bridge design - feedback request

[expedition]

We're converting a former trawler into an 132 ft expedition yacht and would like to invite captains and officers to give their feedback on how the ideal bridge should look like. Not from an owners-gadget perspective but as a functional and pleasant working environment.

Visit the link below and let us hear from you.

http://www.expeditionyacht.org/navigation-communication-equipment/bridge-layout-equipment

Thanks!

[mydauphin]

I would make seat area behind wheel one piece, so that someone can sleep there if necessary. Perhaps another chair on left. A 3d view would be helpful.

[marshmat]

I like the general layout you've sketched, Thorwald. Everything close at hand, room for a few folks to comfortably enjoy the task of piloting a big boat.

Some ideas:
- Where will the on-watch nap? Being able to stretch out on that couch could be pretty appealing if you end up on a long, boring passage away from the shipping lanes.
- Lotsa LCD screens on there, you'd better make sure they're easily dimmable. Some aren't readily dimmable without flipping through menus. It's not easy to quickly jump from a bright LCD to a dark view outside.
- How big is that chart table? With that much space, it'd be awesome to have room for a 36"x48" chart plus a couple of reference tables, without having to fold or rearrange things every few minutes.
- Have you had a look at the Dashews' site ( http://www.setsail.com ) yet? Their new power yachts have a very unusual, but reportedly very comfortable and efficient, helm station layout.

I'm a small-boat guy, can't afford anything big or fancy, so even thinking about so much space has me envious....

[expedition]

Hi guys,

Thanks for your comments.

In fact, I want to make that center piece on the couch removable. Of course, on a vessel like this you'd normally have a 4-hour watch and are expected to stay awake (on my last Atlantic crossing the watch alarm took are of that :-)).

Yes, lots of screens. At least one too many and I'm very aware of the dimming issue. We had a test computer last time with the Freetechnics system. A pain to get the 'night scheme' and even then it was WAY to clear. Now, this may have had something to do with the monitor but still, it's a very important issue.

I planned to make the chart table 48" wide but not 36" deep but about 20". In order to not have to fold the charts I had a slot in mind on each side to move the chart into. My experience is that you usually use less than half the chart - if at all - so this is a nice compromise I think.

I know the Dashews's site. Haven't been there for some time and will have a look again.

Thorwald

[Stumble]

I really like the layout you have now, but a few things cross my mind.

One thing that has always bothered me about almost every boat I have piloted is the discomfort of sitting at the helm and having to stretch to reach the wheel. I would really recommend taking a look at the auto industry and the book of measurements they use to make the drivers seat comfortable.

Secondly even if you assume that watches will be 4 hours, there are a lot of times an off watch person may be trying to nap on the bridge, for any number of reasons. So I would suggest having the couch able to be screened off from the rest of the bridge to allow someone to take a quick nap.

I don't see it here, but how far is the nearest head to the bridge? Nothing sucks more than having to run all the way across the boat either to answer the call of nature or to get water for the next pot of coffee. Which also raises the issue of having a small beverage station nearby. Just a mini-fridge and a coffee pot would be fine, but I promise you if you don't design them in, they will grow within weeks of commisioning.

[mark775]

All input from people who have obviously been there. I don't know what "on-watch" napping is. The scenarios where someone needs to sleep on the bridge is that the captain is exhausted and trusts the mate but "not as much as himself" (in a sustained blow, for example) or, the off-watch crew is exhausted but will be needed again shortly.
I know, boats of this caliber have chart tables but really? It's an anachronism.
I would put two helm chairs side by side always as hearty conversation keeps the mind sharp, word games, more eyes to spot that growler, etc.. Speaking of growlers, absolutely the best spotlight money can buy should be controlled from the AB's seat.
Open spaces are nice to think about and great at home, but if this boat sees mean stuff, you're gonna' want something to fall against EVERYWHERE (I didn't look at the scale but nothing is as irritating as having someone fall against your seat or use it as a brace when in a tense situation. Be aware that seats are not hand holds)
I envy you associated with such a fine vessel.

[mark775]

32469
One of the best boat pics I have ever seen.

[mydauphin]

Good point on hand holds. On my boat I have wall behind and to side(behind it is head) for all the safety and cameras, alarms tell me to look. That way I only have one monitor in front for lighting issues. Worked real hard adjusting monitor to get color scheme right. Of course my boat is bit smaller but bridge is also social place. I have sit down place for 6 in booth, controls a little to side.
Less work more play, but then I am captain...

Where is radio room, sonar etc... In a true expedition boat, you might be adding more gear in future. I would put in Chart table area, a separate computer screen, a chair and places to mount more equipment.

Then it would look more like the Enterprise...

[apex1]

The monitor wall is too massive, even if you have monitors that are low dimmable. Place them a bit off center enabling the watchkeeper to look out without having a monitor in direct sight line. Reduce the number of monitors by using Navnet or similar bus technology. Replace the couch and chart table. The table should be behind the helms chair (the light is either not sufficient to work at the charts or too much, disturbing the eye, at the present position). A good master is using charts almost as much as in the past ages, so make the table full size. Have a monitor at the chart table to be able watching the radar / c-map while working the charts. Install a WC with a forward facing window (and a curtain) adjacent to, or better at the bridge. Install a vertical wheel. A perfect helmseat position is not possible to achieve, so, it is better to handle the wheel by feet than to lean forward and down to do that. Have a tiller lever at the armrest. Have a cupholder at the chair (away from electronics and convenient to reach at. Same for the binocular pocket (opposite side of the chair). Clad the instrument table in dark leather (reflections). Have a dedicated and convenient place for the Radar keyboard. Do´nt have the radio in overhead position! The oscillating Mic. cable is tedious and the watchkeeper unconsciously is neglecting the sector of view. Have a comfortable floor to stand on ("Tartan" is a good choice), many people (me included) prefer standing at the helm during tricky passages. That may last for 16 hours or more, a soft floor is a noticeable addition to reduce fatigue.
If the boat is going to have guests on long passages, do not install a fridge, do´nt make the wheelhouse a too attractive place for guests. It is terribly annoying to have guests at the bridge nearly all day long!
On your homepage you ask for brands. On a vessel this size there is only one preferred: Furuno.

Matt
the Dashews layout is a bit away from being good! They do´nt even have a proper monitor position. Though I like the well thought concept of the vessel, that point was not perfect.

The first two pictures below show two examples of a good console layout, the left one is the better due to the chart table in the right position (lower left corner of the pic.. the 3rd is acceptable, the last one is not.

Regards
Richard

[expedition]

Hi,

Well, we won't have a wheel :-). Just a little stick which may be incorporated in the chair but I think we won't because I think it's good practice for the person on watch to walk around once in a while.

In my view, if they are on watch, under voyage, they should not take a nap. But at any case, I plan to make the center part removable.

He head is just behind the bridge, 10 steps away. There's also a bar and fridge there + coffee machine.

[expedition]

32469
One of the best boat pics I have ever seen.

I had a lot of fun taking it swimming in the middle of the Atlantic.

5 minutes later I took the shot shown here.
http://www.expeditionyacht.org/entertainment-toys/personal-blimp

Ok, maybe I Photoshopped it a little bit..

[expedition]

Hi Mark,

I kind of agree with the anachronism but restrained myself :-).

Thought about 2 chairs but I think they'll be kind of in the way and there's enough seating area anyway.

And there will be handholds for sure. If you see the video on my site, you can see we saw some mean stuff and we plan to be able to go there again if needed.

All input from people who have obviously been there. I don't know what "on-watch" napping is. The scenarios where someone needs to sleep on the bridge is that the captain is exhausted and trusts the mate but "not as much as himself" (in a sustained blow, for example) or, the off-watch crew is exhausted but will be needed again shortly.
I know, boats of this caliber have chart tables but really? It's an anachronism.
I would put two helm chairs side by side always as hearty conversation keeps the mind sharp, word games, more eyes to spot that growler, etc.. Speaking of growlers, absolutely the best spotlight money can buy should be controlled from the AB's seat.
Open spaces are nice to think about and great at home, but if this boat sees mean stuff, you're gonna' want something to fall against EVERYWHERE (I didn't look at the scale but nothing is as irritating as having someone fall against your seat or use it as a brace when in a tense situation. Be aware that seats are not hand holds)
I envy you associated with such a fine vessel.

[expedition]

I like that idea of separate area with screens for video views, alarm lights, etc.

Radio room? Like a room? No such plan but we do plan to get a Farsounder Sonar.

Good point on hand holds. On my boat I have wall behind and to side(behind it is head) for all the safety and cameras, alarms tell me to look. That way I only have one monitor in front for lighting issues. Worked real hard adjusting monitor to get color scheme right. Of course my boat is bit smaller but bridge is also social place. I have sit down place for 6 in booth, controls a little to side.
Less work more play, but then I am captain...

Where is radio room, sonar etc... In a true expedition boat, you might be adding more gear in future. I would put in Chart table area, a separate computer screen, a chair and places to mount more equipment.

Then it would look more like the Enterprise...

[expedition]

Dear Richard,

Great feedback.

Indeed, there will be less monitors - at least at that location: 2 most llikely. We'll be using bus technology so don't really need more. I'm afraid I wont' follow the advice on the chart table but all the other advice, thanks !

I'll keep the bar/fridge/toilet where they are, behind the bridge.

And yes, we're going Furuno.

The monitor wall is too massive, even if you have monitors that are low dimmable. Place them a bit off center enabling the watchkeeper to look out without having a monitor in direct sight line. Reduce the number of monitors by using Navnet or similar bus technology. Replace the couch and chart table. The table should be behind the helms chair (the light is either not sufficient to work at the charts or too much, disturbing the eye, at the present position). A good master is using charts almost as much as in the past ages, so make the table full size. Have a monitor at the chart table to be able watching the radar / c-map while working the charts. Install a WC with a forward facing window (and a curtain) adjacent to, or better at the bridge. Install a vertical wheel. A perfect helmseat position is not possible to achieve, so, it is better to handle the wheel by feet than to lean forward and down to do that. Have a tiller lever at the armrest. Have a cupholder at the chair (away from electronics and convenient to reach at. Same for the binocular pocket (opposite side of the chair). Clad the instrument table in dark leather (reflections). Have a dedicated and convenient place for the Radar keyboard. Do´nt have the radio in overhead position! The oscillating Mic. cable is tedious and the watchkeeper unconsciously is neglecting the sector of view. Have a comfortable floor to stand on ("Tartan" is a good choice), many people (me included) prefer standing at the helm during tricky passages. That may last for 16 hours or more, a soft floor is a noticeable addition to reduce fatigue.
If the boat is going to have guests on long passages, do not install a fridge, do´nt make the wheelhouse a too attractive place for guests. It is terribly annoying to have guests at the bridge nearly all day long!
On your homepage you ask for brands. On a vessel this size there is only one preferred: Furuno.

Matt
the Dashews layout is a bit away from being good! They do´nt even have a proper monitor position. Though I like the well thought concept of the vessel, that point was not perfect.

The first two pictures below show two examples of a good console layout, the left one is the better due to the chart table in the right position (lower left corner of the pic.. the 3rd is acceptable, the last one is not.

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

Radio Room? A lot of people myself included, enjoy listening to various transmission from throughout world. Shortwave, SSB, CB, Scanners, Satellite, etc... In a true expedition ship you may get a group that wants to install all kinds of new stuff. Perhaps a radio room is a bit much but I have a radio Desk.

Point is leave plenty of room for equipment, power, wiring and antennas. Think beyond the regular, and in 5 years you will be happy you don't have to rewire boat.

[apex1]

Think beyond the regular, and in 5 years you will be happy you don't have to rewire boat.

You may have overlooked that they are using a bus system! So, rewiring is never a issue.

Regards
Richard

[expedition]

Good point. We'll certainly leave enough space, including for future wiring and antenna cables .

[mydauphin]

You may have overlooked that they are using a bus system! So, rewiring is never a issue.

Regards
Richard

Always remember the top of the line bus system today is obsolete in 5-10 years
Install raceways, lots of power and flexibility to change from day one.

[apex1]

I doubt that CAN bus, Ethernet and NMEA 2000 will be out of use within the next 25 years. CAN was developed in 1983!
But naturally additional space, power and raceways are never wrong. Especially if one is a kind of tinkerer.

[mydauphin]

I doubt that CAN bus, Ethernet and NMEA 2000 will be out of use within the next 25 years. CAN was developed in 1983!
But naturally additional space, power and raceways are never wrong. Especially if one is a kind of tinkerer.

Remember 25 years ago, see that 2009 minus 25 = 1984
1983 Microsoft Windows was announced November, 1983
1984 Docutel/Olivetti introduce the Olivetti PC, compatible with the IBM PC on January 3.
1984 On January 4th Netherlands Antilles issues a 45-cent postage stamp of a computer making a newspaper.
1984 Hitachi announces it has developed the first memory chip capable of holding 1MB on January 5th.
1984 IBM's AT computer is introduced.
1984 The MUD was known as MAD becomes the first global MUD and runs across BITNET.
1984 IBM introduces its first portable computer, the IBM Portable weighing in at 30 pounds.
1984 SETI is founded.
1984 ESS Technologies is founded.
1984 Guillemot is founded.
1984 Amiga is purchased by Commodore Business Machines on August 15th.
1984 Bill Gates is featured on the cover of Time magazine.
1984 The 3.5-inch floppy diskette is introduced and later becomes an industry standard.
1984 Dell Computer is founded May 3, 1984 in Austin Texas.
1984 Paul Mockapetris and Jon Postel introduce DNS.
1984 The now famous Apple commercial is shown during the Super Bowl, the commercial introduces the Apple Macintosh, a computer with graphical user interface instead of needing to type in commands. In six months sales of the computer reach 100,000.
1984 Dhrystone is developed.
1984 IBM develops EGA.
1984 The computer Museum opens in downtown Boston.
1984 Microsoft introduces MS-DOS 3.0 for the IBM PC AT and MS-DOS 3.1 for networks.
1984 The Tandy 1000 personal computer is introduced and becomes the best-selling IBM-compatible computer of the year.
1984 IBM introduces the Enhanced Graphics Adapter (EGA) video card with higher resolution, more colors, and a quicker response then previous video cards.
1984 University of Southern California professor Fred Cohen creates alarm when he warns the public about computer viruses in his Computer Virus - Theory and Experiments paper.
1984 The beginning of the greatest adventure computer gaming series is released by Sierra. Kings Quest 1: Quest for the crown is released to the public.
1984 The Yellow book of CD-ROM standards is written.
1984 Cirrus is established.
1984 ISA is expanded to 16-bit capability.
1985 On January 4th at CES, Commodore introduces the Commodore 128 PC with 8502 processor 128 kB of RAM and ROM cartridge port.
1985 On January 4th at CES, Atari introduces the Atari 130XE, 130ST, 260ST, 520ST, 65XE, 65XEM, and 65XEP computers.
1985 The GNU manifesto is published by Dr. Dobb's Journal
1985 Software Arts assets are sold to Lotus. Software Arts is most well known for its VisiCalc program.
1985 The Amiga aka A1000 is introduced..
1985 PNY Technologies is founded.
1985 Dell releases its first computer, the "Turbo PC."
1985 Titus Interactive is founded.
1985 Microtek introduces the world's first 300-dpi black-and-white sheetfed scanner.
1985 Quantum Computer Services is founded, this company later becomes AOL.
1985 Microsoft and IBM begin collaboration on the next-generation operating system (OS/2).
1985 The computer company Gateway 2000 is founded in Siox City, Iowa on September 5, 1985.
1985 CAT1 wiring is introduced.
1985 Intel introduces the 80386 in October.
1985 Paul Brainard of Aldus Corporation introduces Pagemaker for the Macintosh, a program that lets users mix type and graphics on the same page. The combination of this software and the new Apple LaserWriter laser printer helps create the desktop publishing field.
1985 The Mach Project begins at the Carnegie Mellon University.
1985 IBM develops NetBEUI.
1985 Microsoft Windows 1.0 is introduced in November, 1985 and is initially sold for $100.00.
1985 The Nintendo Entertainment System makes its debut.
1985 ATI is founded.
1985 Boca is established.
1985 Corel is founded.
1985 Gravis is founded.

Tell me you know what is going to happen in 10 years...

[apex1]

For sure I know!
CAN bus, Ethernet, and NMEA 2000 are still the standards in the marine bus- industry, that is what we see in ten years.
That is a pretty safe bet, because it is a time consuming and expensive task to install a new industrial standard worldwide. I.e. NMEA 2000 did not completely replace NMEA 183 until today! After almost ten years!

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

The first two pictures below show two examples of a good console layout, the left one is the better due to the chart table in the right position (lower left corner of the pic.. the 3rd is acceptable, the last one is not.


Richard,
Tell me what don't you like about last setup?

[apex1]

Richard,
Tell me what don't you like about last setup?

Do´nt understand the question mate.
Richard

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by apex1

The first two pictures below show two examples of a good console layout, the left one is the better due to the chart table in the right position (lower left corner of the pic.. the 3rd is acceptable, the last one is not.

What is wrong with last one, I kind of like it, looks a little cramp.

[apex1]

[/U]

What is wrong with last one, I kind of like it, looks a little cramp.

Well, the flat surface in front of the instruments is useless, the cup holder in front of the E panel is not the best place. The monitors are out of direct sightline (good) but here they are a bit too much out of sight, should face inwards a bit.
Passenger seating is too close to helm position (this is a 45m Format not a 60´ blue water sailer where you want your wife close to you), and do´nt face forward.
Yes a bit cramp, I would prefer it a bit opener, you usually walk around on longer watches if possible.
But the helm seat is a good one (Recaro i guess).
All four are more or less good, I should´nt have used the term acceptable. Hakvoort is a premium Yard, they do´nt do crap.

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

Good eyesight Richard. I missed cup holders. Maybe good to hold spare breakers... It is a little cramp in spite of being pretty big. Would you say chair is well position with steering wheel at least for foot steering. I never steered a ship sitting down.

I am thinking of putting monitors on top of windows. I have height in my bridge. These monitor would be used for video of surroundings, news, and miscellaneous stuff. What do you think of this idea?

I am also thinking of placing lounge area under windows and putting steering console toward one side. I have outside upstairs bridge that would be getting most of the use, so inside bridge is for bad weather. What do you think of this idea. I am trying to do some drawings.

[marshmat]

Monitors above the windows- I suppose it could work. Looking up is not comfortable for very long, so anything up there would have to be for things you aren't constantly checking- CCTV camera feeds from the side decks, that sort of thing. It would look way cool, for sure.

LCD monitors should really be within 20, maybe 30 degrees of normal to the line of sight. A large, flat array (like the last picture in post #9) looks cool, but the outermost screens are at too big an angle to the helm to be useful. If one person will be conning the boat, that one person should be able to view all necessary information just by turning their head, without leaving the helm. Monitor banks would thus take the form of semicircular arcs, centred on the helm chair.

Also on this note, control panels for frequently accessed functions should be within arm's reach from the helm. Anything more than 80 cm from the centre of the helmsman's torso is too far away to use without moving around. As I've mentioned before, I'm a small-boat guy and don't have most of these gadgets. If I were setting up a big-boat bridge, I'd want (at a minimum) the engine controls, autopilot control, radar keyboard and the keypad of the VHF within arm's reach.

As anyone with a laptop computer will testify, a comfortable position for controls and keyboards is somewhat too close for a display screen, especially if you'll be just glancing at the display before looking back outside. A two-tier setup, with controls at about 60-80 cm from the operator and displays in a large arc somewhat farther back, is often a comfortable way of setting things up.

Pulling key controls close enough to the helm to be easily reachable will almost certainly result in a control station that more closely resembles a jet aircraft than a ship. If you want the big open bridge look, some sacrifices in ergonomics for the one-person case must be made.

If you will always have multiple crew on the bridge, of course, things can be different. In this case it may make a lot of sense to spread things out among two or three stations.

[apex1]

Good eyesight Richard. I missed cup holders. Maybe good to hold spare breakers... It is a little cramp in spite of being pretty big. Would you say chair is well position with steering wheel at least for foot steering. I never steered a ship sitting down.

I am thinking of putting monitors on top of windows. I have height in my bridge. These monitor would be used for video of surroundings, news, and miscellaneous stuff. What do you think of this idea?

I am also thinking of placing lounge area under windows and putting steering console toward one side. I have outside upstairs bridge that would be getting most of the use, so inside bridge is for bad weather. What do you think of this idea. I am trying to do some drawings.

Well, it is nesseccary to have some sort of vast overview if one has to command a ship, I guess.
The chair is in the right position (always just a bad compromise). Today the AP does the job and steering is usually done by hand in tight quarters only (even then mostly with a tiller). And I do it like you, if handsteering is choosen I do it standing at the wheel.
The monitors overhead is a nono, they produce senseless pictures (too small), disturb the eye (fatigue) and are inconvenient to read (high angle). Security monitors as Matt mentioned could be placed overhead but not within 1,2 meter from centerline of the wheel (that means you cannot read them anyway). The overhead panel is good for searchlight control, windvane, and the displays of your backup systems (if low dimming is possible) and all the fancy little chistmas gimmick gifts, bridge clock, baro, inclinometer etc. (all in brass naturally). Never allow a TV connected monitor at the helm, never! (except it is only you and your female admiral doing the job, of course).
If there is no Palm tree at the foredeck (where some silly people hang fabrics at), I prefer a centered steering position and would not give it up for any sort of convenience. But of course that is just a very personal preference, and I am talking about passagemaking (as in all of my statements) only, not weekend sailing.
That is the industries luck, that 99% of theyr customers do´nt know that 99% of the boats a far below a sensible standard of ergonomics.
The pictures 1 and 2 show pretty much what I prefer (pic.1 is about ten years old now, the PC monitor is a flatscreen now), a single purpose bridge. A no nonsense, no food no beverage at the helm, this is a workstation, bridge. And this is the boat from the outside:............the right one..

[mydauphin]

"Security monitors as Matt mentioned could be placed overhead but not within 1,2 meter from centerline of the wheel (that means you cannot read them anyway)." Why?

What do you all think of these three...

[apex1]

"Security monitors as Matt mentioned could be placed overhead but not within 1,2 meter from centerline of the wheel (that means you cannot read them anyway)." Why?

What do you all think of these three...

To be out of the direct sight line at night, mydauphin. And the pictures you posted show all pretty much reflections especially the last two (I guess a fast passenger CAT bridge?). Who will handle the VHF radio in the first pic. ? What does the second show? A wheelstation in the basement?

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

The second is a Wally 70' , it looks like center console all by itself in bridge. the spaceship one is a fast yacht , it is very car like. Visibility might be issue here. But offers speedboat type setup. May be I like this idea for upper bridge.

[mark775]

When I read through the posts, I discover that there where things I didn't think of... cup holder the hell away from the electronics, for example. I have discovered throughout this forum that there are many viable options that don't agree with my take - so weigh the input and decide.
Old school masters may want a chart table for whatever reason ...but plotting fixes on a paper chart is, what I'll stand by, an anachronism. In fact, I believe store-bought paper charts are probably mostly on their way out (for ships with variable itineraries, down-loadable up-to-date ones, compatible with on-board printers, will undoubtedly be invented soon, if not already). The plus side to paper? They look quaint laminated on a small-craft setee table (an up-to-date chart for any area one might traverse should be held in reserve, however).

[apex1]

When I read through the posts, I discover that there where things I didn't think of... cup holder the hell away from the electronics, for example. I have discovered throughout this forum that there are many viable options that don't agree with my take - so weigh the input and decide.
Old school masters may want a chart table for whatever reason ...but plotting fixes on a paper chart is, what I'll stand by, an anachronism. In fact, I believe store-bought paper charts are probably mostly on their way out (for ships with variable itineraries, down-loadable up-to-date ones, compatible with on-board printers, will undoubtedly be invented soon, if not already). The plus side to paper? They look quaint laminated on a small-craft setee table (an up-to-date chart for any area one might traverse should be held in reserve, however).

Cupholders have to be at the chair, as I mentioned, so all you can destroy is your good mood. Paper charts do´nt fail! For example, I still use them as a sort of insurance not to miss a buoy in unknown channels. I lay my Circle with one peak on the buoy just passed, the other on the one ahead, when passing this, I move the former peak to the next buoy. Grandfathers practice, but still valid. Another point is to compare a Radar picture with something really reliable. The chartplotter overlay may fit your radar picture, but often does´nt although both devices show the same area. As a developer I can tell you that we still use printouts of our CAD generated phantasies to get a feeling of what we have done. And quite often we notice minor faults made on screen. Same is valid for all electronic devices we use today, you overlook things too easy.


Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

When I read through the posts, I discover that there where things I didn't think of... cup holder the hell away from the electronics, for example. I have discovered throughout this forum that there are many viable options that don't agree with my take - so weigh the input and decide.
Old school masters may want a chart table for whatever reason ...but plotting fixes on a paper chart is, what I'll stand by, an anachronism. In fact, I believe store-bought paper charts are probably mostly on their way out (for ships with variable itineraries, down-loadable up-to-date ones, compatible with on-board printers, will undoubtedly be invented soon, if not already). The plus side to paper? They look quaint laminated on a small-craft setee table (an up-to-date chart for any area one might traverse should be held in reserve, however).

Now matter how big a screen, a chart is easier to read, gives you better feel for scale, doesn't require power and you can sit around table, pin on wall and throw darts. I do like goggle earth....

[wardd]

as a firm believer in redundancy suppose a lightning strike and all electronics are fried.

charts, Bowditch, sextant, chrono, compass and a working ability to use them

[mark775]

I know, I know. I whole-heartedly believe in redundancy. I always keep charts - in sealed tubes. I just don't believe there needs to be room dedicated to them in the traditional manner, a chart table. To each their own - you could just not hire somebody like me that actually looks at a chart just for license upgrades...I didn't mean to start a controversy and we don't even need to finish because I'll change my tune - Given a nearly unlimited amount of space a chart table would be a nice addition.

[apex1]

I'll change my tune - Given a nearly unlimited amount of space a chart table would be a nice addition.

Thats the point! We did start talking about that issue (and I never changed the direction), looking at the possible addition of a chart table on a real bridge, not a small yachts wheelstation.

Regards
Richard

[mark775]

Sorry for the tangent but I don't think it warrants it's own thread. I know people going to sea should carry and know how to use a sextant and its accessories but how many masters of the required tonnage of the vessel in question actually have the working knowledge? Sailboaters - some, because they have lots of time. Guys who drug themselves through the hawsepipe to get the papers to run a workboat like that - I suspect darn few.
The guy running the boat didn't go to an acadamy. If he knows how to use a sextant well, he's a sailboater - and that means he doesn't have much ship-handling experience of this type. 99% of the time, he's fumbling through the parts, trying to remember what does what, looking through it the wrong way, only to have a "chronometer" that's off, rendering the exersize meaningless. No offence, I'm talking percentages here.

[mark775]

You're right, Richard.

[expedition]

It's been some time but here's an updated lay-out of our bridge of our trawler to yacht conversion.

I've incorporated several of your suggestions and added doors in the side. I think this will greatly improve the traffic flow. Of course we won't forget the cupholders :-)

There's room for a computer on the port side of the chart desk and there will also be a monitor here that gives access to anything that's available to the helmsman position. This area can be sealed of with a curtain in order not to blind the helmsman when checking out say CCTV camera's or other stuff that creates more light than wanted.

Some people told me 2 helmchairs would be a minimum. I don't think so and didn't want to sacrifice the space. Whoever wants to join the person on watch can sit on the bench, stand arouind or take his chair :-).

To compare with the old layout, see www.expeditionyacht.org. It also has an initial list of equipment.

Thanks again for all your input.

Thorwald

[apex1]

Are these smaller dots on both sides the engine controls?

Don´t do that mistake! Engine instruments have to sit side by side for every information given. Both oil pressure displays side by side, both rpm displays side by side etc. (analog of course)
That way you can notice every irregular figure without really "reading" the instruments, you just perceive there are different indicator readings.

With the common (and dumb) system you have to fully read and grasp the data for both engines.

And one helmchair is enough, I agree.

Regards
Richard

[expedition]

Hi Richard,

No. That's still a remainder of the old layout with the handles controlling the winches (of this former fishing trawler). All engine instruments will be shown on monitors through a (class approved) automation and monitoring system (from Marble Automation).

We also may end up with a straight panel instead of the current 'U' shape.

[apex1]

Hi Richard,

No. That's still a remainder of the old layout with the handles controlling the winches (of this former fishing trawler). All engine instruments will be shown on monitors through a (class approved) automation and monitoring system (from Marble Automation).

We also may end up with a straight panel instead of the current 'U' shape.

A poor solution, really!
All those engine monitoring / management systems are **** in terms of display quality.

Crisp clear, reliable, exact, yes, they are. Most of them allow for analog display too, nice.

But when you compare with a old analog gauge, they are much less "intuitive" to read!

Imagine two oil pressure gauges mounted side by side, as it has to be done.

You must never watch them deliberately, when there is a slight difference in the readings, you immediately notice that.
Not so on a digital display which you have to read, translate and understand. And not so on a monitor with 12 different values displayed at the same time.

I go for the old gauges, no matter how high tech the boat. (and every black smith in Vanuatu has a replacement)

My experience, others may have different thoughts.

Richard

[wardd]

Are these smaller dots on both sides the engine controls?

Don´t do that mistake! Engine instruments have to sit side by side for every information given. Both oil pressure displays side by side, both rpm displays side by side etc. (analog of course)
That way you can notice every irregular figure without really "reading" the instruments, you just perceive there are different indicator readings.

With the common (and dumb) system you have to fully read and grasp the data for both engines.

And one helmchair is enough, I agree.

Regards
Richard


in the military aircraft I worked on the instruments were set in the panel so the needles were vertical when in the normal range even if the instrument was at 45 or 90 degrees, that way any needle not vertical meant something was wrong and could be seen at a glance

[marshmat]

in the military aircraft I worked on the instruments were set in the panel so the needles were vertical when in the normal range even if the instrument was at 45 or 90 degrees, that way any needle not vertical meant something was wrong and could be seen at a glance
I've seen a few speedboats set up like that, too. It looks weird at the dock, but makes a lot of sense when in use- any abnormal reading is immediately obvious.

[apex1]

It looks weird at the dock,

And that is the reason why even I do not install the instruments as I recommend.

Joe pedestrian, at the fancy boatshow does not grasp the reason, therefore they are mountd the "right" way, port engine left, stbd. engine right, looks nice and symmetric. On the larger craft, where you have a personal contact to the client, thats different of course.

But thats not Thorwalds problem, the customer owns the boat already.

Thorwald reread my recommendation on the VHF positioning. I have seen half a dozen newbuilt´s in the past 4 weeks, all have the same, idiotic overhead setup.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/onboard-electronics-controls/bridge-design-feedback-request-27838.html#post280761

Richard

[wardd]

And that is the reason why even I do not install the instruments as I recommend.

Joe pedestrian, at the fancy boatshow does not grasp the reason, therefore they are mountd the "right" way, port engine left, stbd. engine right, looks nice and symmetric. On the larger craft, where you have a personal contact to the client, thats different of course.

But thats not Thorwalds problem, the customer owns the boat already.

Thorwald reread my recommendation on the VHF positioning. I have seen half a dozen newbuilt´s in the past 4 weeks, all have the same, idiotic overhead setup.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/onboard-electronics-controls/bridge-design-feedback-request-27838.html#post280761

Richard


in aviation in my experience all instruments are grouped by function some with white lines around each group so you know all instruments within that box have the same function for all engines or systems

[larry larisky]

We're converting a former trawler into an 132 ft expedition yacht and would like to invite captains and officers to give their feedback on how the ideal bridge should look like. Not from an owners-gadget perspective but as a functional and pleasant working environment.

Visit the link below and let us hear from you.

http://www.expeditionyacht.org/navigation-communication-equipment/bridge-layout-equipment

Thanks!

nice ship. my kind of ship. i worked on them. no fancy electronics like yours. but your ship is a yacht, so money is not a problem..

[BTPost]

One of the biggest mistakes made in Bridge Design, is to group the Radios in one place, especially when more than one VHF Radio is required for Compliance with the Bridge to Bridge Radiotelephone Act, here in the USA. It is very hard to figure out which radio, is Squawking at you, without watching the Display if they are next to each other. Get them mounted Right, and Left,of the Operating Position, so you know by where the sound is coming from, which radio is Squawking, and which one to answer. Been on MANY vessels over the years and, rarely are the VHF's Bunched up, once they leave the shipyard for the Maiden Voyage. Just Say'en...

[mydauphin]

One of the biggest mistakes made in Bridge Design, is to group the Radios in one place, especially when more than one VHF Radio is required for Compliance with the Bridge to Bridge Radiotelephone Act, here in the USA. It is very hard to figure out which radio, is Squawking at you, without watching the Display if they are next to each other. Get them mounted Right, and Left,of the Operating Position, so you know by where the sound is coming from, which radio is Squawking, and which one to answer. Been on MANY vessels over the years and, rarely are the VHF's Bunched up, once they leave the shipyard for the Maiden Voyage. Just Say'en...

Good point and also learn to have multiple radios gps, antennas, using multiple power sources feeding different parts of bridge. No single source of failure and then I have radios in boxes.

[FAST FRED]

On the stuff I flew the gauges were mounted so all were parallel with the deck in normal cruise.Everything in a neat row ,,,, all's well.

The old DC 8's had dozens and dozens at the flight engineers station, all that was required was to lean back and look for a limp needle .

Another concept from aviation is a grease pencil, just put a mark over all the needles and you don't have to remember a thing , just take a look to see changes.

Most aircraft have colored rings on the gauges , green for fine , yellow to take a look and see whats up, and red to show out of limits.

All these are sold really cheap on line from any aircraft builders source.


We operate as a yacht , so not all watch standers have any training on our boat.

I really like a setup with Murphy Mfg Co gauges.

These have hi or low settable points that can ring an alarm, or if you prefer , secure the engine automatically.

Most are mechanical, tho electric is sold too.

WE prefer the extra safety of the mechanical as the diesel runs fine with no electric , so why not be able to monitor it ?

With "yacht" style crewing , the watch stander is sitting on a comfy couch in the pilot house ,AP remote control in hand , with 360 deg visibility and a lap top visible being fed by a GPS.

Needless to say the exact engine limits are not memorized by the watchstander ( or gauges that easy to see) so a close set alarm gets the skipper in an instant when the horn blows. Viva Pavlov!

FF

[Anytec1210]

The problems with monitors at night are easy improved by lowering their positions. Most helm stations are not designed for this, and those who are still tend to become more like a pile of gear on top of a table in front of you.

In my office I have this layout, where the monitors are lowered almost down to your knees, giving you a perfect balance between access and control over your instruments and a clear non interfered view to the outside. It has been done with a more car/truck driver seat in mind rather than the traditional ship bride.

Se this as an example to really think about the vertical positions and that you probably can be bolder than you think. It’s easy to end up with a bunch of desktop computers in front of you and this may feel awkward at first but I can reassure it’s not.

About instruments I agree to apex and others that paired analogues are the best. If you still like to go for a digital system, make sure that you then can display the data in paired analogues so you can catch any anomalies without reading them.

Last. I don’t forget to think about the bridge in the aspect of a social area. Some old t0rawler-pirate might object but if you go for a 3 month cruise/expedition with people you know and like and spend most of that time on the bride, the whole trip will be many times enjoyable with some company. If people are able to join you at the bridge without feeling that are in the way, they will.

Cool project .. good luck

[apex1]

Nice idea Anytec, and to some extend that does function on a modern bridge.

But on most ships (this is not a boat) we have to deal with the wheel in front of the helmsman, making this setup impossible.

The old Trawler pirate spent more years on contemporary bridges than on old fashioned.
And he would agree with your comment, if this was a boat used by family crew, but this is not the case here.
For professional crew it is inacceptable to have guests sitting on the bridge. That is the only place on board, above WL, where crew can be undisturbed by guests, and it has to be so!
If you provide comfortable seating, all social gathering takes place almost exclusively on the bridge while underway. A unbelievable pain in the ass for payed crew.
And I would not provide more than one observer seat on my family operated yacht too! It is just not the place for gathering and communication when at sea. On smaller boats that is a bit different, but on ocean going vessels the bridge is working room, nothing else.

Regards
Richard

[wardd]

no real ships instrument is under 6 inches in diameter nor newer than 80 years old

[Anytec1210]

Maybe I did miss something here about the purpose of this wessel. If you have paying passengers and crew, the bridge is off limits. No doubt.

Got stuck perhps to the words "private expedition yatch" in how this ship was described. Carry paying passengers to photo some wales and icebergs is not an "expedition" to me. That´s charter.
A friend has converted an old 170 ft icebreaker into a non comercial expedition/diving platform. When he is out on an expedition, basically everybody aboard are crew (family and friends) so I agree to what´s been said and don´t think the bridge should accomodate a snack bar or lounge. However if you pursue on a real expedition the bridge will also in a way act as a mission controll center.

[apex1]

Maybe I did miss something here about the purpose of this wessel. If you have paying passengers and crew, the bridge is off limits. No doubt.
Got stuck perhps to the words "private expedition yatch" in how this ship was described. Carry paying passengers to photo some wales and icebergs is not an "expedition" to me. That´s charter.
A friend has converted an old 170 ft icebreaker into a non comercial expedition/diving platform. When he is out on an expedition, basically everybody aboard are crew (family and friends) so I agree to what´s been said and don´t think the bridge should accomodate a snack bar or lounge. However if you pursue on a real expedition the bridge will also in a way act as a mission controll center.

This is a conversion of a 40meter something, Dutch North Sea Trawler.
And no matter paying or not, passengers or owners family should not be on the bridge while under way.

I am talking from own experiece on my yachts of similar and even bigger size. But I was Crew as well, being master of my own vessel.
For occasional guests the bridge was off limits when at sea.
My last yacht did not provide any seating for guests anymore. Just two helmchairs.

Of course on a 20 meter boat, things are much different.

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

On my boat , 20M, the mostly used steering station is on top bridge. The Main Bridge would only be used in bad weather. Therefore I have dual anything right there. In todays world with all the electronics it is possible to make control stations smaller. Half the bridge in both is a sit/l lay down casual area. The half main bridge has a table and a built in chairs right against windshield. In a private yacht why waste a lot of space if you don't need it. Dual use of space.

[apex1]

On my boat , 20M, the mostly used steering station is on top bridge. The Main Bridge would only be used in bad weather. Therefore I have dual anything right there. In todays world with all the electronics it is possible to make control stations smaller. Half the bridge in both is a sit/l lay down casual area. The half main bridge has a table and a built in chairs right against windshield. In a private yacht why waste a lot of space if you don't need it. Dual use of space.

As I said, a 20m boat is a different animal. But that was not the size we are talking here, this is about the real business, ships.

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

Are there any legal requirements on bridge design?

[apex1]

No, not for yachts.

[MikeJohns]

This is probably more your style Richard. A mix of traditional and modern.

Some of the modern bridges lack a good workable layout for two people on the bridge when it's required.

[apex1]

This is probably more your style Richard. A mix of traditional and modern.

Nah, not really Mike.

This is a oldtimer, ok, that has a old fashioned bridge with some electronics added where the space could be found. But good is different. On a new built vessel I would prefer the style and layout (with excemptions) I have posted in #9.
Like this one:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/onboard-electronics-controls/32472d1245062345-bridge-design-feedback-request-spada1.jpg

The monitors should face inwards a bit and the space in front of the wheel should sport only the motor management, tiller and thruster and be horizontal.

Regards
Richard

[MikeJohns]

Ah, Richard, so you are a modernist after all.

Mission control style rather than olde worlde. And the watch has to wear reading glasses all the time, and dozes off in the chair. ;)

[apex1]

Ah, Richard, so you are a modernist after all.

Mission control style rather than olde worlde. And the watch has to wear reading glasses all the time, and dozes off in the chair. ;)

Oh, hmmm, well,

maybe this is the more decent picture of the same layout.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/onboard-electronics-controls/32473d1245062361-bridge-design-feedback-request-saga8.jpg

said the modernist in me............

[MikeJohns]

Ok, that's an entirely different picture :) And I like the master console too.

I missed the wheel in the other shot.

[apex1]

Ok, that's an entirely different picture :) And I like the master console too.

I missed the wheel in the other shot.

There are just a few major flaws in this design:

The engine controls are not paired

The plotter monitor does not belong there

The Radar monitors should be slightly angled towards the helm

The Radar keyboard has to be closer to the helm

The "dashboard" is too steep

But there is a tiller at the helm seat, and the radios are in the right position, thats good.

The second picture shows a sistership, therefore you could not see THIS wheel.:D