10 to 30 % fuel saving with much lower emission, for or against ?

[kistinie]

WATER

Almost whatever the way you inject water into an engine, you will get a benefit

This is real
This is now
This works

For cooling and avoiding auto combustion off high compression and compressed engines
By mixing water and fuel
This works but this is the past


water must be recycled as much as possible in the engine.
splitting H² and O² with exhaust heat in a gillier pantone type reactor that gives you up to 40% more mileage and low pollution as well as a power and torque gain
Best of both worlds !
I am pretty sure the gain could be much higher with an improved technology...look at the primitive way it is done, compare to the results ! 30% gain in most cases with level o technology !
Just imagine a high tech giller pantone reactor with a computer to control the process


And for tomorrow
... plenty other smart things all water based, most being based on quantum physic effects ! A different energy is possible and accessible TODAY with simple devices.

Learn it, and do it
All this works, i do it on my own stationary engines, my neighbours cars have it, this is true and verified, not an invention, fishermen boats, tractors , industry dumpers... even GOV support it, and what about you ?

Get some info down there, good bath !

General
#7 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/emission-controls-technical-thread-27515.html#post276616)

Examples and a little theory
#35 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/emission-controls-technical-thread-27515-3.html#post278822)


Water is not dirty
water is life
water is energy

But think water is you
Please stop burning oil.
Use water as a quantum tank.

Rather go solar first as much as possible.
Kinetic energy is great too
water capacity effect with constant fields
and if you have no other choice it can be burnt with recycling


Anyway
One Gillier Pantone explained
http://quanthomme.free.fr/pantone/realisations/details42.htm

[FAST FRED]

Water injection is 1930's tech for aircraft engines.

It was used on takeoff at max power to reduce detonation.

Alcohol was used as an antifreez in locations that needed to keep the injection water liquid.

The water injection did not add power , it allowed the power to be created with less chance of detonation .

A side bonus is cleaner exhaust valves and cylinder head.

Folks with high compression cars or sports bikes can be run at high idle , and will benefit from using an insect sprayer to spray water in the intake for 3-5 min.

Place a newspaper under the exhaust pipe and watch the carbon chunks collect!

FF

[kistinie]

yes you are right FF

But Gillier Pantone is much smarter than a basic water injection
Once heated the water vapour is turned into plasma and electrolysed by the stainless steel reactor.
This way you inject huge quantity of H² and O² as well as creating a quantum vortex if your piping in well done
Only the vortex effect is universel, burning water is efficient but painful to many religions
Burning water is a problem as it is burning us
But on another hand it revealed the vortex effect that is a true good thing !

So, again, only the quantum vortex effect should be used with recycled exhaust water.
A quantum distillation in fact

[mark775]

fantasy, sorry.

[CDK]

Water injection is 1930's tech for aircraft engines.

It was used on takeoff at max power to reduce detonation.

Alcohol was used as an antifreez in locations that needed to keep the injection water liquid.

The water injection did not add power , it allowed the power to be created with less chance of detonation .

A side bonus is cleaner exhaust valves and cylinder head.

Folks with high compression cars or sports bikes can be run at high idle , and will benefit from using an insect sprayer to spray water in the intake for 3-5 min.

Place a newspaper under the exhaust pipe and watch the carbon chunks collect!

FF

There once was a passenger car with water injection, the Studebaker Avanti.
Like you said just to allow a 12:1 compression without detonating the pistons to pieces. Because the car had an unorthodox shape for that era and when Studebaker closed down, the Avanti was continued by a small private company that silently disappeared after a couple of years.
A stillborn child, no serious company ever used the technology again.

[kistinie]

fantasy, sorry.

More than 100 test have been done in France ...and 1000 would be more accurate
Mainly farmers do it, on big new tractors...:)
Do farmers often spend 1500€ add on on their new tractors, just to spend 1500 ? For no reward ?:?: :?:
Not in France :idea:
Same for fishermen, they save 1000. litre a week.:idea:
i have given proof of my statements, visit all the provided links from national TV networks TF1, FRANCE 3...:P
Have you done test and measures ?:?: :?:
What idea makes you think it is so ?:rolleyes:
What is your experience ?:?:


Fly here and check by yourself, be my guest, i will show you.
Film it all with me and broadcast it !
Cap !
Chiche !

You have no reason to be affraid, saving oil, saving burning it is a priority, so showing a device that seems to work is positive and coherent to our world aim.
if it is proved to be wrong, we will all be sad.
Else we will have done a good thing to reduce oil problem.
It is the aim, No ?

i also undertand that burning water is painfull to you.
Same for me that is why i said for or not

[mydauphin]

kistinie
Hybrid corsair


It doesn't matter how many threads you open on this. Or wikipedia entry. It doesn't alter laws of physics. It does not do as promised by you or other snake oil salesmans. Stop with the guerrilla marketing.

FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW - kistinie and others in this board are trying to sell you a bill of goods based on technology that is proven not to work.
Actually water injection is very old technology as mentioned. But as many years of test including by yours truly it does not add to the combustion process more than reducing detonation in a over compress/bad Gasoline engine. IT doesn't generate power nor does separating Hydrogen and oxygen and injecting does separately.

[mydauphin]

yes you are right FF

But Gillier Pantone is much smarter than a basic water injection
Once heated the water vapour is turned into plasma and electrolysed by the stainless steel reactor.
This way you inject huge quantity of H² and O² as well as creating a quantum vortex if your piping in well done

40% of water is an easy job, this with more power and less emission.
Fly to France and you will be able to see hundred of these motors, and check this by measures.

Water turned into Plasma.... On what planet???
Quantum vortex... What Universe??

kistinie - Hybrid corsair -- your dilithium crystals are overheating.... Phasers on stun...

[kistinie]

Ok no universe, no hybrid, no E.P.R, no CASIMIR, no quantum, no vortex, no black hole, no plasma, no sonoluminescence, no thermoacoustic, no orgon, no ehter, ...n0 overheating,n0 chemtrails, n0 haarp,
dilithium crystals are Ok captain !
Just...Vacuum


Can you show us some of your sources for what you claim ?
or give us a model, teach us why, demonstrating with evidences
:D

it does work
The question is to burn or NOT water for 50% gain, worth the pain of burning water ?
burning can have bad taste.

[PAR]

Some one's been reading 1970's back issues of "Mother Earth News" again . . .

This is much like the "Famous Healers" that pray on fools in weird church settings and religious overtones. They place "hands" on poor helpless victims of some incurable illness and suddenly they're cured. It must be a miracle!

Lets say for a moment that only half of the above is true. Hell, let's be fair and say only 20% of the folks that come to be healed actually do get healed. Don't you think that a large corporate HMO or other medical industry giant, would have this "healer" in a multi-billion dollar contract in a New York minute. Well, of course they would, it's only good business sense, let alone good for public relations. Think of what their blue chip preferred would do the next day!

The same is true of the 100 MPG carburetors and the wonder devices attached to fuel lines with refrigerator magnets in them, that promise 20% more MPG and cleaner air too. If you're nice, I'll bet they'll keep your wife faithful too.

What corporation would jump at the chance to retro fit every engine with a "reactor" that increased fuel efficiency 50%.

Oh, please . . .

For what it's worth, I know who really killed JFK . . . send me a 20 dollar bill, in a self addressed envelope and I'll email the name . . . of course you'll have to sign a nondisclosure agreement to protect the innocent . . .

[kistinie]

For what it's worth, I know who really killed JFK . . . send me a 20 dollar bill, in a self addressed envelope and I'll email the name . . . of course you'll have to sign a nondisclosure agreement to protect the innocent . . .
No thanks, really sorry
I sign the amendment to protect the innocent :-)) Better than nothing ?
Sorry again.


What corporation would jump at the chance to retro fit every engine with a "reactor" that increased fuel efficiency 50%.

Oh, please . . .
Be my gest,

sailor solidarity is unlimited like ether and C
infinite as ocean.

They will certainly do it:
Renault patent : N° 05300443.8 - 01/06/2005
Renault and PSA patent is a degraded version of Gillier Pantone, soon produced for cars
i hope it will use as much quantum energy as possible from water coming only from recycling
Quantum Effect will grow with the time
In this way, i like it

[PAR]

Is it a translation issue or does anyone else understand what this one is trying to say? Or, should I offer him a good price on the Everglades property I have?

[apex1]

Is it a translation issue or does anyone else understand what this one is trying to say? Or, should I offer him a good price on the Everglades property I have?

To the former question: naturally not!
To the latter: a good idea Paul!

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

I also know who killed Hoffa, send mea self addressed envelop with $20 and for $100 more I will tell you where Blackbear's Treasure is. Has anyone made a boat with mash potato?

[PAR]

No, but I have shot boats with raw ones . . .

[mudman]

Cajun seasoning is real and turkey is real. If I inject cajun seasoning in a turkey and fry it, it tastes good.

[Jimbo1490]

Water injection serves the same function as 'power enrichment', nothing more. EFI engines need a lot less power enrichment than did carburated engines. This is because part of the function of PE in a carburated engine is to prevent the mixture from going excessively lean (fuel 'drop out') due to the rapid change in manifold pressure as the throttle plates are opened quickly. This does not happen with EFI since there is never any fuel in the intake manifold. So the last remaining function of PE is to cool the combustion process down a bit by simple evaporation. Water actually does a better job of this than fuel owing to its greater transitional heat energy than any fuel, and of course it's way cheaper. The extra fuel of PE is not burned, of course, just evaporated contributing to unburned HC emissions. But EGR has replaced most, if not all, of even this last function of PE as EGR cools the combustion process also.

So what function could water injection have in such an engine?

I smell snake oil.

Jimbo

[marshmat]

Damn, Jimbo, just when we were starting to get some good aimless rambling, you go and start talking about real technology.... ;)

PAR, you got any of those good 10-foot alligators on that property, or just the little guys?

[rasorinc]

As a kid freinds and I made a potato cannon. Using black powder we got about a 100 yards with it. Par, I've got some flat land in Nevada you can throw in to sweeten the deal. A point in fact my 2005 Subaru STI race car had a water injection button that when pushed gave you about 10-15 extra horse power. To be used only on hot days as the purpose was to cool down the fuel/air mixture. Can't say I really noticed any difference but with 400HP at the wheels in a 2,400 lb. car 10-15 more HP would be hard to notice. Boy did I love that car.

[AmbitiousAmatur]

One thing that has been tried and proven by home tinkerers is Brown's Gas Generation. The process involves using the surplus electric current produced by your alternator to power a cell that generates and injects H2 and O directly into your air intake in the proper ratios. There are even companies that sell devices commercially as well. It is just like electrolysis in high school chem lab. Makes more sense than injecting liquid water (non explosive) into your cylinders. You can even purchase high amperage alternators which do not use much more engine horsepower than standard alternators to supply extra energy for such a cause. I have a design in my head that would be bolt-on for any engine and quite controllable and it overcomes some of the problems that other users have stated. I just need to find the time to build it. Propane injection has proven to have similar effects in diesel engines. Many of the people developing devices seem to be just "rednecks" who have worked on cars all of their lives and understand the inner-workings of an engine and some basic chemistry.

[Jimbo1490]

Hydrolysis of water is energy net negative. Water is after all, burned hydrogen. You get less energy back when you burn it than you put in to split it into H2 and O2.

Jimbo

[kistinie]

One thing that has been tried and proven by home tinkerers is Brown's Gas Generation. The process involves using the surplus electric current produced by your alternator to power a cell that generates and injects H2 and O directly into your air intake in the proper ratios. There are even companies that sell devices commercially as well. It is just like electrolysis in high school chem lab. Makes more sense than injecting liquid water (non explosive) into your cylinders. You can even purchase high amperage alternators which do not use much more engine horsepower than standard alternators to supply extra energy for such a cause. I have a design in my head that would be bolt-on for any engine and quite controllable and it overcomes some of the problems that other users have stated. I just need to find the time to build it. Propane injection has proven to have similar effects in diesel engines. Many of the people developing devices seem to be just "rednecks" who have worked on cars all of their lives and understand the inner-workings of an engine and some basic chemistry.

Ambitious ! Great, never give up !
Amatur : wonderful !, it means you love what you do.

Is water a source of energy, yes.
But this question is not the good question as the answer is known for almost 100 years
The question is why don't we burn it and shall we burn water ?
And to me the answer is NO, it is a false good idea
Water is our life, our soul...
Just try to think of the idea of burning water, does it make you feel good ?


An hydrolyser producing brown gaze is a quantum machine.
Digging also the question of the quantum machines, it appear that they will also have a drawback as they create vortex, small black holes.
So as well as learning quantum tech, we must learn how to compensate these black holes.
As a basic rule, do it small, do it like acupuncture, never forget zero point energy is unlimited so exponential effect will happen. Do it small. Small volts, small amps, connect it, stop it, never let it run all day, else : Infinite Accident !

Safe solutions that should be preferred above all the others:
Air energy
Solar energy
Bio gaze

Till then i really like dual fuel, like a gaze with a diesel
This is an excellent retrofit option to gain mileage and cut emissions drastically

Good search !
Do not give up

[wardd]

there is no surplus alternator energy as energy was used to make the current in the first place

[kerosene]

Ok no universe, no hybrid, no E.P.R, no CASIMIR, no quantum, no vortex, no black hole, no plasma, no sonoluminescence, no thermoacoustic, no orgon, no ehter, ...n0 overheating,n0 chemtrails, n0 haarp,


2 serious questions

1. Do you know where the energy comes when hydrocarbons are burnt? Or hydrogen or carbon alone for that matter. Can you please describe this (layman terms is fine)

2. Can you provide basic explanations to:
- orgone
- ether
- plasma

Thanks,
H

[mydauphin]

there is no surplus alternator energy as energy was used to make the current in the first place

Exactly, it take HP to generate the amps need produce electrolysis, more energy than it produces by burning H2 and O2...

[mydauphin]

kistinie, has concepts from alternative universes.

[apex1]

Ambitious ! Great, never give up !
Amatur : wonderful !, it means you love what you do

Good search !
Do not give up

I still prefer to make it short if it is you..... Idiot.......

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

1. Do you know where the energy comes when hydrocarbons are burnt? Or hydrogen or carbon alone for that matter. Can you please describe this (layman terms is fine)

2. Can you provide basic explanations to:
- orgone
- ether
- plasma

Thanks,
H
Burning is ageing.
E comes from an accelerated ageing. The energy a tree will broadcast during all his life including its decomposition time is used in a second and sent away in space.

Orgone is the term used by W.R
Ether is the antique Greece name. This physical phenomena was also known by Egyptians, Inca ...
I think orgone and ether is a very complex thing as it is resulting of the interaction of 7 strings plus our 4 dimensions, that statistically will bring a high combination number.
Equations tell us Orgone can be a time distortion...


Plasma, is the matter level above gaseous state.(above plasma...i do not know if there is another state)
Plasma is used in decorative lamps or cutter using compress air and electricity like this:
http://www.plasma-cutter.com/
Cold fusion from the plasma state is old as the first strike lightning that touched the earth

You are welcome.


kistinie, has concepts from alternative universes.
String theory is one.

[kerosene]

Burning is ageing.
E comes from an accelerated ageing.

--------

Orgone is the term used by W.R
Ether is the antique Greece name. This physical phenomena was also known by Egyptians, Inca ...
-------
Equations tell us Orgone can be a time distortion...
-----

---------
You are welcome.




Thanks. That clears a lot and gives a me a great point to exit this discussion.

[Jimbo1490]

Exactly, it take HP to generate the amps need produce electrolysis, more energy than it produces by burning H2 and O2...

Ahhhh! So this is the little misunderstanding which is the source of your irrational exuberance over hydrogen!

Kistinie, don't you think that if this were really true, then we'd all be


Driving cars fueled by hydrogen


Producing electricity using hydrogen fueled power plants


Beacuse all we'd have to do is use fossil fuels to generate electricity, then split water with that electricity, then burn the H2 and have MORE ENERGY than the electricity (produced by fossil fuel) that we expended into splitting the water!

In fact, after an initial start-up on fossil fuel, our magic power plant would no longer even require further fossil fuel, but simply run on hydrogen produced by splitting water since that process is, according to Kistinie, energy 'Net Positive'.

Finally: Perpetual motion realized:D

Think about it logically:

If you burned something, like wood, and collected all the smoke, combustion gases and ash carefully, then attempted to synthesize cellulose out of those combustion by-products, what do you think the odds are that you would expend more energy in re-synthesizing cellulose from smoke and ash than you got from burning the wood in the first place? I'd say you have NO CHANCE of using less energy in synthesizing cellulose from smoke than you get from burning cellolose.

It will be less negative for water, which is after all, burned hydrogen. Hydrogen is the simplest atom in the universe, so re-synthesizing H2 from H2O will certainly be less energy intensive that trying to make wood from smoke. But the laws of conservation of energy will not allow us to recover more energy from even the simplest reduction reaction of H2O back to H2. So in the end 'less negative' is not good enough because it's still NEGATIVE!

More energy is required for splitting water than you get back by by re-combining the H2 and O (burning). The only way this makes sense is if the energy for splitting the water is essentially 'free' such as produced by solar. Still, more energy goes in than comes out, but then we can transport the hydrogen and use it far from the solar collectors. So then the hydrogen has become only a storage media, like a battery.


But that is not what you keep promoting; you keep promoting the idea of using electricity produced by burning fossil fuel to split the water, then re-burning the H2.




This is energy 'Net Negative'

Jimbo

P.S.

You could argue that the same thing is true for all fuel molecules: Far more energy was expended in producing them than we can recover by burning. But with fossil fuels, we don't have to synthesize them, only mine them.

[kerosene]

Jimbo - your arguments are very solid and accurate - however - more or less same arguments have been laid out before to Kistinie and other HHO fanatics. None have been able to explain where this extra energy comes from.

I recommend unsubscribe from the thread and forget this discussion - it will save your brain and plenty of time. No point in reasoning, it will be just waste of time.

[AmbitiousAmatur]

[QUOTE=PAR;279496]Some one's been reading 1970's back issues of "Mother Earth News" again . . .

This is much like the "Famous Healers" that pray on fools in weird church settings and religious overtones. They place "hands" on poor helpless victims of some incurable illness and suddenly they're cured. It must be a miracle!


Here in Jackson County Alabama they handle snakes and swear by it. "Any kind people catch so long as their poisionous."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObhvOeNCKhs

[AmbitiousAmatur]

I can see some legitimacy to a device that separates water through electrolysis as hydrogen does have 3 times the energy per mass of octane by volume. You are actually using surplus energy from your alternator so it still fits into the law of conservation. The question then becomes how much extra strain is produced by extra draw against the alternator vs. how much extra power is achieved. Injecting the oxygen part of water works similarly to NO2 on a smaller scale so I could see some benefit there, but once again all things considered is there an actual gain overall?

Some companies are now pitching a propane injection system for diesels that claims to fill wasted space at the top of the cylinder with propane because it exist as a gas in its natural state. but as any educated person knows:
a.) propane when compressed to 30,000 PSI in a cylinder turns back into a liquid.
b.) If this does in fact work, too much will blow the head right off of an engine.

[AmbitiousAmatur]

Cajun seasoning is real and turkey is real. If I inject cajun seasoning in a turkey and fry it, it tastes good.

Does this work on Turkduckens too?

[AmbitiousAmatur]

I do however have to say that an Indian car company has developed an engine that runs on compressed air. It has a range of close to 150 miles and speeds up to 80 mph. The main problem that I see is that the tank is compressed to 4500 PSI. It would take quite a blunt force to cause rupture with that amount of internal pressure, but a puncture would cause quite the catastrophy.

[kistinie]

it will save your brain and plenty of time. No point in reasoning, it will be just waste of time.

Or just the opposite ?
;-)

[kerosene]

I can see some legitimacy to a device that separates water through electrolysis as hydrogen does have 3 times the energy per mass of octane by volume. You are actually using surplus energy from your alternator so it still fits into the law of conservation.
.

Nope - alternator's resistance depends on the load running the electrolysis setup adds load to the engine - there is no "surplus alternator power".

Besides that 100w of electricity even when with 100% efficient electrolysis would give 30w from the engine as the combustion engine has efficiency in 30% range (at best).

However these dudes advertise 30-90% fuel consumption reductions.

[kerosene]

Or just the opposite ?
;-)

No point wasting time, it will be just reasoning?

nope that makes no sense.

[mudman]

I do however have to say that an Indian car company has developed an engine that runs on compressed air. It has a range of close to 150 miles and speeds up to 80 mph. The main problem that I see is that the tank is compressed to 4500 PSI. It would take quite a blunt force to cause rupture with that amount of internal pressure, but a puncture would cause quite the catastrophy.

I believe that when trains made the conversion from steam to diesel electric, they were running on compressed air. The only problem was that they had to have so many fill stations to keep the train going and it proved unacceptable.

Newer designs of compressed air engines though recirculate the expended air back into the holding tank. If it works, and is cost effective, I believe that I'd take the chance of the tank going boom. I mean, right now I drive with 20 gallons of highly combustable material under the floor.

I think that the pnumatic motors are far more likely to be used than some HHO nonsense.

[kerosene]

pneumatic systems are interesting - there are some french city cars that use it and other small "non-constant-use" vehicles like fork lifts I believe.

Energy intensity is not the greatest but still pretty promising tech. There was a thread in the forum about using it for boats.

But its worth stressing that the air works as a store of energy (battery really) rather than source of energy. You need outside source to run the compressors.

[mydauphin]

Air is a very bad store energy. You need 60hp to compress to get 30hp out.
A battery/capacitor is more efficient and can store a lot more per Cubic whatever size. A hydraulic drive is more efficient but not for storing.