fast cats

[wannabeboater]

I've recently developed this interest in multihull sailboats, and the catamaran just sticks out the most to me. Although i'm creating the love for catamarans, i still don't know enough about them. So this is why I am here. I'd like a catamaran from 40-60 ft, that is luxurious and spacious, but not a slug. By luxurious i mean i'd like a functional boat with atleast 3 staterooms and 2 heads. I'd also like a galley that isn't very cramped, with some living space. I know this is a lot, but don't be afraid to reccomend boats on the bigger end of the list. Now to performance, i'm not asking for a race boat, but it would be nice to be around 20 knots in good conditions, and SAFE. I would be sailing in the atlantic and pacific, and possibly more. I'm not very specific but i think it would be better to have boats for the finishing of my search, thanks ahead.
Patrick

[Alan M.]

St Francis 50: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=WFqm48C2BPk

[apex1]

We have some real experienced Catamaran designers here on the board, use the search function to find them.
Give it a thought to have a vessel custom built to your requirements! Contrary to common belief a one off is NOT more expensive per se than a production boat.
And that was said by a production boat builder!

Richard

[wannabeboater]

St Francis 50: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=WFqm48C2BPk

That seems like my kind of boat, thanks for the information, do you know of any sight so i could learn more?

[wannabeboater]

We have some real experienced Catamaran designers here on the board, use the search function to find them.
Give it a thought to have a vessel custom built to your requirements! Contrary to common belief a one off is NOT more expensive per se than a production boat.
And that was said by a production boat builder!

Richard
Thanks i will take that into mind, have you seen the bare bones project? That caught my eye, but im not sure if the design is good, performs well, etc.. if you know of some designs that have good reputations, please let me know. Also, safe like i said earlier, once again thanks ahead for any info

[apex1]

Thanks i will take that into mind, have you seen the bare bones project? That caught my eye, but im not sure if the design is good, performs well, etc.. if you know of some designs that have good reputations, please let me know. Also, safe like i said earlier, once again thanks ahead for any info

No, have´nt seen that. I am in a third world country at present (Turkey) where utoube is censored.

If you send me a mail (click my name) I´ll be pleased to discuss the requirements or give you some recommendations of designers. One of them is Richard Woods (just one, there are many), he likes to contradict me quite often, and calls me a Cat opponent, but his boats are not the worse.
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

Regards
Richard

[Richard Woods]

Thank you Apex1. Didn't know there were "many" of me though!!

To wannebeboater. 40-60ft is a big jump. Volume increases by the cube, so a 60ft cat has nearly 4 times the room of a 40ft.

How many people will be sailing with you?? You can get 4 double cabins, big heads, galley and saloon in a 35-38ft cat.

Smaller boats are easier to handle and you can sail in more areas because of air and water draft restrictions.

Also remember that a 60ft cat will be around 30ft wide and there are very few places you can slip a boat at that width.

Obviously you don't have a budget problem, so I suggest you charter a few different cats to get a feel of what they are like - but remember not all cats are the same - just as not all monohulls are alike.

Hope this helps, keep asking questions

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[apex1]

Thank you Apex1. Didn't know there were "many" of me though!!
]

Well, we all learn here you know.........:D
And you once made a statement that there were too many Richards around here.........................sic

Regards
Richard

[wannabeboater]

How many people will be sailing with you?? You can get 4 double cabins, big heads, galley and saloon in a 35-38ft cat.



5, 2 adults and 3 children with the occasional extra 4 adults, the reason i would like bigger is because more waterline, so faster, and i suppose it would be safer for my dream of an atlantic crossing. Since your a designer, i expect you can set me straight, but if you know any 35 ft atleast that meet my requirement i will take them into consideration.

Apex1, if you search the bare bones project in this part of the forum, it should come up i believe bob oram helped out

Once again thank you very much for the great information.

[masalai]

As Frosty or someone else has said "...I resemble that..." as I often adopt the persona of a "Richard Cranium", so I doubt you are the only one to have that identity - I have found many and apart from your name you are not amongst those :D:D:D ...

A cat that size, I would suggest would need permanent crew? - I do not want to run a hotel so have 2 double berth spaces - re-assigned all the other space for personal use - in a 39ft lightweight and hopefully fast cat... See my links below... Hopefully launched before April 2010...

[wannabeboater]

I am now leaning towards a smaller cat if i need a crew. And if its capable of doing what a bigger cat is then it meets my requirements. =] masalai, that design has very nice lines, my kind of taste. When it is launched please tell me the results, the cost to build, the time, and how many people worked on it. I love this forum, so much help =]

[masalai]

Read the pdf that Manie posted here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/boat-speeds-28385.html the thread on the build is in the link of my posts...

[wannabeboater]

thank you, do you know of any other sites with more info on the 39' C?

[masalai]

thank you, do you know of any other sites with more info on the 39' C?

Have a look to the Bob Oram design link - (bottom right are links to some others) - only 2 of us ("The Scrumble Project" in Darwin and "My Little Piece of Peace", myself) - - build close to Hervey Bay, Qld, Australia and you almost become part of the family, for I have found Bob's support, (regular visits and guidance), to be excellent...

My shed space may be available sometime between Christmas 09 and April 2010, rental is very reasonable...

[Richard Woods]

I agree with Masalai's boat speed link article.

I have once done 1000 miles in 5 days, Antigua to Bermuda. That was racing on a fully crewed 55ft monohull. I have sailed 650 miles in 3 days on my 35ft 8 berth Banshee catamaran, racing 2 up back from the Azores.

I have often sailed 100 miles in 12 hours and even more often averaged over 9 knots for over 6 hours when cruising.

So it is rare to do consistent 200 mile days. Some of you will remember the excitement when Phil Weld won the 1980 OSTAR in record time sailing his 50ft trimaran Moxie. But he averaged under 8 knots.

I quote from an article on my website:

"Most catamarans are advertised as being “fast” for many people are easily seduced by the thought of more speed. However, when cruising, speed must always be related to comfort. Just because a catamaran sails upright to windward and doesn’t roll downwind, it doesn’t mean you should always sail one fast.

On a monohull you tend to sail as fast as possible all the time. On a catamaran you only sail as fast as you want to go.

I often compare boats with cars: 6 knots is 60mph, 8 knots is 80; 20 knots is 200. So in reality not many cruising multihulls genuinely do 20 knots in flat water.

A monohull is like an old car; you can keep your foot on the gas all the time. In a new car it’s often hard to judge how fast you are going, it’s so comfortable. In practice, few people buy the fastest car; rather most want a car that is comfortable to drive and handles predictably. Even so, you quickly learn not to drive fast in traffic, in the dark or in bad weather.

It’s the same with a catamaran, where the real trick to successful catamaran sailing is to know when to slow down. Thus I prefer to cruise offshore at a 6 knot average rather than 9. That’s because even 9 knots can be uncomfortably fast when passagemaking, mainly because you are living on board, not just out for a day sail.

I’ve found that peak speeds are about double the average speed. To average 9 knots you’ll often do 18 and later you’ll swear the log never read below 12. Sheer speed is not the main reason we go sailing, for if we really wanted to get somewhere in a hurry we’d use a powerboat. Instead, what is important is to have a boat that is fun to sail. Having a responsive boat and one that will do what you want when you want it are the real differences between boats that sail well and those that don’t. "

Certainly if you have children on board you are unlikely to average high speeds.

A Transit 38, one of my semi production designs, may suit you. There is one sailing in Virginia, built in part by John Lombardi, another just launched in the UK and a third building.

My own 34ft Romany is currently in the St John River, Fl. We return to it Oct 30 and then sail south to the Keys for Christmas, so you would be welcome to visit/sail later this year.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[whoosh]

WITH all due respect, it is IMO quite difficult to have speed and safety and strength
For instance if you go to my gallery there is a 54 mono there She sailed on the Darwin Indonesia rally this year and cleaned up most of the cats
The reason for this IS that when you load a cat for cruising, the weight climbs so much andof coarse the performance just droops away so that your daily mileage is no better than a good mono
I like cats, do not misunderstand me
Try Stuart Bloomfield he was Crowthers chief designer for 10 years
here is one of his designed for Simon Steffen, I worked a bit on the pricing,
Yes she is not light but super strong
Drop STU a line or two
rgds
Stu H
the renders are a start by bhnautika
the design is to survey and the material is aluminium alloy

[wannabeboater]

I do agree with what you said, and averaging 7 knts would be fine, i just want her to be able to get up and go when the conditions are right, but if that risks the boat not being very strong, then im not sure, i'd like strength over speed, but there has to be a way for a strong boat to have a peak speed of atleast 15kts. Another reason i want a cat rather then mono is stability, outdoor space, and i love the indoor space as well.

[rayaldridge]

Check out Chris White's designs:

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/

His Atlantic 57 cat sailed from Bristol to Bermuda in 61 hours. Not bad for a cruising boat on a shakedown cruise.

Folks who say that multis are no faster than monos are usually comparing stripped-out racing monos to cruising multis. All significant ocean sailing records are now held by multis, a situation that seems unlikely to change any time soon.

For Leopard's passage the weather was favorable to be sure. But we were in cruising mode and except for me, it was the first catamaran passage for everyone onboard. Had we been racing we would have had a more race experienced crew and been pushing much harder. Under these conditions to essentially match the best passage times of 80' racing maxis over a 635 mile passage while sailing comfortably on autopilot, never flying a spinnaker, with enough fuel to motor all the way if we had to, and having elaborate sit down meals (with wine) is, in my opinion, pretty amazing stuff.

[wannabeboater]

thank you for the reply, i will check it out, and i want a cruising cat, not racing i just want it to be fast when i want it to. =]

[Ulf]

How about Gunboat? Luxurious and fast it seems...

http://www.gunboat.com/

[wannabeboater]

Thank-you so much, i abseloutely love the layout of the gunboat 48. The lines are beautiful, the seat out back with a view is awesome, the two trampolines up front would be very fun. I like the fact of stearing inside, a pilothouse, and how all the windows open. The part i like alot is the kitchen, it has a view, and is in the middle and spacious, all this in a 48ft boat. thank-you. do you know what these go for? and some legitiment testimonials?

[wannabeboater]

Thank you RayalDridge, it looks nice, but do you know of any smaller, i've now reconsidered the size from 35-50ft, wonderful, but not me =/. Thnks to you all for the wonderful information.

[Stumble]

Wannabe,

The gunboat 48 is going for around $1.6 million new, plus delivery and outfitting costs. So say 1.7-1.8 all up rigged and ready to go. I couldn't find one on the used market easily so I will leave this as an exercise for the student, :) but any good boat broker should be able to help you find one if they are even on the used market yet. Remember this boat has only been in production for a few years (I think since 2004-5) and many are semi-custom so they may only infrequently hit the used marked if at all.

One thing about the Gunboat is that they are carbonfiber boats, so there is a significant price premium as compared to a glass boat. It may be worth it to you, but for cruising it seems like a pretty big bite to save a few thousand pounds.

As for testimonials... Everything I have ever heard about the Gunboats is that they are wondefully built, very fast for their size, well designed, and pretty much the top of the line boats in thier nitch. That being said I have never sailed on one, so I wouldn't take my word for it.

[rayaldridge]

Thank you RayalDridge, it looks nice, but do you know of any smaller, i've now reconsidered the size from 35-50ft, wonderful, but not me =/. Thnks to you all for the wonderful information.

Chris White has a 42 footer that has shown a good turn of speed for a cruising boat.

These boats are a bit less expensive than some. They have the cockpit forward of the pilothouse.

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/atlantic42/index.php

[Stumble]

On a side note, many of the cats I have seen have ridiculously small water tanks, requiring either a water maker or modifications to carry more. Now this isn't a problem if you are doing 2-3 day weekend trips, but 60-100 gallons of water just isn't enough for any long duration stays.

[whoosh]

How about Gunboat? Luxurious and fast it seems...

http://www.gunboat.com/

wow!!! those are the best looking cats I have ever seen
Stumble is correct abt tankage But then production monos have inadaquate fuel and water for long passage making

[Alan M.]

I do agree with what you said, and averaging 7 knts would be fine, i just want her to be able to get up and go when the conditions are right, but if that risks the boat not being very strong, then im not sure, i'd like strength over speed, but there has to be a way for a strong boat to have a peak speed of atleast 15kts. Another reason i want a cat rather then mono is stability, outdoor space, and i love the indoor space as well.

Most of Bob Oram's boats will comfortably sail at the kinds of speeds you're talking about. Here's a couple of very short (still camera with small memory card) videos I took sailing up the Queensland coast on a Mango 38. This boat was fairly heavily loaded too, I think we had at least 200 bottles of beer aboard, as well as rum, food etc for 4 crew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg0ar4WFkA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXEwR4IJbUY&feature=related

I recently sailed on an Oram 39C, the same design Masalai is building, across the Gulf of Carpenteria at an average of 8 knots for the 350nm. Peak speed was around 16 knots, and we were sailing pretty conservatively, just using headsails.

Here: http://www.svdrumbeat.com/id389.htm is some of the log of an Oram 60C which consistently averages over 200nm per day.

I'm currently nearing completion of an Oram 44C, some photo's are here: http://www.hostmybb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=254&mforum=easy

All these boats are built from Duflex, and are immensely strong. I've seen, as has Masalai, a Duflex boat which was smashed against a marina wall for several days in the big Whitsunday's storm which wrecked around 60 boats a couple of years ago, and although obviously wrecked where it came in direct contact with the rock wall, there is absolutely no structural damage beyond that.

[stubloomfield]

A well designed boat in the size range you are looking at should be able to sail safely and comfortably at 15-20 knots in heavier conditions. Stu H (whoosh) mentioned a 50' aluminium cat I recently designed; it has a payload capacity of over 6 tonnes and should easily exceed 20 knots boatspeed whilst being suitable for sailing in very heavy conditions. If you look here http://www.bloomfieldinnovation.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=5 there are photos of a 45' design that the owners report sails up to 23-24knots peak speed on ocean waves, and will sail an honest constant speed in high teens (we were sailing at 17 knots during trials 7 years ago). This boat is very safe (due to a number of factors including the very buoyant bows) and the owners say the are 20% faster than similar sized boats they cruise with and feel a lot safer in the ocean due to the full bows (no scary stuff); the structure weighs 5 tonnes and the boat is sailing at 14 tonnes (cruising). I also have 56' designs that sail at 22 knots (in strong wind) at 22 tonnes displacement, all from the comfort of a protected helm station http://www.bloomfieldinnovation.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=1

There are a lot of factors that affect strength, speed and safety and it would take a long time to cover the subject completely, but my philosophy is that all boats should be designed strong enough to handle the conditions they will be sailed in, and good handling is paramount for safety, which subsequently allows more confidence and makes higher speeds possible if you want to sail that way.

[whoosh]

thanks for that StuB, I did not realise they were so quick
Your boats look powerful

[wannabeboater]

Wow, alot of information, i could care less about the gunboat for that price, but are there any designs with the galley, looks, safety similar to it? or are there designers willing to design a boat like that, but instead of carbon fibre? i love the layout, looks, and strength, thank you for the other designs but im in love with that design lol

[wannabeboater]

Well thankyou, how much $ does it cost, if i can give him a sketch and he makes it come to life, and not end mine =p

[stubloomfield]

If you want to contact me directly I can send some more information on other designs we have or develop something based on your sketches. I have attached a simple profile of a 56' design we have below as an example.
http://www.bloomfieldinnovation.com/images/C435 GA Profile - catplans com.png

[Bruce Woods]

I recently sailed on an Oram 39C, the same design Masalai is building, across the Gulf of Carpenteria at an average of 8 knots for the 350nm. Peak speed was around 16 knots, and we were sailing pretty conservatively, just using headsails.

.



That's a lovely sail, that we completed earlier this year. Did you leave from Bamaga or Weipa.

Regards Bruce.

[apex1]

A well designed boat in the size range you are looking at should be able to sail safely and comfortably at 15-20 knots in heavier conditions.

NO BOAT SAILS SAFE AND COMFORTABLE AT THESE SPEEDS IN SEVERE CONDITIONS!

We should not talk a novice into such nonsense.

If you ever anchored in the billabongs of the blue water community you will soon be told the plain truth behind the claims!
One example is the comparison between multi and mono: the cruiser Cat is not much faster on average blue water distances, although technically capable of much higher speeds!

Instead of opening the whole basket of products available or thinkable, to confuse a novice even more than he´s already, we should try to go a professional way. Lets establish a "book of requirements" first, then have a look what fits best, a one off, a proven series built, a customized design, etc..


Regards
Richard

[wannabeboater]

Apex, i don't know if you understan what i meant, i know that that is true, i want mine to be safe in severe conditions, i won't be trying to race, as it is dangerous, atleast in those conditions... i would like her to do that on good days so we can have fun.
StuB, thats a lovely design. I do like it, but how is the layout ect.?
Otherwise, i may put a sketch up, do you know of any software where i can make/post it?

[apex1]

Oh yes I did understand.
And btw. have a look here:

http://www.cata-lagoon.com/500_pres_uk.php


http://www.cata-lagoon.com/images/bato/l500/n_45R1512.jpg

and this is the difference of just 6ft !!!!!


http://www.cata-lagoon.com/images/bato/l440/n_45R1284.jpg

[wannabeboater]

How about nautitech's? i like their newish 47 ft and their late 90's 48 ft. Are they anywhere close to my requirements in safety and performance?

[wannabeboater]

Here it is =] Do you like it?
Should i add detail anywhere?
its my first sketch ever, enlarge it and it looks better

[apex1]

Thank-you so much, i abseloutely love the layout of the gunboat 48. The lines are beautiful, the seat out back with a view is awesome, the two trampolines up front would be very fun. I like the fact of stearing inside, a pilothouse, and how all the windows open. The part i like alot is the kitchen, it has a view, and is in the middle and spacious, all this in a 48ft boat. thank-you. do you know what these go for? and some legitiment testimonials?

Must have overlooked that.
Do´nt let them talk you into such a boat! The Gunboat claims to be a racer, not exactly what you asked for. Moreover you find, well, lets say bold, statements on their website. Claiming that a racer is stronger built than a cruiser is the sheer nonsense, no, its criminal! It is either a raceboat or it is a strong boat. A raceboat can be strong enough to finish one or more races (in the latter case it´s already a looser), but never strong enough to be a cruiser!
And every ocean race record is a perfect proof of that!
All the nice (and expensive) performance of such boat immediately drops to nothing when you are provisioning for a ocean crossing. If you would find the space on a racer.
Thats another topic. Who tells you that provisioning for children can easily be more than twice the weight than for adults? Nobody. The boatbuilder or designer does´nt know, and if, he does´nt tell you, `cos CATs pay heavy performance penalties when it comes to weight!
A CAT with the same tankage, provisioning etc. than a mono will have lost almost all of his speed advantage! Thats the flip side of the medal...
So, take care who tells you what! Especially here, where you sometimes find more opinions than experience, this was a perfect example.........

[apex1]

How about nautitech's? i like their newish 47 ft and their late 90's 48 ft. Are they anywhere close to my requirements in safety and performance?

Well, thanks for the flowers, but I could´nt do worse than making statements on a specific boat when it comes to valuation of safety! At least in the public I would not consider a discussion about that topic.

[Stumble]

Wanna,

I am just curious about a few things:

1) do you have an idea what you would be looking to spend on a boat? This can radically change what might be suggested.

2) What type of long distance sailing have you done in the past? For a novice I always suggest chartering a number of boats of the type you are interested in before buying. Remember this is a large purchase, for many people a larger one than their house, and it is harder to sell.

3) How tied to a multihull are you? There are advantages to both multi and mono hulls. If you don't understand those very well you could be led down a bad path choice.

[wannabeboater]

1) The max would be about $500,000, thats why i am looking at used boats also.
2) Not that much, but when i'm starting i will have a family/friend on board with a lot of experience, and i plan are chartering when it comes very close to the buy.
3)I'm very tied because of speed, space, and luxury, I like monohulls, but i like catamarans a lot more. I have road on tri's,cat's, and mono's and i like cat's the most.
for now the "best" boat would be a cat, when the time for a monohull comes, then i'll get one, but today is today.

[Alan M.]

That's a lovely sail, that we completed earlier this year. Did you leave from Bamaga or Weipa.

Regards Bruce.

From Bamaga/Seisia. Yep it was a nice sail.

[whoosh]

FIRST
YOU have to be totally up front and honest here

1-- do you have the money
if you are just pissing abt, you are wasting our time, and money
WE ARE here to help BUT?

[apex1]

Here it is =] Do you like it?
Should i add detail anywhere?
its my first sketch ever, enlarge it and it looks better

The sketch, as other designs shown or mentioned here shows a severe disadvantage: forward slanting windows. Looks very "speedy" but is not practical on a passagemaking boat. Imagine the heatload under these windows! Now imagine the extra tank you build in just to keep your AC units running full time! There are several safety issues on top of that!

[rayaldridge]

I think he was joking, or at least I hope so. But, Chris White's Atlantic 42 is within his budget.

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/atlantic42/photos/12.jpg

It doesn't have those heat-trap windows on the pilothouse.

[Manie B]

TRUE

So, take care who tells you what! Especially here, where you sometimes find more opinions than experience, this was a perfect example

FALSE

its my first sketch ever, enlarge it and it looks better

you cant draw - and you dont know what you want

[wannabeboater]

Thanks manie, i didn't think i was that bad.
And i have came down to a couple of boats. this thread was for opinions on boats, not discriminating.

[apex1]

I think he was joking, or at least I hope so. But, Chris White's Atlantic 42 is within his budget.

It doesn't have those heat-trap windows on the pilothouse.
Straight vertical is different ray..........

Ok at least we have a rough idea about the budget now! The Lagoon cats at aroung the 44ft are in that ballpark too and they have really vertical windows. The boat shown above has´nt!
I was told by our wannabeboater that he is familiar with ambient temperatures of about 90° F.

My reply:

>>>I guess you are less familiar with 140°F ? Thats the temperature in the salon area after some 2-3 hrs of direct sun on those windows in the tropics! The AC unit to cool that down to a liveable temp. can easily be around 50.000 btu running almost continously! Clear?
And btw. nobody stands a heatload without noticeable fatigue, but fatigue is one of the most common sources of severe troubles at sea.<<<

Here we have again a typical example why our industry is producing so much crap.
Not meant to offend you wannabe.;)
The average buyer has no idea what he wants. He has seen some pictures and some boats, has heard some stories and some speech and now has a broad idea what would be the best for him, or better, he has a preconception.
Next he contacts dealers, where he gets fed with more preconceptions and marketing blabla. At the end he buys a boat (does´nt matter which one, all are the wrong ones). That is the one he liked the appearance best, nothing else.
Never in his odyssee one came up and asked him for the real requirements, the real load, real cruising grounds, the time he "in fact" spends aboard, etc. etc.!
The book of requirements was never written, and with no one to ask him the right questions he was unable to write it himself. He could not know his requirements exactly (or how to refine them, in balance with boatbuilding restrictions, a budget and demands), so, the styling departement has won the race, his bank is happy and the sailing community soon has another low priced boat to choose from.
This procedure has to be repeated several times until real life has tought our poor victim what he really wants, and how to achieve this! Now he buys his sixth boat (a capable, seagoing vessel, slow but safe and comfortable) and the industry is fine on the profit the other five brought out.

Lay back mate, dream your dream, then contact a skilled builder, honest NA or at least a very old bluewater sailor and try to bring your requirements on a napkin!

Then choose a boat......................................................

Regards
Richard

[wannabeboater]

Thank you Apex, i've thought it over, and now think it's foolish just for the looks. I do like the lagoon 44 and might even be able to find a 50 in the range, i understand how the vertical windows help and like to be able to see so much around. I know thats based on looks, but do any of you have a lagoon, and you could vouge for the company? i'm researching it, but id really like an experienced sailors opinion.

[apex1]

Thank you Apex, i've thought it over, and now think it's foolish just for the looks. I do like the lagoon 44 and might even be able to find a 50 in the range, i understand how the vertical windows help and like to be able to see so much around. I know thats based on looks, but do any of you have a lagoon, and you could vouge for the company? i'm researching it, but id really like an experienced sailors opinion.

Do´nt get me wrong here! I would´nt talk you into the Lagoon Cat´s! I have just shown two examples of well designed boats (and the difference 6ft make!).
The builder (Beneteau) is one of the largest in the world, so at least some sort of quality standard is given. Due to the fact that the French are the most enthusiastic Cat lovers in the world, they have some national competence (and competition) too.
But we continue to share the fur!

First we have to know where the forest is...........Requirements
Than we have to know if there is a bear..............cost
We have to find a gun.....................................design
We have to shoot the bear...............................material
than we can return here to share the fur!!!..........yard

Capito??

Richard

[wannabeboater]

Requirements:35ft+, preferably 4 staterooms i'll settle with 3 and 2 heads. i'd like the kitchen on the bridgedeck.
Cost: The price is 500,000 firm.
Design, has to be seaworthy speed is a plus but safety is over speed. I'd like it to have a good amount of outdoor space for family.
Material: fiberglass preffered, but no wood.
yard?

[masalai]

Apex, You also brought me back to some semblance of common sense and I am reminded of other posts where I have suggested something along the lines - - Firstly, Where are you likely to cruise? - - - Is shallow draft important (hide up a creek amongst the mangroves during a severe storm season)? - - - Is it important to be able to stay in a marina (beam and length considerations will restrict size)? - - Are you happy to anchor in the shallows (cat/tri) of sheltered bays (inshore of all the myriad mono's requiring 6 ~10 ft of water)? Do you plan making major passages? Are you prepared to wait till a "window of opportunity" opens to allow an easy run, or are time limited so must go when you declare? Are you prepared to island hop in short easy stages, following a circuitous route of fair weather and seasonality? What is your style of cruising? - To do the major passages, or "gunkhole" and explore almost every bay and estuary?

Answering all these questions and more will help determine the type of boat you need to achieve your way of life.... That is how I made my choice... My cruising interests include exploring the coast of Australia between Brisbane in the East around the top end to Geraldton in the West as well as Melanesian Islands and down to NZ possibly... Mostly in short and easy day passages where possible, but with a capacity to do a 10 day passage in the "window of opportunity" of assured fair weather, else the long way round in season...

Other factors include, are you a collector of stuff to store on your boat - If so then most likely a cat is out as performance is severely inhibited by weight, and it may be best to acquire a design that is amenable to carrying lots of stuff - like a heavy displacement mono - A variation of the traditional Chinese junk has been used by several cruisers - The best I saw was an 70? year old American/Canadian lady who carried an extensive library of books (about 2000kg or more) with a "magic hippy mural" across the stern:D:D. - She ran (was) the Pacific & Islands HF net in the late 70's to early 80's...

These are GENERALITIES and can be adjusted within some designs but... Boat design is a compromise between several competing and exclusive criteria, LOA is determined by a need to access marinas = shorter... seakindliness and potential "speed" demands more length... comfort and load carrying = +beam and draft, - hide up a creek excludes draft, - berth up in a marina limits beam... and so the list goes on... It is cheaper if you can accept an existing design, KNOWING its limitations and advantages... As has been mentioned in this thread several times - Go out and charter several different styles of boat, as experience increases make yourself available as delivery crew (often no pay, fully found on board and cheapest return fares paid back to start point), and that may broaden your experience in areas where chartering is not available... - Then come back and ask additional questions...

Wood and grp go well together, do not knock wood of the build materials list... Reduce complexity 2 heads are not necessary and a burden on otherwise useful capacity, berths instead of "staterooms" it is a f*&^% boat for goodness sake not a gin palace or 5 star + hotel (or am I mistaken here?) in 35 ft? you jest surely, galley up is "nice and friendly for the cook - or convenient in solo sailing? but does restrict social space for "sundowners".... Seaworthy where? - I would be very reluctant to do an open-waters-long-passage in a 35' cat, but sheltered waters island hopping - depending on design... If you have the cash in US$ then a 40' something Beneteau Lagoon may be worthy of a look - second hand there are quite a few have a look here http://www.yachthub.com.au/ (click on <boats for sale> <used boats> and use the length / categories to browse through (I think there is a currency converter too)... There must be several hubs of boats for sale in USA?

[apex1]

Requirements:35ft+, preferably 4 staterooms i'll settle with 3 and 2 heads. i'd like the kitchen on the bridgedeck.
Cost: The price is 500,000 firm.
Design, has to be seaworthy speed is a plus but safety is over speed. I'd like it to have a good amount of outdoor space for family.
Material: fiberglass preffered, but no wood.
yard?

Thats a whishlist, or a broad boatdescription. And why not wood? In most cases when it comes to affordable leightweight builds the by far best coice! Be open minded!

Ok, I said I do´nt like to do that online. I will not reply on any comment of the naysayers, armchairsailors, or biased to one design guys.

1-- how many people max. for weekend cruising ? Overnight?
2-- how many Adults / children on passages? Age of children?
3-- children have to be taught aboard? Internet access at sea?
4-- toys (sailboards, watercraft) for children?

5-- longest passages planned, area and duration?
6-- "home" cruising area?
7-- high latitude cruising to be likely? in % of time
8-- tropical criusing grounds to be likely? in % of time
9-- "real cooking" required or US food on average? The latter means deep freeze and microwave of sufficient size but galley is decoration.
10- gas or electric cooking?
11- toilet and shower en suite?
12- watermaker/s ? sufficient, comfortable, opulent?
13- entertainment system/s ? same as above...

14- tender/s? Rib, inflatable, outboard, rowing, sail?
15- engines? sufficient to opulent? The less skilled the crew, the more u use them!
16- generator ship? or battery ship? Photovoltaic planned?
17- marina useage? quite often, or more sitting at anchor?


Just 17 of about 150 points I would discuss with a client before the first sketch is made! During such discussion (which cannot be done properly by mail), you come closer and closer to a final design. But, of course there are many many trade offs during that so named design spiral! Many wishes have to be sacrificed, some dreams will not come true.

So, whether you buy or build, this process of finding and outsourcing your requirements is the same. At the end you have a boat thats fits you to some extend (never a perfect one). The material of choice can be part of such spiral (and usually is), but thats at the end.

You might be surprised but it´s true, I have seen several prospective owners coming with a "demand" of a performance sailor, leaving (happy) with a displacent motorcruiser. (not to talk you into another sort of biased opinion)

Regards
Richard

Mas and Stu: you type too fast for me!

[masalai]

Whhhaaaat? :D:D:D My paragraph was started your post arrived, and first part was uploaded thence corrections and additions for another half hour? so 45+ minutes to type that? ??? :D:D:D all praise gleefully accepted... Your reasoned presentation is more worthy of praise...

[whoosh]

build a cat, are you stark raving:))
http://www.yachtworld.com/tuimarine/tuimarine_3.html
as I said I spent weeks down in BVI loking for an import opp, cats where not for sale then
the 50 foot monos ddi not have the fuel or water to get to the nearest Pacific Island
you could make money on some of these

[wannabeboater]

1.Weekend cruising would be 10 overnight 8 at the most.
2.On Passages 2 adults 3 children 7,9,13
3. Yes, we would have an online school, and also have backup text.
4. Depending on the trip, crossing the sea, no. But we would have a dingy and 2-3 kayaks
5. Longest passage would be Atlantic, and i'm not sure how the trips go but i'd like to hug the coast until i can cross to aus.
6. ocean, atlantic, gulf of mexico (shallow) and the carribean
7-8. No, high latitude, and tons of tropic.
9. Actual cooking, i need a galley big enough to cook meals with a couple of sides.
10. Electric cooking, i will place solar panels, and probably have a generator on board
11.I dont need it in a suite but close would be nice.
12.Watermaker, yes, and not opulent but comftorable.
13.I would have a flatscreen tv and movies on the bridgedeck and laptops for each one of us (5)
14.I would have a dhingy with an engine and paddles, as i said earlier, there would also be an inflatable kayak.
15. There would be engines, but just medium fuel efficient ones, i would use in ports/docking and when needed.
16. I believe i already answered i would have a generator?
17.barely any marina useage, mostly at anchor.
Hope that helps =]

[apex1]

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp?slim=quick&currency=USD&units=Feet&seo=0&checked_boats=1958218&boat_id=1958218&back=/core/boats/2006/Lagoon-440-Catamaran---Owners-Version-1958218/Key-West/FL/United-States&boat_id=1958218

Just one of many. Interesting to read that the owner consideres a trade = Trawler!

[whoosh]

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp?slim=quick&currency=USD&units=Feet&seo=0&checked_boats=1958218&boat_id=1958218&back=/core/boats/2006/Lagoon-440-Catamaran---Owners-Version-1958218/Key-West/FL/United-States&boat_id=1958218

Just one of many. Interesting to read that the owner consideres a trade = Trawler!

cats do not suit all, they have a motion that I for one can not live with, they joggle

[masalai]

A big cheap second hand mono sail or power running in "displacement mode" only and maybe a staysail of so, or cut down on the need to run a hotel/motel ..... and have so many domestics and learn to make well of less... end for me...

[wannabeboater]

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/photoGallery.jsp?slim=quick&currency=USD&units=Feet&seo=0&checked_boats=1958218&boat_id=1958218&back=/core/boats/2006/Lagoon-440-Catamaran---Owners-Version-1958218/Key-West/FL/United-States&boat_id=1958218

Just one of many. Interesting to read that the owner consideres a trade = Trawler!
I like it but still not sure how seaworthy/safe it is, looking for testimonials.

[apex1]

cats do not suit all, they have a motion that I for one can not live with, they joggle

Me too Stuart, me too. I do´nt like the harsh or unpredictable acceleration. I have a bit a difficulty to describe it, but even in good conditions I do´nt feel much comfortable on a CAT. A mono can roll and pitch and yaw ´til the whole crew is knocked down, I do´nt bother.

Mas
you made a valuable point there! Probably we end up with a good performing mono. And who knows at 500k that could be a very capable passagemaker (even under motor), right Stu?

[apex1]

I like it but still not sure how seaworthy/safe it is, looking for testimonials.

What? the 44 Lagoon? Some have made it round as far as I know.

[whoosh]

Me too Stuart, me too. I do´nt like the harsh or unpredictable acceleration. I have a bit a difficulty to describe it, but even in good conditions I do´nt feel much comfortable on a CAT. A mono can roll and pitch and yaw ´til the whole crew is knocked down, I do´nt bother.

Mas
you made a valuable point there! Probably we end up with a good performing mono. And who knows at 500k that could be a very capable passagemaker (even under motor), right Stu?

the market is flooded with good usable craft, thats why I chose to design something thats not available readily
I put 2000l of fuel in and 1600 water because I know that that is a huge issue
and a motor that does not drink fuel Diesel as you well know, lasts forever, does not deteriorate like petrol can
So our boat may start at Le HAVRE and cruise through to Med, not having to top off the fuel
Then say if you went through Bg you or Slo you could top off the fuel at lower rates
Or someone could go from Sydney to Cairns not worrying about fuel
Although the entry on the boat does not suit big choppy seas

[wannabeboater]

What? the 44 Lagoon? Some have made it round as far as I know.

Ok, i'm looking into them, i really like them.

[apex1]

1.Weekend cruising would be 10 overnight 8 at the most. Possible
2.On Passages 2 adults 3 children 7,9,13 maybe + one "trainer"
3. Yes, we would have an online school, and also have backup text. 180Wh for 6 hrs.
4. Depending on the trip, crossing the sea, no. But we would have a dingy and 2-3 kayaks 14m² storage
5. Longest passage would be Atlantic, and i'm not sure how the trips go but i'd like to hug the coast until i can cross to aus. so, 2600miles min.
6. ocean, atlantic, gulf of mexico (shallow) and the carribean hot, shallow
7-8. No, high latitude, and tons of tropic. no diesel heater
9. Actual cooking, i need a galley big enough to cook meals with a couple of sides. 300kg min. 1200Wh for 120minutes
10. Electric cooking, i will place solar panels, and probably have a generator on board you will have two already
11.I dont need it in a suite but close would be nice.
12.Watermaker, yes, and not opulent but comftorable. 4000Wh day, coupled
13.I would have a flatscreen tv and movies on the bridgedeck and laptops for each one of us (5) 600Wh for 5 hrs.
14.I would have a dhingy with an engine and paddles, as i said earlier, there would also be an inflatable kayak.
15. There would be engines, but just medium fuel efficient ones, i would use in ports/docking and when needed. depends on skills sailing!
16. I believe i already answered i would have a generator? yes, two
17.barely any marina useage, mostly at anchor. Generator ship!
Hope that helps =]

Ja, that was at least a start! I´ll check the EL. loads and possible arrangements tomorrow.
Richard

[apex1]

the market is flooded with good usable craft, thats why I chose to design something thats not available readily
I put 2000l of fuel in and 1600 water because I know that that is a huge issue
and a motor that does not drink fuel Diesel as you well know, lasts forever, does not deteriorate like petrol can
So our boat may start at Le HAVRE and cruise through to Med, not having to top off the fuel
Then say if you went through Bg you or Slo you could top off the fuel at lower rates
Or someone could go from Sydney to Cairns not worrying about fuel
Although the entry on the boat does not suit big choppy seas

You know Stu, my next boat (maybe my last), long, slender, tankage ´til ultimo and a beefy, slow Diesel with a CPP. You know which one (no, not the KTM 19, the 23ltr Lugger is available). Good freeboard and a fine entry, and let the good times roll.

Richard

[wannabeboater]

If you have more questions i'll happily answer, whatever moves the search forward.

[slonez]

I would suggest that if you don't have experience with a catamaran it might not be a best first choice. They can get you in trouble by going faster than it should and then you hit a wave wrong and pitchpole. I won't say there aren't some out there but if you're taking kids along I'd stick with a monohull. Slower but safer. Have you looked at a CSY44? They aren't made any more but were used for bareboat charter in the Carribean and so had the amenities that are nice (like a big freezer) and very heavy and stable. I think your desire to go 20 knots is unrealistic and anything would be lucky to get 10knots. I crossed the Pacific and got an average of 4 knots over 29 days.

A catamaran might hit 20 knots in perfect conditions but there is a big difference between racing and cruising. Slow down and enjoy the trip. Good luck.

[rayaldridge]

I don't agree that monohulls are safer than cats. Maybe if the monohull is unsinkable, but there aren't many of those.

It seems to me that it's easier to sink a monohull than it is to capsize a cruising cat, but even so, that's not why cats are safer. They're safer because they take better care of the crew. The biggest danger offshore, statistically speaking, is Man Overboard. It's easier to fall off a heeled, rolling mono than a flat-sailing stable cat.

[wannabeboater]

slonez, that was my point, in the right conditions i would like to be the peak speed over 15 kts, otherwise slow&steady wins the race, i understand what your saying but im already at that point. I know the dangers and thats the reason why i want a big and steady cat, i do have the need for speed, but not in this form, i won't risk my life or my families. Another great point for safety, especially if theres kids on board-rayalridge

[apex1]

I don't agree that monohulls are safer than cats.


Please resist to start another (the #1029) dispute Cat versus Mono!


Wannabe, lookup Fontaine Pajot too, another experienced French designer.
http://www.aeroyacht.com/FountainePajot/Sailing/43/Overview.htm

[slonez]

I would be the last to start a cat vs. mono argument. I enjoy them both. I was just suggesting that if you haven't experienced adverse weather in the cat it might not be as user friendly where a mono will take care of itself better in spite of what action you might take. I would do a crossing in either tomorrow, all things being equal. No argument. Sorry. I have a 16' inboard electric tugboat designed by Berkley Eastman. A CanDoEZ. I love it and it gets lots of attention but it is "slonez".

[wannabeboater]

Good point slonez, i love monohulls, but for now cats are on the top of my list

[slonez]

Have you read the book "Sailor's Multihull Guide to the World of Cruising Catamarans and Trimarans" by Charles Kanter and Kevin Jeffrey? It was printed in 1994 but you should be able to find it. I don't want to take anything away from other designers but this book would give you a world of ideas and help you decide what you really want. Hope you can find it.:)

[wannabeboater]

Thank you, next time i'm at the mall i'll check Barnes and Noble.

[apex1]

So, I post a Excel sheet (uploaded by another member in another thread) here. There you can play a bit with your el. loads and requirements.
You will notice, that the Fridge and AC units are the main loads, and that a PV array ist not sufficient to handle these loads. You therefore have a "generator ship" with some additional PV array and batterie storage capacity.

[wannabeboater]

Thanks apex ill check it out.

[slonez]

Thanks, Apex
It's hard to get accurate facts and this spread sheet lays it out nicey.

I can only say that I would minimize power consumption by scratching the AC, TV, Microwave, some lights, and use low power refrigeration and try to get along without many things that would normally be refrigerated.

Add a reverse osmosis water maker for fresh water for drinking, cooking, and final rinse washing only. Catch rain water when possible. Many would not like to do without these amenities but I find they aren't missed as much as you think. It's just another way of life and you use small well placed fans only when and where needed and you adjust your day to the daylight hours.
Radar would only be used after dark. Different strokes for different folks.

Guten Tag
slo'n'EZ

[apex1]

Ahhh, I see, you got it!
Ship is just a synonym for compromise!

There will be many more to come up.

[wannabeboater]

I like the FP lavezzi 40 and am seriously considering it, i'd like your opinions on it and do any of you know a blog on one of them?

[schakel]

I like the FP lavezzi 40 and am seriously considering it, i'd like your opinions on it and do any of you know a blog on one of them?

The fontaine Pajot catamarans look luxurious but they aren't as fast and graceful as the Outremer. http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/

You can buy them second hand in Europe and then sail the transatlantic from Europe to Azoren to Caribean back to where you live Saves a lot of money and it's a nice trip.

Here are 9 Outremers second hand: [url]http://www.multihullworld.com/results.asp?type=&keywords=outremer&minprice=0&berths=&maxprice=&length=&x=26&y=10[url]http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/
Ohh.. and the name Outremer is derived from " Outre Mer (French)" like in being in the full ocean and not derived from " Out extremer" as I first thought. But both ways of explaining the name are applicable.

[wannabeboater]

ty i'll check them out, and theres a lavezzi on youtube going 22 kts, on a delivery.

[Crag Cay.]

500k should get you a reasonable Catana on the used market. They have a decent mix of performance, safety and usability for cruising cat.

[wannabeboater]

I like them also, now i think i have a few options now time to compare =]
Outremer40-43? models they've changed
Fountaine Pajot lavezzi 40
lagoon 440

[apex1]

The fontaine Pajot catamarans look luxurious but they aren't as fast and graceful as the Outremer. http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/

You can buy them second hand in Europe and then sail the transatlantic from Europe to Azoren to Caribean back to where you live Saves a lot of money and it's a nice trip.

Here are 9 Outremers second hand: [url]http://www.multihullworld.com/results.asp?type=&keywords=outremer&minprice=0&berths=&maxprice=&length=&x=26&y=10[url]http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/
Ohh.. and the name Outremer is derived from " Outre Mer (French)" like in being in the full ocean and not derived from " Out extremer" as I first thought. But both ways of explaining the name are applicable.

Jesss, another French design, more power, less comfort, same quality. As I mentioned above, the French are the multi lovers and builders. Almost the whole cat charter fleet worldwide is French made.


>>>then sail the transatlantic from Europe to Azoren to Caribean<<<
you mean the ARC rally?

[apex1]

500k should get you a reasonable Catana on the used market. They have a decent mix of performance, safety and usability for cruising cat.

Thats true but:


http://www.windward-islands.net/crewed/picscruise/249/catana471_details.jpg

http://images.boats.com/photos/ovation/4129_102_ex1.jpg

do the pictures tell you enough?

[Alan M.]

So, I post a Excel sheet (uploaded by another member in another thread) here. There you can play a bit with your el. loads and requirements.
You will notice, that the Fridge and AC units are the main loads, and that a PV array ist not sufficient to handle these loads. You therefore have a "generator ship" with some additional PV array and batterie storage capacity.

800 Watt refrigeration? 4600Watt AC? Is it a boat or an apartment block?

[masalai]

Small American weekender? hehehehe

[apex1]

800 Watt refrigeration? 4600Watt AC? Is it a boat or an apartment block?

I changed the figures for the fridge (he will not have 6), the AC maybe too small though! What is 4,6kW? 16.000 btu... that does´nt cool down a cruiseship.

But nice to see, you do´nt sleep.;)

[Richard Woods]

I have been a way sailing on my catamaran for a few days (something everyone on this forum should do at least once a week!) On my return I was surprised by the number of posts in just a few days.

Some aren't helpful. Telling you to get a monohull is like telling someone on a travel forum who asks about flying to go by train as it is statistically safer.

I have my own questions, a comment and a couple of suggestions

Questions first:
Will your children be considered "crew" or "passengers"? If the former then the boat must be sized so they can be useful. If the latter then the boat must be sized so you can single hand at all times.
How long do you plan to be on board before flying home? You won't be sailing much during the hurricane season in the tropics, so will you go home, land travel or stay on board??
How long do you plan to cruise for? How long do you plan on keeping the boat? Is it a one year sabbatical or several years or "for ever"? Will you stop sailing if any of your family don't like it?

Comment: You say you want performance. Yet you haven't said anything that bears that out. I would have listed as requirements at least some of the following:
A boat that allows you to see all the sails (including spinnaker) on both tacks. Harken deck gear. A triradial spectra mainsail as standard. Able to reef safely from the cockpit singlehanded when sailing on either tack. You get the idea?

Suggestions:

You stop reading this forum and instead look at the ones offering crewing positions and something like Latesail.com to get on some charters on different multihulls this summer. Then in the winter you (and your family) will have a better idea of what you really want. Many people are happy to take guests out for a daysail, especially if it allows them to extol the virtues of their own boat.

I would also suggest you go to John Lombardi's yard in Virginia. There is a Atlantic 42 and 55 there, maybe also a 48. Also a mile away is the second Transit 38, one that John helped build.

Best wishes

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[wannabeboater]

For your questions: they are passengersm but may help out as we teach them.
I plan on being board for 1 year at the most.
Stay on board during hurricane season, hopefully i can get out before it occurs.
I plan on keeping it until i want bigger and better, or just don't enjoy it.
If my family doesn't like it i will singlehand a lot letting them do their own thing on the boat unless they choose otherwise.