Bedini motor and other joe cell playing with energy conservation

[kistinie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_21KafrwRc&feature=related
This is nice...but not revolutionary, just a replacement of fuel by metals


But here starts much stranger effects...
Among pioneers Yull Brown with a gas production that seems to be based on an energy not controlled by actual law of conservation of energy ...Each word is important !
In other words, actual laws of thermodynamics could be imperfect

Bedini motor uses back EMF in a simple way

An imperfect formula or principle...Not new in science, just new for our actual knowledge


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZh7TiQ1eEE&feature=fvsr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zihvon92knE&feature=related

http://pesn.com/2006/04/13/9600257_Bill_Williams_threatened/
http://www.energenx.com/john34/foreward.html
http://www.moe-joe-working.com/

Shall we burn these devils or study more about it ?

[mydauphin]

Waste of time.... Area 51 also has Alien perpetual galactic powered outboard 2000hp -run for ever, and are the size of watermelon. They also clean the air, produce clean water and even manatee safe...

[kistinie]

Oh ! You have matches !

I"m a good believer, pay my taxes
i trust diesel and unleaded only
Cubic inches, save my lost soul.

You may be right, but i'm afraid that, to answer the questions these experiment show, this won't be sufficient

[apex1]

How many idiotic and crappy posts will you start here with your nonsense? And you trust Diesel? Why did you remove em from your boat?

[kistinie]

All new revolutionary inventions have been virulently criticised.
The fact that it is virulently criticised doesn't mean these are great inventions

idiotic, crappy, nonsense...

Do you think that writing these kind of statements, you will bring anything constructive to the question and to this forum ?

[Boston]

I like new and innovative ideas and so Im all for people experimenting with new things
but in that first video some red flags came up that I feel kinda brought into question the credibility of the demonstration

1) what is the secret electrolyte and why not just clue us in as to what it is
2) what is the secret metal compound and again why not just clue us in
3) why are we not allowed the information needed to test the system for ourselves, those bubbles could be anything

if we knew what the chemical process was then we could run a few simple calculations and if things all work out
then all the criticism would be nipped in the but

anytime some one comes in and says that our present level of science fails to explain a certain event
I get suspicious

our present level of science is got a long way to go
but it is dam good at explaining commonly observed phenomena

chemistry is easily understood and if a researcher cops out on an explanation without even trying to bring us up to the point were science fails
then why are we to believe science failed and not the researcher
which is far more likely

that is why these type of new ideas get criticized and not because they have or have not merit
when what they need is better presentation

if you have an idea
wright a paper and submit it to a peer review panel
if they ask for a defense
give it to em
get published or not and go from there
the basic garage inventor fails miserably in this area and so
finds himself subject to criticism that could have been avoided

my two cents
B

[kistinie]

Inventor fail often because of the imperfect invention, i share your opinion, but not always and many inventors, at the origin of things we use now died poor

For the water car it is this principle i guess
http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

About joe cell this is water and the slow convection movement going across 316 SS is not explained to me and anyone else i guess

Bedini uses back EMF.
Many new patent use back EMF for propulsion, this is clearly an interesting direction to go to get very high efficencies

Now we must never forget that the existing business of energy could loose billions the day a replacement energy will be available, do you think they will wait for this moment arm crossed ?
We run ICE engine the same way than 100 years ago...My 1956 TR3 does only 20% less mpg than a recent car, my 1960 MKI mini does same mpg . I can't technically understand why it didn't changed more...

Look at radio, tv, space, chemistry of 1950 and compare with now.

There is a kind of ICE/energy exception to progress...very strange ;-)
In philosophy this is called the power of the existing thing that tend to kill all new ideas to protect itself
And transport is power, huge power.
When Henry Ford supported Hitler for years , it was not for progress of mankind and to free the minds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~rgibson/fordnazis.html


In fact it seems that rejection is a common position for transport inventions
Think of Guy Mochet in 1933 that saw his recumbent bike forbidden (and always now) for competitor after he won world record of 1 hour distance race...
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/fastest_bike_in.html

Recumbent bike is 1907 ...
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/fastest_bike_in.html

[Boston]

Tesla died broke

[kerosene]

aluminum has nothing to do with joe cell.

Aluminum hasn't been mentioned in HHO business until recently. I do believe that using aluminum actually works and is being studied seriously. It is worth noting however that aluminum is used as a fuel in a sense - it wears down. And if you know how much energy you need to mine fresh aluminum (not recycled) it comes as no surprise that a lot of energy can be recovered by ruining it.

Point is its is not energy appearing from nowhere (like joe cell) but a known reaction where aluminum oxidizes.

In my other posts in other threads when I used "free" I didn't mean it in money sense. But in the sense of physics - anodizing aluminum to create hydrogen is not hydrogen for free. Joe cell creating hydrogen with minimal dc currents is "free" energy.

H

from the aluminum link you provided:

"Woodall said that because the technology makes it possible to use hydrogen instead of gasoline to run internal combustion engines it could be used for cars and trucks. In order for the technology to be economically competitive with gasoline, however, the cost of recycling aluminum oxide must be reduced, he said.

"Right now it costs more than $1 a pound to buy aluminum, and, at that price, you can't deliver a product at the equivalent of $3 per gallon of gasoline," Woodall said.

However, the cost of aluminum could be reduced by recycling it from the alumina using a process called fused salt electrolysis. The aluminum could be produced at competitive prices if the recycling process were carried out with electricity generated by a nuclear power plant or windmills."

[apex1]

And if you know how much energy you need to mine fresh aluminum (not recycled) it comes as no surprise that a lot of energy can be recovered by ruining it.



But in this context it is a surprise that you claim to be a mature person.

[kerosene]

Apex - I didn't get it. Was that aimed at me? if so please elaborate.

[apex1]

Sorry Kerosene, how is it related, the energy to produce aluminium and the energy one may get out of it (which way so ever)?

[kerosene]

Sorry Kerosene, how is it related, the energy to produce aluminium and the energy one may get out of it (which way so ever)?

Aluminum is found in nature in the form of aluminum oxide - or alumina. It takes huge amounts of energy to create aluminum from this oxide - and it is done by electrolysis.

It seems to me that the process where they use aluminum to create hydrogen sacrifices the aluminum back to alumina (or aluminum oxide).

Ie. in creation of aluminum you input energy to get into higher energy state material - and in taking energy from aluminum you return it to the lower energy state.

Think of it as burning and un-burning. When aluminum is mined it is "un-burned" and burned again to create hydrogen. Same way I believe that you can use energy and split carbon dioxide to carbon and oxygen. Then you could burn it again. Obviously it would be terribly inefficient.

I will try to find a good link to aluminum processing.


by the way - never claimed to be a mature person. :P

[kistinie]

Aluminium looks like a smart way to get H2 , 'on demand', cutting the cost of compression, stock and transport.

But this is rather conventional physics behind

Joe cell effects, specially the convection going across steel is a real mystery as i do not know what kind of physics effect could create such slow moving field.
A field of something is turning, doing like vortex, at slow speed ?
Really strange.
Any lights about this ?

This video speaks more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLgtl2p5KM&feature=related

[mydauphin]

It takes massive powerplants to produce Aluminum from Bauxite. Bauxites are heated in pressure vessels with sodium hydroxide solution at 150–200 °C through which aluminium is dissolved as aluminate (Bayer process). After separation of ferruginous residue (red mud) by filtering, pure gibbsite is precipitated when the liquor is cooled and seeded with fine grained aluminium hydroxide. Gibbsite is converted into aluminium oxide by heating. This is molten at approx. 1000 °C by addition of cryolite as a flux and reduced to metallic aluminium by a highly energy-consumptive electrolytic process (the Hall-Héroult process).

When Aluminum corrodes, become Aluminum oxide and it produces enough electricity to power a light bulb, like a battery. Not very efficient conversion. I know this personally my wife work for ACR electronics that made aluminum batteries that used sea water as electrolyte for emergency lighting on boats and rafts.

Also US does not have any AL. Mainly Australia and area around tropics.

Aluminum is good for building boats, planes and soda cans. Not a good source for fuel.... No in this universe... How about the blackholes in center of galaxy...

[apex1]

Thank you mydauphin for this valuable explanation.

And thank you kerosene that you will provide a link! I have built boats out of it, so I know a little about that material already.
What I did not know is, that the energy spent to produce Aluminium is stored in the metal and can be recycled to propel a boat!
A very interesting (unfortunately a very childish and in terms of physics wrong) theory.

[kerosene]

I didn't say - or mean to say anyway - that all energy used in mining could be recovered. What I am saying that it is no surprise that you can recover energy from turning Al to Al-oxides. And that everyone should understand that this is not feasible or "free" energy.

You seem to through away insults more than anything Apex - that really makes it hard to understand what your point is and who you are addressing.

My point in short is - wasting aluminum in hydrogen production seems pointless considering how much energy is spent in getting that said aluminum in the 1st place.

As the article talking about aluminum in hydrogen stated it pretty clearly:

"However, the cost of aluminum could be reduced by recycling it from the alumina using a process called fused salt electrolysis. The aluminum could be produced at competitive prices if the recycling process were carried out with electricity generated by a nuclear power plant or windmills."

ie. when you use aluminum to create hydrogen you need to use elctrolysis (powered by something else) to recover said aluminum.

[apex1]

You´re right kerosene in addressing alu as one of the greatest energy consumers (destroyers), but we have no substitution at present.
I understood your statement above as if you would say the energy spent equals the energy we can get out of it. You should edit that post to be understood better. Yes I have no problem to call a Idiot by his name you´re right, but that I spread insults more than anything, definetily is a wrong statement, this forum can widely tell you the opposite! It´s Kistinie and his fairy tales crap that brings me on edge.
Regards
Richard
and this addition was worth to be noticed, I agree!:
"My point in short is - wasting aluminum in hydrogen production seems pointless considering how much energy is spent in getting that said aluminum in the 1st place."

[kerosene]

all right - I added "all" in bold to my previous post.

I am sure you have provided useful input in other threads - I only remember your posts from these HHO - magic hydrogen ones. Lets try fresh - I apologize for blaming you from being all name calling.

And to be honest I think we are on the same side of the argument - most of the hydrogen talk is optimistic at best - and clear scams at worst.

The fools are in between - the ones who believe the scams in good faith but don't understand the problems in basic premise.

I have seen many people explain how one can run a car with 20Amp 12vdc powered electrolysis pot (joe cell) but also explain that it is not perpetual motion machine as the joe cell needs that electricity.
If one cannot understand that using 240w power to create energy to drive 50kw (or more) engine is against physics then education has failed.

BUT I don't think calling people by names is productive either- better to try to explain the reasons why this is not possible - at least confused bystanders will understand why its nonsense.

[apex1]

You´re right it is´nt productive to call them by names, and I did not mean to be productive. This chap is nerving the Forum with his unmature ideas and statements of energy for free and similar crap since month. I contributed in a severe and polite manner to some of his former threads, he did not even read the articles he was lead to, but argued that we did provide critics only and nothing constructive.
How can one be constructive if he is told that all he does is only to make a fortune overnight and to destroy the environment. And the like.
Sorry that my harsh way of reply to Kistines posts did insult you, that was not meant this way.
And as a addition: I found a old post that sometimes should be brought up to remember (for me as well, I know)! see:

But, Mike, what do you (and all of us) win with that? What positive thing does that attitude bring to these forums? Getting everybody angry with everybody? Is that what all of us expect?
You yourself said in other thread that it is not possible to change people, so, even if we think someone is stupid, are we going to change him/her by being rude? No, most people will react and then be rude on their side towards the offending person. So there we go in an spiral of real stupidity, that contributes nothing to the final reason of these forums.
On my side, I'm not here to come into 'tavern' discussions, but to learn (a lot) and contribute with my bit of knowledge when I can. If I want tavern discussions I go to the tavern, not here.
I've tried to follow this pattern myself, although I recognise that a couple of times I felt obliged to respond, because things were coming to a limit I felt something had to be done. I've found that some of the 'profesional' offenders here try to make themselves bigger by pissing others off the forums. And I'm not available to that, because I appreciate very much what we have here (thanks, Jeff), as I learn much more than I contribute. And for sure I learn nothing from permanent insults, posts without content, bad temper and tavern like discussions.
And now is good to see that Jeff has come into action and put some basic rules to avoid these forums keeping in the undesirable mood they were last times. That's going to bring back again things into a reasonable level of conversation and all of us will benefit from that and keep on learning a lot.
All the best.

[mydauphin]

There is a group of bizarre people here that wish the universe was different than it is. They wish boats could fly by anti-gravity using multi-dimensional wornholes. Some free energy believers are also anti-establishment and are trying to make political statements. This forum is for people to learn and share information about boats and ship building, design and cruising... not science fiction.

I love sci-fi, I love weird science, I love cutting edge...
But we live in planet earth - tell me no lies or bullshit or you will get a fight....

[Boston]

aluminum is a horrible choice as a fuel source
the embodied energy of aluminum being one of the highest of any metal

http://www.tececo.com/images/graphics/other/EmbodiedEnergyBuildingMaterials.gif

now I know why the flicker did not mention the type of metal being used
they are trying to present themselves as being environmentally responsible and presenting an alternative and superior fuel source

if the process described above is being used by anybody thinking they are doing the world a favor
they are dead wrong

http://www.yourbuilding.org/download/attachments/7635060/Energy%20figure%2017.jpg

http://thenauhaus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/pei_co2_building.jpg

I would urge all of you to please consider the whole system when choosing not only a fuel but a material to derive that fuel from

http://www.hardwood.timber.net.au/environment/images/img0196.jpg

http://www.hdg-online.net/uploads/pics/table2.jpg

as for availability we need to also consider a simple reality

Based on a recent United States Geological Study, Lester Brown informs us that we will exhaust known stores of several vital metals within the next two to three generations, based on a reasonable estimation of 2% growth in extraction.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jbSJOXmWmqo/RzeGgGT7SiI/AAAAAAAAAIs/8485TJ5HToU/s400/metals.jpg


while there are various ways to measure embodied energy

Definitions of Embodied energy on the Web:

Embodied energy refers to the quantity of energy required to manufacture, and supply to the point of use, a product, material or service. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy

How much energy was required to extract, process, package, transport, install, and recycle or dispose of materials that make up a building’s ...
www.cdc.gov/healthyplaces/terminology.htm

the total amount of energy used in the extraction of raw materials the manufacture of the product and finally the transporting of product to where it is used
www.stepin.org/glossary.php

The energy used during the entire life cycle of a commodity ie manufacture, transportation and disposal.
www.esd.rgs.org/glossarypopup.html

The sum total of the energy necessary - from raw material extraction, transport, manufacturing, assembly, installation plus the capital, environmental and other costs - used to produce a service or product from its beginning through its disassembly, deconstruction and/or decompostion.
www.oikos.com/library/green_building_glossary.html

Amount of energy consumed in the extraction, manufacture, transport, construction and assembly on site of building materials. It will also include the energy costs of disposal of waste or surplus materials.
www.sdg-nottinghamshire.org.uk/index/appendixiiii.htm

All of the energy invested in bringing a material to its final product, including transportation.
www.reddawn.com/glossary.html

that energy bound up in a material as a result of factors such as extraction, processing and manufacture.
www.deai.ie/glossary-of-BER-terms.html


it is not a mater or debate as the the extremely high cost of aluminum

as a fuel source
aluminum is second only to petroleum in its potential to destroy the environment
any fuel system that consumes aluminum as a mater of coarse
is not a viable replacement to fossil fuels
no mater what the good intentions of the inventor may have been

[apex1]

Kistinie:
I have pulled out my Yanmar Diesel (too heavy), now I am seeking for a electric propulsion of equal performance, help.

Forum reply:
not possible

Kistinie:

I can produce electricity on my 2,5 ton multihull by PV or windmill or by prop in reverse cycle! Very cheap and efficient.

Forum reply:
no, you must not forget battery, inverter, controller and the like!

Kistinie:

How to make a cheap diesel generator?

Forum reply:

buy one

Kistinie:

but with water injection to the exhaust i can run a diesel genny at half the cost and double the output!

Forum reply:

no, that is not possible, you destroy the manifold in hours by injecting saltwater.

Kistinie:

I do´nt like you... you do´nt contribute to my alternative thoughts.


My reply:

Idiot

[kistinie]

"A lie told often enough becomes accepted truth." : Vladimir Lenin
Is this the reason of your repetitions ?

When you "quote" me, please avoid inventions, i never complained about the fact you like me or not.
Ideas counts in a debate, not individuals.
Therefore, you contribute to my ideas, as you give me all the bullets to kill your corrupted devices.


Hybrid electric propulsion will be less expensive than ICE as to make the full device you need less part, less work.
Lowering higher actual price is only a question of industrialisation, of mass production.
Oil will still be used, but on a sailing boat, only a third will be needed for the same service.

About water injection in exhaust that is bringing a part of the power gain water is recycled in the exhaust (Renault patent 2005) and the first Peugeot and renault V6 engines (idiot manufacturers ?) will be equipped by the end of the year :P ...on production cars !!!

Water will also be steamed by exhaust heat and injected to the inlet on some renault production engines exploiting the pantone principle. (But will not be named pantone !)
Officially they say that this recycling of water is for easy use, but the true reason is only marketing and psychological, as it would make user understand an ICE runs better with water added at all the combustion stages.

For easy marine applications you can use a water cooled manifold connected to a close circuit
http://www.atkinsrotarymarine.com/index.php?pag=2

For fresh water use, direct injection is fine
On heavy boats water can be also taken from drinking water tanks.

Please return on earth, world is moving, all this is nothing new, water injection works well whatever the way you use it ...By the way did you remember Messerschmitt Bf 109 running on methanol and water ?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/me-109.htm

Only new for civil applications in fact :-)


About an hybrid group going on electricity, veg oil + propane / hydrogen for propulsion and generation, light and affordable.
The product i have designed seems to be liked by many designers, i will open a new thread to present it.
I guess the word co generation is a mystery to you ?
The time when heat of engine was lost is almost over.
Heat does electricity or cold, and without belts, compressor and all these expensive and heavy add on groups just like now
Please take a look, if you can, to a modern army co-generator


The power of democracy is that you can't burn directly the idiots any more, you need to be smart and hide !

------

Aluminium final efficiency or total overall cost isn't as good as petrol.
And after ? Only cost counts ?

Aluminium doesn't kill seal life like fuel when boat leaks or sink... Erika ? Remember ?
Aluminium doesn't smell a cancerous odour inside and around my boat
Aluminium is stable more than 4 months (petrol is given stable for 4 months only)
Hydrogen doesn't pollute.


So it is certainly not the best solution but AL can have a real interest for marine applications


---------

Now this was the easy part of this thread ;-)


What about this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLgtl2p5KM&feature=related

What is happening here ?
What is this movement going across the 316L steel tubes ?

[mudman]

Read the comments on that video that you just posted. It will explain alot.

[kistinie]

All kind of comments ! how do i do my selection ?
Saying baaaahhh is not enough

Can you be more factual and technical ?
I accept it can be junk science but i want evidences

In France i have worked with an university for this in Nice
the name is ZETETIQUE
The aim is to do the distinction between real an junk science.


Thanks !

[Boston]

its no big deal to mix a few chemicals and get a convection loop going during a reaction
its not anything new

chemicals will not save us from the present environmental disaster
what will is an immediate reduction in population
or an immediate reduction in eating
take your pick
cause were fast running out of fish and farmland
that and the apple grown down the street was shipped round the world a few times before it gets to the market also just down the street is going to be whats the end of us

not some crackpot free fuel that we can use to ship that apple round the planet a few more time with before it ends up where it started

thing is fuel isnt free no mater what source it comes from
even Tesla abandoned his research on drawing energy from the Shoeman gap for a reason everyone loves to ignore.

its simple reality
if you want to solve some of the worlds issues there is only one way about it
reduce the population

inventing "free" energy is about as helpful as chasing windmills
Don Quixote style

[kistinie]

We have destroyed our earth...this is a reality.

But how do you think it is technically possible to get this convection movement across s steel ?
Sorry but i do not get it

I never spoke of free energy but of TOC.
Solar panel TOC is mainly...the price you buy it
My CITROEN ZX turbo diesel TOC is the incredible low € price i bought it and the 4.5 litre i give for 100Km plus a few things like tires, oil and insurance.
My trimaran TOC is ...hell !!!

Some solutions give much lower TOC than others

My idea is to bust the best technical solution, and why not play with new solutions.
The dark energy and dark matter is an open door to something new.

joe cell or back EMF from Bedini, i do not care if it is an open door to something new and interesting.
To be more precise, i do not see why we wouldn't find a way to demonstrate the dark matter anomaly on earth.

Nothing more behind this subject.

I am ,not an illuminated, Spinoza and René Descartes remains my favourite masters !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes

[apex1]

I am ,not an illuminated,

The first proper statement you made! Thank you for that.

[kistinie]

Aaahhh !
APEX !

Stop playing on words and answer the question about this video
What is the trick ?

[apex1]

Have no idea what you´re talking about. Video? Trick?

[kistinie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLgt...eature=related

Thanks !

[Boston]

But how do you think it is technically possible to get this convection movement across s steel ?
Sorry but i do not get it

its a simple convection loop
either an endothermic reaction or a exothermic reaction will cause such an effect
even if there is no chemical reaction there is no difficulty in convection occurring as any temperature variation within a given fluid system will result in some convection currents forming


i do not see why we wouldn't find a way to demonstrate the dark matter anomaly on earth.

There is no mythical dark mater
Einstein's secret that no one wanted to talk about was that shortly after he dreamed up relativity he then went on to say
oops
thats not right
and spent the next thirty years working out the field equations to prove it

Dark mater is a construct of the Theory of relativity. It is required to create a stable state of cyclical big bangs theorized by modern cosmology. As of yet no exotic mater has been found that would explain the presumed expansion of the universe and big bang theory has yet to make any accurate predictions. The Red shift is extremely dubious in its consistency and the Hubble unlta deep field clearly show the universe to be ( at least according to red shift believers ) far older than once thought

science has a long way to go
there is no viable argument to support the existence of dark mater as the electric universe theory ( although not widely accepted ) is a perfectly good and well understood energy source capable of exerting forces far greater than the gravitational

electric universe theory basically states that there is an electrical component to the universe that has not been accounted for by Newton or Einstein and that the force is visually evident in the form of Behrkland strand like structures in galactic nebulous clouds

it was invented by some crack pot who believed that Mars got electrocuted to death by a metallic comet that carried a charge potential from the outer solar system to the inner solar system

in his theory the sun has a metallic surface and the comets are nickel iron
one of which passed at some critical distance to mars and suddenly discharged to the planet destroying its magnetic field and so all life on the planet

in evidence I would present comet Holmes which recently passed through the solar system
it flared dramatically in a manner typical of comets but inexplicable by modern cometary theory

the flair was predicted by the electric universe people

in the end some elements of a theory can be correct
but chances are others are completely off

dark mater being one of them

B

[apex1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLgt...eature=related

Thanks !

No, first: I would never waste my time opening a link you provide, second: even if, Youtube is banned in Turkey where I am.

[kistinie]

No, first: I would never waste my time opening a link you provide, second: even if, Youtube is banned in Turkey where I am.

LOL !!!!
It's your choice ! To live and make your living in a democratic country !

[kistinie]

About convection loop...no i do not think this fits the video.

You are going across steel !

For the rest, your post takes my english and my brain to a hard stress !
I need time to understand and think about what you said...just hope it is not incoherence to make me a big joke ;)
Thanks for your answer !

[Boston]

my french is not very good but I can try to translate it into french when I get a chance

the point is
that although many theories have some merit
most lack in continuity and so although the bits and pieces may to some degree make sense
the overall concept can still be off

[apex1]

LOL !!!!
It's your choice ! To live and make your living in a democratic country !

You´re right on the spot, it is my choice! And I neither make my living here nor do I live here.

[kistinie]

http://jalopnik.com/5223488/worldfirst-ecof3-a-chocolate+powered-sustainable-race-car
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212228365.shtml

Motors and energy oil business is invaded by less and less serious fellows ;)

[kistinie]

This one respects known physics, but propulsion principle is very far from being catholic !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1

[mydauphin]

It uses a magnetohydrodynamic drive, driven by a liquid helium-cooled superconductor, and can travel at 15 km/h (8 knots). Looks like a starship, travels at hull speed, may be puts out 5hp, cost $5 million. Sounds like something someone would buy. Oh if I remember correctly from article of that time period, it never made it past 5 knots...

[M-Sasha]

It uses a magnetohydrodynamic drive, driven by a liquid helium-cooled superconductor, and can travel at 15 km/h (8 knots). Looks like a starship, travels at hull speed, may be puts out 5hp, cost $5 million. Sounds like something someone would buy. Oh if I remember correctly from article of that time period, it never made it past 5 knots...

But past five morons to follow the idea, i am shure.

Does anyone (except a few like mydauphin and Richard) bear in mind that the whole thread is driven by Kistinie?
Snakeoil providers with (non boat related), idiotic or unproven theories?

Contributing here is like teaching a three years old the theory of eternity.

Sasha

[mydauphin]

But past five morons to follow the idea, i am shure.

Does anyone (except a few like mydauphin and Richard) bear in mind that the whole thread is driven by Kistinie?
Snakeoil providers with (non boat related), idiotic or unproven theories?

Contributing here is like teaching a three years old the theory of eternity.

Sasha

I know Sasha, I trying to keep them from fooling others into their crazy plan. I would hate someone to spend possibly $100s of thousand on a "State of the Art" boat that when they get a mile out becomes a death trap.

These people are not just snake oil salesman but in the boating world a deadly menace. It is like if I where to tell you, don't wear life preservers, don't take reserve fuel, don't worry if you don't have an anchor, oh and by the way run some high voltage cables in your bilge.

[apex1]

Contributing here is like teaching a three years old the theory of eternity.

Sasha

You are wrong Alex......................

I , with ease, can tell a three years old child the theories of the whole universe.
The question is: does it understand?
Contributing here is like the response of a three years old to those theories!?:D

I love you Sasha

[kistinie]

Los Alamos National Laboratory theory is that in galaxies energy are converted and concentrated, including gravity fields turned to magnetic fields. A gravitational field is called free force and free energy.

Free ...:P ...2004 sample:

We suggest an unconventional view of the origin of most cosmic rays (CRs) in the universe. We propose that nearly every accelerated CR was part of the parallel current that maintains all force-free (f-f) magnetic fields. Charged particles are accelerated by the electric field http://www.em-consulte.com/showarticlefile/25572/F1.GIF produced by reconnection parallel to the magnetic field http://www.em-consulte.com/showarticlefile/25572/F2.GIF . The inferred total energy in extragalactic cosmic rays is http://www.em-consulte.com/showarticlefile/25572/F3.GIF ergs per galaxy spacing volume, provided that the assumed acceleration mechanisms do not preferentially only accelerate ultra high energy cosmic rays (UHECRs). This total energy is quite large, about http://www.em-consulte.com/showarticlefile/25572/F4.GIF times the parent galactic CR or magnetic energy. We argue that the formation energy of supermassive black holes (SMBHs) at galaxy centers, http://www.em-consulte.com/showarticlefile/25572/F5.GIF ergs, becomes the only feasible source. We propose an efficient dynamo process which converts gravitational free energy into magnetic energy in an accretion disk around a SMBH. Aided by Keplerian winding, this dynamo converts a poloidal seed field into f-f fields, which are transported into the general intergalactic medium (IGM) eventually. This magnetic energy must also have been efficiently converted into particle energies, as evidenced by the radiation from energetic particles. In this view CRs of the IGM are the result of the continuing dissipation, in a Hubble time, of this free energy, by acceleration in situ within the f-f fields confined within the super-galactic walls and filaments of large scale structures. In addition, UHECRs are diffusively lost to the galactic voids at time scales below the GZK attenuation time, http://www.em-consulte.com/showarticlefile/25572/F6.GIF years. Similarly, within the galaxy we expect that the winding by the disk rotation of the galaxy, by the rotation energy of magnetized neutron stars, and by the Keplerian winding of star formation disks are efficient sources of f-f magnetic field energy and hence the sources of galactic CR acceleration.
Source:S.A. Colgate, H. Li, C. R. Physique 5




By chance here on earth we are not part of the universe and galaxies but only dependant of APEX1 laws of fuel combustion,

APEX, do something ! Even in national research labs idiots kids go for idiot non sense theories on free things

Nothing is free, even love...in german eros center :D

Cheers !

[mydauphin]

Apex, Kristine, Sasha, let's open a thread on quantum physics, dark matter, anti-matter, string theory, free energy etc. May be we need a whole forum and when these geniuses invent a boat powered by a singularity I will buy one so I don't have pay the evil oil companies. We will probably have to pay the evil dark matter companies. oh well nothing changes....
Hey Apex, can I collect my evil oil company PR check this month - I kind of need it...

[kistinie]

pandora's box :p

[mudman]

Extragalactic cosmic rays, poloidal seed field, general intergalactic medium, super massive black holes. HAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaa HAAAAAAaaaaa..............BWAAAHHAAAAAHHAAAHHHAAAa.

Launch the photon torpedos.

Super massive black holes to run a boat........ That's some funny stuff.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAA.

Beam me up Scotty........... Warp speed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kistinie]

i always felt that under the mud was hidden true visionary sailors

For at least 10 centuries mankind dreamed of the stars
In 1969 everyone could see we started to climb
Humans and life in general always evolutes.
Humans dreams and try hard to make their dreams come true
It is often a question of time and work before it impacts your life
See what happened to the Jules VERNES stories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne

Marie CURIE is old now, time has come for the next generation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie

to be honest i think that the new Marie CURIE is not a girl or a boy, but groups of workers that internet made possible.
I think that collective, wild scale common search of solutions is increasing the statistical event to find true innovations as well as shorter the time to make it work.



To sort the ideas and results presented we need a tool box.

the greek ZETETIC ((zêtein = search in greek) is dedicated to this logical approach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_skepticism
http://www.unice.fr/zetetique/anglais/a_zetetique.html

I would appreciate if we all could look at the subject of "new energy" , mainly this way...Jokes allowed too, if not compulsory;) as it is a good way of getting reed of barriers.

[apex1]

Apex, Kristine, Sasha, let's open a thread on quantum physics, dark matter, anti-matter, string theory, free energy etc. May be we need a whole forum and when these geniuses invent a boat powered by a singularity I will buy one so I don't have pay the evil oil companies. We will probably have to pay the evil dark matter companies. oh well nothing changes....
Hey Apex, can I collect my evil oil company PR check this month - I kind of need it...

Please do´nt call my name in a context with Kistinie!
And why are you bringing me always in a relation with "evil oil company" ?:?:

[kistinie]

Please do´nt call my name in a context with Kistinie!
And why are you bringing me always in a relation with "evil oil company" ?:?:

Why ?

Because :P

[mydauphin]

Apex, I thought you and I both worked for evil oil company.... We think diesels perform better that electric battery power. :D

[mydauphin]

Marie CURIE is old now, time has come for the next generation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie

to be honest i think that the new Marie CURIE is not a girl or a boy, but groups of workers that internet made possible.
I think that collective, wild scale common search of solutions is increasing the statistical event to find true innovations as well as shorter the time to make it work.


.

Marie Curie is dead..
Death
Only a couple of months later, Skłodowska-Curie died. Her death on July 4, 1934, at the Sancellemoz Sanatorium in Passy, in Haute-Savoie, eastern France, was from aplastic anemia, almost certainly contracted from exposure to radiation. The damaging effects of ionizing radiation were then not yet known, and much of her work had been carried out in a shed without any safety measures. She had carried test tubes containing radioactive isotopes in her pocket and stored them in her desk drawer, remarking on the pretty blue-green light that the substances gave off in the dark.[citation needed]
She was interred at the cemetery in Sceaux, alongside her husband Pierre. Sixty years later, in 1995, in honor of their achievements, the remains of both were transferred to the Paris Panthéon. She became the first woman so honored.
Her laboratory is preserved at the Musée Curie.
Due to their levels of radioactivity, her papers from the 1890s (and even her cookbook) are considered too dangerous to handle. They are kept in lead-lined boxes; those who wish to consult them must wear protective clothing.[32]


So be careful what you experiment with or your black hole powered ship may slip to another dimension...

[kistinie]

Perfectly right, i already knew about Marie, so i'm not too sad.

Manipulation of energy is dangerous
Even fluo-compact bulbs and cell phone bring suspicious mind.

as soon as i detect any gravity field or time distortion around my stern, i stop and call 911.

To come back on subject, this could be a true big drawback of playing with free energy fields
Lets say that for the moment, i accept this risk

[mydauphin]

Many years ago, I had an idea to wrap a boat in wire and turn it into giant electromagnet. Then boat could be made to go up or down magnetic field by reversing current. All I need is a lot of wire and a big generator. I figured I could do about 1 knot. I am now famous and fabulously wealthy, not.

Then I figured how to make a thermonuclear powered boat. I had one for many years, it did about 8 knots. But I got tired of having bring down sails to dock, anchor and sometimes the wind was going totally wrong. Beside Chris Columbus sailed the ocean blue in one of these.

So then I got a primevally powered biofuel boat. it was fast but that biofuel can get expensive and I forget that I needed to refill all the time and even had ask for a tow.

So then I graduated to less explosive biofuels. More economical, slower. Fewer problems. Bigger propellers

So the point is... There are two types of boats, Sail and engine powered.
In the engine powered there are two, slow and fast.

Your trying to invent a third the Sci-fi Boat.
So buy a sailboat, put a solar panel, a windmill, watermaker, generator and diesel and go cursing.

[kistinie]

About your magnetic wire boat, great idea with supra conductors that would do closer to 10 like the yamato
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1

i understand you had hard time trying all this imperfect solution as it was the start.
But time now are much more easier as the order is changing, old industry less powerful, and technologies much more mature.
All conditions for a success are here.

i already have the sailing boat with all the accessories ...even an iridium for fat days , the rest is on the way, give me your email in pm i will send you the press book of my project
Kind regards

[apex1]

Apex, I thought you and I both worked for evil oil company.... We think diesels perform better that electric battery power. :D

Lets say we feed them. And we know why we still do so, we may not enjoy it though.

To come back on subject, this could be a true big drawback of playing with free energy fields


There is NO subject here one could come back to!


i will send you the press book of my project

Do they release press bulletins in a madhouse?

[kistinie]

Do they release press bulletins in a madhouse?


Yes of course !
Make us fell much better
You should try !

We also have many friends and beautiful sexy girls to take care of us

To come back on subject that do not exist, the first experiments show results worth considering but these results are unstable and reproduction not automatic (And cannot be explained by incertitude of measures)
By more rigorous differentiations of modifications (one technical modification by one modification) we should get more precise infos

The only repeated result is increased torque at a lower than normal Rpm range. In other word engine rev smoothly with heavy loads under its normal low rpm limit in our case under 1000Rpm for 2 diesel redlined 4800 and 5000. It is always better than nothing. GPH gain are not obtained in a sufficient way on all the power range to get hard conclusions

[mydauphin]

Kistinie,
Do they still teach, physics, thermodynamics, chemistry, economics, the scientific method, honesty in research in school.
Or do they preach global warning, government controlled markets, incorrect methodology, weirdo science and just building things that don't work.
Can you describe to me your boating experience. Do you realize the amount of energy consumed by simply getting a small boat and going a few miles in the bay. The reason internal combustion engine works is because of the large amounts of energy trapped in the fuel. Hydrogen is simply are inefficient for boat because of its low heat content. A nuclear (fission boat) would be great, the only problem is radiation and the occasional terrorist that wants to kill everyone with it. Apart from that I dont know of anything more a efficient than a slow turning Diesel with a big propeller.... Oh may be a sailboat...

[kistinie]

Very good question
World is not that black or white
Rather grey as...the dust from our IC engines
Global warming and incorrect methodology are preached in school with sciences


About energy to move a boat, it can be nothing if you go slowly or use the elements force like a sailing boat does.

Sebastien with his cat, BABOUCHE, went across the ice without a nuclear propulsion boat
http://www.babouche-expe.eu/bateau.html

The force you can beat, love it, avoid it, play with it but do not fight it

A light clever boat can use any kind of power to move with style.
Weight is the enemy
Some doubt ? Look at this and think to Biefeld-Brown effect:
http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/

ICE can be assisted by other technologies to make it more efficient.
A joe cell does this
H² or any other gas injection does this
Parametric conversion does this for electric motors recovering the back EMF (Bedini principle too)
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraintr.htm


We cannot live the same way we do today without petrol
And we will have to learn how to, as petrol won't learn how to regenerate itself and refill (although i read somewhere some guys believed it was the case in some places where level was not going down !)
For high power alternative, water and conversion of free forces like gravitation and cosmic energy into magnetic fields can be worth searching.


Now think about this :

All mythbusters avoid the joe cell in their test (including French ZETETIQUE Nice university)


Why ?

And while we fill up our diesel tank running prehistoric engines some idiots keep playing with nonsense ideas

The European Space Agency announced the results of an experimental test in which a superconductor rotating at 6,500 rpm is shown to gain acceleration as the result of what is believed to be a gravity-modification effect.
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/03/prweb364473.htm

The Searl Effect was discovered by John Roy Robert Searl in 1946.
Put simply, it is a method of extracting clean and sustainable electrical energy.
http://www.searlsolution.com/members/technology6.html

[kistinie]

Proell Effect is another patent playing with the second law of thermodynamic

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6698200.html
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/academy/CarnotExcedence/index.html


Overview

The Second Law of Thermodynamics (2LT) has never been proven to be universal, that heat transformations must always go "downhill" or create entropy. The presumed universality of the 2LT is based upon a statistical truth, a description of particle collisions based upon the kinetic theory of heat (KTH). Not all particle collisions need be random. When a series of particle collisions has a net motion in any direction, it is called work, such as when a gas moves a piston. Piston motion need not be present for work to occur. Heat is transferred from a low temperature via particle collisions to a higher temperature without energy input, relying just upon elastic collisions according to the KTH, with work as the transfer medium, when a gas is displaced through a regenerator under constant volume conditions; this is the Proell effect. The patented engine cycles apply this phenomenon. In constant volume displacement cooling, part of the engine is refrigerated without work input, and this internal heat sink is used to advantage. The waste heat flows of the engine fall into this sink and are recycled to the high temperature of the engine in the next cycle. Depending on how the displacement and regeneration are done, either partial or complete recycling is accomplished. Carnot's Theorem, the mathematical equation of theoretical maximum engine efficiency determined by a ratio of the highest and lowest absolute temperatures of an engine, and based upon the statistical mechanics of the 2LT, is sidestepped, allowing higher engine efficiencies, and even the use of ambient heat as the heat input. The patent shows practical application in definitive cycles with some mechanical embodiment, and the mathematical proofs show the full thermodynamic analysis with state variables, enough to satisfy the most rigorous academic scrutiny.
-- Ken Rauen


And today as yesterday and tomorrow you will fill your tanks with oil
How many concept likes these shall we see before taking our fingers out

[TeddyDiver]

How many concept likes these shall we see before taking our fingers out
Ad infinitum :rolleyes:

[kerosene]

Kristinie - you can spend all your time in the pure energy systems website. I have some pretty cool ufo website links too - and meditation levitation too. All very credible...

You should read peswiki about companies that have released information of their "inventions" - you will see a few common factors.

1) retail product is just about to come to market (this can be updated every 6 months) many of them have been doing this for years. We are just about to release but we 1st need:
2)Funding. They all are asking funding in non conventional ways. Buy a dealership - pre-order. Whatnot.
3) if the company is over 5 years old (ie. they have actively been on peswiki for 5 years) they have been sued for fraud.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Fraud

any machine that creates H2 with with energy surplus is a fraud. There is no reason to believe otherwise unless they can explain where the energy comes from AND are reliably 3rd party tested.

If the guys machines worked why didn't they have them tested - would certainly help their business. Especially when they work in a business full of fraud.

[apex1]

Hybrid Corsair............................................................

and Iludium 232 space generator you have forgotten.

[kistinie]

Hybrid Corsair............................................................

and Iludium 232 space generator you have forgotten.

Cannot be perfect
Sorry.

[kistinie]

If the guys machines worked why didn't they have them tested - would certainly help their business. Especially when they work in a business full of fraud.

Good question

My hypothesis :

When it is really terrific, it is buried and kept for military use.
And with this level of technology it is very easy as even with plans you will never make it at home.

Last example here :
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/thermoacoustic-applications-5kw-kg-26571-2.html

Thermoacoustic is 100 years old
Even existing product cannot be found any more.

[mydauphin]

Kistinie,
Do they still teach, physics, thermodynamics, chemistry, economics, the scientific method, honesty in research in school.
Or do they preach global warning, government controlled markets, incorrect methodology, weirdo science and just building things that don't work.
Can you describe to me your boating experience. Do you realize the amount of energy consumed by simply getting a small boat and going a few miles in the bay. The reason internal combustion engine works is because of the large amounts of energy trapped in the fuel. Hydrogen is simply are inefficient for boat because of its low heat content. A nuclear (fission boat) would be great, the only problem is radiation and the occasional terrorist that wants to kill everyone with it. Apart from that I dont know of anything more a efficient than a slow turning Diesel with a big propeller.... Oh may be a sailboat...

I am going to quote myself to save typing again.... Oh you invent that...

Hey, I have another idea ...
The oceans are not level, the pacific is higher than the atlantic. And the northern hemisphere is higher than southern... May be I can go downhill..

The evil military that has all this ufo tech must be in combination with the evil oil companies because most of their ships run on diesel or that even more evil nuclear power. Oh by the way does levitation guys, the real ones that can levitate a frog, use vast amounts of power to do it and no one has proven the laws of thermodynamics or conservation of energy wrong... No matter what anyone says they work in this universe, I don't about parallel ones...

[kistinie]

Generalist answer for generalist answer

So we are in perfect world
Greed is the past
Apex is a cool guy
Liberty, equality, fraternity rule the world of science
All is found, nothing is to come

Ok, So i can go kite surfing till october

Cool ! :D

[mydauphin]

Generalist answer for generalist answer

So we are in perfect world
Greed is the past
Liberty, equality, fraternity rule the world of science
All is found, nothing is to come

Ok, So i can go kite surfing till october

Cool ! :D


This is not a perfect world
Greed is good
A Crook is a Crook
A Lier is a Lier
Liberty, equality, fraternity is a figment of someone imagination
The Sea doesn't care about you
A boat still requires propeller, impeller and engine to push it through, the exception being wind
The difference between being an adult and a child is understanding that you can not lie to yourself, nature, physics and that everything else is a waste of time

[apex1]

Generalist answer for generalist answer

So we are in perfect world
Greed is the past
Apex is a cool guy
Liberty, equality, fraternity rule the world of science
All is found, nothing is to come

Ok, So i can go kite surfing till october

Cool ! :D

I am, be shure..................

and have a nice time kite surfing till October....











.
2048

[kistinie]

Stephan Hartmann had this very good idea

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2157.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2157.0.html)


He offers over 15K$ to the first public domain prototype overtaking unity.

[mydauphin]

I would love for it to work, but read over terms and tell me it is possible. I guess anything is possible but very unlikely.

[kistinie]

This is a nice idea to avoid urban legend of inventor killed and if it is not a legend, it is the absolute protection...
Very smart...

[kistinie]

James Randi Educational Foundation is offering 1 million $ to any breaking laws of physics device !

Here is their answer confirming they can go for energy overunity devices :

Dear Francis,

We test all paranormal claims. If an energy device claims to violate the laws of known physics (for example: a perpetual motion machine) then it is paranormal and qualifies for the one million dollar challenge. If you have an energy device that does so, you can apply for the challenge by visiting randi.org (http://randi.org/) and downloading the application and contacting our challenge administrator: Alison Smith at alison@randi.org

all the best,
Sean McCabe

http://www.randi.org/site/

[kistinie]

Now above this spectacular proposition, the question is, why these strange phenomena are not tested by governments in order to do the selection between true innovations and junk science ?

A true innovation about energy will create jobs and increase access to water and food for those that have nothing.
To speak of the case that interest us here, just a low energy boat can help for travel, local business and of course fishing.

To speak of france, the country i know the best, the ANVAR or Nice university contacted to test these devices never accepted any test for the moment.
I try to search now if such a mission is existing here or in europe.
This would stop interrogations.

Does a country have a research team officially mandated to publicly open test the most popular devices as pantone or gillier pantone, joe cell and other vacuum energy devices ?
What can we loose testing all these devices ? A little time and tax money ? Yes but this would be close to nothing compare to what could be gained.

Such search cannot be left to the market for a well known reasons.
This main reason is the power of the existing thing that will fight any new coming idea or device that could take his place.
This philosophical concept is perfectly accepted and understandable even by a child.
And technical competition between company is a dream as it will come in second place after discussions to share the market and keep price high.
Just look at the fine big company get each year for this.
And who get the money from fine ?


If no will to do any test is detected, this could lead us to a justified interrogation on the motivation not to do so, don't you think ?

Rather than saying, nonsense, impossible, ask the government of your country or create real independent lab with official state mission to do so, and see if something comes...

[mydauphin]

Call Mythbusters they are better at testing than the government.
On government testing... do you think that any government is impartial as to its testing of anything. Trust me they all have hidden agenda, and that is not a conspiracy theory, just a fact.

[mydauphin]

Hey kistinie ,

You know the difference between potential and realistic?

Quick story
A son ask his mother for the answer to the above question for school.
She says, ask your Dad.
The son ask the dad the question. The dad thinks about it a little and says ask your mom, your brother and sister if they would sleep with Brat Pitt for a million dollars.

The sons ask the sister, "Would you sleep with Brad Pitt for million dollars". She says sure.
The sons ask the Mom, "Would you sleep with Brad Pitt for million dollars". She says sure.
The sons ask the brother, "Would you sleep with Brad Pitt for million dollars". He says for a million dollars sure.

The Son returns to the father and the fathers asks do you understand now.
Sons says, Yeah, Potentially we are siting on three million dollars, realistically we have two sluts and a homo.

kistinie, you may want something to work, doesn't mean it is going to work.

[kistinie]

I am sincerely sorry for this family that mixes love and money
I hope they will feel better soon.
What was the link with energy and second LT ?


kistinie, you may want something to work, doesn't mean it is going to work.

Each i say to my tree, flowers, plants that i love them, it works as then they grow bigger, nicer...
In this case, yes, i want it, i get it ;-)

Cheers !

[apex1]

I am sincerely sorry for this family that mixes love and money
I hope they will feel better soon.

Cheers !

Schnucky, they did not mix love and money, like you, they had it all! ..in theory... Hope you feel better later.