Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum [Archive]

Oceannavagator

07-23-2009, 05:41 AM

Well Mr. Noodle, welcome to the thread, I already have a name suggestion for your boat. Since it takes roughly 30 sheets of something to build the boat, and since the built weight should be about1000 lbs, your going to have to limit yourself to .050 5052 aluminum. Aside from the difficulty in welding without distortion you would have to avoid any docking errors religiously. I'd call the craft "Beercan". More seriously, if you are impressed with the boat enough to build the thing you'll be much more pleased with it if you follow the advise of the guy who designed it. I think you would be happier if you found plans for something in the material of your choice. Even a small jon boat is made of .090 material. I've been a welding engineer for 35 years and would be happy to discuss this with you on another thread but for any multihull under 35 feet, I'll stick with plywood and epoxy.
Mike :)

danskram

07-23-2009, 12:26 PM

I received my plans yesterday,and read and reviewed the Drawings, instructions and Bote-Cote epoxy booklet. I've never built a boat before, so I want to be sure I'm doing it right...
The way I understand the order of construction is; 1. you first cut out the frames and hull sides, edging, gunwales and stringers. 2. put a thin layer of epoxy over all material (encapsulation,according to the epoxy booklet) . 3. Glue and nail edging on frames, and glue and nail the chines, gunwales and stringers onto hull sides.
Question, Don't they usually put the frames up first , then nail and glue the chines, stringers and gunwales to the frames??

Dan

rasorinc

07-23-2009, 01:02 PM

You need 3 coats of epoxy to encapsulate and waterproof wood. Much of it can be done before you place frames, etc. on the jig where you lay up the strigers and install plywood.

Oceannavagator

07-23-2009, 03:41 PM

Dan,
I haven't received the plans yet but I've built several boats and I believe that the buc's method is much the same as stitch and glue. The boat's sides controls the shape when it is attached to the frames. You must then level and square the boat before attaching the rest of the planking. A very simple method once you get your head around the general technique.
Mike :)

oldsailor7

07-23-2009, 06:41 PM

DAN mentioned Bote-Cote Epoxy in his last post.
Everyone pleased be advised that Bote-Cote is not available in North America, only in Australia.
If you want to find a suitable epoxy in your area just Google "Boatbuilding Epoxies", and you will find a wealth of information.

A word of warning. Do not use "Epoxy thinners" which are evaporative solvents. During the epoxy cure the "Thinner" evaporates leaving microscopic holes which allow the ingress of water vapour, defeating the whole theory of the method. If you have a difficulty in determining whether a thinner is OK, look for the words "100% solids", or a dead giveaway, like in the International Paints brochure, which states that their solvent is good for cleaning fibreglass and metal surfaces , OR FOR THINNING EPOXY. :eek:

Oceannavagator

07-23-2009, 08:02 PM

You are right as rain again OS. There are many 100% solids epoxies available in north america, but I have wondered for quite some time now if total encapsulation is the panacea that it touts to be. even if you can achieve complete coverage in the beginning, contact with docks and the inevitable grounding at 10 knots can develop cracks and scratches that will allow water in. I've had good results using borate salts in warm water applied to the enclosed area of my wooden boats and a outer surface of 2 oz cloth set in epoxy for a wear surface. With good ventilation, plywood boats have lasted many years. There is even evidence that applying the borate solution before the epoxy, in other words; under the epoxy, won't affect adhesion as long as the surface is dried first. And it is much lighter and less expensive than the epoxy.
Mike :)

danskram

07-23-2009, 08:47 PM

I just read something today about using borax and or eythylene glycol on wood to prevent rot, fungus, organisms etc from eating up your wood.
Here is the page http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/rot.html

And do any of you guys know where to buy the best/safest EPOXY to use in the USA, at a fair price?? I found MAS resin at Noah's marine for $69.00 a gallon, and the hardener for $59.00 per 1/2 gallon. West and System Three are all more expensive and I read where West is more toxic. Also At Aeromarine products they have there own brand manufactured by the same chemical companies for $79.00 for a 2 gallon kit (1 gal. resin, 1 gal. hardener).

Dan

dialdan

07-23-2009, 08:59 PM

Dan
Buccaneers are built slightly different than normal hard chine construction. Start with one float , cut out the sides to given dimensions glue stringers chine log and gunwhale to sides leaving the chine and gunwhale slightly proud of the ply (so it can be trimmed back later about 6mm) add butt blocks between stringers and chine/gunwhale .
Cut frames from ply, glue edging timber to frames,trim edging back to ply , stand both sides up on a level floor temporarily screw transom in place (or clamp) clamp stems together , now the fun part ,using the midsection frame slide it into place and twist it to spread the sides apart , do this with all the frames and when satisfied all is level and there is no twist (use your eye sighting down the length of the hull )mark the position of the notches for the stringers chines and gunwhale.
I should have mentioned the edging timber goes to the front on all frames forward of the middle frame and to the rear on all frames back ,dont forget to mark the bevel on the edging timber , this can be done with some stringer offcut. Now you can pull it all apart and encapsulate before the final assembly
Sorry if this post is a little long
Al Cooper

danskram

07-23-2009, 09:07 PM

Thanks Al, now I understand the instructions more clearly...your info will help a lot.
Dan

dialdan

07-23-2009, 09:14 PM

Dan
Glad to help, although a little rusty 30 yrs since I built mine ,best boat I have ever owned .

Ps You might consider the purchase of a staple gun it leaves one hand free
It may even work out cheaper cause you can sell when finished

danskram

07-23-2009, 09:18 PM

Al, Yeh I need a power stapler and power planer.
Dan

Oceannavagator

07-23-2009, 09:36 PM

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com

Has an economy resin. A 6 gallon kit is $312 bucks they also sell brand name stuff as well.
Mike :)

oldsailor7

07-23-2009, 10:50 PM

Al, Yeh I need a power stapler and power planer.
Dan

Modern power staplers can be rented and consist of a self contained portable unit powered by a compressed gas cartridge. A far cry from the electric powered pressure tank unit on wheels joined to the staple gun by a pressure hose. It was unwieldy I know, but far better than hand hammering in thousands of bronze ringnails as we did on my first 24' tri,--a Piver Nugget. :eek:
Electric planer is an absolute must, unless you want to develop a mighty forearm. :D

bruceb

07-23-2009, 11:33 PM

My buc 24 is 35+ years and was built in Canada almost exactly to the plans. (I think by a friend of OS) The epoxy has done a very good job of preventing rot, but I think using rot resistant marine ply would be a good idea, particularly in the bulkheads and decks. (power-ply* and others) Mine spent most of the last 25 years in the water in Maryland- warm in the summer, freezing in the winter and most of the damage has been from rain water. The cabin and decks rotted and were replaced, the bottoms of the hulls are in very good condition. I have made several repairs and a new dagger board on mine using Raka brand (from florida) epoxy and have been pleased so far. Price and service is also good. Their brand seems to work particularly well in warmer southern US weather and gives you plenty of lay-up time. I don't like to hurry:) I made a new hull bulkhead from OS's plans and it fit perfectly!!:) They are easy to work from once you see what Crowther intended. If any builder has any detail questions, just ask. I do have some ideas for changes/modifications and I am still trying to engineer a good folding system. Right now though, I am just sailing mine and enjoying it. :cool: Bruce

oldsailor7

07-25-2009, 08:50 PM

To those of you who may be inexperienced in the use of a power planer, don't set the blades to cut too deep, and practice a bit on scrap wood before attacking your pride and joy.

A good tip to speed things up is to attach a piece of wood, or alloy angle, to the platen of your planer so that it rests on an adjoining stringer when you are cutting the angle on the chines and keels. Makes a perfect chamfer each time.

Cheers. OS7. :D

Oceannavagator

07-26-2009, 04:44 AM

I do have some ideas for changes/modifications

Bruce,
If you have ideas for improvements I'd certainly like to hear them. Since I'm in the planning and procuring stages. One thing I belive I'll change is the rigging with the new non stretch rope instead of wire. It's much lighter and looks more suitable for a boat that gets derigged several times per year for trailering.
Mike :)

oldsailor7

07-26-2009, 08:44 AM

Yes Mike.

IMO that is the modern way to go.

If anyone wants to learn about it ---just Google "Dyneema".

bruceb

07-27-2009, 10:20 PM

The buc 24 sails quite well as designed, but the rig (and rigging)and the foils are primitive and can be improved with little difference in cost, at least here in the US. I priced new aluminum pipe for the cross beams, and at 600 to 800 dollars they would cost, composite beams really start to make good sense- probably lighter, stronger and maybe less money. They can also free up cabin and cockpit space, and should be easier to make fold or dismount. Are you planing your boat as a cruiser or?? I think Crowther did a really wonderful job of keeping the Buc 24 easy and inexpensive to build and still provide good all round performance. Almost every modification I have considered adds to build time, weight, and/or cost, so they have to be analyzed very carefully. Of course, I am going to keep changing mine:) Bruce

oldsailor7

07-28-2009, 12:39 AM

Bruce said --[Quote]:- "and the foils are primitive and can be improved with little difference in cost"[Quote].

Most of the home built foils I have seen can be improved at NO cost if the builder gives the proper attention to these very important appendages. It is not enough to round the leading edge and taper the trailing edge a bit, leaving the rest flat.

It is essential that boards and rudders be given a suitable foil section. Often this section is not even supplied by the designer.

The Board and Rudder have very different jobs to do. The boards job is to resist leeway at minimum drag and this it does best at an angle of attack of about 4deg, and so can have a slim supersonic section.

The rudder however has a more difficult job, as it's angle is varying all the time at much greater angles. Thus it requires a thicker section, with a rounder nose, to enable the water flow to remain attached to its surface.
With surface piercing (overhanging) rudders, like the the one shown on the stock B24, air entrainment can occur at high speed and large rudder angles. This of course causes the rudder to become ineffective, usually resulting in a wild broach. (Ask Samz).

Small boundary layer "fences" are very effective, as they generate a vortex which captures entrained air and spins it away to the rear of the rudder, safeguarding the waterflow of the rudder surface further down. On my B24 there were three fences down the rudder blade made from thin aluminium angle 1/2" wide, screwed to the rudder cheeks with countersunk head screws. Worked very well.

I remember a builder of a Buccaneer 33 who thought shaping the rudder was "unecessary" and simply band sawed his rudder blank from a piece of 2" plank and left it at that.

Rectangular section ???--Bad News. :eek:

Oceannavagator

07-28-2009, 05:46 AM

Bruce said I priced new aluminum pipe for the cross beams, and at 600 to 800 dollars they would cost
You need to shop a little more Bruce, I've got them new at less than 400 bucks locally.
As far as the foils are concerned, I can't imagine anyone not putting a NACA section on them both. I think that they need to be a little thicker and I have yet to see a daggerboard or a keel for that matter that wasn't improved with an end plate.
Rig wise, I'll do some research on what aluminum mast section that is appropriate, but for me the boat will be just a quick little boat to sail and weekend in, I'm not interested in formal racing. I'm planning to keep the boat on a trailer rigged up during sailing season and just slap it in the water on the weekend. This saves about two thirds of the slip fee and 99 % of the wear and tear on the boat. It also allows for easier maintenance.
I've read about guys who have; lengthened the hull, dropped the chine line lower aft, added 5 feet onto the stick, wanted to build the boat from aluminum, wanted to build out of foam sandwich and some even wilder stuff. At what point do you say "I bought the wrong plans?" As it is, the buc is a small, easy to build inexpensive boat that sails pretty well, I think it ought to be built pretty much like it's designed.
Mike

bruceb

08-01-2009, 02:16 PM

Mike, you are right on the pipe prices, I had checked last year and al has really dropped since then:) I had included a 6' piece of 4" od 1/4' wall to replace the wooden joint plugs- a worthwhile up-grade. Mine have gotten really loose over the years. On the mods, I don't agree. (this is a forum:rolleyes:) While the Buc 24 is a good boat as built, it is a 40 year old design that can be improved. Easily. I have been sailing mine for a year and experimenting and studying other designs, and I think that the simplicity and easy construction that Crowther intended can be kept and he would have probably made about the same changes if he designed the Buc today. Most of his later designs and almost all "modern" tri's have longer high volume floats, the buc's can be extended one "station" (just over two feet) and gain some much need forward reserve flotation. My bows dip just a little too easily for my taste, and I am used to a hobie 16. The transom extention is a little more involved, but also worth while, for a cruiser or a racer. The extra volume aft would help keep from dragging the transom with the usual oversized outboard and two adults in the cockpit and reduce the tendency to hobby-horse that the 24 is prone. Both mods together would use less than two sheets of ply total, add 80-100lbs, and about a day and a half to construction. Crowther was trying to keep the 24 to three sheets long, but today we have much better scarfing tools available and the time and material is minimal for the results. I really like my boat, but I will keep changing it as I have time. I have included some pics of the dagger board I built, it is a big change in performance, more than I expected. I have about 25hrs and $200 in it- well worth the time and money. Bruce

Oceannavagator

08-01-2009, 02:40 PM

A super job on the board Bruce. Is that a fiberglass stiffening strip in the middle of the board?
Sorry, I'm just an old welding engineer and people who change my specs just drive me crazy. I guess some of my 40 year old work could stand a little updating by now too. How about giving me some insight on the mods that you would do if you were building from scratch. And by the way, where do you sail in Atlanta?
Mike, in Richmond.

Manie B

08-01-2009, 03:29 PM

Have you guys got a web site to buy these plans?
Buccaneer24

because

The business has evolved and grown in recent years, and as a result of this, Incat Crowther are no longer able to offer sailing vessel design or technical support for sailing vessels less than 60ft. Stock plans are no longer available

http://www.incatcrowther.com/Display.php?type=design&category=Sailing

i cant seem to find it

thanks guys

danskram

08-01-2009, 04:27 PM

Manie, do a search for Buc 24 plans on this forum or go to ( 24" Buccaneer Trimaran Plans), or just send a Private Message to "oldsailor7". He has the plans, I just bought mine and they're really nice ..
Dan

bruceb

08-01-2009, 05:23 PM

Thanks Mike. I am an old boat dealer and I LIKE to change things:) I like people that pay attention to details too. Yes, that is a 1/4" x 2" fiberglass batten on each side of a board, and the light colored areas are foam. The board weighs 24lbs finished with 3 layers of glass. It is 7'5" overall with a cord of 15" and 1 1/4" thick. It could be lighter, but I was too cheap to use carbon and I had to add some filler:mad: I didn't get it quite right the first try, but it is very fair now. Bruce

oldsailor7

08-01-2009, 07:17 PM

Bruce.
That looks like one hell of a powerful daggerboard.
Does it interfere with the boom when it is fully up ??

Oceannavagator

08-01-2009, 09:59 PM

Bruce, in adding a station to the floats; would you add it in the middle and let the length run out both ends or position the whole float more forward? And exactly how would you add to the stern? I'm not sure if I'll do this but I'm now open to suggestion. I think you are right about the construction changes being easy, A person could add 2-3 inches at each frame and adjust the lines of the side accordingly. I'd like to hear your input.
Mike:)

oldsailor7

08-02-2009, 01:34 AM

Mike.
If I was adding two feet forward to the floats I would simply spread the frames six inches further apart, forward of the fwd crossbeam.
I would also add a second stringer extending 2ft past Frame 4 to take care of the extra squeezing forces on the sides of the bow. I would also extend the gunnel re-inforcement one foot fore and aft of the crossbeam attachment area, to take the extra compression from the up-force on the longer bows.

Just my HO. Cheers. OP7. :D

Manie B

08-02-2009, 02:22 AM

i dont want to buy plans, its just a very cool boat and i enjoy reading about it

it is one of those tri's that "talks" to me and more of them should be built

anyway guys keep up the good work cheers

if you got more details than this please post links

Oceannavagator

08-02-2009, 09:26 AM

bruceb

08-02-2009, 01:34 PM

I like OS7's method for extending the floats and I think it puts the volume where it would be most effective. Also very easy- we already have the plans:) The transom extension would require using some battens to find the proper bulkhead profiles but still pretty easy. I would suspend the transom about 2' further back and then fair the bottom and sides to it starting from about 3 bulkheads forward. The hull has a very definite turn up about there. Yes, OS7, my board does have to stay down about a foot (below the hull) to clear the bottom of the main. It seems worth it for performance. I seem to be 1-2 tenths of a knot faster on most points and really lift to weather with out pinching. I think the boat is faster because it is not making hardly any lee way? The lift to drag ratio must be a lot better. I am still finding the best positions for it; it can swing fore and aft as well as be partly raised. Right now, I keep it down and forward up wind and raise it to the knuckle and cant it aft reaching and running. It tapers both ways below the knuckle so the drag drops quickly as it is raised- you can feel it. I am re-building my old board for cruising- shorter is less effort and the long board draws about 6' down, very good for finding the bottom:mad: Bruce

oldsailor7

08-02-2009, 06:30 PM

[Quote] "and the long board draws about 6' down, very good for finding the bottom Bruce." [Quote].

LOL Bruce. :D
You would never get away with that in Toronto harbour---where the bottom is still littered with concrete blocks left over from the building of the outer harbour. :eek:

Yes. The improvement in the L/D ratio is very important. I am sure most sailors don't think about the tremendous increase in drag when the whole underbody of the hulll is dragged sideways, paticularly in light conditions. :o

bruceb

08-02-2009, 07:58 PM

I bet finding a piece of concrete can ruin your whole day:mad: Our lake is mostly 30'-80' deep- but there are reefs. I think I know where most of them are:confused: I considered building the board out of foam/carbon/glass to be sort of break away but the price of the carbon fiber was high and I am used to wood, epoxy and glass. I didn't trust my building/designing skills to make it strong enough but expendable. It would have been lighter by probably 8-10lbs and a lot more expensive- particularly if it broke. I did try to leave some crushable foam areas in mine. I agree on the drag, a sort of flat bottom monohull can get by with some side slip, but a tri's hulls don't like to go sideways at all. I built my board foil shaped all the way to the top so I could experiment with jibing it about 2 degrees. I have it shimmed on center right now- one thing at a time. Bruce

oldsailor7

08-02-2009, 10:00 PM

Bruce said :- "It would have been lighter by probably 8-10lbs"

Bruce--I don't think the weight of a board matters too much (unless it's made of lead---Ugh!!).
No matter how you make it in wood/epoxy, it is going to be lighter than the water it displaces. ;)

In the case of your big board ---when you have it fully up, thats another matter.

oldsailor7

08-02-2009, 11:00 PM

For those of you who may be interested, there is a very intense exchange of views regarding 22 to 30 ft multihulls in the Multihulls section of the Sailing Anarchy forums. Just click on Google. Or here:-http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=93021

Samnz

08-03-2009, 03:53 AM

Hey Its great to see new boats being built in this great design!

My boat is for sale.

Not sure how much it would cost to get it to the USA but would be a great buy for someone who doesnt have the time to build one.

http://www.multihull.org.nz/buy-and-sell/for-sale-1016.htm

I think it works out at US$12500

I am building a new bigger Tri as the Girlfriend wants space for a family down the line for cruising. Will be very hard to beat the Bucc 24 iv owned for 7 years for value for money fun racing and cruising with 2 people!

redreuben

08-03-2009, 11:19 AM

"Will be very hard to beat the Bucc 24 iv owned for 7 years"

Guess you'll be building a Bucc 28 then? Or will you go to 33?

Oceannavagator

08-03-2009, 04:30 PM

Samnz

08-03-2009, 06:56 PM

"Will be very hard to beat the Bucc 24 iv owned for 7 years"

Guess you'll be building a Bucc 28 then? Or will you go to 33?

no the main hull and beams are my own design, and the floats are tortured ply from a local designer. Will cost many times the price of my Bucc to complete.

The Bucc 24 is a brilliant boat and you cant beat it for value for money.

bruceb

08-03-2009, 07:08 PM

Mike, I think you would get about half of the needed lift aft. Maybe better , but it does not address the steep departure angle of the bottom. It will still pull a large wave up at around 6-8kts and probably be slower in light conditions. I think I would leave it stock before I did that, you just have to work at keeping the weight out of the back of the boat. OS7, my board does float- I have to tie it down, but like the new racing bathing suits, if it floats higher, it is going to be faster:) Maybe we should build our boats out of that new? poly-what?? fabric that they use. I have been working on my own personal flotation with pizza and beer- I float higher every year:D Bruce

oldsailor7

08-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Ok guys, how bout this; I don't want to lengthen the boat, but you say that it needs more bearing aft. How about starting at the #5 frame widening the boat to be about 4 inches wider at the transom by essentially cutting the frame patterns in half vertically and adding progressively wider sections in the middle to end up at the transom with a 4 inch flat (or slightly convex) bottom? The chine could be lowered slightly to straighten the run out. The floats could be lengthened up front, problem solved.
Comments? criticisms? condemnations? belly laughs?
Mike :D

MIKE.
As they say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Unless you are a very heavy bloke, and intend to hang a heavy outboard on the transom, build it as designed.

The low wetted surface and light weight makes the B24 a superberb light wind sailer, which will silently move out when other boats appear to be anchored to the water.

If dragging it's transom worries you (it shouldn't) then load all your heavy gear up in the foward bunk area.

The sail plan shown is ideal for cruising. You simply dont need a bigger sail plan unless you intend to indulge in serious racing (like Samz) :D.

The B24's waterline L/B ratio is fairly low for a multi.
If it had been designed as an all out racer it would have an L/B of 11 or 12, but would then have to be very light, with minimum load carring capacity.
The B24 has a good payload capacity, since it was designed as a simple, low cost, pocket cruiser-- It's effortless speed came as a bonus.

All I can say about the mods you suggest, is, don't do it. All you are doing is adding to the weight and wetted surface (drag), and detrimentally changing the hulls prismatic co-efficient.

Just my HO. :D

Oceannavagator

08-03-2009, 09:36 PM

Got cha OS, I like the idea of build as designed, I was just daydreaming a little. Oh yeah, didn't you say that you built yours out of 1/4 inch fir marine ply? It's writen as an option on the plans. Were the floats 1/4 also?
Mike :D

oldsailor7

08-03-2009, 10:06 PM

MIKE.
I built mine with 1/4" Samba mahogany, a very light wood. I am sure it is not available today.

1/4" Douglas Fir (Oregon) is very strong but heavy. It is OK if you don't sheath the boat with F/Glass. Three thin coats of epoxy and taped seams are all you need. Just follow the directions in the little booklet I sent you.

If you will be sailing in a fresh water area you must make sure that the fir ply is completely coated EVERYWHERE, as it rots very quickly. Even if you sail in seawater, rainwater gets into the bilge and does its rotten job.

OS7. :D

bruceb

08-03-2009, 10:46 PM

Mike, my boat is fir ply and I would not recommend it. Mine was very carefully coated and spent most of its life in salt water- that is why it has survived, but any marine mahogany would be a much better choice. Keep to the thicknesses that Crowther specified and the boat will come out light and plenty strong. Bruce

oldsailor7

08-07-2009, 08:16 PM

As an example my Buccaneer 28 was not sheathed in F/Glass.
I used 1/4" Weldwood mahogany marine ply and simply coated it with the three coats of epoxy and finished off with two coats of UV resistant polyeurethane paint.
All the seams were glassed with 2" tape of course.
Lasted very well until I sold it on leaving for Australia.

I holed the boat once (on a concrete block at the edge of Toronto harbour) and another hole where a drifting boat rammed my starboard float near the stern above the waterline, whilst on the mooring. Both damages were easily repaired using standard epoxy techniques. If the hull had been fiberglassed it would have made no difference.

Oceannavagator

08-11-2009, 09:52 AM

Ok. I'm beginning to lean towards Okoume 4 mm ply covered with 2oz surfboard cloth if for no other reason than weight savings. Okoume in 4mm weighs in at 13 pounds per sheet while fir and meranti in 1/4 are more like 20-23 lbs. I'm partial to the hard smooth surface that the light cloth gives and the weight is negligible. It may not add to the puncture resistance but it makes for a slick, hard to scratch surface that slips through the water well. Samba, I think, may be a brand name for Okoume ply but I'm not sure. I do know that there are only two major mahogany's; African and Philippine, everything else is just a sub species of one or the other. This may be an over simplification but in my experience, I think that the manufacturer has more to do with the quality of the stuff than what it is made of.
By the way, I don't know which one of you guys put the 6 minute video up on Utube of a buccaneer 24 sailing off Milwaukee, but KUDOS to whoever did it. I am inspired and anxious for a vid of your boat in stronger winds. The ice boat stuff was cool too, scary fast, and cold looking. Thanks
Mike

bruceb

08-11-2009, 05:14 PM

Mike, the 4mm is probably fine for the upper sides of the all the hulls, but from the upper chine down, I would use meranti or power ply in at least 6mm or double 4mm (or more on the bottom). 4mm does not allow for any "rounding" of the chines, which I think is important. The area is small so the added weight and cost is minimal and you will have a stronger and much more rot proof boat. I can show you where mine has had problems, and I have seen the same issues in most all wooden boats that live in southern waters. The heat and moisture eventually gets to all of them. At this time, it is easy to reduce or prevent almost all of the problems. Do it right. I do like the light glass covering, it will make a nice finish without much weight. Bruce

Oceannavagator

08-12-2009, 01:54 PM

well, now that I'm totally undecided.:confused: we are talking about 100-150 lbs aren't we? Is the weight that important? A total of say 480 sq feet of plywood 15 sheets, 4mm vs 6mm = 100 lbs difference. everything else is equal. Are we just splitting hairs here? Most people carry that much in beer, ice and fishing equipment. Wouldn't a heavy 24 be much faster than a light monohull? On the plans I see 3000 lbs for max displacement. I can't see the structure weighting more than 5 or 6 hundred lbs.
I'm swimming in indecision here.HELP!! :eek:
Mike

oldsailor7

08-12-2009, 06:32 PM

MIKE.
Don't get your knickers in a knot with indecision.
Just build it according to the designers specs.

1/4" ply all over, and 5/16" ply where specified.

It will be fine.

Cheers, OS7. :D

bruceb

08-12-2009, 11:27 PM

Mike, you can see in the photos that mine floats on its lines, and that is in fresh water. The cabin would add about 130 lbs, but in the pics at least that much in gear is on board and I have a taller, heavier mast. Mine is mostly 1/4" fir ply with some 1/2" in the cockpit floor- not lightly built but still under 1500 lbs. Don't worry too much about weight, just use good materials to spec. My floats are just under 200 lbs each (quite heavy), I estimate my main hull at 800 lbs, and the rest is in the cross tubes, mast, rig and fittings. By my estimates, using ply as I suggested, the boat should be 1200-1300 lbs as designed, and very fast:), or it could carry plenty of extra gear and crew. Bruce

Oceannavagator

08-13-2009, 07:41 AM

Thanks for the picture Bruce, I've calmed down now. Question; is your mast an extrusion or the pipe specified in the plans? If it's an extrusion, I'd like to know the dimensions as I don;t think I'll be happy with the pipe mast. I'm trying to find out what the moment of inertia is for 4 1/2 inch tube but it's not easy to find and there's too many unknowns for me to figure it out myself. I know that a multihull's quick motion requires a heavier stick, at least in the fore and aft direction, but the question is how much heavier?
Mike :)

oldsailor7

08-13-2009, 08:57 AM

Bruce.
How are you making out with your super long daggerboard?
How noticeable are the performance improvements.?
Close windedness, speed to windward etc:

You are our prime experimentor in this regard. :cool:

Cheers. Paddy. :D

bruceb

08-13-2009, 09:31 AM

Mike, my mast is the same as a Stiletto 27 catamaran complete with fittings, spreaders and rotating base and ball. 36' overall with an I of 30'. The ball (step) is about 14" lower than a Buc 24 with a cabin. I will measure the section next time I am at the boat. It was added by the second owner and seems to be a good choice. I am still experimenting with the board- I have not had it out in wind over 12 kts and I am still learning how to best use it. I am hoping for a breeze this weekend:) I will report with details. Bruce

bruceb

08-18-2009, 10:04 PM

I tried the boat in 15kts gusting a little higher and smooth water with my self-tacking jib (85%) and about 350lbs of crew. With the board down all the way the boat will lift slightly above its heading. (fun but probably slower) I experimented with raising it a few inches at a time, it seems to be best raised about 8-10 inches. My knot meter is not accurate enough to see the difference, but I was tuning against a couple of larger monohulls that were pretty steady. I have the board angled aft about half the stock amount, that seems to be a good compromise of balance and pointing with my rig. My board is 89" overall with a 15" max cord and my trunk is 29" deep. I have filled the extra trunk opening with foam. The boat is faster, points a lot higher, and responds to the rudder better. Close hauled, it accelerates more in the puffs and doesn't seem to heel as much. I will keep testing and reporting, I really like it so far. Bruce

oldsailor7

08-20-2009, 08:31 AM

Bruce.
If you can borrow a hand held GPS you can accurately determine the most efficient depth for your new board.
Paddy. :D

oldsailor7

08-23-2009, 08:45 PM

Bruce.
If---as you say, you find that the new board is most efficient raised 8-10 inches, do you intend to shorten the board by that much.? :?:

jamez

08-24-2009, 05:13 AM

If Capricorn had dug in much further here, you would have been able to scale the daggerboard off the photo.:D

oldsailor7

08-24-2009, 05:50 AM

Fantastic shot Jamez.

Just shows what the Buc24 can take.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if the floats had been longer they would have had sufficient leverage to trip the boat over. :eek:

Oceannavagator

08-24-2009, 07:00 AM

Startling picture Jamez, you must have left quite a crease in the seat cushions after that spin-out. Have you ever had the boat capsize?
Mike :eek:

jamez

08-24-2009, 03:20 PM

Yeah, that boat is built out of 4mm ply and is nearly 40 years old. Its a great pic but i can't take credit for it. Samnz (owner of the boat) posted it on our local sailing forum. These nose-dives are relatively common while racing. Its not been flipped to my knowledge.

Oceannavagator

08-24-2009, 05:41 PM

Tom.151

08-24-2009, 06:00 PM

Samnz (owner of the boat) posted it on our local sailing forum.
Calling Samnz...
I'd really like to learn the details of the crossbeam modifications on Capricorn.
Do you have any webpages showing the details?

(1) Some 30+ years ago I sailed with a friend who built his B24 to stock plans and without a doubt it was the quickest accelerating boat I had/have ever sailed on.
(2) After going on the rocks during a hurricane we hauled the boat and repaired the main hull and both amas over one weekend. Says volumes about the benefits of simple construction. BTW - no probs with the crossbeams etc from the boat going on the rocks - stoutly designed.

If I were changing anything...
I'd just plumb the bows of all three hulls (keeping the knuckle of the vaka at the waterline however) and refair the stringers to the new stem/bow. Doing it that way will make the hull shapes fatter forward and does bring the buoyancy quite a bit forward by itself.

And maybe take some of the rocker out of the main hull. If I remember correctly, I think Locke was a bit stuck with that main hull shape because of the need for getting some cruising displacement inside of the Micro Class rules.

Yes, I have the plans to build my own! And would be building to the plans if I hadn't stumbled across this damn thread and seen the Samnz crossbeams!

Cheers to all, great ideas brewing here,
TomH

jamez

08-25-2009, 04:20 AM

The crease I was speaking of is the one that happens when you clench your rear end up. I think that I may stick to the stock rig myself.
Oh yeah, someone was going to furnish me with the dimensions of his mast this past weekend. Bruce, you didn't happen to jot them down did you?
Mike :D

Hi Mike, yeah I knew what you were referring to but wasn't on the boat. To be honest the guys that sail it are so used to it popping right back up when it digs in I don't think they are fazed by it any more.

I was out on the water that day watching the days racing from a launch:eek: actually it was a large powercat so thats oK :D was a great afternoon out , heres one of my pics taken earlier in the day from leeward, you can just see the float starting to submerge.

Tom, the beams on this boat were discussed towards the end of one of the other B24 threads.

Oceannavagator

08-25-2009, 04:50 AM

Fantastic photo Jamez, it's kind of hard to tell how hard the wind was blowing because of the headland there sheltering the water but from the looks of the whitecaps it may have been 10-15 knots. That's a tremendous amount of sail he has up on that reach. That rooster-tail that he has behind him looks as though he's traveling at least 15 knots. Very exciting!
Cutting out frames as we speak.
Mike

oldsailor7

08-25-2009, 05:03 AM

Tom Henry.
Are you actually building your B24, or are you still contemplating.?

Do you still have the B28 plans. ?

jamez

08-25-2009, 05:26 AM

Samnz

08-26-2009, 06:58 AM

If Capricorn had dug in much further here, you would have been able to scale the daggerboard off the photo.:D

Actually we werent even racing when this photo was taken we were just cruising back to the mooring drinking beer...

It looks bad in the photo, really bad actually, but its miles away from actaully digging in, we dont even ease the sheets, just hold on and wait for the boat to pop up and take off :D

amazingly forgiving design!!!

top speed earlier in the day was about 18.5 knots, highly doubt there was ever over 20 knots of breeze Jamez?

bruceb

08-26-2009, 06:43 PM

OS7, I will try to quantify the new board's performance, but I am still learning to take advantage of it- and work up the confidence to push the boat as hard as Capricorn::cool: I am not cutting anything off until I am really sure I don't need it:D We have a club regatta sept 5th and I am hoping a couple of F24s come out and play. Bruce

oldsailor7

08-26-2009, 07:16 PM

Good ONYA Bruce.
Just show those F24s a thing or two. :D

redreuben

08-26-2009, 08:39 PM

Bruceb,

How do you usually fair against the F24?

bruceb

08-26-2009, 09:31 PM

Our faster F24s haven't been out since I put my buc back in the water. Our best sailing season is just starting, I hope I am able to sail to the boat's potential. Bruce

bruceb

09-06-2009, 12:16 PM

I measured my mast section- Aprox 6.25" x 3.7" "teardrop" shape. The base, mast and masthead are stock Stiletto-27 cat parts that rotate on a 2" ball. My mast is 36' overall with the forestay/shroud tang about 6.5' from the top. It has diamond stays and spreaders. I don't know the the section weight but the whole mast, halyards and 3/16" shrouds (wire) weighs around 80 lbs. The mast is quite stiff, probably more than would be required if built to the stock Buc 24 specs. I think the 3/16" shrouds (stock buc 24 size) are marginal for the mast and sail area I have and the closed barrel 5/16" turnbuckles are definitely not up to the job- I will replace it all this winter. I don't have running backstays but will probably add them for the large reacher and some redundancy. Bruce

Oceannavagator

09-06-2009, 02:37 PM

Thank's for the information Bruce. It looks as if you have approximately the same weight per foot as the stock design does.
I know that this thread is about the Buccaneer 24 but after the discussions about ama's being driven under I thought I would send this picture that I ran across showing just how far that can go. Supposedly the boat recovered from this and continued the race. I can imagine the crew needed a couple of stiff drinks to recover themselves.

Tom.151

09-06-2009, 04:13 PM

My mast is 36' overall with the forestay/shroud tang about 6.5' from the top. It has diamond stays and spreaders. I don't know the the section weight but the whole mast, halyards and 3/16" shrouds (wire) weighs around 80 lbs. I will replace it all this winter. I don't have running backstays but will probably add them for the large reacher and some redundancy. Bruce
bruceb,
here's some great info in synthetic shrouds, etc. I converted my Twiggy to SK-75 and lost a ton of weight in the rig. jmolin's rerig of his Searunner shows lots of other ways to replace metal with synthetics. I really like the soft hanks and soft halyard shackles.

Here...
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=95600
and
http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/jmolan/Alaska%20stuff/Synthetic%20Searunner/?start=all

Hope to see your Buc 24 one day,
TomH

bruceb

09-06-2009, 11:07 PM

I agree, I think synthetic is the way to go, it has reached the stage of development and price that it belongs on many boats, including most all multis. I know I will use it for my runners, and I might use it for my shrouds. I do have a lot of wire that I hope someone can use:?:, and a couple of roll swedge machines to go with it:) Bruce

oldsailor7

09-12-2009, 11:23 PM

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans available is anyone is interested. :cool:

bruceb

09-14-2009, 10:29 PM

I weighed my 30' shrouds- 3/16 with an eye and a stud- 2.5lbs each plus the 1/2 lb turnbuckle. I think I am going to use stainless again, the weight saving and price seem to favor wire. (I have plenty of wire) The cost/benefit might be better in a few more years, right now, synthetic still has durability issues, particularly in small sizes. Bruce

Samnz

09-20-2009, 07:52 PM

do you think 3/16 wire is strong enough? I have 1/4 inch wire on my forestay and sidestays, 3/16 on the topmasts, and 3/16 dynex on the mast head runners. 5mm on the diamond stays. I dont know what 5mm is in metric, in between 3/16 and 1/4...
if you sail with all crew on windward float the loads skyrocket on the rig, im not sure Crowther invisioned this!

oldsailor7

09-21-2009, 12:03 AM

...if you sail with all crew on windward float the loads skyrocket on the rig, im not sure Crowther invisioned this!

I'm sure he didn't either.
In the 1960s and '70s, NO ONE envisioned taller masts, fathead mylar mains, "prodders" with huge foresails and reaching spinnakers.
The huge sail areas you use on yor B24 would have blown Lockies mind.
(Come to think of it, we had mylar sails on our Piver Nugget in 1964. Fad didn't last tho'). LOL. :D

bruceb

09-21-2009, 10:40 AM

Samnz, I think you have the right size wire- 3/16 has a min breaking load of about 3700 lbs and a much lower working load- probably fine on the stock boat. I haven't been loading my boat up this season but I had better plan for the future and use the 1/4" wire. Do you have two sets of shrouds? ( uppers? "3/16" topmast") - I only have one set of shrouds, and diamonds on the mast. I am set up for runners but I haven't installed them yet. Thanks for reading my post, it might help keep my mast "up". Bruce

Samnz

09-22-2009, 06:40 AM

Samnz

09-22-2009, 06:43 AM

I'm sure he didn't either.
In the 1960s and '70s, NO ONE envisioned taller masts, fathead mylar mains, "prodders" with huge foresails and reaching spinnakers.
The huge sail areas you use on yor B24 would have blown Lockies mind.
(Come to think of it, we had mylar sails on our Piver Nugget in 1964. Fad didn't last tho'). LOL. :D

I have argued with many people about this, and still think only higher righting moment can add load to a boat, not more sail area. More sail area just gets the the maximum load quicker, more righting moment actually adds to the maximum load on the rig and hulls/ beams?
More righting moment gained by positioning crew and helmsman on the floats...

bruceb

09-22-2009, 10:04 AM

Samnz, That is a good picture:cool: That looks like about a 1000 lbs (no offense to your friends):) and you still have some reserve. I think you are correct, the righting moment does limit the rig loads, but with the speed tri's can hit, shock loads and momentary gust loading can probably double the rig loads. I think my mast section is stiffer than yours, I don't know if that is good or bad. It doesn't go out of column as easily, but it doesn't de-power as quickly either. How do you adjust your side stays? Bruce

LucD

09-23-2009, 09:24 PM

Do anyone has detailed photo of the inside and outside of a B24?

SteveMellet

09-27-2009, 09:19 AM

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans available is anyone is interested. :cool:

I`m interested. Please PM me or e-mail me at stevemellet(at)gmail.com

mainsailman

09-30-2009, 04:50 PM

Hi, there,
thanks to oldsailor7 I've got the drawings of buccaneer 24 couple weeks ago. Can't tell you how I'm amazed of the design! So simple, so effective, just what I've looked for. But as usual haven't got enough time and resources at present to start with the project. Hovewer, I "did some home work". I've tried to put some little comfort in this beautiful boat. For this purpose a deck was lifted and expanded a bit. The underbody remains untoched. I have changed the hull above waterline I can provide the middle section later, but here we need an opinion from specialists. For modifications I planned to use the same materials as in the specification, so the total weight shouldn't be too excessive. I've done short animation by myself just to show to my fife :-) how the boat will look inside in reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv7oIsPKPK4

If my ideas not totally crazy (I do have very little experience but lot of passion in design and building of boats) it would be interesting to hear an opinion from you guys.
It is a real pleasure to read this forum,
Cheers!

Joe Moore

09-30-2009, 05:02 PM

mainsailman (and anybody else in the london / southern england area) i'm really keen to see one of these little boats "in the flesh", do keep us updated with your progress.

the youtube animation looks quite impressive, have you got any external mockups?

Samnz

09-30-2009, 08:28 PM

oldsailor7

09-30-2009, 11:03 PM

Thats a very nice concept,--But---

Where is the bulkhead #4, forward cross beam, crossbeam braces and compression strut, centreboard case and mast step support.

All the major forces pass through bulkhead former #4.
You can't just ignore it.
Also with the cabin accomodation so far forward, it would be very uncomfortable, as the centre of movement in the B24 is just ahead of the companionway bulkhead. I'd like Samnz take on this. He has the experience.

And where are you going to store the sails. :eek:
Front bunk space is the usual place.
Toilet is best placed under the aft end of the bunk bottom.

A very nice galley can be made from 1/4" ply with a 5/16" top. Sink set in and cooktop screwed down. I used a "Port-A-Sink", which holds it's own fresh water supply, with built in pump/tap and drain. The drain goes to an overboard thru hull fitting
A simple bench seat can be constructed on the Stbd side---storage under. A flip up table opposite.
Sealed cell foam upholstery on the bunks and bench seat, with coloured canvas covers. Matching coloured curtains on the cabin windows are a nice touch.
All very inexpensive, but a labour of love --plus a little imagination too.

Hope this helps with Ideas. 0S7. :D

samfl

10-02-2009, 12:49 AM

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans available is anyone is interested. :cool:

I am definitely interested if you still have the set of plans available. Please contact me at sssail55@hotmail.com.

samfl

10-02-2009, 12:30 PM

There seems to be several types of marine ply available here in my area; okoume and meranti for imported types and fir for domestic. The okoume is made to BS1088 and the meranti is available as BS1088 and BS6566. Any recommendations on which is better for the Buc 24 construction?

samfl

10-02-2009, 12:35 PM

Another question on materials. In some building notes on the Buc 24 i found online (I forget where), there is reference to some of the dimensional lumber as "Oregon". I'm not familiar with that term as it is not used locally here in Florida. Can anyone tell me if this is a reference to pine, fir, cedar etc. or what type of lumber available here in the US is a suitable substitute?

samfl

10-02-2009, 12:49 PM

I like the beams that Samnz designed for Capricorn, but in my area, I'd still like to be able to dismount the amas to trailer the boat and be able to store it on the hard for hurricane season, having already lost one boat a few years ago to storms. Are there any designs for similar beams that are still dismountable?

samfl

10-02-2009, 12:58 PM

Will extending the floats and transom tend to reduce the hobby horsing that I have seen some dicussing in this and other threads? The inlets here can get some pretty fair sized waves even when calm outside with enough onshore wind wind and an outgoing tide. I used to have a 23' monhull (trailerable) that was difficult to get out with under such conditions because the outboard prop kept coming out of the water due to the hobby horsing over waves if I had to go out dead into the wind.

LucD

10-02-2009, 01:25 PM

I think that if you are to seal that plywood in and out in epoxy, there is no need to spend the extra money on marine plywood, but you do need a good quality ply. Grade Fir select one side is good. A good marine ply is more than twice the price than Fir. There are many different kind of wood but the application, installation and characteristic would be different.
Well, this is my 2 cent.

samfl

10-02-2009, 05:50 PM

LucD, You suggest grade fir select one side as a possible alternative to marine ply. How does this compare to marine ply in terms of strength, weight and the ability to get a fair curve when bending. I thought the main advantage to the marine ply if the quality of the veneers used (no or less voids, patches etc.) a more balanced construction with thicker outer veneers, and that fir ply is generally heavier than okoume or meranti (although they may not have the same strength as the fir).

jamez

10-02-2009, 05:52 PM

In a boat like the Bucc 24 its better to keep it as light as possible. Occume and meranti are both lighter than D-Fir. Occume is the lightest and generally the most expensive. Although some say that Occume is less durable than Meranti, If its epoxy sealed this shouldn't matter. The difference in price between exterior and marine grade will only be a fraction of the cost of your total spend. Tip - you'll probably get a better price if you buy in bulk. And get quotes from several sources, mine varied by about 50% for ply and timber.

mainsailman

10-02-2009, 06:53 PM

Thanks, Joe Moore
So far I'm trying to find a workshop where to build the boat, I think I could start probably no earlier than next summer. Of course I will update about the progress.

mainsailman

10-02-2009, 07:13 PM

have you got any pictures of how the cabin will look from the outside?? thats a very cool concept for the inside.

Thanks Samnz, I glad you like it, hope this concept will work. There are few pictures with external view, they're not finished yet (I'm afraid it will be a lot of question about the design modification)

LucD

10-02-2009, 07:21 PM

The question is what is marine ply? It's water resistant glue, no void, no knot, water resistant treatment for the wood (and that depend on the manufacturer). You use marine ply so you don't have to seal the wood (as per manufacturer). Eventually marine ply will rot if you do not retreat or paint the wood. The void you can find in fir select one side ply is not very big, we are usually talking about a little bigger than a finish nail head, but if you go cheap grade you can fit a 25 cent in the void. There are grade in every wood and ply can be made of a lot of different wood essences and every essence have their up and down.

mainsailman

10-02-2009, 07:54 PM

Thats a very nice concept,--But---

Where is the bulkhead #4, forward cross beam, crossbeam braces and compression strut, centreboard case and mast step support.

All the major forces pass through bulkhead former #4.
You can't just ignore it.
Also with the cabin accomodation so far forward, it would be very uncomfortable, as the centre of movement in the B24 is just ahead of the companionway bulkhead. I'd like Samnz take on this. He has the experience.

And where are you going to store the sails. :eek:
Front bunk space is the usual place.
Toilet is best placed under the aft end of the bunk bottom.

....

Hope this helps with Ideas. 0S7. :D

Of course it is very helpful, thanks for advices OS7!
Yes, I believe as well - the labor and love could do impossible :)
Back to concept... Instead of concentrate all of the forces in one point I've distribute them in a few different places, the mast standing on the cabin top, which is enforced by inner structure (the frame #4 and stringer from laminated plywood (it's visible on animation), I moved the crossbeams forward, just before the bunk. Aft cross beams were moved forward again to make the cockpit bigger.
For sails there's a space before forward crossbeams, hatch on the deck (not shown on pictures yet).
I will post tomorrow picture with the internal backbone structure and I hope this will help the discussion
MSm :p

jamez

10-02-2009, 07:56 PM

You still have to seal the wood if you use marine ply whether its with epoxy or paint. Its like anything else, you get what you pay for. There have been many fine boats built with exterior grade ply - in fact I have a small Wharram built of it (although not D-fir, which we don't have here) that is over 25 years old. But small trimarans are particularly weight sensitive. Build them heavy and you chew up your payload allowance. To me that is the biggest reason not to use it (D-fir) for something like a B24.

jamez

10-02-2009, 08:01 PM

Thanks Samnz, I glad you like it, hope this concept will work. There are few pictures with external view, they're not finished yet (I'm afraid it will be a lot of question about the design modification)

mainsailman, that is some nice graphics work you've done there. The main issue I can see is clearance under your hull step. It will be fine in flat water but in a chop I think you'll get a lot of slap/pounding. If the step spends a lot of time immersed it will add a large amount of resistance.

redreuben

10-02-2009, 08:03 PM

Mainsailman, you are destroying the boat with excess weight and windage! Are you now going to expand the hulls at waterline to carry the weight?
Why not just build a Scarab?

mainsailman

10-02-2009, 08:16 PM

Mainsailman, you are destroying the boat with excess weight and windage! Are you now going to expand the hulls at waterline to carry the weight?
Why not just build a Scarab?

I'm going to build B24 by original plan anyway, because I love the design, I'm just trying to learn something new. Oops, looks like I'm on wrong thread :(

oldsailor7

10-02-2009, 08:20 PM

Douglas Fir --AKA Oregan, is strong and HEAVY. It rots quickly and easily in FRESH water, but not in seawater.

I built my Piver "Nugget" (1963-4) in good one side exterior grade Douglas Fir. It was glassed all over, painted on the out side,and painted on the inside.

Sailed every weekend (in Summer), and lived aboard on holidays for four years.

I was experimenting with boat coatings at that time and explored the Vinyl
paints, sucessfuly using them on the decks,in conjunction with f/glas flyscreen material as non skid.
Epoxies (except for dental work) did not exist then.

The 1/4" fir ply worked well and where painted had no problems. the bilges below the floorboards were another matter. The rainwater getting into the bilges turned the fir ply black very quickly and it was a pain to have to soak out the underfloor areas with Cuprinol every spring to prevent structural damage.

When i built my Buccaneer 24 I used a cheap mahogany 3 ply called Samba. I coated it outside in epoxy tar, painted over with white marine paint.
This was just part of the "Learning Curve".
The Epoxy tar was a nasty, sticky,heavy stuff which killed my rotary sander :eek:
It was very tough though and resisted dings and scrapes very well.

By the time I built the Buccaneer 28 I had developed Bote-Cote epoxy, and it was coated inside and out with this thin material. F/Glass tape was only used on the hull seams. This boat was built using marine mahogany ply and never had a maintenance problem.

My recomendation is --never go cheap on your boats construction materials, because you will only regret it later. This is not to say you shouldn't shop around for the best price. Buy in bulk of possible.

Just my 2c worth. OS7.

mainsailman

10-02-2009, 08:20 PM

mainsailman, that is some nice graphics work you've done there. The only issue I can see is clearance under your hull step. It will be fine in flat water but in a chop I think you'll get a lot of slap/pounding. If the step spends a lot of time immersed it will add a large amount of resistance.

That was mine main concern actually. The question is what is optimal clearance?

samfl

10-03-2009, 12:32 AM

Does anyone have or know of a website of someone chronicling their build?

Samnz

10-03-2009, 12:53 AM

Also with the cabin accomodation so far forward, it would be very uncomfortable, as the centre of movement in the B24 is just ahead of the companionway bulkhead. I'd like Samnz take on this. He has the experience.

And where are you going to store the sails. :eek:

I wouldnt expect anyone to be sleeping while sailing, if they were it might be uncomfortable but Farriers 8.2 has foward bunk.
I guess the beauty of these boats is being able to anchor in very shallow water when cruisng so when anchored it should be calm and where the bunk is shouldnt matter.

A bigger hatch in the floats would solve the storage issue?

Joe Moore

10-03-2009, 11:18 AM

Thanks, Joe Moore
So far I'm trying to find a workshop where to build the boat, I think I could start probably no earlier than next summer. Of course I will update about the progress.

There are workshops to be found - I know a guy who got an old print works near his flat in Bethnal Green and for a reasonable rent I believe. The place was huge - easily big enough to work on and store several boats, so there's definitely places out there even in the middle of London!

LucD

10-03-2009, 12:57 PM

OldSailor7
You are not being fair. You are comparing painted Fir with epoxy coated marine ply. Of course the Fir won't be any good if not repainted almost every years, but if sealed in epoxy . also for the same thickness with almost any other ply, Fir is much stiffer, I might be wrong but for boat, it should be very good thing.

As a reference, there is a farmer near by that made big boxes out of 1/2" fir epoxied sealed that he use for emergency irrigation. He wanted to changed them after one year because they were always outside. That was 7 years ago and since then he never did any repair or maintain them.

But by all means, if one can afford the best, go for it.

bruceb

10-06-2009, 01:22 PM

My buc- built around 1974 and used and wet sailed ever since, is built mostly of epoxy coated fir ply and has had very little rot. I repaired some places where water had entered (around the water-stays and on the decks of the floats in particular) but over all, the fir is still in good shape. I do have some rot in frame members (I don't know the kind of wood) and some thinner bulkheads and liners made of "door skin" ply. The fir makes my boat a little heavy, but it has been durable. That said, I haven't found good quality fir in my area, and if I had to pay to ship it in, a good marine grade mahogany doesn't coat any more and would make a better boat. Fir also "checks" badly and messes up any paint job. Bruce

bruceb

10-06-2009, 01:33 PM

Mainsailman, I have been watching my waterline when the boat is loaded with crew, and I think you are pushing the limits on the displacement of the buc 24. I estimate my ready to sail weight around 1500 lbs, and with three crew (around 450 lbs) I think the boat is about "full". Crowther said 2000 lbs total, and I think that is about right. The 24 doesn't usually pick its center hull out of the water, and the waves would be hitting the bottom of your extentions most of the time. I don't think you would like the ride.

bruceb

10-06-2009, 01:51 PM

I had my 24 in several races last weekend in around 12 -15 kts wind in fairly smooth water. I was in the starts with one good Corsair 24 mk 2 and several of our fast local sport boats- 4 melges 24s and 3 elliot 7.7s plus several others up to 30 feet. On about one mile up-wind legs the buc had a 1/4-1/2 knot speed advantage and out-pointed all the boats that were out. They all have very good sails and I was using a very old short hoist jib. I still have a lot of tuning to do, but I was very pleased with the new board and the Buc 24. Bruce

LucD

10-14-2009, 12:50 PM

Here's a quiz question !
1. What is the difference between the Kraken and the Buccaneer series?
2. What model and/or seize in each series?

oldsailor7

10-14-2009, 05:09 PM

Here's a quiz question !
1. What is the difference between the Kraken and the Buccaneer series?
2. What model and/or seize in each series?

Briefly:- The Buccaneer series were supposed to be Cruising Tris and the Kraken series Racing boats.

However the differences tended to be rather blurred.

The Kraken 40 for example, which set a record in the 1969 NY-Bermuda race , was also a fine fast cruiser for four people.

In Toronto Canada, a Buccaneer 33 built in F/Glass sandwich, proved to be a race winner, consistantly beating a similarly built Kraken 33.

To my knowledge that Buccaneer 33, "Robinknox" is still sailing. :D

LucD

10-14-2009, 06:56 PM

Well you have to compare apple with apple.
If a Kraken 25 and a Buc 24, both built as per spec and as plans, I wonder who would win?
By the way, you had a Buc28 before, do you still have photo of your boat? I'm comparing orange and melon:D

LucD

10-14-2009, 07:03 PM

OldSailor7 or any one else !

For a B24 that is never in the water unless there's someone on it:!:
What would you put on a B24, Daggerboard, Swing centerboard or swing leeboard:?: In the hull or ama:?: And to make it a little more complicated, why:?: :eek:

oldsailor7

10-14-2009, 07:13 PM

OldSailor7 or any one else !
For a B24 that is never in the water unless there's someone on it:!:why:?: :eek:

Why indeed.? Given that condition, just build it as per the plans.

LucD

10-14-2009, 10:26 PM

Oldsailor7
Thank you very much for all of your answers in these hard to find informations, they tremendously help me in my learning curve.

Joe Moore

10-15-2009, 06:54 PM

Does anybody have any good photos of the interior of an unmodified bucc 24? Bit of an odd request I know, but really useful in getting a proper feel for sizings and usability that plans just can't give you.

The toss up at the moment is between building a small tri or just going the arguably cheaper and easier route of refitting a small mono like a corribee or pandora - unfortunately there aren't many buccaneer 24s that I know of in the UK to have a look around.

OS7, have you still got some plans lurking around? If not, put me down provisionally for the next batch :)

LucD

10-15-2009, 08:17 PM

Hello Joe Moore !
This is the only one I found up to now.
I asked the same thing a few weeks ago, but no one seems interested in posting one so I had to search for one my self.
I have other photo but I'm unsure if they're from a B24.
Sorry for the quality

LucD

10-15-2009, 08:28 PM

But I found these two video that you see a glimpse of the inside.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-SYOFG3Ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMvUaNs5kQo

bruceb

10-15-2009, 09:42 PM

There is a lot of detail in the first video that I had not seen before. Thanks for the links. Bruce

oldsailor7

10-16-2009, 12:50 AM

Luc.
That first photo puzzles me since the boat is obviously at anchor or on a hard stand, otherwise the motor and life ring would be on the back of the boat and all the clobber on the bunks would be in the forepeak.
The latticey looking thing on the starboard side is a shadow and the vertical piece is the no: 5 frame.
What puzzles me is the weird box apparantly surrounding the centreboard case and the struts going out from that to the side stringer. I am afraid it looks like a bit of a Heath Robinson affair to me.

Let me tell you what I did with mine---although I am not suggesting you do the same, although it worked well for me.

I built a rectangular board box and inserted it thru the keel in the same way as shown in the plans. I stood it up vertically and made a centreboard with
parallel sides and a rectangular planform. The box was attached to the side stringers and the No:5 frame by two pieces of 1" x 12" pine, to take the athwartship stresses, and at the same time making a handy seat for the cook facing the galley, (built as shown in sheet 6 of the plans). The centreboard it'self had a cap on the top which effectively sealed the top of the case when the board was down, which it was most of the time. This made a nice little seat for two the other way round, at the fold-up table. Another seat stretched from there to the companionway on the stbd side. The folding table pivotting up from the top stringer on the port side.

If you stop the motion in the first video it gives a pretty good idea of what can be done. Thank you Bruce.

There are more ways to skin a cat, (or Tri), so it is really up to your ingenuity how you configure the inside of your B24 to suit yourself.

Joe Moore

10-16-2009, 03:16 AM

Thanks for those, LucD. I'd seen the second video before now, but the first one is excellent - that guy really knows how to make a video showing bits of a boat and how they're supposed to look, rather than just clips of spray and hairy moments.

LucD

10-16-2009, 06:31 AM

You guy's are most welcome.
I want to build my first boat (B24). I sailed and repaired sail boat but never build one. I never saw a real life B24, this is why I'm gathering information like a squirrel. I want to know as much as I can on the finished product before starting. Or else it would be like the little brown surprise bag we bough for 2cent, and with my luck, I almost always got crappy stuff in mine. Or a puzzle for the one that have no idea what I'm talking about. :D

LucD

10-16-2009, 06:47 AM

Oldsailor7
You think the box in the middle is attached to the center board? I guess it could be, maybe some sort of cover to seal the water from coming in the cabin.
I tough it was some sort of mast support with a box in the middle to put small things or maybe, some sort holder to extend the bunks width. There seems to be a plank on each side maybe to hols it.

LucD

10-16-2009, 06:54 AM

I got these photos but I'm not sure they're from a B24.

oldsailor7

10-16-2009, 07:28 AM

Yes.
That is one variation of the B24.
Note the large cutout of the deck forward of the mast step.

That decking involves the structural integrity of the forward part of the hull.
We only cut an 18"(45mm) circular hole there to enable a crewmember headroom when sitting on the "Throne". :eek:

LucD

10-16-2009, 07:33 AM

oldsailor7

10-16-2009, 07:55 AM

Oldsailor7
Do you have photo of the inside of your boat? I didn't receive the plans yet so, for now, it's a little difficult to imagine everything you're saying.The other thing's is having a wooden daggerboard true a wooden hull scare the giblets out of me. For sail boat around here it's not if you will, it's when you will run a ground or hit something.

If the board case is made properly the daggerboard will snap off before doing any damage to the boat.
Of course the daggerboard can be replaced with a swinging centerboard like the B.28 quite easily.

I ran aground on rocks in Toronto harbour and only did minor damage to the front corner of the board. Of course the B.24 is a very light boat.
I was also on board a Crowther Spindriuft 45 and snapped off a board when we hit the side of a gulley at the mouth of Port Phillip Bay near Melbourne. The board was 4" thick but snapped off cleanly without damage to the boat. It was easy to graft on a new piece of Cedar with epoxy over the next couple of days and be back to racing by the weekend.

It doesn't have to be a big deal.

LucD

10-16-2009, 11:41 AM

I was thinking about a swinging centerboard but I guess it would take more space in a already small cabin.
I read on other forum (that you're also member of) mention a swing centerboard advantage to daggerboard is when racing because some can be remotely adjusted.
I don't know about the veracity of that since I'm still learning about leeway devices and their differences.
I read some book that mention different leeway devices but there's a lot of gray zone about that subject.

LucD

10-16-2009, 12:48 PM

Oldsailor7
I think at one time you mentioned somewhere you have the Buc 28 building instruction? Would it be possible to get a scan or copy Please?

trevey

10-16-2009, 03:47 PM

old sailor,
I'M LOOKING FOR PLANS FOR BUCCANEER 33. I HAVE A PAR4TIALLY COMPLETED 33, W/ MAST , RIGGING, SAILS, SPONSONS, BULKHEADS, WINCHES, LOTS OF SPRUCE AND STACK OF 5 PLY MARINE PLYWOOD...NO PLANS. LOST IN CATASTROPHIC EVENT . HELP FROM ANYWHERE OF ANY KIND APRECIATED. REALLY OLD SAILOR TREVEY

oldsailor7

10-16-2009, 06:05 PM

aussiebushman

10-18-2009, 08:27 PM

Dan

You would be well advised not to compromise with cheap materials. West System may be more expensive but the mixing and filler methods are idiot proof and overall, the cost of the epoxy is insignificant relative to the overall building cost. Re toxcicity, if you are allergic to epoxy, the brand is irrelevant. Use disposable latex gloves and wipe all the tools, gloves and work surfaces with white vinegar after each work session (before the epoxy kicks). Also make sure that hardener does not come into contact with the resin until it is intended. This means work cleanly.

One more thing, precoating ply with epoxy is fine in principle but do not use this method where any structural joins have to made later because the secondary bond will never be as strong as a primary bond. Also, be careful of amine bloom especially if working in cold weather when the cure time will be longer. If the surfaces look waxy, scrub them down with water and a nylon scourer and dry them off between coats. This sequence might seem laborious but by working on several different components at a time, one can be curing/drying while you proceed with a different job.

If you want to see pictures of a building sequence. look at www.mainproject.info

Hope this helps

Alan

oldsailor7

10-18-2009, 09:18 PM

Joe Moore

10-19-2009, 03:17 AM

If you're in the UK it's worth giving the guys at MCMC a call if you're in the UK - www.matrixmouldings.co.uk

I've used them for epoxy when rebuilding my Cherub - www.uk-cherub.org - as they sell Sicomin which is much better than either West or SP in my experience. It's a lot less susceptible to an uneven mix or heat.

bruceb

10-20-2009, 12:16 PM

LucD, Those are the best pics I have seen of a buc 24 cabin, but I have a question- it appears that the cabin has been extended aft about 12". Do you have a cockpit pic of the same boat? My boat was converted into a "day-sailor" with a open cockpit and I intend to put some sort of a cabin back, maybe more like "Capricorn". Bruce

LucD

10-20-2009, 03:25 PM

He Bruce !
These are what I have for what you are asking.
I hope they will show what you are looking for.

bruceb

10-20-2009, 04:23 PM

Thanks, it does look like it has a long cabin/short cockpit. Nice looking boat. I have gotten spoiled by my 9' cockpit, so I think I would like to keep at least a four person seating area and give up some cabin. I don't think there are many "stock" Buc 24s left:) Bruce

oldsailor7

10-20-2009, 04:36 PM

That cockpit is very nicely done---but it is certainly not based on the KISS principle. The structure supporting the mainsheet track has to be very strong and therefore heavy. It also severely restricts the room in the cockpit and access to the aft end of the boat.
A simple bridle eye bolted to the crossbeam tubes does the same job.

A wire from the corners of the transom, to the crossbeam can support a net, trampoline or as I did, a perforated ply decking, which opens up the whole back end of the boat and gives great protection from spray.

The B24 is such a delightfully simple boat. Why do some people feel they just
have to "Gild the lily".

bruceb

10-20-2009, 04:42 PM

Does anyone know what the crossbeam structure/layup is on a Marples CC-26? (or a similar design) I keep looking at those beams as a good retrofit for the Buc 24. They are about the same size as a Buc 24's and they would make the 24 practical to trailer without very much modification of the Buc. Bruce

oldsailor7

10-20-2009, 05:17 PM

Bruce.
Why don't you contact Marples directly.
He is a very nice guy and I am sure he could help you out.

bruceb

10-20-2009, 07:15 PM

Os7, I agree that KISS is especially important on a light boat like the Buc 24, but modern high aspect mainsails do usually need a traveler to work properly. Mine is just fastened to the crossbeams and doesn't take up much space. I use a 6/1-18/1 cascade block system that seems about right, the last inch or two of trim that the 18/1 gives makes a lot of difference. In light to medium wind, I usually have the traveler a little to weather of center. I will post a pic soon. I was hoping someone knew the approximate weight of the CC-26 crossbeams, I notice that Marples never seems to give the weight of any of his designs. Bruce

oldsailor7

10-20-2009, 09:02 PM

Lots of sailors, mostly newbies and some cruising sailors, still use the mainsheet to move the boom out or in.
The result is a mainsail with a leech like a donkeys hind leg.

With modern rigs the boom is moved out on the traveller and the mainsheet is used to trim the sail to the right shape so that it is working all the way from top to bottom.

I said "Modern Rigs". but the same applies to any rig really. :D

LucD

10-21-2009, 07:23 AM

BruceB
I also got these photo related to cockpit and rear compartment.

The last photo show a triangle tube that I was wondering what it was for???:confused:

LucD

10-21-2009, 07:29 AM

I wonder what kind of gymnastic you have to do to get in the forward compartment??? I guess sleeping there is out of the question.

bruceb

10-21-2009, 10:41 AM

That stainless tube is in the main cabin and is the swing out support for the bunk extension- I saw the inserts in one of the other pics. Really nice set up. In my boat, the only access to the forward area is down the forward hatch. I only use it for storage, but it "could" be used for a narrow bunk or a place for a portapotti. It is tight getting in and out but there is plenty of length. Kids might like it:) Os7 is probably correct that some of the deck should have been kept. That whole boat has a lot of good details as a cruiser for a couple. It is nice to see what can be done with the basic Buc 24. Bruce

oldsailor7

10-21-2009, 06:39 PM

K.I.S.S
We used a yellow plastic bucket with a lid, under the aft end of the forward bunk. A light plastic seat folded up from over the bucket for easy removal, and emptying. Found it wasn't needed very often. When we were cruising ,if it was used, we simply emptied it at the next marina we stopped at.
Off shore it simply went over the side. (But not in a freshwater lake). :D

DarthCluin

10-22-2009, 12:35 AM

I found a Buccaneer 24 for sale on Flickr. Here is the link:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/142447400_b21083af5a_o.jpg&imgrefurl=http://flickr.com/photos/68187653%40N00/142447400/&usg=__3a6WRJ7LY1FRHG3c_u7TExBYATA=&h=537&w=800&sz=121&hl=en&start=39&tbnid=8a2lqhlJZGUoOM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbuccaneer%2B24%2Btrimaran%26imgsz%3Dm%26imgtbs%3Dz%26as_st%3Dy%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21
Yoiks! That's a long url.
If you examine the pictures, you will note that the bottom is round, apparently double diagonal planked. It also looks like it has a centerboard instead of a dagger board.
When you get to the interior picture, hit Anijungas Photostream, the pick Buccaneer Trimaran.

oldsailor7

10-22-2009, 02:02 AM

Yes , apart from the double diagonal planking there are some Buccaneer 28 features there.
In particular, note the pivotting centreboard is "Hidden" in the front of the cabin seat.
Also the hatch in the floats. It is of the "hasp and snap shackle type" which is o.k for rain but will not withstand immersion in bad wave conditions. In our B.28 we had one very rough night on Lake Ontario (really an inland sea), where we took a lot of water in the floats, via the leaking hatches.
In those pics the mainsail looks a little small to me. Lee Sails of Hong Kong have the complete set of B24 sails as a stock Item in their inventory. Excellent for fast cruising and very reasonably priced. Racing is entirely another matter (ask Samz).
I HATE the ugly outboard bracket. It's so easy to use the alternate spade rudder and hang a small motor on a standard lifting bracket bolted thru the transom.
The forepeak arrangement is self explanatory. Plenty of room for a loo there. :eek:

oldsailor7

11-15-2009, 09:52 PM

I just took another Squiz at the pic of the B24 forward compartment.
He really hasn't taken full advantage of the space there.
He has set the floor low and thus needs the ladder for ease of entry. If he had set a bunk bottom on the next stringer above (the one under the end of the blue pipe), and taken it aft to the bulkhead, it makes a very nice bunk and the ladder becomes unnecessary.
I know, --I have slept there on my own B24. It really is a nice little cruiser for three people.
It is also easy to install a pivotting centreboard, like the B28.
The grooved semi-circular head of the CB has two lines (for Up and Down), which go up to the cabin roof in a sealed PVC tube, and turn through a double turning block set in the cabin roof immediatly aft of the mast foot. The lines lead aft to the cockpit and two jam cleats hold the lines.
The various positions of the CB can be marked on the operating lines with waterproof marker, and the board can be set forward over centre, to enable the boat to be hove to for lunch, or just a few metres back from the start line before a race. :cool:

timtan

11-18-2009, 05:20 AM

Hi, I am seeking plans for the Buccaneer 24. Are they still available?

oldsailor7

11-18-2009, 05:51 AM

timtan.
In a word --Yes-- but you need to rack up five posts on these forums before we can communicate by E-mail or Private Message.

PM is preferable as it is more secure.

Cheers. OS7.

oldsailor7

12-04-2009, 06:15 AM

For Pics of a Buccaneer 24 with comments go to the Buccaneer 24 thread post #224. :D

oldsailor7

12-06-2009, 06:29 PM

The crease I was speaking of is the one that happens when you clench your rear end up. I think that I may stick to the stock rig myself. Mike :D

I actually raced mine with the stock rig, -----but that was 35 yrs ago.
Competition is much tougher today.

You can always leave the mast and boom "as is", but go for a Fathead sail.
That and a nice flat cut assymetric spinnaker. :eek:

bruceb

12-22-2009, 09:25 PM

This is a Stiletto 27 mast step on my Buc 24, and some other detail pics. The 27 was a very advanced production cat here in the USA in the mid 80's, and I think some of the parts are still available from the class owners association. It is a rugged, well tested system and it fits the Buc 24 nicely. The mainsheet system is a cascaded 6-1,3-1, the 18-1 fine tune is very useful upwind. My main is about 240 sq feet with a medium "fat head" profile. Bruce

oldsailor7

12-22-2009, 11:14 PM

Bruce.
That really is a very nice looking day sailer B24.
Have you sleeved the Portside front crossbeam joint yet?

bruceb

12-23-2009, 09:49 AM

Thanks OS7. It has been a fun day sailor, but it might get a cabin this winter, certainly sometime this coming year. I have some coastal trips planned that will be much more comfortable with some more storage and weather protection. The open Buc is fairly dry- until you get over about 12 kts, and then it has a different personality:) I have only sleeved the starboard forward crossbeam, and I haven't "glued" it. I have the pipe to do the others when I take it out for the winter, they were not nearly as loose. I decided to get a few more races in so it is still in the water. Too much fun to quit yet:D Bruce

jmolan

12-24-2009, 07:25 PM

Plans for sale on EBAY, just popped up. Buccaneer 24

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300380601066&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

oldsailor7

12-29-2009, 10:09 PM

Yes that E-Bay ad is from sjsmail05.

I asked him if it was a "One Off" and this was his reply.

"I have 2 left of 5 sets so it is the next to last and then no more."
- sjsmail05

redreuben

12-29-2009, 10:42 PM

oldsailor,

Did he get plans from you and copy them for a buck?

oldsailor7

12-30-2009, 12:52 AM

oldsailor,

Did he get plans from you and copy them for a buck?

He might well have done, but I wouldn't know it. His E-bay name doesn't ring a bell for me.

On the other hand he may have an original set of plans and simply copied them.

I am amused at the price undercutting. :P

As Jimmy "Schnozzola" Durante famously said-"Everyone wants to get in on the act". LOl.

marker

12-31-2009, 02:53 AM

Oldsailor
Do you still have any plans available ?
Mark

oldsailor7

12-31-2009, 10:12 AM

Oldsailor
Do you still have any plans available ?
Mark

Yes I do. :D

marker

01-01-2010, 01:32 AM

Oldsailor
I'll be in touch.
Mark

oldsailor7

01-01-2010, 06:06 AM

Mark.
This is really "Off Topic" on this thread, so if you want to contact me please send me a PM by clicking on my avatar.
Thanks. OS7.

Joe Moore

01-01-2010, 02:12 PM

Happy new year everyone! This being the builder's forum I thought I'd ask how people were getting on with their projects. Are there any underway at the moment or just plenty of pipedreams?

oldsailor7

01-01-2010, 04:05 PM

oldsailor,

Did he get plans from you and copy them for a buck?

I asked him that and this was his reply.

"These plans came from an old warehouse in Florida that once housed a builder. There were many others including one set of B33 plans that I will be keeping for my self. I was the 3rd guy to get to look thorough them so no telling what I missed out on."
- sjsmail05

Joe Moore

01-03-2010, 06:20 AM

Imperial to metric ponderings here guys. Plans state the skins are 3/16" ply which is roughly 4.75mm. In the UK the widely available ply sheets are 4mm or 6mm which actually measure 3.6mm and 5.5mm respectively.

It's been mentioned before that Capricorn is built out of 4mm ply, but then so is the Fireball dinghy sitting in my garage and while I've no doubt it's strong enough for a 16.5' dinghy I'm not sure about a 24' boat which is going to have to deal with drying out on the beach and the prospect of being squeezed between a harbour wall and another yacht.

Specifying actual 5mm ply would add extra cost to the build and seems a little unnecessary. My current thinking is that the amas could be built from 3.6mm ply with a layer of thin glass weave in the bilge and up the outer topsides (on the inside!) while the vaka would be 5.5mm, again with glass in the bilge.

I'm concerned that building everything from 5.5mm would be a little overkill. Thoughts?

oldsailor7

01-03-2010, 04:16 PM

JOE.
I built my B24 with 1/4" 3 ply in the hulls and 5/16" in the cabin.

It was NOT sheathed with F/glass, but WAS coated with three coats of Epoxy and finished in Polyurethane paint.
Glass tape on all the seams.

Worked fine for me. :D

bruceb

01-03-2010, 11:14 PM

JM, My Buc 24 was built around the same time (mid 70s) as OS7's and of the same 1/4 fir ply. I would use 4mm as much as possible- certainly for the amas and probably for the above chine areas on the main hull. I would want 6mm on the main hull bottom for trailer and bottom abuse and I would glass the outside up to the waterline (main hull) and to the chines on the amas and fair and finish it very well. In the southern part of the US where I live, glassing the decks is required- not optional to keep the rain out. I wasn't convinced that 3/16-4mm would be strong enough, but my boat is 35+yrs and the 1/4 ply is overbuilt and over weight. I would use the best 4mm that you can find- here in the USA, I would use high grade rot protected "power ply" for the bulkheads and good meranti for the skins. Expensive but well worth it. Bruce

Joe Moore

01-04-2010, 03:50 AM

Thanks for the answers guys. I think in that case I'll go with the 3.6mm and glass the inside anywhere there's likely to be abnormal stresses such as pontoons, trailers and beaches! Save the heavier 5.5mm stuff for below the chines on the vaka.

I expect it's because the hulls are relatively narrow that they naturally retain much more strength and have smaller 'panels' for their size than a monohull, hence you can get away with what seem like quite thin skins.

I'll build the amas first from 3.6mm, see what they feel like and add a layer of glass weave accordingly. If they're tough enough then I know I'm on the right track for the vaka. I'm not really convinced about glass on the outside as it would offer little in the way of impact protection, just abrasion resistance. Again, I guess I'll see when it's built and make a firm decision.

oldsailor7

01-06-2010, 07:58 AM

Joe.
I am curious. Why would you want to glass your boat INSIDE.? :confused:

Joe Moore

01-06-2010, 08:05 AM

Joe.
I am curious. Why would you want to glass your boat INSIDE.? :confused:

I know it seems a little counter-intuitive, as the nasty stuff is on the outside generally, but there is logic to it!

Glass is very strong in tension (although not very stiff) so by putting it on the inside it will aid in protecting against pressure from waves and beaches pushing inwards against the hull. On the outside it would offer little to no strengthening benefit, just some abrasion resistance, most of which could be achieved with the correct paint.

The second benefit is the added waterproofing provided by the glass/epoxy to protect against the small amount of standing water that could accumulate in the bilges - especially of the amas. It's this long term standing water which is more likely to cause problems on a boat which will spend long periods on a drying mooring.

oldsailor7

01-07-2010, 06:13 AM

Glass is very strong in tension (although not very stiff) so by putting it on the inside it will aid in protecting against pressure from waves and beaches pushing inwards against the hull.[Quote]

NOT SO.
By your own words "(although not very stiff)", the glass /epoxy can stretch and because the wood can't --it will fracture before the glass/epoxy has attained it's full tensile strength. Besides glassing the interior of a boat is a rotten messy job which is quite un-necessary.

[Quote] The second benefit is the added waterproofing provided by the glass/epoxy to protect against the small amount of standing water that could accumulate in the bilges - especially of the amas. It's this long term standing water which is more likely to cause problems on a boat which will spend long periods on a drying mooring.

Three coats of a 100% solids epoxy in the bilges will do just as good a job without the extra work, expense and weight of glasscloth.

Joe Moore

01-07-2010, 10:03 AM

I'm going to have to disagree. By my thinking and that of others with experience in the materials, If glass is required for strengthening it's much better off on the inside than the outside as it'll reach it's tensile strength more quickly on the outside of the impact radius. More importantly, glass in places like the amas where standing water could accumulate should aid waterproofing.

It's important to note that I'm talking about a small amount of up to 200gsm weave in local areas, not some horrid heavy and weak chopped strand matt all over the hull.

Still, there's a long way to go before any chance of laminating so once the hulls are built is the sensible time to make a final decision on whether reinforcements are necessary (purely given that the 3.6mm ply is about 25% undersized).

sngatlanta

01-07-2010, 11:29 AM

I’ll back up what OS7 is saying for the Buc 24. Anything over the designed layup is moot. The weight to strength gain would be a bad trade. These boats have withstood the test of time built just as designed. Coat the inside as suggested.

We just finished up an 18ft monohull that is glassed on both sides making the ply a core so to speak. This was done without the bulkheads or deck in place making it relatively easy. The bulkheads are set after the glass and taped in. This boat is designed to be done this way and the strength is required.

Joe Moore

01-07-2010, 11:35 AM

I’ll back up what OS7 is saying for the Buc 24. Anything over the designed layup is moot. The weight to strength gain would be a bad trade. These boats have withstood the test of time built just as designed. Coat the inside as suggested.

I quite agree, the consideration here is being made purely because 3/16" (4.76mm) ply is not available at a feasible price in the UK. The nearest comparison is 3.6mm ply which is effectively 25% undersized - a significant percentage not to be ignored in structural terms.

sngatlanta

01-07-2010, 03:16 PM

Are you using BS 1088 Okume Marine ply or the likes? The reason I ask is we have to import it to the US and I’m confidant you do to and am curious as to the different size. Our 4mm is 4mm so I see your dilemma. (note also our 3/16" is 4mm due to sanding or nominal vs. dimensional)

Joe Moore

01-07-2010, 04:44 PM

Yep the BS1088 stuff over here is all sold in metric sizes, so the 4mm ply comes out at 3.6mm and is sold as such - I guess for the same reasons that your 3/16" also comes out undersized.

I'm not sure where they import it from though there is usually a distinction between "far eastern", regular and lloyds approved grades - not that this guarantees it comes from any different sources I suppose.

My local timber merchant do some good prices on all grades of plywood so when the time comes to place the order I'll go and see for myself what the quality difference is. After all, I've heard stories that all you're paying for in the bs1088 spec vs regular wbp ply is the inspection which can often be hopeless. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise, but that debate has raged on through plenty of previous threads I'm sure!

oldsailor7

01-07-2010, 05:54 PM

Unless you are wanting an out and out racing boat, 1/4" 3 ply is fine.
If you use Douglas Fir--(Oregon)--the boat will be a little heavier but still fine for a cruiser.
In any case two coats of Epoxy inside, with three coats outside and in the bilge areas is the go.

Epoxy is subject to deterioration by UV rays (sunlight), so all exterior surfaces must be painted with a good quality Polyurethane marine paint.

No need at all for F/Glassing, except for 10oz glass tape on all chine seams and corners. :D

bruceb

01-07-2010, 09:23 PM

Joe, the only places water has entered the 1/4 ply skin on my boat has been through fasteners and skin penetrations. Water has definitely gotten in the hulls, and still does, but the epoxy coatings put on 35 years ago still keep the ply dry. I would be more concerned of water getting in some places under the glass next to the frames, where I have had rot develop. On my amas, water had entered at the deck, tracked down the frames to the chine and had rotted it, but the coated ply skin was still ok. All my bulkheads have had some issues but only a couple have needed replacement. The water seems to have entered through the top edges of the bulkhead ply and around the limber holes- both areas that are hard to edge seal. I just "miked" my 4mm and 6mm "Hydrotek" brand ply- 4mm and 6mm exactly. I would trust it, it is quite strong, by the spec sheet and from experience on small power boats I have built. Bruce

Joe Moore

01-08-2010, 05:27 AM

all good firsthand info guys, thanks!

jmolan

01-16-2010, 10:56 AM

Looks like a nice buy for someone

http://nh.craigslist.org/boa/1551505627.html

oldsailor7

01-26-2010, 01:11 AM

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans left if anyone is still interested. :D

Samnz

02-03-2010, 05:19 AM

Capricorn is 4mm Gaboon ply everywhere except the main hull deck/cabin and cockpit which is 6mm. The whole boat is sheathed in a very light dynal cloth to protect the ply from moisture and sealed inside with epoxy. The panels flex a lot, but who cares, a wave will never break a small hull like these and if your worried about hitting a wharf, buy a powerboat!

Any extra weight will really ruin the sailing ability of the boat.

However, I am very scared of drying the boat out, only on a very calm day on very soft mud!

catsketcher

02-03-2010, 05:38 AM

Gday Joe

If you want to go the normal route you would glass the outside. Glass on the outside does a few jobs. It really does help with abrasion resistance and stops a thing called checking (splitting of the top veneer in sun) which may not be a problem in England. Also you can do a much much lighter glass job on the outside. You can get stuck into the glass with a squeegee and really rip the resin back out of it.

As for tech stuff - the glass is going to have a really hard time of it going over the chine logs or you are going to use really small pieces of it. It will probably not lie straight so any extra tensile strength will be moot. You certainly won't be able to screed the glass as hard and the resin ratio will be much higher. Also the glass cloth is not really a good tension cloth. Being woven it will stretch a fair bit and then with half the fibres going the across any load condition it is only half good. You don't get stiffness glassing ply. In a foam boat you use stitched fabrics - don't try to use this idea with light woven cloth and ply. Paint is not good at abrasion resistance - a good poly is a great thing but it is a thin skin and easily breached. A beached boat will need an outside skin.

cheers

Phil

bruceb

02-04-2010, 08:02 PM

Some glass on the bottom- at least below the water line, makes maintaining anti fouling paint a lot easier. With just paint, it is very easy to sand or scrape right through the outer ply veneer. My boat is fir ply and "checks" are a part of life with it, I wish it had a layer of dynel or light glass. B

oldsailor7

02-04-2010, 08:47 PM

Bruce.
I agree. If your plywood boat is made of Douglas Fir (Oregon) plywood, it is a good idea to have a thin coat of glass or dynel set in epoxy on the outside of the hulls.
Quality mahogany plys such as Brunzeel or Royal Dutch Weldwood Marine ply do not necessarily need glass. Just three coats of epoxy and two coats of marine polyurethane paint in a nice colour is sufficient.
However if-- for peace of mind --you want to glass it then by all means do.

ragnaroek

02-06-2010, 11:27 AM

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans left if anyone is still interested. :D

Hello,
I would be very interested, do you still sell the plan.
I´m from Upper Austria, and found this thread, while I was searching for plans for just that boat.
If you still sell it, could you please inform me.
Thanks a lot

P.S.: Please excuse my poor english.

ragnaroek

02-07-2010, 02:01 AM

Plans for sale on EBAY, just popped up. Buccaneer 24

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300380601066&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

... Did you buy his plans and did you get them ? Because his auction is on ebay again

ragnaroek

02-07-2010, 02:02 AM

...sorry forgot the link http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300392734596&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

ragnaroek

02-07-2010, 02:09 AM

Do anyone has detailed photo of the inside and outside of a B24?

...another link http://www.nauticaltrek.com/index.php?id=12080

sorry it was the wrong one

Waterat

02-18-2010, 10:04 AM

I still have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans left if anyone is still interested. :D

OLDSAILOR7, I WOULD LOVE THAT SET OF PLANS, HOW DO I PAY YOU, ??

Waterat

02-18-2010, 10:06 AM

Has Anyone On This Tread Any Experience Of A K24t Or Even A Few
Photos ??

Waterat

02-18-2010, 10:07 AM

What Would Be The Appox Cost Of Building A Buccaneer 24 ??

Waterat

02-18-2010, 10:08 AM

What Is The Max Spinnaker A B24 Would Carry ??

Whats Four, Now.

Waterat

02-18-2010, 10:10 AM

What Are The Approx Man Yours Needed For Construction Of A B24 ?
Thats Five, Now I Can Send Mail, Yeppee !!

Waterat

02-18-2010, 10:12 AM

All The Above Questions May Be Answered In One Reply, If I Haven't

Got To Far Up Everybodys' Nose, Waterat.

bruceb

02-18-2010, 10:48 PM

Waterat, look at some of the other buc 24 threads and also small tri. We had a lot of information get posted in those. The buc 24 is one of the lowest cost boats in its size range available. Both material and labor are minimal for the end result. It is "dated" and does not fold as designed. If you have any questions not answered in the other threads, send me a message and I will try to help. I did not build my boat but I have been repairing and up-dating it. I have a tall rotating rig and can easily carry a 600 sq foot chute. I have around 400 sq' upwind in light to meduim air.I think samnz has about an 800 foot spinaker on Capricorn. I am sure that is pushing the limit, but he has a good boat and knows how to handle it. :) I have sized my rig to take advantage of Melges 24's used sails that seem to be very available. I have just finished estimating the cost of a new set of floats/amas for mine at around $1000 US for top grade materials and I would think about a good week's labor.

Waterat

02-19-2010, 11:39 AM

Thanks Bruce, I'm burning my eyes out at the moment reading all the treads.
0S7 has been a great help and plans are on the way. I have a mast and sails
from a Wharram Tiki 21 and I think that will suffice to drive her for year one.
Its time to make sawdust, Many Thanks, Waterat.

bruceb

02-19-2010, 11:49 AM

Waterat, keep it light and it should work fine. I have tried a Hobie 16 main on mine just to see what happened. ( with a larger jib) The cloth is really too light for the "stiffness" of the Buc 24 but the combination makes a very nice, easily managed day-sailing rig. Don't add anything that Crowther doesn't show and the Buc will be easy to build and perform great. Bruce

oldsailor7

02-21-2010, 03:52 PM

Hows the weather down your way Bruce.?
Have you been able to get some sailing in.? :D

bruceb

02-21-2010, 07:07 PM

OS7, Two weekends ago it snowed 4 inches- shut Atlanta down completely, last weekend it blew 30kts and was 32-36 degrees F- I raced on a 34' mono with a dodger:D and this week was finally sunny, with no wind at all:( I worked on my trailer and I am pulling the boat for about a month. I want to launch by April 1st. I have quite a list of to-dos, and I will be posting some pics. Wish me some good weather:!: Bruce

oldsailor7

02-21-2010, 09:59 PM

JEEZ Bruce.
With that wind and near freezing temps, you must have experienced an unpleasant wind chill factor sailing on that mono. :eek:
I didn't think you got that sort of weather so far South.

Look forward to seeing your pics eventually. :D

bruceb

02-22-2010, 10:36 PM

Yes, the spray turning to ice on the foredeck gets your attention, and I think it is supposed to snow again this week. - a cold winter for us. My boat would have been less than comfortable, and I don't have a deep reef either. I will be letting the sail loft take care of that while the boat is out. I will report back soon, I am pulling it in the morning. Bruce

Waterat

02-26-2010, 05:47 AM

Has anyone any idea how many Buccaneer 24's are currently being built ?
There seems to be a big demand for plans.I am awaiting mine and would
be grateful for any moere ' construction' information.

Waterat.

bruceb

03-02-2010, 02:56 PM

I pulled my Buc out for spring servicing and recorded it. All stages, completely alone ( for practice) took about five hours as I was also taking some measurements and one of the crossbeams stuck and took an extra hour.A second person would speed it up a lot. I didn't lift anything over 20 lbs. The "cars" ( skateboards with some lifting tackle) would not roll all the way in on a boat with a cabin, but would probably get close enough for two people to swing the floats on to trailer racks. I hang my floats from the crossbeam "stubs". I also use the same system to drop the floats to the ground. I didn't design it, the cars came with the boat. When the floats are un-bolted, I can push the floats in or out with one hand:)

oldsailor7

03-02-2010, 04:48 PM

Bruce.
What a clever idea.
Thanks for sharing that, I am sure it will be of great help to a lot of B24 owners and builders. :D

Whats the chance of a close up of one of the "Skateboards", showing the positioning of the cheek blocks etc: ??

bruceb

03-03-2010, 10:34 AM

The rear car has less than 50 lbs on it so 1-1 is plenty, the front car needs about a 6-1. These are primitive, but they work well. B

bruceb

03-03-2010, 10:43 AM

oldsailor7

03-03-2010, 11:39 PM

OS7, The plans show a stainless "collar" around the outboard end of the water stays and crossbeam, just inboard of the float. My boat does not have them, and I don't know if it ever did. I haven't noticed excessive movement in that area, do you think they are necessary? Bruce

Bruce, I took this question on board and opened up page 4 of the plans to have a squiz at the situation.

The strap around the water stay and crossbeam is right at the "Kink" in the stay. This does two things. It makes sure the stay end lies along the plane of the crossbeam and thus applies the force from the stay to the bolt at right angles, putting the load on the bolt in shear---as it should be.

Also if the strap wasn't there the stay would try to straighten out under load, putting downward pressure on the wooden structure underneath, which would eventually fail in compression under the sucessive shock loads from the mast shroud, in rough sea conditions.

Lock designed this boat to be able to withstand the rough sea conditions in the waters around Australia and so made it very sturdy, but light.
Even though you are lake sailing, you say you are intending to increase your sail areas and so would load up the water stays accordingly.

I would inspect the inner vertical bolts very carefully to see if they have been subject to any bending.
Also inspect the wood under the inner crossbeam saddle to see if there has been any bruising of the timber.
If there is no significant damage you may get away without the straps, but the final decision is up to you.

Hope this helps. :D

bruceb

03-04-2010, 12:29 PM

I understand the loading on the waterstay straps, I just wondered if the collars had been deleted on any other boats. My 1/2" studs are not bent, but the saddles definitely have some wear and deformation where the strap exits. As you know, my boat was pretty loose, it had spent most of its life on the Chesapeake- not as rough as AUS, but short choppy waves that do work a boat hard. I don't see any wear marks on the straps where the collars should have been, that is why I asked. I don't have any close-up pics of other Buc 24s to compare mine with. I think I may add a set to at least the front cross bars where most of the load seems to be. My saddles have been repaired in the past and need some work now, and I am thinking of replacing the rear stainless water stays with Dyneema. The synthetic will save over 15lbs, be easy to pre-load, and I can eliminate the wear point under the cross arm/saddle. Replacing the wooden cross arm plugs with alloy tube has really taken the slop out of the cross bars and this seems like a good idea also. Any thoughts? Bruce

oldsailor7

03-05-2010, 12:00 AM

Sounds good to me Bruce.
I don't know much about the way Dyneema is used, and I understand it is not too good at resisting abrasion. But its other qualities seem most favourable.
Don't forget that although the forward waterstay takes all the brunt of it when the lee float is hard pressed, the back windward waterstay is also stressed by the force from the rig, thru the mainstay chainplate, near to to the back beam.
These forces ( waves and rig oscillation) multiply the shock loads in a random way which defies calculation.
Lock told me he that when he was calculating his structural requirements he multiplied the static loads by a factor of six to allow for acceleration loadings.

Samnz

03-05-2010, 09:59 PM

I am thinking of replacing the rear stainless water stays with Dyneema. The synthetic will save over 15lbs, be easy to pre-load, and I can eliminate the wear point under the cross arm/saddle.

Dyneema is great stuff but useless under static load, way to stretchy, you will find it doesnt work unless you pre stretch it, that is splice it to correct length and load it up to 75% or so of its breaking load overnight, then ropecoat it.

bruceb

03-07-2010, 07:08 PM

Thanks Samnz, I am still learning to use synthetics and what does and doesn't work. I plan on using an over-size line with a lashing termination on one end so I can take out the initial stretch. I will take your advice and pre-load and coat the stays after I splice them. The "weak link" in the original system seems to be the 1/2" bolts so I was planing on using 3/8 or larger amsteel which has about the same load rating. This is just for the rear stays, I am keeping the stock straps on the front. My rear waterstays have been completely unloaded at rest and not very loaded when sailing so I was not too concerned with creep- but I will watch and experiment. I can always go back to my stainless straps if I have to. If anybody else has any advice on this I would love to hear it:) Bruce

oldsailor7

03-07-2010, 07:33 PM

"My rear waterstays have been completely unloaded at rest and not very loaded when sailing".

Bruce---if that is so your mast mainstays are not tight enough. :eek:

Don't forget the mainstays hold the floats "UP", thus taking the buckling loads off the back waterstays and putting the crossbeams in compression rather than a bending mode. :D

bruceb

03-08-2010, 10:47 PM

My boat has been loose- the wooden crossbeam plugs were just worn a lot. They could have been tightened with filler, but I have replaced all of them with aluminum pipe sleeves. I have been running the side stays tight enough to pick up the floats some, but not so tight that my mast won't rotate easily. The rear end of the floats would move about 3", the fronts were a little tighter. I would prefer not to depend on the stay tension to keep the floats up- I like to keep the rig snug but not tight. I depend on the main sheet tension to keep the forestay tight. A crossbeam like Capricorn's would be best, but I have installed new 1/4" side stays for now that I trust so I can run some more tension. The crossbeams seem able to hold the floats, at least at rest. Bruce

lgenova

03-15-2010, 02:40 PM

New buc building

Hey guys,

I am planning to build a Buccaneer 24 and I just received the plans from e-bay ad.

I‘ve been following the threads and there are many mods that should be improved easily in a new construction:

1. Extend the floats by 2 ft. just following the oldsailor7 method;
2. Plumb the bows of main hull and floats;
3. Extend the transom;
4. New crossbeam, like one that Samnz designed for Capricorn.
5. Swing centerboard;
6. Main traveler mounted over crossbeam.

Suggestions or comments are welcome.

lgenova

bruceb

03-16-2010, 11:39 PM

Igenova, I am sure there are several opinions on this:) but I think the first question is what you intend to do with the boat. The racers and cruisers have different needs. The Buc 24 is not "wrong" as designed, and any changes take away from the simplicity and ease of construction. From what I have learned with mine, I would change some things for my use, but only as necessary. I have a tall "racing" sized rig and I could use the longer floats, most modern tris have longer floats with more volume- the ones on the new 22' farrier look great. The stock floats could be extended, and I have considered building a set for my boat, but a newer design would be the best. The stock rig probably doesn't need them. I wouldn't plumb the bows- the main hull's bow is out of the water most of the time and plumb bows sometimes have steering issues, and they would be a lot of re-designing. Bruce

oldsailor7

03-17-2010, 03:54 AM

Well, I've said this before ---and I'll say it again.
I built, owned, cruised and raced a Buccaneer 24 a long time ago.

If I did it again I wouldn't change a thing---EXCEPT:-

I would add a bowsprit so that I could eliminate the spinnaker pole and fly a nice assymetric.

I would make the same daggerboard which I had on mine. A simple rectangular planform board, set vertical in a box with seals top and bottom. The EXPOSED area of the board = to 2% of the projected sail area. IE:- approx 1'3" wide and 3' long. a good symetrical section is NACA 0008. The upper part of the board should be capped so that when the board is fully down, the two pieces of 1 x 12 bracing the board box to the mid side stringers and the rear corners tied into frame #5, make a handy seat for the cook at the galley immediatly aft of the mast step at frame #4.

When I built mine, I did it in company with a friend in the TMCC and we bought our materials and sails together. Our boats were identical in every way --except he built the plans centreboard and I built the above board. In racing we were equal on all headings except I could always beat him to weather. I put that down to my bigger area board, Thats all.

On thinking about Sams experiences I don't think I would extend the float bows at all. I suspect that if they were longer and they drove into the back of a wave the extra leverage of the longer decking may be just enough to trip the boat over the bows. In Sams experience the bows submerged, in some cases nearly up to the mast foot, but the boat just popped up again. (Correct me if I am wrong Sam).

If you want to go to the extra trouble, by all means extend the keel 1'6" to the rear. Add a sloping transom. Install the alternate spade rudder and hang a SMALL outboard motor on a standard motor bracket on the transom.

Don't forget any further alterations just add weight and extra wetted surface, all of which detract from the performance of this wonderful little Trimaran.

lgenova

03-17-2010, 08:03 PM

Thank you guys,

Yes, I'm intending to go race. I'm a HC 16 racer but the age (50) doesn’t let me go as 30 or 20 years ago. I'm located in the northeast of Brazil and we can go sail all days in the year. Naturally there will be a point when you want a little more comfort especially with the family when off race. The idea of making those modifications is, also, to give a modern look without too much work. I know that the boat as stock has a fantastic performance, but I’m starting from scratch so why do not try some mods.

I am planning to put a taller mast with a square top just to feel tasty of blood in the mouth :eek: .

I know that this arrangement is not for a beginner and capsizing a 24 ft is not the same as HC 16 (I’ve done a lot :D ).

When I mean plumb the bow is to give it 5 to 10 degree from the keel.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41531&stc=1&d=1268870244

Now I’m starting to cut the frames of the floats.

The cost for all timber and ply for 2 floats was near US$260.00.

6 sheet - 3/16 ply.
1 sheet – ¼ ply .
170 m - assorted sizes of timber.

I don’t know the volume of epoxy will be used for 2 hulls but a KIT of 5 Kg here is around US$100.00.

I will try to put a log some were in the web with photos.

lgenova

bruceb

03-18-2010, 10:54 AM

Igenova, Your lumber prices are a little less less than ours- it pays to be nearer the source. I think you will use some more epoxy, coating the skins soaks up quite a bit of material and is very important. I think the number one piece of advice would be to keep the boat light! Crowther designed in enough strength, don't be tempted into "making it a little stronger", many of these boats have survived years of hard use and neglect with out breaking- just as designed. What are your "normal" wind conditions? The stock 24, even with my tall, over canvased rig is a lot harder to "stuff" than your Hobie. I still sail a H-16 that has been over many times but I haven't come close with the Buc-- YET:rolleyes: It has taken me a season of racing to get my attention away from the leeward bow and start looking where I am going and just trust the boat. About crossbeams-- I have the complete rear crossbeam/water stay system off of my boat for some rot repair. I have weighed all of the parts, and the total is about 90 lbs, which I think is quite a lot. It is simple and has been reliable, my boat has been in almost constant use for over 30 years and even with considerable rot under the center of the rear beam, nothing was moving. Only the outer tubes were loose from the wood plugs. I think a properly engineered beam would be stiffer and weigh less than the stock 4.7 lbs a foot. I don't know about cost. If you are going to race, you will need the rear traveler although it does get in the way of the tiller. I find I need to have the main car several inches to weather to keep the boom near the center line in max point trim. The Buc with modern sails trims out a lot like your H-16, but it tacks easily in all conditions, goes up-wind with the best of the 30' monos, and has "multi" speed off wind, a very nice combination. Bruce

lgenova

03-19-2010, 01:47 PM

Thank you bruce,

Yes, the price of lumber is not critical here, as we have a vast source and varieties.

Our average wind speed is about 10 knots with low waves. I love sail H-16 and fly a hull with trapeze. I don’t know if a B-24 can beat H-16 on ideal conditions. May be on chop and strong wind.

The position of the traveler is a question that is in my mind. I think that open aft cockpit should be applied and the tiller goes bellow traveler. The Samnz’s crossbeam seams to be strong enough for the righting moment forces. Since I don’t need to fold it I can make a good reinforcement with the frames and hull.

lgenova

bruceb

03-19-2010, 02:46 PM

With your wind conditions, I would think a rig about the size of mine and Samnz would be fun. I have the stock fore triangle and the main is about 6 feet taller- a nice fractional set-up. I often use a self-tacking jib that makes handling very easy and I still have plenty of power. The open transom with the tiller under seems right on these boats, Samnz has some pictures on one of the Buc 24 forums showing his. I think you will find you are faster than a H-16 at least some of the time. Bruce

oldsailor7

03-19-2010, 05:18 PM

Igenova.
If you complete another two posts I will be able to PM you about a simple, but effective mainsheet/traveller arrangement which does not form a barracade across the top of the rear crossbeam. :D

lgenova

03-19-2010, 08:00 PM

Thank you oldsailor7,

I will appreciate to have this arrangement.

Lgenova.

lgenova

03-19-2010, 08:08 PM

And I’m looking forward with impatience to break a bottle of champagne

lgenova

03-19-2010, 08:22 PM

bruceb

I have seen those pictures from Samnz. I will try to order a main sail like yours from NS.
I had read many times that forum related with this impressive little boat and found many ideas and good references.

Thank you guys.

lgenova

oldsailor7

03-20-2010, 07:08 AM

IGENOVA.
When you got your plans off of E-Bay, did you just get the 6 sheets of the plans ---or did you get anything extra.??

lgenova

03-20-2010, 07:54 PM

I've got the 6 sheets and 1 extra sheet with a diagram of other rudder.

If you want I can PM you with a copy.

lgenova

bruceb

03-21-2010, 06:29 PM

Since several Buc's are under construction, I have some things I have learned from mine. Crowther's plans are quite good in general, but some detail improvements have been developed in the last forty years. First, the bulkhead plywood should be left about 3/8 to 1/2 inch back from the edges of the frames like the current "stitch and glue" designs. An epoxy fillet can then be used to fill and seal the ply end grain and strengthen the joint. Every one of my bulkheads has at least some rot that all started where the ply edge butted against the hull. The new way is better suited to epoxy construction. Next, the plans show drains next to the keel, but the next two fore and aft stringers form an upward facing "V" that traps dirt and water against the the frames and outer skin. Either extra drain holes and/or an epoxy "puddle" on the uphill side at the frames needs to be added. The bottom of the crossbeam forms another "V" that needs to have a drain hole added. Water will get in/around/under the alloy tubes and it needs somewhere to drain through the center of the wooden crossbeam mount. The four crossbeam mounting bolts also need cross-drilled drain holes low at the bottom of the wooden beam. The floats are especially prone to rot as it is hard to provide enough ventilation, I would pre-treat all wood in them and provide drainage for water that will! get in around the mounting bolts- easy to do now, almost impossible after the deck is on. I don't have a cabin, but apparently there are some rot-prone areas in them, maybe someone can add to this? Bruce

lgenova

03-21-2010, 07:42 PM

Bruceb

That’s a good idea, but I think that 3/8 should be reduced to 1/8 (or less) applied before the attachment to panel, I believe, this thick is enough to seal the ply end grain and after panel mounted, another fillet can be applied between frames, panels, stringers, gunwales and chines, double protecting the ply end.

Lgenova

bruceb

03-21-2010, 08:06 PM

I tend to error on the larger side- but as long as you pay attention 1/8" or even a 45 degree bevel is enough. I use a piece of 3/8" or 1/2" pcv pipe to make my fillets and I can be a little sloppy:rolleyes: I have tested some of my joints, adding a good fillet increases the strength at least 30 percent, as well as sealing the ply for very little weight gain. Bruce

redreuben

03-21-2010, 09:47 PM

The 45 degree angle sounds brilliant, what I used to do building foam core boats with ply bulkheads is glue on a 12mm x 50mm strip of 80k foam (klegecell or similar) in way of the bulkhead, glue in the bulkhead and then shape the foam into a radius with a die grinder and 40grit tube and glass over.
Cheers,
R.

kelldog

03-22-2010, 11:33 AM

OldSailor7;

"Igenova.
If you complete another two posts I will be able to PM you about a simple, but effective mainsheet/traveller arrangement which does not form a barracade across the top of the rear crossbeam. "

I would also be interested in hearing more about the mainsheet/traveler system. I have the V configuration on my rear beam and I am considering a traveler track set up. This also brings up a question; What is the advantage pro/cons of V mainsheet setup or traveler track and cars?
Thank you,
Kelly.

CT249

03-23-2010, 05:37 AM

I don't know if this has been brought up (apologies if it has) but on the way home tonight I saw a Bucc 24 in Lavender Bay on Sydney Harbour. Judging from the name on the floats, there's a chance it may have been Bluey Zarsoff.

Great boat, pity to see it not apparently getting used much. I don't know how many others are around - Stirrer, minus cabin, was on Lake Burley Griffin about 10 years ago.