Aluminum Hull - Advice Needed

[We're Here]

After finding nothing specific to my question, I'm hoping to tap into the forum's enormous resources for help.

I'm considering a 25-year old sportfishing boat built of aluminum plate by a small builder now gone. I hope to inspect the boat next week for the first time but I have reason to believe that the basis for an enormous refit done three or four years ago was the result of a fire.

I have seen a copy of a survey done before the refit was completed and there is no mention of a fire or any issues that could be attributed to a fire. I also realize that aluminum is fully capable of being destroyed (or possibly just compromised) in a conflagration.

Given the circumstances, a boat that has possibilities for me but one that could have some fire-related issues, what would my next logical step be (run for the offering and don't look back, bring in another surveyor, or ...)?

One other issue that came as a surprise to me. The broker just informed me that in order to allow a surveyor to inspect the boat, I have to make a 10% escrow payment before he'll be allowed aboard. Is this typical of the process? I realize that in this economy (and this late into the boat-selling season) that this policy probably doesn't amount to much but I'd like to get a feel as to whether this is generally an industry-standard or something else.

Thanks for bearing with this lengthy post. WH

[marshmat]

Hi WH,

It sounds to me like you need an expert opinion. (ie, not me.) You need your own surveyor, one who reports to you alone. He/she should be someone who is experienced with aluminum construction- someone who knows how to tell a good weld from a compromised one, and how to identify the subtle indications of heat damage. (As well as being able to find all the usual trouble spots relating to seacocks, engines, wiring, etc.)

A surveyor who mainly deals with fibreglass and/or wood hulls may do a great job reviewing the systems, but to catch any hidden fire damage, you need someone who knows aluminum. If you're seriously considering it, and can't find an aluminum boat specialist, consider getting a professional in a related field- maybe a non-destructive testing guy, or a master welder, or a metallurgist, as well as the normal yacht surveyor.

Now, I've never heard of a broker demanding an escrow payment before the client can survey the boat. But I'm a bit out of the loop on such issues- maybe this is common practice in some areas (but it still rings wrong, to me). Surely, some other folks have talked to more brokers/dealers than I have, and would know what's normal....

[mydauphin]

Marshmat advice is good. I will go further. You need to have someone check the thickness and type of metal. There were many many AL built from the wrong aluminum, or wired incorrectly or wrong paint etc... AL are not very forgiving to idiots doing to them the wrong thing. Like running copper pipes or bronze thru hulls. Who made the boat, start there. Then check bilges, fairing if any, Welds for signs of corrosion. Was it a Striker?

I love aluminum boats, but you have read and study a lot to understand them. I will send you more info later.

[Ad Hoc]

..in addition to that above, if you are requested to provide a down payment of 10% just to inspect, walk away.

[whoosh]

it s normal to ask for 10% if you want to make offer on the boat, this is then an offer SUBJECT to survey
However if they will not let you look at the boat the way you want, walk away
You could say to the broker, I just want a friend to look, or something of this nature
I have learnt, to my great cost, not believe anything you hear from a broker, unless of coarse you know him personally
When you do choose a surveyer , make sure he KNOWS aluminium, preferable to get a builder with considerable knowledge in construction of such craft
Being a sportfisher, it is probably quite fast?
Construction comes into play a lot as does the ENTRY on faster boats
you can contact me , I am happy to advise, no cost:))

[We're Here]

Let me respond in order to those who kindly lent a hand:

MM ... The older report was done by a well-respected, area surveyor but I don't know if he had any aluminum expertise. A refundable, escrow deposit struck me as odd too as I doubt that anyone would consign a survey if they weren't moderately interested.

MD ... It isn't a Striker. It was built by a nearly unknown New England shop with considerable marine (but not necessarily boatbuilding) experience. I have reason to believe that there are no welding and/on material issues but that'll be confirmed independently before I reach for the checkbook. I too have long admired aluminum boats.

AH ... I'm prepared to treat the broker like a gentleman or like a car / aluminum siding salesman - his choice. In the end, it's the seller, not the broker who makes the "real" rules.

WH ... Twin diesels with a combined total of 650 hp. About 22 / 25 (cruise / WOT). I am somewhat taken aback over the number of marine surveyor "associations"! Let's see, why would that be ....? Oh well, finding a qualified surveyor with aluminum knowledge in the Philadelphia area may be the greatest short-term challenge that I face!

[whoosh]

Um, thats lots boogey
Entry is very important, the aft deadrise can be quite flat to aid get up and plane
but the entry needs be deep vee, not spoonshape, or the boat will pound and you will not achieve good speed in head seas plus your wife will refuse to come on the picnic
If it was a big expensive boat, you could fly me over!! But then again your beer is not very drinkable
Good luck
you can only email me through my website, as I forgot the email address I joined with!!

[Ad Hoc]

we're here

"...Oh well, finding a qualified surveyor with aluminum knowledge in the Philadelphia area may be the greatest short-term challenge that I face.."

Ask DNV or LR lastly ask ABS (they are not as experinced in ally as the others), they can tell you if they have anyone local.

[apex1]

It should not be too difficult to find a surveyor for just the ally structure. Almost all classification societies (I think all) make survey at industrial plants too. So go for Ad Hoc´s advice.
A deposit prior to a survey is UNcommon and I would smell a rat. If it comes to testruns the things change. Usual are, proof of fund, deposit, or a short term charter rate refundable on purchase.

Regards
Richard

[We're Here]

AH ... Are DNV and LR members of this forum (if so, I'd love to hear from them)? I am visiting the boat for the first time next week and will post my impressions. One thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that the deck of this welded alloy boat is cored f/g. I guess that my thinking is confined to the "envelope" because I just can't come up with a plausible reason why.

[apex1]

DNV = Det Norske Veritas
LR = Lloyds Register of Shipping
both are classification societies and not members of any website.

And a wild guess why a aluminium boat has a GRP deck is: the original Al structure was destroyed by fire (as you mentioned) and replaced by plastic crap.

[We're Here]

Richard, I was hoping to rule this possibility out but alas ...

I am very much looking forward to sticking my head below deck and seeing how this works! I have reason to believe that this was a very well made boat but if an aluminum deck was lost to a fire, I'd venture a guess that the portions of the hull (sides and bottom) adjacent to the fire were saved due to the heat sink effect of the ocean and the fact that aluminum is an exceedingly efficient conductor of heat/cold.

Thanks for the classification society lesson!

[wardd]

My 2 cents worth, aluminum when heated beyond a certain point develops a discolored mottled affect that is hard to polish out completely.

any sign of that indicates excessive heat

[mydauphin]

Aluminum boats, like most boats are designed as a system. If the deck is missing and was replaced with a Fiberglass deck then the whole boat is compromised. An Aluminum boat more than most boats is designed to be light and strong, you just can't remove stuff or move it around without altering structure severely.

[PAR]

I'm not willing to jump to the assumption that the deck is compromising the boat. I can see a cored deck as a less costly, similarly light weight alternative to aluminum and wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, frankly suggesting such is at least irresponsible, if not amateurish.

The bottom line is two fold. The first is to get the broker on the same page. You don't need an escrow account, though they do like to see a person is capable of purchasing the vessel. This is understandable, other wise you'd have tours of every mega yacht in town to double wide renters. A simple credit check is usually sufficient. If this isn't going to go as well as the broker expects (you would know), you'll have to offer some other form of satisfaction in regard to being able to afford the yacht, like a bank statement.

Second is, get the yacht surveyed. In both Philadelphia and your area there are several noted and very qualified surveyors of alloy vessels. Call your insurance company, they'll have a list in your area that they trust.

Remember the broker is looking for a sale and what ever fees he can muster out of it. Don't buy into it, he's hungry as church mouse about now, so you're in the driver's seat in this respect. He'll take just about anything, but they'll try things like "It's our company policy" or "It's customarily done thusly", etc. You can't blame a fellow for trying, but remember who's money it is, who's interest you need to keep and ultimately who's going to be responsible for the purchase. They'll get their points, but they don't have to and they know it.

[mydauphin]

If an engineer designs a truss out of 1/2 steel to hold a certain weight and force, and a third of it is removed, it can not handle the same weight and forces. Aluminum boats like an airplane or soda can are held together at all sides. Remove one side, replace it with something else and it unknown what the results are.

I work next to a marine salvage yard, and I see what they do with burnt boats. They get boats with severe burnt fiberglass, reglass and gelcoat over it and sell it. The fiberglass is all like sawdust at this point and lost most of the structural quality. Don't assume they did a good job on repairing boat, assume they did a bad job and try to prove otherwise.

[whoosh]

MSDAUPHIN thats good advice
I am not a metallurgist, but I have seen and felt hot metal:))
there is only one way really, IMO to tell if the metal has been so hot it has lost temper, and that is to take a scriber or some such thing and try scratch it, , hard, if it peels easily and soggily it may have
Unless one was used to how the metal saws, works, then this would be of little use Example, when I saw something either in the bench, or bandsaw, i can tell by the chip what hardness it is, soft metal sticks to the teeth and so onSomeone said the bottom was immersed, so it would not get hot
I guess thsi post is of little use, but it at least describes how to tell a soft or hard alloy
Sometimes(quite often actually) the mill gets it wrong, particulary on extrusions
You order a mill run, for frames, stringers and the meatal come brittle and when you try to form it breakes This is annoying paricularly when they have issued a mill cert, saying it is ie 6061 t6
Have learnt to try bending a pice now, before working it into a build
The big Euro mills always get the plate right, Perchenay , Kobi in Japan But even then I always get a mill cert and I mark on the plan where I have put each and every plate
if a boat has been locally very hot, like hot enough to worry about ,you would also expect lots of distortion

[wardd]

the scriber may not tell anything

there can be a difference between hardness and strength of a metel

[Ad Hoc]

scribing is very similar to a "standard" hardness test.

Hardness is directly proportional to the yield strength of the material.

[wardd]

but not to brittleness

and how deep is that hardness?

in lots of situations hardness may be only a few thousands deep

and we are talking about a metal that may be different than it was when first used, ie subject to being heated

[Ilan Voyager]

Be simple:

- Stay away from a yacht if it has a history like fire, hard grounding, hit by another boat etc... Good boats are like happy people, nothing to tell or explain. Would you buy a car rebuilt after being wrecked in an accident? what's the need for taking any risk?

- Mixing materials is often ill fated. So a sandwich polyester on a aluminum hull is highly suspicious, specially after a fire. It has been a fashion of plywood decks on steel yachts: not good.

- I bought some boats (never for myself...) and never a broker asked me a deposit to permit a survey and I never gave a buck before the buy, except a proof of funds. The expense of a surveyor shows by itself that you are interested. For sea trials I always managed a one day charter refundable in case of buy and I always asked the proof that the boat is insured... If the broker does not accept your reasonable conditions, forget it; you're the customer, thus the king. There are plenty of boats in sale specially in these hard times.

Do not focus on one boat.

[apex1]

I'm not willing to jump to the assumption that the deck is compromising the boat. I can see a cored deck as a less costly, similarly light weight alternative to aluminum and wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, frankly suggesting such is at least irresponsible, if not amateurish.
.

Will you grant me the right to choose Paul?;) (and I was´nt suggesting, I said wild guess!)

I still cannot see any sense in a GRP deck on a metal hull, and much less on a Alum. hull. If there was any, it was at least not related with, what I call, a good executed repair.

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Wardd

You said "..there can be a difference between hardness and strength of a metel.."

No, hardness is directly proportional to its yield strength.

"...but not to brittleness.."

Didn't say it was!

[whoosh]

there are a lot of very good yachts with timber decks and or houses My first ally yacht had a timber house
the advantages are many,
First you get a strong hull, but then you save a huge amount of time on finishing , if you use timber or glass
later I,ll dig out the pic

[wardd]

that is if the hardness is all the way through

all im saying is scratching the surface only says something about the surface

[Ad Hoc]

wardd

correct.

[apex1]

Whoosh
the deck was in question here, not the wheelhouse! And there was a suspicion of fire damage.
Wooden decks on steel boats were quite common during the first half of the last century (and ALL had problems), but that again is not the topic here. A GRP deck on a Al newbuilt would be at least a unnecessary complication and additional cost (and I doubt there are any). On a repair I call it crap, and I will not leave this point of view (maybe except the repair was done at the outer reef of Motuarohia with nothing else at hand).

Richard

[We're Here]

The broker and the owner have been quite difficult to coordinate with but it appears that tomorrow's the day. Thanks to to generous advice given here, I feel well-armed. BTW, I have come up with yet another theory regards the non-plate work deck that I'll share when I get back but at the moment I need some serious shut-eye as this is a solo drive - five hours each way plus the time spent on the boat (I'm an old fart who just can't put on the miles anymore). I will take photos but apparently they can't be posted here so specific shots should be available as an e-mail attachment should you be interested.

[Gilbert]

Just a footnote about aluminum combined with fiberglass construction. Ray Wadsworth's Kodiak Marine Construction built a herring seiner called ORDER OF MAGNITUDE that from the keel to the chine was half inch aluminun plate and from the chine up was fiberglass. It also had a 3,000 horsepower gas turbine and a diesel engine coupled to a water jet, an either or propulusion mode not both engines at the same time. Google it if you are interested.

[whoosh]

Just a footnote about aluminum combined with fiberglass construction. Ray Wadsworth's Kodiak Marine Construction built a herring seiner called ORDER OF MAGNITUDE that from the keel to the chine was half inch aluminun plate and from the chine up was fiberglass. It also had a 3,000 horsepower gas turbine and a diesel engine coupled to a water jet, an either or propulusion mode not both engines at the same time. Google it if you are interested.

very interesting, think outside the box
I am doing a boat now, I considered heavy ply houses, but at the end of the day I stuck with al al keel to truck
thing is with al al, your shape is ltd unless you have the skills to work in shape I should add, that these skills are not black magic at all .I could teach any reasonably competant person to wheel plates in a day Knowing where to stretch and form takes longer:))