Why a Yawl or Ketch instead of a sloop

[saltydog123]

Been thinking about the next boat, and, thought I would ask the wise among you for suggestions. OK, so, here goes, these are my requirments.

Preferably a yawl or ketch rig for those times when the auxilliary collapses and dies around the time I am pulling into a marina, and, for a balanced sail with a little less main.

Let me know of any other reasons a split rig is the way to go!

[alan white]

Yawls (normally with headsail(s) can sail any point of the wind without the mains'l. They also are handy for correcting the helm, that is, if properly designed, a good yawl would use the mizzen (either tending towards sheeting flat or striking altogether) to balance the boat at any wind speed. This would add a little needed weather helm at low wind speeds and ease it at higher wind speeds.
The mizzen can also help the boat come about, especially a long-keeled hull.

[RHP]

I sat on a beach outside Loano marina in northern Italy last spring watching the yachts come out on a windy day. The usual 40´single-sticked french throwaways came out and pounded up and down as they struggled to raise their mains and heads´ls. Even my wife looked up to watch as they proceeded out, no doubt crapping themselves as they watched the beating the preceeding yachts had taken.

Then a 50' Robert Clark yawl came out under mizzen and jib, turned through the wind and sailed off on her chosen course - all calm and orderly. A few minutes later the heads´l came out, they continued without main.

I looked at my wife, she looked at me, then cheered as the next panic stricken crew come out on their french throwaway.

[PAR]

A typical yawl is a sloop with a slightly shorter mainsail foot, possibly a slightly short main mast and a mizzen added. A ketch is a different animal all together having a much higher percentage of sail area in it's mizzen. A yawl as darn near as close winded as a sloop of similar area, a ketch, not so much, because the mizzen is essentially useless on a close beat.

Both rigs attempt to divide up a sizable amount of area into smaller, more easily handled pieces. Divided rigs have additional hoist options with the sheets well eased then single stickers.

As for the description RHP offered of sloops struggling, while the yawl carried on under jib and jigger, well, any one can sail either style of rig poorly. If you don't know how to hoist in varying conditions, you should bring along some one who does. For what it's worth, it not wise to carry on under jib and jigger for very long as the mainsail offer a great deal of support to the main mast and headsails. Without it you can break stuff, if taken to excess.

To answer your question, divided rigs split the area up into manageable pieces.

[RHP]

Par, surely the main difference between a yawl and ketch is the position of the mizzen mast vis-a-vis the rudder stock. Being tall, I prefer the yawl as the mizzen boom is well out of the way however our friend Saltydog should not dismiss the ketch rig as usually the mizzen main is bigger than a yawl mizzen - possibly better balanced and more manageable.

The pics below of a C&N 55 yawl and a Swan 65 ketch show the difference well.

[MikeJohns]

.............
Both rigs attempt to divide up a sizable amount of area into smaller, more easily handled pieces. ...............

And this is the crux... what sized boat are you talking of ? If you really want a twin masted vessel of any description it's more sensible on a vessel over 40-45 feet, the size of the mainsail being the driving factor since the head-sail area can always be divided up.

On smaller boats there just isn't the room to step two masts efficiently without a long bowsprit and boomkin.

Many yawls were simply balancing sails that added little to sail-power.

Modern Ketches are efficient rigs providing the mizzen has around 20% of the total SA. A taller mizzen also allows a significant Mizzen staysail to be carried which is a big benefit of this rig. Another big advantage is the combination of sails available to balance the boat without reefing or changing sails as moderate wind fluctuates. It also is a real boon to be able to easily stack a lot of sail forward on downwind courses in a seaway.

cheers

[BeauVrolyk]

First, there is the question of split rig vs sloop. Second, there's question of Ketch vs Yawl. Finally, there is the question of good boat vs bad boat. Working my way backwards:

Good boat vs bad boat: In the postings here, the problem with the throwaway French 40' sloops is that they are bad boats, not that they are sloops. The fact that they don't sail well is because the designer optimized for the total number of double berths in cabins each with their own head. There a a VERY large number of 40' sloops that have excellent sailing characteristics. It's just that they won't haul four couples, each in their own cabin with a head. For a wonderful example of a 40' sloop that is astoundingly well mannered have a look at the Cal 40. There is a 110 pound woman single handing one of these across the Pacific right now without problem.

On the question of Ketch vs Yawl, this is partially a matter of taste, but realistically the mizzen will always be useless up wind, it's in the shadow of the main, so making it as small as possible means it will slow you down less than a ketch, where you're dragging a much bigger rig and sail in the bad air from the jib and main. I sailed a ketch from San Francisco to New Zealand and back - we NEVER went up wind with the mizzen set and found NO measurable difference is speed when we set or struck the sail. It basically didn't do anything useful other than add weather helm. If your boat is a "good boat" (see paragraph above) you shouldn't need to add or subtract weather helm with an entire mast and sail, the designer should have built a boat that's balanced without this nonsense. Given most cruising boats are around 40 something feet long, I really don't think there's any need for any mizzen at all. More on that now.

Split rig vs sloop: without doubt you're leaving out the BEST of the split rigs, the one that is best balanced and the easiest to sail - the schooner. I used to be the skipper of an 86 foot Alden that could be easily sailed by three even through there were NO winches on the boat, not even halyard winches. She was gaff headed main and fore, a breeze to sail. But, she was big - over 100' including bowsprit and boom over the transom. Which leads me to my point.

The choice of split rig vs sloop is (or should be) based upon the size of the sails to be handled and the strength of the crew doing the sail handling. As we all age, we can't deal with large sails, we need smaller ones. So a split rig with its smaller sails makes some sense. Having said that, I am certain that even a 70 year old could sail a 40 sloop without problem given roller furling headsails and lazy jacks on the main. I know this because I sail with one. To see a 35 or 40 foot boat with a little tiny mizzen, the size of a laser sail, is just dumb. The drag is slowing the boat down and the mainsail's decrease in size isn't enough to matter. I would strongly suggest that the smallest boat that a couple needs a split rig on is at least 50 feet and that the first split rig to consider, if you're trying to get easier sail handling, is a schooner. Basically, once you're beyond about 500 square feet in a sail that is to be handled by someone over 50 you are getting to the edge. That means that almost all 40' sloops have mainsails that one 50 year old should be able to deal with. With a 50' boat you might get a 600 square foot mainsail, which is why you might (and I do mean might) want a split rig.

The question is not split or sloop, it's "What is the sail area of the largest sail and can I handle it?"

My final remark is that people do use small mizzens to steady a poorly designed boat at anchor. I think you'll find a lovely design for running a dingy sail up the backstay on a sloop that serves the same purpose in Dashews books. Please don't confuse bad design, like these french barges, with the question of what rig to use.

[PAR]

BeauVrolyk, considering your experience here (or lack or it) could you please explain why you found it necessary to make such grandiose, arbitrary and blatantly incorrect bits of dribble, in you effort to describe your speculative whimsy and personal incapability at understanding the nuances of the subjects you explored?

[BeauVrolyk]

PAR, or whatever your real name is (mine is Beau Vrolyk), I am astounded and amazed that you would insult someone you don't even know, rather than actually addressing what I said. If you disagree with me - perhaps you might say why rather than just being broadly insulting.

As to my experience sailing:

- 47 years at sea
- 15 years driving schooners professionally
- 105 days at sea last year, 32 so far this year, thousands of days under sail over the last four decades on every sort of sailing craft
- longest trip in the last few years a 5 year trip around the Pacific
- sailed everything from a banks dory to a 158' schooner
- built everything from a pram to a 50' yawl
- built in wood, steel, fiberglass, the only thing I passed on was cement
- raced extensively

As to my experience here:

Damn little, and this is just one hell of a way to get it now isn't it? I wasn't aware that "experience" in a forum had much to do with the topic of what sort of rig someone might want in a boat. I sure as hell know that hanging around a forum posting things doesn't get you any knowledge or skill about what happens beyond the 100 fathom line.

Now - and I really don't know why I'm bothering with a greasy slick of bilge oil like you - but I have said exactly why I hold the positions I do in the posting above and I will gladly defend 'em. I'll even expain 'em again in smaller words that are easier for you to understand, so you won't have to use your dictionary to look 'em up. Then, if you'd care to actually say something that isn't an insult and has some single piece of fact in it, I'll respond again and discuss those facts. I'll leave your diminished intellect, poor manners and your posting style out of it. Other than that, I've absolutely no use for someone who starts a conversation with an insult and fails utterly to use any facts or even address the point of the post.

Next time, try saying something about the topic.

[MikeJohns]

.........
On the question of Ketch vs Yawl, this is partially a matter of taste, but realistically the mizzen will always be useless up wind, it's in the shadow of the main, so making it as small as possible means it will slow you down less than a ketch, where you're dragging a much bigger rig and sail in the bad air from the jib and main. I sailed a ketch from San Francisco to New Zealand and back - we NEVER went up wind with the mizzen set and found NO measurable difference is speed when we set or struck the sail. It basically didn't do anything useful other than add weather helm. If your boat is a "good boat" (see paragraph above) you shouldn't need to add or subtract weather helm with an entire mast and sail, the designer should have built a boat that's balanced without this nonsense. ..............

..................is to be handled by someone over 50 you are getting to the edge. ..........................


The equilibrium of a vessel with any rig configuration is a design issue. If it is not balanced then either the sail-cut, trim, combination or the designer is to blame or often enough the designed bowsprit was removed. I wonder reading your account why sailors would venture off on an international voyage in an unbalanced boat? To then condemn the particular rig for this experience on one poorly set up vessel isn’t objective.

The speed of a vessel is dictated by a simple balance of available driving aerodynamic force countered by total hull drag. We will always find one vessel overhauling another on some point of sail in some conditions but it’s much more complex than a simple comparison on the rig type. Also consider that if the significant sail area is spread over 2 masts the heeling moment is lower for a given sail area.

Aerodynamically once a twin masted vessel has unequal mast heights it is more advantageous to have the shorter mast aft for a variety of reasons. To step the shorter mast forward in a classic schooner configuration is as Pierre Guttelle puts it so eloquently “ as anachronistic as the yawl and foreign to all ideas of aerodynamic efficiency ” the reality is that a vessel with a classic fore-n-aft schooner rig would always have benefited from a re-design to put the big mainsail on the fore-mast, and they would get a greater sail drive over a greater range of wind directions.

With a ketch the larger the gap between the 2 masts the more weatherly the vessel. There are also a myriad of ketch rig combinations and the space between the main and mizzen can be arranged with a staysail and wishbone main or you can set a mule above a classic main.

Look at the racing maxi ketches, they fly not just the mizzen but also can fly mizzen staysails on every course of sail and they are Weatherly fast and Balanced to windward. In fact most ketches carry their mizzen very effectively to windward and drop it downwind, contrary to your observation it should add considerable drive if properly designed and set. The argument about the ketch mizzen being as small as possible is quite wrong, it should be large and over 18% of the total sail area is a good minimum since the total driving force is then worthwhile relative to the penalties of the extra weight and drag.

As for over 50 ! It’s your physical strength and weight relative to the machinery you use that determines your sail handling ability; not your age or gender. Electric winches, furlers and modern sail handling techniques have made large boats sailable by the severely physically handicapped.

I like the sound of the Alden schooner, some photos would be nice in your gallery.

Cheers

[PAR]

"Good boat vs bad boat"

"the smallest boat that a couple needs a split rig on is at least 50 feet"

"the first split rig to consider, if you're trying to get easier sail handling, is a schooner"

"people do use small mizzens to steady a poorly designed boat at anchor"

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I don't think I'm the only one that has issue with these types of statements.

There are some boats that seem better to some folks then others, but how do you judge it. Cost, speed, pointy ability, durability, what is the bench mark that makes one boat a "good" one and the yacht in the slip next to it a "bad" one. There are good owners and sailors, but boats are more a function of what you do with it. The finest yacht in the world, built by the best of the best, designed by the most famous can be sailed like a pig, rigged by a monkey and look like a rat's nest. Does this mean it's moved to the bad boat column? Or is it the owner is just a bad one. On the other side of the coin I kicked butt in a regatta a few weeks back, in a boat that by every measure was clearly a back of the fleet example of her breed. It was a bad boat by every definition, but was sailed well enough to win across 5 races. Was this boat temporally moved to the good boat column, even with it's bagged out sails, rotten rigging, soft decks and broken hardware?

A 50' sloop will have a hell of a time with the ICW or any near shore, coastal cruising. Bridges are just one hazard. I'm no longer able to handle anything near 500 sq. ft. of sail without modern sailing handling gear. It's a function of age, of which I'm still in denial over, but the reality is 300 sq. ft. of flogging hanked headsail, in rapidly building winds isn't something I look forward to and shouldn't be necessary. Dividing up the rig to smaller sizes is an answer. No it's not as efficient, but that's not the reason it's done.

A schooner as the first choice for a divided rig wouldn't be something I'd push at a client. In fact, I'll try to talk them out of it. The type of rig really has little to do with how "handy" it is. How it's setup, how it's designed, how well it matches it's appendages, how good the owner's skills as a sailor, are much more decisive factors in a rig's handiness. Any rig can be setup so that it can be easily operated. I use to solo a 63' wooden ketch, with 6' of draft all through the USVI. It was an early 60's boat and didn't have roller anything. Once I'd set the boat up, I had little difficulty sailing it anywhere I wanted, often lying in a hammock, strung between the two sticks. Your Alden was likely a well designed and setup schooner, which made sailing it easy, which is the whole point I'm making.

A boat doesn't have to be poorly designed to benefit from a steadying sail. A boat with more freeboard will march around it's mooring then others, but this is just a function of design compromises established in the design brief. It doesn't make it a bad boat, just one with more freeboard then others.

PAR are my initials as I rather not have to type 20 some letters each time I log into a site. Maybe I was rubbed the wrong way by some of your wording in you post. Accept my apologies and lets try it again.

Hi I'm PAR (Paul), welcome aboard . . .

[tom28571]

Hi Beau Vrolyk,

With getting into any personal jibes, I do have to take issue with several of your statements. Perhaps the problem that others have with some of your arguments is that they are not arguments but rather offered as unchallengeable fact. There is room for argument.

My recent experience with some split rigs is with cat ketches where the mizzen is from 70 to 80 percent of the main sail area. None of these are large boats and are, in fact from 15 to 22 feet in length. As was noted by Mike, the mizzen can offer much drive on all points of sail and allow the use of an easily handled mizzen staysail that is all inboard. The unstayed rig cat ketch has so many desirable attributes that it has become my favorite rig. Being somewhat over the hill, cranking a sloop jib sheet winch becomes less and less attractive while the cat ketch tacks with only a touch of the tiller.

Coming from a racing background, it is hard to think that a ketch can compete with a sloop but it's also difficult to see an easily identifiable disadvantage. The biggest advantage I see in a sloop is the massive spinnakers that can be set off the wind. That statement about being in the backwind of the main is true but every sail except the foresail on all rigs is in the backwind of something. C class cats have long proven that the most efficient rig is a cat with, at most, a small hankerchief of a jib.

I will bow to your superior experience but balk at the idea that your every statement is 100% correct just because you said it. There are some pretty smart and experienced people on this forum also.

Now, welcome aboard and let's share some information.

[MikeJohns]

...................

Coming from a racing background, it is hard to think that a ketch can compete with a sloop but it's also difficult to see an easily identifiable disadvantage. The biggest advantage I see in a sloop is the massive spinnakers that can be set off the wind. ........................


:):):)

[tom28571]

Yeah Mike, I suppose that is Enza New Zealand. I immediately thought of Enza when I wrote about my cat ketches. For a given restricted sail area, the sloop is probably still the all-round winner in big boats.

[brian eiland]

....I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees).

A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway.
I've posted this quote in several places throughout the forum, including my website that promotes a ketch-like rig

[brian eiland]

As to my experience sailing:

- 47 years at sea
- 15 years driving schooners professionally
- 105 days at sea last year, 32 so far this year, thousands of days under sail over the last four decades on every sort of sailing craft
- longest trip in the last few years a 5 year trip around the Pacific
- sailed everything from a banks dory to a 158' schooner
- built everything from a pram to a 50' yawl
- built in wood, steel, fiberglass, the only thing I passed on was cement
- raced extensively

Hardy Welcome BeauVroyk,
Sorry for you rude introduction to the forums. Most of us really do appreciate contributions from experienced seaman.

[BeauVrolyk]

...snip...

The speed of a vessel is dictated by a simple balance of available driving aerodynamic force countered by total hull drag. We will always find one vessel overhauling another on some point of sail in some conditions but it’s much more complex than a simple comparison on the rig type. Also consider that if the significant sail area is spread over 2 masts the heeling moment is lower for a given sail area.

Aerodynamically once a twin masted vessel has unequal mast heights it is more advantageous to have the shorter mast aft for a variety of reasons. To step the shorter mast forward in a classic schooner configuration is as Pierre Guttelle puts it so eloquently “ as anachronistic as the yawl and foreign to all ideas of aerodynamic efficiency ” the reality is that a vessel with a classic fore-n-aft schooner rig would always have benefited from a re-design to put the big mainsail on the fore-mast, and they would get a greater sail drive over a greater range of wind directions.

With a ketch the larger the gap between the 2 masts the more weatherly the vessel. There are also a myriad of ketch rig combinations and the space between the main and mizzen can be arranged with a staysail and wishbone main or you can set a mule above a classic main.

Look at the racing maxi ketches, they fly not just the mizzen but also can fly mizzen staysails on every course of sail and they are Weatherly fast and Balanced to windward. In fact most ketches carry their mizzen very effectively to windward and drop it downwind, contrary to your observation it should add considerable drive if properly designed and set. The argument about the ketch mizzen being as small as possible is quite wrong, it should be large and over 18% of the total sail area is a good minimum since the total driving force is then worthwhile relative to the penalties of the extra weight and drag.

As for over 50 ! It’s your physical strength and weight relative to the machinery you use that determines your sail handling ability; not your age or gender. Electric winches, furlers and modern sail handling techniques have made large boats sailable by the severely physically handicapped.

I like the sound of the Alden schooner, some photos would be nice in your gallery.

Cheers


I was attempting to respond to the original post with a view towards what sorts of rigs would be most easily sailed off shore. I agree with much of what you've said and don't with some of it.

First, I went off shore with a Ketch that wasn't a particularly good one, with respect to the size of its mizzen, because all the rest of it was a wonderful boat. The ketch was Saga, now called Sequoia, designed by Tom Wyle and she's been around the world twice, to NZ and back once, to Hawaii and back at least 5 times, so she's clearly a fine sea boat. However, after about 18 years her new owner simply took the mizzen down. The boat became a ketch because her original owner loved the idea of a ketch and didn't really understand some of the negatives.

Second, I do understand that with a split rig the best choice for performance is to put the big mast in the front. However, this is usually because you get bigger headsails and a bigger chute. The point is you get better performance. With roller furling on the headsail there isn't as bit a problem, but the reason for going with a schooner in the days of Banks fishing was that the head sails, which were hard to handle when on a bowsprit and also more difficult to make large prior to dacron, would be smaller. Finally, a schooner will typically sail easily and comfortable on only her foresail. This was the original intent for the Banks schooners because they were left with the cook and the boy aboard while everyone else went fishing. The fore is a much easier sail to putter around with slowly than any single, or even double, sails on a ketch or yawl. We used to use the staysail and mizzen on Saga, but it still required someone to tack the staysail, it wasn't self tacking.

Third, I have sailed aboard maxi ketches, really big ones including NZ Endeavor and those rigs exist, primarily, because of some oddity in the race rules. Dalton and Blake would be happy to tell you that the Whitbread race had a hole in the rule big enough to drive a maxi ketch through, which they did. Once the rule's hole was filled all the ketches disappeared and there were nothing but sloops. I completely agree, that a split rig is far easier to sail, I'll come to the comment about age in a second, but for max performance the losses that are created by the mizzen's sail area being in close proximity to the main are much greater than any improvement in stability from having the center of effort of the rig lower down. It is also true that both hard on the wind and dead down wind there is almost no way to get one set of sails out of the wind of the other. As a result, people have really given up on high performance split rigs unless the rule has a hole in it. For a given sail area, one mast clearly wins until you reach the some limit based on sail size. The limit might be induced by the physical abilities of the sailors, the strength of the materials used, or the height of a bridge you wish to pass under (the reason that Maltese Falcon has three masts rather than two, I've heard. She just barely makes it under the bridge that spans the Panama canal.)

Finally, with respect to my comment about age. I'm 57 and find that I'm simply not as strong as I was at 20. Sure, this will vary entirely based upon the person and their physical conditioning. The size sail one can handle is also a function of the mechanical equipment aboard. On Saga we had powered winches, so there wasn't a problem hoisting a main with a luff length of 93' or hauling in a 160% genoa with a foot length of over 35'. I just pressed a button and the winch did all the work. But, when things break, and they always do, there is a real difference between a 20 year old and a 50 year old stripping a 250 pound mainsail off of the boom. When everything's working, skill can make up for age, but when all sorts of things go wrong you may find yourself trying to lift a headsail, reef a main who's automatic reefing is broken or lots of other things that require unplanned activities. My comment about 50 was because I'm well past it and was my personal opinion. It was also because a number of my friends, who can now afford it, are buying boats based upon the "Your Age Plus 20" rule, meaning take your age and add 20 then buy a boat that length. To see these guys trying to get the chute out of the fore hatch without using a halyard to lift it is pretty funny.

I don't think I have any pictures of Salee, the big Alden. She was like a large version of the early gaff headed Malabars. She was launched in 1926 in Boothbay, I was told, but I've never been able to find a record of her. She died in Hawaii as a charter boat in the '70s, I swear the owners ran her up on a reef to get the insurance money. She was owned by Dr. Beecham, the credit dentist in LA when I was her skipper and I still have wonderful memories of her on a broad reach headed for Mexico. I've no idea why she was rigged as a gaffer - in '26 it would have been pure nostalgia - but she was lovely. Saga, now Sequoia is on her way around the world again, just left as a sloop.

BV

[BeauVrolyk]

Hi Beau Vrolyk,

With getting into any personal jibes, I do have to take issue with several of your statements. Perhaps the problem that others have with some of your arguments is that they are not arguments but rather offered as unchallengeable fact. There is room for argument.

My recent experience with some split rigs is with cat ketches where the mizzen is from 70 to 80 percent of the main sail area. None of these are large boats and are, in fact from 15 to 22 feet in length. As was noted by Mike, the mizzen can offer much drive on all points of sail and allow the use of an easily handled mizzen staysail that is all inboard. The unstayed rig cat ketch has so many desirable attributes that it has become my favorite rig. Being somewhat over the hill, cranking a sloop jib sheet winch becomes less and less attractive while the cat ketch tacks with only a touch of the tiller.

Coming from a racing background, it is hard to think that a ketch can compete with a sloop but it's also difficult to see an easily identifiable disadvantage. The biggest advantage I see in a sloop is the massive spinnakers that can be set off the wind. That statement about being in the backwind of the main is true but every sail except the foresail on all rigs is in the backwind of something. C class cats have long proven that the most efficient rig is a cat with, at most, a small hankerchief of a jib.

I will bow to your superior experience but balk at the idea that your every statement is 100% correct just because you said it. There are some pretty smart and experienced people on this forum also.

Now, welcome aboard and let's share some information.


I agree - much of what I said was opinion, I'm happy to back it up.

I think you'd find that a cat rigged sloop, which may be about the most efficient rig if there weren't any racing rules, is by far the easiest boat to sail. Even easier than the cat ketch. But, the reason you go to a ketch is that the mainsail, like that on the WyleCat sloops, gets pretty darned big in even a 35 foot boat. It's hard to handle a boom that's 40' long, like the one that Tom has on the 45' cat boat.

The reason that the mizzen has trouble is exactly the same reason that people don't sail directly behind their competitors during a sailboat race, the wind is disturbed and less powerful and as a result the boat goes slower. The Mizzen spends its entire life living in the bad air of the Main, unless you are far enough off the wind that the high pressure and direction flow change caused by the main has moved to pass forward of the mizzen mast. When a ketch or yawl is reaching, and I don't know the exact angle of the apparent wind because it depends upon how far apart the two masts are, eventually the bad air from the main will pass ahead of the mizzen mast and not disturb the sail. But, this is fairly far off the wind. The high pressure zone on the windward side of the leech the main extends for quite a distance. For evidence of this, consider what happens when someone "lee bows" a competitor. You sail directly to leeward and ahead of another boat. Within minutes the windward boat slows down, and this is with the windward boat's sails a long way to windward, as well as aft, of the leeward boat. The poor mizzen mast is not only close behind, but it is directly in the bad air of the main. Effectively the main is "lee bowing" the mizzen all the time.

One final point on this, if a slot, like the one between the jib and main or between the main and mizzen was really fast, wouldn't we still have "slots" on airplanes or be flying bi-planes? Sure, there's a slot in the wing when we want massive extra lift, we open up the flaps. But, there is also tremendous turbulence from those slots. The best wings and sails will always be a single wing or sail - it's why birds don't fly bi-plane like wings - that's a joke. (albeit a bad one.)

Finally, not everything I say is right and certainly not just because I (or anyone) says it. I'd be the first to admit it. You also should ignore the level of experience anyone has either at sea or in a forum and judge their comments on the merits. There are plenty of reasons for split rigs, good ones, it's just that performance isn't one of them. My favorite reason for a split rig, and the reason I adore schooners, is that they are the most beautiful boats I've ever seen, followed closely but a three headsail galf headed cutter. (Now there's a high performance boat!)

[BeauVrolyk]

Hardy Welcome BeauVroyk,
Sorry for you rude introduction to the forums. Most of us really do appreciate contributions from experienced seaman.


Thanks - no problem with the welcome - the good thing about a forum is that no one can throw a bottle. No harm done and certainly no real offense taken.

[BeauVrolyk]

"Good boat vs bad boat"

"the smallest boat that a couple needs a split rig on is at least 50 feet"

"the first split rig to consider, if you're trying to get easier sail handling, is a schooner"

"people do use small mizzens to steady a poorly designed boat at anchor"

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but I don't think I'm the only one that has issue with these types of statements.

There are some boats that seem better to some folks then others, but how do you judge it. Cost, speed, pointy ability, durability, what is the bench mark that makes one boat a "good" one and the yacht in the slip next to it a "bad" one. There are good owners and sailors, but boats are more a function of what you do with it. The finest yacht in the world, built by the best of the best, designed by the most famous can be sailed like a pig, rigged by a monkey and look like a rat's nest. Does this mean it's moved to the bad boat column? Or is it the owner is just a bad one. On the other side of the coin I kicked butt in a regatta a few weeks back, in a boat that by every measure was clearly a back of the fleet example of her breed. It was a bad boat by every definition, but was sailed well enough to win across 5 races. Was this boat temporally moved to the good boat column, even with it's bagged out sails, rotten rigging, soft decks and broken hardware?

A 50' sloop will have a hell of a time with the ICW or any near shore, coastal cruising. Bridges are just one hazard. I'm no longer able to handle anything near 500 sq. ft. of sail without modern sailing handling gear. It's a function of age, of which I'm still in denial over, but the reality is 300 sq. ft. of flogging hanked headsail, in rapidly building winds isn't something I look forward to and shouldn't be necessary. Dividing up the rig to smaller sizes is an answer. No it's not as efficient, but that's not the reason it's done.

A schooner as the first choice for a divided rig wouldn't be something I'd push at a client. In fact, I'll try to talk them out of it. The type of rig really has little to do with how "handy" it is. How it's setup, how it's designed, how well it matches it's appendages, how good the owner's skills as a sailor, are much more decisive factors in a rig's handiness. Any rig can be setup so that it can be easily operated. I use to solo a 63' wooden ketch, with 6' of draft all through the USVI. It was an early 60's boat and didn't have roller anything. Once I'd set the boat up, I had little difficulty sailing it anywhere I wanted, often lying in a hammock, strung between the two sticks. Your Alden was likely a well designed and setup schooner, which made sailing it easy, which is the whole point I'm making.

A boat doesn't have to be poorly designed to benefit from a steadying sail. A boat with more freeboard will march around it's mooring then others, but this is just a function of design compromises established in the design brief. It doesn't make it a bad boat, just one with more freeboard then others.

PAR are my initials as I rather not have to type 20 some letters each time I log into a site. Maybe I was rubbed the wrong way by some of your wording in you post. Accept my apologies and lets try it again.

Hi I'm PAR (Paul), welcome aboard . . .

Paul,

Thanks - glad to meet you - no apology needed here.

We could have the ketch vs schooner debate for years, and I think we're probably more in agreement than you realize on a number of your points. I was probably a bit to declarative of my opinions, it happens. The reason I like the schooner is simply smaller headsails and a fore that will let her sail to a mooring or around an anchorage without anyone touching anything other than the helm. My ketch required me to tack the inner staysail to get her around under short canvas. I have to admit, the main reason I like schooners is the way they look.

With respect to the 500 sq ft vs 300, I think this is really a choice of how much you're willing to depend upon automatic or semi-automatic equipment, like winches and roller furling. If I had a big schooner with a bowsprit today, I'd have rollers on the headsails, and I'd set an asymmetrical chute on one of those Vendi rollers that they use for their A-Sails. But, then I'd be taking a risk and have a sail that was hard to deal with when something like the roller broke. I've actually started going back to hanks, BTW, even on racing boats that have used foils for decades, simply because the extra drag of the hank is more than made up for by the ability to keep the headsail on the foredeck during a change or a down wind leg with the chute up. Even with a big crew the luff grove sails do tend to fly around and go shrimping sometimes.

Finally, with respect to the bad boat vs good boat comment, I was really responding to the earlier post about the French cruising sloops having trouble while the well designed split rig sailed away. The point was that a badly designed sloop will perform badly and a well designed boat wont. I should have said it more clearly perhaps, but it has nothing to do with the rig, it's the boat. There are lots of good boats that are badly rigged and sailed. But, if you have a bad boat, and here I'd include a lot of the charter boats that roll their rudders out of the water at 35 degrees of heel, you're going to have trouble. There are Hunter's here on SF Bay that tack on every puff. Are they "bad boats"? I would say yes. Can you sail them without them tacking on every big puff - yes, but it's hard. You end up with the main triple reefed and 1/2 the jib rolled up. A J-120 with all her plain sail up will say by in the same conditions not rounding up at all. I'd say the J-120 is a pretty good boat (not perfect) and the Hunter of the same length is a pretty bad boat because of the stability problems.

[tom28571]

Beau,

I really can't argue with anything you said in your answer to me. When performance on restricted sail area is the issue, the fewer sails the better. The old "slot" babel and diagrams that used to be in all the books has mostly bitten the dust. None of the cat ketches I am concerned with are handicapped by sail area and no cruising boat should be. They also have sprit booms for reduced sheet loads and no vangs required. Handling these cat ketches in tight quarters is far better than any other rig I have ever sailed. They can be driven any direction but directly upwind, including directly downwind under control when the occasion calls for it. Too bad that many, if not most, sailboats on the market are so affected by racing rules, or perhaps the perceptions of the public because of these rules.

At 57, you are just a lad from my perch on 77 years with health issues. The issue of ease of handling is all important to those of us in the over the hill gang. The best jib headsail is no sail at all. As you say, there are many reasons for choosing a particular rig. I still race sloops (other people's boats) regularly), but all I do is steer and leave the grunting to younger crew.

[PAR]

BeauVrolyk, I suspect you're correct in that we agree on much more then we don't. I usually try to avoid the "conceptions" debates, because you can't knock someone of a schooner soap box if it's their fir ball of the day.

You sound a lot like a number of aging sailors (myself included) that have reverted back to a "kinder, gentler" time when headsails were hanked and hydraulic winches didn't crap the bed in force 5 and building, because we didn't have them.

I've had too many jams in rollers or malfunctions in equipment and seemingly always at the worst time, to ever consider putting drum on a sprit again. Besides they're usually a poorly setting thing and massive bundles of drag rolled up.

I've found more often then not, you can make a poorly performing boat better with adjustment, setup, sailing technique of course and if necessary some modifications, regardless of rig or hull type.

Again welcome aboard.

[MikeJohns]

Yeah Mike, I suppose that is Enza New Zealand. I immediately thought of Enza when I wrote about my cat ketches. For a given restricted sail area, the sloop is probably still the all-round winner in big boats.

Absolutely; I mentioned the maxi ketches to illustrate that ketches can be both weatherly and fast when properly designed. Too much observation of poor designs (like Brians Morgan 41) doesn't help.

In my first post I was trying to say that twin masts were not a very good option on boats under 40-45 feet.

However the lift to drag ratio upwind will always favor the minimum number of sails, currently that is the sloop for larger boats. Once you get out of the racing arena it's a different ballgame anyway and what appear huge differences in a racer become insignificant on a passagemaker.

[BeauVrolyk]

...snip...

However the lift to drag ratio upwind will always favor the minimum number of sails, currently that is the sloop for larger boats. Once you get out of the racing arena it's a different ballgame anyway and what appear huge differences in a racer become insignificant on a passagemaker.

Mike, a number of years ago I went through the log book of my trip through the S. Pacific to New Zealand and back. In 174 days at sea over 5 years the ketch Saga spent about 10 days actually on the wind. While there were certainly times when it would be good to go up wind better, taking a boat to sea that is hard to sail just to optimize those 10 days would be stupid.

During the same cruise I spent about 34 days with the chute up, where I didn't use the mizzen because it didn't do anything but slow me down. I was sailing about 160 to 170 degrees apparent wind.

The conclusion I have to come to for a cruising boat is that one should optimize reaching so long as the boat isn't un-safe. Lee shores are still dangerous.

Beau

[BeauVrolyk]

Beau,
...snip....

At 57, you are just a lad from my perch on 77 years with health issues. The issue of ease of handling is all important to those of us in the over the hill gang. The best jib headsail is no sail at all. As you say, there are many reasons for choosing a particular rig. I still race sloops (other people's boats) regularly), but all I do is steer and leave the grunting to younger crew.


Tom,

I went sailing in Newport Beach, CA, on a Harbor 20. Everything is self tacking and the racing rules require that one never leave the cockpit. The perfect beer can racing boat. While it's way too small to take across an ocean, the basic idea isn't bad. The self tacking jib with its own boom is a nice touch and makes roller furling really work right when reefed. (Well, it works better, still not perfect.)

Beau

[BeauVrolyk]

...snip...

You sound a lot like a number of aging sailors (myself included) that have reverted back to a "kinder, gentler" time when headsails were hanked and hydraulic winches didn't crap the bed in force 5 and building, because we didn't have them.

I've had too many jams in rollers or malfunctions in equipment and seemingly always at the worst time, to ever consider putting drum on a sprit again. Besides they're usually a poorly setting thing and massive bundles of drag rolled up.

I've found more often then not, you can make a poorly performing boat better with adjustment, setup, sailing technique of course and if necessary some modifications, regardless of rig or hull type.

Again welcome aboard.

Paul,

Yes, when I sold the big cruising boat I bough an old IOD, 33' sloop with no engine two winches with nothing to turn them by my arms. Since then, I haven't had hydro oil in the bilge, the stink of fuel, and all I have to do is be sure to keep an eye on the tide so I don't get washed out of the bay in my motorless sloop. Mechanical equipment has allowed us to sail boats that are far too large to sail when those devices break down. Because I was hauling a family with me to New Zealand, I took a big boat and a lot of tools. Now that I'm on my own, I'm back to simple simple simple.

Your point about getting boat to balance, or at least improve, by proper trim and adjustment is a very good one. Using my IOD as an example again, these boats have long booms and on a beam reach are a handful in the strong winds of SF Bay. They were set up for windward leeward racing where the big main doesn't get the boat out of balance. As a result, I'm probably going to be the first person around here to put a reef on the boat. It's because the boat is substantially faster reaching with a reef in and the chute up, and the rudder not being dragged through the water.

Best,

Beau

[brian eiland]

Mike, a number of years ago I went through the log book of my trip through the S. Pacific to New Zealand and back. In 174 days at sea over 5 years the ketch Saga spent about 10 days actually on the wind. While there were certainly times when it would be good to go up wind better, taking a boat to sea that is hard to sail just to optimize those 10 days would be stupid.

During the same cruise I spent about 34 days with the chute up, where I didn't use the mizzen because it didn't do anything but slow me down. I was sailing about 160 to 170 degrees apparent wind.

The conclusion I have to come to for a cruising boat is that one should optimize reaching so long as the boat isn't un-safe. Lee shores are still dangerous.

Beau
On a decent performing multihull (not cattle boat) that 34 days of 160-170 apparent wind might have been improved upon as a reaching situation, and the ketch's mizzen might have been more useful.

That 10 out of 174 days upwind are exactly why I perfer a split rig over a sloop for cruising.

[brian eiland]

Absolutely; I mentioned the maxi ketches to illustrate that ketches can be both weatherly and fast when properly designed. Too much observation of poor designs (like Brians Morgan 41) doesn't help.

In my first post I was trying to say that twin masts were not a very good option on boats under 40-45 feet.

However the lift to drag ratio upwind will always favor the minimum number of sails, currently that is the sloop for larger boats. Once you get out of the racing arena it's a different ballgame anyway and what appear huge differences in a racer become insignificant on a passagemaker.
The Morgan was an interesting example for me very early in my career. Obviously that vessel was too short for a ketch rig, and the mast were too close together to get anything out of the mizzen. That vessel also had a short fat keel that did not resist leeway very well at all, and the mainsail emphasized it to extreme.

I often think back to this combination when I see this short long fixed keels on catamarans...not one of my favorites

[BeauVrolyk]

The Morgan was an interesting example for me very early in my career. Obviously that vessel was too short for a ketch rig, and the mast were too close together to get anything out of the mizzen. That vessel also had a short fat keel that did not resist leeway very well at all, and the mainsail emphasized it to extreme.

I often think back to this combination when I see this short long fixed keels on catamarans...not one of my favorites

Brian,

Why DO people put "keels" on multihulls? I am not a multihull sailor, other that Tornados in my youth, and I was under the impression that you wanted absolute minimum weight in a multihull, even a cruising one. I can't imagine that the weight of a keel actually helps with stability; not when compared to the beam of the boat. It also certainly doesn't make the multihull self righting. So, why isn't it just a daggerboard without any weight in it?

Beau

[BeauVrolyk]

On a decent performing multihull (not cattle boat) that 34 days of 160-170 apparent wind might have been improved upon as a reaching situation, and the ketch's mizzen might have been more useful.

That 10 out of 174 days upwind are exactly why I perfer a split rig over a sloop for cruising.

Simple reason for the monohull vs multihull, load carrying capacity. We would spend five or six months at a time between stops where we could pick up supplies (fuel, food, parts, etc...) Even on Saga, which weighed 35 tons and had a massive ability to carry weight, we loaded her way down. I really think a multihull would have just come to a stop with the 1,500 gallons of fuel, and the 10' by 5' by 6' freezer full of food.

I'm guessing we put at least 30,000 pounds of stuff aboard Saga. This wasn't a lightweight trip, we took nearly all of American living style with us. This is NOT something I would do again or recommend, but it was what we did and I think it eliminated the possibility of a multihull. But, I'm willing to learn more about multihulls that can really carry weight.

Regarding the split rig, I agree. Especially after having to make mid-ocean repairs to the mainsail headboard and luff rope after four days in 60+ knots of wind. It was/is too big and heavy. My problem with most split rigs, and this is not the rig's problem it's the designer, is that many boats with split rigs develop so much weather helm on a reach that you end up pulling the mizzen down just to balance the rig. I do know that's not the fault of the rig, but the fault of the designer putting a hull under the rig that develops a lot of weather helm when heeled and not having the center of effort far enough forward. Saga didn't develop weather helm from her mizzen (much) but that was because the silly thing was so small it didn't really do anything anyway, so we let the kids set and trim it, they couldn't hurt themselves and it gave 'em something to do.

B

[tom28571]

Tom,

I went sailing in Newport Beach, CA, on a Harbor 20. Everything is self tacking and the racing rules require that one never leave the cockpit. The perfect beer can racing boat. While it's way too small to take across an ocean, the basic idea isn't bad. The self tacking jib with its own boom is a nice touch and makes roller furling really work right when reefed. (Well, it works better, still not perfect.)

Beau

In some PHRF races, I do race against both a Harbor 20 and an Alerion 28. Both are extremely nice boats. The Harbor 20 has beaten our old Pearson 34 once this year in moderate wind (non spinnaker class). The Alerion is skippered by a guy well into his 80's. Don't know about the H 20 but the Alerion is out of my price range.

Sailed a 22' light weight cat ketch today in winds of 20 to above 30 with both sails double reefed. At full 256 ft sq, it's an overpowered sled in stronger wind. Needed to navigate through some real shallow water at low tide and ran aground. Wake from a big passing boat in the ICW lifted the boat and drove the CB back up in the CB trunk, splitting the CB at the pivot pin and breaking the handle off. Out with the anchor and drilled a hole in the CB with a pocket knife and put in a lanyard to keep from loosing it when we drove it back down past the pin to make a daggerboard out of it. Luckily we were only a mile or so to windward of an unfamiliar marina since we could not have actually sailed upwind in these waters with this rig. Took down the foresail and sailed into the marina under double reefed mizzen alone, making about 8kts at times.

Found a launch ramp. Locked, but some residents helped us with that and also drove us back to pick up our trailer. Some disasters work out well in the end. People can be very helpful at times.

[BeauVrolyk]

...snip...
Found a launch ramp. Locked, but some residents helped us with that and also drove us back to pick up our trailer. Some disasters work out well in the end. People can be very helpful at times.

I have found that folks are amazingly helpful when called upon nicely. What a day - you'll need a beer after that one.

B

[brian eiland]

Brian,

Why DO people put "keels" on multihulls? I am not a multihull sailor, other that Tornados in my youth, and I was under the impression that you wanted absolute minimum weight in a multihull, even a cruising one. I can't imagine that the weight of a keel actually helps with stability; not when compared to the beam of the boat. It also certainly doesn't make the multihull self righting. So, why isn't it just a daggerboard without any weight in it?

Beau
The 'keels' I speak of are non-weighted keels. These are utilized on many production boats and charter vessels to keep them simple. Otherwise the multihulls carry daggerboards (most often) and centerboards (less often). These are not stability producing devices (broad form produces satbility), but rather leeway prevention devices, and to a lesser extent tracking devices.

[brian eiland]

Beau,
Your schooner desires in a multihull form
http://runningtideyachts.com/design-references/design-references-11.php

http://runningtideyachts.com/design-references/design-references-12.php

Then there was a Dutchman by the name of Peter Spronk who use to love the schooner rigs on the cats he built in St Marteen

[brian eiland]

I don't think I would want to use a sloop rig here ;)

[brian eiland]

Not that I'm a fan of Aero-rig, but this was a rather interesting variation with a double aero-rig

[brian eiland]

I believe Steve Dashew was quite fond of the ketch rig for his Sundeer series of sailing vessels

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/aftmast-rigs-623-7.html#post204495

[brian eiland]

…excerpts from Chris White’s sailing report aboard his client’s Concept 63, ketch rigged catamaran design HERON
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/aftmast-rigs-623-7.html#post198607

[brian eiland]

BTW Beau, did you happen to see this subject thread, "Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden" ??

I thought you might appreciate it.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-16721.html

[timothy22]

I think Steve saved the ketch rig for the bigger boats.
http://www.dashewoffshore.com/do_beowulf.asp
I have never seen a Sundeer or Deerfoot ketch. (Now, isn't this the bst way to ensure a picture of one shows up?)

[brian eiland]

...I have never seen a Sundeer or Deerfoot ketch. (Now, isn't this the bst way to ensure a picture of one shows up?)
What do you call that vessel that appears in the website you referenced??

[John McAlpin]

I have built an "Eel", original designer Albert Strange, redrawn by William Garden in 1976. It was at the Wooden Boat Show in Mystic last year. It is yellow and was displayed in front of the John Gardener Memorial Boat Shop.

It is 19.5 ft. length on deck.

This boat was designed for single handed beach cruising on the South Shore of Lake Superior, an unforgiving coast.

Admittedly this is not a typical yachting environment.

The reasons I opted for a yawl with tabernacles are:

1. The ability to reduce sail quickly in a sudden blow;

2. Balance and the lack of helm effort and attention;

3. The ability to maneuver in tight spaces.

I have redesigned the steering system. I am waiting for warmer weather to test it.

My comment is that I feel that a two masted rig besides the obvious advantages improves survivabilty by allowing more options.

My professional experience has been marine geophysical survey work on the Great Lakes, the North Sea, the North Atlantic, and Arctic Oceans.

The Sea isn't dangerous, it's the hard bits around the edges.

[brian eiland]

You hear so many people expounding the vitues of a sloop rig over a two masted vessel, and often referring to the inefficiency of those aft mounted sails.

Here are a couple of photos from the recent St Barth's regatta. Sure looks like these sails are working to me

[BeauVrolyk]

You hear so many people expounding the vitues of a sloop rig over a two masted vessel, and often referring to the inefficiency of those aft mounted sails.

Here are a couple of photos from the recent St Barth's regatta. Sure looks like these sails are working to me

All,

I've been tied up with a lot of stuff and not online - too much sailing - a good thing. :)

With respect to the pictures from the St. Barth's regatta - I adore classic schooners and split rigs - they are amazingly beautiful. Also, the vast majority of the time most of us aren't sailing either directly upwind or downwind, we're reaching. When reaching the split rig doesn't suffer (as much) from the interference between the rigs. Having said that, I still think that for a fixed amount of sail area, the sloop will always perform better. But, that's probably not the point. As Brian points out in these beautiful pictures - "performance" is not a singular concept. There is performance, meaning the speed and efficiency of the rig. Then, there is "performance" meaning what does it do to your heart strings. In this latter sense, these beautiful old schooners are VERY high performance.

Let's face it, if we were actually trying to get anywhere fast we'd take an airplane, or at least a motorboat.

Regarding multi-hulls, I'm really not a fan. I know that this stirs people up a lot, but I've been at sea in way too many really terrible storms to want to ride in a boat that is difficult to depower and floats upside down far better than right side up. I know there are multihulls that have been through a lot, but there is also a really good reason that all the serious races (and most smart people) require an escape hatch in the bottom of the multihull, so you can get out when it's upside down. (Ultra beamy mono-hulls require this too - like the Volvo boats.) This is off the topic of split rigs, but I don't like being upside down and stuck that way.

Finally, I'd add one more split rig boat to the discussion, and that's the Herreshoff Rosenante. She's a narrow, canoe sterned, ketch of 28 feet that is stunningly beautiful and tough. There are a few here on San Francisco Bay that scare the tar out of the bigger boats when it blows hard. While a sloop version would clearly be faster (the mizzen really backwinds going up wind), the little ketch is VERY hard to ketch (pun intended) when reaching back into the SF Bay on a windy day.

Beau

[BeauVrolyk]

I think I'm in love.

We've been posting lots of pictures of split rigs, so I thought I'd post one of a sloop that I lust after. The Spirit-46 from Spirit Yachts in the UK. http://www.spirityachts.com/sy-spirit-46.htm

This sloop sports a cold molded hull, 45% of her light 9,000 pound displacement is in the bulb at the bottom of the keel. Carbon rig for ultra light weight aloft, spade rudder and fin/bulb keel, and drop dead beautiful looks.

I NEED THIS BOAT!

B-))

[BeauVrolyk]

I think Steve saved the ketch rig for the bigger boats.
http://www.dashewoffshore.com/do_beowulf.asp
I have never seen a Sundeer or Deerfoot ketch. (Now, isn't this the bst way to ensure a picture of one shows up?)

Yup. Here's a picture. The Dashew boats are not "pretty" (IMHO); but they sail very well and are tough. Note how far apart the two masts are and how nearly equal in height.

I like his sloops better.

B-))

[Milan]

… the Herreshoff Rosenante…
Yes, good boat. There is also a bigger version, Arion, designed by Sidney Herreshoff in 1951.

[BeauVrolyk]

Yes, good boat. There is also a bigger version, Arion, designed by Sidney Herreshoff in 1951.

Very interesting boat. I great up around Kettenburg boats, build in San Diego through the late '50s and '60s. They had a hard sharp turn at the garboard plan, like this boat does. Almost all of them had broken ribs at the garboard. Steam bent oak just couldn't go around a corner like that. What are the ribs built of in this boat? Is she cold molded? Glass?

B

[Milan]

Very interesting boat…

Yes, I like her a lot. She was far ahead of her time. No ribs, she’s been built in a solid glass, one of the first. I think that she was possibly biggest fiberglass boat at the time.

[Milan]

What do you call that vessel that appears in the website you referenced??

That’s Beowulff, newest generation of Dashew’s sail yachts. Beowulff is further development of Steve’s style – hull is proportionally even narrower, sails have even bigger roach. They are built in aluminium, and production series Sundeer’s are in balsa-core sandwich.

… I have never seen a Sundeer or Deerfoot ketch. ..

Some Sundeer’s were built as ketches. You can see some of them under “design milestones”, on the Dashew’s site. Deerfoot’s are proportionally wider and have a single mast.

[Milan]

Modern, really fast racing schooner, Elliott’s Primo:
http://www.elliott-marine.com/primo.html

[brian eiland]

Regarding multi-hulls, I'm really not a fan. I know that this stirs people up a lot, but I've been at sea in way too many really terrible storms to want to ride in a boat that is difficult to depower and floats upside down far better than right side up. I know there are multihulls that have been through a lot, but there is also a really good reason that all the serious races (and most smart people) require an escape hatch in the bottom of the multihull, so you can get out when it's upside down. (Ultra beamy mono-hulls require this too - like the Volvo boats.) This is off the topic of split rigs, but I don't like being upside down and stuck that way.
I might suggest you have a look thru this subject thread;
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499.html)
...and postings #15, 22, and 91


I adore classic schooners and split rigs - they are amazingly beautiful. Also, the vast majority of the time most of us aren't sailing either directly upwind or downwind, we're reaching. When reaching the split rig doesn't suffer (as much) from the interference between the rigs. Having said that, I still think that for a fixed amount of sail area, the sloop will always perform better. But, that's probably not the point. As Brian points out in these beautiful pictures - "performance" is not a singular concept. There is performance, meaning the speed and efficiency of the rig. Then, there is "performance" meaning what does it do to your heart strings. In this latter sense, these beautiful old schooners are VERY high performance.
The point I try to make is SO VERY OFTEN all conversations about rigs revert to this idea that the SLOOP IS SUPERIOR. Have a look at this cruising man's evaluation, and then tell me again that he is better off with a sloop?
A LIVEABOARD CRUISER FOR THE REAL WORLD (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499-2.html#post35945)

...I don't like being upside down and stuck that way
Perhaps you would prefer to be on this salty, sea-going trawler yacht (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/roll-stabilization-633-2.html#post40251) ;)

[BeauVrolyk]

I might suggest you have a look thru this subject thread;
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499.html)
...and postings #15, 22, and 91


Thanks for the lead, I read it, didn't change my mind at all. As this is off thread here, I'll leave it at that

The point I try to make is SO VERY OFTEN all conversations about rigs revert to this idea that the SLOOP IS SUPERIOR. Have a look at this cruising man's evaluation, and then tell me again that he is better off with a sloop?
A LIVEABOARD CRUISER FOR THE REAL WORLD (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499-2.html#post35945)


I never said a sloop was "Superior" I said it had "higher performance". There's large difference between the two. If you don't have the strength and experience to handle a large sloop you shouldn't have one. As I've become older (57 now) split rigs look better and better. When I was 39 sailing to New Zealand with my family, I chose a yawl. When I went sailing by my self in my early 30s I choose a sloop. The point, to repeat myself, isn't superiority. It is performance.

A good seaman will choose a rig that pulls the load that needs to be hauled, is easily managed by the crew available (even when they are sick or injured) and is enjoyable to sail (the reason we go at all). There will be completely different rigs chosen, even by the same sailor, depending upon the purpose. It is simply absurd to think that there is an absolute "best" rig no matter what conditions, crew, and goal.

Having said all that, as long as I'm able, I'll tend to choose higher performance at the cost of more work for the crew. Thus, the choice of a sloop over a split rig.

Perhaps you would prefer to be on this salty, sea-going trawler yacht (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/roll-stabilization-633-2.html#post40251) ;)

I hate powerboats. But, eventually, I'll be so old that I won't be able to haul up the sails without a heart attack. Then, I'm sure I'll go out on a trawler to watch the sailboat races, muttering over and over how much I hate being too damn old to sail. All boats have their purpose - even powerboats.

I did like watching this one roll!!!

[brian eiland]

Thanks for the lead, I read it, didn't change my mind at all.
While you were over on that subject thread did you notice this beauty...a sloop rigged motorsailer with twin engines.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499-6.html#post46726

Or here is another vessel design I always thought was a beauty, a Mercer 44, generally yawl rigged
http://www.sailingtexas.com/smercer44a.html

[brian eiland]

..I hate powerboats. But, eventually, I'll be so old that I won't be able to haul up the sails without a heart attack. Then, I'm sure I'll go out on a trawler to watch the sailboat races, muttering over and over how much I hate being too damn old to sail. All boats have their purpose - even powerboats.

I did like watching this one roll!!!
BTW, that posting about the trawler wasn't suppost to be for this thread. I had it in mind for something else and I accidently included it here :confused:

[brian eiland]

Here's another split rig design I liked, the Countess 44. I made reference to her here (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-16721-3.html#post215055)

See, I'm not just a multihull guy. I loved monohulls when they had some STYLE...some sheer and balance.

At one of the Annapolis shows one year, a friend commented that ALL of the newer fiberglass sailing yachts just looked like so many floating CLORAX bottles. :eek: ;)

[BeauVrolyk]

At one of the Annapolis shows one year, a friend commented that ALL of the newer fiberglass sailing yachts just looked like so many floating CLORAX bottles. :eek: ;)

Brian, I could not agree more! I think the charter business has moved yacht design in a terrible direction. Most charterers are not good sailors, never intend to sail over-night, never intend to sail in winds above 15 knots, and never intend to sail in cold air and water. Unfortunately, a lot of charterers end up sailing in heavy winds and big seas in boats that are completely unsuited to those conditions. A lot of bad things happen.

I talked to some guys from The Moorings and they said the charterers all want the same thing (at least more than 90%) of them. They want 1) a head in each stateroom with a shower, 2) a double berth in every stateroom, 3) a large cockpit for entertaining while at the dock/anchor (in other words while sitting vertically) 4) a large galley with stove/oven and fridge/freezer 5) auto furling sails of various descriptions that allow the cruisers to avoid ever doing any "work" (which most of us would call sailing). It was sad. There is NO demand for a boat that is seaworth, can be comfortable at sea in large swells, and will keep you safe in a force 10 gale. No demand whatsoever.

When you try to build the "perfect" cruising boat for The Moorings, you're designing something quite different from the "perfect" cruising boat for most of us. It turns out that the least expensive boat with the lowest maintenance and all the characteristics that The Moorings customer wants, looks a lot like a white clorox bottle, that's fatter in the ass than the bow.

This is really sad, as so may people are turned off by the terrible sailing characteristics of things like Hunters, Benneteaus, and Jeaneaus. These poor folks would love to sail on something strong and stable, but they never get the chance. Sad, really sad.

B

[john schroeder]

I am just a nubie on this computer conversation but I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I thank Brian Eiland for turning me on to it! I own a 57ft Bill Tripp aluminum yawl twin boards draws 5.5 ft 63 ft mast and has logged hundreds of thousands of miles I have been through one hurrican and several storms that I have heard others calling in maydays. The point of this is in any wind condition I am able to keep her moving with various sail combinations and in my opinion that is what saves most vessels from capsizing . After that a strong hull watertight bulkheads and experiance . But the designer gets the real credit. I have been a fan of Bill Tripps have owned several of his boats because when I find something that works I have stuck with it and also older designs, I have found are seaworthy..... maybe not fast with lots of room but they were designed when people didnt get lifted out when the weather got bad. Since we have GPS and air rescue ,weather reporting 24 hrs there are more people serviving that shouldnt have . (sorry thats harsh )but that causes more designs that shouldnt go forward to breed now we have boats that I look at at boat shows and frankly wouldt go out in the Cheasepeke bay on a nce day and in most places there I can walk home. I am angry that there are no penaltys for designers that build products that are dangerous. If you want to build somthing on the edge it should be like the aircraft industries and any new design be registered experamental!

[BeauVrolyk]

I am just a nubie on this computer conversation but I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I thank Brian Eiland for turning me on to it! I own a 57ft Bill Tripp aluminum yawl twin boards draws 5.5 ft 63 ft mast and has logged hundreds of thousands of miles I have been through one hurrican and several storms that I have heard others calling in maydays. The point of this is in any wind condition I am able to keep her moving with various sail combinations and in my opinion that is what saves most vessels from capsizing . After that a strong hull watertight bulkheads and experiance . But the designer gets the real credit. I have been a fan of Bill Tripps have owned several of his boats because when I find something that works I have stuck with it and also older designs, I have found are seaworthy..... maybe not fast with lots of room but they were designed when people didnt get lifted out when the weather got bad. Since we have GPS and air rescue ,weather reporting 24 hrs there are more people serviving that shouldnt have . (sorry thats harsh )but that causes more designs that shouldnt go forward to breed now we have boats that I look at at boat shows and frankly wouldt go out in the Cheasepeke bay on a nce day and in most places there I can walk home. I am angry that there are no penaltys for designers that build products that are dangerous. If you want to build somthing on the edge it should be like the aircraft industries and any new design be registered experamental!

John, thanks for this. I love the old Tripp designs too. But I have to disagree about the "experimental" designation for boats. I actually think the government should stay entirely out of it. The argument made is that if we have to go save your ass with a helicopter, you're accepting our help and our money, so we get to regulate you. I think I'd take the alternative: you don't rescue me and I won't let you regulate me. This is from a guy who has been pulled out of the Pacific twice (and I wouldn't have made it either time without the Coast Guard). I know I'd be dead right now if not for them, but I still deeply resent their assumption that they can regulate me for my own safety. When I choose to risk my life, it's my choice. Stupid people, including me, should be allowed to die in any way they choose - including sail boat racing.

Just my 2 cents.

[john schroeder]

ouch...I have to disagree with your disagreement But thanks for understanding my love of Tripps. I agree with the I want to take the risk stay out of my life senerio but I dont agree with guys taking the risk in crap racing boats that cant stay together in the first place being rescued on my dime and I think it unfair . Drag race cars dont use the roads we drive to work on or the rescue group that civilians use so why do extreme racers? Ok I dig the sport but I dig more getting home on my own keel and that was what this was about so lets start a thread about should boats be regulated or???????? designed not to come apart when mom and the kids go to sea! a . so we dont have to rescue them b. so we dont have the goverment getting in our s--t and C. so some poor sot does not have to leave his warm bed a 3am and hang on a wire to pull some a hole out of the ocean cause his carbon fiber banana boat broke. Im just sayin its you that got pulled out for a f up and we are getting regulated because of it how fair is that and you didnt learn from what your saying. or you have really really bad luck. I dont know what happened in you case so I cant judge . Im not into any regulations but if it is an"" industry"" and it sells to the general public and its not designed to do what they claim it can and its not built as strong as they claim and people drown because they trust the claim????? I think designers should stand up for them selves and and demand a regulation or a board otherwise the government will step in and they are the ones that tested the dory and found it not seaworthy! (course they didnt load it with a ton of cod before the test! and so it was .

[BeauVrolyk]

ouch...I have to disagree with your disagreement But thanks for understanding my love of Tripps. I agree with the I want to take the risk stay out of my life senerio but I dont agree with guys taking the risk in crap racing boats that cant stay together in the first place being rescued on my dime and I think it unfair . Drag race cars dont use the roads we drive to work on or the rescue group that civilians use so why do extreme racers? Ok I dig the sport but I dig more getting home on my own keel and that was what this was about so lets start a thread about should boats be regulated or???????? designed not to come apart when mom and the kids go to sea! a . so we dont have to rescue them b. so we dont have the goverment getting in our s--t and C. so some poor sot does not have to leave his warm bed a 3am and hang on a wire to pull some a hole out of the ocean cause his carbon fiber banana boat broke. Im just sayin its you that got pulled out for a f up and we are getting regulated because of it how fair is that and you didnt learn from what your saying. or you have really really bad luck. I dont know what happened in you case so I cant judge . Im not into any regulations but if it is an"" industry"" and it sells to the general public and its not designed to do what they claim it can and its not built as strong as they claim and people drown because they trust the claim????? I think designers should stand up for them selves and and demand a regulation or a board otherwise the government will step in and they are the ones that tested the dory and found it not seaworthy! (course they didnt load it with a ton of cod before the test! and so it was .

We should start another thread. Both times I got pulled out it was NOT the fault of the boat or designer. Once, I fell from the rig trying to get a chute down in a storm, halyard had jammed, no spare, I climbed it and popped the chute snap shackle. Boat stood up fast, I lost my grip. NOT the designer's fault - entirely mine, too stupid to tie on a safety line in my hurry. Second time, I was on a boat that was run into by a fishing a-hole, he never even went on deck, never looked back. What sort of boat design would survive being run over in a dead calm by a 100' fish boat? We had no engine and our flare bounced off their bridge windows without any response. Her name was Angela-Marie and she was from San Pedro CA. USCG did NOTHING to them ever.

Having said that - I strongly disagree with spending taxpayer's money on this stuff. I would have happily paid to be rescued. My mistake, I pay. I even more strongly disagree with someone like the Coast Guard trying to decide if a boat design is safe. Have you ever TALKED to a Coastie about boats? You do know that all multi-hulls are undsafe, boats under 30 something feet long still aren't allowed in the TransPac, fiberglass is not appropriate for boat design - neither is alloy, all of these were or are positions held by supposed experts on yacht design. If you let the Coast Guard or the US Gov regulate boat design you might as well give up on innovation. Our yachts will look they were designed in 1910.

I realize you don't like ultra-light carbon boats. But - which I'm certain you know - carbon is actually much stronger that steel. Also, modern boats are much more seaworthy than the ancient designs I so love to look at and sail upon. We really have learned somethings over the years, and regulated industries generally don't learn.

Be VERY careful what you ask for, when you ask the US Gov to regulate you - Very Careful.

[john schroeder]

I think we have more in common than not. I like taking risks I like cutting edge design, And I love not having someone looking over my shoulder but what is ultimatly going to happen I think is that there will be a slow erosion of these freedoms because the non boating tax payer will become annoyed with the bills that the sea faring few abuse? If we self patrol and do our share of paying for our mistakes ( we all make theme some get to talk about them others well . but its to the best interest that designers and experianced sailors speak out against stupid designs and claims made by manufacturers. That is why I joined this forum as well as to ask questions like the one that started this . everyone answered a part of the question and gave more than would have been learned speaking to one designer . But start another thread and tell me what it is and we can mush this around till we get sick of it then well go sailing !

[Paul B]

I dont agree with guys taking the risk in crap racing boats that cant stay together in the first place being rescued on my dime and I think it unfair ..

Of course you realize that many more inept "non-racers" need rescue than raceboats? If you take the sailing ability of all the rummies sitting at the bar badmouthing "those crap racers" you might be able to fill a thimble.


Drag race cars dont use the roads we drive to work on or the rescue group that civilians use so why do extreme racers? .

Oh yes, auto racing does use many of the same resources as daily drivers. Here in SoCal we have the LBGP. It is an IndyCar Road course. They tear the crap out of public roads, the taxpayer fixes them. They use the Medivac helicopter that taxpayers pay for. They have local police and fire on site, paid by the taxpayer. The injured are taken to local, taxpayer-supported hospitals, etc.


some a hole out of the ocean cause his carbon fiber banana boat broke. .

What, pray tell, is a carbon fiber banana boat? I've sailed on quite a few CF boats, none looked or tasted like a banana.


Im not into any regulations but if it is an"" industry"" and it sells to the general public and its not designed to do what they claim it can and its not built as strong as they claim and people drown because they trust the claim????? .

Now please tell us all about all the folks who have drowned and what boats they were in that were not designed to do what they claim?

[MikeJohns]

This thread has wandered off the topic and into areas best covered by a new thread or continued on one of the more releveant ones.

Newer forum members (nice to see you) might like to have a look at some of the threads where related issues have been mentioned before:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/seaworthiness-14860.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/stability/roll-acceleration-what-s-best-crossing-oceans-20655.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/egotistical-quest-expensive-thrill-6015.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/archive/t-5596

[brian eiland]

Thanks Mike,
...things were getting a bit off course there on a subject thread that was getting pretty good

[john schroeder]

Sorry, And thanks I will look at the other threads. But the banana boat I was refferring to was the Americas cup defender that broke in half off the California Coast Im out.

[Paul B]

Sorry, And thanks I will look at the other threads. But the banana boat I was refferring to was the Americas cup defender that broke in half off the California Coast Im out.


so some poor sot does not have to leave his warm bed a 3am and hang on a wire to pull some a hole out of the ocean cause his carbon fiber banana boat broke.


Really? So you are saying someone had to leave his warm bed at 3 AM to pull people off the ocean due to that ACup boat's issue? As I recall it wasn't 3 AM at that venue, and all the folks on the boat were removed to chase boats associated with the event.

FYI: No "America's Cup Defender" has ever "broke in half", not in California, not anywhere.


I suppose you could try to be factual in your comments but it wouldn't serve your purpose to use less inflammatory language.

[BeauVrolyk]

Really? So you are saying someone had to leave his warm bed at 3 AM to pull people off the ocean due to that ACup boat's issue? As I recall it wasn't 3 AM at that venue, and all the folks on the boat were removed to chase boats associated with the event.

FYI: No "America's Cup Defender" has ever "broke in half", not in California, not anywhere.


I suppose you could try to be factual in your comments but it wouldn't serve your purpose to use less inflammatory language.

BTW, I think he was talking about the America's Cup boat that sank off of California, as documented here in the New York Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/06/us/yacht-racing-yacht-splinters-and-sinks-in-america-s-cup-race.html

While it didn't literally break in half, the entire side of the boat - from the gunnel to well below the waterline - cracked and left about a foot wide opening. Pretty darn close to breaking in half.

No public funds were spent in this rescue, but there certainly have been more than enough dollars spent saving sailors in the Vendee etc....

I think a lot less inflammatory language on all sides would be helpful.

I also think that this has nothing at all to do with Split rig decisions (the topic of this thread)

[Paul B]

BTW, I think he was talking about the America's Cup boat that sank off of California, as documented here in the New York Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/06/us/yacht-racing-yacht-splinters-and-sinks-in-america-s-cup-race.html)

You might not have noticed, but the boat mentioned in that article is not an
"America's Cup Defender".



No public funds were spent in this rescue, but there certainly have been more than enough dollars spent saving sailors in the Vendee etc....


Correct, but as he pointed out, he was not talking about the Vendee, etc.


My position for years has been sailing singlehanded offshore is ILLEGAL and should not be allowed, racing or cruising. Of course if you can figure out how to stand watch 24 hours a day for the entire duration than it would be OK.

Also, anyone going offshore should be bonded to re-imburse all costs to any government associated with their rescue. This includes Volvo Racers, and mom and pop cruisers who don't think it is necessary to actually learn how to sail before setting off.

Take personal responsibility for your actions and say no to the nanny state.

[BeauVrolyk]

Thanks Mike,
...things were getting a bit off course there on a subject thread that was getting pretty good

Getting back on course....

I'd like to suggest that in addition to the debate we've been having about split rigs vs sloops and which of the split rigs one might want, it would be interesting to consider the changes that materials have made in these choices.

When rigs were wood they were very heavy, by today's standards. The first boat I grew up on had a solid fir tree trunk as a mast. Later my father bought a boat that was almost twice as long, with a mast that was 2.3 times as long as our first boat, and because the mast was a hollow box spruce construction is was far lighter than our old tree trunk.

When I bought my first boat, it has an alloy mast (1980) and over the years I have owned various boats with better and better alloy masts. The most recent having a very good alloy with rod rigging and PBO backstay etc... The result has been a massive decrease in weight aloft.

Now, I'm considering buying a race/cruising boat with a carbon rig. I was shocked to discover that the carbon rig was actually less expensive than the alloy alternative, and massively lighter weight.

Why am I bringing all this up? Because one of the reasons for a split rig is to get the weight down closer to the deck. With the polar moment going up as the square of the distance from the center of rotation, there is a very good engineering argument for shorter rigs; they increase the stability of the boat independently of the sail area and lowering the center of effort for a give sail area. So, a lighter rig is always better, provided it's strong enough. The same applies to modern sail cloth, which is vastly stronger, and the various modern lines that substitute for dacron line and stainless steel wire.

The point is that with modern materials, which are clearly better in every way (other than looks), shouldn't we reconsider the engineering design tradeoffs being made in choosing a rig.

In the days of yore, rigs were frequently limited by the strength and weight of the materials used. A sail on a square rigged ship is primarily limited by the crew's ability to reef them, which process involved lifting them and tying them off. Now, a rig is similarly limited by the ability of a sailor (including his equipment, like power winches and roller furling) to manage the sail.

I would propose that the massive decrease in weight of the rigging of a boat makes a strong argument that a sailor can avail themselves of the superior sailing performance of a sloop without suffering from the problems that originally drove sailors to split rigs for larger craft. Given that the force of the wind on the rigging goes up as the square of the sail area, I would propose that a contemporary sailor could manage a sail roughly 1.5 times the size of a sailor from the turn of the century.

Of course for those, like me and my 1947 IOD, who still sail boats built in the old fashioned way, this doesn't apply. If you've an old boat with an old rig, you need the older smaller sail sizes and you may need a split rig. But for those who have a contemporary boat, like me with my Moore-24, which has light carbon/kevlar sails, PBO and spectra rigging, and modern gear; a much larger sail area per sailor ration is perfectly safe and has much higher performance.

Beau

[BeauVrolyk]

You might not have noticed, but the boat mentioned in that article is not an
"America's Cup Defender".



You are right - technically - the boat hadn't (and never did) ear the right to be a "Defender" of the America's Cup. But, you and everyone reading this knows that you're playing sea lawyer. It was a boat being sailed during a challenge for the America's Cup, designed, built and sailed by a great team, which could very easily have been an "America's Cup Challenger" had she not sunk.

I think you're splitting a very fine point to avoid saying you were wrong. But, technically - you are correct - LOL!

[BeauVrolyk]

My position for years has been sailing singlehanded offshore is ILLEGAL and should not be allowed, racing or cruising. Of course if you can figure out how to stand watch 24 hours a day for the entire duration than it would be OK.

Also, anyone going offshore should be bonded to re-imburse all costs to any government associated with their rescue. This includes Volvo Racers, and mom and pop cruisers who don't think it is necessary to actually learn how to sail before setting off.

Take personal responsibility for your actions and say no to the nanny state.

I must admit I'm having trouble finding consistency between your desire to make single-handed sailing "illegal" and "say no to the nanny state". I do not believe that anyone - not even the overbearing moralizing US Government actually has any legal jurisdiction over what a sailor does in international waters. There are various bogus claims by various people that they do - but it really is just a function of coercion based upon their military. How do you enforce something like a bond and also say no to some nanny state? You'd like to coerce folks when it suits you - dictating what they can/should and cannot/shouldn't do while simultaneously calling for them to take responsibility for their action.s. Typically, one who takes responsibility is freed from such coercion.

Now back to Yawl, Schooners, Ketches and Sloops.

[Paul B]

your desire to make single-handed sailing "illegal"

Not mine. It is already so. Check COLREGS #5.

[Paul B]

How do you enforce something like a bond and also say no to some nanny state?

Here in CA we cannot legally operate a motor vehicle without insurance. That ensures the state is not on the hook for expenses incurred for individual's accidents.

The bond is the same idea. Why should states have to spend taxpayer dollars to fish poorly prepared idiots out of international waters? A bond ensures PERSONAL RESPONSIBILIY for their actions.

When you leave port you have to pass through customs. I can't get on a plane to China or Australia without passport control checking to see if I have a valid Visa, so it wouldn't be any different to not allow passage to any vessel departing without proof of bond.

[Paul B]

.

I think you're splitting a very fine point to avoid saying you were wrong. But, technically - you are correct - LOL!

No, you've missed my original point completely. I was referencing the fact that the person who posted that "fact" had no idea what he was talking about when it came to specifics. He is just one more voice in the choir of gibberish that tend to spout off about things they know nothing about.

If you got the point you would know I am not splitting any hairs. Facts are facts, and inflammatory language is just that. We need more of the former and less of the latter when talking about "modern" yacht design.

[BeauVrolyk]

Not mine. It is already so. Check COLREGS #5.

Paul, I do know COLREGS, and I think you have a couple of things wrong. It says:

Rule 5

Look-out

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight as well as by hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

You'll note two things:

1) COLREGS is NOT law. While it is certain that various countries would like you to believe that, it isn't true and there are numerous countries who don't give a damn what COLREGS says. Therefore, sailing without a lookout is only "illegal" in countries that have incorporated COLREGS as "law", which is not even close to all of them. For more detail read the convention. http://www.imo.org/Conventions/mainframe.asp?topic_id=148 In particular, note that they list who has ratified the convention and who has not. It is NOT law, it is an agreement between some countries. What happens in international waters is clearly not regulated by the convention, only what happens within territorial waters and aboard ships registered in member countries.


2) Clearly members and signatories to COLREGS disagree with you. France is a signator, sponsoring host country of the Vendee. The US is a signator, sponsoring host country of the Single Handed TransPac. Neither France nor the US seems to have any trouble with Single Handed racing - I'll go with them rather than your opinion.

My last remark is that I'm afraid you're as guilty as the man you've complained about of not getting the details right.

I'm done with this - this is my last email on the topic - I'm going back to trying to get the thread back on the subject of schooners, ketchs, and sloops where it belongs.

B

[Paul B]

Neither France nor the US seems to have any trouble with Single Handed racing - I'll go with them rather than your opinion.


I guess you've missed the discussions in France about the "illegal" racing of the Minis and the 60s (Mono and Multi)? The government has lately been discussing blocking the harbours to prevent the starts of these races due to the COLREGS situation.

I'm sure if someone with some authority wanted to stir it here in the USA it wouldn't take much to get singlehanded offshore racers shut down faster than you might think. It hasn't happened because it is off the radar in the big picture. I'm pretty sure I could send off two letters tomorrow that would end the Singlehanded Transpac forever, if I had a dog in the fight.

Let's just see someone auger in during Longpac and watch what happens.


When I hear about very good sailors in Minis and other singlehanded races hitting tankers in the open ocean that is enough for me to say that is not adequate seamanship.

[BeauVrolyk]

I guess you've missed the discussions in France about the "illegal" racing of the Minis and the 60s (Mono and Multi)? The government has lately been discussing blocking the harbours to prevent the starts of these races due to the COLREGS situation.

I'm sure if someone with some authority wanted to stir it here in the USA it wouldn't take much to get singlehanded offshore racers shut down faster than you might think. It hasn't happened because it is off the radar in the big picture. I'm pretty sure I could send off two letters tomorrow that would end the Singlehanded Transpac forever, if I had a dog in the fight.

Let's just see someone auger in during Longpac and watch what happens.


When I hear about very good sailors in Minis and other singlehanded races hitting tankers in the open ocean that is enough for me to say that is not adequate seamanship.

I can't resist one last comment:

Did you choose not to admit you were wrong about COLREGS being law at sea because you over looked it?

I'm done.

[john schroeder]

Ok Ok I had to come back and defend my position You made the point you have all the facts . But the point is lost ! its not the letter of the law but the intent. And what I was referring to was not the specific incident of the Americas cup boat that broke ......... and sank!!!!!! I remember both ends up and the middle going down looked like a banana to me but I wasent there and didnt taste it but looked like poor design to me!. I thank you for letting me know that they were rescued by chase boats in that case . In the analogy I used with dragsters using the highway, true..... races are done on city streets like the one you mention in California. I have driven some but the organizers compensate the public with income generated by the race.So actualy the taxpayer does not pay for anything it brings in income to the comunity through sales of food ,hotels ect ect ect And your mixing up what my point was in regard to the rescue personnel that risk their lives to save sailors that get into situations that they can not get out of them selves as you have done TWICE. The start of this was split rigs ,I say a smaller rig /split for short handed sailing was safer and bringing the center of effort lower reduces the extreme keels that have become popular that seem to fall off on a regular basis killing those on board. Now some designers have moved this stupid design into the racer /cruiser category which I think is as stupid as race car /dump truck But there is not as much movement in design for safer more stable boats and i think that is somthing that is being overlooked which is were I started bringing up some older designs they were of course built for racing but at a time when it was not posable to call for an air rescue and that in its self caused sailors and designers to sail and build boats capable of handeling what may come. Unlike now when boats are becoming job specific and it is buyer beware perhaps boats should be rated like a grade or class like learner,junior,senior and experianced and then top class the holy cow take your chance you might have to have someone follow you in a heliocopter class . Thats all I was saying now Im done with it

[john.G]

Back on topic I've always been a fan of split rigs on any non-race boat.

My own choice is ketch on any hull over about the low 40's in length, and yawl on anything smaller. "My" boat, as opposed to my "office" boat is a 30' yawl... a modified H28 with a jigger added. And on a yawl its called a jigger guys, not a mizzen.

Plenty of people will say that at 28' there's no need for a split rig at all, but I like it. That tiny scrap of canvas at the back makes a good spare rudder, works better then any windvane steering system, and allows for comfort at anchor when the sea and the tide are at odds.

And on any cruising boat, even a costal one, all those factors are worth a hell of a lot more then an extra half knot of speed.

my $0.02 worth.

[bntii]

Been thinking about the next boat, ..... these are my requirments.

Preferably a yawl or ketch rig for those times when the auxilliary collapses and dies around the time I am pulling into a marina, and, for a balanced sail with a little less main.

Let me know of any other reasons a split rig is the way to go!

I was asking this precise question myself some ten years ago. I had cut my teeth on just about the best sailboat ever made: a modest Cal 27 designed by Bill Lapworth. I had pulled the busted up inboard the day we bought the boat and preceded to sail the old gal in every weather with no engine for the next ten years. Boy she could sail. Fast, responsive and weatherly. I learned to sail and got out of all the trouble I found myself in.
As time past I was looking for the next boat. I wanted the "cruising boat" and was trying to put some meaning on what that meant.

I wanted a boat that was fast, weatherly and capable of short tacking up a narrow creek like my Cal. I wanted the increased range of a 'Bluewater boat'. This was a tough decision as I like so many knew my boat but did not have the experience to pin down the varied attributes of all the hulls/rigs available.

I took to reading everything I could find on the subject. This is indirect experience as one takes the opinions of others sea miles to heart, but this is what I did. It's a funny path which could well lead you to owning such disparate hulls as the Slocum's Spray, Moitessiers Joshua or Streets Iolaire. In the end Streets quirky complete love of his yawl sold me and so I set out to become a yawl man myself.. Ah the dream of sailing backward off the anchor...:)
Well I bought a yawl and another ten years have passed. I don't sell backward through anchorages much but I am privileged to own for a time another great sailing boat. She sails like a dream. I regularly sail her off the mooring and out of our crowded creek. She will tack under main alone in a breeze so light as to barely fill the sail. When another is going my way- and I am forced to race... she holds her own & often beats boats whose decades of design advantage should have given them the day. Comfortable at sea, nice balanced helm, the boat suits me.

I am often asked what "that little mast" does. I have a stock answer that goes: "well it gives me something to lean against while drinking a beer". This is close enough to the truth but the mizzen staysail is a great sail off the wind, the boat drives nice under 'jib and jigger', and the rig and rigging are handy for mounting all sort of gear from radar domes to harbor canvas. If pressed the boat will indeed sail backward off the hook to clear other boats in a crowded anchorage. I like the mizzen and enjoy messing around with it though what really shines for me is just how well designed my old Rhodes is- she really sails well, mizzen or no.

You are looking for the next boat and have set forth in your post a couple of design requirements:

"Preferably a yawl or ketch rig for those times when the auxilliary collapses"

Well I also value a boat that sails well thought I think is a mistake to solely attribute this to the split rig. To my mind a ideal close quarters vessel should be able to tack and make way towards the wind under main alone. This requirement might exclude many ketches and is not necessarily a attribute of the any given yawl you might purchase. A vessel capable of sailing in and out of harbors has to be handy enough to play the shifting choppy gusts as often found there, and helmed by a skipper steady enough to keep the boat going. It might be argued that this person is also likely as not to keep the diesel in sufficient repair as to be relied upon.

This is an important question- the searching for the next or first boat. I think many like myself become taught by our boats to sail them well. I envy those who have had the time and opportunity to sail many types well enough to 'know' how they are suited to each use.

[dskira]

Par, BeauVrolyk gave his opinion and wat he think it's right.
I understand if you have an other opinion, but why for God sake to be so hatefull, it is just a blog, we all have opnion and we all love boat.
Be nice, and not rude. It's easy to question the competences of somebody, in no time I can do the same if I was a jerk. But I am not and I like and respect ALL opinions including yours when in focus to the matter on the thread.

[brian eiland]

Bntii,
I think you should have posted this photo on this thread.
Another Rhodes yawl

BTW, there are a number of other split rigs in this thread of Rhodes & Alden motorsailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-16721.html

[Zed]

I think that the split rig design was often, at least originally and partially, informed by the materials available at the time. I'm not attempting to negate the advantages that a split rig has, I'm just saying that as masts have become lighter, sail cloth stiffer, sail handling systems better and cheap the whole cost benefit equation has swung to the sloop rig. People who choose split rigs these days often have very specific reasons for doing so (just ask them!) and they are not often your run of the mill family sailor.

A powerful ketch appeals to me as cruising rig, so many more options off the wind and really who wants to cruise to windward unless its really unavoidable!

Anywooo... horses courses and all that!

[bntii]

Brian-

I never did find the photos of the Alden I mentioned in that thread.
I was looking over Pics of Rhodes Merry Maiden today..

Wow- there's a yawl for ya!

http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/pr/499-cassiopee-ss.jpghttp://www.merrymaiden.com/images/painting_pratt.jpghttp://www.merrymaiden.com/images/plan.jpg

And a great sail trim photo:

:)

http://www.rosenfeldcollection.com/imagestore/m405/m405250-r.jpg

I should make an offer on that timber Rhodes. Too many boats, too little time...

[Zed]

Two kites was prehaps a little ambitious... fire the kite packer! Can I see the guy up the mizzen scratching his head? Hmmmmm where to start?

[john schroeder]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[john schroeder]

That was not my intended message . I wanted to say on the split rig. When I decided to lowered my main mast to clear the bridges on the waterway I decided on taking six feet from the mast. bringing it to 63 ft after addeding a fully battened main with a larger roach it gave back 75% of the lost sail area and the overall effect was a lowered center of effort and a stiffer ride that combined with the" jigger" the boat is a very good sea boat . So if your considering an older designed yawl with sails as pictured in the Rodes alot can be done to ake that rig managable by a smaller crew

[BeauVrolyk]

Back on topic I've always been a fan of split rigs on any non-race boat.

My own choice is ketch on any hull over about the low 40's in length, and yawl on anything smaller. "My" boat, as opposed to my "office" boat is a 30' yawl... a modified H28 with a jigger added. And on a yawl its called a jigger guys, not a mizzen.

Plenty of people will say that at 28' there's no need for a split rig at all, but I like it. That tiny scrap of canvas at the back makes a good spare rudder, works better then any windvane steering system, and allows for comfort at anchor when the sea and the tide are at odds.

And on any cruising boat, even a costal one, all those factors are worth a hell of a lot more then an extra half knot of speed.

my $0.02 worth.

John,

On my old Yawl, the Tom Wylie design Saga, I had a mizzen that was only a little larger than a laser's mainsail. I used to sit on the weather quarter while the boat sailed herself up wind (with the mizzen furled because it slowed us down) and wonder about that sail. Here are some thoughts I came up with after many many hours at sea with not much else to do.

First, I love playing around with the little mizzen spinnaker or staysail, it keeps the kids busy, is usually a bright colored sail, and also doubles as a great sun-shade when set on the weather rail and sheeted over the cockpit to leeward. So, I'd like to have a mizzen for any point of sail further than about 70 degrees off the wind. Which in my experience is a fairly large percentage of the time when cruising.

Second, I don't like dragging the mizzen up wind in the bad air of the mainsail. It slows the boat down, the sail doesn't help it hurts, and I can take you out on any yawl or ketch that is at all weatherly (I'm excluding things like my friends old Colin Archer ketch because it can't point higher than 50 degrees to the wind anyway so the mizzen is mostly out of the bad air of the main.) and of a modern rig and use instruments to prove to you that the mizzen is slowing the boat down. I've done this (used instruments to measure performance to windward) on Saga, on a H28, on the old Rhodes Yawl Natoma, and on a Cherubini 44 so I have real measured data to back up my opinion, I'm not guessing. I'd like the mizzen gone when I'm going hard up on the wind.

Finally, I loved having the boom on the mizzen to lift barrels of fuel, small boats, crates of food, injured people, etc... aboard the boat. I had rigged Saga's mizzen to effectively be a cargo derrick. The topping lift was reinforced and I had an electric winch on the mizzen sheet which was used to haul up cargo. My 5 year old son, now a senior in college, would operate the electric winch while I kept the cargo from banging the topsides.

So, what to do? My conclusion is that one ought to have a boat with a good sized main and fore triangle, one that is adequate for upwind work in all but the very lightest conditions, and that the mizzen mast only be stepped when sailing free and when shipping cargo. Let me tell you why.

I started to investigate and measure. The mizzen mast on Saga was about 25' high and weighed about 50 pounds. it is smaller and lighter than the main mast on my Moore-24 sloop Scarlett, which I step each time I finish trailering the boat someplace. Stepping the Moore-25 mast takes about 15 mintues and I don't even have a big old main mast to hoist the rig up with, I push it up by hand, it's easy. I have concluded that I can get exactly what I need in a yawl by simply rigging a mizzen that is easily stepped and struck. On a larger boat, it would be trivial to have such a mast, a halyard from the main mast could be used to lift it, and if the upper shrouds were placed abeam of the mizzen one wouldn't need to worry about it swinging around as it went up, even in a seaway. Clearly the step would need a hinged plate just likea Moore-24, Olson-30 or Express-27 do. Had I kept Saga, I think I would have rigged her this way. Saga, at 65' LOL and 18' of beam has plenty of space on the deck to chock and stow the mizzen and its boom. I'd estimate that it would take no more than 20 minutes to step the mast and less to strike.

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this. Back in the days of Yore, when the ships were wooden and the crew were iron, the sailors used to send down the topgallant masts and pull in the jib booms in heavy weather. These were gigantic pieces of wood that weighed far more than what we're talking about here. Even on racing boats as recently as the 1910 era there were topmasts that were struck in heavy weather. I don't know why we've gotten away from this. Particularly given that very lightweight topmasts could be built from carbon and stepped quite securely atop the mainmast.

Here in San Francisco, CA, it is quite windy during the summer and quite light in the winter. As a result, to sail well a boat either needs too much rig all summer long, and we do see most boats sailing around in the summer with at least one or two reefs in the main and a tiny jib, or else it needs some way of radically increasing the sail area during the winter. I keep scratching my head and wondering if a topmast and bowsprit might not be the answer for winter sailing here. When I was last in the UK I was struck by the crews on the classic yachts pulling in the bowsprits as they approached their slips - no need to pay for a 40' slip when you've a 35' boat with a 5' bowsprit - just pull it in. They did the same thing with the mizzen boom, took it down so it wouldn't stick over the end of the stern.

What do folks think??

Beau

[brian eiland]

Speaking of split rigs, how about this little number I posted today...utilmate square top main (and jib) ;)

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/sail-aerodynamics-457-27.html#post279413

[BeauVrolyk]

Speaking of split rigs, how about this little number I posted today...utilmate square top main (and jib) ;)

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/sail-aerodynamics-457-27.html#post279413

Brian,

That thing looks like it could be VERY fast on a reach! I'm guessing it might be a real handful to reef - how would you do it? Did you notice the downhaul lines (are they vangs?) on the poles that go to the after top corner of the sail? I'm wondering if you keep those tight? Ease them as you bear off? It would be fun tuning this thing.

BTW - as the square top mains get bigger and bigger and the top batten (usually set at about a 45 degree angle) gets longer and stronger, do you suppose they'll start calling them "gaffs" eventually?? B-))

I heard from one of the crew that Speedboat had two main halyards to get the mainsail up. Effectively, they had a throat halyard and a peak halyard, it wouldn't go up with just one. Pretty funny if we're back to gaff headed mainsails.

Beau

[MikeJohns]

..........................

I don't like dragging the mizzen up wind in the bad air of the mainsail. It slows the boat down, the sail doesn't help it hurts, and I can take you out on any yawl or ketch that is at all weatherly ..........and of a modern rig and use instruments to prove to you that the mizzen is slowing the boat down. I've done this (used instruments to measure performance to windward) on Saga, on a H28, on the old Rhodes Yawl Natoma, and on a Cherubini 44 so I have real measured data to back up my opinion, I'm not guessing. I'd like the mizzen gone when I'm going hard up on the wind.

.............

What do folks think??

Beau

Well I dont think you should extrapolate that to a modern ketch.

To windward every sail aft needs to be trimmed in a little more to get a decent sail shape, when the mizzen is close to the main it's severely compromised and needs to be closer to the centre line than you want. This adds to both heel and then to heel induced weather helm with all its attendant vices.

Getting a good slot between the leech of the main and the luff of the mizzen makes quite a difference to the sheeting angle (look back at the maxi ketches pic going to windward) . Alternatively re-try your measurement with a reef or two in the main just to illustrate whats going on.

This is another reason that ketches don't work well on smaller boats...there's just insufficient room to properly implement the rig for windward work.
Schooners are even worse since the biggest sail is the most affected.

[BeauVrolyk]

Well I dont think you should extrapolate that to a modern ketch.

To windward every sail aft needs to be trimmed in a little more to get a decent sail shape, when the mizzen is close to the main it's severely compromised and needs to be closer to the centre line than you want. This adds to both heel and weather helm with all its attendant vices.

Getting a good slot between the leech of the main and the luff of the mizzen makes quite a difference to the sheeting angle (look back at the maxi ketches pic going to windward) . Alternatively re-try your measurement with a reef or two in the main just to illustrate whats going on.

This is another reason that ketches don't work well on smaller boats...there's just insufficient room to properly implement the rig for windward work.
Schooners are even worse since the biggest sail is the most affected.

Mike,

I've tried it on every ketch and yawl I've sailed on in the last few years using a Velocitek. This includes some really high performance ketches - maxi stuff. Every time, when hard on the wind, the boat goes slower with the mizzen up. It's MUCH worse with a Yawl than a ketch, but that's probably because the yawls aren't modern rigs. With the maxi ketch the best set up was to actually reef the main as you say. But, it was still slower than without the mizzen.

Having said all that the old Fischer & Paykel was still faster when hard on the wind without the mizzen set, regardless of the trim of the mizzen. You could get the boat going faster by bearing off, then the mizzen would work. But the VMG to windward dropped steadily. Some of the old Kiwi crew told me that was what they'd found with her in the round the world race, and were thankful that they almost never went up wind.

BV

[Zed]

Some of the old Kiwi crew told me that was what they'd found with her in the round the world race, and were thankful that they almost never went up wind.

Which I understood to be the reason for the rig choice, horse's for courses etc They wanted a good reaching boat... or is my memory failing me..... again! :D

[BeauVrolyk]

Which I understood to be the reason for the rig choice, horse's for courses etc They wanted a good reaching boat... or is my memory failing me..... again! :D

Nope, your memory is just fine. Even on the most recent Volvo race JuanK said that if he designed a boat that could do the upwind leg to China (during which most of the boats fell apart) they would be too heavy to win on the runs and reaches. So Volvo/Whitbread boats are clearly optimized for running and reaching. Note: they are all sloops.

But, the reason that the Whitbread ketches existed was because of a giant hole in the rating rule. that hole was closed and since you've seen only sloops. The ketches did NOT exist because they were better or faster. They existed because the designers saw a wonderful hole in the handicap rule that allowed them to built a boat that was 25 to 30 percent bigger than a sloop and rated the same.

Even on a reach, when people don't force artificial rating artifacts on the design, which is why we have the lovely Concordia Bermuda Yawls of the CCA and the Whitbread ketches, you end up with sloops for performance.

Having said all that, we weren't actually discussing racing boats. We were talking about a guy who wanted a cruising boat. Thus, my earlier post about taking the mizzen down so you could get good upwind performance and then putting it up again when you wanted all that yawl stuff to happen.

[Zed]

Huh? I always thought that a ketch was a more powerful rig on a reach... there you go.

[BeauVrolyk]

Huh? I always thought that a ketch was a more powerful rig on a reach... there you go.

Zed,

Power is a funny measure. A ketch that has the same sail area as a sloop will have a lower center of effort, meaning it will cause the boat to heel less for a given sail area. But, because the mizzen is operating in the backwash of the main, even on a reach, it will be a little less effective. Sort of like having a competitor sailing right in front of you if you were a sloop, you go slower.

What makes this really complex is that a sloop has a much longer leading edge to its sails. That long leading edge is being acted upon by wind that is completely undisturbed, and therefore cares more energy or power. So the taller mast of a sloop with the same sail area as a ketch will give it a higher level of efficiency.

In situations where both boats start to carry a spinnaker, the sloops spinnaker is far more effective because it's larger than the ketch and because it is out in front and away from any other sail (unlike the mizzen staysail or spinnaker of a ketch). Modern sloops carry a spinnaker any time the apparent wind is 80 degrees or more, so that means on most reaches the sloop has the ability to set a lot more sail area into undisturbed wind.

In addition, the wind speed goes up the farther you get from the water. There is quite a dramatic increase in wind speed as you rise from the sea surface to ten or twenty feet above the surface and it continues to increase for quite a distance. This effect is even more pronounced as the waves become larger because there is almost no wind in the trough in the lee of a big sea and a lot of wind at the wave tops. The taller rig of the sloop will reach up into the stronger winds above the waves and gather more energy than the ketch, even though the sloop and ketch have the same sail area. So, in large seas the sloop will be more "powerful".

So, there isn't a really simple answer. The ketch is more "powerful" in relatively flat water where its sails aren't in the lee of the waves and where the stability of the boat is an issue. The sloop will be more "powerful" in large seas and in situations where the boat is not over-powered. This, of course, is what makes yacht design so much fun. There is not an obvious "right" answer all the time, it is entirely dependent upon the wind speed, sea state, and apparent wind angle.

We haven't even discussed one of the stronger arguments for a split rig, and that's if the masts are separately stayed, you might be able to loose one and still be able to sail home. But, that's another can of worms to open.

B

[bntii]

Beau,

Given the above why do you place the ketch as more powerful in flat water? Are you not stating the efficiency of the single rig will win the day in all cases? Is this if the additional mizzen staysail is used? Or is the single attribute of lower center of effort sufficient to win the day in flat water?

How similar is this point to the differences between a high and low aspect main on a sloop?

Thanks

[FAST FRED]

"I always thought that a ketch was a more powerful rig on a reach.."

It is , when the wind is free enough to set the Mizzen Staysail, frequently as large as the main.

Hard on the wind , unless there is HUGE space between masts , the mizzen on a ketch or yawl is to lean against when using the sextant.

FF

[MikeJohns]

Mike,

I've tried it on every ketch and yawl I've sailed on in the last few years using a Velocitek. This includes some really high performance ketches - maxi stuff. Every time, when hard on the wind, the boat goes slower with the mizzen up.........BV

It's a bit anecdotal without detail isn't it.
I'd really like to see the polars wind speeds sea conditions and just what angles you were sailing what your sail trim was like etc relative to each design. This would be an intersting paper but I'm not aware of any corresponding data that supports this view for a well designed ketch rig.

We are probabaly better off considering equal masted schooners for a start and then decreasing the mizzen size incrementally and looking at the lift drag relationships of the mizzen.

[BeauVrolyk]

Beau,

Given the above why do you place the ketch as more powerful in flat water? Are you not stating the efficiency of the single rig will win the day in all cases? Is this if the additional mizzen staysail is used? Or is the single attribute of lower center of effort sufficient to win the day in flat water?

How similar is this point to the differences between a high and low aspect main on a sloop?

Thanks

What I was trying to say, and perhaps not well, is that for a given fixed sail area (where both the sloop and ketch have the same sail area), and for the same hull shape, and when off the wind (reaching), then the ketch will be more powerful because the center of effort is lower for about the same driving force. This will cause the ketch (or schooner) to heal less and boats are generally faster when standing upright. I did not add the variable of increasing the sail area of either the sloop or ketch, in this section of my post. I was trying to simply point out that when the ketch is not disadvantaged by having its rig in the wind shadow of the waves, its lower center of effort will allow it to be faster - all other things being equal.

Now, if one adds the mizzen staysail or spinnaker to the ketch - as well as whatever large headsail or spinnaker one could set on the ketch's mainmast; then, one should add the spinnaker or A0 or whatever large sail the sloop would carry. Again, if we hold sail area constant, the ketch will have a lower center of effort. The problem when one does set mizzen staysails is that they usually end up in the backwash of, or creating a wind shadow for, the mainsail. It's almost impossible (except on ketches like NZ Endeavor or Fischer & Paykel) to set a mizzen staysail without it being too close to the main.

Regarding your question on lower aspect sails on sloops, if you remove the various rating rules that have altered sail plans dramatically, I would guess that the most effective sail plan would have a pretty high aspect ration. But, that one might want to lower the aspect ratio to avoid the polar moment of inertia becoming too high from the weight aloft and the spinnakers getting too large. (In flat water the Polar Moment wouldn't be a factor.) I honestly don't know if the better efficiency of high aspect ratio sails wins out over the lower center of effort of a lower aspect ratio sail plan. Its an interesting question.

[BeauVrolyk]

It's a bit anecdotal without detail isn't it.
I'd really like to see the polars wind speeds sea conditions and just what angles you were sailing what your sail trim was like etc relative to each design. This would be an intersting paper but I'm not aware of any corresponding data that supports this view for a well designed ketch rig.

We are probabaly better off considering equal masted schooners for a start and then decreasing the mizzen size incrementally and looking at the lift drag relationships of the mizzen.

Mike,

I sure wish I had a way to test this stuff. I'm just a sailor who has dragged his instruments along on boat after boat measuring things to get the boat going faster. My old skipper used to tease me about being the only bowman who brings his own Velocitek to second guess the navigator.

To give you a little more data, which is obviously still anecdotal, the numbers I have are from tuning up and racing boats hard on the wind in various sea states. Usually, these boats sail between 32 and 37 degrees apparent wind angles and with wind velocities from mid-single digits to the low 30s. Due to some of the particularly terrible characteristics of some of the boats, the mizzen had to be taken down in some of the boats simply because as the wind speed increased there was so much weather helm the boat wasn't going anywhere due to rudder drag. This is not the fault of the rig, it's the fault of the designer.

I do wish I were a naval architect and had the resources to model these trade offs as you describe. I do know that a lot of folks have been down this path and that there must be a reason that there are no serious racing boats that are split rig unless you are up against a serious flaw in the rating rule or against some maximum size limit that makes a mast simply too big to use.

[brian eiland]

At which point in these conversations I might make reference to this other subject thread where I re-addressed my original reasoning to develop a 'single-masted ketch' idea for a cruising vessel.
Aft-mast Origination & Justification (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/aftmast-rigs-623-7.html#post198605)

...and please, lets not re-argue the backstay forces and compression loads involved...I'll concede that critisium....but just look at the possibilities if it were workable

...lots of 'ketch' references here also

[Guest625101138]

.....

I sure wish I had a way to test this stuff. I'm just a sailor who has dragged his instruments along on boat after boat measuring things to get the boat going faster. My old skipper used to tease me about being the only bowman who brings his own Velocitek to second guess the navigator.

........

You can get quite a good idea of what is going on by playing around with JavaFoil.

The attached images consider thin foils in a left to right air stream.

Both foils have 10%. The single foil in the image is set to give maximum lift.

When the second foil is introduced behind and below the first it has quite an impact on the first it due to the upwash. The foresail is no longer at the maximum lift condition.

To get back to maximum lift the the boat needs to be sailed higher. The lift increases quite a lot but the drag also goes up.

Adding a third sail does the same thing. You can point higher and get more lift but the drag goes up even more. The lift to drag deteriorates.

The respective values are:
Single foil Cl = 0.973, Cd = 0.0779, L/D = 12.4
Twin foil Cl = 1.798, Cd = 0.2793, L/D = 6.4
Triple foil Cl = 2.897, Cd = 0.7167, L/D = 4

All these foils have an AR of 4 and are of identical size.

To get the full picture you would need to do the wind vectors in relation to the hull.

My feeling is that the third sail will be close to self defeating because the gain in pointing ability will be lost in extra drag. Sure the lift component goes up but it will be more than offset by the extra drag on the sails.

When freed up the extra lift will not be countered so much by the sail drag. Here the drag is acting more as a heeling force than countering the drive.

Rick W

[BeauVrolyk]

You can get quite a good idea of what is going on by playing around with JavaFoil.

The attached images consider thin foils in a left to right air stream.

Both foils have 10%. The single foil in the image is set to give maximum lift.

When the second foil is introduced behind and below the first it has quite an impact on the first it due to the upwash. The foresail is no longer at the maximum lift condition.

To get back to maximum lift the the boat needs to be sailed higher. The lift increases quite a lot but the drag also goes up.

Adding a third sail does the same thing. You can point higher and get more lift but the drag goes up even more. The lift to drag deteriorates.

The respective values are:
Single foil Cl = 0.973, Cd = 0.0779, L/D = 12.4
Twin foil Cl = 1.798, Cd = 0.2793, L/D = 6.4
Triple foil Cl = 2.897, Cd = 0.7167, L/D = 4

All these foils have an AR of 4 and are of identical size.

To get the full picture you would need to do the wind vectors in relation to the hull.

My feeling is that the third sail will be close to self defeating because the gain in pointing ability will be lost in extra drag. Sure the lift component goes up but it will be more than offset by the extra drag on the sails.

When freed up the extra lift will not be countered so much by the sail drag. Here the drag is acting more as a heeling force than countering the drive.

Rick W


Rick, this is wonderful! Thanks!! Could you point me to JavaFlow, I'll google it. It sounds like a great tool. The first thing I'm going to try is moving the "mizzen" a lot further aft so there isn't an overlap between the "main" and the "mizzen".

B

[Paul B]

You can get quite a good idea of what is going on by playing around with JavaFoil.

The attached images consider thin foils in a left to right air stream.

Both foils have 10%. The single foil in the image is set to give maximum lift.

Rick W

Rick, to set up your foils correctly you should keep in mind the sheeting angles of modern rigs.

A modern sloop rig with non-overlapping headsails would sheet (upwind) at most 8 or 9 degrees from the CL. The mainsail would sheet with the boom on centerline, until overpowered and the boom drops to depower. Of course high end racing boats (ACC type) sheet at as low as 6 degrees, but let's be fair and use something closer to 8.

With the main boom sheeted on CL, that doesn't give any mizzen sail much of a chance. It is always "gassed" by the main.

You mention the interaction of a 3rd sail increases the pointing ability, but in practice ketches never point as well as sloops. This is because the main boom has to be dropped to allow the mizzen to breathe. So the ketch rig is really reaching through life compared to the sloop in an upwind leg.

All anyone has to do is look back at the change made to the great Windward Passage back in the late 70s. The ketch rig was eliminated in favor of a new masthead sloop rig. The boat was transformed in upwind conditions. It was easier to sail. It was faster. It sailed closer to the wind.

Not only was the sailplan more efficient, they also removed "the weight of a volkswagen" from the back end of the boat, 20 feet above the deck.

Even if you take the mizzen down while beating you are still carrying around a huge amount of drag from the 2nd mast and all the rigging. Just two America's Cups ago the Kiwis were taking off their topmast running backs on the beats when not required. They calculated the exact HP loss for the drag of just that one piece of rigging. Just think of the HP loss a split rig sees when dragging around an extra spar/rigging that is not providing any drive.

The split rig in modern times is mostly an aesthetic choice for people who think this is how boats are supposed to look.

[BeauVrolyk]

You can get quite a good idea of what is going on by playing around with JavaFoil.

The attached images consider thin foils in a left to right air stream.

Both foils have 10%. The single foil in the image is set to give maximum lift.

...snip...

Rick W

Rick,

I played a bit with JavaFoil and I must admit it is interesting to see what the model produces. I have a question.

What do you do to model the different wind angles and velocities at different altitudes? Typically, there is more velocity up high, also the local wind direction at the bottom of the rig is quite different than at the top. Some of this is caused by the effects of the hull and waves on the local wind, and for the main a lot of it is dependent upon the effect of the jib, particularly in a fractional rig where the bottom of the main is in the draft of the jib and the top part isn't at all.

Finally, I did try moving the mizzen away from the main and then started to think a lot about the gap between the sails. At the deck, because the main is a triangle, the mizzen is a lot closer to the main than it is at the mast head. That combined with the differences in velocity and direction makes this a really complex thing to model. Just wondering if you'd done any thinking on this?

B

[BeauVrolyk]

...snip...
Even if you take the mizzen down while beating you are still carrying around a huge amount of drag from the 2nd mast and all the rigging. Just two America's Cups ago the Kiwis were taking off their topmast running backs on the beats when not required. They calculated the exact HP loss for the drag of just that one piece of rigging. Just think of the HP loss a split rig sees when dragging around an extra spar/rigging that is not providing any drive.

...snip....

Paul,

Your first point above is why I was thinking of taking the mizzen _mast_ down, not just the sail. You'd still have the weight, but it would be on deck.

On your second point, about the drag of rigging and the Kiwi's backstays, I have found a couple of sources that indicate that a round line has a drag that is about the same as an aerodynamic shape six times as wide as the diameter of the line. It seems that a line, like a loose backstay or a spinnaker halyard vibrating in the wind, causes substantially more drag. The things that need to come down off of most rigs include:
1) flag halyards and flags
2) lazy jacks
3) topping lifts
4) spare halyards (I even run a small piece of monofilament when we're not using the spinnaker halyard on a long beat, 1/10th the diameter)
5) radar antenna
6) radio antenna
7) anemometer and wind direction sender
8) mast head lights
9) spreader lights
10) radar reflector
11) anything else that can be removed without the rig falling down

This drag stuff is why almost all modern boats have internal halyards to reduce drag, along with various ways of reducing the number of lines and wires aloft. Various skippers I crew for are always surprised when I take all their spare halyards and other stuff down.

Finally, I remain stunned at the junk that people put on mast heads. Lights, direction indicators, radio antenna, and all sorts of other junk. But, as a skipper I crew for once said: "What the hell is the good of yachting if you can't fly a really big flag?" I suppose some of us go "yachting" and some go "racing" and things are little different for the two groups.

B

[TeddyDiver]

"What the hell is the good of yachting if you can't fly a really big flag?"
Ay ay ;)

[Paul B]

Your first point above is why I was thinking of taking the mizzen _mast_ down, not just the sail. You'd still have the weight, but it would be on deck.

Yes, that would be better. On the other hand, just sailing with a modern fractional sloop rig would be just as fast or faster off the wind, so why even bother with the second rig at all?




On your second point, about the drag of rigging and the Kiwi's backstays, I have found a couple of sources that indicate that a round line has a drag that is about the same as an aerodynamic shape six times as wide as the diameter of the line. It seems that a line, like a loose backstay or a spinnaker halyard vibrating in the wind, causes substantially more drag..

We are always very vocal with the bow guys after leeward mark roundings to clean up the halyards and topping lift. Sometimes in the drop things can catch behind the spreaders, so you have the line loose in the slot. When you have someone new doing mid bow they say things like, "it's not hurting anything", but you can feel it and it is a lot of windage, drag, and turbulence.



The things that need to come down off of most rigs include:
7) anemometer and wind direction sender..

It's nice to have the windspeed and direction when doing tactics on a big boat. Especially newer boats that sail quickly downhill, the apparent wind is significantly less, so it is nice to know what the true windspeed is for selecting between the heavy 1 or the 2 on the next beat.

From a tactical point of view, the true wind direction is probably the most important thing to know, so I would keep that.

[BeauVrolyk]

...snip...

It's nice to have the windspeed and direction when doing tactics on a big boat. Especially newer boats that sail quickly downhill, the apparent wind is significantly less, so it is nice to know what the true windspeed is for selecting between the heavy 1 or the 2 on the next beat.

From a tactical point of view, the true wind direction is probably the most important thing to know, so I would keep that.

Paul,

I completely agree. But...

I race an IOD which was built in 1947 to a 1936 design, a lot like a miniature 33' long 12 meter from the '40s, in addition to a lot of modern techie boats. What I find quite refreshing is that the IOD fleet has outlawed all electronic instruments whatsoever. No tactical compass (only an old fashioned magnetic one), no wind point, no knot meter, no anemometer, no GPS, nothing. At first, it took a bit of getting used to. Like you, I had become used to knowing the wind speed, angle, and (particularly important here in San Francisco Bay) the current speed and direction. But, after a year or so it because much more fun sailing. You are forced to use your senses and REALLY feel what the boat is telling you.

To your point, this is particularly critical during a run when you're trying to sort out what to do on the next weather leg. Jib car placement, mast bend, which side of the course to go to, all sorts of things that are best set up prior to the leeward mark rounding - you simply have to feel it. What's stunning is that most of the sailors in these boats get so they can accurately call the true wind speed within a couple of knots without any instruments at all.

My point is, while they're is certainly no doubt that one can sail the boat better with instruments, it's not as interesting or as much fun. Stan Honey built an autopilot that included the local wind angel and velocity, the pitch and yaw of the boat from a 3 axis gyro, the compass course, and who knows what else (maybe the pucker factor in the skipper), and it can steer his Cal-40 down wind as good or better than most sailors I've sailed with. But..... is that actually better fun? Of course, Stan used it to set the single handed TransPac record and numerous other records, so clearly it works for short handed sailing and it may make many races "possible" that wouldn't be otherwise. But, wouldn't it be better if we simply eliminated the electronic arms race entirely with respect to performance instruments.

I find myself sitting on the weather rail during a long beat watching how each helmsperson is performing by reading out the VMG in my Velocitek. When we slow down I start looking at sail tune and at how the helm is being managed. It's certainly helpful. But, on the IOD I know when we're going slow, and I've no instruments at all.

I think we all may be missing something as we peer into dimly lit instruments to be instructed on what percentage of our target polars we're actually hitting, we're missing something rather important, fun.

I'd strike the instruments and just sail.

B

[Guest625101138]

Rick,

I played a bit with JavaFoil and I must admit it is interesting to see what the model produces. I have a question.

What do you do to model the different wind angles and velocities at different altitudes? Typically, there is more velocity up high, also the local wind direction at the bottom of the rig is quite different than at the top. Some of this is caused by the effects of the hull and waves on the local wind, and for the main a lot of it is dependent upon the effect of the jib, particularly in a fractional rig where the bottom of the main is in the draft of the jib and the top part isn't at all.

Finally, I did try moving the mizzen away from the main and then started to think a lot about the gap between the sails. At the deck, because the main is a triangle, the mizzen is a lot closer to the main than it is at the mast head. That combined with the differences in velocity and direction makes this a really complex thing to model. Just wondering if you'd done any thinking on this?

B

It takes quite a bit of fiddling to get the orientation correct. If you work with 100% foils then the modify screen is not large enough to display 3 foils.

It is a very complex model. You can only work on one horizontal slice of the sail at any time. To get more meaningful results you would need about four horizontal sections and work out for this. A thin foil can only work over a very narrow range so ideally the sail twist will match the different angle of apparent wind as you move higher in the sail. This means the lift coefficient is the same but the force vectors are rotating slightly more favourably as you move up the sail.

When I design propellers I use regressions for the various parameters for a particular foil and segment the blade into 20 sections but this is a single foil.

[Guest625101138]

Rick, to set up your foils correctly you should keep in mind the sheeting angles of modern rigs.

A modern sloop rig with non-overlapping headsails would sheet (upwind) at most 8 or 9 degrees from the CL. The mainsail would sheet with the boom on centerline, until overpowered and the boom drops to depower. Of course high end racing boats (ACC type) sheet at as low as 6 degrees, but let's be fair and use something closer to 8.

With the main boom sheeted on CL, that doesn't give any mizzen sail much of a chance. It is always "gassed" by the main.

You mention the interaction of a 3rd sail increases the pointing ability, but in practice ketches never point as well as sloops. This is because the main boom has to be dropped to allow the mizzen to breathe. So the ketch rig is really reaching through life compared to the sloop in an upwind leg.

All anyone has to do is look back at the change made to the great Windward Passage back in the late 70s. The ketch rig was eliminated in favor of a new masthead sloop rig. The boat was transformed in upwind conditions. It was easier to sail. It was faster. It sailed closer to the wind.

Not only was the sailplan more efficient, they also removed "the weight of a volkswagen" from the back end of the boat, 20 feet above the deck.

Even if you take the mizzen down while beating you are still carrying around a huge amount of drag from the 2nd mast and all the rigging. Just two America's Cups ago the Kiwis were taking off their topmast running backs on the beats when not required. They calculated the exact HP loss for the drag of just that one piece of rigging. Just think of the HP loss a split rig sees when dragging around an extra spar/rigging that is not providing any drive.

The split rig in modern times is mostly an aesthetic choice for people who think this is how boats are supposed to look.

Paul
With 10% foil camber the maximum L/D is achieved around 8 degrees if you have two identical foils. The maximum lift is around 28 degrees so, depending on how easily the hull is driven will depend on the optimum sheeting angle for VMG. At least this is what JavaFoil produces.

Of course none of the data I provided allows for the rigging drag and it is substantial.

Rick W

[bntii]

Paul,

I'd strike the instruments and just sail.

B


Amen

I don't race but really enjoy just sailing the boat. By seat of the pants, wit and will.. what have you.

A bit of yarn on the rig and knowing when the boat is happy & driving well.

[Guest625101138]

Amen

I don't race but really enjoy just sailing the boat. By seat of the pants, wit and will.. what have you.

A bit of yarn on the rig and knowing when the boat is happy & driving well.

Yes - but the more you learn about the fundamentals the more you think about what is actually going on. May not make the sailing faster but it keeps the mind busy.

Rick W

[Paul B]

Paul
With 10% foil camber the maximum L/D is achieved around 8 degrees if you have two identical foils. The maximum lift is around 28 degrees so, depending on how easily the hull is driven will depend on the optimum sheeting angle for VMG. At least this is what JavaFoil produces.
Rick W


In a real sense, sailing upwind in a modern fractional sloop rig and efficent hull form and foils, you sheet at say 8 degrees, but you are sailing at maybe 35 - 40 degrees to the true wind (mid 20s in apparent wind angle).

I have to assume you are saying max lift is at a sheeting angle of 28 degrees? Of course this is not possible on most boats, since they are not wide enough to sheet that far out. So sail shape changes dramatically from the nice upwind foil shape to something a bit fuller and maybe "cupped". I'll bet that is difficult to model in the program.

[Guest625101138]

In a real sense, sailing upwind in a modern fractional sloop rig and efficent hull form and foils, you sheet at say 8 degrees, but you are sailing at maybe 35 - 40 degrees to the true wind (mid 20s in apparent wind angle).

I have to assume you are saying max lift is at a sheeting angle of 28 degrees? Of course this is not possible on most boats, since they are not wide enough to sheet that far out. So sail shape changes dramatically from the nice upwind foil shape to something a bit fuller and maybe "cupped". I'll bet that is difficult to model in the program.

The 28 degrees is related to the orientation of the sails. You cannot angle a 10% camber foil with that much angle without losing streamline flow. The attached image shows what I mean. This is near to the maximum lift that I could get from two identical foils having AR of 4.

The best L/D is achieved with a much narrower slot. So the centreline of the boat is closer to the wind. The actual angle of the foils to the air flow does not change very much.

Rick W

[Paul B]

Paul,

I completely agree. But...

Like you, I had become used to knowing the wind speed, angle, and (particularly important here in San Francisco Bay) the current speed and direction. But, after a year or so it because much more fun sailing. You are forced to use your senses and REALLY feel what the boat is telling you.

To your point, this is particularly critical during a run when you're trying to sort out what to do on the next weather leg. Jib car placement, mast bend, which side of the course to go to, all sorts of things that are best set up prior to the leeward mark rounding - you simply have to feel it. What's stunning is that most of the sailors in these boats get so they can accurately call the true wind speed within a couple of knots without any instruments at all.
My point is, while they're is certainly no doubt that one can sail the boat better with instruments, it's not as interesting or as much fun.

I've sailed, raced, and been part of winning efforts in every type of boat from beach cats to maxi sleds, so I have raced with nothing but telltales to the latest electronics. All can be equally "fun".

I have an electronic compass on my boat, a knotmeter that works intermittently, and no motor. For that type of sportboat sailing it is fine. I would not put wind instruments on it. It doesn't have the sail selection that a big boat had, so it wouldn't be too helpful anyway.

On the other hand, I would rather not race against a fleet of TP52s and the like without all the aid I can get. When doing tactics and navigation in a fleet like that you can have a bit on at any given time. Believe me, we don't sit and stare at numbers, these are tools and not crutches. With your head constantly out of the boat it is nice to be able to take a quick look and see where things are when you have to make a "now" decision.

I do agree some people focus on numbers instead of sailing, but the good sailors sail and use the numbers to help back up what they already know. I once did a race on an IOR boat, and every time the helmsman/owner mentioned a number on one of the many readouts he had on deck our headsail trimmer would duct tape over that readout. Best thing for that guy.

[Paul B]

The 28 degrees is related to the orientation of the sails.

Rick W


Understood. I think.

However, as drawn the "boat" is pointing at 29 degrees to the True Wind as I read you sketch. No one can sail that high, except maybe something like an ACC boat in pinch mode.

If we assume this to be the Apparent Wind angle then the leech of the forward foil would be much closer to the leading edge of the trailing foil. As drawn the forward sail would be luffing. Both sails actually, unless I am misunderstanding your document.

[Guest625101138]

Paul
JavaFoil is not difficult to use and can give useful data related to sails. I have verified its output against wind tunnel data for a number of thin foils and it is so close I do not bother with the measured data anymore. The money I paid for the Selig volume is a waste.

Rick W

[BeauVrolyk]

I've sailed, raced, and been part of winning efforts in every type of boat from beach cats to maxi sleds, so I have raced with nothing but telltales to the latest electronics. All can be equally "fun".

...snip....

I do agree some people focus on numbers instead of sailing, but the good sailors sail and use the numbers to help back up what they already know. I once did a race on an IOR boat, and every time the helmsman/owner mentioned a number on one of the many readouts he had on deck our headsail trimmer would duct tape over that readout. Best thing for that guy.


Paul,

I love the story about the guy with the tape! I'll remember that.

I also know it's way easier to sail a TP52 or any multi-sail-choice boat with instruments. I also agree that the good sailors only use the instruments to augment what they're feeling. My point was that it might be even more interesting if all the TP52s had to sail without instruments, sort of like big complex lasers.

Beau

[Paul B]

Paul
JavaFoil is not difficult to use and can give useful data related to sails. I have verified its output against wind tunnel data for a number of thin foils and it is so close I do not bother with the measured data anymore. The money I paid for the Selig volume is a waste.

Rick W


Are the wind tunnel models fabric or solid?

I can imagine a sheet metal foil doing what you show, but a fabric sail is going to luff if it is sheeted that far off the CL (connecting the leading edges of both sails) while sailing at 29 degrees from the True Wind. At 29 degrees to Ture Wind the main leach would line up with the luff (leading edge) of both foils, and the leech of the forward foil would be at less than 8 degrees from the CL. Even then it would probably be luffing.

However, since the wind tunnel model is static I suppose the wind in the tunnel would be more like Apparent Wind. So 29 degrees would be just outside of upwind, about 2 to 5 degrees in foot mode. So maybe the main would be a degree or so off CL and the jib might be out to 10 or 11 degrees from CL.

Maybe there is something I am not seeing.

[Guest625101138]

Understood. I think.

However, as drawn the "boat" is pointing at 29 degrees to the True Wind as I read you sketch. No one can sail that high, except maybe something like an ACC boat in pinch mode.

If we assume this to be the Apparent Wind angle then the leech of the forward foil would be much closer to the leading edge of the trailing foil. As drawn the forward sail would be luffing. Both sails actually, unless I am misunderstanding your document.

The angle is to the apparent wind. That is all JavaFoil can work with. You have to do the vectors to get the true wind and that will be based on windspeed and boatspeed of course.

The angle of the streamlines in the image is because the image is near the foil. The foil affects a huge zone around it. Many times greater than its length. If I zoomed out the steamlines are running horizontal on the extremity of the image.

Rick W

[Paul B]

The angle is to the apparent wind. That is all JavaFoil can work with. You have to do the vectors to get the true wind and that will be based on windspeed and boatspeed of course.
Rick W

OK, that is what I thought.

So, what is the sheeting angle for the headsail? It looks to be more than 10 degrees. I think it looks too open for that point of sail.

What is the sheeting angle of the mainsail?

For most boats out there 29 degrees Apparent really is upwind. For some more modern boats it is just cracked off. Your sail trim doesn't look that way to my eye. I'll take a look and measure myself when I get home.

Does the program allow you to "trim" the sails as I suggest? I'm sure the overall L/D would drop, but it might be more representative of the real world.

[Guest625101138]

...

Does the program allow you to "trim" the sails as I suggest? I'm sure the overall L/D would drop, but it might be more representative of the real world.

You should have a go with it. It is the best thing I have found for getting hard data on any foil you choose:
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/jf_applet.htm
This will start as a Java applet in explorer.

You select a foil. I usually use a NACA 4-series with a 1% thickness and 10% camber to model a sail. You need to set the options page to suit the AR of the sail. This is typically 4 to 5 but you can work it out for the particular sail.

You then orientate the sail. I have found it is easier to comprehend if you leave the angle of attack at 0 degrees and fiddle with the arrangement of the sail or sails.

Playing with the angles and orientation is just like trimming sails and you can get some useful data on lift and drag coefficients.

The streamlines tend to deceive the eye when it comes to angles.

You can play around with more complex foils to see how they perform.

Rick W

[Ad Hoc]

"...Does the program allow you to "trim" the sails as I suggest?..."

Javafoil is a very limited program for classic 2D flow for infinite lengths, within a discrete set of parameters. To suggest that the software can model complex interactions of sails and obtain meaningful qualitative results is fantasy world.

A normal sail for instance ranging in camber from around 1~10% from the boom to the mast head. It is not a standard aspect ratio (in terms of aeronautic definition) and rectilinear shape. As you have also noted too:
"..I can imagine a sheet metal foil doing what you show, but a fabric sail is going to luff if it is sheeted that far off the CL .."

Javafoil was developed for fixed wing aircraft designers to get a quick rough idea of lift/drag. It only assists those that do not have the 2 classic books on obtaining lift/drag data, not cheap, and those that have no formal training in aeronautics and to an extent hydrodynamics.

[apex1]

Give it up ! Mr. just my Name.. will not ever leave his point of view. He has a mighty software backing him.
And we poor idiots have to folllow his figures.
Be sure Willoughby, when ever you arise, I will have a comment!

[Guest625101138]

Are the wind tunnel models fabric or solid?

I can imagine a sheet metal foil doing what you show, but a fabric sail is going to luff if it is sheeted that far off the CL (connecting the leading edges of both sails) while sailing at 29 degrees from the True Wind. At 29 degrees to Ture Wind the main leach would line up with the luff (leading edge) of both foils, and the leech of the forward foil would be at less than 8 degrees from the CL. Even then it would probably be luffing.

However, since the wind tunnel model is static I suppose the wind in the tunnel would be more like Apparent Wind. So 29 degrees would be just outside of upwind, about 2 to 5 degrees in foot mode. So maybe the main would be a degree or so off CL and the jib might be out to 10 or 11 degrees from CL.

Maybe there is something I am not seeing.

The model represents a rigid shape. If the shape distorts under pressure then the shape needs to be remodelled to that new shape. The reason for modern sails using very stiff fabrics is to avoid the shape changing under load. They can hold more to the ideal shape. Of course the best sails for performance are rigid foils but this brings in a whole new range of issues like reefing that have been solved for fabric sails.

The model is not accurate once you lose streamline flow such as experienced in a luffing condition. The foil performance will drop off anyhow under these circumstances. You can also see by the pressure fields if the sail is luffing.

Thin foils only operate over a narrow range of angles so you have to trim them as you move one in relation to the other. This is no different to what you do with sails.

Rick W

[Paul B]

You then orientate the sail. I have found it is easier to comprehend if you leave the angle of attack at 0 degrees and fiddle with the arrangement of the sail or sails.

Playing with the angles and orientation is just like trimming sails and you can get some useful data on lift and drag coefficients.

The streamlines tend to deceive the eye when it comes to angles.

Rick W

OK this is what I have been trying to say.

If you have a boat sailing upwind the sails will be trimmed in. The forward foil in your document seems to have the line between the tack and clew parallel to the (apparent) wind direction. That's not how you sail upwind. The sail would be flogging.

If you have a boat sailing at 40 degrees off True Wind (tacking through 80 degrees, not a bad boat), sailing uphill at 7 knots speed in 12 knots true wind (Farr 40-ish), then you would have an apparent wind angle of about 25.5 degrees. So your 28 degrees is only about 2.5 degrees cracked off from real point mode. So instead of sheeting at 8 degrees from CL you might be at 10 degrees, as I am showing here in the attachment.

The main would also be slightly cracked off from CL, unless you were a slower boat and then you would be going to weather with the main basically on CL (dashed red line).


There must be something I am not understanding.

[Ad Hoc]

Paul

Perhaps some real data would help clear up the issue for you, see attached?

(ops forgot to add the other file-done)

[Paul B]

Paul

Perhaps some real data would help clear up the issue for you, see attached?

(ops forgot to add the other file-done)


I own that book. I don't see how that attachment answers my question.

[Milan]

... The split rig in modern times is mostly an aesthetic choice for people who think this is how boats are supposed to look.

People as Greg Elliott? http://www.elliott-marine.com/primo.html

[Guest625101138]

OK this is what I have been trying to say.

If you have a boat sailing upwind the sails will be trimmed in. The forward foil in your document seems to have the line between the tack and clew parallel to the (apparent) wind direction. That's not how you sail upwind. The sail would be flogging.

If you have a boat sailing at 40 degrees off True Wind (tacking through 80 degrees, not a bad boat), sailing uphill at 7 knots speed in 12 knots true wind (Farr 40-ish), then you would have an apparent wind angle of about 25.5 degrees. So your 28 degrees is only about 2.5 degrees cracked off from real point mode. So instead of sheeting at 8 degrees from CL you might be at 10 degrees, as I am showing here in the attachment.

The main would also be slightly cracked off from CL, unless you were a slower boat and then you would be going to weather with the main basically on CL (dashed red line).


There must be something I am not understanding.

You are correct about the sheeting angles. The only way you will achieve this and have streamline flow is to push the camber further forward on the sail. You can do this with JavaFoil. It allows a higher angle of attack with each individual sail. The maximum camber occurs at more like 20 to 30% than the 40% of a NACA 4-series.

There is also the possibility of pushing the sail closer to stall (this is when you see the tufts lift) and this could very well be the best sail trim for the best VMG. JavaFoil has various options to select for the stall condition but these are empirical relationships that are based on observations and not analytical in derivation.

Attached shows the leading foil with camber further forward that is still operating in streamline flow.

You can spend a long time modelling the exact shape of the sail to get it close to what is happening in real life. The aim would be to see what adjustments are made to then get better performance.

Rick W

[Ad Hoc]

Paul
"...The forward foil in your document seems to have the line between the tack and clew parallel to the (apparent) wind direction. That's not how you sail upwind. The sail would be flogging..."

fig.107, with increasing angle of separation/trim between the sails, the higher AoA promotes the onset of separation of flow and leads to your 'the sail would be flogging".

If i understand you correctly.

[Paul B]

Paul
"...The forward foil in your document seems to have the line between the tack and clew parallel to the (apparent) wind direction. That's not how you sail upwind. The sail would be flogging..."

fig.107, with increasing angle of separation/trim between the sails, the higher AoA promotes the onset of separation of flow and leads to your 'the sail would be flogging".

If i understand you correctly.

No. It has nothing to do with interaction between sails. It would be an issue if we were talking about a catboat.

If a sail's tack and clew are aligned with the wind direction it will not fill, it will flog.

[Paul B]

You are correct about the sheeting angles. The only way you will achieve this and have streamline flow is to push the camber further forward on the sail. You can do this with JavaFoil. It allows a higher angle of attack with each individual sail. The maximum camber occurs at more like 20 to 30% than the 40% of a NACA 4-series.

There is also the possibility of pushing the sail closer to stall (this is when you see the leeward tufts lift) and this could very well be the best sail trim for the best VMG. JavaFoil has various options to select for the stall condition but these are empirical relationships that are based on observations and not analytical in derivation.

Attached shows the leading foil with camber further forward that is still operating in streamline flow.

You can spend a long time modelling the exact shape of the sail to get it close to what is happening in real life. The aim would be to see what adjustments are made to then get better performance.

Rick W

Headsails do have the max camber closer to 30-35% than 40%.

This latest iteration of your foils would still be luffing.

I don't think I will ever understand what you are trying to show.

[Paul B]

People as Greg Elliott? http://www.elliott-marine.com/primo.html


Next you will mention Mari Cha?

Specialty boats. In the 15 years since EM was launched, how many have followed?

Let's see how this boat would stack up against a TP52. Upwind there would be no contest.

[Ad Hoc]

Paul

Then perhaps ive missed the question/point you're asking?
sorry!

[Guest625101138]

Headsails do have the max camber closer to 30-35% than 40%.

This latest iteration of your foils would still be luffing.

I don't think I will ever understand what you are trying to show.

The apparent wind as experienced on the boat will be different to the true apparent wind as you experience aligned to the hull. These are caused by the leeway of the hull and the change in airflow around the sails.

To get the true angle of the wind you need to be removed from the infuence of the sails

Attached shows a foil of 1% thickness, with 10% camber located at 30% chord and an AR of 4. It is aligned to the position of maximum lift. You can see from the streamlines that the air has curved quite a lot as it enters the sail. This is not the true apparent wind.

The second image is the same sail but zoomed out to show that the flow is directly left to right.

The sheeting angle with respect to the apparent wind is about 15 degrees. The sheeting angle would be much greater for the wind angle approaching the front of the sail.

So the angles you experience depend on your frame of reference. There is no instrument using wind data around the boat that can give you the far field apparent wind. You would need to be collecting wind data from a fixed point and then adjusting to the actual velocity vectors to determine the far field apparent wind. All the angles I have shown above refer to the far field and this is taking undisturbed airflow directly left to right.

So sheeting angles with respect to apparent wind need to consider the frame of reference of the observer.

Rick W

[Boatpride]

Last week I sailed on board http://www.sailingnetworks.com/boats/view/2 in the photo she has four sails up. But we also used the Mizzen Stay Sail as well.

The sloop designs were quicker in light air. They are lighter and have longer keels. On the light air days we came in around the middle of the finishing order.

But on the two days when the winds were over twenty knots constantly we lead the field, being able to put up five sails and avoid broaching!

My money is on yawls!

[brian eiland]

I was just reviewing a few subject threads, and ran through all of this one real quick. There was much really good conversation here. I thought it desired reviving.