Yanmar 6LP upside down oil filters.

[Frosty]

I have 2 Yanmar 6LP. From the day they were new it took the oil pressure 7-10 seconds to shut the alarms.

I contacted Yanmar Australia who said it is not a problem because 2 engines can not have the same problem,(oh great dignosis technique) Further communication resulted in them telling me to get a life. I love the Aussies.

The engines were also poorly panted with bolts missing holding the intercooler to the block. Never mind move on.

So I investigated myself and I found that the upside down filters drained.

Same day starting was Ok ,leave it over night and it was like an oil change needing 7-10 seconds to prime the filter, actually the filter could be spun off and nothing there.

These filters are face down (upside down) so any failure in the built in anti drain valve allowed oil to drain back to the sump.

Problem found but not solved. Yanmar insists on genuine Yanmar filters, I forget how much they were but I fell over.

If you wipe the paint of it says Toyota as the 6LP is the Toyota 1hd engine from the Toyota Landcruiser.

I have sawn many filters in half looking for good ones and they "all" drain back, not through the drain valve but through spot welds under the rubber seal flange!!!! spot welds??? how can spot welds seal?

So I don't like upside down filters. Yanmar don't think its a prob and Toyota dont seem to know about it.

7 seconds don't seem much but if you use the boat just once per day, after 9 month the engine has ran for 1/2an hour without oil pressure.

There is an answer--a remote oil filter kit that mounts a regular filter the right way up, trouble is no one does a 24 x1.5 thread kit!

Any 6 LP owners here?

[baeckmo]

Yes, 7 sec seems a bit long time, but there are other engines with "bowl-up" filters, for instance Iveco´s. And when you have to switch filters in a crowded engine space, I love the empty bowls; there is no spill, ever. But still, your time to build working pressure, sounds weird. It might be a pressure control valve that is not closing fully, meaning that some oil is returned directly to the pan. With the system empty, this could lead to excessive evacuation time.

[Frosty]

Yes some engines do have a check valve to hold the filter full.

Both engines identical problem?

The Yanmar 6LP rely solely on the anti drain valve which don't work.

The Toyota 1HD guys are screaming out for a M24 x 1.5 remote kit.

Ever made one? shouldnt be difficult to make one from the base plate of an old filter, then buy a duel filter.

[Jimbo1490]

Frosty,

Anyone with a metric screw cutting lather(prob'ly the only kind you'll find over there :) ), or even an English lathe with the proper translating gears can cut this thread for you with no problem. That nut would take an experienced machine operator no more than an hour to make as it's just a tube with a cut down area that's threaded. Very simple. If you start with square or hexagonal bar stock (very common stuff, either one) then you'll be able to turn it with a wrench later.

You already know where I'm going with this: Buy a remote filter adapter! If you get a batch of the nuts made, you can sell the kit yourself and make a few dollars or pounds or whatever you get paid in over there :D

Jimbo

[Frosty]

But??? Firstly you would need to machine and thread the filter converter take off to take an adapter to convert 24mm to say 28 to screw into the adapter.

I don't understand what the "nut "is for?

[masalai]

I will be facing a similar exercise for my little kubota 3 cyl 21 hp genset which should arrive in a week, I will post the info on my build thread when and as... If you find a solution sooner please let me know...

[Jimbo1490]

Sandwich adapters have no threads, Frosty. The whole trick is in the nut. The nut holds the thing on, carries the oil and secures the filter later. The adapter just has a smooth bored clearance hole that the nut passes right through. You should be able to take a sandwich adapter that fits diametrically and just get a nut machined to fit the oddball thread on your engine or filter. The adapters I showed you earlier from Flex-a-Lite (I believe that was the one) were this style, with a smooth bore clearance hole.

Jimbo

[TollyWally]

Would you mind either showing that again or directing me to where I could see it. I'm a picture guy. For me a picture might be worth 2000 words. :)
Thanks

[Frosty]

Ok ive seen the sandwich adapter on the Flex o lite web site.

I would have to make a plate to simulate the filter to blank the top of the adapter off.

[masalai]

All googling Flex o lite gives me is flexible sheets and glass reflective beads, anyone got the link for the oil filter adaptor?

[Jimbo1490]

Here they are right here;

http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/sandwich-adapters.html

Notice the smooth bore in the adapter casting with no threads. The nut threads over the existing threaded nipple to secure the adapter to the engine. Yes a flat plate would be needed to make this a remote adapter, but I bet with a little more searching we could find one already built that way.

Jimbo

[Jimbo1490]

Look, I found some:

http://www.livermoreperformance.com/canton_oil_adapters.html

Scroll down to see the bypass style adapter that has a nut instead of a nipple and seal surface. It's as if they took a sandwich adapter and installed the flat plate for you so you won't need to bother with that part. That is the one you want. All you will have to do is get the proper nut made at a machine shop. You may also need to bore the clearance hole for the nut larger as you nut is larger in diameter. Not rocket science, though.

Jimbo

[masalai]

Thanks Jimbo1490 - - "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jimbo1490 again." - - I tried:D:D

[TollyWally]

Thanks Jimbo,
It all becomes clear with a picture! :)

[Frosty]

See those filter plates right at the bottom? well thats basically what you have in the filter, pretty well much the same, only steel.

Take one of those and weld a pipe on the hole of the centre of the plate. Then weld a 4 inch pipe,--- say 1 inch deep onto the outside of the pate.

Make a flat plate that goes over the the top of the pipe you have just welded on with the center pipe coming out of the middle. Weld all that up and you have an adapter. You then drill and weld a fitting on the outer pipe almost next to the inlet pipe. Oil adapter finished.

This is my plan, steam pipe and fittings from the plumbers shop.

[Jimbo1490]

Frosty,

Yes, you certainly could make one this way. I found a couple on the net already made this way. They are called 'spin on adapters' since they use the threaded nipple already installed on the engine block to hold the adapter in place. These can work but be warned that they are less versatile than the 'bolt on adapter' since you don't know which way the thing is going to point once it tightens up. So you have to choose where the oil line pipe connections will be. With the bolt on style I showed you, you can point the lines in any direction you want, then tighten the nut. If you choose to make or use one of this style, I suggest that you point the oil line exit fittings down (or in your case upwards as your filter is upside-down) then once tightened in place, you can then install 90* elbows then attach the oil lines. This will give you the most versatility in placement. Still not as easy as the 'bolt-on' style adapter, but good enough.

Jimbo

[Jim_Hbar]

Frosty:

FYI - on my Toyota 1HZ (Non-turbo version of the 1HD) the oil filter face is sort of vertical on the side of the block - the filter sticks out generally horizontally, but tilted up - perhaps 30 degrees?. There are no drain-back issues, and the Toyota oil filters are over 5 times the price of generic Chevy/Ford filters from a jobber. The 6LP's must have some sort of adapter already in place, to turn the filters vertical.. Putting adapters on adapters isn't good design...

It is my understanding that the Toyota filters have double elements (one inside the other), and have much better level of filtration than most other automotive style filters out there. I would suspect the Yanmar filter is a re-labeled version of that filter.

Also, automotive style filters tend to be pure crap compared to industrial style filters, and I'd be very cautious about switching to some other "cheap" filter that doesn't offer the level of protection that the stock filtration might.

[Jimbo1490]

Mann and Wix are the best filter makers in the world yet their pricing is very competitive. No need to buy overpriced OEM filters. You don't think Toyota and Yanmar actually make their own filters, do you? GM was the only OEM still making their own, but even they spun off (wow, a oil filter pun :D) the AC/Delco division, so not true anymore.

The parts/support divisions of the major OEM's including Toyota, make more money than the manufacturing end. One reason is their parts are so overpriced. Yet owners may be compelled to use them while under warranty.

Jimbo

[Frosty]

If I can spin the filter off and there is nothing in it, then thats is the problem.

I have removed the filter washed it and experimented with it on the bench by blowing in air and the spot welds under the sealing ring leak , as does all the filters I have checked. If I super glue the spot weld ring it is much better.

You saying you dont have a problem and the fact that I would not believe that Toyota would put up with such a thing is concerning, however the problem lies with draining filters on my engine.

The marine version has exactly the same angle of filter as does yours yet its on an oil cooler that is alluminium and can be removed (horrible idea)

There are restrictor valves in that filter block which I feel balance the pressure of oil traveling through the cooler or the filter as it is free to go both ways if it wants.

I can get no information on this prob so I have to go it myself and that is a proper up facing filter which will cure the prob.

Yes the Toyota filters have a double stage affair thing ,--its nothing flash mostly bull shit having a fine and a course filtration, an excuse or reason depending how you look at it to charge ridiculous prices.

Google up oil filters and the whole world is at present totally pissed off with crap filters.

Making an adaptor to get the oil up to a dual filter holder with some cheap Fram PH8 or the like seems to me to be better than what I have.


My engines are 5 years old with 170 hours on them ,--no thats not a typo. I have changed oil 3 times and its still like gold color.I hav'nt changed it for 2 years.

I Crank the engines for 10 seconds with stop button in, until I release it. It will fire immediately, this cures the prob and I get lights out in 2 seconds.



Yanmar insisted that I use Yanmar filters and that this was my problem. I told then that the engines were delivered with Toyota filters on them. The paint job the Aussie supplier made did not cover the Toyota printing. It took 3 days to reply to that one, then they told me the truth, the engines were Toyota based. 54,000 ausie dollars for 2, and then they told me to get a life.

Sorry to go on about it but now you know the whole story. Wont be buying Yanmar again.

What can i do but fit an external kit.

[Jim_Hbar]

Jimbo:

I'm a professional mechanical engineer with 30 years experience in industrial machine design, and have specified, purchased and commissioned many hydraulic systems over the years - for 10 years, it was approx. 50% of my work load. I know a little bit about filtration.. And my point is, if the manufacturer(s) do not publish Beta ratios about their filtration, supported by independent testing, any comparison is just speculation and opinion.

Frosty:
I'm not sure exactly what Yanmar does to the engines to marinize them - the intake and exhaust manifolds, external oil heat exchanger, and inter-cooler are definitely different (along with the HP output). Stock from Toyota, both the 1HD and the 1HZ have an oil/coolant heat exchanger in the side of the block - perhaps Yanmar changes these out also..

The Landcruisers shut the engines down if the oil pressure does not build quick enough - something like 10 seconds IIRC. I've never had this happen to me, even starting at -30C - thus my comment about drain-back not being a problem on my engine. I'm not saying it isn't a problem on yours. One of tricks the landcruiser community uses is a switch in the oil pressure sensor wire, to serve as an anti-theft device. The vehicle will fire and run, then shut-down.

I pointed out the double level of filtration of the Toyota filters, in case you did not know about it. I suspect it is handy in the outback, and increases the dirt capacity of the filter before it clogs and by-passes. Keeps the big chunks from clogging the fine filtration. Personally, I haven't seen many boats that operate in dusty environments all of the time, so keeping the rocks out of the engine is a much easier task in the marine environment, and likely negates the need for the coarse filtration.

Are you aware of Accusump systems? They can prime the engine before it cranks, greatly reducing wear.. However, I believe your remote filtration, vertical filter system is the first thing to do - it has the added benefit of keeping the mess under control during changes, and puts the filters where you can get at them.

It's a pity about Yanmar's response - those 1HD's are just about the sweetest running diesel made.

[Jimbo1490]

My personal recommendations on filtration were posted earlier to another thread:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diesel-engines/need-help-finding-oil-filter-relocation-kit-27898.html#post281477

Jimbo

[Frosty]

This thread and it participants has woken me up. I e mailed Yanmar Europe yesterday and got a reply. They asked for confirmation i was using the Yanmar filter ( the one at 48 pounds each).

I said I was using the Toyota 90915 30002 that was in the engine when it was delivered. They know --I know_ and Toyota know that it is a 90915 30002 repainted.

Evidence of this is on the internet especially Yanmar forums where guys have wiped paint off to find 90915 30002.

Its gone quite again now, but I cant wait to hear what they say.

[kapnD]

A solution would be to hold the fuel solenoid shut while cranking until oil pressure comes up, then allow fuel to flow, engine to start.
I know this isnt the solution you are looking for, but it can get you by without engine damage until you find something better.
If you do use a remote, it would be easy to install an inline check valve to insure the oil will not drain back reguardless of where you mount the filters.
Fleetguard offers some real top quality filters, and the guys at Seaboard Marine can probably steer you to the right stuff. They are also Yanmar dealers, and are probably already familiar with the problem.

[FAST FRED]

The best friend anyone can have is the guy at a big auto
parts store.

FRAM , and others have a huge cross reference catalog

First look up the engine of concern and find the STOCK filter the mfg or marinizer specs.

Write down all the details , base size , diameter thread size , check walve whatever is specked.

Then go to the back of the catalog and using the specifications you will get a list of all the other filters that are a direct match.

Many times a taller, longer filter can be found that is otherwise an identical match.

If you hace the room , bigger IS better.

On an antique Volvo the V filter was a tiny little thing , in order to show builders a narrow engine at selection time.

The Fram Ph 8A which is used on every Ford since Henry started is a perfect , but longer fit.

$2.89 instead of $19.00 for a bigger better filter.

Sure worth 15 min digging in the the parts book!

FF

[Frosty]

Reply from Yanmar Europe,--engines OK!!!!

But,--they wont tell me how long it should take. Ive been given the run around now for 5 years. I will never ever ever buy Yanmar again.

7-10 seconds Is not ok. Yes I do crank with the stop button in. People on the dock say ---its a poor starter isnt it!!