- tooooooo long!!!!

Australia told me to get on with my life. Yanmar Europe wont answer thier e mails any more,-- the last which was "you will here from Yanmar Malaysia.

That was 17July.

Singapore is the best, they sent me a new turbo that sucked in the air filter rivets!! Yanmar Australia said they are too old for turbo warranty?? 170 hours?

Unless I live in Sing I will never ever buy another Yanmar. They are just Toyota engines anyway.

Come on Yanmar communicate with me. you had better because I will get louder, 4 years is enough.

ANYONE???????????? Come on sue me?????

[Ad Hoc]

I cannot guarantee a reply, but since they are down the road from me, i'll ask.

[marshmat]

Umm... you have a problem with oil pressure on start-up, and they sent you a new turbocharger?

[Fanie]

Selling the boat ? Are you turning into a landlubber or have you another boat in mind ?

Put the original popeye avatar back. That would get the yanmars sit up ;)

Why is it the moment a product begins to get a good name they go and bugger it up.

[forkliftking]

I have a 2004 Komatsu small front loader with a 4 cylinder junk Yanmar engine. We were told that the engine is not made any more and no parts are available. A wholesale dealer in florida sold us a new, different model Yanmar that we adaped to fit. $3850.00. Had to buy the fuel system and other accy. to match. Less then 5 year old engine and you can't get parts. I would not buy ANYTHING powered by Yanmar. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Jimbo1490]

Japs never caught up with Euro or American diesels, and that a fact

I bet owners of Isuzu and Kubota diesels would beg to differ with you. GM won the 'diesel war' in light trucks by using an Isuzu engine. The Cummins and IH engines used in the Dodge and Ford light trucks respectively (or GM's own diesel engines, for that matter) just don't stack up to the Duramax (Isuzu) engines. I think of Yanmar as a maker of cheap, throwaway air cooled one-lunger diesel used on 'arrow boards' and light towers. Most everything else they sell is re-badges from some other maker like Toyota.

Jimbo

[peter radclyffe]

what do you guys think of the 40hp new volvo

[hartley]

Bad news frosty,I am no yanmar expert ,detroit,perkins are my go ,i suggest you look up ''boat diesel.com, lots of info there on yanmar I used to be member some years ago ,you pay 25 bucks i think and you get the archives I recall lots of trouble with cylinder heads ,valve gear etc ,some talk of class action .it all gets down to the same old story,trying to extract too much hp from base engine design .....cheers hartlley.

[mark775]

They do now. Cat is the dumb one with ACERT. Contact Tony Athens, a moderator of boatdiesel, about Yanmars. He will get you straightened out. Those little Yanmar buggers are doing great service on charter boats in Alaska.

[Jimbo1490]

I have owned Izuzu trucks, the engines you refer to, rarely go over 2.5 l, in small , light trucks
And they do good life
But how you can compare with Cummins, 5.9--6.2 l I have no idea

So never even heard of the venerable NPR and NQR series medium (18, 000 lb) truck engines? Isuzu is the best selling medium truck in the world. There's a reason for this and it's the engine.

And no offense to the fans of Cummins, but they have made a couple of clunkers, too, like the 555's.

Jimbo

[Frosty]

Disappointed,!!! I opened up this morning hoping to find Yanmar contacting me. But not shocked.

No Marshmat they did not just send a 3000 dollar turbo because of the oil late alarms, the turbo was damaged by its own filter rivets that fell out. I did adequately explain,-- thought.

I have to what? ask Boat deiesel and send them money to ask about a Yanmar, why don't Yanmar know.

They take a Toyota engine then paint it silver ,--very badly,-- then charge you 54,000 australan dollars.

They told me that my problem is the filter and I should not use after market filters, I use Toyota 30915 30002, they said ah thats your problem , But I said thats what was in the engines when you delivered them.

Yanmar filters are 48 pounds a pair they paint Toyota filters and sell them as Yanmar. am I lying???

It is pathetic that one has to do this to get a company to contact.

The book tells you to change the mixing elbow every year, they are 1000 pounds.

When the engines are running they are good with good HP but after market assistance is non existence. Any one can be a Yanmar dealer and if you get a difficult question just ignore it.

I think Yanmar Autralia has mixed the wrong filter blocks with my engines with the outdrive models they have 2 different type cooler take offs.

Yanmar Europe sent me a picture of a filter block asking if mine was like this ,--i said no , They said oh we dont know this engine. Thats it? never E mailed again.

Australia told me not to worry as both engines can not have the same problem and to get on with my life.

Yanmar 6LP are crap just don't buy them

[Frosty]

I may not have explained the rattle correctly. The rattle is when the engines are stopped,--ie the button is pressed to stop. As the crank bounces between compressions finding a place to stop it rattles.

I changed a drive plate on one of them but both are identical.

Surely this cant be normal. It is very loud, and is unacceptable.

It is not the exhaust.

[Frosty]

Both engines Identical noise, have done since brand new at zero hours. Thats why Yanmar Australia dismiss it as a problem because you cant get the same prob on both engines in the same boat, well that what they say.

If it had have been one engine I would have gone for the damper. There is no additional take offs, engines are as delivered.

[globaldude]

I run a small 40hp 4cyl Yanmar in my fishing boat, it runs real sweet uses very little fuel But !
Sounds like you have identified the filters are too small - or at least the wrong ones. the rattle - no Idea .
I'd be real pissed if I was you too mate !, the fact that they won't answer says they know about it , but don't want to admit liability -- in my opinion.
Good on you for rarcking them up it's not good press ! and will no doubt put some off .


COME ON yANMAR JUST TALK TO THE MAN AND SHOW YOUR INTEGRITY !!

Did you like the little Y ?? :p

[Frosty]

No they stop immediately but rattle like the exhaust was touching the chassis on a car. Its not an engine malfunction just a rattle and loud.

Its like (ive thought hard about this) a 10mm spanner in an empty gallon can and someone shakes it when the engine stops. Not acceptable is it?

Been like that since new.

Temperatures are perfect, oil pressure at idle is 2.5MPA x 10 not even in the red.

Could be gearboxes/drive plate, but I changed a drive plate but no difference. At first I though and was convinced the drive plates were loose.

Could be wrong drive plates,!!! but Sing sent me a new one for that engine and box and to my utmost surprise they sent the identical part.

Yanmars are Crap take yer money and run. unless you live in Sing I suppose

[marshmat]

It sounds like you're just raring to get your hands on Takehito and Tadao Yamaoka here, Frosty. (Their president and chairman, respectively.) Perhaps a nicely phrased letter, politely expressing your extreme disappointment with the product itself and the service provided by the dealers, would accelerate things along somewhat.
These two have offices at:
1-32 Chayamachi, Kita-ku,
Osaka, Japan

[Fanie]

Something loose inside the exhaust by the sound of it.

[mark775]

It's the adaptor plate and a harmonic incompatability with the transmission. Yanmar doesn't want to tell you what plate to install. Your transmission company doesn't want to tell you which plate to install. It is a difficult scenario made more difficult by an unruly client. They want to be washed of you.
About all you can do is either try different plates (try Vulcan rubber of a recommended stiffness) or hire an independant torsional vibration analysis, or talk to Tony Athens (or someone like him), a moderator at Boatdiesel.com (like I said before) and get a recommendation.
I have tried the tack you are presently on and it soon runs out of water. You need a friend in your corner and to bear in mind that with all the talk about "this engine is better/worse than that" and such, SERVICE should be the first consideration when buying a diesel engine. Find a dealer with which you have something in common and develope said relationship or suffer.

[Frosty]

Yes homer I believe you are correct. That is why Yanmar is crap.

They knock together sooo many different variatiions of engines that they themselves don't know whats going on. So they just sell you something.

Ive replaced the rubber cush drive on the flywheel ---Sigh should I have to do this? it made no difference. They sell unknown engines just to get your money then run.

The rattle is harmonic vibrations shaking the transmission and there in the middle of the 2 is the "dark area"

Unruly client? 4 years trying unruly?

They probably think Oh he will get a few years out of it, and then he wont care or sell the boat, then we got away with it.

I hope you all wise up on Yanmar, they sell toys.

[mark775]

Frosty, really...the fact that your main point is simply that "Yanmar is crap" belies your professed desire to find an answer to your problem. Forget the past and try to forget how mad you are at Yanmar ( I went through this with Cat and feel uniquely qualified to empathize). Bleating about your injustice will not do anything. If you want even worse response utter the word "lawsuit".

[whoosh]

look,
this will take some time, but you could fit a clock dial to your flywheel and check the bell alignment,
When I rebuilt larger motors I would do this as routine
this would mean , taking off the boxes, yes well you know that

[Bigfoot1]

You dont say how long the engine rattles when you shut the engines down.
There is a valve that shuts fuel flow off when the ignition is turned off. If the engine turns more than say 10 or 15 revs before the compression brakes the momentum in the engines, then there could be fuel getting by the valve.

Re how long the engine must run from a cold start before the oil pressure comes up to guage.
I am not familiar with the guages, but most guages have a damper installed so that each small increment in oil pressure change does not vibrate the needle.
As an example, when you start a vehicle you can slowly watch the fuel guage reach the tanks fill position. Ie it is not instantaneous feedback.

The oil pump is positive displacement, when it turns the oil pressure starts at zero until the downstream resistance from the flow path offers resistance due the viscous shear of the oil. Ie if all of the oil is drained from all of the gallerys, which it should probably not happen, a few turns of the pump, the gallerys are filled, the resistance from the orfices and or clearances between the bearings create the pressure that the guage reads. Ie if you blew all the bearings, the guage would probably read zero or something small as the oil pump sees no resistance to build pressure.
A positive displacement pump will build pressure to whatever the input horsepower is driving it. At higher rpms, the pump will create more oil volume that the engine needs, and the extra volume will be bled off with a pressure relief valve in the oil pump.
I would not doubt that the pressure guage is just damped to give you a slow feedback.

But this should be a few minutes at worst, anything longer, who knows.
You are focused on the fact that the guage is giving you an accurate pressure picture. But I suspect that if you took a manual pressure gauge and screwed it into an oil pressure gallery port, that the pressure to whatever the pressure relief valve is set at the oil pump, would almost be instantaneous, while the guage at the helm is slowly coming up to specs.

Fuel guages are an easy example of this dampening as if it guage changed instantly with every wave the guage would be jumping around all over the place.

[mark775]

I forgot about the oil pressure aspect of your problem but the above describes things perfectly.

[Jimbo1490]

You are focused on the fact that the guage is giving you an accurate pressure picture.


I think he's rather focused on the sound of connecting rods knocking loudly on start-up as their shell bearings are not 'floating' on a film of oil under pressure as they should be, and that this knocking is going on WAY too long, like 10 seconds or so while the engine has already started. He already knows the reason for this: The 'upside down' oil filter installation coupled with a less-than-perfect anti-drainback (check) valve in the spin-on filter allows the filters to drain dry, causing an excessively long dry start every time. This is definitely not good as dry starting is responsible for most of the wear in a typical engine. Doubling or more the dry start time has GOT to be very hard on (especially) the con rod bearings.

I would be very unhappy with a $50K engine that pulled shenanigans like this, and a supposedly reputable company that refuses to provide a remedy!

Jimbo

[wardd]

prelube pump?

[Jimbo1490]

BTW, I've thought of a remedy, and it's relatively cheap and simple.

The upside down filters are the root cause. The anti-drainback valve in a typical spin-on oil filter is really not a 'perfect' valve as valves go; after all, an oil filter costs only a few dollars (yeah, Frosty, I know; for what Yanmar charges they ought to be gold plated :D) so they don't really build a proper check valve into it, it's really just a rubber disc backed up by a metal disc and a spring. But they usually only have to cope with siphon (negative) pressure, which actually aids the valve closing. The problem arises when this less-than-perfect valve is used in an 'upside-down' install where they have to cope with steady positive pressure, so that even if they leak only a little tiny bit, the filters will empty out, which is no good.

What you need is a PROPER check valve installed as a 'sandwich adapter' between the spin-on oil filter and the factory filter adapter (engine block). Since this will become a permanent part of the engine, it can be well-made and designed to not leak AT ALL. No more drainback; problem solved.

I see a cool aftermarket product offering, as well ;)

Jimbo

[globaldude]

Talked to a friend 20 years marine engineer .
" Oh yeah, thats typical from those engines , often its the centrifical oil filter rapidly slowing down on shut down " and the 7 - 10 seconds for oil preasure ?
" not uncomon, don't forget marine engines often have remote filters and oil coolers whereas automotive don't ,that's a lot of area to preasureise , a lot of the "delay" could be in the time it takes to get to the gauge !, does it actually rattle ?, I doubt it would , he should check the presure at the engine to see the speed at start up ".

For what its worth .
Id like to know if you find out what it is making the rattle or if the oil presure readings at the engine are a few second different .

Interesting you are replacing this and that and it's " making no diference" then say why should I have to do this [ or words to that effect .
Need I point out the obvious , ahh, If it made no difference , No, you didn't "have to do this" .

How do your " crappy " engines preform ? . apart from the two " problems " are they otherwise good ? [ don't let your problems colour your frosty opinion :rolleyes:

[Frosty]

Globaldude, there is no mention in my post of gauges, I said alarms, we have 2 engines in one boat and both are identical in the problems.

These engine do not have centrifugal filters or remote, they are Toyota 1HD engines from a Landcruiser.

It is not big end bearings that are rattling it is harmonic shudder through the transmission when the engines are turned off. Read the posts again.

[Jimbo1490]

His engines DO NOT have remote filters, rather the filter is installed 'upside-down'.

And what does performance have to do with a situation that's causing rapid wear? You don't imagine that such a situation would affect performance, do you? The engines might be 'performing' just fine and dandy but destined for a 1000 hour service life, which would be completely unacceptable. Worn out connecting rod bearing will have no effect on performance at all, right up to the moment the 'rapid disassembly' occurs.

Jimbo

[whoosh]

for you who are interested
to trouble shoot bearings BEFORE they cause trouble, take out the filter element
cut in half with hack saw , spread out the filtrate(paper) and you can READ the engine This was common practice when i was field service mech for cummins
And BEFORE someone shots down Cummins:)) most breakages were caused by overspeed( letting the load push the truck over rated rpm, ) and poor maintenence

[wardd]

or you can have the oil analyzed

[Frosty]

Geeex we are getting off topic a but here,-- but thats ok providing my thread does not get misunderstood. I do not have engine wear problems. The engines are sweet when up an running and idle oil pressure requirements are Perfect.

I am infact talking to Yanmar at the moment. The prob is they just don't know the answer as does no one else, if the oil filters drain then why don't they do it on a Toyota Landcruiser?? you could not get away with this in the motor industry.

As the prob is filter drain back some how I have hacked apart every one thats been on ,--and thats a lot, maybe a dozen or so in 170 hours of engine life, but for diagnostic reasons,-- to inspect anti drain valves for filter probs.

I would be devastated if I found even the slightest shimmer of metalic like substances.

Its possible that the filters drain through the outlet and not necessarily the in side where the anti drain valve is situated.

To drain back thro the in side would mean getting back through the main oil pressure relief valve on the pump. Now its possible that its draining thro the out side which means its draining thro the crank bearings that will be lower than the filter.

(For those who cant read, slow oil pressure build up on cold start only, after that we have perfection,--cold start, I mean daily.

Oil drains overnight, you can spin the filters off,--nothing in there no oil dry!!!!! )

We are not concerened with guages, could be slow alarm senders?

Both engines identical, Hmmm,-- 2 slow alarm senders?

Well No say Australia can not ever have same probs on 2 engines in one boat.

BUT the speed of the alarm does correlate with gauge readings.

But why think about it when the filters are empty on every cold start, thats the prob and no one knows why.

[Jimbo1490]

Frosty,

The number one cause of bearing wear is dry starts. This has been well documented in dyno testing. Almost every engine starts dry for some short (usually VERY short) period of time, but as long as this period is kept very short, it's considered acceptable, and not a big enough problem to be worth the complexity and expense of a pre-oil system to deal with it (though that would solve the problem COMPLETELY).

But your engines with their con rods clanking on for 10 seconds (as you stated) on starting is a big wear problem; it WILL wear the bearings out prematurely.

If you don't think it's causing any damage, then why are you so worried about it? Is it just the NOISE that bothers you? Then just wear ear plugs, for Christ's sake :D

But trust me, running dry for 10 seconds on every start IS causing excessive wear!

Jimbo

[Frosty]

For fcks sake,------Ok one more time.

The noise rattle is when the engines are turned off. OFF ---OFF--OFF. By that i mean STOPPED, FINISHED WITH,- OFF OFF.

It is torsional vibration rattling the gearbox clutch plates and is common. I dont like it, and Yanmar should not have it. They are crap like any other. Not the best that you pay for.

Most motorcycles do it.

Where the fck did I say con rods Clanking. ( as I stated)

Dry starts cause wear? you dont say? why do you think I started this thread? why do you think im trying to cure the prob.

Again for the hard of reading, ---I crank the engines 15 seconds or so before letting them fire.

Actually for starter motor cruelty sympathizers 2 lots of 6 seconds then let the button go.

Hey Jimbo Thanks for your help. But no more please.

[globaldude]

Keep ya pants on mate !!, just trying to offer possible causes . Don't know why I bothered as you know it all !. Good luck to you and your family .

[Frosty]

Globaldude you started Jimbo off on big ends rattling, Who the fck said that I have that???????????

I have put myself up in a precarious position, throwing stones at Yanmars legal departments windows trying to attract attention, everything I say is 100% true , I don't need some one coming in talking crap about big end bearings rattling.
Its Ok to speed read fiction, not technical information.

By all means read my posts on my problems then make a comment.

I think I know now why Yanmar does'nt come here.

My Family thanks you for your good wishes!!! what ever.

[FAST FRED]

Every engine will last longer with a Pre Lube before start.

This does not have to be a pump and motor ($$$$!),

a simple accumulator with a solenoid valve is cheaper and works for a cold start.

The solenoid on an oil accumulator is opened , and the engine started.

After a min or so the engine will have refilled, repressueized the accumulator tank, so the valve is closed.

Not useful for turboed engines where POST oiling will allow the bearings a better spin down , and cooling.

But its inexpensive and reliable.

FF

[RHP]

Keep ya pants on mate !!,

Frosty's pants came off years ago.... hence his al fresco responses. :D

[Frosty]

I like you RHP,--dunno why.

Lovley avatar. Must be your Accent.

[RHP]

I wish more women would say the same........

[Frosty]

FF do you have a link or even a name of a manufacturer. That sounds like it could be a cure and not a modification. It would be acceptable by the surveyor as an improvement too.

[Bigfoot1]

Before you spend the money on a prelube, you should really take the time and plug in a guage into an oil port. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, most electronically controlled guages are damped to purposely give a slow control response to an input to stabilze the needle. So while you are reading the OE guage and it is not up to spec, the engine may be at full oil pressure but the
OE guage takes time to put the needle up to spec.
Liquids are incompressible fluids, ie oil does not pressurize like an air compressor ( so that oil pressure does not build slowly ) so in a closed system ( which your engine is not) a single turn on the pump will provide downstream pressure. So if you take a simple bourdon tube guage which gives almost an instantaneous response, plug it into an oil pressurized port downstream of the pump, crank the engine and watch the guage. I would bet that the bourdon guage will read pressure within a few turns while the helm guages lags.

On the noise issue at shut down
It is almost impossible to dynamically balance any engine for all rpm ranges so engine designers will design the flywheel balancing profile to fit a general operating rpm, say 2600 on a low speed diesel or some other value.
They calculate imbalances due to the reciprocating masses of the pistons, con rods, crankshaft, and the effect of the compression as it loads the crank as well as the cylinder pressures/forces at combusion. In addition, a calculation must be made to determine the imbalance that accelerating a piston from bottom to top dead center creates.

Then the flywheel is balanced and provided enough mass to fit a narrow band width of rpm and load
This is to minimize vibration at usual working rpm
But in order for the flywheel mass or balance weights to work properly, they must be turning as the faster they turn the more effect that they have on the balancing process.
At shut down, this effect is loss as the rpms drop and at say under 500 rpm, probably extremely ineffective.
So the engine vibrates like heck until it stops,
Think not?
If you ever have the opportunity to watch a horizontally opposed piston airplane shut down, at the final 400 or so rpm, they shake so bad that you think the engine is going to come off its mounts. In a boat, it is difficult to get an extremely loose mounting system to absorb this vibration so we see the relatively violent shaking take place.

So I am putting on the table the cause of the vibration.

Of course this will manifest itself, in your case, in some extremely load noises from where ever you think that it is coming from. You say it is loud. Until a very recent reply, I think that some members were assuming that it could be the rod ends, which I doubt because the tolerances are too close. So in your case perhaps it is the Clutch I think you mentioned.

so the reason for the vibration as I see it is the shut off imbalance issue that most engines have, and mainly undamped in boats due to mechanical requirements of the components, which is causing noise.

For those who are interested
Comparing straight 4, straight 6, V-6, and V8 engines, a V-8 is the easiest to apply a flywheel balance process to make the engine smooth over a wide rpm range. Inherently the V-8 achieves the smoothest run and widest rpm range, probably followed by the V6 if the crank has offset pins. straight 4's and 6's are the worst. In fact when engines were first developed an eon ago, the 4 cylinder came first then the straight 6. Some manufacturers tried a straight 8 but could not control the vibration. So some genious came up with the idea to put a V into the configuration to smooth out the balance curve and the V-8 came into existence. and upon re reading this, I think that balance curve is not the right terminology, as it looks more like series of concentric circles. memory, who needs it

[seamy]

It would appear that frosty,is only happy when he is complaining about something,ive read this, and previous threads and the story is always the same,Last time out it was Arneson surface drives and some bullshit about what grows on them,who gives a f***,He will ask peoples opinions and when they reply, he snaps their head off,really dont know why people on the forum tolerate this crap,now he wants a go at yanmar,leave him to it thats what i say,thats just the way some people are:confused:

[apex1]

For those who are interested
Comparing straight 4, straight 6, V-6, and V8 engines, a V-8 is the easiest to apply a flywheel balance process to make the engine smooth over a wide rpm range. Inherently the V-8 achieves the smoothest run and widest rpm range, probably followed by the V6 if the crank has offset pins. straight 4's and 6's are the worst. In fact when engines were first developed an eon ago, the 4 cylinder came first then the straight 6. Some manufacturers tried a straight 8 but could not control the vibration.

Thank you Bigfoot, a good and valuable post. Until it came to the end. The straight six is the best balanced engine! Not the V8. Due to free forces of the second order! The V6 is the worst. In fact a V6 is not possible without balancing.
Well, the Boxer is as good, a tiny bit better actually (your airplane engine) but we have no Boxer engines in boats.
The widest useable range of rpm has the 4 cyl. due to the least internal friction, the V8 is worst.

Regards
Richard

[globaldude]

Globaldude you started Jimbo off on big ends rattling, Who the fck said that I have that???????????.

What was that about people not reading posts correctly ?.
Jimbo was off on the rattly big ends on post #24 before I put up any comment. appology acepted [refer below to cheek ]
[ although I rather suspect it was tounge in cheek -- stop it Jimbo, frostys past the humor stage ]
People in glass houses !.

[globaldude]

It would appear that frosty,is only happy when he is complaining about something,ive read this, and previous threads and the story is always the same,Last time out it was Arneson surface drives and some bullshit about what grows on them,who gives a f***,He will ask peoples opinions and when they reply, he snaps their head off,really dont know why people on the forum tolerate this crap,now he wants a go at yanmar,leave him to it thats what i say,thats just the way some people are:confused:

Now Seamy , did you have to go do that ? , reread old posts to get a profile :rolleyes: . You knew before you went to that trouble didn't you now ;)
But we all know people like that and typically the're the type that buy what they think they want and expect perfection [ after all they deserve nothing less ].
Unfortunately as most of us lesser mortals know, life's not like that, and so it falls to us to gently educate these tourtured souls in the fact that the glass is in fact half full , not half empty . That a soft answer turns away wrath , that the bull with the foul mouth is not appreciated in the china shop, but mostly that not everyone is super intelligent like us so we need to suffer the foolish but well meaning sugestions of the masses with dignity and decorum.

Seamy it's not a matter of tolerating , one could enter into the spirit of the thing and have some fun :D look at it as sport , you post, they bite , you reply, they bite harder [ get it ? ] to be sure to be sure :p
Now we all thought like you Seamy so don't feel bad , but you do realise you venting off like that makes you scarily close to our troubled freinds position :(
So next time, take the sporting responce, I assure you it's far more satisfiying and often challenging, after all, I'm sure their heated responces are satisfiying their need to berate the ignorant masses , so you'd be helping them:cool:

[Yellowjacket]

Frosty,

Get an Acusump. Here is a link http://www.accusump.com/

We use these on race cars all the time and they do a great job....

I'd get one of these before I beat up my engine any more...

They have a marine version with electric remote valves...

[Frosty]

Thank you Dr Fruad ( how do you spell Froad?)

I would just like to say that if I have upset anyone with my vicious character or said anything that might have --well you know made anyone cry for instance.

I would like to say that I don't really care. Listen you don't get through life by being trod on , you could try but !! you know.

Remember one thing my timid little friends there is no such thing as an intimidator, only the intimidated.

Im actually a big softy and the girls love me and hey --if you can outsmart a woman?---damn your good

EDIT

Oh I forgot to reply to yellow, yes I am seriously considering a remote filter kit "and" a prelube system.

Yanmar just dont know why my oil filters drain. There so many copy filters on the market I have read that they are so good even Toyota specialists cant tell.

I am not prepaired to buy filters off Yanmnar at 48pounds each including VAT so I will buy as mentioned. I am looking into it now.

Im not sure the storage tank system will hold enough to charge a dry filter which is my prob. An electric pump incorperated into the remote filter system would be nice for pre lube and post lube if you should so desire.

Post lube is suppose to keep pressure up till the turbo has stopped --I think that throwing flowers down after what I have at the moment.

The rattle --Yanmar confirms, is tortional rattle from the gearbox and is normal--Hmmmm. Not the big ends clanking about as was diagnosed by some engineers. It can be cured by buying an expensive Centa drive disc.

So there you go Yanmar, cummins, Catapilar??? take your choice I think ile have a bus engine next, can buy 2 for 2000 dollars, don't want to upset anyone.

[Frosty]

Just realized there was more posts on this. Yes the oil pressure could be the sender but as I have explained about Oh 5 times now the filters are dry. Once run the oil light and alarm and gauges operate in a second. Both engines with identical sender problems at the same time?

Lots of reasons can be attributed to a problem but then 2 engines standing next to each other with identical problems slows things up a bit.

The smoothest engine is a 5 cylinder for reversion reasons.

The six cylinder is the worst for tortional vibrations!!!

Is'nt it strange how the mind would say other wise, guessing always has these consequences.

Ive read it somewhere,!!! seen it in print I'll link it when I have time.

Believe it or not I have tortional vibration graphs for all Yanmar engines under 300HP.

[apex1]

The smoothest engine is a 5 cylinder for reversion reasons.

The six cylinder is the worst for tortional vibrations!!!



Do´nt believe all you read Frosty, do it like me, believe what you know.:D

[Frosty]

Hey Ive got a tortional vibrating 6 cylinder, its normal apparently, what don't I know?

The 4Lp's don't do it, well they probably do but the frequency is different and is handled by a different drive disc than the 6 's need,-- which now they have apparantly.

Buy yer the 6 cylinder is the smoothest,-- OK

Look at 6 cylinder engines, all have big dampers, dont take that off or you will break the crank.

[solofast]

Frosty,

It all comes down to one thing...

Yer problem is you're just too damn cheap.

The first thing you need to do is get rid of the cheap filters and pay the freight for a pair of Yanmar OEM filters. If that solves your problem, then you know it is nothing that is wrong with the engines, the problem is with the filters you are using, they simply don't have a good enough anti-drainback provision in them.

In Yanmar's mind, they figure that they have a solution, it's called their OEM filter. If you are too cheap to use what works, then you deserve whatever you get (which is pounded out bearings in pretty short order). I would also bet that if you go in now and say "my engine is shot" they aren't and probably shouldn't have a lot of sympathy for you. They are going to say (and rightly so) that you used an inferior filter and that it let oil drain back and you did a bunch of dry starts and that is what did the damage.

So, is it Yanmar's problem? Sorry, but I don't think so. Or, are Yanmar's crap? No probably not. They might be expensive to maintain properly, but if you aren't willing to maintain it with the proper parts, then it could end up costing you in the end. If you want to use a cheap filter, then get a pair of accusumps and pre-lube the engines, but don't complain if your bargain basement filter ruins your engine.

[Fanie]

Fascinating fread Frosty :D

If I wanted to go diesel inboard I would consider an Isuzu engine. Only problem is if you put two of them in you are back on 8 cylinders and as Mr Richard Apex indicated 8's are no good due to free forces of the second order :rolleyes:

I lu-huuu-huuuu-huuuuuuve 8's. You cannot use 8's in mono's. If you start them up the sheer torque will spin the mono instead of the prop ;)

[Fanie]

He he... Frosty, the thought just occured to me that if talking crap was a sling I could have been a Yanmar scrap yard :eek:

[Frosty]

Frosty,

It all comes down to one thing...

Yer problem is you're just too damn cheap.

The first thing you need to do is get rid of the cheap filters and pay the freight for a pair of Yanmar OEM filters. If that solves your problem, then you know it is nothing that is wrong with the engines, the problem is with the filters you are using, they simply don't have a good enough anti-drainback provision in them.

In Yanmar's mind, they figure that they have a solution, it's called their OEM filter. If you are too cheap to use what works, then you deserve whatever you get (which is pounded out bearings in pretty short order). I would also bet that if you go in now and say "my engine is shot" they aren't and probably shouldn't have a lot of sympathy for you. They are going to say (and rightly so) that you used an inferior filter and that it let oil drain back and you did a bunch of dry starts and that is what did the damage.

So, is it Yanmar's problem? Sorry, but I don't think so. Or, are Yanmar's crap? No probably not. They might be expensive to maintain properly, but if you aren't willing to maintain it with the proper parts, then it could end up costing you in the end. If you want to use a cheap filter, then get a pair of accusumps and pre-lube the engines, but don't complain if your bargain basement filter ruins your engine.

Thank you Solo, nice post and almost true.

The thing is you have read very well, much better than most except.

I did say I had bought many types of filter I did not say I used them. I cut them open. I have only ever used genuine (I think they are they cost the same ) Toyota 90915 30002 filters that came with the engine.

Tomorrow on Monday morning I am going to take one of my Toyota filters to the Toyota dealers and ask if this is a Toyota filter.

If you remove the paint from a Yanmar filter it says Toyota 90915 30002,--- a Yanmar use reported on the internet, and so did I.

However even if it is not,-- the valve should work ,--no?

I agree however that dry starts are not good and at 170 hours I have not yet done so cranking till oil and blood pressure comes up.

Theres a lot of information on crap filters on the internet and it appears to be a big problem for manufactures that have for some reason decided to fit filters upside down. I wonder why they do that???? It would wear the engine out quickly would'nt it?

http://knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/index.html

I have decided to fit 2 Italian Piusi pumps as a pre lube system. 200 dollars each if I can find a spare oil outlet place and T it into the sender.

Toyota filters, Yanmar filters or not. The benefits are obvious as is the increase of the boats value.

The point is I should not have to do this. 54,000 aus dollars for 2 Toyota engines.

Can you imagine the stress listening to an engine running with the alarm screeming for 10 seconds??? It would make me into a raving lunatic.

[Yellowjacket]

Frosty,,,

At least he got the cheap part right!!!

[mark775]

At least he got the raving lunatic part right (except the tense and causal relationship).

[Frosty]

At least he got the raving lunatic part right (except the tense and causal relationship).

I left that to see who would use it.

I cant believe someone actually did !!!!!!!!!!!!!

12 seconds of no oil pressure feels like 12 minutes in real time.

Not advisable for those with a n-n-n-nervous disposition.

Turning the key is a bit like having a sigmioscopy by a Philippine gynecologist.

Yes,-- makes you think am I doing the right thing a bit!!!

[Bigfoot1]

Some comments
I had stated that the V8 was the easiest to balance followed by the V6 with offest bearings and then the straight 6 being one of the hardest.
If anyone has taken Mechanical Engineering, and had to work out the balancing curve/graphs, they would know that the straight 6 is the worst, at least of this three configs
Not a big thing. If I can find some curves/graphs I will try to figure out a way to attach them to a post. I am new at the forum thing, I was trying to find out if a person could run D6 Volvos at idle for long hours without damaging them.
Reversion forces, free forces of the second order, these are terms that I have never heard of.

[Fanie]

V8's are the best. They last a lot longer, have better power than any 6 and in most cases are more fuel efficient as well. I wonder why they made the 6's. Probably just to fill the price gap between the 4 and the 8. No other reason.

free forces of the second order
That's only when your mind plays tricks with you :D

[apex1]

Some comments
[QUOTE]I had stated that the V8 was the easiest to balance

That is true, the V6 is much trickier to balance. The straight six is balanced by his nature, he is the smoothest engine possible (4 stroke).

Reversion forces, free forces of the second order, these are terms that I have never heard of.

Have never heard about reversion forces either, but free forces of the first, second and third order are what you have to fight, when you try to balance a IC engine (except 4 cyl. Boxer and straight six).

If you have´nt heard about these forces, or terms, then IC engines was not what you have studied.

Regards
Richard

[Frosty]

and then the straight 6 being one of the hardest.
If anyone has taken Mechanical Engineering, and had to work out the balancing curve/graphs, they would know that the straight 6 is the worst,


Thank you Bigfoot some people know,-- some just demand that they know.


Like I said take the harmonic balancer of an ole Jag and it would break the crank.

Reversion was something I brought up referring to the breathing characteristic of the 5 cylinder.

Some V 6 engines had dummy cranks to balance the motors spinning within the crank case, However tortional vibrations is my prob not balance.

[Frosty]

I think it was Fred who mentioned pre lubers. I have had a look at this and yes it does appear to be the way to cure the prob without too much fuss.

A yanmar expert has finally told me that the rattle is normal as is the oil filters draining on the 6LP. Taking 6 seconds to prime is'nt a problem due to the tight clearances on the 6LP. Mine take more than that.

Ok pre lube is a tank that looks like a divers tank upside down with a electric valve, it simply connects to the oil gallery via a 3/8 T fitting on the sender unit. Oil pressure forces oil onto the tank which then you turn off when max oil pressure is reached. This pressure is released when next cold start is required.

Great send me 2 , usps 59dollar, ups227 dollar,--fed ex 330 dollar.

The box is 6x14x14 16lbs. I could get a one way economy seat for 330 dollars!! nearly. I cant use UPS it is not trackable and it wont arrive.

So plan B 2 old fire extinguisher bottles that look amazingly like the original equipment!!!, 2 valves that I can get for 50 dollars each again look like original, some 3/8 fittings and some hydraulic pipe that I could improve on and use swaged fittings.

Its such a lovely simple system. Switch on pre lube, oil alarms should stop, guage starts to read, start engine. Providing I fit a large enough system to pressurize and fil the empty oil filter.

A pump can be used but you need an oil supply, not easy, you need another filter so you are not pushing unfiltered oil in the galleries. Bigger wiring, more maintenance etc etc.

[wardd]

seems to me the tank system is a one shot deal, where as an electric pump will run as long as you have current of course the inlet to the pump would be a little more difficult to rig up and a check valve on the outlet side and your in business and it could serve as an emergency pump, just in case both pumps failed on both engines, well it could happen

http://www.pre-luber.com/index.htm

is one i found

[Yellowjacket]

Using a simple bottle isn't as good as an Accusump, and here's why.

With an Accusump the accumulator does not start filling until a specific starting pressure is reached, and the Accusump drains essentially all of its oil into the gallery when it is opened.

A simple bottle that is pressurized by the oil, with an air trap above it, has essentially little or no oil pressure in it as the amount of oil in the bottle gets low. Near the end the bottle is just dribbling oil out and the accusump is pushing its oil out into the gallery. With a simple bottle system the system drains oil from the engine into the bottle as the oil presure is increasing, just when the engine needs oil. Or if you shut the valve off, it drains oil from the engine when the engine is running, so in that case you need an orifice to control flow into the bottle.

In short, the Accusump gets more oil at pressure out into the engine than a bottle of similar size. It has orifices that are based on the accumluator size to provide oil to the accumulator at a proper rate so that the engine doesn't lose oil flow when it actually needs it.

The accumulator systems will do what Frosty wants to do, and it appears that the pump systems have a lot more that can go wrong with them. An Accusump system is about $100 less expensive than the electric pre-lube system noted above. Either one will do the job. Just spend a few bucks and do it right. If you try to cheap it out, and do a home made system it may work just fine, but it might not and if it doesn't it isn't worth the risk to your engines. I am thinking specifically about orifice sizes and filling of the bottles here, how to open the valves ect...

[Frosty]

Its such a simple devise its like saying a bucket wont work. Funny we had this same conversation over a beer last night , one guy was unable to grasp the idea and said the same thing.

On initial start up the engine pumps oil into the tank accumulator, nothing will stop that, then the 12 solenoid valve is manually shut when the oil pressure is at its highest. There it sits till the next start where the oil is released not drained into the engine. Your very own suggestion of accusumps web site adequately explains the simple theory.

http://www.accusump.com/accusump_tech.html

http://www.autoenginelube.com/

Damage to my engines?

Providing all fittings and tanks are clean I don't see what you mean. A discharge of any oil at all into my empty filters is a million miles in front of what I have now.

3/8 fittings is hardly considered high flow and a 3/8 rubber hose to a valve would already be a resistance over the 1/2 inch galleries in the engine.

[Bigfoot1]

That is true, the V6 is much trickier to balance. The straight six is balanced by his nature, he is the smoothest engine possible (4 stroke).


Have never heard about reversion forces either, but free forces of the first, second and third order are what you have to fight, when you try to balance a IC engine (except 4 cyl. Boxer and straight six).

If you have´nt heard about these forces, or terms, then IC engines was not what you have studied.


Studied, ran lab tests on ic engines, perhaps the terminology is different in Europe than here re forces of the second order etc But upon reading your post and others, perhaps, I did not explain balancing.
Most mechanically connected people know about the term "to balance an engine" as being balancing the crank by spinning and weighting or drilling and measuring the weight of components such as con rods, pistons etc and matching them by weight. This is not what I am talking about.
It is dynamic balancing of all of the reciprocating components AND more importantly the effect that uneven loading of the crankshaft due to the forces that are imposed upon the crankshaft due to compression of the mixture which loads the crank, the forces from the power stroke upon ignition, and more importantly the forces on the crank due to accelerating the piston, con rod mass up and down the cylinder bore. And of course these happen at different angular positions of the crank.

So if you do the calculations and imprint them on the balance graph, you will see that even if all of the similar components are balanced by weight, that when you run the engine for a given rpm, that the whole system is not in balance. Plus and this is important, the load that the crank is putting out the shaft factors in.
So it is dynamic balancing that I am speaking here. A V6 cannot be balanced perfectly even with the offset big end bearing journals, dynamically.

hope this clears things up some of the confusion

[Yellowjacket]

Damage to my engines? Providing all fittings and tanks are clean I don't see what you mean. A discharge of any oil at all into my empty filters is a million miles in front of what I have now.

3/8 fittings is hardly considered high flow and a 3/8 rubber hose to a valve would already be a resistance over the 1/2 inch galleries in the engine.

Frosty,

Think about it for a minute. Your "bucket" is open to the pressure side of your oil pump with essentially no pressure in it when you go to start your engine, then before you can put any pressure to the bearings you have to put oil into the bucket. That is, your accumulator has the same pressure in it as does your oil gallery. What happens is that you are going to see a big lag in pressure rise during startup. Oil will flow to both the bearings, and to the pressure bottle, but the pressure in both is the same, so, depending on the size of your bottle and how fast it gets pressurized, you are going to have oil that should be going to your brearings, going into the accumulator. While your homemade accumulator is filling, just after startup, your engine isn't getting the oil it is supposed to get. The Accusump has a pressurized piston arangement that prevents oil from flowing into the Accusump until you get pressure to the bearings. Above that minimum pressure, then oil flows into the Accusump, but at that point the system has plenty of oil and the pressure at the bearings is never lower than the minimum. A homemade upside down fire bottle won't do that.

While your galleries are half inch, the restriction in the system is the bearing clearances, and those are in the thousandths of an inch. Opening a 3/8's line would be like a dump compared to the bearing clearances. If you put a gage on your bottle and compared it to your oil pressure gage on the engine, there isn't going to be any difference. If you want it to work at all you need a small restrictor so that you get pressure to the bearings first and then your bottle fills slowly. Unfortunately, you want the output dump to be large so that the pre-oiling gets done quickly. Maybe a one way valve with a small restrction orifice in it on the inlet side and a dump valve on the outlet would work. But I think that the Accusump system is a better idea.

Unless you know how much oil your pump can put out, and what minimum pressure you need versus engine speed, you are asking for trouble. You might get lucky and it might work, but it also might spin the bearings and ruin an engine. To my mind, to save a few dollars, and not buy something that you know will work is not a wise decision.

[mark775]

You are trying to educate the uneducable. Frosty now knows everything about the subject.

[Yellowjacket]

You are trying to educate the uneducable. Frosty now knows everything about the subject.

Yea, we have a situation where somebody is bull-headed, cheap and lives in frickin BFE so even if he figures out what he wants to do, he can't even get on line and buy what he needs to do the job right, but then he bellyaches about his problems....

Maybe he ought to start it up and let it rattle one more time and drive it to someplace where he can buy what he needs to do it right. Australia is close enough... Frosty, head south...

[Frosty]

Why do you think oil will rush into the tank first? Its the tank that has just primed the engine. The tank wether it has a piston with a spring or just air will work the same way.

The accumulator is not on the side of the oil pump, the accumulator is after the oil pressure relief valve, the oil filter and 3.8 fittings and pipe. The oil will flow towards bearings at an equal rate.

It would appear that you are understanding the idea but feel that oil will for some reason flow into a closed tank??? try blowing into it and see how much air you can get in.

Any oil in that 3.8 pipe will become hard to push into the accumulator and so keep most oil in the engine.

The Yanmar 6LP has piston coolers , that is jets of oil. The pump is of high volume.

Remember at the present time I have no oil in my filter or presumably the galleries, it is an absolute dry start. Pressure injecting 1 quart of oil would be helpful at any speed it likes. I expect to wait 5--6 seconds and see the alarms go off.

If you take advantage of my links on the prelube site there is a boat with 2 Yanmar 6 LPs with the system on it, read what the owner says.

I don't see it written anywhere that the accusump is anything different than the autoprelube.

Finally again for those that fabricate thier own information,-- please for the last time it does "not" rattle when the engine starts, this is getting stupid and tedious and is not helping your reputation as a worth while poster.

If you don't use smilies I cant tell if your yanking my chain or you really cant read and believe this wont work.

But then you think it may not work As you technically explained [I might get lucky and it might work.]

I would be delighted to have this discussion on this simple technology that is becoming more and more used in engines that stand unused for long periods.

[Yellowjacket]

Lets take this on one item at a time, and then I'm done....

Why do you think oil will rush into the tank first?

You aren't listening. Oil won't rush into the tank first, it will flow from the pump to the gallery, but without a small restriction between the tank and the gallery, the pressure in the gallery will be the same as that of the tank. The tank pressure does not instantly come up, it takes oil volume to raise the pressure in the tank. To get 15 psi in the tank and gallery, with a two quart tank it will take about a quart of oil in the tank. How much oil does it take to fill the gallery and filter? If you guess about a quart, you are probably close, I doubt it is more than 2 quarts.

Its the tank that has just primed the engine. Right, so lets assume that the tank is now empty.

The tank wether it has a piston with a spring or just air will work the same way.

Wrong! If you were in a fluids class you would have just failed… If the tank is preloaded NO oil will flow into the tank until the preload is overcome. This is a key difference. This feature lets the bearings get to pressure and insures a minimum pressure in the gallery before flow is siphoned off to fill the tank. I have tried to explain this a couple of times, but you just don't seem to get it. This is the last time I will try…

The autoprelube siphons off oil continuously as the pressure in the gallery rises. The accusump does not. At startup, when the entire lube system is full of oil (and the reservoirs are empty) if you plotted pressure versus time and compared the two pressure curves you would see that the system with the accusump would have an instant step in pressure to the preload pressure value, then pressure would increase to the normal idle pressure over a period of time following a curve based on the method of tank pressurization. With a simple unrestricted tank, the pressure will rise from zero to the full delivery pressure in essentially a parabolic curve, starting at zero, with a time constant based on the time required to fill the tank. The time at low pressure will be minimal with the accusump. With an unrestricted tank system you will have a slower ramp up of pressure and it will start from zero.

The accumulator is not on the side of the oil pump, the accumulator is after the oil pressure relief valve, the oil filter and 3.8 fittings and pipe. The oil will flow towards bearings at an equal rate.

The accumulator is attached to the gallery, the relief valve has nothing to do with this. It is closed all during this time. Assuming that the accumulator is between the oil pump and the bearings, the oil flow will split to the path of least pressure. Unless you know the jet areas and bearing areas, you have no idea which way the oil is going to flow.

It would appear that you are understanding the idea but feel that oil will for some reason flow into a closed tank??? try blowing into it and see how much air you can get in. Any oil in that 3.8 pipe will become hard to push into the accumulator and so keep most oil in the engine.

Your lungs can develop about 1.5 psi, or essentially nothing, and blowing air is totally different than increasing pressure via volume displacement, so your blowing into the tank analogy is not relevant.

As I said, it takes a quart of oil to get 15 psig in a two quart tank. A pint of oil will raise the pressure in the tank to about 3.5 psig. Simple pressure volume relationship. If it took 12 seconds to fill a filter and gallery (about a quart), then your flow rate is about 1 gpm. I doubt it is that low, but it can't be more than 2 gpm at cranking and idle. Big block Chevy racing engines at full power flow between 10 and 12 gpm, so this estimate is probably not that far off. If half the flow went to the tank (which you don't think will happen) the flow rate in the 3/8ths pipe is at most 1 gpm. At 1 gpm or less a 3/8ths pipe is no restriction at all. Get on line and look at the line loss in a 3/8ths pipe. At these flow rates you aren't going to have any measurable line loss. Unless you restrict the flow to the tank, you are going to need something on the order of 5 to 6 seconds to build measurable pressure (more than 3.5 psi) in the gallery. This is assuming that half the oil is flowing to the gallery and half to the tank up to 3.5 psi. With oil jets it may be longer because so much is flowing out the jets. You’re supposed to be an engineer, you could have figured this out, it isn't rocket science.

The Yanmar 6LP has piston coolers , that is jets of oil. The pump is of high volume.

What is high volume? At what RPM? You have no idea other than the estimate that I just made as to the pump capacity, which is not a lot at these low speeds. Piston coolers just mean that more oil will go out the jets before you get bearing pressure.

Remember at the present time I have no oil in my filter or presumably the galleries, it is an absolute dry start. Pressure injecting 1 quart of oil would be helpful at any speed it likes. I expect to wait 5--6 seconds and see the alarms go off.

I don't know at what pressure the alarms go off at, if it is 15 psi, you will wait a lot longer than that. If it is 3-5 psi, you may be close. Not having the bearings dry is going to be an improvement, but if your goal is to get good oil pressure to the bearings unless you restrict the flow to the tank it may not do what you want. This is the crux of what I have been trying to say.

If you take advantage of my links on the prelube site there is a boat with 2 Yanmar 6 LPs with the system on it, read what the owner says.

That is an engineered system with proper orifices in it that could make a huge difference in the way it performs as compared to the jury rig system that you were talking about building yourself.

I don't see it written anywhere that the accusump is anything different than the autoprelube.

See the note above about preload, it is clearly different. You are simply not listening or don’t want to understand the difference.

this is getting stupid and tedious and is not helping your reputation as a worth while poster.

I think everybody here can judge who is listening or trying to be serious.

Its not wonder you cant grasp simple pressure theories.

The relationship is indeed simple, it’s called the relationship between volume and pressure, and unfortunately you don’t seem to get it.

I’m done with trying to help you.

[Frosty]

Right then, "rolls up sleeves" I have read everything on Accusump. there are some issues here.

Accusump is primarily a pressure stabalizer for racing applications of cars loosing oil pressure round corners ,--waiting at traffic lights etc. Oil surge protector.

The pre lub is a simple system . The cannister has to be upright to work not like the accusump.

My goal is not or ever has been to get good oil pressure in the system before firing, you know that. I will be happy if I get no alarm and a simple guage movement.

The pre lub can aslo be precharged by a schrader valve in the top of the cylinder. For pre lubing once every 3 months it will be fine.

When I get used to the system I will be able to flick the switch to absorb the oil pressure at my liking. And if you like I can turn the valve off as soon as it fires and slowly milk in the pressure watching the guage rise.

I have located 2 carbon fibre co2 fire extinguisher pressure cannisters that look identical to the prelube system.

Carbon firbe --nice.

If I cant get any answers from Yanmar on why my filters drain I have to stand on my own two feet, stop crying and get myself out of the shit.

Criticism that it "may not work" will not deter me. Sitting in front of the fire with my slippers on writing cheques to Fedex and ebay is not my way.

I designed and built my own surface drives and deep sea seals that have been trouble free for years(forgot about the seals) they work better and more efficient then the manufacturers does with 100HP less.

I think I can make a little luber system that will help dry starts on my Crap Yanmars.

But please (hands clasped together) please continue with your constructive criticism.

[masalai]

So, if Yamnars are crap, what are Sramnay's like? maybe a backwards Yanmar will be a step forward? I can remember stories of used car salesmen used to put bananas in the sump to stop some of the noise in that area... does that work?

[Frosty]

hello mas what you doing here?

[masalai]

Waiting for you to finish typing and post something... CYA later, time to clean up ready for dinner...

[murdomack]

Frosty,

I think you are right, you can do what you want without a spring loaded reservoir or orifices. On your 3/8" line you will probably have a starter signal operated solenoid valve. You will by-pass this valve to recharge the tank. and

You could try a pressure switch signaled solenoid valve and a non-return valve in line on your by-pass and see how that works. You could also rig up pressure switches so that you know that your bottles are charged before you hit the starter.

Your system will have to be bigger than a spring loaded reservoir as it will only half-empty before the rising engine oil back pressure stops the flow. Maybe you need to add an air bladder in your extinquisher:D Still, good luck, hope you get a result.

[Frosty]

Murdo, The solenoid valve will be manually operated, I mean switched by me.

I don't understand why you think that the bottles will charge up before I hit the starter?

Obtained the bottles,-- 4 inch by 17 exactly the same size as the pre lubes suggested size of 4 quarts. Co2 fire extinguishers.

I just released them at the back of the airport it made a lot of smokey stuff. I thought I might have had security running after me. I could have chosen a better place I suppose.

Next job, mountings and valves.

From accusumps pictures,-and pre lube its easy to sea the valve they use. It is a diaphrgm type, this type is of quick discharge ie 1 1inch flow hole making me wonder if yellowbutt is right or not.

[murdomack]

I did not mean that the bottles would charge up before you hit the starter, you have explained that you will charge them up when the engine is running on its previous run. I am merely suggesting to you that you could have more controls to tell you that the bottles had pressure (i.e. oil) in them before you open your valve.

Valves tend to leak over time, and if that happened and you were not aware of it your alarm would be going again, and your open valved bottle would be taking oil pressure away and not supplying it at the crucial time.

You are concerned about the large valve, and this is why I suggested a by-pass round this valve for re-filling. You could have a mini-bore solenoid valve powered from the engine pressure switch that would remain open while the engine was running. An in-line non-return valve on this by-pass would ensure that you got the maximum pressure in your bottle.

[apex1]

[QUOTE]
It is dynamic balancing of all of the reciprocating components AND more importantly the effect that uneven loading of the crankshaft due to the forces that are imposed upon the crankshaft due to compression of the mixture which loads the crank, ........So it is dynamic balancing that I am speaking here.

That was exactly what I understood and referred to. There was no confusion.

And I doubt that there is a different terminology in use either side of the pond.

When you imagine to hold this in your hands:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image001.gif

you would feel the "rotating mass forces" vibrating your hand. These are "free masses of the first order", the vibration is caused by the resulting "free forces of the first order". Whereas this:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image002.gif
has a balanced rotating mass and no "free forces" that vibrate your hand.

But now we have a piston and conrod:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image003.gif

and the latter has two masses, a rotating one and a oscillating one. The former can be balanced by increasing the counterweight, the latter can be balanced to a certain extend only and therefore there are "free masses of the first order" remaining. This balance would look like this:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image004.gif

A simple two cyl. 2 stroke engine has these masses balanced:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image005.gif

But now, due to the assymetric movement of the pistons we have "free mass moments of the first order" which let the engine "wobble" on its centerline.
To compensate that we could use a 2 cy. 4 stroke like this one:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image006.gif
Now we do´nt have free moments, but twice as strong free forces.
With a four cyl. 4 stroke we have solved that problem.
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image007.gif

Thats why they are so common.

But now we have the "second order"! A strange phenomenon. And surprisingly we have the fact that the pistons are NOT moving with the same speed!?! Hahh seems unbelievable yahh? But it is a fact! Look here:

http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image009.jpg


You clearly see that the upper piston has moved a longer distance than the lower one! (of course at the end of the stroke both have moved the same distance at the same speed)
To calculate that phenomenon you can use pure geometry:
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/img5.gif
where the multiplication of the acceleration with the piston mass results in a force (our free mass force) the first part of the formula shows the first, the second part the (much smaller) second order (and so on).

The six cyl. in line balances these forces perfectly.
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image010.gif

The Boxer engine has no free forces or moments as long as you can divide the cyl. nrs. by two.
http://www.brucewilles.de/massenausgleich-Dateien/image011.gif


We now could go on with ignition angles and cyl. bank angles and the like until the final elimination of any unbalanced force, but that would cost me too much time typing here. But maybe I find some text to copy.

So, to quote you:
Bigfoot: hope this clears things up some of the confusion
and Frosty:
some people know,-- some just demand that they know.

Well, so it is Frosty, well observed! And when you question someone make sure you know whom and on which topic.

Ok, so we have to go further:

The V8 in its simplest form, it is basically two straight-4 engines sharing a common crankshaft. However, this simple configuration, with a single-plane crankshaft, has the same secondary dynamic imbalance problems as two straight-4s, resulting in vibrations in large engine displacements. As a result, since the 1920s most V8s have used the somewhat more complex crossplane crankshaft with heavy counterweights to eliminate the vibrations. This results in an engine which is smoother than a V6, while being considerably less expensive than a V12 engine. Racing V8s (Ferrari Testarossa) continue to use the single plane crankshaft because it allows faster acceleration and more efficient exhaust system designs

The cross-plane or two-plane crankshaft is the configuration used in most V8 road cars. The first and last of the four crank pins are at 180° with respect to each other as are the second and third, with each pair at 90° to the other, so that viewed from the end the crankshaft forms a cross. The cross-plane can achieve very good balance but requires heavy counterweights on the crankshaft. This makes the cross-plane V8 a slow-revving engine that cannot speed up or slow down very quickly compared to other designs, because of the greater rotating mass. While the firing of the cross-plane V8 is regular overall, the firing pattern of each bank is LRLLRLRR. In cars with dual exhausts, this results in the typical V8 burble sound that many people have come to associate with American V8s, In all-out racing cars it leads to the need to connect exhaust pipes between the two banks to design an optimal exhaust system, resulting in an exhaust system that resembles a bundle of snakes as in the Ford GT40.

The flat-plane or single-plane crankshaft has crank pins at 180°. They are imperfectly balanced and thus produce vibrations unless balance shafts are used, with a counter rotating pair flanking the crankshaft to counter second order vibration transverse to the crankshaft centerline. As it does not require counterweights, the crankshaft has less mass and thus inertia, allowing higher rpm and quicker acceleration. The design was popularized in modern racing with the Coventry Climax 1.5 L (~92 cu in) V8 that evolved from a cross-plane to a flat-plane configuration. Flat-plane V8s on road cars come from Ferrari, (every V8 model they ever made, from the 1973 308 GT4, to today's F430 and California), Lotus (the Esprit V8), and TVR (the Speed Eight). This design is popular in racing engines, the most famous example being the Cosworth DFV.
So, how so ever we look at it, the V8 is not in balance.

Torsional vibration is a concern in the crankshafts of internal combustion engines because of several factors.

1) Alternating torques are generated by the slider-crank mechanism of the crankshaft, connecting rod, and piston.
2) The motion of the piston mass and connecting rod mass generate alternating torques often referred to as "inertia" torques
3) The cylinder pressure due to combustion is not constant through the combustion cycle.
4) The slider-crank mechanism does not output a smooth torque even if the pressure is constant
5) The piston speed is not constant

The well balanced 6cyl. has the least torsional issues due to the fact that the crankshaft has more bearings per cyl. than any V engine.

Firing pattern and bank angle.
To achieve the smoothest possible engine the common firing pattern is 720° (referring to crankshaft circle) divided by cyl. numbers. Therefore a V6 has a common cyl bank angle of 120°, a V8 90° leading to imbalanced masses on either side of the center compared with a straight 4 or 6 where the masses are vertically balanced.


Regards
Richard

[masalai]

Waaaarrrk I was so pleased with your efforts I tried to award some positive rep but "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to apex1 again." seems I gave just recently so am inhibited ....... ....... ....... Have some psuedo points instead .......... ..........

[apex1]

Waaaarrrk I was so pleased with your efforts I tried to award some positive rep but "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to apex1 again." seems I gave just recently so am inhibited ....... ....... ....... Have some psuedo points instead .......... ..........
Thanks MAS I took them as given......................

[Frosty]

Lovely pictures --moving as well, very nice, but we were talking about tortional vibration.

You know what torsional vibration is don't you?

That is the frequenecy of the cycles of power from power strokes or compressions resulting in erratic rotating moment of the crankshaft.

I dont think anyone disagreed on the balance.

It is tortional vibration that was making the gearbox rattle.

[Frosty]

There are no Accessories more than an alternator as standard. Engines are out of the box plug ins.

Engines are separate in every way even fuel.

Yanmar have said that the rattling gearboxes are normal on the 6LP. There is a new drive plate available and is expensive at thier own admission.

It is only when stopping the engines, so if the housing was out it would make noise all the time. The noise is just the crank stopping and rattling the drive because of torsional vibration from the 6 cylinder engine.

There Expert and teacher at Yanmar Australia has said that it is common also for the filters to drain on the 6LP?????? now that I don;t understand as said these engines are Toyota and you would not put up with that in your car.

They don't know and don't want to know, they have my money and warranty is long gone.

They no longer use the Toyota engine for this leasure boat class but have moved over to a BMW derivative. I wonder why?

[whoosh]

well cant you search a drive plate from another manufacturer same spline same drill pattern, or get a blank, have it drilled?

[Frosty]

Its a special plate made by Centa, when I took mine out it seemed then 4 years ago to be the right one, ie it was by Centa, Im confused to be honest what it needs. Yanmar seem reluctant to tell me what I need ,i suppose in case it does'nt cure it. The one I have has big rubber bushes in and not the spring type that we are all used to. Yanmar dont know what I have in mine yet they built up the motor for delivery to me.

As you can probably tell I am tired of the whole thing and will have to live with the rattle and tell future buyers that it is normal.

But I will email Yanmar and ask the part number of the Centa that is supposed to cure the prob.

[apex1]

Lovely pictures --moving as well, very nice, but we were talking about tortional vibration.
It is tortional vibration that was making the gearbox rattle.

Frosty, if you would have read my text (not only look at the pictures) you would have noticed that I mentioned inertia when referring to motion of the piston mass and connecting rod mass generating alternating torques. Though I used the correct term forces.


And I edited my post above

[Frosty]

Hey Murdo Ive been thinking about what you said. You mean fit 2 valves one slow for charging the bottle and one fast for priming the engine!!! not a bad idea.

Actually over the days that I have been locating parts I have come up with a few mods myself, for instance the valve can be right on the engine not necessarily on the bottle. I even thought of a manual valve for long term storage T'd off to 2 valves.

Maybe getting a bit overboard but thanks for the idea.

Pssst by the way,-- Yanmar are talking again.

[Yellowjacket]

You are concerned about the large valve, and this is why I suggested a by-pass round this valve for re-filling..

A separate fill/dump valving is what was suggested way back in post 25...

Maybe a one way valve with a small restrction orifice in it on the inlet side and a dump valve on the outlet would work.

No need to use a solenoid valve for the input circuit, a simple check valve will work just fine. In fact you could use a 15 psi preloaded check valve (parker makes them) and that would be about right. Then the valve wouldn't crack open until you get 15 psi in the gallery (giving you fast ramp up of pressure to 15 psi) and when you had 30 psi the gallery you would have a half a gallon of oil in the one gallon tank (which should be plenty of oil for the next pre-lube). That way you only need to control the dump, which would be on a momentary switch, and the only time it is working is when it is dumping. To start, hit the momentary dump switch, wait 15 seconds, release the dump switch and start the engine. Forget about it after that.

Much more simple than using different valves, and trying to figure out when to open and when to shut them and what size and restriction you need, more reliable and cheaper too.......

So now we find that your accumulator is twice as big as even I was assuming. Double the size, more than double the time to increase the pressure in the galleries. If you aren't careful here you can do more harm than good....

From accusumps pictures,-and pre lube its easy to sea the valve they use. It is a diaphrgm type, this type is of quick discharge ie 1 1inch flow hole making me wonder if yellowbutt is right or not.

Well, as Homer Simson would often say.... DOH!!!! :idea:

It's about time you started thinking. Some folks here are trying to help you and you seem to want give all of them a bad time. Sounds more like you don't want to really solve any problems, you just want to gripe out loud....

As you finally noticed, Accusump sytem has a big flow capacity and that is actually good for your particular application. If you don't move a good bit of fluid you aren't going to purge the filter. If you just dribble oil into the gallery upstream of the filter, the filter, being upside down, will still have an air pocket in it and all of the work you are doing won't do you a lot of good. The alarms will go off sooner, but you will end up delivering a shot of air to the bearings just after the engine is running, which may or may not be an issue, but if you are going to all this trouble, why not do it right....

You need to send a slug of oil into the filter to purge the air in it. Hence a good size valve and delivery tube in the dump side of your system, and a smaller restricted inlet side to control filling is the best approach.

[captim]

Hello Frosty,

Who are you dealing with in Australia?? I have just installed a set of 6CX-GTE2 -500hpengines in my boat and have 25hrs on the engines. I read with interest your problems.

Hopefully I wont recieve the same when I develope a problem and go looking for help.
My choice for Yanmar was made because a friend of mine has a set in a boat the same as mine with 6000 hrs with not a spanner on them. I'm looking for the same result. Time will tell.

[captim]

I was given the Cente-R -rated drive coupling for my transmissions. I have twin disc 2.05:1 boxes (5075-A) Yanmar told me the coupling I got was the heavy duty "expensive" one. I have used them before. Vulcan in Sydney also manufacture another similar style of coupling which is real good also. There is however a new type which uses a clear/light coloured silicon/rubber type material comparred to the black rubber they used to use. its not as easy to see the wear now though as its light coloured which makes the dust hard to see in a clean engine room.
I will check the number for you and get it to you.
What trans are ou running?? I had ZF and they do have a rattle compared to the twin disc's

[Frosty]

Hello Captim

I don't know what coupling I have, I took it out 4 years ago and I now just live with the prob. However I have just made a new contact in Yanmar who is showing real concern.

I have the ZF/Hurth 63A down 8 degree 2.5:1 ratio.

The problem with Yanmar is different people say different things like oh yes thats normal then another guy will say geez that bizarre.

I think I might have just managed to get high enough up the slippery chain to find a guy that can do something, 7 year old engines now 156 hours only.

I could do with talking to that guy you know on drive plate issues. You see this is the prob, in 7 year Ive not gotten to talk to some one that knows anything.

If the crank shudders to a stop I cant imagine anything that will stop the gear train from bouncing backwards and forwards with it, as it is bolted direct. Ok the drive plate may cushion drive but that would be difficult to cure.
You had the rattle too on your ZF's?

This may be a ZF issue but no one at Yanmar has figured that yet.

I would have thought a heavier fly wheel would help to absorb the tortional "forces"!!

You have bought marine engines and are a much better but very heavy motor. The 6 Lp is half a Toyota landcruiser motor, infact I think the only engine from the auto market that Yanmar uses. They did'nt tell me that when I bought them.

I bought these because they are light, so light you can get hold of them and shake them around to line the mount holes up,--thats light for 250HP

[TollyWally]

Frosty,
By coincidence the topic of Accusumps just popped up on another site I frequent. It is mostly about ultra high perormance drag boats etc. Most of the guys there are quite knowledgable and some are downright brilliant on the minutia of internal combustion. This thread just started but if it gathers steam it might be worth your while to eavesdrop a bit.

http://www.performanceboats.com/html/forums/showthread.php?t=44957

On a slightly different note 10 or 15 years back we toured the local Coast Guard cutter in Homer. Sort of a know your enemy tour. They kept the oil circulating through the engines and through a warming tank. The idea being they could fire up and go out and hassle some poor fisherman at a moments notice. For a while the commander would run the cutter in a text book zig zag torpedo avoidance pattern. He gave that up after wrapping his wheels in the steel cables securing some outside setnet buoys. Good times.

[Frosty]

Thats right wally the Accusump is meant to substitute oil pump pressure temporarily due to forces acting on the engine that will starve the pump of supply. Such as high speed cornering or the engine being subject to G' forces.

I am not suffering such forces, just need to fill the filter and a very simple prelube will sufice.

The tank system and valves would mean I had the choice of filling the tank at start up or before shut down, I would have total control with a manually operated electric valve, totaly eradicating the complications of restricting orifice or slow fill valves.

In other words turn the valve off after start (tank empty) run the engine at 2000RPM before turning off , do anyway to cool turbo's then flick the switch on and off and slowly fill the tank. Turn off switch and go home.

The valve could be fitted to the engine meaning failure of any pipe etc would be irrelevant.

[TollyWally]

I don't have a problem with self engineered solutions. In fact sometime I specialize in them. I just remembered it being mentioned in this thread and then saw it posted over there tonight. If those guys get into it there coud be all kinds of fascinating tidbits. I'd like to see pics of whatever you might end up doing.

[Frosty]

Wally, Sometimes I don't understand people , you know every thing on this planet was self engineered at one time.

The space shuttle was'nt a bought one its cocked together buy guys that have never been to space!!!! they made everything them selves. Seems to work ok

Formula 1 racing is all new, --new stuff every year that no one has seen before.
Im quite proud of the fact that I made my own surface drives and have been congratulated for a simple system. they work perfectly and If I was offered Arnesons for free I would'nt take them.

I think I can make up a pre lube accumulator tank, its not leaving the planet or anything.

Infact the prelube may very well be one guys home made kit nicely packaged with pipes and fittings. My tanks are amazingly the same size and shape??????

It hard to imagine how you could get this simple system wrong so that it wouldnt work.

Ille take some pics.

[TollyWally]

I often think the same way as you. What one man can make, so can another.

20 years back a company called North American Jet developed what they called the tractor jet for seine skiffs. It was a low pressure high volume pump in contrast to the normal high pressure low volume pumps used in faster jet boats.

It was pretty successful and lives on in several different variations. The first ones displayed at the fisherman conventions were obviously shop built rather crude affairs. You could see exactly how they were put together. An advanced apprentice machinest could make one himself by copying their model. The next year things were much more slick and it wasn't nearly as obvious how it all went together. And so on until it was a manufactured, designed, product mysteriously shrouded with streamlined castings etc. that did not look at all like the sort of thing a bright guy could cobble together.

I'd love to have the details of your surface drives. It's the sort of thing I'd like to make someday but probably would never get around to it. Still the ability would be fascinating. I can understand if you wanted to keep the details a secret though.

I also have a fetish for a self built controllable pitch propellor set up. An old friend was the engineer on an old research boat for the local university. About 80 feet or so built in the late 50's would be my guess. It had a controllable pitch set up that he raved about. He had been a machinest in a previous life and his old man was a naval architect who came up the hard way. He had been a draftsman and then went to Westlawn. I remember thumbing through his textbooks when I was a kid. The son said on more than one occasion he could make one. Sadly he passed away a year or so in his mid 50's.

I find myself rambling, I will bring this to a close. I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labors.

[murdomack]

Frosty,

Just reading your chat with Tolly Wally, where you say that the engine runs and the tanks (bottles) are empty then you rev up and refill them before shutting down.

Will adding all that extra oil to the engine and leaving it in while it is running be an issue? Maybe something else to think about.


Yellowjacket,

The pre-loaded NRV would work fine for a fill line, but it would only need a spec of contaminant on the face and it would backflow. Using a mini-bore solenoid ball valve operated by the pressure switch would be more quaranteed to seal every time, adding a cheap NRV to this would help it capture the maximum oil pressure before it shut.

Anyway, I think Frosty is looking for a simple system to start with. He can add goodies as he wants when he knows that it works.:)

[Frosty]

Frosty,
Will adding all that extra oil to the engine and leaving it in while it is running be an issue? Maybe something else to think about.



Anyway, I think Frosty is looking for a simple system to start with. He can add goodies as he wants when he knows that it works.:)

Damn Murdo , do you notice everything . I knew that but I thought I could get away with it. Its a big motor taking 11 liters. I usually run right on full anyway so if the bottle was under charge I think I would still be well in dip stick ok bit.

Same with yellowbutts comment about the air pocket in the filter Yes yes your right it would, Cavitation of an oil pump is bearing destroying but as it is just momentary I don't think its a prob.

This size of tank that I am using is exactly the size that pre lube recommended to me --size F it is 4 Quarts (American measure) it will only fill half of that so thats 1/2 a gallon. As you say.

However I am under the impression that the resistance of the 3/8 fittings, pipe, and valve as well will ensure that the pressure in the engine will need at least 15 PSI to push oil into the tank.

Which is more than I have at present --which is zero for 12 seconds.

Hoping for an E mail off Yanmar tomorrow from an enthusiastic guy until he is told to drop it by his superiors. Seems to be what normally happens.

They all start of sympathetic and helpful.

Hoping Captim can give me his drive plate expert contact.

[murdomack]

This size of tank that I am using is exactly the size that pre lube recommended to me --size F it is 4 Quarts (American measure) it will only fill half of that so thats 1/2 a gallon.

It all depends on your oil pressure, at Zero you have an accumulator with 1 US Gal of air in it at 1 atmosphere. Pressure compresses the air, roughly 1 bar halves the volume of air, 2 bar makes it 1/3 and if your engine is at 50 psi then the air will be compressed to almost 1/10th of a US Gal.

This is all pretty rough calcs but not far off, so you could be moving over 3-1/2 quarts back and forth. That's why I think you should be re-filling your tank as soon as the pressure buils up.

[Frosty]

I think your right, Im having second thoughts on this, only1/10 of a gallon left? moving 3 1/2 quarts?

Im thinking I might go back to the pump idea, pump filter , check valve (OWV) and modify the sump plug which is a banjo bolt holding the dip stick tube. I could fit a double banjo with an extended banjo bolt or drill and tap the original banjo bolt.

It seemed the long way , but now seems the shortest.

Cylinders are too big are'nt they?

[masalai]

In that case why not "dry sump" the engines and then you can have a large reservoir elsewhere and keep it separately filtered.... then, as soon as the "ignition switch" is turned on oil can start flowing, by electric pump? to where it is needed before the engine even cranks over.... the reservoir is fed by the engine pump, keeping the sump empty..., The electric engine lube supply pump could also feed "polishing filters" and just recirculate the oil back to the reservoir... - - - You just need to ensure "crank splash" does not play a significant part in lubrication?...

A mechanically simple solution... Just a thought from a non-mechanic, in a burst of lateral thinking... Could also add significant value to the engineering of your boat...

[Frosty]

That would mean removing the sump and engine . re piping the engine pump to the tank supply, fitting scavenging pump to the sump before I started with the electric one which normally have a duration of 30 minutes on,- and 30 off.

I shall retire to the chair on the aft deck in the early morning sun. May even go for a walk in my new running shoes that I modified with silicone yesterday, I shall go and kick some monkeys, bit cold this morning wont be any snakes about till noon, I need to think about this.

All this because of what ???? Yanmar. Then when I get this sorted I have the rattle that sounds like I left my tool box on the engine.

No emails this morning. from Yanmar!!!

[Yellowjacket]

I think your right, Im having second thoughts on this, only1/10 of a gallon left? moving 3 1/2 quarts?

Cylinders are too big are'nt they?

Well, maybe yes and maybe no...

Depends on how much oil you put in them. You can control the amount of oil in the cylinders by using a one way valve with a known cracking pressure. As noted earlier, the amount of oil in the cylinder is going to be based on the pressure, so if for instance you were to use a 30 psi cracking pressure valve, and the maximum oil pressure was 45 psi the cylinder would see 15 psi and the cylinder would only have 2 quarts in it. Murdo is right, a bit of junk could lodge in the valve so you should screen the valve inlet, a fine mesh screen should do it.

Frosty, so now are you starting to figure out that there is a diffrence between a couple of "simple buckets" and an engineered system like the Acusump?

As you look into it more into it and learn, now you can see why the Acusump works. Its design addresses all the issues that you are trying to solve. You can control the amount of preload pressure that controls when oil starts to flow into the Acusump and the maximum amount of oil that goes into it by adjusting the pressure on the other side of the piston. With the Acusump all you have to do is set the pressure on the back side of the piston and open the valve when you want to start the engine and maybe shut it earler when you have big pressure in the engine. You don't need more than one valve, no orifice, and it is a pretty simple system and it will purge the filter, and it has a gage on it, so you can make sure it's charged.

What more can you ask for? Sure it cost a little bit, but not all that much....

The pump system cost a bit more, but neither one is that expensive...

Stop being so darn cheap and go buy what works....

[Frosty]

The pump will work, does not need overfilling the engine, will run long enough to do the job , will not exhaust itself of oil supply, will absolutely work and prime to 1 bar 100% sure. Will be able to change engine oil, Will be able to prime new filters.

Can buy locally Piusi Italian vane pumps , can buy banjo fittings and hydraulic lines. can order one way valve, can order filter holder.

I am on a desert Island , post rarely turns up , Ive given up expecting parcels, Im not paying fedex 300 +us dollars, most American companies don't post outside USA and don't take mastercard over the phone. Some do,- rare.

And most importantly wheres the fun in that. I don't pay people to wash my boat either , when that day comes Ill'e sell it.

I'de rather spend 330 dollars for a flight and 3 nights hotel in Singapore where I know where to buy anything.

Yes Im a bit grumpy today!!

[masalai]

Go and have a "bitch" on http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/grumpy-old-bathplug-raves-21157-79.html it needs some more interest and I am just too "shit off" to refrain from swearing...

[Jimbo1490]

Richard (apex1) has demonstrated his (usual) engineer/designer's understanding of the reciprocating engine. Kudos!

One tiny corner was not covered in his long post, and I will try to cover it briefly. It often arises in casual discussions of engines that "6 cylinder engines vibrate too much" or some such. The person so stating usually applies this pronouncement to all 6 cylinder engines. As Richard so ably explained (and provided a nice animated Gif, no less) the inline 6 cylinder engine is perfectly balanced for both primary and secondary moments.

Likewise for any V6 which posseses a bank angle which is a multiple of 60, ie 60, 120, or 180 degrees (a Porsche engineer once told me to think of the boxer engine as a 180* vee). These 6 cylinder engines are also in perfect balance.

So where did this myth come from? I think it is from the (uniquiely?) American practice of 'chopping' two cylinders off of a (90*) V8 engine to create a V6, a practice that only a corporate bean-counter could love.

Such engines are never in balance and furthermore have some rather problematic timing/firing order issues. A couple of different novel (odball) schemes have been adopted to ameliorate these issues, centered around splitting and offsetting the crankpins on adjacent cylinders to reduce (but not eliminate) the firing order/balance problems created by the fact that two cylinders must approach TDC on one bank with only one approcahing TDC on the other on each revolution. At least three split schemes were devised, two by Buick and one by Chevrolet, They are all different, with different degrees/directions of split with different firing orders and secondary balance characteristics. But they are all rather 'shaky' engines and require very soft mounts. The crankshafts tend to be weak because of the the split pins, also. The Chevy especially had a problem here.

I believe that this is the source of the persistent myth about 6 cylinder engine balance, as these engines are very common here in the US.


Suffice it to say that the 90* V6 is an engineering abomination, one that (I doubt) we will ever see made in Germany :D. The smaller Ford V6 was originally a German design and has 60* vee angle.

Jimbo

[Frosty]

Ok Ok ive just emailed accusump supplier OK???

Not 100% on this but I can at least ask about the shipping.

I agree its a better system,---but not necessarily better than the pump.

Fedex is probably more than the entire pump kit!! we will see.

[mark775]

"7 year old engines now 156 hours only." There has now been more time donated to this individual's "problem" than the engine will have remaining life. Marine age (age of an engine sitting and not necessarily being used - which brings up a moot question - why expensive diesels for this boat?) is a bigger killer than perceived inadaquate pre-lube in this application.
I have friends with this same engine that put this many hours on in the first two weeks of the engines' life and now have almost 20,000 hrs.. 20,000 hours here is the amount of time spent bleating about the short straw (and those poor Yanmars will likely not see 2,000). I related early in this thread what the problem with this engine/transmission combination was and who to contact for answers (Tony Athens, Oxnard, CA).

[masalai]

Getting a little lazy old man? :D:D:D:D:D - - so am I....

Mark, - - The USA's overblown $$$ (killer exchange rates that can vary by 15% overnight), very expensive freight forwarding (FedEX $200 for not much more than a brown 12 x 9 inch manila envelope) and time-zones make trading with USA almost a "do-not-consider" event.... Then there is no fat in the market to allow a small business to do a "favour" job... So get real and get off your indignant "high horse"...

[Frosty]

775 Do you have an Email?

[murdomack]

Frosty,

If as you said earlier your bottles are the same as the pre-lube system that you were oiffered,then it should work the same. If you have the bottles and valves why not set one up as an experiment. Start up as you do now and bleed pressure into the bottle, shut down and take oil level readings, topping up if required. Start up using the pre-lube, close the valve before the system has had a chance to re fill, then shut down and read your oil level again. This will show if too much oil is flowing into your engine.

It may be that a resistance builds up when you release the oil into the engine that keeps a fair bit of oil back in the bottle. That could be why the pre-lube kit manufacturer asks for a 4 quart bottle for your engine.

[murdomack]

Sorry about the double post, I realized on reading it that putting 1/2 Gal in the bottle without pressurising will not work:mad: I've deleted my earlier one.;)

[Frosty]

Might just do that Murdo Knock up a temp job and see if it works. i could pull out the bridge sender and fit a small 3/8 tap (think i got some) and pip it up to the tank ( thoroughly cleaned out first of course)

Thanks to you and yellowbutt for just bouncing ideas back and forth. It really makes a difference when your feeling your way in unknown territory.

Right better get off my butt then and get that tank cleaned. Its not too bad actually I lowered a white LED on a bit of wire inside, surface rust but not flaky.

Or shall I wait for Acusumps quote, 3 quart 160 dollar no valve, depends on shipping x2.

No word from Yanmar and its after 6 in Aus now ---sigh,--- usual shit.

Fck it I could go for a shower,--- go to the bar and think a bit more.

[Frosty]

Here we go they want a wire transfer, what is a wire transfer? is it a telegraphic transfer.

[apex1]

yes it is Frosty

[Frosty]

Right well thats out then. I cant send money to America by wire!! the bank says I cant because of clause 44 I can only send money to a nominated account in my own name. Great security but a bit restrictive. They wont take a credit card. Dont Americans whinge on about they cant export because China uses child labour?

Yanmar says all 6LP filters drain out --its normal for 5 to 6 second prime times. So now you know!!!!
The rattle is ZF gearboxes which do it all the time (we knew this didnt we)

One guy says there is a new plate another does'nt know.

Not heard from 775 with a contact for his Yanmar expert, serious I would like his email. or the email of any of his friends who have these engines apparantly,-- and can put as many hours as I have in a week. I would like to talk to any one with a 6lp.

Gone off the cylinder idea I don't like the thought of putting unfiltered oil into the galleries.

11.30pm watching telly I had a brain storm, ran out and went to the engine room. "YES" the oil filter housing has a perfect place to drill a 10mm hole straight into the feed gallery of the filter housing, and is accessable with a drill without removing.

Allready drilled and taped to 1/8NPT,--- there i shall fit what ever I decide to fit, probably a pump now and this will pump oil into to the place where it should be,--in to the filter.

This will keep original filter and keep its 2 stage filter system that the 6lp has.

All I need now is a longer banjo bolt for a double banjo on the dipstick tube on the sump and a small 12V pump, this will pump oil into the intake of the oil filter just as the engines pump does.

Trying to think of some automotive 12V hydraulic pump that will deliver 50psi or there abouts. The Piusi pump that I can get is a fuel transfer and will only reach 1 bar however that could be because of the in built by pass valve ( I dont know) Its a vane pump and I need to think how I can minimize flow and decrease volume in exchange for some more pressure.

I love making stuff.



Dri

[masalai]

Shhhhhhh everybody, genius at work... Will we see what is to be seen when it is ready???? Frosty, that means "before and after" pictures...

[Yellowjacket]

Frosty....

Make sure you plumb some kind of one way valve into your pumping system...

Othewise if you get enough pressure in the gallery overcome the friction in the pump it will start running backwards and act like a turbine. That would allow oil to flow back to the sump thru your pump.....

[powerabout]

Frosty
The BMW diesel stern drives and inboards rattled badly when shutting down, the petrols a little less.
So its normal in the Hurth boxes but sounds bad I'll agree

[Frosty]

Oh yeah, Thanks for that, nice to now some one else has the problem --in some strange kinda way. The petrols being less makes sense and confirms the diagnosis.

[WestVanHan]

*****Suffice it to say that the 90* V6 is an engineering abomination, one that (I doubt) we will ever see made in Germany .
Jimbo********

Sorry to rain on your parade Jimbo:

The Mercedes of 1997 M112 family was/is a 90 deg. V6 using a balance shaft and offset crank pins.
But they overlapped the pins so maybe half of the pin area overlaps.
Evolved into the 3 litre still in production.

And Audi's 2.8 V6 of the early '90s was a 90 degree,as is the 2.7 turbo,2.8,and the 3.0 and 3.2 of today.

Maserati was a 90,and the old F1 turbos had odd degrees for packaging.

Ford SHO/Yamaha had that 60 deg. V8 and Volvo/Yamaha has the 4.4 60 deg. V8.

[powerabout]

The only use for a V6 is a 2 stroke outboard motor either 60 or 90, odd fire or even any other use was designed by an accountant.
(Oops except for 6-53 & 92 Detroits)

[powerabout]

Does Yanmar actually make any engines or are they all somebody else's

[apex1]

Richard (apex1) has demonstrated his (usual) engineer/designer's understanding of the reciprocating engine. Kudos!

Likewise for any V6 which posseses a bank angle which is a multiple of 60, ie 60, 120, or 180 degrees (a Porsche engineer once told me to think of the boxer engine as a 180* vee). These 6 cylinder engines are also in perfect balance.
Jimbo

Sorry, completely wrong! The Porsche engineer should have been sacked when going home to Stutgart!

A 180° engine is a Vee engine with 180° cyl bank, but working on the same crank with two cyl.s
A Boxer is a 180° cyl. bank engine working each on his own crank. For that reason the Boxer is balanced so nice.

And we all made the crappy 6vee´s. just to get them in to a cramped space. (except BMW)
Regards
RIchard

[masalai]

Frosty, - How is it going? - The engineering problems sorted, or still a work in progress?

[mark775]

For you, Mas, engineering is your Lay-Z-Boy chair. Get back in your "financialsense" hole. Seriously, you guys talk every waking moment in other threads. Why would you even post, "Frosty - How is it going?"?
34351

[powerabout]

Apex1

How come flat 4 and 6 light planes engine vibrate so badly?

[FAST FRED]

"light plane"

Is the key to your question, With as little weight and mass that most fleas have the engine becomes a huge percentage of the mass.

Bolt that flea motor in a car as Tucker did , and the extra mass smooths everything out.

FF

[Pacey16]

Interesting post, talking of harmonics, could I remove the harmonic balancer from my Yanmar 4Jh3e (around 2002 vintage) and fit a second pulley in its place to run a second alternator, I think the previous model did not have a balancer.
I should probably leave it in place but fitting another pulley outside it looks like a major engineering job. maybe some company does a dual pulley I can mount behind the balancer in place of the original pulley.

Thanks.

[powerabout]

Do the major engineering, even adding the pully can make a change unless engineered by the factory.
I have rebuilt a few ( high Speed) engines that had extra kit on the front and was usually surprised how worn the front main bearing was compared to the rest.
These were not factory additions.
You would need to know the maths on the engine torsional vibration to know whether you will have no probs or maybe create them.
Maybe swap out for 2 aluminium pulleys the same weight as the original..
just an idea. thats my 2 cents

[Bigfoot1]

Adding an extra pulley, assuming that it is concentrically balance and it will be within tight tolerances, will not change, SIGNIFICANTLY, the harmonics of the engine. Keep the harmonic balancer in place as this will create a change due to its higher mass and inherent imbalance that is machined into it to help the engine vibrations

[Toddlesocks]

I had a 4k yanmar diesel generator. It took hours to start and then the pull start cord came off in my hand. I'd only ever managed to start it twice

[WestVanHan]

Apex has that one correct.....I missed that Porsche v180 comment.

Apex,I have an engine..tell me what this is-you should know:

6 cylinders and 12 pistons

[TollyWally]

Frosty,
I ran across this in my internet travels. It may be wholly impractical and have no relationship to what you are trying to accomplish but what the hell it doesn't cost any to look.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0906_budget_pressure_luber_build/index.html

[Ken Johansson]

This could be a little dumb, but if one of your problems is that the oil drains out of the filter because it is sitting upside-down, wouldn't the easiest way to solve this problem be to make an adapter so your filter is sitting the other way around?
I tried to look at Yanmar websites, but couldn't find a good picture of where the oil filter is situated, but if it's not to tight in your engine-room it should be possible.
Regarding your vibration, I found that Yanmar claims the 6LP has "Low noise & vibration". They doesn't say Low noise & LOW vibration. ;-)

Best Regards,

Ken

[whoosh]

we need be a bit careful here, yanmar and the yanmar commercial as in ships, may be 2 diff entities, for instance there are lo speed yanmars that run 20 years in tuna longliners, non stop 500rpm engines
they are simpply great old plodders

[pistnbroke]

If frostys problem is the upside down oil filter I dont understand why he does not fit a remote filter kit .checked on google and no problem getting one after all the man is not stupid ...or is it that he wants the makers to fix it ??


Stay cool but not frosty ....ha ha

[Frosty]

---thanks for that Wally I am making a luber but a bit more professional that that.

Yes folks a remote filter kit would lessen the oil prime time but not eliminate it. Its always my thing that if Im going to do a job then do it properly and make it work well.

The oil filter spigot is over 60mm long, it has a special 2 stage filter that separates internally and returns super clean oil to the sump whilst normally clean oil goes into the gallery. The filter itself is expensive and heavy , it has an o ring inside that fits on the spigot to separate the two oils.

As previously mentioned I have already drilled a 1/4 BSP into the intake gallery of the filter meaning the filter will clean the pre lube pump oil as per the Yanmar specifications. The pump I can buy and will pump to 1 bar. The feed will be from a double banjo on the dip stick on the sump.

A none return valve will be fitted in the system.

To make a remote kit would not be easy,-- to buy is impossible as it is 24x1.5,--you wont get one and not to fit this spigot.

The remote kit would lessen the time but the pre lube will do that and pre lube and post lube if I should so want , It will also prime new filters and remove old oil. It would enhance value to the boat for having a proper lube system.

I will probably fit a small 1/4 cock in the line so that if I should go out for some serious distance driving I could isolate the whole system.

I am looking forward to starting the engines without ever hearing the alarms

[Frosty]

Hey,-- a question for yer.

A small deisel fuel transfer pump, vane type, 12 volt is what I have chosen to pump 2 liters of clean oil into the filter and prime to 1 bar which the pump manufacturers say it is capable of when pumping fuel.

The supplier says no way can I use this pump to pump lube oil!!!!!

I said --but its only going to run for 15 seconds and only prime a filter to 1 bar.

They said,-- well another customer tried it on lube oil and damaged the vanes ,--we will not guarantee the pump for this use.

I said yeah but if you put dirty water with grit in it is will damage the vanes but this is clean SAE 30 lube oil and will be for a 15 second run only.

He said yeah ok I will sell you the pump but it is not the right pump and I will not give guarantee.


Question. I think he is a dick head and doe'snt know what he is doing but hey thats me. Dont you?

I can not get another pump in 12 --I have tried. Piusi by pass 2000, made in Italy and a very well respected pump. They will not reply to my question only giving me the Malaysian contact.

What say you respected engineers out there?

[Fanie]

Hi Frosty,

Vein pumps are not the right thing to pump oil with. The veins can slide in and out by centrifugal force, most of them specifically indates 'do NOT lubricate'. You won't be able to pump oil with it properly. I will also sell you the pump without the guarantee :D

Look for a gear oil pump instead. While they have lower volume pump capabilities they can give the pressure easily and they have positive displacement capability, meaning if the pump turns oil comes out and at pressure if required, you don't have to wonder about it. You may even pick one up at the car spares shop.

[ancient kayaker]

Frosy: I imagine it's not a question of material compatibility - if it is OK for diesel it is hard to imagine what damage oil would do. Perhaps the greater back pressure of the oil is a problem, due to its greater viscosity. Is it possible to just reduce the motor power or revs to deal with that? Also, if you can speak to the customer who already tried it ...

I assume you have tried to buy the right pump for the job.

[TollyWally]

LOL, I'm not an engineer, more of a field man myself. But my first thoughts are that the problem with lube oil vs. diesel fuel would be viscosity. Given the nature of diesel fuel in cold weather I would think any lift pump capable of moving diesel when it's chilly out can handle 30 wieght for short runs especially in warmer weather.

My opinion,, worth .02!

[Fanie]

Question. I think he is a dick head and doe'snt know what he is doing but hey thats me. Dont you?
The guy is a dick head for the right reasons :D

What say you respected engineers out there?
We have respected engineers on this web site :confused: :p

[WestVanHan]

I grew up on a large farm/ranch,where things are bodged together and used for wildly different things.

How about a low pressure 12 volt hydraulic pump?
Install a check valve etc etc.

Check the lowrider forums.


Or an oil transfer pump?

Stuff is out there......

[Frosty]

what 12V hydraulic pump do you suggest? Ive racked my brains thinking of an outomotive application.


Yes the vanes throw out with centrifugal force thats how it works.

I understand it will be loaded and will not possibly displace the same amount as it would pumping diesel but all it has to do is pump 2 liters of SAE 30 in 31 degrees?-- Thats not thick oil.

Sorry but if you don't think it will pump 2 liters of SAE 30 in 15 seconds, yet pump 40 of deisel in 0ne minute,--- please explain.

I have seen nothing on Ebay even thought it could not be posted to me here. If I knew of a use of one I could find the shop or supplier to that use.

[WestVanHan]

FYI I'm nowhere near an expert..but have built a few woodsplitters and repaired some equipment 'back on the farm"

There are reducers and a check valves available.
Many small hyd. pumps used for wheelchair lifts,custom car stuff,RV levellers etc and many 12v oil movers around that should get you 1 bar.

But I think this is what you need..for cooling trannnys on racing cars..can handle heat.

Shouldn't be more than $200 USD..ask them if they have a reducer...if this helps u owe me a beer.

Never really read this thread...sorry but could have helped you a while back :eek:

http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=222&m=d

[ancient kayaker]

12V oil pumps are sold for auto use, for changing sump oil. Not sure if you can get them in Thailand, but you shoould be able to order one over the Internet. Canadian Tire have one http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/Marine/BoatingAccessories/PRD~0799008P/Oil%2BChanger%2B12V.jsp cdn$40, no doubt cheaper ones from US sources

[Frosty]

That Tilton pump is just what I need.

Oil changers? ive considered that but I dont think they offer much in pressure but I dont know for sure,--they don't print specifications like pressure delivery on a simple oil changer. Cant be much for 39 dollars.

Can get brass one way valves 1/2 inch here for water,--plumbing,----- Iether a flapper type or a sprung valve, cant make my mind up which would be better. Lovely machined and screw apart,--2 dollars!!!!

Thinking I might re attach the bridge guages to the intended oil galley, meaning bridge guages will read pre oil filter pressure, would be interesting!!

[WestVanHan]

Doubt oil changer pump would give more than a few psi.

Myself,I'd put in a spring check valve even if it's rated to handle heat and pressure.

And if you want to get all trick, put in a pressure sensor that trips at a set point.Then rig in a relay so the starter won't turn over until pre lube hits your point. And theres other things u can do.

Of course you could easily bypass all this in case of an emergency start if the ex wife/girlfriend and/or police show up.


So does this mean I have to come to Thailand to collect my beer??

[Fanie]

Most of the auto sump pumps have a shaft you drive them on. Chevy makes such a thing... Phone a spares shop and ask. I'm sure Thailand must have spares shops too ?

Ive racked my brains thinking of an outomotive application
What brains ????

[masalai]

It is not for a motor-bike, that is all.... (Probably explains why the boat hardly ever moves:D:D:D:D)

[powerabout]

The pump is going to need a but of grunt and will need to be a gear pump.
If you have ever put a hand drilll on the shaft of a engine oil pump and tried to pump oil you will see.
I think the cold oil will be the problem being so viscious.
I think Johnson pumps makes a fibre grear gear pump for fuel transfer?

A fuel pump from a Detroit would be about the right pump....
Just need the motor and drive

Some of the larger freshwater pumps kits are also gear pumps.


Perhaps google fuel polishing as many are gear pumps
http://www.depcopump.com/catalog110/041.pdf

I was going to suggest a trim pump from outboard or sterndrive ( once you adjust the pressure out) but not sure how they will work without a flooded inlet as they operate in their own reservoir.
Late Merc high vol low pressure would have about the right flow and an all in one package.
They were designed to use 10w engine oil.

Best of luck.

[scotch&water]

Hi Frosty My thinking is that the lift pump on out drive lift cyl. would work, with a check valve and pressure sender for an electric guage would be a good ad on, for the sump a section of pipe with a plate top and botom some fab. work to connect the pump, it could get oil feed fom the oil cooler? Fritz.

[Frosty]

I have investigated the trim and tilt pump off an old outboard. A new one is cough --splutter--expensive,--- and I need 2.

I could fly to America and buy a Tilton cheaper.

I am proud of my engine installations in my white engine rooms , I don't want a cocked up pump and motor bolted to them. I want a nice neat installation. These Yanmars are complicated enough with alarms and bells,I really don't want to make it more so.

Spares shops are every 200yds --literally-- but if Toyota Isuzu or Mitsubishi dont use them , then they wont have them.

I will change tactics and investigate the 4 wheel drive race shops.

[pistnbroke]

I beleive in KISS so as the main problem is that he oil filter is UP rther then DOWN the the solution is the turn the filter ...adaptor or remote ...??? Of course if we had photo of these operating theatre style engine rooms we might be able to help a bit more ...ha ha if you need anything from au or uk I can get it posted to you .......



Stay cool but not too Frosty !!!

[Frosty]

You asked the same question or made the same remark some time back. I wrote a lengthy reply as to why this is not possible.

[WestVanHan]

Frosty also check out Mocal oil pumps like this,same price as Tilton:

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1546/Mocal_Differential_Cooler_Pump

[Frosty]

Again ---perfect --just what I want.

Postage will be 200 dollar ,--if they can or will take a mastercard.

And no tracking number or insurance. It just wont get here.

Been here so many times

[masalai]

Frosty, F... ameri.... have you tried to get it from ozzi? we have registered and insured small package delivery with signature required through Australia Post or even some couriers? - find the place and product (preferably Brisbane)... I will look around... and see what I can do...

I will need size LxWxH and if it meeds "bubblewrap protection" and weight and value for insurance - aren't those septic businesses useless....?

[mark775]

Frosty, I have the same problem getting stuff past customs into Mexico. One method is to get someone you trust to bring it. Even a random unknown traveler would be more reliable than customs with nobody watching. Bags are often light going over so that they can be filled for the trip back... Maybe even someone on this forum is traveling there soon.

[mark775]

Mas, Fine. Why do always have to be a dick?

[masalai]

For F's sake the man has explained the difficulties with trying to do business with USA several times... Over-priced will not accept mastercard, and do not deliver - so who is the dick? - - I usually call a spade a spade, and an idiot gets the response deserved, for an inane and stupid question... - - - - I stayed out of the play because it is not my field, and no forthcoming, helpful, or, useful suggestions to supply? - - - Shit I am no expert but given the stuff from Frosty, I reckon any dumbarse could deliver so all the dumbarses over there could not - so it seems? - - At least I will have a go...

[WestVanHan]

OK Frosty this is it....

I have had import businesses and still import "samples" for fun.
Co.s usually have minimum orders,tell them u want to buy a few for testing, when you just want them 4 spares.


Made in Thailand,not heat rated (need check valves) and you can run the pressure down to 1 bar.

http://www.alibaba.com/product/th101724564-105695435-100599484/Micro_Gear_Oil_Pump_DC_Fuel_Transfer_Pump_TG_BS5.html



TOPSFLO PUMP TECHNOLOGY CO LTD
Street Address: Nong Phalai Banglamung
City: Chonburi
Province/State: Thailand
Country/Region: Thailand
Zip: 20150
Telephone: 66-3-62788985
Fax: 66-3-62736895

[masalai]

Good on the Canadians, Thanks Sir... and later maybe? as... " You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to WestVanHan again. " :D:D:D

[Frosty]

Holy Moly thats perfect.
I will get the missus to phone in the morning and ill'e nip down to the factory. I hope they sell out sales direct,--I know some don't.

She just added that it is behind the Esso station about 3 Km down the road, we think!!!. Any way Banglamung is not far away.

Fking well done Van. Points for your help have been awarded.

[WestVanHan]

3 km? Dammit I was trying to find one closer to you.

If they don't sell sales direct,either pretend you're an exporter (feign interest in their other stuff) and want to export their entire line world-wide....or just offer the guy cash.

I'll be by at some point in time for my beer.

That pump is not heat proof,so you'd have hot oil all over the engine room and troubles if a check valve leaked.

So I'd put in 2...a couple feet apart,in case one fails you still have the other.
And on occasion check the pipe in between for heat.

Do ya think the heat would migrate much from the infeed to the pump if the line had oil in it?
But it's self priming....so maybe raise the pump a bit above the sump to stop heat transfer??

Let us know how muchy.

[Frosty]

I dont understand your heat issues. It will pump cold oil for a few seconds to prime the filter . It will then be separated from the engine by a one way valve. I doubt the pump will be used again that day ( why would it).

So really the pump will suffer no more heat than the ambient engine room can muster.

Your beer is in the post, but ive drank some to discount from the 3 Km I have to walk.

She is going to phone in a minute when she gets her act together. Im walking around behind her with the number and the telephone in my hand.

Its 9 20 and she is still in ker nighty and I in my underpants, not a pretty picture I know but then I know you like detail.

[WestVanHan]

A check valve is a one way valve,same thing.

If that lone check valve ever failed/leaked on your non-heat rated pump,it'd be a short while before you had serious problems....

[masalai]

Does that mean that "frosty's pump" won't work or the motor thingy?:P:D

[Frosty]

Phone number does not work , Directory enquiries have never heard of them.

Nong Phalai is where the Railway station is!!! I dont remember there bieng an industrial estate there ,--but thats Thailand.

Ille jump on the bike and take a look. --Just driven 50 m round Nong Phalai, big place, nothing--no one has heard of them and the phone number does not represent any similarity to a Thai number.

So what shall I do fit 2 check valves? If the check valve was to fail or leak then a small amount of oil would flow back to the pump , but the pump is gear so it wont allow much flow back. There fore the oil will be considerably cooled by then.

And the oil gallery that the intended pump will pump into is just after the oil cooler, there fore oil will have just been cooled at this point.

[PESCATORE]

Hello to all! I am new to the site and have been following this post about the yanmar oil filter for a little while now. I own a Shamrock boat with a Yanmar 6LP and have converted to a remote oil filter. I also eliminated the need for buying proprietary Yanmar oil filters by installing a common 1"-16 threaded filter head. This thread is a direct match for the filter on the dodge 5.9L or 6.7L diesels and is also longer to give extra capacity.

See attached pictures.

[Frosty]

Hello Pescatore and welcome to the forum. You realize you are now going to be bombarded with questions dont you?

Did you have priming trouble, in other words why did you fit the remote?

Did you make the remote? because I have not been able to see one for sale, and as you can see the length of the adaptor is to accomodate the long oil filter spigot for the special Yanmar dual stage filter.

I think your engine has an out drive on it yes?

[WestVanHan]

Well frosty not more I can do.

Sign up on alibaba,then contact them via the "contact" button.
Maybe the phone # is wrong etc etc.

Google something like -thailand 12v oil pump and scroll thru.

[Frosty]

I have contacted Alibama and told them they are crap. There silly machine wont let me e mail the supplier without joining. I am joined but it wont accept my password, if I try to contact as a new customer and sign up it wont let me because it says I am already a customer.--- Another silly American company.

I have no alternative but to go in the car next time and literally search the streets for this place.

[PESCATORE]

Hi Frosty...thanks...I have answers to all questions ;) The reason I installed the remote filter is:
1) the high price and inconvenience for obtaining a Yanmar (or Toyota) brand filter.
2) Every time I removed the stock filter for an oil change it was empty...which means it was not doing its job correctly and draining potentially dirty oil back into the engine.
3) Priming time was about 8 seconds w/stock filter and 4 seconds with remote setup.

There is still some priming time with the remote setup because the hoses are curved upwards and allow the oil in the hose to drain back. I was planning to put 90deg ellbows on the adapter and mount the filter lower, but there was limited mounting space.

All Shamrock boats have straight shaft inboards. Everything else in my opinion is less reliable for going offshore with.

This is a search on the wix website using the cross reference for the compatable Toyota filter. It directly crosses with a wix p/n and states (Yanmar/Toyota) Click on 57254 and it brings up the specs. Full flow/bypass means its a dual element filter.

http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlook...tNo=9091530002

The filter I am currently using exceeds the flow rate and micron rating of the yanmar anyway.

Machined aluminum adapter/filter head I can do a kit for $309 + shipping using various filter head thread sizes. Hoses are 3/4" Parker series 436

I hope I answered all your questions. Sorry for the delay but there is a big time difference between us and I will be gone fishing all weekend. Take care

[powerabout]

Frosty
I have had good success shipping US stuff to Singapore and you have about a 80-20 chance ( in your favour ) of not paying sales tax (7%)which you could avoid as yours should be "ships spares in transit"
I wonder if you can ship to the central post office?
just a thought..

[WestVanHan]

F:

I'll use my account & let u know if and when they reply.

5 minutes later.....

I googled the model number and found the actual manufacturer in China.
They're ISO 9001
Probably Thais were trying to be an agent or something...

http://www.topstec.com/Aspde__EnProductShow.asp?ID=107

[Frosty]

Thanks again Westy I have e mailed Topsco in China to see if they have a Thai agent.

Pescatore, so your a machinist and can make them? 309 Dollar x 2 plus pipes shipping etc and the possibility of them never arriving due to post theft that is rife here. If I use DHL I will need more than a thousand dollars.

And you still have 4 seconds dry running. Im not criticizing your job --its a nice job, but a pump as you can see will be better and less expensive.

And Im already committed, hole drilled into oil cooler gallery.

I asked if it was an out drive as you have 2 pipes coming from your oil filter housing, Ive seen these before, I thought they went to the leg , what are they?

[PESCATORE]

Let me know if there is a Yanmar that failed due to the short delay of oil. I doubt it! I did this more for my piece of mind and so I dont have to buy Yanmar filters anymore. I'm sorry to hear your country is having mail theft.

The 2 hoses going to the filter housing are:

1) SUPPLY
2) RETURN

Good luck on making holes in your engine.

[Frosty]

Let me know if there is a Yanmar that failed due to the short delay of oil. I doubt it!
The 2 hoses going to the filter housing are:

1) SUPPLY
2) RETURN

Good luck on making holes in your engine.

Do you know of any engines that like to run without oil? It is a well known fact and everybody knows ( well almost everybody) that dry starts are the killer of any engine,--all damage is done then.

I think your conversion is great but to improve only by 50% is disappointing when with little more effort 100%---and more can be achieved and increase value on the boat by having pre lubes rather them meddling with oil filtration system.

I would have bet that they were supply and return!!!! but to where is more confusing!!! Mine dont have these pipes.

Intercepting these pipes would be a good way to get a right way up filter.

"holes" drilled and tapped ready for the pre lube system or if not by any chance, a take off for pre filtration oil pressure guages.

Pump untraceable,-- iether in Thailand or China. Alibama was contacted for help and they thanked me for reporting fraudulent use of thier web site?????

I did'nt report fraudulent use I asked for a contact. Is it always so hard dealing like this in America.

[Frosty]

For those that need more Info --a must read.

http://www.pre-luber.com/expertreviews.htm

[Fanie]

Geeezz Frosty, for all this troubles and posts it may have been an easier and in the end a more sensable solution to just some oars :D

From experience I can tell you it is important to pre-lube. Probably where half of us come from. I guess the other half could have been...er... less prelubricted results ? You can see some have more wear and tear than others eh :D

[masalai]

Not bad drivel though, 183 plus posts over 13 pages, to fix a problem that should never have happened - - so carelessness gets what it deserves, some rebuke? :D:D:D:D and something to while away the days;)

[Frosty]

Well I am very interested and relieved that some one else should have the same prob. It should'nt be but I felt like I was the only man in the world with a shit Yanmar. I think they have turned to BMW in 2008 and finished with the Toyotas.

Its not Yanmars it everybody these days.

Perhaps I could recomend a new worded warranty.

Warranty is for the period of credit only , if however the full amount has been paid for, warranty shall be null and void. If the engine has been run or used in any way or any attempt to start the engine shall nullify the said warranty. Etc Etc

[Bigfoot1]

When you pump oil from say a barrel open to atmosphere, and pump it into another barrel open to atmosphere which have about the same liquid level as each other (ie there is not a significant change in height) the pump only has to produce enough pressure to overcome the internal fluid resistance of moving the oil down the line. Ie the pump may be able to produce 1000 psi, but may only produce a few pounds pressure.
A vane pump in this case is fine for the above application, ie any volume but low pressure.
But as the pressure requirement build, the vane pump loses application, the vanes, which are usually held out against the pump housing by springs, not centrifigul force, can be distorted. This is not a good pump to use in high pressure applications.
As another contributor mentioned, a displacement pump is better, and for higher pressure requirements, this is fine.
There are many marine 12 volt pumps that can handle diesel fuel for this application and provide say 30 PSI, which is all you really need for circulation of oil through the engine oil galleries, But and this is the most important issue.
You must install a pressure relief valve somewhere down stream of the outlet of the pump that can be set at 30 psi, plus or minus even 20 psi, and the reason is this.
A displacement pump, with enough horsepower driving it, can produce thousands of psi of pressure when the pump turns, It is a displacement pump and if you block the end of the outlet, and put 100 hp into the pump, you can generate pressures into the thousands, ( until either the motor stalls or the shaft breaks.
So if you look at a pump and it says that it will develop 30 working pounds and is a displacement pump, that would be a pump matched to a motor that will produce 30 psi at what ever the pump is rated for.
Ie a motor pump combination should spec something like this.
1 gallon per minute at 30 psi, ie the working pressure of the assembly.

Vane pumps, probably not, though if matched to 30 psi and maybe a gallon per minute may work. spec it.
A diaphragm pump, dont bother
A displacement pump, good choice.

And the next question would be is this.
What pressure and volume should I look for.

The pressure at 30 psi is more than adequate, dont forget that you need a pressure relief valve as you could damage your engine, seals and gaskets.

Upper range maybe 60 psi or whatever your guages say when the engine is running.

Volume,
I would go on line and check out some higher capacity engine oil pumps that replace the OEM product, many race engines have higher capacity pumps and they will have some specs that say X amount of gallons per minute, so you would know the upper limit,

If I had to guess without doing the research I would say a gallon per minute is lots of volume and 30 psi is more than adequate

And to be clear, you need a pressure relief valve at the outlet of the displacement pump which lets the surplus oil go back to the atmospheric reservoir, ie engine sump or what ever. OR YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS

[Frosty]

Your explanation above is not in dispute. Its getting the pump.

I have no reply from Tuttle USA or Topflow China and Varna USA and Tilton USA.

All of these make a pump ideal for the job. A Chinese supplier would accept a min order of 500 pieces

Does'nt America complain of not being able to export against the competitive China because of child labor or something. Just answering e mails might help.

We hav'nt even got to the bit where they say we dont accept Mastercard from a foreigner ,--they are sometimes fraudulent. ----Well they should know they invented it.

Surely they get clearance before shipping? I don't get it.

[WestVanHan]

Ive ordered hundreds and hundreds of samples form Asian co.s.,and its really fun due to my often forgetting what I've ordered.
It's Christmas,every week!

From diesel engines and tractors to minibikes/ATVs,food items,machinery,and every appliance,piece of furniture,and clothing item known with only 3 or 4 co.s unwillling to send a sample batch I dunno why they won't deal with you.

Had you googled like I suggested earlier?
Have you phoned the American co.s?

[Frosty]

It is the other way round Van. I am trying to get stuff from US.

I dont understand --you ship into Canada,--(which is in North America) furniture and motorcycles??? But it doesnt come with the morning post does it? you must be talking of container shipping? Why am I guessing? Please explain?

Shipping a 40 ft container and asking to put 2 100 dollar pumps in the post is a bit different.

No I hav'nt phoned. Am I wrong to think I should get a reply to my e mail request for just 2 pumps and no I have not told them that I want samples and lied that I am in the market to buy 1000 of the items.

I have spent 2 evenings googling though.

I am not accepting samples batches !! I am in need of a specific pump and at a cost that does not exceed flying down to Singapore and getting some.

Asia is a power house, hungry for trade, and will --if it has'nt already taken over the world in trade terms. Shame that pre luber pumps are'nt considered more important here.

A 12V DC gear pump is a rare bit of equipment-apparantly. Due to Americas fanatical infatuation with the motorcar,-- racing items and pre lubers seem more prevalent there.

[WestVanHan]

Ordering stuff they ship it via sea.
They crate and ship it ...arrives in Vancouver,gets sorted/unloaded and I go pick it up (and pay any duties) from my customs broker.

The American guys-phone 'em.

I googled for 5 minutes when this whole thing got started and found a few.

"I am not accepting samples batches !!"

Just WTH does that mean?

I made a specific recommendation for a very good reason.
You chose not to follow it,and you didn't get a reply-no surprise.

[Frosty]

Sounds like your getting hot round the collar. Dont know why . A sample batch is an undetermined lot of samples, ie items sent before hand to be inspected as being exactly as per the order.

I am googling now and have been this morning too I just may not be as good as you are.

Your suggesting I phone up and tell them I am in the market for 1000 pieces and I need 2 now for testing!! Im not prepared to be dishonest.

[pistnbroke]

When you get all this CRAP sorted out I bet it will do more than 4 knots more like 25 plus so you understand my problem ....

Be cool but not frosty .....

[powerabout]

Getting a sample from Asia....
that will be the parts they stole from someone else then you order the 1000 where the delivery driver substituted one component, the storeman another and the boss one more so you get delivered crap.
Remember the BA 777 that parked a bit short of the runway.....chinese fuel specially formulated to contain fully blended water
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=195299&page=3
even better
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=172967&page=1

[Bigfoot1]

There is a marine prelube kit available from www.marine-prelube.com for about 300 bucks, US
The importation should not be a problem, email them, send them a money order and have them mail one, or DHL or Purolator will handle overseas shipments easy and relatively cheaply, and often have within their organization the brokerage process if Thailand has import restrictions.
This kit does need a pump, but rather uses an accumulator,

[TollyWally]

Bigfoot,
The website makes that sound like a mighty fine system. To my eye it looks like a solution to Frosty's problem and a stocking stuffer for my boat at Christmas time. Now how do I figure out how to build my own?

[Frosty]

How to build your own accumulator pre lube system? Check back on this thread,--its been discussed . I used a fire extinguisher but never completed it as decided to go elec pump

[TollyWally]

Gosh Frosty,
That's right, you were trying that approach way back when. This thread is getting long isn't it. You must be beside yourself with frustration.

[masalai]

Has anybody a use for these empty CO2 cylinders (for a giant sized soda fountain?)

[Frosty]

Thats exactly what you need, looks like aluminum too, perfect size.

Dont think you would get them on a a plane though, certainly not if they were capped,--open possibly.

[masalai]

Frosty here is how to buy from manufacturers

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/batteries-new-battery-technologies-21869-32.html#post305616 - - Spiv - - Ancient Mariner - - Join Date: Jun 2007 - - Location: Perth Western Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertKu View Post
It is a pity that the Chinese battery manufacturer insist on a minimum order for 10.000 pieces for the 8 or 9 Amperehour type D battery.
Bert
Bert,
most Chinese have their 'Minimum Order Quantity' rather high, however they all will allow a "sample" order and a "Pilot" order.
If the sample order is small sometimes they will ship it to you, others you just pay for the shipping.
Once you are happy with the sample, you then make the 'pilot' order of say 2~3~500 pieces. This time you pay for the goods (at the MOQ price) and shipping.
If the one manufacturer you are dealing with doesn't offer this terms, tell him you will look for another.

I tend to believe that soldering is the best solution for trouble free operation.
What about making flat 'pizzas' of the required number, and stack them?
it would still be simple to replace a 'pizza' with a spare one and then find the faulty battery.
A powerful soldering iron would make it easy to replace ded cells.
__________________
Keep smiling
Stefano

[Frosty]

You mean you can pump oil with a pizza,--I didnt know that, thanks for that Mas ille give it a go.

[masalai]

Amazing the stuff that comes up on boatdesign.net:D:D:D

[WestVanHan]

Frosty here is how to buy from manufacturers

most Chinese have their 'Minimum Order Quantity' rather high, however they all will allow a "sample" order and a "Pilot" order.



Mas... nice of you to post but I said this 2 weeks (?) ago.

Frosty doesn't want to do this.:confused:

So it's totally pointless for I/anyone to make an attempt to help him anymore.

[masalai]

Frosty gets a little bureaucratic sometimes and needs things in duplicate (or is it that he is getting a bit senile/deaf/blind and stuff has to be repeated until there is an acknowledgement):D:?::P

[Frosty]

I drove to Siracha yesterday in an attempt to buy some pumps at those big shops on the left near the traffic lights. They did'nt have any but boy I started to shake once or twice.

One guy said come back at 1Pm and I will give you a price. I started to shake and get worried . Phew thank god they were the wrong type,they had a reservoir on the side for things like tail gate lifts.

I jumped in the car and drove home quickly --that was close.

I knew these shops were pretty well stocked but boy they are mind blowing. I guess its with the oil industry being close by.

Off back to the boat in 24/48/ what ever, shall then re-analize all the good advice from you guys. Cheap calls to any where in the world and much faster internet connection whilst on the boat.

But will prob slink off to Singapore for a few days, love shopping for engineering stuff there, dont you? yes you do--every one does.

There appears to be only about 3 /4 manufacturers of these special pumps for pre lube.

Actually I can buy a Puisi gear pump in Malaysia, I just don't like the price, how can it be 3 times the price of their vane pump, same motor!!!!

I don't like anal penetration.

[masalai]

Hi Frosty, still looking for nuts and bolts:?: - did you leave them in the hands of the girl at the bar:?::?:

I am reminded of the story of a "gay" looking for companionship in a strange town, and proud of his 3 testicles approached this muscular man in a gay bay and said "Hi darling, between us we have 5 balls" and the falsetto response of the 'castrati' rejoined, impressed, and with a big smile, "My sweetie, you must have a cluster":D:D:D:D

[Frosty]

Piusi vane pumps purchased, (yes im still doing it, no need to rush these things).

Sump plug/dip stick bolt removed drilled through the head and a 1/2 inch BSP female adaptor welded in the the head of the bolt. I can now screw a tap or fitting into the sump plug as a supply and the dip stick tube is unaffected.

Yanmar have comfirmed that these filters do drain back and explained that the oil pressure alarm /sender is right at the end of the line.
Thats true --it is,-- it sits in a remote alarm guage, sender housing fed by a steel braided flexible line. Hmmm good excuse.

New plates can apparently be bought to quieten the transmission rattle on shut down, I am waiting to see how much they are,--say 2000 dollar? each!!

Bonding a piece of wood the the hull to take the pump mounting today, but maybe not --another stinking hot day. Not a cloud in the sky.

I have to replace the anchor winch solenoid that I took of 3 days ago , the anchor winch was stuck too, new seals and re grease/ paint up and she's good as new.

I worked out that it was 4 years since I last hauled an anchor with it.

Picys of sump plug coming next.

[Frosty]

I can sence a lack of interest here, any way I will continue as Ive started so ille finish.

All done and photos below, works great, 10 seconds on glow and the pressure is up, alarms off and lights off. It will stay pressurized too for a good few seconds.

One little prob is that Glow does not activate gauges and alarms so I have to keep turning on the ignition to see if its primed. Looking at the wiring its no big deal to swop that out for a push button prime and Yanmar have obliged with a place for an extra sw.

The pumps labored terrible (as Piusi said they would) I took out 3 of the 5 vanes from the pump rotor and now shes fine. still priming in the same time dues to the motor turning faster. Ok well photos below hopefully.

[masalai]

Good to see you have finished.... Are you now satisfied?

Could clean up your engines a bit some rust showing on the tube on second image on lower right... tut tut... :D:D:D

[WestVanHan]

Well good for you Frosty,bet it's a weight off your head

[TollyWally]

The best part is the smug little bit of satisfaction you'll feel everytime you start your motors!

[Frosty]

Yes Tolly it was good for me, im just having a cigarette now( I dont smoke).

I just started them up after 1 year sitting, primed them with the pumps and fired them up. The pumps take about 20 seconds, great no screaming alarms and oil pressure immediate up to normal.

The one way valves from the plumbers made from brass with brass valves work fine , and why should they not.

These engines sound the business, I stood in the dock with them both howling they sound good ille tell yer.

Flushed with fresh and shut them down, moped up the engines rooms and came inside to tell you about it.

Im hauling in Thailand in Jan so it takes me about 4 hours to get to Thailand if I go straight through but sometimes I like to stop in the mangrove river kampung Kilim and get some fresh cockles off the beach, then it straight across to Thailand in the morning right past where that couple were pirated and he was murdered and thrown overboard.

They wont be able to catch me though, In flat water approaching the Cheli ban river I will be pushing 24Kts.

[masalai]

With a big enough rooster tail to drown anyone coming up astern:D:D:D

[Frosty]

No ---I don't have a rooster!! I want one --well 2.

It can get fairly impressive at 24 Kts say 6 foot high and 20 feet back, not big at all really.

I have about one ton of fuel on board at the moment and that is 3 years old. I don't mind burning that off and getting some fresh. I was running the fuel scrubber today too and the fuel is dark but clean.

[Frosty]

Hey this is great 5,000 hits and no one interrupts me except me buddy mass.

This means I can talk and talk like my own blog or twitter.

Err I don't know what blog or twitter is I just hear other people talk about it.

This is like hiding behind the wardrobe talking to yourself, but its great because I don't get the septics in here.

Don't think for one minute I am actually annoyed at the lack of attention no sireee, this is great, (stretch my feet out a bit, arms behind head) yeah this is great.

-------------------- I guess we got a dead one here.

Now get me straight,-- I don't want any one to start posting, the next person to post is a wanker---- there that should fix it.

"Jeff"----- we got a dead one here,------

[Fanie]

Now get me straight,-- I don't want any one to start posting, the next person to post is a wanker---- there that should fix it.
Sorry Frosty, I couldn't WAIT to get here :D

[Frosty]

Geeezus fannie now you've fcked me up.

Ok,--- the next person to post is a wanker.

[Fanie]

Keeping the subject alive I see eh :D

[masalai]

Wankers of the world, this is the "coming out" thread - - Shit it should be full of USAnians as I was assured that they were most inclined to such activity - "Orally" that is :D:D:D

Does that mean that Monica might be the "patron":?::?: and Bill C, the first "life-member"?

By the other personality traits, I doubt there will be many "manual wankers" from 'the land of the free', as tweezers are not easy to use by those more familiar with 2 speed V8's and left hand drive...

[Fanie]

Is this who you're talking about ??

[masalai]

I think paranoia is fun, as it creates a very effective exclusive zone:D:D

- Should Gays and other homosexuals be encouraged to "come out in this thread" and wimin with nipples on their breasts... Well at least one on each mound and 2 or more 'mounds' on bipodal 'naked apes', as humanity is sometimes defined...

I don't think Monica has nipples, and she may be pregnant too?

[Frosty]

Ive been playing with the engines again today, you know just a cuddle here and there, a flick with the feather duster.

I noticed that the big YANMAR sign on the top of the cam box was coming off, it was just held on with contact adhesive, so I pulled it off.

Holy Crap------ in big letters stamped in the cam box was the word TOYOTA. ------- Now I knew they were Toyotas from internet search but Geeeeezuz the cheeky bastards, you would thing they would grind that off would'nt you?

[Fanie]

I can buy a Toyota engine locally for around 6k. How much did you pay extra for the yanmar sign... and the poor adhesive :D

The new car diesel engines ie Audi perform surprisingly well and are light on diesel as well as to the old ones that were real smokers with poor performance.

Maybe you should retire those two toyota motors as andchors and obtain the new performance ones...

[TollyWally]

If the toyotas are to be fit with chain and tossed over the side as a mooring please ship them to me first! :) Now that the oiling issues are behind us I can give them a loving home for the duration. Amazing the value of a few labels and glue, branding is a funny thing. Seems so very important yet it matters not, working under a patina of hard use.

[Frosty]

Well yes and no. 2 of them cost 54,000 ausi dollars.

They come with D type guage panels, ZF gearbox, intercooler, very large non Toyata turbo, An attached bronze heat exchanger made in new York!! different oil cooling system, different inlet manifold, Jhonson impellor pump Yanmar engine mountings, etc etc.

just bolt it in. Plus I thought that the boat would be worth at least 50,000 dollars more by having in Yanmars than a hino's truck motor.

[masalai]

I guess - Next time it will be a truck or car (SUV?) motor and marinised locally.... :D:P:!::?:

[Frosty]

I looked at that Mass very carefully, it only saves a few thousand.

[masalai]

And years of anguish? and having to piss in pockets to find nothing out from Yan???

[Frosty]

Weell I know I said Yanmar are crap but now I got the issues under control , Ille tell yer they start by just putting the key in the hole. They are giving gobs of power and do the job perfectly I have not replaced anything not even an impellor over 7 years,--I got 4 spares.

Things might have been different if I had lived in Aus where the engineer could come and see.

Even if it is a Toyota I can use Toyota spares then!!!!

The Land cruiser 1 HD 6 cylinder diesel is still known as a ball kicker in 4 wheel drive vehicles.

Geezuz Frosty is such a wanker complaining about Yanmar now he loves them.

Ha-- Beat yer to it!!

[masalai]

Not-so ;) :o, - - I would have said, "Frosty, you should have called this thread - 'Toyota/Yanmar marine conversion engine is great... but service support is frickin NOT good enough' - ..." - - - - :D:D:D:P:P:P

For being so "self effacing" and "non-arrogant", I tried to award you some points but Jeff, it seems, has disabled my generosity - - - "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Frosty again."