PVC Pipes for water on boats

[mydauphin]

I would like have people opinions on using PVC and CPVC pipes for water and graywater, blackwater drainage pipes. Obviously they would have flexible joints at certain points. But could they be used for single long spans with flexible ends.

[rasorinc]

They are used in all homes, commercial and industrial constuction and are I.C.B.O. and U.B.C. approved so why not. PVC is not really approved for HOT water but it has a plastic cousin that is. Blue or maybe yellow pipe using a different adhesive.
Using all copper adds to a galvanic corrosion potential problem in sea water. Even natural gas piping is plastic today and fire hydrant high pressure pipe is a thicker blue pipe and is used extensivly. Use schedule 40 as it is a minimum. schedule 20 is for sprinkler systems and schedule 80 is for high pressures which you will not have. With all the avaiable fittings you do not have to use a flexible pipe.

[Ilan Voyager]

There is also a plastic pipe sold in Mexico under the name Tuboplus (made under german licence) by the firm ROTOPLAS. The pipes are green with a liner white inside. Needs a special tool (in fact an electric heater cost about 150 bucks) to join it by fusion.

Very good stuff. It withstands hot water at 95 celsius (200 F), salt water, black water, some corrosive liquids and UV. I have used it on 2 small boats, and a medium pressure air circuit (about 150 PSI) exposed to the sun and weather: after 2 years as good as new.
Nice feature the couplings have threaded male and female inserts in a metal which looks like a cupro nickel. Salt water does not oxyde it.

Before using it I made some crude experiments.
It's virtually unbreakable: hammer, vise, press, and several destructive devices. It seems impervious to vibrations, you can bend it a 90 degrees and it will come back, it's given for 24.3 kg/cm2 (345 PSI) max pressure I have tried to burst a tube (with the due precautions) using air from a dive cylinder at 600 PSI; nothing happened.
It's a low modulus plastic Polypropylene Random Copolymer (PP-R). Not rigid, but that outclass all the PVC I know. I do not use PVC on boats because the have a tendency to crack and are unable to accept deformations or flexing. PVC do not age well as I see in my own house plumbing and it's planned to replace it with Tuboplus.

http://www.tuboplus.com/tuboplus07/ in spanish. It's worth to make a Google search.

[TollyWally]

I wonder what a US equivilent might be?

[rwatson]

PVC pipes accept embedding in Polyester resin very well - forms a tight, bonded connection. A previous boat I owned used PVC pipe as a curved "former" for fibreglass, and there was never any question of disconnection or fracture in the years that it was in use.

MacGregor yachts embed PVC pipe as an outflow for water ballast into the f/g hull.

I am planning to do a fair bit of it in my next project. I would give it the thumbs up myself

[Frosty]

This may raise some eybrows here. My exhausts are PVC, twin Yanmar 250HP 6LP turbos with surface props so always up 3500 RPM.

The first foot out of the turbo is stainless the rest is PVC thick wall blue pipe glued up.

They are now 5 years old.

[Boston]

I have an inherent distrust of plastics
although as R Watson implies
plastic sticks to plastic pretty darn well
so if the rest is also plastic it kinda makes sense
if its a wood hull
I would not use plastics in the through hull areas if for no other reason than the expansion and contraction issues with sealant it presents
best of luck
B

[marshmat]

Somehow I think you'd have a hard time finding PVC that meets SAE J2006 for wet exhaust systems. But since Frosty's still alive, I guess it works...

For potable water you'd want something with the NSF 61 marking, indicating it won't leach anything nasty into your drinking water. PEX tubing is becoming quite popular for potable water, some say it's easier to install. If you do use rigid PVC, it would have to be supported in the middle of any long spans- water is heavy!

[Ilan Voyager]

Yes, polyester sticks well to PVC but in this case PVC is rather a lost mold for a GRP pipe. It works but it's better to have a joint (for example a "rubber" pipe) to allow some movement. PVC and GRP are brittle and you'll end with annoying leaks. For example the cockpit drainers are prone to crack if a "rubber" joint is not used.

The use of PVC in a exhaust: huhhhh I prefer a good synthetic rubber pipe...

But the "tuboplus" is amazing, really it's worth to try. Rotoplas is known here for his good quality products at fair prices (for once we have a company making good products it's worth to mention it). I do not know if it's sold in the States (a search would give the answer) for such polypropylene pipes.

Here in Cancun, it's taking the place of the Flow Guard PVC and the copper which became very expensive, as it's better and cheaper. It's replacing also the galvanized steel in the 150 PSI compressed air systems, for the same reasons; better and cheaper.

In my opinion it has it's place in a boat's plumbing system.

[apex1]

Thanks Ilan for sharing.
Rotoplas seems to be a Mexican compny using a German patent. I could not find any other source.
You?

Regards
Richard

[Ilan Voyager]

I'll make a search as I have the advantage to read in english, french and spanish. For the german no hope.

Living in Germany (Hamburg), if I'm not mistaken, maybe you can read german.

I has been told by a german friend living in Cancun and working in construction that these pipes are well known and used in Germany. Tomorrow I'll post the results of the search. The funniest would be that the Americans have to import it from Mexico :D

[Ilan Voyager]

As promised I made a search. I've found everywhere in the world but nothing in the States...astonishing.

To show what are missing our "amerikanische Freunds" I give an Indian link where you'll some pics and explanations in english.

http://aquaflow.in/afs.htm

Admire the nice couplings in metal embedded in the plastic...that doesn't break or leak.

[mydauphin]

Once again, very interesting guys. Much to think about...
Frosty, PVC for exhaust... wow... At least they wont melt underwater line...I guess as long as water flows.... I would love to see Coast Guards or surveyors face... But you gave me idea for inside of muffler....

In summary, Mexican-German stuff is best. but in a pinch Home Depot schedule 80 pvc is OK.... with precautions on joints....
I was thinking of making solar water heater with CPVC ... later

[apex1]

As promised I made a search. I've found everywhere in the world but nothing in the States...astonishing.
To show what are missing our "amerikanische Freunds" I give an Indian link where you'll some pics and explanations in english.
http://aquaflow.in/afs.htm
Admire the nice couplings in metal embedded in the plastic...that doesn't break or leak.

Thanks again Ilan,
I have it:

http://www.aquatherm-pipesystems.com/20.0.html

[Ilan Voyager]

You're welcome. That the purpose of a forum. To share knowledge. Very interesting the german site a lot of good explanations.:)

[TollyWally]

Well looking on the bright side this is an opportunity for someone. What do you all think would be a good way to get what appears to be a desirable product into the states? It would seem to me that exporting it into the states from Mexico would be the hot ticket. Who knows what kind of red tape this entails?

Thanks

[Ilan Voyager]

Maybe, as I haven't found any internet site of a US company. It would be good to to ask Rotoplas. They are not stupid if there is an american market they would go in. They sell in all Latin America.

Americans, seen from the mexican side and with a french eye, are curious "free traders". They are always imposing to sell in Mexico with no obstacles of any kind, but there are always difficulties when the Mexican want to sell in the States;
The strawberries are found contaminated (it was proved later that the strawberries were contaminated in the States...) and that curiously just after the lobby of californian producers made some pressure over Washington, idem for the tomatoes, shrimps and too numerous examples.

The last being about the right of Mexican trucks of entering in the States, after a lobbying by the american syndicate of truckers...Actually an harsh subject of discussion between the 2 governments, after the big problem of the american market of drugs fueling the Narcos cartels in Mexico. We are in a almost war in the north of Mexico here because of the insatiable demand of cocaine by the americans (8000 deads in 1.5 year... most of them killed with guns provided by american traffickers).

So I would not be surprised that any american agency would find, at the contrary of the rest of the world, that the tuboplus is not safe or do not comply with the article 52 bis of the ruling of water pipes AJ1558 of the 25 of April 1952, not applicable to the american plastic pipe producers but applicable to the foreign producers specially mexican. (Joke!)

You may expect some problems. "Too far from God, to close to the United States" said 130 years ago Porfirio Diaz (not a good guy), it seems always true.

But surely I'm too pessimistic.

[lymanwhite]

I wonder if pvc gets a good attachment with epoxy as well as polyester resin? Sounds like a good idea to use schedule 80 to resist cracking, trading off the weight gain. Hard banging boats would really shock load unsupported plumbing runs, especially for trailer boats. Supporting any horizontal lines by taping them to the hull would offer good support.
I saw a rebuild of a skiff and the guy used some grey electrical / underground pvc I believe its a min. sched 80.
Tuboplus (made under german licence) by the firm ROTOPLAS sounds awesome. Did Ilan Voyager say this was becoming the Mexican plumbing standard, or simply that he was replacing plumbing with it?

[mydauphin]

I wonder if Coast Guard or someone else would find a problem with installation PVC or CPVC because of fire and PVC Flammability?

[rasorinc]

It passes UBC and ICBO standards the Coast Guard will OK it. White PVC is OK for cold water. There is another color for Hot water. Either schedule 40 or 80 is OK. I go with 40 and they have many fittings for vibration, flex, etc. including foam sleeves.
the CG will have special regs re: fuel tanks, venting, sump pumps, gas detectors, etc. and you can find these on their site under back yard boat builders.

[oscarvan]

There's a download menu on the left on the aquatherm site. English is there, although the choices are still in German, the downloads are in English. Here's the "Ship building" pdf:

http://www.aquatherm-pipesystems.com/uploads/media/E18910_Schiffsbau.pdf

[mark775]

The Americans Import tons of stuff from Mexico (what the hell are you talking about?)... but not this, that I can find. Pex is fantastic but big gray water pipes, etc., deserve Green Thread or similar (said, but I have some ABS in non-boat-sinking parts of my boat). Glassing PVC into a hull with poly has sunk boats. Using it as a mold for substantial glass to be threaded and valved is another story. It is but a mechanical bond and will delam with a whack.
Strawberries? If a US grower complains to the FDA, or whoever - the agency has to act as it is their resposibility to do and have no obligation to consider a Mexican farmer's plight. Jeez, the agencies just try to address problems as put on their plate. Government agencies, as a rule, are not competent enough to be evil. The dude working there wants more benefits, first, pay raise second, and security in these times. California strawberies are the biggest, brightest, most beautiful things you can imagine that don't taste anything like a strawberry. This is one place where "organic" rules.
I know it is the Mexican's favorite pastime Gritar "CONSPIRACY" every time something doesn't go their way but a fifth of the US is Mexican now so I don't think they all feel as you. Quit your conspiracy bullshit. (The trucks? Hope/Change just walked all over an international treaty to help pay off the damned Teamsters for voting for him - I'll give you that)

[Ilan Voyager]

The Americans Import tons of stuff from Mexico ...Quit your conspiracy bullshit. (The trucks? Hope/Change just walked all over an international treaty to help pay off the damned Teamsters for voting for him - I'll give you that)

Keep cool, first I'm not mexican but a froggie (french) living in Mexico that's maybe worst, second I was half joking, half serious; I remember for example the authorization problems of the plane Corcorde (beginning of 70's) because an obscure fact of noise.

I maintain that the US is a free trader when it's good for it, and preferably in the way US to Mexico. (the biggest part of Mexican exportation is made of goods made by US companies for the US market using the cheap mexican labor) The US accept the Chinese importations only because the Chinese are financing the enormous and colossal US debt. If the Chinese stop tomorrow of placing their financial savings in US bonds, the US is bankrupt. Read some solid economics analysis in books and mags.

There is no conspiracy just facts. I do not give a s... of stupid conspiracy theories (Moon landing and others), and Mexican fatalism is a reality; complaining but not acting.

Stubborn facts are Monroe doctrine for Latin America, 1847 war, 09/11/73 in Chile, Somoza, Noriega, Perez Jimenez, Videla, Stroessner, Kubitchek, Contras, Death Squadrons, Banana Republics, Panama, unfair economics...

The proximity of the States, and the behavior of Mexican "elites" has killed any possibility of an independent industry in this country. Mexico had the potential to be the South Korea of North America.

So the Mexicans produce cars for the Americans brands but have not national ones with cars adapted to the national market- irony of the story GM survives now in Mexico selling small Korean cars and the French carmakers have arrived...-, they produce oil and sell it to the US at preferential price but have to import the gas at highest price as they have not refineries, and I can multiply the examples.

It's a consequence of imperialism as French did and do in Africa and English did in India. Just geopolitics. Economical imperialism is to buy cheaply primary goods and labor and to sell expensively manufactured goods and services.

So I was half joking with that. But the the actual Narco almost war (9000 dead...) fueled by the US demand of drugs is not a joke...

I have NOTHING against American people, as I have nothing against any people, I do not care of race, religion, nationality, sexual preferences or other, but I'm suspicious of US imperialism as of any imperialism.

To come back to the Rotoplas tubing, it's having a great success because it's high quality stuff at good price. It's becoming a norm for condos.
PVC has a rather good bond with epoxy.

[mark775]

I agree completely... epoxy bonds well to PVC.