Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

[oldsailor7]

This thread is for all the builders and sailors of the Lock Crowther designed Buccaneer 24 Sailing Trimaran.
The idea is that builders/sailors can ask questions and swap ideas to help each other in their task.
Lets hear from you guys. :D

[danskram]

That's a great idea, thanks oldsailor...

[Oceannavagator]

Thanks for starting this forum OS I'm anxiously waiting for my plans, cleaning my shop up and having my saw blades sharpened. Tell me; are there any sites on the web that deal with the building of the little Buccaneer? If not, I may try to keep a close photo record of the build for that purpose.
Mike:)

[oldsailor7]

Mike, there are no build sites that I know of, but if you are willing to do that I am sure it would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers. OP7

[Mr. Noodle]

I'll definitely be following this thread since I'm debating picking up a set of plans and building a modified Buc24...

... Out of Aluminum! :P

edit: this post isn't meant to turn this thread into a aluminum debate thread... I should probably post in the other thread about it.

Noodle

[Oceannavagator]

Well Mr. Noodle, welcome to the thread, I already have a name suggestion for your boat. Since it takes roughly 30 sheets of something to build the boat, and since the built weight should be about1000 lbs, your going to have to limit yourself to .050 5052 aluminum. Aside from the difficulty in welding without distortion you would have to avoid any docking errors religiously. I'd call the craft "Beercan". More seriously, if you are impressed with the boat enough to build the thing you'll be much more pleased with it if you follow the advise of the guy who designed it. I think you would be happier if you found plans for something in the material of your choice. Even a small jon boat is made of .090 material. I've been a welding engineer for 35 years and would be happy to discuss this with you on another thread but for any multihull under 35 feet, I'll stick with plywood and epoxy.
Mike :)

[danskram]

I received my plans yesterday,and read and reviewed the Drawings, instructions and Bote-Cote epoxy booklet. I've never built a boat before, so I want to be sure I'm doing it right...
The way I understand the order of construction is; 1. you first cut out the frames and hull sides, edging, gunwales and stringers. 2. put a thin layer of epoxy over all material (encapsulation,according to the epoxy booklet) . 3. Glue and nail edging on frames, and glue and nail the chines, gunwales and stringers onto hull sides.
Question, Don't they usually put the frames up first , then nail and glue the chines, stringers and gunwales to the frames??

Dan

[rasorinc]

You need 3 coats of epoxy to encapsulate and waterproof wood. Much of it can be done before you place frames, etc. on the jig where you lay up the strigers and install plywood.

[Oceannavagator]

Dan,
I haven't received the plans yet but I've built several boats and I believe that the buc's method is much the same as stitch and glue. The boat's sides controls the shape when it is attached to the frames. You must then level and square the boat before attaching the rest of the planking. A very simple method once you get your head around the general technique.
Mike :)

[oldsailor7]

DAN mentioned Bote-Cote Epoxy in his last post.
Everyone pleased be advised that Bote-Cote is not available in North America, only in Australia.
If you want to find a suitable epoxy in your area just Google "Boatbuilding Epoxies", and you will find a wealth of information.

A word of warning. Do not use "Epoxy thinners" which are evaporative solvents. During the epoxy cure the "Thinner" evaporates leaving microscopic holes which allow the ingress of water vapour, defeating the whole theory of the method. If you have a difficulty in determining whether a thinner is OK, look for the words "100% solids", or a dead giveaway, like in the International Paints brochure, which states that their solvent is good for cleaning fibreglass and metal surfaces , OR FOR THINNING EPOXY. :eek:

[Oceannavagator]

You are right as rain again OS. There are many 100% solids epoxies available in north america, but I have wondered for quite some time now if total encapsulation is the panacea that it touts to be. even if you can achieve complete coverage in the beginning, contact with docks and the inevitable grounding at 10 knots can develop cracks and scratches that will allow water in. I've had good results using borate salts in warm water applied to the enclosed area of my wooden boats and a outer surface of 2 oz cloth set in epoxy for a wear surface. With good ventilation, plywood boats have lasted many years. There is even evidence that applying the borate solution before the epoxy, in other words; under the epoxy, won't affect adhesion as long as the surface is dried first. And it is much lighter and less expensive than the epoxy.
Mike :)

[danskram]

I just read something today about using borax and or eythylene glycol on wood to prevent rot, fungus, organisms etc from eating up your wood.
Here is the page http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/rot.html

And do any of you guys know where to buy the best/safest EPOXY to use in the USA, at a fair price?? I found MAS resin at Noah's marine for $69.00 a gallon, and the hardener for $59.00 per 1/2 gallon. West and System Three are all more expensive and I read where West is more toxic. Also At Aeromarine products they have there own brand manufactured by the same chemical companies for $79.00 for a 2 gallon kit (1 gal. resin, 1 gal. hardener).

Dan

[dialdan]

Dan
Buccaneers are built slightly different than normal hard chine construction. Start with one float , cut out the sides to given dimensions glue stringers chine log and gunwhale to sides leaving the chine and gunwhale slightly proud of the ply (so it can be trimmed back later about 6mm) add butt blocks between stringers and chine/gunwhale .
Cut frames from ply, glue edging timber to frames,trim edging back to ply , stand both sides up on a level floor temporarily screw transom in place (or clamp) clamp stems together , now the fun part ,using the midsection frame slide it into place and twist it to spread the sides apart , do this with all the frames and when satisfied all is level and there is no twist (use your eye sighting down the length of the hull )mark the position of the notches for the stringers chines and gunwhale.
I should have mentioned the edging timber goes to the front on all frames forward of the middle frame and to the rear on all frames back ,dont forget to mark the bevel on the edging timber , this can be done with some stringer offcut. Now you can pull it all apart and encapsulate before the final assembly
Sorry if this post is a little long
Al Cooper

[danskram]

Thanks Al, now I understand the instructions more clearly...your info will help a lot.
Dan

[dialdan]

Dan
Glad to help, although a little rusty 30 yrs since I built mine ,best boat I have ever owned .


Ps You might consider the purchase of a staple gun it leaves one hand free
It may even work out cheaper cause you can sell when finished

[danskram]

Al, Yeh I need a power stapler and power planer.
Dan

[Oceannavagator]

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com

Has an economy resin. A 6 gallon kit is $312 bucks they also sell brand name stuff as well.
Mike :)

[oldsailor7]

Al, Yeh I need a power stapler and power planer.
Dan

Modern power staplers can be rented and consist of a self contained portable unit powered by a compressed gas cartridge. A far cry from the electric powered pressure tank unit on wheels joined to the staple gun by a pressure hose. It was unwieldy I know, but far better than hand hammering in thousands of bronze ringnails as we did on my first 24' tri,--a Piver Nugget. :eek:
Electric planer is an absolute must, unless you want to develop a mighty forearm. :D

[bruceb]

My buc 24 is 35+ years and was built in Canada almost exactly to the plans. (I think by a friend of OS) The epoxy has done a very good job of preventing rot, but I think using rot resistant marine ply would be a good idea, particularly in the bulkheads and decks. (power-ply* and others) Mine spent most of the last 25 years in the water in Maryland- warm in the summer, freezing in the winter and most of the damage has been from rain water. The cabin and decks rotted and were replaced, the bottoms of the hulls are in very good condition. I have made several repairs and a new dagger board on mine using Raka brand (from florida) epoxy and have been pleased so far. Price and service is also good. Their brand seems to work particularly well in warmer southern US weather and gives you plenty of lay-up time. I don't like to hurry:) I made a new hull bulkhead from OS's plans and it fit perfectly!!:) They are easy to work from once you see what Crowther intended. If any builder has any detail questions, just ask. I do have some ideas for changes/modifications and I am still trying to engineer a good folding system. Right now though, I am just sailing mine and enjoying it. :cool: Bruce

[oldsailor7]

To those of you who may be inexperienced in the use of a power planer, don't set the blades to cut too deep, and practice a bit on scrap wood before attacking your pride and joy.

A good tip to speed things up is to attach a piece of wood, or alloy angle, to the platen of your planer so that it rests on an adjoining stringer when you are cutting the angle on the chines and keels. Makes a perfect chamfer each time.

Cheers. OS7. :D

[Oceannavagator]

I do have some ideas for changes/modifications

Bruce,
If you have ideas for improvements I'd certainly like to hear them. Since I'm in the planning and procuring stages. One thing I belive I'll change is the rigging with the new non stretch rope instead of wire. It's much lighter and looks more suitable for a boat that gets derigged several times per year for trailering.
Mike :)

[oldsailor7]

Yes Mike.

IMO that is the modern way to go.

If anyone wants to learn about it ---just Google "Dyneema".

[bruceb]

The buc 24 sails quite well as designed, but the rig (and rigging)and the foils are primitive and can be improved with little difference in cost, at least here in the US. I priced new aluminum pipe for the cross beams, and at 600 to 800 dollars they would cost, composite beams really start to make good sense- probably lighter, stronger and maybe less money. They can also free up cabin and cockpit space, and should be easier to make fold or dismount. Are you planing your boat as a cruiser or?? I think Crowther did a really wonderful job of keeping the Buc 24 easy and inexpensive to build and still provide good all round performance. Almost every modification I have considered adds to build time, weight, and/or cost, so they have to be analyzed very carefully. Of course, I am going to keep changing mine:) Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce said --[Quote]:- "and the foils are primitive and can be improved with little difference in cost"[Quote].

Most of the home built foils I have seen can be improved at NO cost if the builder gives the proper attention to these very important appendages. It is not enough to round the leading edge and taper the trailing edge a bit, leaving the rest flat.

It is essential that boards and rudders be given a suitable foil section. Often this section is not even supplied by the designer.

The Board and Rudder have very different jobs to do. The boards job is to resist leeway at minimum drag and this it does best at an angle of attack of about 4deg, and so can have a slim supersonic section.

The rudder however has a more difficult job, as it's angle is varying all the time at much greater angles. Thus it requires a thicker section, with a rounder nose, to enable the water flow to remain attached to its surface.
With surface piercing (overhanging) rudders, like the the one shown on the stock B24, air entrainment can occur at high speed and large rudder angles. This of course causes the rudder to become ineffective, usually resulting in a wild broach. (Ask Samz).

Small boundary layer "fences" are very effective, as they generate a vortex which captures entrained air and spins it away to the rear of the rudder, safeguarding the waterflow of the rudder surface further down. On my B24 there were three fences down the rudder blade made from thin aluminium angle 1/2" wide, screwed to the rudder cheeks with countersunk head screws. Worked very well.

I remember a builder of a Buccaneer 33 who thought shaping the rudder was "unecessary" and simply band sawed his rudder blank from a piece of 2" plank and left it at that.

Rectangular section ???--Bad News. :eek:

[Oceannavagator]

Bruce said I priced new aluminum pipe for the cross beams, and at 600 to 800 dollars they would cost
You need to shop a little more Bruce, I've got them new at less than 400 bucks locally.
As far as the foils are concerned, I can't imagine anyone not putting a NACA section on them both. I think that they need to be a little thicker and I have yet to see a daggerboard or a keel for that matter that wasn't improved with an end plate.
Rig wise, I'll do some research on what aluminum mast section that is appropriate, but for me the boat will be just a quick little boat to sail and weekend in, I'm not interested in formal racing. I'm planning to keep the boat on a trailer rigged up during sailing season and just slap it in the water on the weekend. This saves about two thirds of the slip fee and 99 % of the wear and tear on the boat. It also allows for easier maintenance.
I've read about guys who have; lengthened the hull, dropped the chine line lower aft, added 5 feet onto the stick, wanted to build the boat from aluminum, wanted to build out of foam sandwich and some even wilder stuff. At what point do you say "I bought the wrong plans?" As it is, the buc is a small, easy to build inexpensive boat that sails pretty well, I think it ought to be built pretty much like it's designed.
Mike

[bruceb]

Mike, you are right on the pipe prices, I had checked last year and al has really dropped since then:) I had included a 6' piece of 4" od 1/4' wall to replace the wooden joint plugs- a worthwhile up-grade. Mine have gotten really loose over the years. On the mods, I don't agree. (this is a forum:rolleyes:) While the Buc 24 is a good boat as built, it is a 40 year old design that can be improved. Easily. I have been sailing mine for a year and experimenting and studying other designs, and I think that the simplicity and easy construction that Crowther intended can be kept and he would have probably made about the same changes if he designed the Buc today. Most of his later designs and almost all "modern" tri's have longer high volume floats, the buc's can be extended one "station" (just over two feet) and gain some much need forward reserve flotation. My bows dip just a little too easily for my taste, and I am used to a hobie 16. The transom extention is a little more involved, but also worth while, for a cruiser or a racer. The extra volume aft would help keep from dragging the transom with the usual oversized outboard and two adults in the cockpit and reduce the tendency to hobby-horse that the 24 is prone. Both mods together would use less than two sheets of ply total, add 80-100lbs, and about a day and a half to construction. Crowther was trying to keep the 24 to three sheets long, but today we have much better scarfing tools available and the time and material is minimal for the results. I really like my boat, but I will keep changing it as I have time. I have included some pics of the dagger board I built, it is a big change in performance, more than I expected. I have about 25hrs and $200 in it- well worth the time and money. Bruce

[Oceannavagator]

A super job on the board Bruce. Is that a fiberglass stiffening strip in the middle of the board?
Sorry, I'm just an old welding engineer and people who change my specs just drive me crazy. I guess some of my 40 year old work could stand a little updating by now too. How about giving me some insight on the mods that you would do if you were building from scratch. And by the way, where do you sail in Atlanta?
Mike, in Richmond.

[Manie B]

Have you guys got a web site to buy these plans?
Buccaneer24

because

The business has evolved and grown in recent years, and as a result of this, Incat Crowther are no longer able to offer sailing vessel design or technical support for sailing vessels less than 60ft. Stock plans are no longer available

http://www.incatcrowther.com/Display.php?type=design&category=Sailing

i cant seem to find it

thanks guys

[danskram]

Manie, do a search for Buc 24 plans on this forum or go to ( 24" Buccaneer Trimaran Plans), or just send a Private Message to "oldsailor7". He has the plans, I just bought mine and they're really nice ..
Dan

[bruceb]

Thanks Mike. I am an old boat dealer and I LIKE to change things:) I like people that pay attention to details too. Yes, that is a 1/4" x 2" fiberglass batten on each side of a board, and the light colored areas are foam. The board weighs 24lbs finished with 3 layers of glass. It is 7'5" overall with a cord of 15" and 1 1/4" thick. It could be lighter, but I was too cheap to use carbon and I had to add some filler:mad: I didn't get it quite right the first try, but it is very fair now. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
That looks like one hell of a powerful daggerboard.
Does it interfere with the boom when it is fully up ??

[Oceannavagator]

Bruce, in adding a station to the floats; would you add it in the middle and let the length run out both ends or position the whole float more forward? And exactly how would you add to the stern? I'm not sure if I'll do this but I'm now open to suggestion. I think you are right about the construction changes being easy, A person could add 2-3 inches at each frame and adjust the lines of the side accordingly. I'd like to hear your input.
Mike:)

[oldsailor7]

Mike.
If I was adding two feet forward to the floats I would simply spread the frames six inches further apart, forward of the fwd crossbeam.
I would also add a second stringer extending 2ft past Frame 4 to take care of the extra squeezing forces on the sides of the bow. I would also extend the gunnel re-inforcement one foot fore and aft of the crossbeam attachment area, to take the extra compression from the up-force on the longer bows.

Just my HO. Cheers. OP7. :D

[Manie B]

i dont want to buy plans, its just a very cool boat and i enjoy reading about it

it is one of those tri's that "talks" to me and more of them should be built

anyway guys keep up the good work cheers

if you got more details than this please post links

[Oceannavagator]

Mike.
If I was adding two feet forward to the floats I would simply spread the frames six inches further apart, forward of the fwd crossbeam.
I would also add a second stringer extending 2ft past Frame 4 to take care of the extra squeezing forces on the sides of the bow. I would also extend the gunnel re-inforcement one foot fore and aft of the crossbeam attachment area, to take the extra compression from the up-force on the longer bows.
Good food for thought OS.
Thanks again
Mike

[bruceb]

I like OS7's method for extending the floats and I think it puts the volume where it would be most effective. Also very easy- we already have the plans:) The transom extension would require using some battens to find the proper bulkhead profiles but still pretty easy. I would suspend the transom about 2' further back and then fair the bottom and sides to it starting from about 3 bulkheads forward. The hull has a very definite turn up about there. Yes, OS7, my board does have to stay down about a foot (below the hull) to clear the bottom of the main. It seems worth it for performance. I seem to be 1-2 tenths of a knot faster on most points and really lift to weather with out pinching. I think the boat is faster because it is not making hardly any lee way? The lift to drag ratio must be a lot better. I am still finding the best positions for it; it can swing fore and aft as well as be partly raised. Right now, I keep it down and forward up wind and raise it to the knuckle and cant it aft reaching and running. It tapers both ways below the knuckle so the drag drops quickly as it is raised- you can feel it. I am re-building my old board for cruising- shorter is less effort and the long board draws about 6' down, very good for finding the bottom:mad: Bruce

[oldsailor7]

[Quote] "and the long board draws about 6' down, very good for finding the bottom Bruce." [Quote].

LOL Bruce. :D
You would never get away with that in Toronto harbour---where the bottom is still littered with concrete blocks left over from the building of the outer harbour. :eek:

Yes. The improvement in the L/D ratio is very important. I am sure most sailors don't think about the tremendous increase in drag when the whole underbody of the hulll is dragged sideways, paticularly in light conditions. :o

[bruceb]

I bet finding a piece of concrete can ruin your whole day:mad: Our lake is mostly 30'-80' deep- but there are reefs. I think I know where most of them are:confused: I considered building the board out of foam/carbon/glass to be sort of break away but the price of the carbon fiber was high and I am used to wood, epoxy and glass. I didn't trust my building/designing skills to make it strong enough but expendable. It would have been lighter by probably 8-10lbs and a lot more expensive- particularly if it broke. I did try to leave some crushable foam areas in mine. I agree on the drag, a sort of flat bottom monohull can get by with some side slip, but a tri's hulls don't like to go sideways at all. I built my board foil shaped all the way to the top so I could experiment with jibing it about 2 degrees. I have it shimmed on center right now- one thing at a time. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce said :- "It would have been lighter by probably 8-10lbs"

Bruce--I don't think the weight of a board matters too much (unless it's made of lead---Ugh!!).
No matter how you make it in wood/epoxy, it is going to be lighter than the water it displaces. ;)

In the case of your big board ---when you have it fully up, thats another matter.

[oldsailor7]

For those of you who may be interested, there is a very intense exchange of views regarding 22 to 30 ft multihulls in the Multihulls section of the Sailing Anarchy forums. Just click on Google. Or here:-http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=93021

[Samnz]

Hey Its great to see new boats being built in this great design!

My boat is for sale.

Not sure how much it would cost to get it to the USA but would be a great buy for someone who doesnt have the time to build one.

http://www.multihull.org.nz/buy-and-sell/for-sale-1016.htm

I think it works out at US$12500

I am building a new bigger Tri as the Girlfriend wants space for a family down the line for cruising. Will be very hard to beat the Bucc 24 iv owned for 7 years for value for money fun racing and cruising with 2 people!

[redreuben]

"Will be very hard to beat the Bucc 24 iv owned for 7 years"

Guess you'll be building a Bucc 28 then? Or will you go to 33?

[Oceannavagator]

Ok guys, how bout this; I don't want to lengthen the boat, but you say that it needs more bearing aft. How about starting at the #5 frame widening the boat to be about 4 inches wider at the transom by essentially cutting the frame patterns in half vertically and adding progressively wider sections in the middle to end up at the transom with a 4 inch flat (or slightly convex) bottom? The chine could be lowered slightly to straighten the run out. The floats could be lengthened up front, problem solved.
Comments? criticisms? condemnations? belly laughs?
Mike :D

[Samnz]

"Will be very hard to beat the Bucc 24 iv owned for 7 years"

Guess you'll be building a Bucc 28 then? Or will you go to 33?

no the main hull and beams are my own design, and the floats are tortured ply from a local designer. Will cost many times the price of my Bucc to complete.

The Bucc 24 is a brilliant boat and you cant beat it for value for money.

[bruceb]

Mike, I think you would get about half of the needed lift aft. Maybe better , but it does not address the steep departure angle of the bottom. It will still pull a large wave up at around 6-8kts and probably be slower in light conditions. I think I would leave it stock before I did that, you just have to work at keeping the weight out of the back of the boat. OS7, my board does float- I have to tie it down, but like the new racing bathing suits, if it floats higher, it is going to be faster:) Maybe we should build our boats out of that new? poly-what?? fabric that they use. I have been working on my own personal flotation with pizza and beer- I float higher every year:D Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Ok guys, how bout this; I don't want to lengthen the boat, but you say that it needs more bearing aft. How about starting at the #5 frame widening the boat to be about 4 inches wider at the transom by essentially cutting the frame patterns in half vertically and adding progressively wider sections in the middle to end up at the transom with a 4 inch flat (or slightly convex) bottom? The chine could be lowered slightly to straighten the run out. The floats could be lengthened up front, problem solved.
Comments? criticisms? condemnations? belly laughs?
Mike :D

MIKE.
As they say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Unless you are a very heavy bloke, and intend to hang a heavy outboard on the transom, build it as designed.

The low wetted surface and light weight makes the B24 a superberb light wind sailer, which will silently move out when other boats appear to be anchored to the water.

If dragging it's transom worries you (it shouldn't) then load all your heavy gear up in the foward bunk area.

The sail plan shown is ideal for cruising. You simply dont need a bigger sail plan unless you intend to indulge in serious racing (like Samz) :D.

The B24's waterline L/B ratio is fairly low for a multi.
If it had been designed as an all out racer it would have an L/B of 11 or 12, but would then have to be very light, with minimum load carring capacity.
The B24 has a good payload capacity, since it was designed as a simple, low cost, pocket cruiser-- It's effortless speed came as a bonus.

All I can say about the mods you suggest, is, don't do it. All you are doing is adding to the weight and wetted surface (drag), and detrimentally changing the hulls prismatic co-efficient.

Just my HO. :D

[Oceannavagator]

Got cha OS, I like the idea of build as designed, I was just daydreaming a little. Oh yeah, didn't you say that you built yours out of 1/4 inch fir marine ply? It's writen as an option on the plans. Were the floats 1/4 also?
Mike :D

[oldsailor7]

MIKE.
I built mine with 1/4" Samba mahogany, a very light wood. I am sure it is not available today.

1/4" Douglas Fir (Oregon) is very strong but heavy. It is OK if you don't sheath the boat with F/Glass. Three thin coats of epoxy and taped seams are all you need. Just follow the directions in the little booklet I sent you.

If you will be sailing in a fresh water area you must make sure that the fir ply is completely coated EVERYWHERE, as it rots very quickly. Even if you sail in seawater, rainwater gets into the bilge and does its rotten job.

OS7. :D

[bruceb]

Mike, my boat is fir ply and I would not recommend it. Mine was very carefully coated and spent most of its life in salt water- that is why it has survived, but any marine mahogany would be a much better choice. Keep to the thicknesses that Crowther specified and the boat will come out light and plenty strong. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

As an example my Buccaneer 28 was not sheathed in F/Glass.
I used 1/4" Weldwood mahogany marine ply and simply coated it with the three coats of epoxy and finished off with two coats of UV resistant polyeurethane paint.
All the seams were glassed with 2" tape of course.
Lasted very well until I sold it on leaving for Australia.

I holed the boat once (on a concrete block at the edge of Toronto harbour) and another hole where a drifting boat rammed my starboard float near the stern above the waterline, whilst on the mooring. Both damages were easily repaired using standard epoxy techniques. If the hull had been fiberglassed it would have made no difference.

[Oceannavagator]

Ok. I'm beginning to lean towards Okoume 4 mm ply covered with 2oz surfboard cloth if for no other reason than weight savings. Okoume in 4mm weighs in at 13 pounds per sheet while fir and meranti in 1/4 are more like 20-23 lbs. I'm partial to the hard smooth surface that the light cloth gives and the weight is negligible. It may not add to the puncture resistance but it makes for a slick, hard to scratch surface that slips through the water well. Samba, I think, may be a brand name for Okoume ply but I'm not sure. I do know that there are only two major mahogany's; African and Philippine, everything else is just a sub species of one or the other. This may be an over simplification but in my experience, I think that the manufacturer has more to do with the quality of the stuff than what it is made of.
By the way, I don't know which one of you guys put the 6 minute video up on Utube of a buccaneer 24 sailing off Milwaukee, but KUDOS to whoever did it. I am inspired and anxious for a vid of your boat in stronger winds. The ice boat stuff was cool too, scary fast, and cold looking. Thanks
Mike

[bruceb]

Mike, the 4mm is probably fine for the upper sides of the all the hulls, but from the upper chine down, I would use meranti or power ply in at least 6mm or double 4mm (or more on the bottom). 4mm does not allow for any "rounding" of the chines, which I think is important. The area is small so the added weight and cost is minimal and you will have a stronger and much more rot proof boat. I can show you where mine has had problems, and I have seen the same issues in most all wooden boats that live in southern waters. The heat and moisture eventually gets to all of them. At this time, it is easy to reduce or prevent almost all of the problems. Do it right. I do like the light glass covering, it will make a nice finish without much weight. Bruce

[Oceannavagator]

well, now that I'm totally undecided.:confused: we are talking about 100-150 lbs aren't we? Is the weight that important? A total of say 480 sq feet of plywood 15 sheets, 4mm vs 6mm = 100 lbs difference. everything else is equal. Are we just splitting hairs here? Most people carry that much in beer, ice and fishing equipment. Wouldn't a heavy 24 be much faster than a light monohull? On the plans I see 3000 lbs for max displacement. I can't see the structure weighting more than 5 or 6 hundred lbs.
I'm swimming in indecision here.HELP!! :eek:
Mike

[oldsailor7]

MIKE.
Don't get your knickers in a knot with indecision.
Just build it according to the designers specs.

1/4" ply all over, and 5/16" ply where specified.

It will be fine.

Cheers, OS7. :D

[bruceb]

Mike, you can see in the photos that mine floats on its lines, and that is in fresh water. The cabin would add about 130 lbs, but in the pics at least that much in gear is on board and I have a taller, heavier mast. Mine is mostly 1/4" fir ply with some 1/2" in the cockpit floor- not lightly built but still under 1500 lbs. Don't worry too much about weight, just use good materials to spec. My floats are just under 200 lbs each (quite heavy), I estimate my main hull at 800 lbs, and the rest is in the cross tubes, mast, rig and fittings. By my estimates, using ply as I suggested, the boat should be 1200-1300 lbs as designed, and very fast:), or it could carry plenty of extra gear and crew. Bruce

[Oceannavagator]

Thanks for the picture Bruce, I've calmed down now. Question; is your mast an extrusion or the pipe specified in the plans? If it's an extrusion, I'd like to know the dimensions as I don;t think I'll be happy with the pipe mast. I'm trying to find out what the moment of inertia is for 4 1/2 inch tube but it's not easy to find and there's too many unknowns for me to figure it out myself. I know that a multihull's quick motion requires a heavier stick, at least in the fore and aft direction, but the question is how much heavier?
Mike :)

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
How are you making out with your super long daggerboard?
How noticeable are the performance improvements.?
Close windedness, speed to windward etc:

You are our prime experimentor in this regard. :cool:

Cheers. Paddy. :D

[bruceb]

Mike, my mast is the same as a Stiletto 27 catamaran complete with fittings, spreaders and rotating base and ball. 36' overall with an I of 30'. The ball (step) is about 14" lower than a Buc 24 with a cabin. I will measure the section next time I am at the boat. It was added by the second owner and seems to be a good choice. I am still experimenting with the board- I have not had it out in wind over 12 kts and I am still learning how to best use it. I am hoping for a breeze this weekend:) I will report with details. Bruce

[bruceb]

I tried the boat in 15kts gusting a little higher and smooth water with my self-tacking jib (85%) and about 350lbs of crew. With the board down all the way the boat will lift slightly above its heading. (fun but probably slower) I experimented with raising it a few inches at a time, it seems to be best raised about 8-10 inches. My knot meter is not accurate enough to see the difference, but I was tuning against a couple of larger monohulls that were pretty steady. I have the board angled aft about half the stock amount, that seems to be a good compromise of balance and pointing with my rig. My board is 89" overall with a 15" max cord and my trunk is 29" deep. I have filled the extra trunk opening with foam. The boat is faster, points a lot higher, and responds to the rudder better. Close hauled, it accelerates more in the puffs and doesn't seem to heel as much. I will keep testing and reporting, I really like it so far. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
If you can borrow a hand held GPS you can accurately determine the most efficient depth for your new board.
Paddy. :D

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
If---as you say, you find that the new board is most efficient raised 8-10 inches, do you intend to shorten the board by that much.? :?:

[jamez]

If Capricorn had dug in much further here, you would have been able to scale the daggerboard off the photo.:D

[oldsailor7]

Fantastic shot Jamez.

Just shows what the Buc24 can take.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if the floats had been longer they would have had sufficient leverage to trip the boat over. :eek:

[Oceannavagator]

Startling picture Jamez, you must have left quite a crease in the seat cushions after that spin-out. Have you ever had the boat capsize?
Mike :eek:

[jamez]

Yeah, that boat is built out of 4mm ply and is nearly 40 years old. Its a great pic but i can't take credit for it. Samnz (owner of the boat) posted it on our local sailing forum. These nose-dives are relatively common while racing. Its not been flipped to my knowledge.

[Oceannavagator]

The crease I was speaking of is the one that happens when you clench your rear end up. I think that I may stick to the stock rig myself.
Oh yeah, someone was going to furnish me with the dimensions of his mast this past weekend. Bruce, you didn't happen to jot them down did you?
Mike :D

[Tom.151]

Samnz (owner of the boat) posted it on our local sailing forum.
Calling Samnz...
I'd really like to learn the details of the crossbeam modifications on Capricorn.
Do you have any webpages showing the details?

(1) Some 30+ years ago I sailed with a friend who built his B24 to stock plans and without a doubt it was the quickest accelerating boat I had/have ever sailed on.
(2) After going on the rocks during a hurricane we hauled the boat and repaired the main hull and both amas over one weekend. Says volumes about the benefits of simple construction. BTW - no probs with the crossbeams etc from the boat going on the rocks - stoutly designed.

If I were changing anything...
I'd just plumb the bows of all three hulls (keeping the knuckle of the vaka at the waterline however) and refair the stringers to the new stem/bow. Doing it that way will make the hull shapes fatter forward and does bring the buoyancy quite a bit forward by itself.

And maybe take some of the rocker out of the main hull. If I remember correctly, I think Locke was a bit stuck with that main hull shape because of the need for getting some cruising displacement inside of the Micro Class rules.

Yes, I have the plans to build my own! And would be building to the plans if I hadn't stumbled across this damn thread and seen the Samnz crossbeams!

Cheers to all, great ideas brewing here,
TomH

[jamez]

The crease I was speaking of is the one that happens when you clench your rear end up. I think that I may stick to the stock rig myself.
Oh yeah, someone was going to furnish me with the dimensions of his mast this past weekend. Bruce, you didn't happen to jot them down did you?
Mike :D

Hi Mike, yeah I knew what you were referring to but wasn't on the boat. To be honest the guys that sail it are so used to it popping right back up when it digs in I don't think they are fazed by it any more.

I was out on the water that day watching the days racing from a launch:eek: actually it was a large powercat so thats oK :D was a great afternoon out , heres one of my pics taken earlier in the day from leeward, you can just see the float starting to submerge.

Tom, the beams on this boat were discussed towards the end of one of the other B24 threads.

[Oceannavagator]

Fantastic photo Jamez, it's kind of hard to tell how hard the wind was blowing because of the headland there sheltering the water but from the looks of the whitecaps it may have been 10-15 knots. That's a tremendous amount of sail he has up on that reach. That rooster-tail that he has behind him looks as though he's traveling at least 15 knots. Very exciting!
Cutting out frames as we speak.
Mike

[oldsailor7]

Tom Henry.
Are you actually building your B24, or are you still contemplating.?

Do you still have the B28 plans. ?

[jamez]

Fantastic photo Jamez, it's kind of hard to tell how hard the wind was blowing because of the headland there sheltering the water but from the looks of the whitecaps it may have been 10-15 knots. That's a tremendous amount of sail he has up on that reach. That rooster-tail that he has behind him looks as though he's traveling at least 15 knots. Very exciting!
Cutting out frames as we speak.
Mike

Good guess Mike it was about 12-15 knots most of the day with the occasional gust of 20 or so.

[Samnz]

If Capricorn had dug in much further here, you would have been able to scale the daggerboard off the photo.:D

Actually we werent even racing when this photo was taken we were just cruising back to the mooring drinking beer...

It looks bad in the photo, really bad actually, but its miles away from actaully digging in, we dont even ease the sheets, just hold on and wait for the boat to pop up and take off :D

amazingly forgiving design!!!

top speed earlier in the day was about 18.5 knots, highly doubt there was ever over 20 knots of breeze Jamez?

[bruceb]

OS7, I will try to quantify the new board's performance, but I am still learning to take advantage of it- and work up the confidence to push the boat as hard as Capricorn::cool: I am not cutting anything off until I am really sure I don't need it:D We have a club regatta sept 5th and I am hoping a couple of F24s come out and play. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Good ONYA Bruce.
Just show those F24s a thing or two. :D

[redreuben]

Bruceb,

How do you usually fair against the F24?

[bruceb]

Our faster F24s haven't been out since I put my buc back in the water. Our best sailing season is just starting, I hope I am able to sail to the boat's potential. Bruce

[bruceb]

I measured my mast section- Aprox 6.25" x 3.7" "teardrop" shape. The base, mast and masthead are stock Stiletto-27 cat parts that rotate on a 2" ball. My mast is 36' overall with the forestay/shroud tang about 6.5' from the top. It has diamond stays and spreaders. I don't know the the section weight but the whole mast, halyards and 3/16" shrouds (wire) weighs around 80 lbs. The mast is quite stiff, probably more than would be required if built to the stock Buc 24 specs. I think the 3/16" shrouds (stock buc 24 size) are marginal for the mast and sail area I have and the closed barrel 5/16" turnbuckles are definitely not up to the job- I will replace it all this winter. I don't have running backstays but will probably add them for the large reacher and some redundancy. Bruce

[Oceannavagator]

Thank's for the information Bruce. It looks as if you have approximately the same weight per foot as the stock design does.
I know that this thread is about the Buccaneer 24 but after the discussions about ama's being driven under I thought I would send this picture that I ran across showing just how far that can go. Supposedly the boat recovered from this and continued the race. I can imagine the crew needed a couple of stiff drinks to recover themselves.

[Tom.151]

My mast is 36' overall with the forestay/shroud tang about 6.5' from the top. It has diamond stays and spreaders. I don't know the the section weight but the whole mast, halyards and 3/16" shrouds (wire) weighs around 80 lbs. I will replace it all this winter. I don't have running backstays but will probably add them for the large reacher and some redundancy. Bruce
bruceb,
here's some great info in synthetic shrouds, etc. I converted my Twiggy to SK-75 and lost a ton of weight in the rig. jmolin's rerig of his Searunner shows lots of other ways to replace metal with synthetics. I really like the soft hanks and soft halyard shackles.

Here...
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=95600
and
http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/jmolan/Alaska%20stuff/Synthetic%20Searunner/?start=all

Hope to see your Buc 24 one day,
TomH

[bruceb]

I agree, I think synthetic is the way to go, it has reached the stage of development and price that it belongs on many boats, including most all multis. I know I will use it for my runners, and I might use it for my shrouds. I do have a lot of wire that I hope someone can use:?:, and a couple of roll swedge machines to go with it:) Bruce

[oldsailor7]

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans available is anyone is interested. :cool:

[bruceb]

I weighed my 30' shrouds- 3/16 with an eye and a stud- 2.5lbs each plus the 1/2 lb turnbuckle. I think I am going to use stainless again, the weight saving and price seem to favor wire. (I have plenty of wire) The cost/benefit might be better in a few more years, right now, synthetic still has durability issues, particularly in small sizes. Bruce

[Samnz]

do you think 3/16 wire is strong enough? I have 1/4 inch wire on my forestay and sidestays, 3/16 on the topmasts, and 3/16 dynex on the mast head runners. 5mm on the diamond stays. I dont know what 5mm is in metric, in between 3/16 and 1/4...
if you sail with all crew on windward float the loads skyrocket on the rig, im not sure Crowther invisioned this!

[oldsailor7]

...if you sail with all crew on windward float the loads skyrocket on the rig, im not sure Crowther invisioned this!

I'm sure he didn't either.
In the 1960s and '70s, NO ONE envisioned taller masts, fathead mylar mains, "prodders" with huge foresails and reaching spinnakers.
The huge sail areas you use on yor B24 would have blown Lockies mind.
(Come to think of it, we had mylar sails on our Piver Nugget in 1964. Fad didn't last tho'). LOL. :D

[bruceb]

Samnz, I think you have the right size wire- 3/16 has a min breaking load of about 3700 lbs and a much lower working load- probably fine on the stock boat. I haven't been loading my boat up this season but I had better plan for the future and use the 1/4" wire. Do you have two sets of shrouds? ( uppers? "3/16" topmast") - I only have one set of shrouds, and diamonds on the mast. I am set up for runners but I haven't installed them yet. Thanks for reading my post, it might help keep my mast "up". Bruce

[Samnz]

Samnz, I think you have the right size wire- 3/16 has a min breaking load of about 3700 lbs and a much lower working load- probably fine on the stock boat. I haven't been loading my boat up this season but I had better plan for the future and use the 1/4" wire. Do you have two sets of shrouds? ( uppers? "3/16" topmast") - I only have one set of shrouds, and diamonds on the mast. I am set up for runners but I haven't installed them yet. Thanks for reading my post, it might help keep my mast "up". Bruce
Uh yes I have a lot of stays on Capricorn since its rig number 3....
you can kind of see them all in this pic...
Topmast sidestays and topmast runners, plus the sidestays, and doubled up diamonds........ :eek:

[Samnz]

I'm sure he didn't either.
In the 1960s and '70s, NO ONE envisioned taller masts, fathead mylar mains, "prodders" with huge foresails and reaching spinnakers.
The huge sail areas you use on yor B24 would have blown Lockies mind.
(Come to think of it, we had mylar sails on our Piver Nugget in 1964. Fad didn't last tho'). LOL. :D

I have argued with many people about this, and still think only higher righting moment can add load to a boat, not more sail area. More sail area just gets the the maximum load quicker, more righting moment actually adds to the maximum load on the rig and hulls/ beams?
More righting moment gained by positioning crew and helmsman on the floats...

[bruceb]

Samnz, That is a good picture:cool: That looks like about a 1000 lbs (no offense to your friends):) and you still have some reserve. I think you are correct, the righting moment does limit the rig loads, but with the speed tri's can hit, shock loads and momentary gust loading can probably double the rig loads. I think my mast section is stiffer than yours, I don't know if that is good or bad. It doesn't go out of column as easily, but it doesn't de-power as quickly either. How do you adjust your side stays? Bruce

[LucD]

Do anyone has detailed photo of the inside and outside of a B24?

[SteveMellet]

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans available is anyone is interested. :cool:

I`m interested. Please PM me or e-mail me at stevemellet(at)gmail.com

[mainsailman]

Hi, there,
thanks to oldsailor7 I've got the drawings of buccaneer 24 couple weeks ago. Can't tell you how I'm amazed of the design! So simple, so effective, just what I've looked for. But as usual haven't got enough time and resources at present to start with the project. Hovewer, I "did some home work". I've tried to put some little comfort in this beautiful boat. For this purpose a deck was lifted and expanded a bit. The underbody remains untoched. I have changed the hull above waterline I can provide the middle section later, but here we need an opinion from specialists. For modifications I planned to use the same materials as in the specification, so the total weight shouldn't be too excessive. I've done short animation by myself just to show to my fife :-) how the boat will look inside in reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv7oIsPKPK4

If my ideas not totally crazy (I do have very little experience but lot of passion in design and building of boats) it would be interesting to hear an opinion from you guys.
It is a real pleasure to read this forum,
Cheers!

[Joe Moore]

mainsailman (and anybody else in the london / southern england area) i'm really keen to see one of these little boats "in the flesh", do keep us updated with your progress.

the youtube animation looks quite impressive, have you got any external mockups?

[Samnz]

Hi, there,
thanks to oldsailor7 I've got the drawings of buccaneer 24 couple weeks ago. Can't tell you how I'm amazed of the design! So simple, so effective, just what I've looked for. But as usual haven't got enough time and resources at present to start with the project. Hovewer, I "did some home work". I've tried to put some little comfort in this beautiful boat. For this purpose a deck was lifted and expanded a bit. The underbody remains untoched. I have changed the hull above waterline I can provide the middle section later, but here we need an opinion from specialists. For modifications I planned to use the same materials as in the specification, so the total weight shouldn't be too excessive. I've done short animation by myself just to show to my fife :-) how the boat will look inside in reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv7oIsPKPK4

If my ideas not totally crazy (I do have very little experience but lot of passion in design and building of boats) it would be interesting to hear an opinion from you guys.
It is a real pleasure to read this forum,
Cheers!

have you got any pictures of how the cabin will look from the outside?? thats a very cool concept for the inside.

[oldsailor7]

Thats a very nice concept,--But---

Where is the bulkhead #4, forward cross beam, crossbeam braces and compression strut, centreboard case and mast step support.

All the major forces pass through bulkhead former #4.
You can't just ignore it.
Also with the cabin accomodation so far forward, it would be very uncomfortable, as the centre of movement in the B24 is just ahead of the companionway bulkhead. I'd like Samnz take on this. He has the experience.

And where are you going to store the sails. :eek:
Front bunk space is the usual place.
Toilet is best placed under the aft end of the bunk bottom.

A very nice galley can be made from 1/4" ply with a 5/16" top. Sink set in and cooktop screwed down. I used a "Port-A-Sink", which holds it's own fresh water supply, with built in pump/tap and drain. The drain goes to an overboard thru hull fitting
A simple bench seat can be constructed on the Stbd side---storage under. A flip up table opposite.
Sealed cell foam upholstery on the bunks and bench seat, with coloured canvas covers. Matching coloured curtains on the cabin windows are a nice touch.
All very inexpensive, but a labour of love --plus a little imagination too.

Hope this helps with Ideas. 0S7. :D

[samfl]

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans available is anyone is interested. :cool:

I am definitely interested if you still have the set of plans available. Please contact me at sssail55@hotmail.com.

[samfl]

There seems to be several types of marine ply available here in my area; okoume and meranti for imported types and fir for domestic. The okoume is made to BS1088 and the meranti is available as BS1088 and BS6566. Any recommendations on which is better for the Buc 24 construction?

[samfl]

Another question on materials. In some building notes on the Buc 24 i found online (I forget where), there is reference to some of the dimensional lumber as "Oregon". I'm not familiar with that term as it is not used locally here in Florida. Can anyone tell me if this is a reference to pine, fir, cedar etc. or what type of lumber available here in the US is a suitable substitute?

[samfl]

I like the beams that Samnz designed for Capricorn, but in my area, I'd still like to be able to dismount the amas to trailer the boat and be able to store it on the hard for hurricane season, having already lost one boat a few years ago to storms. Are there any designs for similar beams that are still dismountable?

[samfl]

Will extending the floats and transom tend to reduce the hobby horsing that I have seen some dicussing in this and other threads? The inlets here can get some pretty fair sized waves even when calm outside with enough onshore wind wind and an outgoing tide. I used to have a 23' monhull (trailerable) that was difficult to get out with under such conditions because the outboard prop kept coming out of the water due to the hobby horsing over waves if I had to go out dead into the wind.

[LucD]

I think that if you are to seal that plywood in and out in epoxy, there is no need to spend the extra money on marine plywood, but you do need a good quality ply. Grade Fir select one side is good. A good marine ply is more than twice the price than Fir. There are many different kind of wood but the application, installation and characteristic would be different.
Well, this is my 2 cent.

[samfl]

LucD, You suggest grade fir select one side as a possible alternative to marine ply. How does this compare to marine ply in terms of strength, weight and the ability to get a fair curve when bending. I thought the main advantage to the marine ply if the quality of the veneers used (no or less voids, patches etc.) a more balanced construction with thicker outer veneers, and that fir ply is generally heavier than okoume or meranti (although they may not have the same strength as the fir).

[jamez]

In a boat like the Bucc 24 its better to keep it as light as possible. Occume and meranti are both lighter than D-Fir. Occume is the lightest and generally the most expensive. Although some say that Occume is less durable than Meranti, If its epoxy sealed this shouldn't matter. The difference in price between exterior and marine grade will only be a fraction of the cost of your total spend. Tip - you'll probably get a better price if you buy in bulk. And get quotes from several sources, mine varied by about 50% for ply and timber.

[mainsailman]

Thanks, Joe Moore
So far I'm trying to find a workshop where to build the boat, I think I could start probably no earlier than next summer. Of course I will update about the progress.

[mainsailman]

have you got any pictures of how the cabin will look from the outside?? thats a very cool concept for the inside.

Thanks Samnz, I glad you like it, hope this concept will work. There are few pictures with external view, they're not finished yet (I'm afraid it will be a lot of question about the design modification)

[LucD]

The question is what is marine ply? It's water resistant glue, no void, no knot, water resistant treatment for the wood (and that depend on the manufacturer). You use marine ply so you don't have to seal the wood (as per manufacturer). Eventually marine ply will rot if you do not retreat or paint the wood. The void you can find in fir select one side ply is not very big, we are usually talking about a little bigger than a finish nail head, but if you go cheap grade you can fit a 25 cent in the void. There are grade in every wood and ply can be made of a lot of different wood essences and every essence have their up and down.

[mainsailman]

Thats a very nice concept,--But---

Where is the bulkhead #4, forward cross beam, crossbeam braces and compression strut, centreboard case and mast step support.

All the major forces pass through bulkhead former #4.
You can't just ignore it.
Also with the cabin accomodation so far forward, it would be very uncomfortable, as the centre of movement in the B24 is just ahead of the companionway bulkhead. I'd like Samnz take on this. He has the experience.

And where are you going to store the sails. :eek:
Front bunk space is the usual place.
Toilet is best placed under the aft end of the bunk bottom.

....

Hope this helps with Ideas. 0S7. :D

Of course it is very helpful, thanks for advices OS7!
Yes, I believe as well - the labor and love could do impossible :)
Back to concept... Instead of concentrate all of the forces in one point I've distribute them in a few different places, the mast standing on the cabin top, which is enforced by inner structure (the frame #4 and stringer from laminated plywood (it's visible on animation), I moved the crossbeams forward, just before the bunk. Aft cross beams were moved forward again to make the cockpit bigger.
For sails there's a space before forward crossbeams, hatch on the deck (not shown on pictures yet).
I will post tomorrow picture with the internal backbone structure and I hope this will help the discussion
MSm :p

[jamez]

You still have to seal the wood if you use marine ply whether its with epoxy or paint. Its like anything else, you get what you pay for. There have been many fine boats built with exterior grade ply - in fact I have a small Wharram built of it (although not D-fir, which we don't have here) that is over 25 years old. But small trimarans are particularly weight sensitive. Build them heavy and you chew up your payload allowance. To me that is the biggest reason not to use it (D-fir) for something like a B24.

[jamez]

Thanks Samnz, I glad you like it, hope this concept will work. There are few pictures with external view, they're not finished yet (I'm afraid it will be a lot of question about the design modification)

mainsailman, that is some nice graphics work you've done there. The main issue I can see is clearance under your hull step. It will be fine in flat water but in a chop I think you'll get a lot of slap/pounding. If the step spends a lot of time immersed it will add a large amount of resistance.

[redreuben]

Mainsailman, you are destroying the boat with excess weight and windage! Are you now going to expand the hulls at waterline to carry the weight?
Why not just build a Scarab?

[mainsailman]

Mainsailman, you are destroying the boat with excess weight and windage! Are you now going to expand the hulls at waterline to carry the weight?
Why not just build a Scarab?

I'm going to build B24 by original plan anyway, because I love the design, I'm just trying to learn something new. Oops, looks like I'm on wrong thread :(

[oldsailor7]

Douglas Fir --AKA Oregan, is strong and HEAVY. It rots quickly and easily in FRESH water, but not in seawater.

I built my Piver "Nugget" (1963-4) in good one side exterior grade Douglas Fir. It was glassed all over, painted on the out side,and painted on the inside.

Sailed every weekend (in Summer), and lived aboard on holidays for four years.

I was experimenting with boat coatings at that time and explored the Vinyl
paints, sucessfuly using them on the decks,in conjunction with f/glas flyscreen material as non skid.
Epoxies (except for dental work) did not exist then.

The 1/4" fir ply worked well and where painted had no problems. the bilges below the floorboards were another matter. The rainwater getting into the bilges turned the fir ply black very quickly and it was a pain to have to soak out the underfloor areas with Cuprinol every spring to prevent structural damage.

When i built my Buccaneer 24 I used a cheap mahogany 3 ply called Samba. I coated it outside in epoxy tar, painted over with white marine paint.
This was just part of the "Learning Curve".
The Epoxy tar was a nasty, sticky,heavy stuff which killed my rotary sander :eek:
It was very tough though and resisted dings and scrapes very well.

By the time I built the Buccaneer 28 I had developed Bote-Cote epoxy, and it was coated inside and out with this thin material. F/Glass tape was only used on the hull seams. This boat was built using marine mahogany ply and never had a maintenance problem.

My recomendation is --never go cheap on your boats construction materials, because you will only regret it later. This is not to say you shouldn't shop around for the best price. Buy in bulk of possible.

Just my 2c worth. OS7.

[mainsailman]

mainsailman, that is some nice graphics work you've done there. The only issue I can see is clearance under your hull step. It will be fine in flat water but in a chop I think you'll get a lot of slap/pounding. If the step spends a lot of time immersed it will add a large amount of resistance.

That was mine main concern actually. The question is what is optimal clearance?

[samfl]

Does anyone have or know of a website of someone chronicling their build?

[Samnz]

Also with the cabin accomodation so far forward, it would be very uncomfortable, as the centre of movement in the B24 is just ahead of the companionway bulkhead. I'd like Samnz take on this. He has the experience.

And where are you going to store the sails. :eek:

I wouldnt expect anyone to be sleeping while sailing, if they were it might be uncomfortable but Farriers 8.2 has foward bunk.
I guess the beauty of these boats is being able to anchor in very shallow water when cruisng so when anchored it should be calm and where the bunk is shouldnt matter.

A bigger hatch in the floats would solve the storage issue?

[Joe Moore]

Thanks, Joe Moore
So far I'm trying to find a workshop where to build the boat, I think I could start probably no earlier than next summer. Of course I will update about the progress.

There are workshops to be found - I know a guy who got an old print works near his flat in Bethnal Green and for a reasonable rent I believe. The place was huge - easily big enough to work on and store several boats, so there's definitely places out there even in the middle of London!

[LucD]

OldSailor7
You are not being fair. You are comparing painted Fir with epoxy coated marine ply. Of course the Fir won't be any good if not repainted almost every years, but if sealed in epoxy . also for the same thickness with almost any other ply, Fir is much stiffer, I might be wrong but for boat, it should be very good thing.

As a reference, there is a farmer near by that made big boxes out of 1/2" fir epoxied sealed that he use for emergency irrigation. He wanted to changed them after one year because they were always outside. That was 7 years ago and since then he never did any repair or maintain them.

But by all means, if one can afford the best, go for it.

[bruceb]

My buc- built around 1974 and used and wet sailed ever since, is built mostly of epoxy coated fir ply and has had very little rot. I repaired some places where water had entered (around the water-stays and on the decks of the floats in particular) but over all, the fir is still in good shape. I do have some rot in frame members (I don't know the kind of wood) and some thinner bulkheads and liners made of "door skin" ply. The fir makes my boat a little heavy, but it has been durable. That said, I haven't found good quality fir in my area, and if I had to pay to ship it in, a good marine grade mahogany doesn't coat any more and would make a better boat. Fir also "checks" badly and messes up any paint job. Bruce

[bruceb]

Mainsailman, I have been watching my waterline when the boat is loaded with crew, and I think you are pushing the limits on the displacement of the buc 24. I estimate my ready to sail weight around 1500 lbs, and with three crew (around 450 lbs) I think the boat is about "full". Crowther said 2000 lbs total, and I think that is about right. The 24 doesn't usually pick its center hull out of the water, and the waves would be hitting the bottom of your extentions most of the time. I don't think you would like the ride.

[bruceb]

I had my 24 in several races last weekend in around 12 -15 kts wind in fairly smooth water. I was in the starts with one good Corsair 24 mk 2 and several of our fast local sport boats- 4 melges 24s and 3 elliot 7.7s plus several others up to 30 feet. On about one mile up-wind legs the buc had a 1/4-1/2 knot speed advantage and out-pointed all the boats that were out. They all have very good sails and I was using a very old short hoist jib. I still have a lot of tuning to do, but I was very pleased with the new board and the Buc 24. Bruce

[LucD]

Here's a quiz question !
1. What is the difference between the Kraken and the Buccaneer series?
2. What model and/or seize in each series?

[oldsailor7]

Here's a quiz question !
1. What is the difference between the Kraken and the Buccaneer series?
2. What model and/or seize in each series?

Briefly:- The Buccaneer series were supposed to be Cruising Tris and the Kraken series Racing boats.

However the differences tended to be rather blurred.

The Kraken 40 for example, which set a record in the 1969 NY-Bermuda race , was also a fine fast cruiser for four people.

In Toronto Canada, a Buccaneer 33 built in F/Glass sandwich, proved to be a race winner, consistantly beating a similarly built Kraken 33.

To my knowledge that Buccaneer 33, "Robinknox" is still sailing. :D

[LucD]

Well you have to compare apple with apple.
If a Kraken 25 and a Buc 24, both built as per spec and as plans, I wonder who would win?
By the way, you had a Buc28 before, do you still have photo of your boat? I'm comparing orange and melon:D

[LucD]

OldSailor7 or any one else !

For a B24 that is never in the water unless there's someone on it:!:
What would you put on a B24, Daggerboard, Swing centerboard or swing leeboard:?: In the hull or ama:?: And to make it a little more complicated, why:?: :eek:

[oldsailor7]

OldSailor7 or any one else !
For a B24 that is never in the water unless there's someone on it:!:why:?: :eek:

Why indeed.? Given that condition, just build it as per the plans.

[LucD]

Oldsailor7
Thank you very much for all of your answers in these hard to find informations, they tremendously help me in my learning curve.

[Joe Moore]

Does anybody have any good photos of the interior of an unmodified bucc 24? Bit of an odd request I know, but really useful in getting a proper feel for sizings and usability that plans just can't give you.

The toss up at the moment is between building a small tri or just going the arguably cheaper and easier route of refitting a small mono like a corribee or pandora - unfortunately there aren't many buccaneer 24s that I know of in the UK to have a look around.

OS7, have you still got some plans lurking around? If not, put me down provisionally for the next batch :)

[LucD]

Hello Joe Moore !
This is the only one I found up to now.
I asked the same thing a few weeks ago, but no one seems interested in posting one so I had to search for one my self.
I have other photo but I'm unsure if they're from a B24.
Sorry for the quality

[LucD]

But I found these two video that you see a glimpse of the inside.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-SYOFG3Ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMvUaNs5kQo

[bruceb]

There is a lot of detail in the first video that I had not seen before. Thanks for the links. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Luc.
That first photo puzzles me since the boat is obviously at anchor or on a hard stand, otherwise the motor and life ring would be on the back of the boat and all the clobber on the bunks would be in the forepeak.
The latticey looking thing on the starboard side is a shadow and the vertical piece is the no: 5 frame.
What puzzles me is the weird box apparantly surrounding the centreboard case and the struts going out from that to the side stringer. I am afraid it looks like a bit of a Heath Robinson affair to me.

Let me tell you what I did with mine---although I am not suggesting you do the same, although it worked well for me.

I built a rectangular board box and inserted it thru the keel in the same way as shown in the plans. I stood it up vertically and made a centreboard with
parallel sides and a rectangular planform. The box was attached to the side stringers and the No:5 frame by two pieces of 1" x 12" pine, to take the athwartship stresses, and at the same time making a handy seat for the cook facing the galley, (built as shown in sheet 6 of the plans). The centreboard it'self had a cap on the top which effectively sealed the top of the case when the board was down, which it was most of the time. This made a nice little seat for two the other way round, at the fold-up table. Another seat stretched from there to the companionway on the stbd side. The folding table pivotting up from the top stringer on the port side.

If you stop the motion in the first video it gives a pretty good idea of what can be done. Thank you Bruce.

There are more ways to skin a cat, (or Tri), so it is really up to your ingenuity how you configure the inside of your B24 to suit yourself.

[Joe Moore]

Thanks for those, LucD. I'd seen the second video before now, but the first one is excellent - that guy really knows how to make a video showing bits of a boat and how they're supposed to look, rather than just clips of spray and hairy moments.

[LucD]

You guy's are most welcome.
I want to build my first boat (B24). I sailed and repaired sail boat but never build one. I never saw a real life B24, this is why I'm gathering information like a squirrel. I want to know as much as I can on the finished product before starting. Or else it would be like the little brown surprise bag we bough for 2cent, and with my luck, I almost always got crappy stuff in mine. Or a puzzle for the one that have no idea what I'm talking about. :D

[LucD]

Oldsailor7
You think the box in the middle is attached to the center board? I guess it could be, maybe some sort of cover to seal the water from coming in the cabin.
I tough it was some sort of mast support with a box in the middle to put small things or maybe, some sort holder to extend the bunks width. There seems to be a plank on each side maybe to hols it.

[LucD]

I got these photos but I'm not sure they're from a B24.

[oldsailor7]

Yes.
That is one variation of the B24.
Note the large cutout of the deck forward of the mast step.

That decking involves the structural integrity of the forward part of the hull.
We only cut an 18"(45mm) circular hole there to enable a crewmember headroom when sitting on the "Throne". :eek:

[LucD]

Oldsailor7
Do you have photo of the inside of your boat? I didn't receive the plans yet so, for now, it's a little difficult to imagine everything you're saying.The other thing's is having a wooden daggerboard true a wooden hull scare the giblets out of me. For sail boat around here it's not if you will, it's when you will run a ground or hit something.

[oldsailor7]

Oldsailor7
Do you have photo of the inside of your boat? I didn't receive the plans yet so, for now, it's a little difficult to imagine everything you're saying.The other thing's is having a wooden daggerboard true a wooden hull scare the giblets out of me. For sail boat around here it's not if you will, it's when you will run a ground or hit something.

If the board case is made properly the daggerboard will snap off before doing any damage to the boat.
Of course the daggerboard can be replaced with a swinging centerboard like the B.28 quite easily.

I ran aground on rocks in Toronto harbour and only did minor damage to the front corner of the board. Of course the B.24 is a very light boat.
I was also on board a Crowther Spindriuft 45 and snapped off a board when we hit the side of a gulley at the mouth of Port Phillip Bay near Melbourne. The board was 4" thick but snapped off cleanly without damage to the boat. It was easy to graft on a new piece of Cedar with epoxy over the next couple of days and be back to racing by the weekend.

It doesn't have to be a big deal.

[LucD]

I was thinking about a swinging centerboard but I guess it would take more space in a already small cabin.
I read on other forum (that you're also member of) mention a swing centerboard advantage to daggerboard is when racing because some can be remotely adjusted.
I don't know about the veracity of that since I'm still learning about leeway devices and their differences.
I read some book that mention different leeway devices but there's a lot of gray zone about that subject.

[LucD]

Oldsailor7
I think at one time you mentioned somewhere you have the Buc 28 building instruction? Would it be possible to get a scan or copy Please?

[trevey]

old sailor,
I'M LOOKING FOR PLANS FOR BUCCANEER 33. I HAVE A PAR4TIALLY COMPLETED 33, W/ MAST , RIGGING, SAILS, SPONSONS, BULKHEADS, WINCHES, LOTS OF SPRUCE AND STACK OF 5 PLY MARINE PLYWOOD...NO PLANS. LOST IN CATASTROPHIC EVENT . HELP FROM ANYWHERE OF ANY KIND APRECIATED. REALLY OLD SAILOR TREVEY

[oldsailor7]

old sailor,
I'M LOOKING FOR PLANS FOR BUCCANEER 33. I HAVE A PAR4TIALLY COMPLETED 33, W/ MAST , RIGGING, SAILS, SPONSONS, BULKHEADS, WINCHES, LOTS OF SPRUCE AND STACK OF 5 PLY MARINE PLYWOOD...NO PLANS. LOST IN CATASTROPHIC EVENT . HELP FROM ANYWHERE OF ANY KIND APRECIATED. REALLY OLD SAILOR TREVEY

I am as sorry as you Trevey. The Buc 33 plans no longer exist. :(

[aussiebushman]

Dan

You would be well advised not to compromise with cheap materials. West System may be more expensive but the mixing and filler methods are idiot proof and overall, the cost of the epoxy is insignificant relative to the overall building cost. Re toxcicity, if you are allergic to epoxy, the brand is irrelevant. Use disposable latex gloves and wipe all the tools, gloves and work surfaces with white vinegar after each work session (before the epoxy kicks). Also make sure that hardener does not come into contact with the resin until it is intended. This means work cleanly.

One more thing, precoating ply with epoxy is fine in principle but do not use this method where any structural joins have to made later because the secondary bond will never be as strong as a primary bond. Also, be careful of amine bloom especially if working in cold weather when the cure time will be longer. If the surfaces look waxy, scrub them down with water and a nylon scourer and dry them off between coats. This sequence might seem laborious but by working on several different components at a time, one can be curing/drying while you proceed with a different job.

If you want to see pictures of a building sequence. look at www.mainproject.info

Hope this helps

Alan

[oldsailor7]

Dan

You would be well advised not to compromise with cheap materials. West System may be more expensive but the mixing and filler methods are idiot proof and overall, the cost of the epoxy is insignificant relative to the overall building cost. Re toxcicity, if you are allergic to epoxy, the brand is irrelevant. Use disposable latex gloves and wipe all the tools, gloves and work surfaces with white vinegar after each work session (before the epoxy kicks). Also make sure that hardener does not come into contact with the resin until it is intended. This means work cleanly.

One more thing, precoating ply with epoxy is fine in principle but do not use this method where any structural joins have to made later because the secondary bond will never be as strong as a primary bond. Also, be careful of amine bloom especially if working in cold weather when the cure time will be longer. If the surfaces look waxy, scrub them down with water and a nylon scourer and dry them off between coats. This sequence might seem laborious but by working on several different components at a time, one can be curing/drying while you proceed with a different job.

If you want to see pictures of a building sequence. look at www.mainproject.info

Hope this helps

Alan

A better Aussie product is Bote-Cote epoxy.
It is water washable before the end of working time and is WAY less toxic than WEST epoxy. Also there is no coating "Bloom" and being thixotropic it does not slide off into sags and runs on vertical surfaces. Secondary bonding is 100% after only a light sanding. Available in all locations in Australia.

(And I have no connection with Boatcraft Australia in Brisbane.)

[Joe Moore]

If you're in the UK it's worth giving the guys at MCMC a call if you're in the UK - www.matrixmouldings.co.uk

I've used them for epoxy when rebuilding my Cherub - www.uk-cherub.org - as they sell Sicomin which is much better than either West or SP in my experience. It's a lot less susceptible to an uneven mix or heat.

[bruceb]

LucD, Those are the best pics I have seen of a buc 24 cabin, but I have a question- it appears that the cabin has been extended aft about 12". Do you have a cockpit pic of the same boat? My boat was converted into a "day-sailor" with a open cockpit and I intend to put some sort of a cabin back, maybe more like "Capricorn". Bruce

[LucD]

He Bruce !
These are what I have for what you are asking.
I hope they will show what you are looking for.

[bruceb]

Thanks, it does look like it has a long cabin/short cockpit. Nice looking boat. I have gotten spoiled by my 9' cockpit, so I think I would like to keep at least a four person seating area and give up some cabin. I don't think there are many "stock" Buc 24s left:) Bruce

[oldsailor7]

That cockpit is very nicely done---but it is certainly not based on the KISS principle. The structure supporting the mainsheet track has to be very strong and therefore heavy. It also severely restricts the room in the cockpit and access to the aft end of the boat.
A simple bridle eye bolted to the crossbeam tubes does the same job.

A wire from the corners of the transom, to the crossbeam can support a net, trampoline or as I did, a perforated ply decking, which opens up the whole back end of the boat and gives great protection from spray.

The B24 is such a delightfully simple boat. Why do some people feel they just
have to "Gild the lily".

[bruceb]

Does anyone know what the crossbeam structure/layup is on a Marples CC-26? (or a similar design) I keep looking at those beams as a good retrofit for the Buc 24. They are about the same size as a Buc 24's and they would make the 24 practical to trailer without very much modification of the Buc. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
Why don't you contact Marples directly.
He is a very nice guy and I am sure he could help you out.

[bruceb]

Os7, I agree that KISS is especially important on a light boat like the Buc 24, but modern high aspect mainsails do usually need a traveler to work properly. Mine is just fastened to the crossbeams and doesn't take up much space. I use a 6/1-18/1 cascade block system that seems about right, the last inch or two of trim that the 18/1 gives makes a lot of difference. In light to medium wind, I usually have the traveler a little to weather of center. I will post a pic soon. I was hoping someone knew the approximate weight of the CC-26 crossbeams, I notice that Marples never seems to give the weight of any of his designs. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Lots of sailors, mostly newbies and some cruising sailors, still use the mainsheet to move the boom out or in.
The result is a mainsail with a leech like a donkeys hind leg.

With modern rigs the boom is moved out on the traveller and the mainsheet is used to trim the sail to the right shape so that it is working all the way from top to bottom.

I said "Modern Rigs". but the same applies to any rig really. :D

[LucD]

BruceB
I also got these photo related to cockpit and rear compartment.

The last photo show a triangle tube that I was wondering what it was for???:confused:

[LucD]

I wonder what kind of gymnastic you have to do to get in the forward compartment??? I guess sleeping there is out of the question.

[bruceb]

That stainless tube is in the main cabin and is the swing out support for the bunk extension- I saw the inserts in one of the other pics. Really nice set up. In my boat, the only access to the forward area is down the forward hatch. I only use it for storage, but it "could" be used for a narrow bunk or a place for a portapotti. It is tight getting in and out but there is plenty of length. Kids might like it:) Os7 is probably correct that some of the deck should have been kept. That whole boat has a lot of good details as a cruiser for a couple. It is nice to see what can be done with the basic Buc 24. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

K.I.S.S
We used a yellow plastic bucket with a lid, under the aft end of the forward bunk. A light plastic seat folded up from over the bucket for easy removal, and emptying. Found it wasn't needed very often. When we were cruising ,if it was used, we simply emptied it at the next marina we stopped at.
Off shore it simply went over the side. (But not in a freshwater lake). :D

[DarthCluin]

I found a Buccaneer 24 for sale on Flickr. Here is the link:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/142447400_b21083af5a_o.jpg&imgrefurl=http://flickr.com/photos/68187653%40N00/142447400/&usg=__3a6WRJ7LY1FRHG3c_u7TExBYATA=&h=537&w=800&sz=121&hl=en&start=39&tbnid=8a2lqhlJZGUoOM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbuccaneer%2B24%2Btrimaran%26imgsz%3Dm%26imgtbs%3Dz%26as_st%3Dy%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21
Yoiks! That's a long url.
If you examine the pictures, you will note that the bottom is round, apparently double diagonal planked. It also looks like it has a centerboard instead of a dagger board.
When you get to the interior picture, hit Anijungas Photostream, the pick Buccaneer Trimaran.

[oldsailor7]

Yes , apart from the double diagonal planking there are some Buccaneer 28 features there.
In particular, note the pivotting centreboard is "Hidden" in the front of the cabin seat.
Also the hatch in the floats. It is of the "hasp and snap shackle type" which is o.k for rain but will not withstand immersion in bad wave conditions. In our B.28 we had one very rough night on Lake Ontario (really an inland sea), where we took a lot of water in the floats, via the leaking hatches.
In those pics the mainsail looks a little small to me. Lee Sails of Hong Kong have the complete set of B24 sails as a stock Item in their inventory. Excellent for fast cruising and very reasonably priced. Racing is entirely another matter (ask Samz).
I HATE the ugly outboard bracket. It's so easy to use the alternate spade rudder and hang a small motor on a standard lifting bracket bolted thru the transom.
The forepeak arrangement is self explanatory. Plenty of room for a loo there. :eek:

[oldsailor7]

I just took another Squiz at the pic of the B24 forward compartment.
He really hasn't taken full advantage of the space there.
He has set the floor low and thus needs the ladder for ease of entry. If he had set a bunk bottom on the next stringer above (the one under the end of the blue pipe), and taken it aft to the bulkhead, it makes a very nice bunk and the ladder becomes unnecessary.
I know, --I have slept there on my own B24. It really is a nice little cruiser for three people.
It is also easy to install a pivotting centreboard, like the B28.
The grooved semi-circular head of the CB has two lines (for Up and Down), which go up to the cabin roof in a sealed PVC tube, and turn through a double turning block set in the cabin roof immediatly aft of the mast foot. The lines lead aft to the cockpit and two jam cleats hold the lines.
The various positions of the CB can be marked on the operating lines with waterproof marker, and the board can be set forward over centre, to enable the boat to be hove to for lunch, or just a few metres back from the start line before a race. :cool:

[timtan]

Hi, I am seeking plans for the Buccaneer 24. Are they still available?

[oldsailor7]

timtan.
In a word --Yes-- but you need to rack up five posts on these forums before we can communicate by E-mail or Private Message.

PM is preferable as it is more secure.

Cheers. OS7.