Whats this "red stuff"

[rwatson]

This picture shows some 'red stuff' being laid with fibreglass.

I am guessing it is 'peel ply', but I have never seen it in that colour.

It features big in this site :-

http://www.voile.org/trimaran/progress/September05/september11_2005.htm

Anyone come across it ?

[gonzo]

Have you asked whoever put it there when you took the photo?

[rwatson]

Have you asked whoever put it there when you took the photo?

No reply to the email yet. He is probably out sailing :-)

[SamSam]

Not sure where you got the picture you show, but on the site you posted, the first photo says the red stuff is peel ply.

Peel ply can be just regular nylon or dacron from the fabric store, it doesn't have to be from a fiberglass supplier with an official label of 'Peel Ply'. Here's a quote from this thread....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/materials/peel-ply-14461.html

We use a peel ply commonly sold as a lining material in clothing. It's called polysheen and is typically much cheaper some peel plys sold by composite suppliers.

[SamSam]

At the end of the thread I posted above is a link to a 'Duckworks' article on how to achieve a glass smooth finish on projects without sanding and fairing, similar to using peel ply....

http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/glass/bottom.htm

[rwatson]

Thats a great technique SAMSAM. Shame it will only work on developable surfaces (not on compound curves)

[DaveJ]

After putting the peel ply, they then stick another layer of material, sealing the edges and create a vacuum and thats how vacuum baging works. Removes all the air bubbles makes the weave alot tighter and so forth. This will make the flim conform to the compound curves that aren't too drastic.

Seen it done alot on repairs of aircraft composites. Air bubbles are not good, you go up in altitude, the bubbles expand and cause delamination, and on a fast moving jet, a delamination can cause big problems.

[DaveJ]

Thinking about it more, before laying the fibre, sit the film over the shape, hit it with a heat gun and streatch to the shape it needs, let it cool, then try the vacuum bagging, just a thought.

[rwatson]

I have never seen that polyester film for sale- where would you get it from?

[SamSam]

Seen it done alot on repairs of aircraft composites. Air bubbles are not good, you go up in altitude, the bubbles expand and cause delamination, and on a fast moving jet, a delamination can cause big problems.
I saw that on a new aircraft, flying on Delta or Incontinental, I don't remember.

Just in front of the flaps, it was perfectly fine on the ground, at cruising altitude it expanded to dinner plate size and disappeared as we went down to land. I drew a picture of it, as I figured the 'authorities' would not believe me. Sure enough, the young, stupid co-pilot poo-pooed it as something he pulled out of his ass. I took the stewardess aside, gave her the picture and told her take a look when they went back up and then show it to someone that wasn't a moron.

[DaveJ]

Thats very distressing, being an aircraft technicain, hearing this sort of stuff really scares me. Nowadays due to manufacturing technicals and controls, the reason for aircraft going down has changed from being mechnical/engineering failures to human error. I'm sad to say, its the Pilot that is the biggest percentage of the human errors, to the fact that nearly 90% (don't have the exact figures but its around this) of the reason for aircraft going down is because the Pilots don't believe what they are being told by the instruments, airtraffic control or with each other. It is a huge concern with airlines, so much so that Airbus try to remove as much as possible of the pilots inputs and do every thing computer controlled.

[rwatson]

DaveJ - are any commercial planes flying with composite material wings ?

Those 'dinner plates' would be in aluminium wouldnt they ?

[CTMD]

Having spent a lot of time using boeing autoclaves for a side project 10 years ago, I'm not sure if any have full carbon wings, but lots have large carbon wing componets.

[SamSam]

DaveJ - are any commercial planes flying with composite material wings
Those 'dinner plates' would be in aluminium wouldnt they ?

There were no rivets in the wing, so I assume it was composite. I"m thinking it was airbus, but I'm not sure.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32312

George Larson, editor emeritus of Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine reported the comments of an aircraft maintenance professional in Opa Locka, Florida. After years spent dismantling dozens of large aircraft built by the major manufacturers he told Larson that, “Airbus products are the flimsiest and most poorly designed as far as airframe structure is concerned” and “The vertical fin along with the composite hinges on the rudder and elevators is the worst example of structural use of composites I have ever seen.”

[apex1]

Airbus is doing almost the complete wing in "plastic" on late models.

[DaveJ]

The Boeing 787 is first of its type where the whole aircraft is composite. That means wings, fuselage, stabilators (vertical and horizontal) everything.

Airbus and Boeing have been making hybrid composite wings for awhile now, the skin has been composite, but the structure has been metal.

Now i'm not sure what SamSam saw, i'm militry aricraft so haven't realy seen the commerical practises. But they do put a flim of some material over the leading edges to stop damage to it from cutting through the air, dirt and dust act like sand paper to the leading edges, and if they aren't protected they will wear down to failure. I've seen this protective flim, when it gets a small hole in it, it will fill up as the air is forced into it, inflating it like a ballon. When you land, no more induced air, so it goes back down.

Have alook on youtube for the 787 wing box testing.

[SamSam]

It was on the starboard main wing just a few inches in front of the flaps that go up and down to steer the plane. On the aft part of the main wing.

[Jimbo1490]

Airbus is doing almost the complete wing in "plastic" on late models.

Which model would that be? I work on 320 and 330's frequently and the wings are definitely metal. Some parts of the wings may be composite, but the basic structure (skins and spars) are riveted aluminum.

Jimbo

[Jimbo1490]

It was on the starboard main wing just a few inches in front of the flaps that go up and down to steer the plane. On the aft part of the main wing.

Sounds like the clear anti-erosion tape. They often install a product like this where the surfaces impinge to reduce wear.

Jimbo

[masalai]

peel ply is "polyester taffeta" from the fabrics trade and is an effective release to cover and roll in your fillets and taped joins. If you can find a "friendly fabric wholesaler, polyester-taffeta in 55m rolls and about 55 inches wide becomes quite cheap (put two bands of stretchy "electricians tape" around the roll close together where you need to cut off a section of the roll, say 10 inches wide, then cut with a hacksaw) - comes in lots of colours so further discounts may be had for a colour that is not moving... as the peel-ply is removed before bogging&sanding that area, sticking something else there, or painting that part of the finished product...

[rwatson]

peel ply is "polyester taffeta" from the fabrics .

Nah - you cant rely on the quality of 'taffeta' from a fabric shop for fibrglassing. I had really good results for the first two lots I bought, and the third batch stuck to the glass.

Tafeta aint tafeta all the time, it has many variants in the mix.

I only buy peel ply now, its not worth the risk.

[masalai]

If your supplier is worth his salt to assure the "polyester" is true, that is the guarantee of non-stick-ability for epoxy work... 'taffeta' is not the keyword...

[mongo75]

where can I get that plastic so I can do that to my boat? I gotta smooth out a few hundred sq ft, and would prefer to get it right the first time. Longboarding sucks!

[masalai]

Peelply is not a substitute for long-boarding, but if you have LARGE 'flatish' surfaces to smooth then look around for an air driven "helicopter" sanding device... The 4 blades rotate about 60rpm - each being about 4" x 10" and about 4" out from the centre - tried it for about 60 seconds - definitely need full coveralls, a proper-filtered-face-mask & goggles as dust everywhere, but BLOODY MAGIC:D:D:D

[apex1]

Which model would that be? I work on 320 and 330's frequently and the wings are definitely metal. Some parts of the wings may be composite, but the basic structure (skins and spars) are riveted aluminum.

Jimbo

The A 380 and A 440M have most of the wing structure (backbone, leading edge, flaps etc.) made in different composites. The 380 backbone for example is carbon comp. the "nose" is Fortron, a PPS composite, see picture. Same PPS parts are used in the A 340 models. None of the wings of these models are full composite. Even the coming A 350 and Boeing 747 are not completely composite aircraft.
so that:
The Boeing 787 is first of its type where the whole aircraft is composite. That means wings, fuselage, stabilators (vertical and horizontal) everything.

Is not correct.

Regards
Richard

[missinginaction]

At the end of the thread I posted above is a link to a 'Duckworks' article on how to achieve a glass smooth finish on projects without sanding and fairing, similar to using peel ply....

http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/glass/bottom.htm

I'd like to try this technique on the deck's I'm installing. I noticed that the author mentions .030" sheet. .030 sheet is about 1/32" thick. I think that he meant to write .003" sheet. Looking at the photos it seems more reasonable.

MIA

[masalai]

Good one SamSam - seems to work very well with ply or veneer surfaces and looks great...

[rwatson]

I'd like to try this technique on the deck's I'm installing. I noticed that the author mentions .030" sheet. .030 sheet is about 1/32" thick. I think that he meant to write .003" sheet. Looking at the photos it seems more reasonable.

MIA

Thanks for the explanation about that. I still dont know where you would buy it - supermarkets?

Make sure the surface is really developable. I have tried it with 'shirt oax materials' on slightly compound surfaces, and it left thick ridges where the plastic crinkled. Was a real pain to sand back.

Even with Peel ply, if you try to cover really big sections, you get the same problem. I now use peelply in about 1 -1.5 metre squares only.

[rwatson]

If your supplier is worth his salt to assure the "polyester" is true, that is the guarantee of non-stick-ability for epoxy work... 'taffeta' is not the keyword...

Tafetta was the 'keyword' suggested as the substitute.

What retail fabric supplier would know anything about the suitability for use with fg ?

[masalai]

RW, What I meant that it was pure polyester as that does not adhere to epoxy - as a clear plastic, or, fabric with a 'weft & warp' as opposed to 'woven' we use those little metal rollers to fair out the fillet joins and ensure no bubbles etc... We had a bit of difficulty with large areas (the copper mix for the bottom - 4 kg of fine pure copper powder mixed into a special batch of epoxy, for each hull below the waterline)...

[missinginaction]

Is this what we're looking for?

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=66&product%5Fid=20800

Or do we just want to use polyethylene sheeting like home builders use? Like this one.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=66&product%5Fid=1413

MIA

[masalai]

I got mine and it works perfectly, by allowing the "amine bloom" in the curing process to move to the outside of the taffeta to be peeled off after the curing process allows bogging/sanding/painting to proceed easily...

[SamSam]

At the end of the thread I posted above is a link to a 'Duckworks' article on how to achieve a glass smooth finish on projects without sanding and fairing, similar to using peel ply....

http://duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/glass/bottom.htmIf you look at the last photo in the article , or the one I posted in post #5, you can see the film is flattening the end of his finger as he bend s it back, so I do think he is using film .030" thick.

Here is a source for the stuff, and there are others. Google 'polyester sheet', a brand name is 'Mylar'.
http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/Mylar_Polyester_Film?gclid=CJSdv_PX0psCFQUhnAodfDtrJQ

[rwatson]

there are others. Google 'polyester sheet', a brand name is 'Mylar'.
http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/Mylar_Polyester_Film?gclid=CJSdv_PX0psCFQUhnAodfDtrJQ

Ta daaaa - mystery solved. That 'shirt box' material I bought and used was called, Mylar. I always thought it was some other kind of Plastic, not just a trade name. Its been sold by my local FG shop for years, exactly for that purpose.

Cost wise though, it was a lot dearer than those links you supplied.

The other great use for it is as a sacrfiicial mould. Lay some objects on a table, lay the Mylar on top, and apply FG. The Mylar will stay in the shape you laid it (sometimes with the help of a bit of goo on the underside) and that FG will cure with a perfectly smooth curved and fitting underside.