Step by step to design your boat!

[apex1]

Designing your own boat.........

A step by step guide for the interested amateur , beginner, novice, and absolute moron.

If you follow the step by step guide in a severe manner you should be able to design your own boat in a weekends time.

First step:
Have a computer at hand, most software related issues are better to handle if a computer is at hand.
Second step:
Pay the hefty penalty for having “Internet” acces. The Internet is a sort of worldwide acting bacteria eating preferrably time and or money. In our case both!
Third step:
Download (a “Internet” related term, you must not understand) the software “Carlson hull” from:

http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware

do not worry, it is neither FUN nor have you to share anything……and what could YOU share?

go to: http://freeship-plus.land.ru/downloadsE.html

download (now you know already how it goes) the program.

Install both of the programs in a directory that is convenient to find. So, Carlson should not be placed betweeen all your porn related “C+xxx” files!

Click the “hull.exe” file, a miracle appears, someone has made a boat shape on your screen!
That’s Ok for now, you must not fear that!

Now the intellectual part of the game starts; you have to find the “help file” and to follow strictly the advice given!
Imagine the shape of your dream boat first (hard, I know, better to digest some given opinion), then scroll through the many possible designs included in that incredible software. Choose the one that fits your rough imagination best.
Play with it (you remember the instructions?), do not save it! You will overwrite the original file (design). And who are You to overwrite others serious efforts?
Now you have a shape that fits your demand! Congrat´s. Just leave the program, your recent drawing will be saved as “default.hul”

Change to “freeship” and “import” the file you created.
Tataaa, there it appears as if it was made by a “PRO”

Do´nt play too much with it, you may destroy the nice shape, but you “must” click the “project linesplan” button, then print it !!!
Go to see your local sailing “champions” they haven´t seen such nice and professional drawings before!
So, after the most obvious pressure is released, we can focus on the boat design…

In the next lesson we will design your boat! Promised!



For sure I will guide you through all the necessary steps to achieve the impossible….

to be continued.................................

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

sounds like your having fun...not!

[AmbitiousAmatur]

You must be good as you always seem quite condescending.

But in all seriousness, thank you. It is probably best to go through the pain of learning from a condescending and certain person than a lying unsure moron.

[AmbitiousAmatur]

I don't speak russian though unfortunately.

[Ad Hoc]

A condescending voice should not be confused with a disagreeing or dissenting voice.

Most people do not like to be questioned, nor do they like to be exposed as lacking in knowledge, or trying to appear superior. That's human nature. Just because someone has more knowledge than someone else, should they apologies for it. Granted the "delivery" can play a role, but that is emotive and subjective.

Those who have never been trained and brought up in a harsh work environment that must justify every calculation/decision and hence demand the same in return, to validate the whole procedure, should they apologies to those that have not and do not wish to be questioned? I have been accused of such many times, (in real life and on this website) doesn't bother me. If someone cannot answer my question, that is not my fault.

I suspect the same is true of Apex and the environment he works in too. Those of us that "do this" for a living are very different from those "that dabble" for fun.

It is better to be frank than to be shy/apologetic and make serious mistakes simply because, "..i didn't want to hurt his feelings!..". Subjective, emotive and feelings etc play no part in technical decision making in naval architecture/engineering, only objective.

Sorry, slight deviation...

Having said that I agree with your comments "...It is probably best to go through the pain of learning from a condescending and certain person than a lying unsure moron..". They will tell you the frank honest answers you seek.

[apex1]

sounds like your having fun...not!

sure mate,
thought I did it so obvious that everyone would take it with a grain of salt........well, we all fail sooner or later. I did sooner in this case.
Second part to be released within the next days.

Regards
Richard

[thudpucker]

Apex, that link for freeship go to: http://freeship-plus.hotmail.ru/

Took me to a Russian Porn site!
I was trying to follow your step by step....
Can you help?

[apex1]

Russian porn ??? interesting will check immediately...............


You are right! I will try to fix that problem asap! Thanks for the hint!
Tomorrow I guess we will have the next lesson (maybe on monday, depends how busy I´m tomorrow)

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

This is the actual version:

http://freeship-plus.land.ru/downloadsE.html

Porn costs extra!

[Manie B]

i love it - Apex1 well done :D

dont forget a chapter on CAD and how to import freeship into CAD

AND then - now that you have spawned all these designers show them how to sell all those fantastic designs and make MEGA BUCKS selling their outstanding designs all over the internet - easy peasy - from rags to riches - wow :D




:P

[Alik]

Availability of software is becoming serious problem because knowledge, experience and taste are not enclosed for free download together with this professional soft :)

[apex1]

Availability of software is becoming serious problem because knowledge, experience and taste are not enclosed for free download together with this professional soft :)

Do´nt disturb my pleasure please! I will of course come to a conclusion pretty similar to this!

[Alik]

Do´nt disturb my pleasure please! I will of course come to a conclusion pretty similar to this!

OK, at the end of story let's post some photos of boat drawn by 'software users'. I have some...

[apex1]

OK, at the end of story let's post some photos of boat drawn by 'software users'. I have some...

Will be fun I´m sure!!!;)

And sorry folks, I have to finish a project today, so next step on Monday!

[lewisboats]

OK, at the end of story let's post some photos of boat drawn by 'software users'. I have some...

I'm game...what make you of these?

Something I was playing with for the Texas 200 Messabout/race/get together/thingy

And the second one is of a small cruiser I have been contemplating

The third is a rowboat I kinda like

Got a nice little electric speedster for two here

and a slightly smaller weekend cruiser for two

Got a Stitch and glue mini tug

and a Strip version too

A 40 ft live aboard ala Buelher

A tunnel hull shallow draft river runner

A fat little catboat skiff

and one I built personally... a 10 ft S&G fishing skiff

Got an S&G Kayak

a Swedish Pram inspired multichine rowboat

A simple flat bottomed skiff which I built

Another which is available in two versions...rowing and Power from Duckworks which has been built by someone other than me.

A larger Catboat that can accomodate a small cuddy

a larger rowboat reminiscent of old time pulling boats

a nice 2 man rower for distance rowing

And Finally a S&G canoe that has the same lines as the old Canadian canoes

[thudpucker]

I'm destined to be a failure at boat design software.
I still couldnt make sense of all the choices at Delfship site. I gave up. I have a good design from Lewis boats anyway. I just wanted to do it myself.

Lewis didnt include the little Jon he did for me in his drawings.
He's sure enamord with those pointy boats aint he? ;)

[lewisboats]

Ok...here's yours too...and another pointy one being built in Australia and a picture of the DuckSkiff that was built, a Chugger that was also built (definitely a paint job by an out of the box thinker...nice guy tho) and a pic of my current build which is a Stevenson's Lake Scow...with mods of course ;)

PS: oops forgot to add the DinkyDink...got a bit larger one being built but don't have pics handy.

and another blunt nose...ScoutCanu which has seen a few reincarnations...as a canoe and as a sailboat with 2 different rigs Background on the lawnsailing one has a pic of the hull of the 10 ft fishing boat and another which hasn't been finished yet...going on 6 years now but someday.

Last is my own Chugger...as flat as you can get.

[lewisboats]

History...I started with software...specifically Carene50. I drew what I thought were boats. Some were...most weren't. Then I started buying books to research what I was being told I didn't know. I have applied the info that about $1500 in books (used mostly but some new) in designing over the past 8 years. I have a library of over 100 books covering design, materials, construction, motive design (sail and motor and oar) currently and am constantly looking for more. I have progressed to using FreeShip...in fact I have been on board from the very start and have helped Martjin with a few items as he progressed in the various versions. I currently use Carene 2008 (not available anymore) to define the basics of what I want and then import into Freeship to hone and refine the hull. Rigs, foils and such I usually keep in the old noggin until I am sure of the results. Someone CAN design a simple hull...I say again...SIMPLE hull but to go any further requires study of hydrodynamics, engineering, materials and construction techniques. If you want to do designing....be prepared for the long haul and a chunk of change and time devoted to learning what you don't think you need. I think software is very good to help you with what you want but there is a need for a solid background of principals to lend credence to what is possible with the software. It is just as easy to design a deathtrap as a lifeboat without a base of knowledge to draw on. PAR has more than once told me that "pretty pictures" aren't boats and I think it has finally sunk in. I work on more than just what I think looks good or like a boat now than in the past and I hope it shows in what comes out the other end. The designs and boats that are represented here are a very small fraction of what I have done...mostly junk to be honest...but at the time I did them they were the greatest! Looking at past efforts I can't believe I thought any of them were worth considering... let alone spending time thinking about actually building. Yes...I consider building each and every one of the boats I outline. Time, money and storage constrain me from letting the beast loose but I do have a few that are near and dear to the heart and that I would like to eventually build if granted time and money. A couple are represented here...perhaps you can pick them


Apex1...sorry to rain on your parade...I really don't mean to. I think most people who are ACTUALLY and REALLY interested in designing boats can get a jumpstart using software but there REALLY is a need to build a knowledge base of hydrostatics, fluid dynamics and materials properties to design boats that are functional and safe. Chugger is not really such a design and I have to constantly stress to anyone who builds one that it has quite a few limitations and must be kept within those limitations to be a useable craft. A re-design would entail much re-do at the expense of much of the simplicity tho. It is OK for what it can do but no more.

I am interested in your lessons...perhaps there is a shortcut that no one knows about that you will reveal...I look forward to reading more as the thread progresses.

Steve

[Alik]

2lewisboats:
You are designing SMALL boats for Your own use. Some of them are boxy, some of them are nice! Making small steps form smaller to bigger boats - good practice.

Trouble often happens when one starts to design boats for sale or for commercial use, without basic knwledge and experience. I have few samples of such 'boats' sitting in marina next to us... and also some abandoned on the beach or in jungle :)

[lewisboats]

Some are boxy, some are nice... sometimes boxy IS nice...just depends on what you are looking for.

Still the sentiment comes through...thanks for the thumbs up!

True...larger SHIPS should ALWAYS be designed by competent NAVAL ARCHITECTS and I can't stress that enough. A SHIP must be able to complete it's mission over and over again and provide a safe return on it's investment by a magnitude or more. Ships are a significant difference than boats...but I think Apex1 is leaning more towards the boat and Yacht thinker and designer than the Ship designer. A smaller boat has less "on the line" than the ship although those who venture out in them don't think so. A ship must protect itself, its cargo and its crew over and over again whereas a boat is only responsible for itself and crew on an infrequent and chosen basis. Not a lot of difference but when the cargo is valued in millions of (take your pick) and the crew numbers in the tens then it becomes a large factor in the design. Even larger yachts carry the onus of the protection of itself and it's crew that is biased towards being absolutely minimally risky. Any smaller boat has inherent risk...regardless of the competency of the designer. A small boat just CAN'T survive what a big boat or ship can unless specifically slotted to do ie. (rescue/survival). I think Apex1 is targeting towards those who wish to design their own boats or hulls that they might think others might be interested in. Much like myself in fact.

Steve

[lewisboats]

GOD I'M HAVING FUN WITH THIS THREAD....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(makes a 7 day work week of night shifts worth it.... being able to play at something that is FUN)


OK...so I need a life....I just can't find one that suits my schedule! :P :confused: :o :(

[Manie B]

Trouble often happens when one starts to design boats for sale or for commercial use, without basic knwledge and experience. I have few samples of such 'boats' sitting in marina next to us...

nevermind strange designs

you cannot and will not believe some of the utter crap that some of our local builders push out

worst of all is that they "copied" plans from well known designers
but not to worry they are all going out of business anyway

and the volumes are so low that the designers did not really loose money in royalties
it is just frikken annoying
and thanks to the internet and free software the buyers can soon see who is the chancers

every second pisscat at our yacht clubs is a design expert
they all know everything all the time

[apex1]

GOD I'M HAVING FUN WITH THIS THREAD....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(makes a 7 day work week of night shifts worth it.... being able to play at something that is FUN)
(

THATS QUITE OBVIOUS MATE!!!

But that was the reason starting this thread. And you do´nt rain on my parade! As long as we all have a little fun and some may learn a bit it´s worth it! I must not have the feeling of being superior, I´m the boss all day long, this is my recreational time.
So contribute, contradict, consume, pick your choice. But stay nice and novice friendly, please.

And sorry again audience, we must postpone the next lesson. Will be less busy on tuesday.

And just to be fair:
you can use Delftship instead of Freeship if you like, in principle it is the same programme but Delftship you may update later to a "pro" version.
nice sample hulls too.........

http://www.delftship.net/

Regards
Richard

[peter radclyffe]

Designing your own boat.........

A step by step guide for the interested amateur , beginner, novice, and absolute moron.

If you follow the step by step guide in a severe manner you should be able to design your own boat in a weekends time.

First step:
Have a computer at hand, most software related issues are better to handle if a computer is at hand.
Second step:
Pay the hefty penalty for having “Internet” acces. The Internet is a sort of worldwide acting bacteria eating preferrably time and or money. In our case both!
Third step:
Download (a “Internet” related term, you must not understand) the software “Carlson hull” from:

http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware

do not worry, it is neither FUN nor have you to share anything……and what could YOU share?

go to: http://freeship-plus.hotmail.ru/FreeShip3_04+update.rar

download (now you know already how it goes) the program.

Install both of the programs in a directory that is convenient to find. So, Carlson should not be placed betweeen all your porn related “C+xxx” files!

Click the “hull.exe” file, a miracle appears, someone has made a boat shape on your screen!
That’s Ok for now, you must not fear that!

Now the intellectual part of the game starts; you have to find the “help file” and to follow strictly the advice given!
Imagine the shape of your dream boat first (hard, I know, better to digest some given opinion), then scroll through the many possible designs included in that incredible software. Choose the one that fits your rough imagination best.
Play with it (you remember the instructions?), do not save it! You will overwrite the original file (design). And who are You to overwrite others serious efforts?
Now you have a shape that fits your demand! Congrat´s. Just leave the program, your recent drawing will be saved as “default.hul”

Change to “freeship” and “import” the file you created.
Tataaa, there it appears as if it was made by a “PRO”

Do´nt play too much with it, you may destroy the nice shape, but you “must” click the “project linesplan” button, then print it !!!
Go to see your local sailing “champions” they haven´t seen such nice and professional drawings before!
So, after the most obvious pressure is released, we can focus on the boat design…

In the next lesson we will design your boat! Promised!



For sure I will guide you through all the necessary steps to achieve the impossible….

to be continued.................................

Regards
Richard
hello apex, as a designer, what royalty could i reasonably expect for a design, thank you

[lewisboats]

I think I'll always be a novice...there is no money in being a professional! :(

Delftship is Freeship lite unless you lay out a chunk of cash for the extra modules. No offense to Martjin but I can't afford the extras that were removed from Freeship to make the free version of Delftship. For what I dabble with...Freeship is sufficient. If it can produce usable panels for the hulls I come up with I can live without the extras that might be available in Delftship with its multiple modules. Simple man...simple needs...simple mind...simple software!

[lewisboats]

hello apex, as a designer, what royalty could i reasonably expect for a design, thank you Are you in exile Monsieur? ;)

[peter radclyffe]

Are you in exile Monsieur? ;)
what a charming question, lewis, what is your experience of royalties

[lewisboats]

Napoleon thought rather highly of himself nes't pas? :D

[peter radclyffe]

Napoleon thought rather highly of himself nes't pas?
is that your opinion of me

[apex1]

hello apex, as a designer, what royalty could i reasonably expect for a design, thank you

None, if you really follow my advice! Not much more if you go professional. But up to 15% of the total construction cost if you become fancy.

[lewisboats]

is that your opinion of me

Woah!...not going there.... apparently there was a missssscommunication. I saw your location was ELBA and simply thought an exchange of banter pertaining to Napoleon's exile would be interesting. Not a reference to you or your lineage or anything else liable to excite anything other than mild interest in a thread communication. Please forget I mentioned it. The only reason I know anything about it is thru Xword puzzles and an education in Quebequois french as a kid.

Steve

[peter radclyffe]

Woah!...not going there.... apparently there was a missssscommunication. I saw your location was ELBA and simply thought an exchange of banter pertaining to Napoleon's exile would be interesting. Not a reference to you or your lineage or anything else liable to excite anything other than mild interest in a thread communication. Please forget I mentioned it.

Steve

please excuse me Steve, i misunderstood you:)

[peter radclyffe]

None, if you really follow my advice! Not much more if you go professional. But up to 15% of the total construction cost if you become fancy.
thank you , i learn a lot from your posts

[lewisboats]

please excuse me Steve, i misunderstood you

Whew...for a moment there I thought I had stepped on IT...and that is a painful experience....I know (i've done it more than once!) :(

So,,,, how different is Elba from Sicily? I was stationed at Comiso for year and still remember it fondly

[peter radclyffe]

Whew...for a moment there I thought I had stepped on IT...and that is a painful experience....I know! :(

So,,,, how different is Elba from Sicily? I was stationed at Comiso for year and still remember it fondly
i havent been to sicily, elba is laid back, not much work, so instead of all the bla bla, ive tried to create some work by designing & building a 20ft day boat, im interested in teaching apprentices because the old hull forms are dying out, & theres not a lot for young folks to do in winter,

[lewisboats]

Sounds like a good place to keep traditions going. What kind of hulls are there floating around? I have this great picture that I call "paradise" ...it is of a smaller boat that I suspect is floating in some cove in the Med or Aegean or somewhere in that neighborhood. it has a couple-three guys kickin back and 'laxin' in this beautiful emerald green shallows under a cliff...hell...why should I describe it when I can post it? THIS is wanna be ME!

[peter radclyffe]

Sounds like a good place to keep traditions going. What kind of hulls are there floating around? I have this great picture that I call "paradise" ...it is of a smaller boat that I suspect is floating in some cove in the Med or Aegean or somewhere in that neighborhood. it has a couple-three guys kickin back and 'laxin' in this beautiful emerald green shallows under a cliff...hell...why should I describe it when I can post it? THIS is wanna be ME!

thats about it, double-ended gozzo's, 10-40 ft, a lot of people are too zapped by the heat to do much,

[lewisboats]

OH....the envy...! This is a desktop on one of my computers. Every time I see it I wish I was there! Do you have any pictures of the local craft and yours please?

[apex1]

Whew...for a moment there I thought I had stepped on IT...and that is a painful experience....I know (i've done it more than once!) :(

So,,,, how different is Elba from Sicily? I was stationed at Comiso for year and still remember it fondly

Hey guys
there are several drivel threads around here! This was not meant to be the # 199

PM is another function you could use to share your valuable adventures!

Tonight we have the next lesson.

[lewisboats]

Sorry...just chit-chatting while we wait.

[apex1]

Ok dear fellow members, lets try our next round.
First we choose a design in Carlson.hul as mentioned above. I suppose you did already more than that, but thats what we are here for. To make the game easy I suggest to open the "Bazcat1" file, so we have all the same model to work on.
Open "Freeship" / import (not open), the file.
you now see this screen:

http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Catfirst.png


to work with the different views you can maximise the one to work on, than minimize to have all four on screen again. In further steps I will refer to the different views as: UL for upper left, UR for ? yes,- and LL / LR respectively.

We now have a multi chine cat boat of about 6,7m length. Both is not what we want, we want a 16m round bilge boat.
First we scale it up: click Transform / scale, choose 2,5 / 2,1 / 2,1 to scale the hull inhomogenous.
Go to Project / settings and change the settings to metric Open the next tab Main Dimensions and change the values to: 16.5 / 4.9 / 0.65 to have simpler figures.

this is what we see know:

http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Cat2.png

Now look at the LR window, you see the some hydrostatic info, one is the displacement it says something around 13.5 tonnes and you see the draft is not 65cm but 69 cm !?
Yes this is a clever programme it knows you bring more sixpacks than calculated and your spouse has overweight!
Of course you have calculated and estimated the weight of all your hull, deck, superstructure, equipment and the like, by so far, so you know that you have a displacement of about 14.5 tonnes at the end!? Remember: one table knife is about 170 gram (if yours is lighter it is not Silver), a sixpack about 4 kg. The draft at around 68 cm (bare hull) will give us the right displ. (the prog.s algorithm makes it 72 in this case)
You will have to change these settings later many times while the hull shape changes. So, do´nt bother now.
Remember: designing is mainly erasing!
We now get rid of the chines. Open LR view and switch the control net on (always work in the single half of hull mode only).
The uppermost edge is our deck and we do´nt touch it now, the next one shows a Hard chine, we select the complete line from Stern to Bow by clicking the first (we always refer to the stern as point Zero) edge line while the ctrl. button is pushed. The line appears yellow. Now press the "switch select edges between normal and crease mode" button. Press "esc" button to deselect edges, colour changes. Now change all 5 edges to normal.
and:
http://www.imgbox.de/users/apex1/Cat3.png




well, what you see on your screen is different? Yes I made the next step already, I gave the junk some frames. Open the window for editing frames, buttocks, waterlines by clicking the "cheese knife and the blue toast" button, click the waste paper basket to delete existing frames, click the next button to the left to add multiple frames, a window opens, choose the spacing (here 1m). You can do the same for buttocks diagonals etc. If you rescale your model (and you will), you have to do this step again, so do´nt bother now, do the correct spacing after you have finished the model.

Lets change the shape of this ugly sampan now. As you can see in the UL the model has a keel. We change the size later. Right click in the UL and change mode to gaussian you have it in 3d view now. You can move and rotate the hull by pressing the scroll button on your mouse and moving it. Switch to both sides of model to have a better impression, deselect all frames, waterlines etc. You see there are some "stress edges" you have to fair.
Switch to LR and turn control net on. Click one of the edge points at the transom, a window appears showing the position of this point. Click into the y axis window and change the value, press return, the point has moved. Edit undo! This is one way to move a point, the other way is more convenient. Select a point, then click the up, down, left, right arrow on your keyboard. The point is moved by one increment! Edit undo! in the lower bar of the prog. is the actual increment distance shown, click on it to change the value to the most convenient for the task choosen.
Now refine all the control points / lines to the shape you like. Do´nt forget to make a deeper keel and to narrow it at the bow.
Make a noise next year when finished!!!

To be continued soon.

[apex1]

Sorry...just chit-chatting while we wait.

I would like if we could make this thread a real assistance for a complete novice. We have some young members (from 13 up) here that really could enjoy having a step by step advice. And I would enjoy having you as one of the contributors to correct and complement my efforts.

If we keep the thread straight and clean I am sure we soon have a pretty good beginners tutorial. And when we come to the more advanced part of the game I hope some experts will chime in and share their knowledge.


Regards
Richard

[lewisboats]

Just one note for now...for us neanderthals who still like to use the imperial or standard system...to change your units to feet. lbs and Tons go to project, Project settings and change from metric to standard. If you see a hull that you like but it is 16m long, 4m wide and 1.1m deep and you would like to import it but have it 16 ft long, 4 ft wide and 1.1 ft deep...import it, change to feet then immediately go to Transform, Scale, keep all layers selected and then put .3048 for the values in each of the dimensions and click ok. It will ask if you want to adjust markers...say yes. The hull will not look like it changed but it will now measure 16x4x1.1 ft. You may have to adjust your waterline because that was not scaled the same way.

Steve

Apex1: so far so good...
Now refine all the control points / lines to the shape you like. Do´nt forget to make a deeper keel and to narrow it at the bow.

But shouldn't there some explanation as to why things should be shaped in certain ways? Like why the keel must be deepened, what it is used for, how it should be shaped for hydrostatic reasons, where the CLR should be, etc?

[apex1]

But shouldn't there some explanation as to why things should be shaped in certain ways? Like why the keel must be deepened, what it is used for, how it should be shaped for hydrostatic reasons, where the CLR should be, etc?

Yes, sure mate, but that needs a deeper insight in the subject matter which I assume is not there on average. (at least not whithin my target group of novices) This is just a sample hull, nothing to be built ever.
And adding too much of technical background (if any) to the "first step" tutorial is by far more effort than I can make!
I have to make my shabby living besides this job, and begging in the roads is not easy nowadays.

But as mentioned above, as soon as we have managed to produce some sort of "buildable" shape, I would like to leave the further step to next step, tutorial to the better skilled part of our audience.

And thanks for the contribution! Exactly that way I had in mind when starting this thread, to supplement with others advice!

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

i love it - Apex1 well done :D

dont forget a chapter on CAD and how to import freeship into CAD

:P

Not to stress your patience Manie.

The last step before the third:
If you are finished with your incredible junk.

You have several choices to destroy your effort in using a CAD programme for further steps.
First save your drawing as usual, then "export" it either as: 3d mesh, 3d polylines, or 2d polylines, all in DXF format understood by most CAD prog.s

But now there is a trick! Freeship exports only what you can see on the screen! So, the more details are seen there i.e. waterlines, buttocks the more information is send to your dxf file. And where a 2d poly file is just a handfull of bytes, a 3d mesh with highest resolution gaussian rendering can easily be 5 mega. Bear that in mind when you need just a brief overview how it may look in your CAD.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Well, there we have it!
Making some effort to express myself and providing some basic tutorial for the first steps in Freeship I occasionally found it already done in a very nice and professional manner!
Although I do´nt like the idea that this enables you to copy (steal) others designs, it is the best first step tutorial I have seen by so far.
To make the story short, I´ll just post the .pdf files I´ve found on the Delftship side.
See attachments.

Further comments and contributions welcome!

Regards
Richard

[MikeJohns]

Great effort Richard, well done

[M-Sasha]

Great effort Richard, well done

I concur Mike but it is a bit sad that no one else did add his knowledge here.
I have learned a lot, thank you Richard!

Sasha

[Ad Hoc]

Sterling efforts Richard.

It is all beyond me...but i can see plenty of effort and great advice for others using the same software.

[merry maid]

Hi all, hi apex. This is my first message on this board. I am hoping to learn a lot from this new experience.

The boat i want to build is the merry maid (hence, my nickname).

The boat plans i have gotten to can be found here, freely.

http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=MechanixIllustrated/MerryMaid

Thanks for the info up till now, all.

cheers,
merrymaid

[dskira]

Designing your own boat.........

A step by step guide for the interested amateur , beginner, novice, and absolute moron.

If you follow the step by step guide in a severe manner you should be able to design your own boat in a weekends time.

First step:
Have a computer at hand, most software related issues are better to handle if a computer is at hand.
Second step:
Pay the hefty penalty for having “Internet” acces. The Internet is a sort of worldwide acting bacteria eating preferrably time and or money. In our case both!
Third step:
Download (a “Internet” related term, you must not understand) the software “Carlson hull” from:

http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Fun_Shareware

do not worry, it is neither FUN nor have you to share anything……and what could YOU share?

go to: http://freeship-plus.hotmail.ru/FreeShip3_04+update.rar

download (now you know already how it goes) the program.

Install both of the programs in a directory that is convenient to find. So, Carlson should not be placed betweeen all your porn related “C+xxx” files!

Click the “hull.exe” file, a miracle appears, someone has made a boat shape on your screen!
That’s Ok for now, you must not fear that!

Now the intellectual part of the game starts; you have to find the “help file” and to follow strictly the advice given!
Imagine the shape of your dream boat first (hard, I know, better to digest some given opinion), then scroll through the many possible designs included in that incredible software. Choose the one that fits your rough imagination best.
Play with it (you remember the instructions?), do not save it! You will overwrite the original file (design). And who are You to overwrite others serious efforts?
Now you have a shape that fits your demand! Congrat´s. Just leave the program, your recent drawing will be saved as “default.hul”

Change to “freeship” and “import” the file you created.
Tataaa, there it appears as if it was made by a “PRO”

Do´nt play too much with it, you may destroy the nice shape, but you “must” click the “project linesplan” button, then print it !!!
Go to see your local sailing “champions” they haven´t seen such nice and professional drawings before!
So, after the most obvious pressure is released, we can focus on the boat design…

In the next lesson we will design your boat! Promised!



For sure I will guide you through all the necessary steps to achieve the impossible….

to be continued.................................

Regards
Richard


This is so good, well said Richard and so funny.:)
Cheers
Daniel

[apex1]

Thank you all for your comments, contribution, complications, contradiction!

Now after almost 4500 hits, I think it´s time to tell you the naked truth.:idea:

First,
you cannot design your own boat! That was a barefaced lie!

To design a boat you would have to know about hydrostatics, hydrodynamics and a lot of other stuff, both you and me are too dumb to spell.
The fact that you clicked this thread is more than sufficient proof, you have no clue.:rolleyes:

This software (as every other such program) is a good tool in the hands of a qualified Naval Architect or ship / boat Designer. It does not replace his knowledge and skills!
Though we have been able to make nice pictures, we could produce a hell of a lot of technical data, that all means nothing. It is what it is: GIGO
Garbage In Garbage Out

In some cases it CAN be helpful to understand some technical issues easier, because we can see the influence of any change in no time.
It CAN help drawing a preliminary hull shape, to show our NA what we have in mind.
Maybe even a simple little boat for the next pond can be drawn, by using a proven existing design as basis.
But that was it for the amateur.................sorry.:(

Second,
when I started this thread, I had less than 3 hours of own, practical experience with this software.
In fact I learned more from my own tutorial, than I was able to manage before. And the obligation to go further, pushed me a lot, thanks!:D

It was nice to notice that some members really learned something. So, the effort was worth it.
It was a bit a pity that other members, 20 times more experienced than I was, did not chime in, to add their skills.
Ashes on your skalp! Lewis, daiquiri, to name just two.:D Though Lewis started to add....

Anyway, the thread is´nt closed, so it may happen that the better qualified add what should be found here, to make the bold headline sensible.

Thanks, you´ve been a nice audience, and forgive the little swindle.:cool:

Regards
Richard

[Ad Hoc]

Apex1(Richard)

As always, an engaging read.
Knowing ones own limitations and exposing them to the world in searching for answers, is the sign of a true professional, as well as humility. You wont get any button pusher on here being as open and honest as you have been....because they fear ridicule and being questioned on things they clearly know nothing about, save for cut and pasting words from websites...when all they covet is praise!!

Well done, keep it up.... :)

PS..getting more spineless hitting again, another gem "..Same old ridicule.."
Just same old anonymous pathetic weak nonsense from immature children. It is simply QED my statement above that irked them, they don't like being questioned owing to their ignorance and arrogance. Simply spineless and pathetic..!!!!

[lewisboats]

Merde

[Ad Hoc]

lewisboats

No, don't skip it, i don't think you got stuffed, just misunderstood some comments (thats my 2c worth).
Earlier you said:
If you want to do designing....be prepared for the long haul and a chunk of change and time devoted to learning what you don't think you need. I think software is very good to help you with what you want but there is a need for a solid background of principals to lend credence to what is possible with the software. It is just as easy to design a deathtrap as a lifeboat without a base of knowledge to draw on. PAR has more than once told me that "pretty pictures" aren't boats and I think it has finally sunk in..."

That's pretty much the same conclusion as Richard's above.

What you ahve done yourself, and Richard too is to be commended. Not because of what you have achieved, but, because you realise that there is so much more to it, then pushing buttons, and not afraid to say so! However, Richard has pushed some very good buttons on getting thus far...very impressive for all to see.

[thudpucker]

There are a lot of useful and intelligent guys on this forum.
I just dont like so much of the Caustic.
It wrecks the program for me.

[Fanie]

you cannot design your own boat! That was a barefaced lie!
Dammit Richard, I was going to give you points for this thread. Now it looks like I'll have to take some AWAY from you :D

To design a boat you would have to know about hydrostatics, hydrodynamics and a lot of other stuff, both you and me are too dumb to spell.
The fact that you clicked this thread is more than sufficient proof, you have no clue.
I thought this is what you were going to do - teach us about it ! This is the 'Design' forums for boats, you know.

Suspected truth is it got a bit overwhelming didn't it ;)

Well, regarding your last post you are half right. I suspect half the morons would jump in, draw a 'thing' and never research any of it to make a decent boat. The other half however is where you could make a difference - they will actually make something decent from it.

So it looks like you only need to help every second guy that reads this thread :D, seems easy enough ;)

*Sigh*
You are however right. Most think a boat is a simple thing (which it is) that is going to be cheap, easy to build and sport better performance than anyone before... like you indicated in an earlier post, a weekend to figger the software, a couple of days to do the design and maybe a week say two to build the darn thing and WHALA !!!! the multi million sleek yacht sits in the back yard :D

and *PHEW*... I was actually thinking you were serious in the first few threads :rolleyes:

[M-Sasha]

You are a real Bastard Richard, but the most honest and the most professional one I know.:p
When I think, I was sometimes ahead of my tutor maybe? A good joke, a real good one. Thank you.

Lewisboat, there was no attack against you, so I understand it. See the sarcasm between the lines! He likes your part in the thread.:D

Fanie, I would give him the points, but i did allready on this thresd, and if just for the extraordinary backbone.:idea:

Greetings from Sevastopol
Sasha

[dskira]

Merde

Merde? Why?

Hi Sasha, good day, hows life in Sabastopol

I have to be a little pretentius so I will greet you in the idiom of our friend Lewisboats

Mes amis je vous souhaite une brillante journee pleine de bonheur et d'amour :D

Snooty :P

Cheers (In Russian I am lost)
Daniel

[M-Sasha]

Для вас слишком

For you too, mon ami!

[lewisboats]

Merde? Why?

Oh...just in general...I wrote a treatise...erased it and didn't have time to write another and said Merde...typed it to ;). I had to go to the other job. Good to see someone caught me on it. Didn't mean "attack" just put off a bit when I suggested that there was more to DESIGNING boats than Modeling a boat shape. I think the Subject of the thread should have been "Step by Step to MODEL your boat! (in freeship)." Then the Design aspect could have been separated from the drawing or utilization of the program to draw. Hell...I could use Free!Ship to draw a chair or a house or any other surface if I felt like it. A comprehensive Tutorial on Freeship would be a boon to all I think but to imply that by learning to use the program you are designing a seaworthy craft...well that kinda threw me off my granola a bit. Should we start again with a more apt title?

[apex1]

Thank You Lewis for clearing that!
I think there have been so many comments pointing towards the restrictions any software has, that we could leave it as it is. Just adding further steps, tweaks, or just own models. Each as one likes.
What do you think?

Sibiriak do´nt call me bastard, I know both my parents!.......personally...

All others: thanks for being pardoning!**

Regards
Richard

**except this one of course: Ridiculous old-fashioned nonsense which was found in the negative "feedback" corner. Yeah, plumb jokes travel easy, for irony one needs a functional brain...

[bdVlajko]

you cannot design your own boat! That was a barefaced lie!
You should have said:
you cannot design your own boat based on my silly tutorial! That was a barefaced lie!

[apex1]

You should have said:

Welcome here Professor Vlajko!
You´re in good society, it becomes more and more en vogue amongst the newbies, to start the first post with a offense.

But do´nt mind, even the shabbiest comment keeps the thread alive.

Thank you
Richard

[bdVlajko]

Well this may be my first post but I've been around this forum for a while ...

I am one of those amateur newbies who'd like to design their own boat but I was not hooked upon your "tutorial". It is a pity that there is no such (serious) topic and it is a shame that the only one was actually a joke. This forum is not visited only by professionals - on the contrary, I am sure that most of the visitors are people looking for some knowledge.

Like many others, I am convinced that amateur can design and build his own boat. Morons will probably build something that looks more like a floating can then a boat, but if one is really serious about it, he can figure out the basics of boat design and design a boat that will perform just fine.

One does not need to be Einstein to learn to build 5-6 meter boat and it would be a great help and time saver if you guys help us out by putting up such tutorial. Not just to laugh at us.

[Rick Willoughby]

Well this may be my first post but I've been around this forum for a while ...

I am one of those amateur newbies who'd like to design their own boat but I was not hooked upon your "tutorial". It is a pity that there is no such (serious) topic and it is a shame that the only one was actually a joke. This forum is not visited only by professionals - on the contrary, I am sure that most of the visitors are people looking for some knowledge.

Like many others, I am convinced that amateur can design and build his own boat. Morons will probably build something that looks more like a floating can then a boat, but if one is really serious about it, he can figure out the basics of boat design and design a boat that will perform just fine.

One does not need to be Einstein to learn to build 5-6 meter boat and it would be a great help and time saver if you guys help us out by putting up such tutorial. Not just to laugh at us.

Start your own thread setting out what you would like to achieve with a boat and I am certain that some helpful folk will make the effort to fill in the information you would like to have to make your journey.

Rick W

[apex1]

Well this may be my first post but I've been around this forum for a while ...

I am one of those amateur newbies who'd like to design their own boat but I was not hooked upon your "tutorial". It is a pity that there is no such (serious) topic and it is a shame that the only one was actually a joke. This forum is not visited only by professionals - on the contrary, I am sure that most of the visitors are people looking for some knowledge.

Like many others, I am convinced that amateur can design and build his own boat. Morons will probably build something that looks more like a floating can then a boat, but if one is really serious about it, he can figure out the basics of boat design and design a boat that will perform just fine.



This IS a serious tutorial! And by no means a joke, or kidding.:!:

Though there is a sometimes ironic attitude, several members have used it to make their first steps with this software! Some of them are professional boatbuilders (at least three as I know), and one of them a boat designing engineer. Not to count the many amateurs. Try it you´ll see it works!

So, there is nobody here laughing at other members.
When you re-read the thread you may notice that.

To your opinion of a amateurs ability to "design" a boat, be assured you can not! And that is not my personal opinion, you will find similar comments all over this thread, and all over the Forum, made by experts.
One may be able to draw a nice looking boat, using this, or other software, but without a deep understanding what is behind the lines and figures, the result is GIGO, worthless. PERIOD:!:

And to your statement: I am sure that most of the visitors are people looking for some knowledge.
YOU are obviously not amongst them? Or how do you expect to receive proper assistance, when you start with offending those experts you like to ask?

One does not need to be Einstein to learn to build 5-6 meter boat and it would be a great help and time saver if you guys help us out by putting up such tutorial.
There are so many universities worldwide doing that to the highest levels, enroll at one, sure you must not be Einstein. But do you expect one of us is giving a course in Naval Architecture here?

If you feel it a pity that here is no such tutorial (except this one of course), you may present us one, as Rick proposed!
Be prepared, to spend some time to get it right! And be prepared that some nasty bastards will not ask how many evenings you worked for free, to provide something helpful, when they pee on it.

Now, tune your behaviour, bury the hatchet, and ask your questions, some of us are willing to advise without sarcasm. (I can hardly believe I wrote that):D

Richard

[Fanie]

Ta raaaant.... Ta raaaant.... Ta rant ta rant ta rant.... Rick to the reeeescue :D

Good idea Rick. I like people who have the guts to buld their own, providing they do the research and if it's not like the bath tubs Manie built to now :D

I had a bit of thought about Richard the Ape x's misleading thread here. He is right, it is going to be a couple of year's thread to get the novice up to speed - if they study after hours as well and do research, and not to mention anything practical. Not everyone knows how a screw driver works, hard to believe but true so not every one should build a boat.

Nice to know at least he's got a bit of humour, distorted as it may :rolleyes:
Now we know we should not ever believe ANYTHING he posts untill confirmed by someone else :D

He he he... :D

[Fanie]

To your opinion of a amateurs ability to "design" a boat, be assured you can not!

Wanna bet ? Oh but you're joking again OF COURSE :D

YOU are obviously not amongst them

Strong German accent coming through there...
Never ever underestimate somone else.

[apex1]

Nice to know at least he's got a bit of humour, distorted as it may :rolleyes:
Now we know we should not ever believe ANYTHING he posts untill confirmed by someone else :D

No distortion, no Universe Fanie....

Within the distorted quadratic anti-prisms of cesium atoms of the rod-shaped building blocks, there are two ozonide ions that come as close as 2.753(8) Å to each other via their central oxygen atoms. The partially hydroxylated closo-2 (n = 1 - 4) anions are distorted with respect to their parent closo-[B12H12]2 anion and exhibit BB and BO bond lengths that are markedly deviated.

All clear now? And thanks for the ........ louse:D


Wanna bet ? Oh but you're joking again OF COURSE :D

Ok let´s say [B]I cannot!:rolleyes:
After some 30 years of manufacturing a few thousand yachts, after 40 years of owning and commanding commercial and recreational vessels, having a sufficient understanding what keeps a log afloat, I am not bold enough to design my own yacht! I hire a NA to get the basics done.

Of course different people have different skills.;)

[bdVlajko]

This IS a serious tutorial! And by no means a joke, or kidding.:!: When you re-read the thread you may notice that.

Just did and I could not find that part.

One may be able to draw a nice looking boat, using this, or other software, but without a deep understanding what is behind the lines and figures, the result is GIGO, worthless. PERIOD:!:

If that nice looking boat also floats and performs nicely on water, then what's the need for deep understanding what is behind the lines and figures ?

And to your statement:
YOU are obviously not amongst them? Or how do you expect to receive proper assistance, when you start with offending those experts you like to ask?

I am obviously among them. Six months ago I knew nothing about boat building and while looking for good sources of information on internet I stumbled on this forum. It took a while to get some basic (not deep) understanding of how things work and learn to use software but I finally managed to lower the resistance (according to michlet) on our amateur design (12mx3m, 8t displacement) to some 3KW on cruising speed (cca 7 knots). Even with huge losses due to propeller inefficiency this should not go over 5KW and >10KW electric motor will have no problems in pushing such boat and that was my goal.

Obviously, I did not (yet) ask for help on this forum because most of my questions were already answered one way or another and could easily be found using forum search. Rick, Leo, Ad Hock and others provided a wealth of information in their posts and I thank them for that.

But do you expect one of us is giving a course in Naval Architecture here?

Not a bad idea at all.

If you feel it a pity that here is no such tutorial (except this one of course), you may present us one, as Rick proposed!

First of all Rick did not propose that - he proposed me to start a thread, describe what kind of boat would I like to make and ask for help. As you put it ... "When you re-read the thread you may notice that". However, I would not mind contributing in writing such tutorial but in that case it should be called "Naval Architecture for absolute beginners" since that is what I am and will always be. Being handy with computer and spending couple hours a day for a few months can't make anyone NA.

Now, tune your behaviour, bury the hatchet, and ask your questions, some of us are willing to advise without sarcasm. (I can hardly believe I wrote that)

Hatchets buried and hopefully I won't need to ask any questions. Asking someone else to do my homework is nice but the only way I can learn something is to do it by myself.

Regards
Vladimir

[apex1]

Well, leave it as it is..........

Just did and I could not find that part.

Many, many others did!
So, my assumption about your motivation to contribute here remains negative! Very negative

Interesting to notice, that this thread has not seen negative comments from any of the older members, quite the extreme opposite. But our newest newbie had something to grumble right in his first post.

Though he fortunately soon provides proof that his opinion is´nt worth much:

Six months ago I knew nothing about boat building and while looking for good sources of information on internet I stumbled on this forum. It took a while to get some basic (not deep) understanding of how things work and learn to use software but I finally managed to lower the resistance (according to michlet) on our amateur design (12mx3m, 8t displacement) to some 3KW on cruising speed (cca 7 knots). Even with huge losses due to propeller inefficiency this should not go over 5KW and >10KW electric motor will have no problems in pushing such boat and that was my goal.

..Is so extremely far from being true, it clearly shows how right my statement was.
You can NOT design a boat!

...just leave it..not worth.

[bdVlajko]

And why do you think it is "so extremely far from being true" ?

[lewisboats]

Oregon Dory???? T'wernt mine!

[lewisboats]

Nah...That's the Duckskiff that is up on Duckworks...14 ft long with a lot of flare so you can get right to the edge and lift the dog back in the boat without being dumped in the drink

[apex1]

And why do you think it is "so extremely far from being true" ?


No boy, in my village we ask first, then contradict. Not vice versa.
Go study.........

[apex1]

the draft on the Oregon dory is wrong I think , but maybe it has a 1000 lb of fish in it

What was that? A bit hijacking before we have tea??

[bdVlajko]

... and in my village we provide arguments for such claims. Of course, it is always easier to hide behind age, education, number of posts, fancy signature or whatever.

[apex1]

... and in my village we provide arguments for such claims. Of course, it is always easier to hide behind age, education, number of posts, fancy signature or whatever.

Ok Srbsk,

lets make it another pissing contest.

I must not hide behind anything, I just refuse to waste my time with idiots trying to tell the pro´s how the water freezes.
If you would have asked about a opinion or a valuation of your figures, be sure you would have got a nice and serious answer. (not here btw. this was a tutorial for Freeship beginners, before your mad post popped up).
But dumb statements, telling others what you can do, do´nt lead to fruitful discussions.

[apex1]

Another ,I can do it you cant thread . I am not sure these help anyone or clarify things to much ..

you´re on the best way to make it become such place.....
may I know your intention?

[Martijn_vE]

Freeships is a tool , and just like any other tool it wont do everything

Frank is right. Just like any other design software, it's just that: software. Kinda like the carpenters hammer.

The risk of software like this is that it seems so easy to design a boat.
Sure, modeling something resembling a 40ft sailing yacht on your screen is easy enough. But modeling something in 3D is not yet designing.
And as long as your goal is to create an 8ft rowing boat for the kids there's not much risk (as long as you remembered to teach them how to swim).
But designing something larger (and safer!) is way more complex, not something you'll learn from reading a thread.
If you are really eager to learn how to design a boat then either buy yourself a stack of books (and read them ;)) or take a course in designing and building.

Better still, why do not both.

[bdVlajko]

Ok Srbsk,

lets make it another pissing contest.

I must not hide behind anything, I just refuse to waste my time with idiots trying to tell the pro´s how the water freezes.
If you would have asked about a opinion or a valuation of your figures, be sure you would have got a nice and serious answer. (not here btw. this was a tutorial for Freeship beginners, before your mad post popped up).
But dumb statements, telling others what you can do, do´nt lead to fruitful discussions.

Just to make it clear ...

1. I did not start a pissing content - you did.
2. I never said you are an idiot - you did.
3. I did not ask for an opinion. I asked what gives you the right to say it's far from truth and if you can't provide any argument that's fine with me.
4. I do not tell others what to do but you did that on many occasions in this thread.

And what kind of tutorial for Freeship beginners is this anyway, when you keep telling beginners that they are idiots who can't design their own boat ?

Vladimir

[apex1]

Frank is right. Just like any other design software, it's just that: software. Kinda like the carpenters hammer.

The risk of software like this is that it seems so easy to design a boat.
Sure, modeling something resembling a 40ft sailing yacht on your screen is easy enough. But modeling something in 3D is not yet designing.
And as long as your goal is to create an 8ft rowing boat for the kids there's not much risk (as long as you remembered to teach them how to swim).
But designing something larger (and safer!) is way more complex, not something you'll learn from reading a thread.
If you are really eager to learn how to design a boat then either buy yourself a stack of books (and read them ;)) or take a course in designing and building.

Better still, why do not both.

Hello Martijn, and welcome here.

It would have been nice to see you here before the drivel started.

And sorry, NO Frank is not right! He is just repeating what we, the starter and contributors to the thread have said right from the beginning!

Btw. is your site working again?

Regards
Richard

[Fanie]

Dear fellow forum users :D

None of these last posts are usefull in any way. Argumenting does not provide anything other than time awaisting.

Since this is Richard's thread, I think you, Richard, should make your expectancy for this thread clear (in less than 50 words, the weekend is almost over :D) and the rest of us stick to it.

If any you have other ideas then feel free to start your own thread...

Kids... :D

[Martijn_vE]

And sorry, NO Frank is not right! He is just repeating what we, the starter and contributors to the thread have said right from the beginning
Actually it doesn't really matter who came up with the argument originally, you, Frank or someone else.
The argument stays valid.

But I must add to my previous post that I didn't mean that an amateur cannot learn how to design a boat.
It just takes practice, knowledge and common sense.
The first two will come with time. And common sense, well let's just say that I'm still waiting for that.:(

It would have been nice to see you here before the drivel started.

And as far as the driveling is concerned, it seems to happen more and more on this forum lately.
Somewhere along the thread someone starts quibbling over details (or worse, the "definition of design") and the thread becomes spoiled.

So my personal opinion is we should give it a rest and move on.

[Fanie]

He he Frank,

I am also married to a miserable women who does a wonderful job of making me feel...

Her name is not Richard by any chance :D My old witch does exactly the same. I think it's their way of letting them feel important for us.

[apex1]

So could we please stop this drivel now!

As Fanie pointed out so appropriate, this is MY thread.

Contribute to topic or stay away, nobody has a obligation to enjoy this place.:!:

Frankly , this is Richards long and winding way to tell all us hobbyist , want to be boat designers that we are small minded twits . And I am now offended, as
all of us should be . .


Frank your dumb attempt to hijack this place was noticed. As well as this hypocritical assumption about my intention. Feel offended, who cares. Do´nt forget to delete your nonsense before you leave!

[apex1]

Quite impressive to see how fast things change.

Just two, three pages back there was solely positive echo around (which I did not request). And that came from well respected and professional members only.
Then a completely unknown "value" pops up here, and the thread becomes hijacked by gruntling newbies. One of them unwilling to read the thread, the other just searching for a Friday evening fight. Not a single one constructive critic, just drivel.
What sad individuals.



I am also married to a miserable women who does a wonderful job of making me feel inadequate , so I dont need to come her for that.
Well, you may call her miserable (what a behaviour), but I´m sure she knows you well!

You have forgotten to delete your nonsense posts (thats ALL).

[lewisboats]

Apex1...seeing as you won't tell me which response you are talking about in the PMs would you please quote it here so I know what you are talking about. You are lashing out at me and I don't know what for. I have made 2 replies to posts since explaining my "merde" statement...both from Frank Smith and both pertaining to a design I posted at the beginning of THIS THREAD. If you can't remember what was posted at the beginning of your own thread then you need to go back and re-read it...and get off your high horse (and MY back)!

[bdVlajko]

Quite impressive to see how fast things change.
Just two, three pages back there was solely positive echo around (which I did not request). And that came from well respected and professional members only.

This "positive echo around" disappeared after you said:

Thank you all for your comments, contribution, complications, contradiction!
Now after almost 4500 hits, I think it´s time to tell you the naked truth.:idea:
you cannot design your own boat! That was a barefaced lie!

Then it became obvious that you are not trying to write tutorial but rather play joke on people looking for one. All you did after that post is to tell people they are incapable of designing their own boat.

This is no "Step by step to design your own boat!" - this is a barefaced lie!

[Fanie]

Then it became obvious that you are not trying to write tutorial but rather play joke on people looking for one. All you did after that post is to tell people they are incapable of designing their own boat.

Richard has the knowledge to offer the correct information - instead of attacking him why not ask him to give some information. He doesn't have to, but if you are nice instead of agressive and demanding it may have the right reaction.

If you disagree, then just think how it is working for you so far...

[M-Sasha]

Puhh
that turned not so good here.
It seems bdvlajko goes out for having hassle, and others feel nice to jump on that train.

I did learn how to manage Freeship+ from this tread only!!! Thank youagain Richard!!!

Stupid people like bdvlajko will not learn that, shure. He cannot read that is the problem.
7 postings 7 times agression, nothing we can learn from. No wait, we can learn, this man is not worth being noticed. Go play in another place vlajko.

Sasha

Oh just see my CP paneel
Thank you Fanie and Mike Johns!


One last note (I know Richard will kick my a..s but I say that now)

This man Richard (apex) has picked me up from the roads in Odessa when I was a street dog. He has financed my school, my Universitie and my first jobs and my boatyard.
This man is not joking! He acts when you drivel.
Sasha

[Ad Hoc]

You're all missing the point of the thread....and becoming unnecessary truculent, for what reason, i cannot fathom.

Maybe too much alcohol..or maybe the time of year, it is hallowev'en after all, since I've had 3 neg hits in one day for pointing out what a design methodology is, but the button pushers but the don't like being told doing something "bit by bit" to eventually arrive at an answer, is actually reactive (not proactive), hence iterative and ergo, not design per se. (not to a naval architect it ain't...maybe to someone who lives inside their program!).

If you already know how to press buttons and get pretty pictures, fine, why read the thread....if you don't and want to see how someone in the "same boat" (pun intended) does it, make endless silly (and obvious to some) mistakes, but learns how to over come them...then read on - or even better why not explain why doing XX is better than doing YY, if you already know how. Anything else is pointless and doesn't add to the purpose of this thread.

Everyone has their own way of learning and doing things...some are more open and honest about it than others. There are far too many button pushers on this site than haven't a clue what they are doing in terns of "design" as it is, yet claim they do since they can produce 'pretty pictures' (my niece, she can do that too, so what?? though for a 13year old she deserves the praise)- but just don't like being told otherwise....(classic immature/unprofessional behaviour)...as least Apex/Richard doesn't hide the fact. He is celebrating it! :)

I'm sure there are many out there how have gotten as much out of this thread, as Richard has put into it.

My 2/c worth..

[bdVlajko]

O.K.
Let's get things straight without calling the other side "idiot" or "stupid" like you did. And you know nothing about me.

If this thread is to explain the process of designing the boat where are these steps ? I can only see very brief instructions on how to get pretty pictures on screen and nothing else. Of course, this is far from designing a boat and the title is misleading. I (like many others that will find this thread on google) got attracted by title just to find that thread covered almost nothing from boat design and then got crucified for complaining.

Yes, it is nice to know which button to push to get a boat picture but I would rather see you smart guys explain to novices why some nice picture may not be a nice boat. Why isn't there some brief instructions on how to check boat stability for example ? Or to explain the meaning of some coefficients from hydrostatic report ? What about some basic characteristics of different types of hull ? Selection of materials ? Not to mention propulsion, propellers etc ...

Only then would this be a "step by step to design your own boat".

As for me, I already said I learned my way by reading (not only on this forum) - not by asking. I am using Delftship (thank you Martijn) and Michlet (thank you Leo). It took me somewhere around 30 different hulls to figure out that round bilge hull with transom above the water works best for my low-speed displacement type boat project (soon to be called "design"). I wish I was able to read that in some "step by step" thread so I don't get called stupid idiot.

Regards
Vladimir

[Ad Hoc]

Vladimir
"..Yes, it is nice to know which button to push to get a boat picture but I would rather see you smart guys explain to novices why some nice picture may not be a nice boat..."

Then you are in the minority. Since many "button pushers" just want/covet praise. They don't like being told, that all their efforts are for nowt and/or their understanding is incorrect. It seems adult amateurs are very very sensitive children, to be told how to design, and, is not what they call design.

Since, I have a fist full of pathetic weak spineless comments and neg. hit points to go with them, for for trying to explain to those who would like to know...or at least say they do!

[M-Sasha]

I can only see very brief instructions on how to get pretty pictures on screen and nothing else. Of course, this is far from designing a boat and the title is misleading. I (like many others that will find this thread on google) got attracted by title just to find that thread covered almost nothing from boat design and then got crucified for complaining.

OK one must agree, that is true. The title is misleading for a complete novice.
(that does not excuse your atackks)

But when one reads carefully what comments there are very early in the thred one can see, how it was meant.

You posted a set of data one page back. If I was you, i would recalculate that by hand! Richard was right, the figures are not in line with reality. Michlet is a dangerous tool if you have not the knowledge to see the limitations!
But that is the same with every software, it is not pushing buttons as Ad Hoc says sooooo often. (and soooo right)

Sasha

[Fanie]

Hi Vladimir,

There is a problem with boats. Firstly the veriety of shapes, application and sizes is huge ! Each of them require a different set of design cryteria, which if not met can result in damage and serious injury if not fatal.

I think for the most part every one here is carefull with information regarding 'how many layers' for instance. If you run off and build a thing that destructs under speed or the boat sink because a structure collapsed under a wave and your kid drowns... God forbid ! Who are you going to blame then ?

Any one that builds a boat who does not make very sure of what he is doing must let his head read by a psycho doc. The way to check your glass and structure is to find someone that is a specialist with this and have him calculate that the requirements is.

The once you know that, you have to remember those calculations is under ideal glass process conditions, you may not have the skill or means to make such a good layup, hence have to compensate for it.

Secondly, contrary to what most believe, boat hull shapes are extremely complex. While any one can make a sloth, it is a fine art in design to make a hull function efficiently. If you make a slow and poorly designed hull, it is going to be worth less. It can be something simple on a hull that makes it economic or not. Again, an expert will be able to recognise such errors in design.

I myself have a few people I bug every now and again for advice and professional calculations. It does not matter to me if I like them or if they like me, I remain courtious towards them for what they are willing to inform me of. If they cannot or will not then I have to find the information elsewhere.

There are experts on this forum, some have vast experience. It is up to you if you want to get the knowledge from them - for free - and on their time or not. No one here is under obligation to give any one any thing. The knowledge I have gathered here in a relative short time is something one cannot buy any where.

Richard is right, there are too many things to consider than to just assume a step by step is going to get your own designed boat build. Maybe you can, but then you would not need the step by step... :D

[Fanie]

Oh, I needed to add , it has nothing to do with how stupid any one is. One is only stupid if you do not accept sound advice. Life is too short to learn from your own experiences.

[M-Sasha]

lewisboats. did Richard not ask many times to contribute here? To continue?

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/design-software/modeling-boats-freeship-techniques-using-sofware-29973.html

nice you made that! But why not much earlier, why not here?

Not enough mature guys around here. Ad Hoc was right. AGAIN

Sasha

[Fanie]

Most wanna be boat builders run off, spend a bunch on materials, then discover it is not what they really expected - it is more work than they thought, it is going to take longer, then develop wife problems, money problems and in the end they have a bad opinion of 'boat building' :D

Stick around for a while. See if it's for you... Nothing wrong with buying a boat and fix it up either.

[bdVlajko]

You posted a set of data one page back. If I was you, i would recalculate that by hand! Richard was right, the figures are not in line with reality. Michlet is a dangerous tool if you have not the knowledge to see the limitations!

I only used software to compare different hulls relative to each other. Michlet gave nice textual output in file ship_output_by_speed which I imported in excell to compare. See attached picture. These are all different hulls. If I was to build a boat with target speed of >15km/h I would select red line hull. I was more interested in low power so blue line at speeds up to 13km/h (~7 knots) was my choice. If interested, I can post .fbm file so you can play with it.

Now regarding trusting absolute values provided by michlet ... if I am to spend two-year savings for building a boat, I will triple check every damn figure before I even start. Both by computer and by hand.

[thudpucker]

For a hacker or a dreamer, the use of Freeship is just the first step in the negotiations with a real boat designer.
It's the common language.
You send the drawings of your dreams to the Designer. The designer can turn them into plans or tell you what is wrong with your dream.

Me and most other dreamers would never become designers with Freeship because of the million other parts of the design beyond the stick drawings.

One of the things I never found on Freeship was the corners at the rear, and the front corners.
That seems easy when your scratching on coffee stained napkins, but there must be a logical reason for making those corners the way its done. I've seen it done three different ways. Yea and verily I remain confused. I'll rely on Lewis for my Jon boat. And Freeship to relay my dreams to the designer.

[lewisboats]

I...AM...very much...Touched in your faith. I hope that the simple design I sent does everything it is supposed to do and not a thing that it isn't. However... The design criteria is only as relevant as the description of the proposed usage is accurate. In other words...it ain't gonna do tricks you didn't tell me it was supposed to do! I hope it faithfully does all the tricks it was designed to do for you though... for a long time to come.

[yipster]

thudpucker, "million other parts of the design" thats the idea but think its exagurated eh,, let me count...
as a fervent coffee stained napkin scratcher i have to ask what you mean by "those corners" ?

[thudpucker]

"..those corners..:)"
Lewis sent me a drawing of a simple little boat I'd like to build.
It's just the drawing, not the plans. I'm supposed to make a little cardboard boat out of the drawings etc. I didnt get that done yet, but I have confidence in his drawing.

I went to a Wooden boat show in Guntersville AL and looked at the construction of various sized Wood boats.

At the junction of the Transom, the Side and the bottom, is the corners I was referring to. The front of a Jon boat has the same corners.

Consider the Chine board that fits full length of the side and bottom.
Then the same fit where the Transom and Bottom are joined.
There are six parts all coming together at that juncture.

I saw three different ways it was done at the boat show. I don't know if they were following plans or not.

On several there was some trick n' fancy miter and bevel work down there.
That just aint me. I like strong joints. Not weak thin pieces of wood held together by glue and faith.

Another was just boards stuck together from the bottom up. Kinda the way I'd build a Shed in the Garden.

I finally thought I'd put the corner piece between the side and the Transom in first. All the way around the boat. Upside down on a bench or saw horses.
Then I'd fit the Chine board and the front n' rear seal boards to the sides, transom and front transom by Butt Joints.
Then I'd fair everything and screw the bottom to the nice framework I'd just made.

That's what I'd do. I don't know what the actual plans would call for though.

As a kid I worked as a Roofer. On new construction, the "Sheets" are laid out on a big table somewhere for all the contractors to use in making sure they are doing their part correctly.
With a good Architect, almost every nail is located in those "Sheets"
That's what I meant by a 'Million other parts' to the design (sheets).
Just think how complex something with twin engines, several fuel tanks, creature comfort plumbing, wiring, etc would be.
I look at that like making a Lace blanket. Too much detail work for a hacker like me.

[yipster]

thanks for the explanation on those corners, i understand now, in freeship open the bow and close it like a stern
you can check devellopability as these ends best dont have to much twist. lewis knows after building six it was rite?
as for the million other parts of the design i ssumed you were refering to resistance, stabilty, velocity etc
construction and how the "corners" (or how do we call them?) can be any way you like i guess, good luck !

ps. a florida roofer once told me nailing X wise was more hurricane proof and expensive ;-)

[frank smith]

"..those corners..:)"

As a kid I worked as a Roofer. On new construction, the "Sheets" are laid out on a big table somewhere for all the contractors to use in making sure they are doing their part correctly.
With a good Architect, almost every nail is located in those "Sheets"
That's what I meant by a 'Million other parts' to the design (sheets).
Just think how complex something with twin engines, several fuel tanks, creature comfort plumbing, wiring, etc would be.
I look at that like making a Lace blanket. Too much detail work for a hacker like me.

As a builder for 35 years I can tell you that it would be luck if the architect had the door in the right place .

sorry Apex ,looks like another hijack

[M-Sasha]

GOD I'M HAVING FUN WITH THIS THREAD....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(makes a 7 day work week of night shifts worth it.... being able to play at something that is FUN)


OK...so I need a life....I just can't find one that suits my schedule! :P :confused: :o :(

Long ago, but so it started!

and got a positive echo

But as mentioned above, as soon as we have managed to produce some sort of "buildable" shape, I would like to leave the further step to next step, tutorial to the better skilled part of our audience.

And thanks for the contribution! Exactly that way I had in mind when starting this thread, to supplement with others advice!

Regards
Richard

then
Merde

the first post with negative touch.

now on his own thread
Nasty!

I simply don't subscribe to the way the thread is running. If you have a useful comment to make please join in ...if not...shoo fly!
I made my points! If you would take the time to re-read the whole thread and see...they were dismissed when it came down to brass tacks. I have since endured a number of distasteful PMs from the author of that thread and I have decided to try and rectify things with a serious thread aimed at what I thought the original one was going to do. So...again...I say...If you wish to contribute with something substantial and related to the thread...by all means have at it...otherwise take the nasty comments back to the other (what has become) mud slinging thread. Deselect all!
Do you really think that I would be allowed THAT much leeway in THAT thread...to post like I am doing now? Me thinks I would be accused of hijacking the thread in a most severe way...don't you?! Deselect all


What a sad individual.

Sasha

[apex1]

Ahhh ja.

All said already.

Enjoy your Sunday peers (and Vladimir, Frank, and Lewisboaty too of course)

[fcfc]

Nobody confuses this software output http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=97202 with automotive engineering. :confused: For boats, it is absolutely exactly the same thing.

[Mr Meebles]

Gentlemen: enough said about protocols - this is a GREAT thread!

Please, could somebody tell me how to use the "keel/rudder" function to put appendages on adeveloped hull?

I suspect that it is a "layer" function, but I'm still toddling when it comes to uses that...

Any help that the experts can provide will be geatly appreciated

S/F, Phil

[thudpucker]

I just wanted to make a sketch drawing of an add-on porch. I wanted to know how many 2X's etc I needed.
I downloaded about four of those 'easy to do' programs.
I wound up doing it with a pencil on a napkin at coffee one morning.

[Fanie]

Solid Edge have their 2D cad drawing for free. Unfortunately there isn't an easy to do program that is worth using you can just use and get what you want. It should be doable though. Some of the PCB programs are going that way. It's almost logic to use them, so the learning curve is maybe an hour. Who knows, maybe one day someone other than a melancholy engineeer would write software that works easy.

[Mr Meebles]

Can porches sail (in the absence of hurricances)?

[frank smith]

Can porches sail (in the absence of hurricances)?

That would depend on what you are smoking .

[frank smith]

Gentlemen: enough said about protocols - this is a GREAT thread!

Please, could somebody tell me how to use the "keel/rudder" function to put appendages on adeveloped hull?

I suspect that it is a "layer" function, but I'm still toddling when it comes to uses that...

Any help that the experts can provide will be geatly appreciated

S/F, Phil

You might get help posting this to a Freeships thread . But I am sure it is not to hard ,
Just look around for rudder and keel stuff.