New Member

[Stu waring]

Hello everyone,

I posted this message in the open forum and wanted to get it in under education so I am posting part of it again..... I am an instructor at Westlawn and would be happy to answer any questions as time permits and as best as I can in regards to the school. I can tell you that a lot has changed at Westlawn in the past 10 months since ABYC has taken ownership. I encourage all to visit the Westlawn website <www.westlawn.org> and see what is new. With Dave Gerr leading the charge the school is growing rapidly. Dave has a wealth of knowledge and is pouring it out into the school. Current students should be very excited about the immediate future at Westlawn!

[CDBarry]

One issue with Westlawn is that the instructors are also from Westlawn. In other circles this is known as "academic incest", and one sure way to guarantee you won't teach at a given academic institution is to get your degree(s) there, because it tends to restrict the entry of new ideas and to promulgate old errors (remember the children's game of whispering a message from one person to another and seeing how distorted it gets?). How is Westlawn dealing with that?

[John Perry]

Reading some of the messages from students currently at naval architecture college I am surprised that they are being taught to draw with drawing boards, tee-squares and ships curves etc as well as with computers. I have worked in many engineering firms over the years including a couple of firms which have been involved in the design of equipment for yachts and small craft and I can tell you that the computer revolution in engineering drawing was well underway fifteen years ago and today it is for all practical purposes complete. Virtually no one who works in mechanical engineering, shipbuilding or yacht building is now producing engineering drawings other than by computer. Are these students taking a course in the history of technology?

[CDBarry]

There is some merit to having to understand how to fair lines by hand, because there is a relationship between the curve a batten can take and the fairness of a hull, in that both are defined in terms of second derivatives, and the curves beams take under point loadings, but I don't know if NA colleges, as opposed to YD schools, are still using hand drafting. A good background in vector calculus and related mathematics of surfaces accomplishes the same thing. (And you never used a t-square for marine drafting.)

It is interesting to note that auto companies were recruiting NA students for a while because they were good at the mathematics of surface shape.

[Stu waring]

We insist that students learn how to draw and have just passed new policy at Westlawn stating that they have to complete a certain amount of the early part of course by hand. We feel that this will give the students a certian amount of appreciation of how talented some of the great designers really were. Plus, we all know there is nothing like the satisfaction of drawing your first set of lines using traditional methods.
I think that there is a necessary balance of engineer and artist that goes into every good designer. Anyone can learn the math, some may struggle more than others and some may get frustrated to the point of giving up, but you can either draw or you can not. Learning to take what you invision in your mind and put it on paper is a gift, not a simple thing to do and very difficult to teach. Cad is a way around it for some that simply can not or do not want to learn how to use a pencil. But I beleive that in the long run this is more of a handicap than an answer. I know of a very prominant office with a couple of designers that only work in CAD that can not participate in think tank meetings on site because they simpky can not draw!
I believe that there should still be some signifigance placed on the importance manual drawing, sketching and drafting needed to develop preliminary concepts and sketches of a design. Once the design is complete and preliminary drawings are begun there is no question but to use the computer and benefit from all its advantages.

In reagards to Westlawn hiring Westlawn students, I am that. But I am not only that. I think that this is a difficult senario to reply to when there are really only 2 schools in the country that do not make you quite your job to get an education in the industry while still working in it. As I found myself like many of my students interested in yacht design later in life and long past being able to drop everything and spend big $$$ and years in college, one of these two schools was the only option. Was I hired because I took the course? I am sure that was part of it, but also and more importantly because I was a production manager for a prominant builder, owned a boat repair yard and had built boats for years had more to do with it because they wanted to bring practical experience to the program. Having the education was a bonus.

[CDBarry]

I'm glad that you have a broad background, especially in construction.
It should contribute a lot.

I'm not sure that late vocations are always impossible - I know a number of UM grads who went later in life, but I understand what you mean. However, if we look at Landing school, the lead faculty member and members of the board are from other institutions, and this might bring greater breadth to a program. I don't know the full content of the Westlawn course, but I have seen a few things from students that make me wonder a bit, though most of them were conceptual things, use of terms or similar that may not have any real impact on designs. These might not be part of the course, but perhaps you should get someone from completely outside to vet your materials.

However, the big question I think prospective students should ask is how many students enter the course, and how many complete it, and in how much time.

Finally, though I am old enough to have drafted by hand (on linen, and lettered with a Speedball pen), I find that sketching in CAD in 3D is no big problem either, and I've started all my designs in CAD from the first step since R10. It just takes practice, like anything else. It's just a tool.

[Eric Sponberg]

I still use weights, battens, Mylar and pencil for some design development. I find that sometimes my mind is a bit freer in the concept stage with hand tools rather than with the computer. Therefore, I will not give up my hand tools. For final drawings, I produce everything in CAD in 2D. The hull shape and superstructure get produced in 3D, but all drawings go 2D. For NC cutting development and photo-realistic renderings, I hire out to whoever can do it for me.

I also believe that the art of drafting is disappearing. Doing a drawing by hand teaches you drawing organization, proportion, and how to develop the information so that it is easily read. Remember, the 2D drawings are still what goes to the shop floor for construction, and so they have to be well done and easily understood by the builders.

If you can produce a good drawing by hand, you can generally repeat it in CAD. The principles of information control and readability are the same. Which is not to say that you can't teach these principles solely in CAD, but by doing by hand, you can take the time to go over the principles more carefully. You also learn to be efficient. Too much information on a drawing is just as bad as not enough information.

One of the worst faults in most drawings is lettering. Most people don't know how to letter well. The biggest fault is to use all capital letters. All caps is extremely hard to read. You should use normal capitalization as you would find in a book. This makes it easier to read. To make a CAD drawing look much better, too, is to use a font that looks like hand lettering. It adds a lot to a drawing. Finally, one of the neat benefits of CAD drafting is that you have finer control over line width. A really good looking hand drawing has different widths (or boldnesses) of line, usually three or four widths from very fine to quite bold. A good CAD drawing, to my mind, has five different line weights (no need to have more than that, but easier to produce in CAD). A bad CAD drawing has only one line width (usually too thin) so that there is no depth to the drawing, making it look very bland.

Well, them's my thoughts, for what they are worth.

Eric

[betelgeuserdude]

Mr. Sponberg,

Thank you for this and your other posts. I have learned quite a bit from you. I appreciate the fact that you offer so much to inspire and instruct, rather than throwing up roadblocks.

I'm one of those guys who happens to love drafting, perhaps because as a boat builder, I'm still "in touch" with my work. Drawing helps me to better visualize. I like that my final product is more a result of my creativity, organization, and consistancy than just a computer's. Thanks for your points regarding line widths, detail, and lettering.

That said, I am looking forward to becoming familiar with software to simplify some of the more mundane tasks. Same as using a GPS rather than celestial observations for navigation.

When I first started building boats for myself, I really got into the plans which exhibited detail. When I started building professionally, I saw only builder's plans, with only the barest of detail. They got the information across very efficiently (mostly leaving everything to the builder), but I would never hang them on the wall. I guess I loved the detailed plans, because they were so much fun to constantly discover; always some new detail to run across and explore. They made me feel that the designer really loved his craft, and respected those who viewed his work.

Still, while everyone is producing computer models as a means of presentation, I still prefer the old drawings of the masters.

Thanks again.

DC

[Stu waring]

I'm glad that you have a broad background, especially in construction.
It should contribute a lot.

I'm not sure that late vocations are always impossible - I know a number of UM grads who went later in life, but I understand what you mean. However, if we look at Landing school, the lead faculty member and members of the board are from other institutions, and this might bring greater breadth to a program. I don't know the full content of the Westlawn course, but I have seen a few things from students that make me wonder a bit, though most of them were conceptual things, use of terms or similar that may not have any real impact on designs. These might not be part of the course, but perhaps you should get someone from completely outside to vet your materials.

However, the big question I think prospective students should ask is how many students enter the course, and how many complete it, and in how much time.

Finally, though I am old enough to have drafted by hand (on linen, and lettered with a Speedball pen), I find that sketching in CAD in 3D is no big problem either, and I've started all my designs in CAD from the first step since R10. It just takes practice, like anything else. It's just a tool.



I guess I will answer the questions about the course first. We are averaging between 15 – 20 new students a month. As most know the course is comprised of 4 modules broken down into 38 lessons. Each module requires between 1000 and 1500 hours of work to complete most of which is drawing. As most of our students are fully employed in various occupations this is all done on evenings and weekends averaging about 15 – 20 hours a weeks. Of course life throws all kinds of reasons to procrastinate (and we have heard them all) but on average most students finish this within the 12 month contract they sign at the beginning of each module. If they require more time to complete they may request a 6 month or 12 month extension and we give out lots of these.
Ask any graduate, it is not an easy course, it is very challenging and at times can seem never ending. And unlike what I have read in other threads you have to draw and draw and draw. This usually weeds out who is serious and who is not.
Does everyone finish, not even close. But we do have a lot of graduates, you bet! You want names, here is a few that you might recognize:

Tom Fexas Independent Designer
Bruce King Independent Designer
Jack Hargrave Independent Designer, Designer for Hatteras,
Bertram, others
Gary Mull Independent Designer
Bill Cook Independent Designer
Bill Shaw Independent Designer
Charlie Morgan Independent Designer, President Morgan Yachts
Rod Johnston Independent Designer, Founder & Designer J/Boats
Dave Gerr Independent Designer
David P. Martin Independent Designer, Designer for Ocean Yachts,
Egg Harbor, Pacemaker, others
Rodger Martin Independent Designer
Luc St. Onge Designer, Doral
Ted Brewer Independent Designer
Bob Walstrom Independent Designer
Robert Harris Independent Designer
Dudley Dix Independent Designer
Stephen Pollard Independent Designer
David Beach Independent Designer, Architect for NMMA
Jay Coyle Independent Designer,
Technical Editor for Yachting Magazine
Doug Zurn Independent Designer
Dick McBride Independent Designer
Dave Napier Designer, Bertram
Fred Geiger Designer, Trumpy
Robert F. MacNeill Independent Designer, Marine Consultant,
former President Carver Boats
Walter G. Hahn Designer, American Custom Yachts
Richard C. Lazzara Designer, Lazzara Yachts, Gulfstar
Eric Ogden Independent Designer, Designer "French Kiss"
French 12M America's Cup Contender
Eric Henseval Independent Designer, Architect for Van
Peteghem-Lauriot-Prevost (MVP-VLP), Arradon Team
D.A.J. (Dan) Parker Designer & President, Monaro Marine Ltd.
George Menezes Designer, Sabre
James Loeschen Designer, Jack Hargrave and Hargrave Custom Yachts
J. Henry Martinak Independent Designer, Designer Café Yachts
Thurber Whitey Project Manager, Rybovich Spencer
Peter Eichenberger USCG Officer, Boating Safety
Lysle Gray USCG Civilian Supervisor, Boating Safety
Nicholas DeMateo Designer, Tom Fexas Yacht Design
Norman Nudleman Independent Designer, Former President Westlawn
David Fox Designer, US Navy Combatant Craft

This is just a partial list that we have been working on in the last few months. So if anyone reads this thread and is a graduate of Westlawn and does not see there name on the list please contact the school. We would love to hear from you. This is not a new question, we get all the time, but it is very hard to keep track of students once they are gone unless they contact us.
How many graduate a year, well it depends on the year, but on average I would say somewhere between 10 -15. Some may have done it inside the four years where as most have been working on it for a long time. But once they get in past the second year they almost all finish at some point.

In response to hiring Westlawn students. Like I said before, sure we do. Do we think it is a set back. No. We have put out some of the best designers in the industry so we must be doing something right. Do they all think the same way? you must be kidding! Have they all got their own way of doing things? Absolutely, what two designers are alike? The director of the school is a grad from several years ago. But he has been working as an independent designer for years and knows so much more than what the school taught him from practical experience in the industry. Talk about bringing in top quality. Dave Gerr has been published in more magazines than I know of and has written three of the most highly regarded books on yacht design out there. The school faculty is very lucky to have him, as are the students who at any time can call or email and speak with him directly.
What person on that list would you not want? I am not sure that your question has merit. I know what you are saying, but there are only four yacht design schools out there that teach it. A guy from a NA program like Webb would probably be great and we have grads that have done both but as clearly stated in other threads are more engineering oriented than design. They primarily study ships not small craft (that is a stereotype but you all know what I am trying to say). Westlawn is a 70+ year old design school focusing on small craft design, we teach yacht design, so likely if you work here at some point in your life you have taken our program, if not you will!

[8knots]

Hmmmmm. Stu, Thanks for the reply with Grad numbers. This will help a lot of people who have asked that very question here many times before. A word of caution tho....Your reply to Mr Barry seems like a "TAKE THAT" rather than an answer to a honest question/suggestion. You did answer the question but with a bit of a spin. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, But it seems a little off from what I would expect from a reresenative of Westlawn or any other business for that matter.

I am Glad you have Gerr on your staff! In your defense If had a choice in who to hire, I would hire my own. Most any biz or organazation is based on a particular philosophy (Is there a spell check on this thing) A product of your own school (Gerr) will by nature support that. Not sure about design stagnation. I think Yacht design is a bit of an art form based on mathmatical rules and constants. Everything else is a compromised opinion of the designer (meaning the visual part of the design) It is up to the student/designer to "Make his stand out" so long as it conforms to the rules.
Westlawn is in the biz of teaching "Rules"

On that note I have a question....I have considered taking your course for some time. But of course I have a few of the excuses you have heard before ;) I am a power guy at heart so working the sail design portion would drive me nuts! It is hard for anybody to really apply themselves to a subject they have little interest in. Do you use a "control" sailboat design for the course? Meaning all students draw the same basic thing? I can see the reason behind this being easy grading! If I could draw my own for the course it would be more interesting to me!

For the record....I agree with Mr Sponberg. I can get my ideas down faster wiggling a pencil and stick around. My original sketches are so much "warmer" than after I scan and trace them into the PC.
With that said I just aquired a 60" drafting table with Mutoh track mounted drafting machine for $150 LOOKOUT....in 30-40 years I'll be after Gerr's Job.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Have a great day Gent's 8Knots

[Stu waring]

By no means was my response any type of personal attack on Mr. Berry and please do not read it that way. I was simply trying to answer the questions given and back them up with actual data. In the miles of thread about Westlawn there are some real misconceptions. What I was attempting to present was real names and numbers not just myth. I figured that it would stir things up a bit… but in no way was I trying to be offensive. To all and especially CDBarry my apologies if it read that way.

In regards to your questions about sail boat design in the course… The curriculum is set up in such away that there is a balance between both sail and power. In some aspects we control the designs but there are never any two lessons submitted that look the same. An example early in the program might be to design a 35’ sailboat that can sleep four and is capable of weekend cruising, that is all the parameters we set. As you work further into the course there are more requirements similar to what an owner might request when commissioning a design. We do not control the creative side such as stating that it be modern or classic, that is totally up to the student. The variety we see is unbelievable! You do not draw just one design either. In the 2nd module five sets of hull lines covering sail, power and multihulls between 20’ and 50’ are done along with the exterior profile, arrangement, interior profiles, sections and sailplan and deck plan where applicable. It is a lot of drawing! You would definitely find it interesting and challenging.

Hey I am a sailor and drawing sailboats is so much easier for me than powerboats, so I can totally appreciate how hard it is to design what you have no feeling for. But yacht design covers everything from dinghy’s to multihulls, monohull sail boats to 100 mega yachts. So students tough it out and draw everything. Most have no idea where they may land in the industry so being diversified in both aspects is fairly well accepted.

8knots - Hope that helps.

[Willallison]

8 - like you I'm basically a powerboat guy and I must admit that I had reservations about having to draw a whole lot of blow-boats, but I have to say that I've enjoyed drawing them (almost) as much as the real ones :D :D A pleasant surprise.....
One thing I can say, is that whilst these courses all seem rather a lot of work for us amateurs, the longer you put off starting, the longer it will be 'till you finish - stop making excuses and enroll!!! :p

[CDBarry]

The real questions I had in mind were what is the ratio of graduates, working or not, who complete the course, and how many people typically complete it each year.

[8knots]

Stu, Thanks for the reply. The answers are what I was looking for! I can live with that.

Will, Tis funny you replyed...I was going to PM you about module 2 knowing you just finished it. As far as enrolling I just received the new packet from W
on saturday the copy I had was old as dirt. I am talking to my CFO (wife) about the $ situation. I have a fair amount of consumer debt I am chipping away at. 2K at A time is childs play tho in the grand scheme of things. I hope to pull this off. I need to get my money back out of my foundry venture
this will give me a little more room to work. Thats the nuts and bolts of it!
:p keep em sharp 8

[Stu waring]

CD - I wish that I had that information for you and everyone wondering that. I would like to see those stats too. But as I said earlier it is extremely difficult if not impossible to keep track of our graduates once they finish if they do not stay in contact with us. So honestly I can not answer that question with fact.
What I can tell you is that based on numbers from the last several years Westlawn enrolls around 200+/- students into one of the 4 modules annually and graduates approximately 10+/- students per year from Module 4. Where they go and what they do after that like I said is hard to track. We are trying to generate that list now, but with 40% of our student body outside the US it is difficult. We do have a rapidly growing list of design firms and companies that currently employ our students and graduates. I will be happy to post this if anyone would like to see it.

8 knots and others. If $$$ is a concern and it always should be… Westlawn offers a monthly payment plan. You can enroll in the program for as little as $450USD and then take advantage of a $150USD monthly payment plan for 10 months. This can be done via posted check, MC or Visa. A lot of students like this option vs. dropping 2K down at the beginning. (8 - your CFO might go for that! :D) We also work with many companies that offer their employees educational training reimbursement. Check with your employer to see if this applies to you, you might be able to study for free! What ever way it is, once you enroll we ship you mod 1 and you go to work.

[Stu waring]

I was not satisfied with the answer to graduation rates that I gave yesterday so I did some more digging this morning. I found that our graduation rates fluctuate, and are very different for distance-learning institutions than residence schools. As I have mentioned before, the Westlawn diploma course is comprised of 38 lessons divided into 4 modules with each module taking 1 year to complete. Based on a the most recent analysis, graduation rates from Module 4 are about 75%, other modules vary, but the average is around 50%. Graduation rates for several of Westlawn's continuing education courses are close to 100%. Westlawn has numerous successful graduates but like other schools, many students often get full-time work in the industry long before they ever finish the program.

I received a private request asking that I post the companies that have and do employ Westlawn graduates and students. This list includes designers, organizations & professional associations. (these are in addition to the to the other companies listed in my previous reply) This is only the beginning of our attempt to track the whereabouts of our students and is far from complete. As I have asked before, if you are a past or present student or graduate of Westlawn and are or were working in the industry please drop us an email letting us know what you have been up to so we can add to this rapidly growing list. It will help and encourge those that struggle with wondering where their Westlawn education could take them.

Sparkman & Stephens
Farr Yacht Design Ltd.
Robert Perry
C.W. ©¯Chuck©˜ Paine
Oracle BMW Racing's America's Cup Team
Tripp Design, Naval Architecture
John W. Gilbert Associates, Inc.
MacLear & Harris, Inc.
Francis & Francis
Benford Design Group
Van Peteghem-Lauriot-Prevost (MVP-VLP)
Arradon Team
Glade Johnson
Paolo D. Smith
Seltzer Design
Michael Porter
United States Coast Guard
United States Navy
SP Systems
American Bureau of Shipping
American Boat & Yacht Council
National Marine Manufacturers Association
Boating Magazine
Sail Magazine
Yachting Magazine
Offshore Magazine

The following is a list of Boat Builders who have employed Westlawn alumni and students:

American Custom Yachts
Bayliner
Bertram
Broward
Burger Boat Co.
Café Yachts
Cape Dory Yachts
Carver Boats
Cheoy Lee Shipyard
Chris Craft
Cobalt Boats
Delta Marine
Doral
Egg Harbor
Fountain
Four Winns
General Dynamics/Electric Boat
Grand Banks
Gulfstar
Hargrave Custom Yachts
Hatteras Yachts
Island Packet Yachts
J/Boats
Jongert
Lazzara Yachts
Luhrs/Mainship
Monaro Marine Ltd.
Nordhaven
Ocean Yachts
OMC
P.A.E. Boatbuilders
Pacemaker
Palmer Johnson
Pearson Yachts
Rybovich Spencer
Sabre Yachts
Santa Cruz Yachts
Seaswirl
Trumpy
Viking Yachts
Westport Shipyards

Please remember that this list is far from complete. As we have only begun to create it in the past few months, it will be interesting to see where it is in a year from now after we get more feed back. I hope this encourages all that are studying yacht design in whatever form and institution that there are positions in the industry if you are serious and have some talent.:)

[gonzo]

I like to design by hand. The restrictions of a CAD programs drive me batty. I cut my splines and they curve whichever way I want. Also, the ability to draw has other advantages. For example, capability of making a design on a bar napkin and explain a construction detail or feature. Another plus, is that a computer screen resolution is poor compared to a pencil line. A sheerline may look OK on the screen, but at full size has lumps or straight sections that are ugly. The displacement and other calculations are better left to the computer. I can't think of anything more tedious than recalculating because and engine has to be moved aft.

[Guest]

Stu,

I am a student at Westlawn just wrapping up Module one. I am glad to see some of the changes that are happening. Can you talk some about possible updates to the texts as well as maybe a side curriculm for CAD (given your new policies).

[Stu waring]

Guest

( I have also posted this question and reply under the Westlawn Questions thread.)

Sorry to not get back to you right away. I was in meetings all last week in Miami. We were having our 50th Anniversary Annual General Meeting for ABYC and were privileged to have the commandant of the US Coast Guard, Admiral Collins as our key note speaker. He is quite a dynamic speaker!

In regards to your question, as you are currently a student, you have already seen the first student guide we put out last June. This was 17 page handout along with a dozen or so drawings that lightly covered some of the pressing topics that the new administration felt the course was weak on or did not cover at all. Over the several months since then we have been hard at work on preparing the next edition that will be available to students in April of this year. The new student guide is huge. It is well over 100 pages and growing daily. We are having a difficult time knowing when to say enough for now. The new guide is going to include the contents of the old guide as well as cover some major topics such as:

Advanced Composites
Weights and trim analysis
Improved rigging calculations
Updated Aluminum construction
Detailed System Engineering
CAD applications
As well as several reference papers and many drawings and much more. As soon as we get this edition out we will start comprising new information for the 3rd edition.

We also have several major projects on the go. We have new course material on Aluminum Construction that will be replacing our current aluminum text due out in the next 6 – 9 months. This is a brand new book that has been underway for well over a year now.

We have brand new course material that will be introduced to the YD program on Engineering Fundamentals. We hope to incorporated this into the program sometime in the next 12 – 16 months.

Dave Gerr is currently creating new comprehensive course material on propellers, which should be quite informative as he will be using his Propeller Hand Book as the basis of the new material. This is about 12 months out as well.

We are also underway on an addition to the sailboat sections, lesson 18 & 19. In the next 9 - 12 months we will be introducing curriculum on deck hardware and layouts for cruising and racing boats from dinghy’s to the 70’ range with the assistance of Harken, Ronstan and Lewmar and others…

And last and most importantly we are upgrading our CAD program. We have several irons in the fire at the moment but nothing is confirmed yet that I can relay. The student guide will be packed full of useful information in regards to manual drawing and CAD. That is our immediate response. Our course material is so out of date that it is sad it is still in there. Our desire is to replace it with quality current material quickly, hopefully within the next 6 months.

So we have lots on the go…along with catching some of the typos and the odd mistake in the current curriculum and updating some of the existing drawings, we are busy. We have been in touch with several prominent design firms that are putting together drawing packages of boats designed and built with in the last 5 years that we will be able to send out to students to use as examples and reference material. But it all takes time. If you are in module 1 you will likely see all of the changes I have mention and more long before you finish the program.

So what should you do in the mean time while you are waiting for the CAD update? Well if you are a beginner, I would suggest that you check out your local community college. Almost all of them offer courses in introductory AutoCAD. This is a great place to learn the basics and benefit from a teacher who can show you some of the tricks and short cuts. If night school is not an option, then maybe an online tutorial program or books. AutoCad is too complex a program to learn properly just hacking your way through it. The manuals from AutoDesk are great if you know what you are doing but not as helpful as they could be and a little intimidating for the beginner. Two good books that we recommend to our students are:

The Mastering AutoCAD series by George Omura

and

The AutoCAD No Experience Required series by David Frey

Both are available for several different releases of AutoCAD and available from Amazon.com and BarnesandNobles.com. I am sure that there are many other books that others might find better, however these seem to do the trick and are fairly simple to navigate.

Hope that answers your questions…

[CDBarry]

You are certainly right about going to a local community college for AutoCAD training. At least the first bit really requires a live instructor, literally holding your hand (or mouse). Once you are past that, then you can pick it up on line as well. The AutoCAD User's Group, International has free on line courses, www.augi.com

[dvgale]

I am an instructor at Westlawn and would be happy to answer any questions as time permits ... With Dave Gerr leading the charge the school is growing rapidly.


Although I've been in naval architecture nearly 18 years (plus endured a 17-month layoff Nov. '01 - April '03!), I'm new here at boatdesign.net. While I'm currently enrolled at the MacNaughton YDS, I'm keeping up to date on Westlawn, especially in light of 1) its operation under the auspices of ABYC 2) and under Mr. Gerr's guidance, 3) with NMMA adopting ABYC guidelines in their certification program, and 4) the potential (as I understand it) for professionals and SNAME members to take an accelerated course option.

I've just read today in the Boating Industry Online (www.boating-industry.com) E-newsletter that Westlawn's enrollment has increased 60% since the ABYC acquisition, and the school seems to regularly make waves in the boating industry press.

I'm sure to have many questions as time passes - I've already posted a question regarding yacht engine removals on the Design board - and I hope I'll be able to provide guidance useful to others as well.

Meanwhile, I am earnestly seeking to break free from commercial/military-type work (especially the urban/industrial environment of Manhattan! :( ) and pursue work with yachts and pleasure craft, perhaps in conjunction with other types of commercial boats. While this seems to be the fastest-growing segment of the marine industry today, I've had little contact with recruiters in this area and one interview last September. Despite my years of experience, design firms seem to either want a design portfolio or, in the case of production builders, manufacturing as well as design experience.

I am hoping to acquire a work portfolio through my activity with YDS :) , although an unbearable commute to and from Manhattan (2 hours each way :mad: :mad: ) has made this nearly impossible. I do spend some of the time reading design reports, naval architecture studies of planing hulls, etc., not to mention Dave Gerr's Propeller Handbook! (This is especially interesting, as I've also begun working with NavCad.) Meawhile, I look forward to future contact with you and among other boatdesign.net members. As time and fortune permits I may yet consider Westlawn enrollment as an alternative.

[macknut]

I have been considering on enrolling in Westlawn. However it's been I while since I have to study much. I was thinking of taking the lite program first as a warm up for the larger program. I was wondering what your thoughts on this were. :?:

[CDBarry]

Westport has jobs in Washington state in yacht construction and design, though they want degreed NAs. Try Bryan Spencer too.

[Stu waring]

I have been considering on enrolling in Westlawn. However it's been I while since I have to study much. I was thinking of taking the lite program first as a warm up for the larger program. I was wondering what your thoughts on this were. :?:
YACHT DESIGN LITE will give you a basic knowledge of design principles, hydrodynamics and manufacturing technologies in FRP. It was designed initially for the marine industry corporate executives that wanted a refresher, the broker who really has no design background at all and need some and yacht surveyors looking for cross training. The YDL course can lay the ground work for improved job performance, promotion opportunities and expand knowledge of job related disciplines. But it is not for the marine work force only, it is also set up for the plain curious who are not sure if they want to spend the time and money in the diploma course but want to see what yacht design is all about. In other words, it is a small commitment meaning low risk.

When we designed the YDL course, we selected 8 lessons from the 38 lessons that create the YD diploma course. They cover hydrostatics, resistance, stability, hull lines, interior design and FRP construction. FRP was chosen as it is primary material being used in the industry today. The course will get your feet wet without a doubt. If you find when you complete the program that you want to continue and move into the more comprehensive YD course, the credits are completely transferable. The cost of the YDL program is the same as one module in the YD course, $1950USD for domestic and $2150USD for international students.

We have many students currently in the program that seem to be progressing along nicely. It takes about 300 hours to complete and is very doable in the one year time frame.

Macknut, YDL is exactly what you are looking for.

[CDBarry]

To address the list of Westlawn people above; many on this list also have other, perhaps more suitable, credentials.

For example, Gary Mull was also a UCB NAME grad, and in all the years I knew him, he always identified himself as such. I don't recall him ever mentioning that he took the Westlawn course, as a matter of fact.

Again, the problem with this list and all of the others is that people interested in yachts and subsequently successful may well take all or part of the Westlawn course, but that doesn't mean it is why they were successful. Most yacht designers also eat bananas, but eating bananas won't make you a yacht designer. You are asking people to lay out a lot of $$ and time, and this requires a high level of proof that your method works. Something like 90% of Webb entrants graduate, and 100% either get jobs or go on to graduate school and then get jobs (many in yacht design - and Webb is free). Every single one of my classmates in UCB is still in the industry (including some yacht designers, even some on America's Cup programs).

The central question is not if a few make it, but what percentage make it.

[Eastlawn]

I would like to know exactly who all the Westlawn tutors are, exactly what are their qualifications and exactly when and where did they obtain their qualifications. Additionally, I would like to know how long they have been involved as tutors for this type of naval architecture educational program.

A precise answer Ladies and Gentlemen please.

[johnjt]

The central question is not if a few make it, but what percentage make it.[/QUOTE]

CDBarry,
Well written, sincerely. I've been kicking around the idea of taking the Westlawn courses for a handful of years. Early on, I thought that the diploma granted would be all I would need to obtain a position in yacht design. Of course, I now realize that the diploma, when taken in conjunction with another degree, preferably engineering or marine technology, can be a very attractive pair. I'm not expecting to get a call from Oracle/BMW or the Kiwi's after completing the program, but that's not my goal either. I think for myself, along with many out here, the option of attending a brick-and-mortar university such as Michigan or Webb or any of the others has passed by many years ago. Participating in the Westlawn course is a couple of things to me (and maybe to others)...First, it is a way to fulfill a desire to learn more about boats and design. Second, it is knowledge gained that cannot be taken away--therefore not a waste of money by any stretch of the imagination. Third, it is the possibility that if I'm disciplined, motivated and good enough, I could possibly make a living doing something I would really love. Now of course I could go ahead and get a Business degree and plod along in my company and get small raises and keep putting food on the table and come home unfulfilled. OR, I can keep doing what I'm doing career-wise (which already puts food on the table), obtain a degree and diploma in something that I have a genuine interest in and feel passionate about and POSSIBLY get a position with a company that I'd feel energized in the morning about.
I guess I should try and focus what I'm saying...I don't think your post was an attack on any of us considering or enrolling or enrolled in Westlawn. I simply want to put some encouragement and positive spin on what the diploma gets people. A dose of realism is a VERY healthy thing, and as I said off the bat, your post was really well-written and thought out. However, people should also take an assessment of what their GOALS are and act appropriately. There is no magic pill that will get us everything we want. But there are things out there that can make us happy and maybe even make us money (VERY important to know that the two don't go together, as I'm sure current yacht designers could tell us ;-) ) I don't really care about the percentage of people that begin-but-don't-finish the program. If it were that easy, it probably wouldn't be worth it. Buyer should always beware, of course. But I think those of us in search of something fulfilling and challenging take great value in what Westlawn is offering us.
Just my two cents. I didn't want Stu to be the only one defending the Westlawn choice!
Thanks to all. Hope this wasn't too long-winded (though I am a sailor--I can't help it!)
Sincerely,
johnjt

[Stu waring]

I would like to know exactly who all the Westlawn tutors are, exactly what are their qualifications and exactly when and where did they obtain their qualifications. Additionally, I would like to know how long they have been involved as tutors for this type of naval architecture educational program.

A precise answer Ladies and Gentlemen please.
There are short bio's about the faculty and staff, advisors and board of directors on the Westlawn website that can answer these questions specifically. If further information is sought, please feel free to contact the school either by phone or email and we will be happy to put you directly in touch with the person(s) with whom you would like to speak.

[Eastlawn]

Mr Waring, Given the copious details you have already supplied regarding Westlawn and your earnest desire to publicise the Westlawn program, I would have thought that supplying the precise details I requested was well within your capabilities and interests. I am somewhat taken aback at your apparent reticence to supply the precise details I requested to this forum.

I repeat, and would be most grateful for a straightforward answer - as would others who are considering spending thousands of dollars on your program :

I would like to know exactly who all the Westlawn tutors are, exactly what are their qualifications and exactly when and where did they obtain their qualifications. Additionally, I would like to know how long they have been involved as tutors for this type of naval architecture educational program.

A precise answer would be appreciated, Mr Waring please.

[Stu waring]

CDBarry, I would like to offer an invitation to you to come and visit ABYC/Westlawn here in Annapolis. From your profile I see that you are also located here in the state of Maryland. If the distance is not too great I would be very please to show you through our facility. I would also like to offer you our course material to review. I would be very interested in your comments and suggestions on our texts and how they could be improved. I am sure the forum members and readers would enjoy a report on your visit as well.

This invitation is open to anyone with questions about the context of our course material. Obviously distance will hamper most but I am always available by phone for questions, comments or discussion.

I would also like to offer use of our extensive library to students, members and the boating public. Appointments are required and books can not be removed but the library is huge. I would even be bold enough to say one of the largest boating libraries in the area and is often used by the USCG for research.

[Willallison]

Mr Waring, Given the copious details you have already supplied regarding Westlawn and your earnest desire to publicise the Westlawn program, I would have thought that supplying the precise details I requested was well within your capabilities and interests. I am somewhat taken aback at your apparent reticence to supply the precise details I requested to this forum.

I repeat, and would be most grateful for a straightforward answer - as would others who are considering spending thousands of dollars on your program :

I would like to know exactly who all the Westlawn tutors are, exactly what are their qualifications and exactly when and where did they obtain their qualifications. Additionally, I would like to know how long they have been involved as tutors for this type of naval architecture educational program.

A precise answer would be appreciated, Mr Waring please.


Eastlawn (clever if somewhat contrived name by the way :p ), why not simply visit the Westlawn web site as Stu Waring suggests - all the info you requested is there in black & white. If you find that to be too much of an effort, then I fear that the work required to complete a distance-ed course will be well beyond your reach.

Stu Waring - I imagine that for most, a visit to Westlawn would be inspirational (I plan on coming to pick up my diploma in person when I qualify :D ). Sadly, CDBarry in spite of his protestations to the contrary, obviously has an axe to grind with Westlawn. I've met many who feel that the only qualifications worth having are those they hold themselves. It's a narrow way of thinking, that I fear will never be swayed - I won't hold my breath waiting for his "report on what he found".....

[Eastlawn]

Willallison - It quite simply is NOT there which is PRECISELY why I am requesting it.

[CDBarry]

My first concern is not a question of the quality of Westlawn, but mainly the idea that there are very few jobs in the rec boat field regardless of what your qualifications are. Julliard may be the best school of music in the world, but they don't tell any of their students that they will make big money in the exciting world of classical music.

Mr. Waring is talking about 36 students finishing his course recently. There were maybe six openings for designers, total, advertised in the whole US in PBB, BI, and STI last year, and this is typical. Usually there is only one opening advertised in PBB every other issue (bi-monthly). Landing School also drops 16 or so on the market every year, plus folks from the universities. We have posts asking for anyone who is actually making a living in the rec boat industry, and have got maybe two at best. Of course you can always go out on your own, and compete for the fifty or so custom designed yachts done each year in the US, or you can sell plans in competition with people that spend a fortune advertising and have a lock on the market.

Next, Westlawn has spent decades claiming that a university education is only good for "calculating boiler scale" (an exact quote from their sales literature) and has said that university grads can't design boats. This is clearly wrong, and though it is sincerely meant, it stems from the fact that no Westlawn people have any experience in a university program (another problem). I see it as a tragedy for someone who has an opportunity for a university education (and more do than think they do) passing it up, especially because someone with a university education can get a job designing "boats" and make a decent living, though they may be ferry boats, tug boats, crew boats, resupply boats, jack up boats, fish boats, fast attack boats, rescue boats, pilot boats, patrol boats ... instead of yachts.

Westlawn probably means well, and they may even be right, but so far, they really haven't justified their statements that it is worth $8K+ and two or more years. I have no problem with Westlawn being offered as a hobby, or even an adjunct to other marine trades, but that is not how they advertise.

Over the years, I have had to tell too many eager people with Westlawn certificates, that whatever shipyard or design firm I was with at the time had no use for them, and had been the 50th or 100th turn down to just ignore this.

[johnjt]

CDBarry,
I just want to briefly reply to your post. These are my opinions, for whatever they're worth...
First, after reviewing the Westlawn catalog for the ump-teenth time in recent weeks, I think that Westlawn has done an excellent job in representing what they offer and what a graduate can expect to acheive. Of course they say that the degree holds worth--they've got to and I'm sure it does! But I don't think that they make outrageous claims or unfair promises. They may have in the past, I do not know. Prospective students should be looking at the current material anyway.
Second, I do have to take issue with your numbers game of open positions vs graduates. Yacht design, though it is a specialized field, is certainly not the only industry that turns out more graduates than it has positions. My best friend is just going to be graduating law school from a quality university this May. He's spent more than $80,000 on his J.D. alone. He can't get a job (in law) and he's not the only one. Of course the university didn't guarantee him a job when he was finished, but he took the risk anyway. He may eventually get a job in law. He may not. How many people actually work in the field in which they graduated? In my company, (and I have no actual numbers on this) but it is QUITE low. Such is the nature of the working world, I think. But waiting until a position opens to start getting the credentials that will help you land the job is obviously too late.
In closing, I want to thank you again for this dialogue. I hope that it helps anyone that is considering the idea of attending Westlawn. Their decision should depend on informed information gathering, an assessment of what goal s/he wants to acheive and if they think that a Westlawn diploma can help them.

Fair winds and calm seas (heck, I'd settle for sun and temps over 32 degrees!),
johnjt

[Willallison]

Eastlawn - this appears to tell most of what you ask.. http://www.westlawn.org/who/faculty.shtml .. if not, then I've misunderstood the question...

CDBarry - a quick skip through the material W/lawn sent me prior to my enrollment, and a further flick thru the info on their website, and I can find nothing that 'guarantees graduates a job' - nor for that matter anything about uni degrees ony being good for calculating boiler scale.
Anyone intelligent enough to complete a course such as this is going to realise that there are a limited number of jobs in the sector - as there is in any sector, as johnjt suggests. I am intrigued at the suggestion that there are only about 50 custom yachts commisioned each year in the US. Here in Hobart (population 300,000) I can think of at least 5 custom boats being professionally built at the moment - and any number of amateur built boats. Like any business, yacht design is about supply & demand - surely if the number of design commissions was really this limited, then there would be far fewer practicing designers. I'm not disputing your numbers - I have no evidence to the contrary - but where does this information come from?

[CDBarry]

Just on a different point, your attorney friend should be aware that the armed forces have special programs for law school graduates that may include payment of student loans and assignment at an advanced rank (typically O3). This might be an interesting way to start out a career. One of my friends did just that and had about ten years in the Army, served in San Francisco and NATO HQ in Europe and left as a LT COL.

This might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is worth looking into.

[CDBarry]

Both Australia and the UK are far better markets for custom design than the US. I have no idea why, or if it really is true, but it seems to be.

As regards US data, Transamerica lending publishes stats each year.

[Stu waring]

I wanted to let any Westlawn students that frequent this forum know that the new and much improved student forum on the Westlawn site is finally active. Most students should have received material in the mail by now on how to log in. If you have not, please contact me and I will email you instructions on how to do this the first time. This forum is for students and alumni of Westlawn only.

For those of you who are not students and have questions about the school, I still check this site weekly for questions. You can ask them publicly in the forum or as most do, you can send them directly to me.

Thanks

[poetprince]

wow
what a thread
i was ready to respond at about #11
and i'm glad i read through
especially johnjt's remarks
which reflect my own feelings
especially in regards to learning for the sake of learning
i too have muddled over westlawn's courses for a number of years
i could have easily finished it by now
but life took me elsewhere
i'm a hands-on guy
and decided to become a traditional wooden boatbuilder
i think the most money i ever made was about 12 bucks an hour
which caused me to take on many other strange forms of employment
for i simply could not survive on so little
but my love of boats and the sea has never diminished
i have a degree in history
not because of the money it would make for me
but because i had no interest in becoming a lawyer
much to the chagrin of my family
some jobs i have taken have made me some large sums at various times
others had me sweeping floors in boatbuilding shops
i took the cash and travelled freely
searching for out of the way places
and volunteering with boatbuilders of every culture imaginable
in languages i never spoke
and with folks who neither spoke nor understood my own
it has been highly rewarding
and the education i received cannot be bought or sold
westlawn can give me something that is elusive to so many people
that other educational institutions simply cannot
westlawn can give me freedom
that is what i live for
learning for the love of learning
perhaps freedom means a job in the military for some
for me it does not
i can read a lines drawing or a blueprint
and put together a boat or a house
quicker than most people can pay their credit cards
but i've never learned to draw well
and that is something on my list of life's accomplishments
that i promised myself i would fulfill
i think i am ready this year
to make such a commitment
and that in itself
makes me very happy
indeed

~poetprince

[alravi]

hai
i have completed bachelor of eng in naval arcgitecture. i want to know any courses or training for sghipdesigning is there?

[CDBarry]

Go out and work for a while, then you will be able to figure out which direction to go, and what you like.

[TuckSail]

I have been working in the Commercial/Government design field for 3 years now. I know I want to go into recreational yacht design. I am interested in getting my hands dirty and learning how a boat yard operates, and gaining any experience I can. I am located in New York. Does anyone have any ideas where I can start looking, or what I should be looking for. (By the way I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and I am a Westlawn Student, I also have a Coast Guard Captains (25 gross tons) License and I worked at a marina for 6 years)

[CDBarry]

Just start reading the professional literature (through SNAME, CSYS, etc.) attend IBEX, and get your name in with the recruiters. Maybe you can find amechanical position with a yacht builder and work over.

You will probably have to substantially augment your Westlawn stuff by self-study. Westlawn is mainly intended for people who have little technical background, and you can pick up a lot from better sources because you already know more about the fundamentals of structures, hydrodynamics, systems etc. than they can teach their students.

[vinceduf]

Hello chaps,
one thing which could interest people, is that as a YDI graduate (1988) it took me 8 years to complete the home study diploma program (which was equivalent to Westlawn as far as I have seen), 15 % of the student were completing the course.

for your stats:
It took me 3600 hours to complete Lessons 1 to 19 and 1600 hours to draw the three boats for the final diploma, knowing that I was working part of my time in Yacht design offices of people such as Martin FRANCIS, Jacques FAUROUX, Luc BOUVET/Olivier PETIT.

I was quite exhausted at the end, when I have been sending my last project for final examination :) but it was worth the time and money at the end!

[yago]

Hi all - and I am also considering signing up ;-)

Some time ago I decided to design my own boat and have since started building it. You may check it out at
http://www.justmueller.com/boats/

It was not my first project, having already build and sailed several steel yachts many years ago in France. But this time it was my own design, and, having spend some time with developing share- and freeware, I thought it might be a cute gesture to publish my work as "open source" so to say, for anybody who might want it. Plans, drawings and a big building manual are free for download at the website and updated as the work progresses.

Then a funny thing happened: people actually started to find the site and to download and there are several project in the planning for other boats to be build to my plans. Suddenly I found myself being responsible for other peoples dreams, for their personal security, not to talk about the cash they will invest. even with all warnigns about my amateur status, and insisting on their obligation that they should use their own head and validate and verify - simply the fact that my stuff is free is not an excuse for not delivering something as professional as I can. It's a trap.

After I became aware of that, I had to change my approach and try to learn as fast and as much as possible. The web is a big help, and there are some very good books out there, and having lived the life of a semi-professional skipper on all sorts of boats for near 20 years sure helps to prevent me from the worst. But still... my night are getting very short already. So if I sing up with Westlawn, I would just manage to finish when it's time to stop working for good ;-)

Also, the more I read and the more I played around with different variations, the more boats I had in my head that I would like to spend more time on, and maybe find somebody interested in them... I am hooked for good. But that will require that I have a look at other concepts that I do not yet understand, learn new ideas and materials and find to ask the right questions. I could not do that on my own, and living here, as a German in Hungary (they don't even have a coast here...), with a very busy and demanding day-job in the IT sector, the only way to learn is via distance education.

So here is my question: having passed the fifties some years ago, and having a proper job already anyway, do I really have to fork out all that money and go back to learning and working all night long just to feel better?

On the other hand: When my boat is ready, and if I nicely continue to publish my stuff and try to promote my ideas, all this might gain momentum and it would sure be nice to have a few "professional" plans to pay occasionally for my cigarettes while cruising ;-)

And Stu - I already asked that in a mail and you send me a short answer, but I am still worried about the metric/imperial issue? Can the course be done all metric?

Finally: Do the projects designed during the courses become part of the student's portfolio, is there enough leeeway to personalize each project to fit my own ideas and tastes, and - of course - who retains the right to the designs?

[Willallison]

And Stu - I already asked that in a mail and you send me a short answer, but I am still worried about the metric/imperial issue? Can the course be done all metric?


Yago - as a Westlawn student, maybe I can answer that for you, from a different perspective. Yes, you can do virtually the entire course in metric. There are a few places where it can be a bit challenging - calculating masts sizes etc is a good example - but in general it's no problem. I imagine that the revised student guide which is about to come out will further simplify matters and make it just as easy to do in metric as imperial

[yago]

.....but in general it's no problem. I imagine that the revised student guide which is about to come out will further simplify matters and make it just as easy to do in metric as imperial

Thanks Will, that was also what I understood from a mail I got from Westlawn, that I can hand in my work in metric. I guess what I really wanted to know is if the material is provided by the school also metric.
Of course you can always convvert, but when you come to more detailed formulas, I will understand much more instinctively the relationships in my own system.
A excellent example for that would be Gerr's scantling book, that you can use and work with entirely in both systems - reading and understanding Skenes is much less evident for us.

As for the new guide - any date for that yet?

As a student...(good to have you ;) ) can you tell us a bit more? Ho far are you advanced?
Can you tell us how lively the "campus" is? Do you use the forum a lot? Is there active ongoing exchange or even cooperation between students or is it just a you-and-the-school situation?
Is there any exchange between former- (now professional designers) and current Students?


Gerd

[Willallison]

As I said, almost all of the text(s) give both metric & imperial examples / formulas, but I expect the revised student guide will further improve things...
I'm told it's at the printers, so should be out pretty soon.

As far as my own studies go, I'm part way thru the final lesson of module 3, so almost 3/4's of the way thru. I'm enjoying it a lot and am learning an enormous amount. For me, the most challenging bit has bee coming to grips with the use of CAD. I would strongly suggest that anyone thinking of starting the course gets stuck in and learn how to use a couple of the programs - probably AutoCAD, Rhino and one or other of the many marine-specific programs like prosurf, multisurf, maxsurf etc. Tryin to complete the school lessons at the same time as learning how to use CAD is a big ask...

The forum was only recently revamped and looks like it is just starting to take off. As more students start to use it, so it's benefit will be felt by all.
I do keep in touch with one or two of the other students. It's a valuable way of bouncing ideas off others who are going thru the same stuff as you. Whether others do the same, I couldn't tell you.
I don't know about exchange between former and current students. It's a suggestion that you might like to put to the school, as I think it would be quite inspirational...

[yago]

Just to let you know, Will, I signed up, and am digging my heels in...from what I see so far, great material and lots of feet and inches. ;)

[RANCHI OTTO]

Dear Sir,

I'm a graduated from your school (1977 in two years....)

Actually I'm an indipendent Naval Architect, designer of a lot of high speed military and pleasure craft according the hull shape named ASD (Arrow System Design) invented by myself.

I would be pround to be inserted in your list.

My projects are illustrated in my web:

www.ranchidesign.ch

thanking in advance,
best regards,

Otto RANCHI
Naval Architect