To Foam or Not to Foam?

[4winns]

I am in the process of repairing my 1989 Four Winns Horizon 200. I am almost to the point where I need to foam. I stopped by a boat shop today to get more glass for the deck and was talking to the owner about foam products to use. The guy at the boat shop informed me that he hates foam and does not put foam back into any boats he repairs as foam will absorb water and is not needed. It never even crossed my mind not to foam, which has raised some questions. Do I foam or not? What is the general census? Thank you.

[CTMD]

The guy at the boat shop is obviously looking to spend a long period in jail. The foam is fitted to save your life in the event of damage.

I can guarantee based upon recent cases in Australia that if you were to remove the floatation foam out of a boat here and it sunk with loss off life you'd get a lot more than just a fine. I can't imagine the US would be any softer.

If you value your life and that of the friends and family you take out on your boat you'll replace the foam.

[4winns]

Thanks for the reply

[PAR]

Technically speaking, you're correct Chris, but from a practical stand point the guy at the boat yard is also correct.

A very small percentage of manufactures are actually installing foam correctly enough to insure it actually works. The type of foam, the environment it's installed in (the big culprit) and the level of expertise used, means the foam will absorb moisture, causing whole delamination and rot within a measurable time frame. You show me any 15 year old production boat and I'll show you rotten underpinnings. In the worst cases hundreds of pounds worth of water being along for the ride too.

You can be sued for just about anything currently, but letting this insure an inferior method is placed within a structure seems folly to me. I've been telling folks to not place the foam back in their water soaked production rebuilds for years. I too, will only be client forced to install foam and then will insist on the good block stuff, no the pourable, two part stuff that has been the rage for a couple of decades now.

Does this make me vulnerable to a negligence suit, yep, it sure does, but fortunately none have sunk as a result of not having foam. A couple have sunk (well swamped really, the transom plug has to be used), but trapped air in the enclosed chambers permitted a pump out and easy salvage. The foam wouldn't have prevented these boats from swamping, nor would they have floated any higher.

I suppose, if one was badly holed, I might be in trouble, but if compartmentalized as I do it, not such a big issue, as the remaining compartments preform their function.

[apex1]

Technically speaking, you're correct Chris, but from a practical stand point the guy at the boat yard is also correct.

A very small percentage of manufactures are actually installing foam correctly enough to insure it actually works. The type of foam, the environment it's installed in (the big culprit) and the level of expertise used, means the foam will absorb moisture, causing whole delamination and rot within a measurable time frame. You show me any 15 year old production boat and I'll show you rotten underpinnings. In the worst cases hundreds of pounds worth of water being along for the ride too.

You can be sued for just about anything currently, but letting this insure an inferior method is placed within a structure seems folly to me. I've been telling folks to not place the foam back in their water soaked production rebuilds for years. I too, will only be client forced to install foam and then will insist on the good block stuff, no the pourable, two part stuff that has been the rage for a couple of decades now.

Does this make me vulnerable to a negligence suit, yep, it sure does, but fortunately none have sunk as a result of not having foam. A couple have sunk (well swamped really, the transom plug has to be used), but trapped air in the enclosed chambers permitted a pump out and easy salvage. The foam wouldn't have prevented these boats from swamping, nor would they have floated any higher.

I suppose, if one was badly holed, I might be in trouble, but if compartmentalized as I do it, not such a big issue, as the remaining compartments preform their function.

Paul, is it better to be blind, or better to be deaf, if advice is not conveniant?

[Ike]

Having spent many years testing boats for flotation and advising manufacturers on flotation, I think I have a little insight here. In fact I just finished up a research project on why some foam absorbs water and some doesn't.

Par is right. By the way, in the U. S. It is not illegal for a boat owner to remove the foam. Foolish perhaps, but not illegal. It could get you sued in the event of an accident though. Flotation is a manufacturer requirement, that is the manufacturer of the boat is required to provide flotation on monohull boat under 20 feet in length. Your Four Winns may actually be longer than that so if it has flotation it is because Four Winns follows ABYC standards which recommends flotation in boats larger than 20 feet but it is not required.

Foam is not required either. Flotation can be acheived in many ways and foam is only one of them. However it is probably the most convenient for manufacturers. Unfortunately they mostly use 2 part blown polyurethane foam, and there lies the problem. If done right, strictly according to the foam manufacturer's instructions the foam will not absorb water and will last the life of the boat. But most don't follow the instructions and so you get some boats that have water soaked foam. The point is the foam isn't supposed to absorb water at all. So why does it? that's another question all together.

Should You replace the foam? Yes. But use block foam if at all possible. Machine made block foam does not have this problem. Remember the incident in Florida with the NFL players who were killed off shore? Well, the one who survived was sitting on his boat. It floated nicely, upside down, but nicely. That boat saved his life.

Absolutely do not use that blown foam that comes in spray cans. That stuff is good for insulation in houses but doesn't last very long in boats. As before use block polyurethane foam. You can get it from industrial supply companies that supply insulation for building construction, or you may be able to get it through some marine repairers.

[Ike]

By the way, from another post I made on this subject;

A cheap alternative is styrofoam. You can get 2" sheets of it at Home Depot or other hardware stores. They are 2" by 2 feet by 8 feet which is about 2.67 cubic feet. Cut them to a convenient size and seal them in fiberglass with epoxy resign. That is exactly what I did on my 12 foot rowboat. If I recall right it cost me less than $20 to buy 2 sheets of foam and I already had the epoxy and Glass. You seal them to keep the foam from being dissolved by gas or oils or cleaners, and it keeps the water out. Cheap and effective.

[4winns]

I have decided to go with the block foam for several reasons pointed out to me but mostly piece of mind. Great forum and I appreciate all the helpfull replies. Just for the heck of it, i've attempted to attache a couple of pics of some of the earlier work.

[rwatson]

Must be a different type of styrofoam. The white stuff I bought dissolved when I tried to put Polyester resin on it.

I havent tried epoxy.

[Ike]

Polyester resin will dissolve polystyrene foam. That is why I said use epoxy resin.