Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler

[Towboat Ed]

I hope I am not violating any forum rules by posting a link to my website, but is the best way I know to show my Hybrid www.water4fuel4boats.com
If anyone wants to discuss it, I will get back when I have more time...

[KnottyBuoyz]

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here and say this sounds like snake oil to me! I go to the "test results" on your web site and I find nadda! Prove it works and I might consider it.

[Towboat Ed]

Hi Rick...the "Test Results" tab, or page was just added to my site. by my webmaster, yesterday. Maybe I should have waited until I am ready to leave on the 2-3 month cruise. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I have seen good results on my vehicles, in the year that I have been experimenting with HHO, but my site is about boats, so I want results from the unit on the boat. I will be leaving in the next week or so, and plan on posting my fuel usage, miles,rpm, etc...Daily...Good or Bad...I will post All the numbers, daily, on that "test Results page. Thanks again...Ed

[kistinie]

It is very likely this device work as

Injecting any explosive gas to a diesel give an incredible increase of performances.
A lot of patents exists about diesel injected with gaz.

How hydrogen is injected to engine ?
Hydrogen is the king of escape, how do you prevent leaks ?
Is it worth recycling lead batteries fumes ?
I guess yes

Electricity to electrolyse can be thermoacoustic ?

Great things to come !

[thudpucker]

I cant figure out exactly what is a HHO or Hydrocell.

Do we use the same Reciprocating engine; ie chebby 350, and feed it Hydrogen gas?
Instead of Gasoline? Or mixed in with the Gasoline?
I'd sure like to see a block diagram with all the parts noted.

[kerosene]

HHO is mystical way of creating hydrogen with less energy than can be recovered by burning it back to water.

Why these "water car" folks insist on burning the valuable hydrogen in crappy low efficiency engines is beyond me - If I had a solution for perpetual motion machine (output more than input) I wouldn't waste it at 35% (at best) efficient 4-stroke engines.

You can google youtube HHO and "whatever that fuel cell was called" and get bunch of guys building and proving but nothing functional or 3rd party tested.

It really would amaze me if stainless steel cylinders and simple electric current would make a device that could break the very fundamental physics rules.

Good luck.


edit:

"Reduce your Carbon Footprint !! HHO reduces Harmful Emmisions by up to 90% !!" - yah - and let me guess that it is oil companies conspiracy that we haven't seen these yet. After all the talk of HHO, brown gas, etc. is decades old.

Yeah - BMW, AUDI, WV, SISU, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota etc. none care about fuel efficiency enough to try this public knowledge in practice?
Or they did but the results were so tremendous that they thought that the world wasn't ready for it?

Sorry for slamming you specifically but I have spent quite some time reading about "alternate energy" solutions that exist only for quick buck and to con audience who has lacking understanding of physics.

[thudpucker]

That's OK, Kerosne. I'm learning too. A little at a time. I can see why people who 'know' get sorta short tempered with those who keep suggesting without ever knowing it wont work.

I never really knew how the Hydrogen gas helped. I keep getting little tid bits but nobody ever offerd to show me something that works yet!

[Towboat Ed]

Keep em coming guys. Im getting underway in a couple days. I will prove it works. I dont have time to argue about the old outdated science or physics. I do appreciate your interest. I will be posting daily results on my website. Since the unit was installed on my boat , there have been 3 major improvements that we will be testing. Please check-out the link to the IHHOI , our "Trade Association"...and on my last page , the Hydrogen Super Highway. One of the major players in that project , is also very involved with our IHHOI......later.

[marshmat]

Im getting underway in a couple days. I will prove it works.
Ed, I think this statement sums up why the whole 'free energy subculture' is completely ignored by everyone else.

A much more objective approach, and one more likely to draw engineers and scientists who may be able to help explain what is going on and why, would be:
"I'm getting underway in a couple of days. I will collect data on fuel burn, speed and engine operating parameters to see whether or not it works."

Whenever someone goes out to "prove it works", all scientific objectivity is lost and it becomes very difficult for anyone to determine what is actually going on. I have no idea how many potentially good inventions we have lost this way over the years, but it's probably a lot.

As an example, there's a company out in B.C. called General Fusion, that might have a technology that could result in a practical fusion power plant hundreds of times less expensive than many current efforts in the field. But they don't say "it works, and we're going to prove it". They say "the concept is physically and mathematically sound, we will now attempt a step-by-step process of experiments to see if our predictions can be realized in practice". Because of this firm theoretical foundation and the absence of extravagant or un-physical claims, they are attracting a lot of research money and media attention.

[kistinie]

HH / OO + diesel or unleaded or GPL ...Combustion complete !

:-)

Full combustion is helped thanks to O², OO, oxygen, added by the electrolyse of water!

Hydrogen works as a catalyse the combustion. Hydrogen finishes combustion of the oil rising final temp
Timing is not affected as "éclair point" of oil under pressure is lower for oil than for hydrogen
Water resulting of the full combustion cools exhaust gases anf then rise air flow


Drawbacks ?
hydrogen escapes and explodes easily
uncontroled gaz production (too much gaz) will damage motor
to prevent this pipes feeding hydrogen to inlet must be equiped with non return fire valve
Hydrogen may be armful to silicon or P.U pipe
Hydrogen MUST be fed by suction not pressure - Hydrogen goes up (smallest and lightest element on earth)
Mix ratio / Rpm / Load control to added hydrogen
Liquid (potassium hydroxide, or sodium carbonate, or soude, and distilled/rain water) to control and refill to run the equipment.
Liquid is caustic, so careful... (but just under 6 grams of "soude" per gall is enough)



Average kit cost : 50 to 1000€

Starts for 50€ if you do all parts yourself
http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/AddWaterV.1.htm


or go shopping:

http://www.gasconversionkits.com/index3.html?gclid=COT0htjhm5oCFQZeswodqHo49w



Hydrogen can also be extracted from metals

http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

[apex1]

Has anyone around here a clue what the post above would tell us?
Knotty was right snakeoil! But that´s a liquid, are there gases with similar qualities?

[marshmat]

Please, enough of this "HHO makes you have more complete combustion" and "HHO is free energy from water from your battery" stuff.

There is not a single engine available for sale in the Western world today that does not already have complete combustion under all normal conditions. Engines that allow incomplete combustion within their normal operating range are flat out illegal under European, Canadian and US emissions laws. And the first and second laws of thermodynamics have been proven, time and time again, from the scale of galaxies right down to the scale of subatomic particles. If someone claims they're being broken or don't apply, the odds are almost certain that it's because the person making the claim simply doesn't understand what their own device is doing.

If anyone wants to discuss these hydrogen gadgets, please do it on a factual, informed basis and present a logical, rational theory for what is happening. Such explanations are definitely out there. Many of them make a lot of sense.

[kistinie]

There is not a single engine available for sale in the Western world today that does not already have complete combustion under all normal conditions. .

And the existing park of engines ?
And the non-western world ?

Hydrogen extraction and injection to motors is a 100% efficient operation any existing engine will benefit rising efficiency of the engine from 30 to 60%
50$ home made Kits, get paid in a month with fuel savings !

About efficiency of hydrogen and more generally gas injection, it works in ANY engine, even GPL.
A rapid search will show you an avalanche of (public domain) patent and sate research about it.

There are 1000's of proof it works
If you disagree, explain technically why

[thudpucker]

Here's what I've learned from these Hydrogen fuel threads.

Hydrogen is a very light gas that can be added to any existing fuel for use in any internal combustion engine.

Hydrogen gas is difficult to store, as it's molecules are so small they will slip through just about any man made storage facility.
For that reason Hydrogen gas is best used in a "Make it now, use it now" system.

Hydrogen gas is explosive. Like any Lighter than air gas, and requires some diligent care in the manufacture and use.

What I have not learned is exactly how the Hydrogen molecules are seperated from the Oxygen molecules. This I'd like to know more about. Just for my own knowlege. I have no intention of making or using this stuff.

If I were to bet on any home made and cheap fuel for the future, I'd go for Algae Diesel.

[kistinie]

Can be produced with DC electricity (electrolyse)
This is the actual simplest solution as it uses basic low cost technology

Or many other ways, including, ocean thermodynamic effect (heat pump), light, bacteria, aluminium-gallium...that requires more skills

[KnottyBuoyz]

Knotty was right snakeoil! But that´s a liquid, are there gases with similar qualities?
Oh, ok, how about "Snake Farts" then? :P

[apex1]

Can be produced with DC electricity (electrolyse)
This is the actual simplest solution as it uses basic low cost technology

Or many other ways, including, ocean thermodynamic effect (heat pump), light, bacteria, aluminium-gallium...that requires more skills

And you do all of that while underway? Electrolysys is "low cost" ? Simple? Have you ever seen a hydrogen plant?
And before you ask for a proof of common knowledge, what about a proof of the nonsense you posted about 1000´s of systems working efficient? All the industry and all of us boatbuilders are proven idiots? Just mr. kistinie is right?
I say it again: YOU ARE A DREAMER

[kistinie]

I say it again: YOU ARE A DREAMER

Yes i am !!!

:D

Most of dreams come true.

Cheers !


PS:
Look at this sophisticated hydrogen plant !
I guess the V2 and next will be terrific coupled to solar or thermoacoustics panels

http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/AddWaterV.1.htm

:P

[apex1]

PS:
Look at this sophisticated hydrogen plant !
I guess the V2 and next will be terrific coupled to solar or thermoacoustics panels

http://quanthomme.free.fr/qhsuite/AddWaterV.1.htm

:P
Sorry no, I do´nt look at your phantasies.

[kistinie]

Sorry no, I do´nt look at your phantasies.

And the clowns are, universities, state research, private patent...

;)

[Towboat Ed]

I dont know about thousands , but I do know there are probably hundreds of systems that do work. I attended the HHO Games & Exposition in Bradenton Fl in Nov. & again in Feb.of this year. Check out the links below. The promoter of these shows was told a number of times that this should not be called "games", because there were some very serious inventors present. There were also some "snake oil salesmen" with Junk that did not work.Many were dissappointed at the results when their unit was tested on "The Bench"...There were also some amazing units that produced large amounts of HHO. The test Bench belongs to the builder of the unit that is now on my boat. As a matter-of-fact, with the exception of the Flow Tubes, the unit on my boat is, electronically identical to the bench used at the show.....You can see The Bench in operation at the other link posted below. I am in some of the pics on both sites, I am the good-looking one. I have working relationships with several of these inventor/builders, and am working with the IHHOI to grow the industry...til later, Capt.Ed www.water4fuel4boats.com
www.hhogames.com
http://energyshowandtell.wetpaint.com/page/MileageSeekersHHO

[thudpucker]

Whoa up here guys. I just wanted someone to send me a link to the process. Just how is the seperation done.:)

I got this from a guy on another site. Its a demonstration from yesteryears but I think its the 'current' way its being done. Just the details are different.
Its those Details I want to SEE for myself.

Read this:
I separated hydrogen when I was a kid. If I remember correctly all I used was two carbon rods from old D cells covered by test tubes and connected to an old train transformer. I figure a 12v battery or charger would work. Anyway you just invert the test tubes or other small glass container over the carbon rods and immerse the whole thing in water and watch as the water is pushed down inside the glass. One side will have hydrogen the other oxygen. The way to tell is see which one burns but be careful as it might go bam instead of pop if you collect too much hydrogen. I am not sure if you need carbon maybe any electrodes would work.

[thudpucker]

Oh, ok, how about "Snake Farts" then? :P

Rick you get a little on the rasty side when your stuck on the beach eh?

[kistinie]

Very radical approach
Very new

To experiment ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLgtl2p5KM&feature=related
http://divadjac.googlepages.com/alexbook

[marshmat]

Proof n. v. & adj. facts, evidence, argument, etc. establishing or helping to establish a fact.....

Claim v. & n. represent oneself as having or achieving; a contention or assertion......

If you disagree, explain technically why
Show me where I claimed that hydrogen in an engine doesn't work. To the best of my knowledge I have never made such a claim.

I have commented on many of these hydrogen fuel threads over the last few years. In all cases, I have taken one of two approaches:

1) Shoot down a clearly wrong or inaccurate claim, or a clearly false explanation of what a device does. I do this when I see things like:
"you can get free energy by using your battery to turn water into hho then burn that in your engine"
"you can run your car on water using free energy from the vacuum ether"
"it is so advanced it is beyond what any conventional engineer or physicist can understand"
"conventional thermodynamics doesn't apply"

2) Ask the person making the claim for a more thorough explanation and additional test data. I do this when I see things like:
"injecting a small amount of hydrogen along with the normal fuel improves combustion"
"this device resulted in a 30% fuel savings in my car"

(Note that I can get a 50% fuel savings in my own car, simply by changing how I shift and how hard I accelerate. Claims of fuel savings, without scientific evidence and a plausible physical explanation, are just empty claims.)

There is a distinct difference. In the former case, the person making the claim is clearly not understanding their own device or what it does, and is so far out in dreamland that no rational explanation is likely to be found. In the latter case, the person making the claim may have something right, but either doesn't know exactly why it works, thinks they know but have something wrong, or simply don't have enough test data to know.

Let me quote myself from another thread, on the subject of what might actually be happening in a hydrogen-enriched combustion chamber. This is speculation, of course, but is based on sound physical principles and the known properties of hydrogen-oxygen combustion reactions. Most credible university and corporate research in hydrogen-enriched hydrocarbon combustion is based on some variant of the explanation below.
Hydrogen has an extremely high burn velocity, and will burn at much leaner ratios than most hydrocarbons. Thus, it is possible that the addition of trace amounts of hydrogen serves to cause a rapid, hot flame to move away from the ignition point faster than the main flame front, igniting the hydrocarbon fuel as it goes. The combustion time would thus be shortened, which would tend to increase the peak pressure, and thus the IMEP, BMEP and torque, for a given RPM and fuel mass. A higher peak pressure leads to a higher peak temperature and higher thermal efficiency. It is also conceivable that this would allow for a leaner mix, although that would cause NOx problems and screw up a catalytic converter if one is fitted.

So improving efficiency by injecting small amounts of hydrogen to accelerate combustion is plausible and possibly beneficial. "Run your car on water", ie. using hydrogen generated by on-board electrolysis as the primary or only fuel, is clearly not plausible.

The question thus becomes: Given a particular engine running on hydrocarbon fuel, does the increase in power output that results from a faster combustion speed offset the 0.2 to 0.3 kW that is required to generate trace amounts of hydrogen? And by how much?

The way to find out would be to use an engine set up for dyno testing with an in-cylinder pressure transducer. Comparison of the cylinder pressure curves running on pure gasoline and with a few percent (say up to 10%) hydrogen blended in would certainly reveal exactly what benefit, if any, the concept has.

It is not at all difficult to efficiently produce hydrogen and oxygen from water. This is century-old technology, and the energy you recover by burning the hydrogen is always- ALWAYS- less than the amount of electrical energy used to separate that hydrogen in the first place. Thus, any on-board electrolysis scheme will have a net negative energy balance. To bring this balance positive (and thus have some benefit in fuel savings), the combustion process must be sufficiently accelerated (compared to normal hydrocarbon-only combustion) that the increase in the area bounded by the cycle P-V curve outweighs the energy used to separate the hydrogen in the first place.

Believe me, hydrogen-enhanced combustion will be taken seriously as soon as people stop claiming it's "free energy" and instead devote their efforts to understanding exactly what the effect on the combustion process is. When people claim "I use my battery to make hydrogen from water so I use less (or no) fuel" without knowing what is actually happening, the entire field takes a big credibility hit.

On-board hydrogen generation from metal alloys, borohydrides, etc. is simply a way of substituting a different fuel source other than gasoline.

[Towboat Ed]

Thank you MM. You are right in post #9...I should have re-worded it. I agree 100%. You obviously understand the whole process better than I do, and I mean this sincerely. But, I am learning every day. Please give me your take on this quote that I heard somewhere..."Conservation-of-energy does not apply, because you are adding energy to the equasion with the chemical reaction ."

[kistinie]

with a 160watts (1.6mx0,8m) max solar panel ...you get free energy :p
With a battery...all day !
Energy for electrolyse is solar or wind...
FREE

Cheers

[apex1]

Thank you very much MATT for your valuable explanations.
I fear they will remain unheard by our "specialists" which are able to produce Hydrogen "cheap and simple" (never heard about negative energy balance), increase torque by 50%, and run their boats more efficient than we idiots do.

I do´nt have the patience and I´m for shure not polite enough to reply in such a nice manner to childish statements of total laymen. I must earn my living as a developer by making honest, proven, and straight forward calculations and statements, politeness is not asked for.
And as a boatbuilder I am responsible for the safety and (sometimes) for the life of my customers. Unmature claims, dreams or wishes of a client are refused in a frank, honest, straight forward and therefore usually unpolite manner. They have to love it or leave it.

So our irrational, childish, uneducated smartasses have to love it or leave it that their claims are based on phantasy (as knotty mentioned "snake fart" in this case, `cos snakeoil is liquid).

quote kistinie:
with a 160watts (1.6mx0,8m) max solar panel ...you get free energy
With a battery...all day !
Energy for electrolyse is solar or wind...
FREE
qoute end

Yeahh and I´ve forgotten... PV naturally is "energy for free" as is the battery, inverter, charger and so on! THEY ARE NOT TO CURE ! ! ! just kids playing in a adult playground and wasting our time and effort.

Regards
Richard

[marshmat]

"Conservation-of-energy does not apply, because you are adding energy to the equasion with the chemical reaction ."
Conservation of energy always applies. Sometimes, though, it's not very obvious, and even the best engineers often spend many hours trying to figure out exactly where all the energy is going.

Energy can be tied up, or stored, in chemical bonds. Chemical reactions rearrange the atoms and the bonds between them. If, after the reaction, the total energy tied up in bonds is less than it was before, the rest comes out as heat or light. An example is the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen:
2 H2 + O2 -> 2 H2O
The enthalpy of formation of water is negative: there is less energy tied up in the bonds in the water than in the molecular hydrogen and oxygen. Thus, this reaction releases heat.
We can reverse this reaction:
2 H2O -> 2 H2 + O2
which is what happens in a working electrolysis cell. Because we are changing these atoms from a low energy state to a higher energy state, we must add energy. Not coincidentally, we have to add the exact same amount of energy as was liberated in the combustion process.

Since no process is perfectly efficient (damned entropy getting in the way), there are always losses, tiny though they may be. So in the electrolysis, we have to put a bit more energy in- maybe 110% of what we theoretically should have to put in- because some of that energy will inevitably do something we don't want it to do, like heating up the water.


Solar energy does not come from nowhere, and is not free. Working backwards:
We get electricity....
which comes from a potential bias across a p-n junction.....
which is created when electrons get kicked out of their proper places by photons...
which have been travelling through space for about eight minutes since they were emitted from the outer layers of the sun....
where they were emitted by the radiative decay of an electron from an excited to a lower state in some random atom....
because that electron had been kicked into a higher state by thermal energy....
which came from yet another photon, this one a high-energy gamma....
that had been emitted from deeper within the sun and carried the energy equivalent of a small amount of mass.....
that had been converted to energy during the fusion of two hydrogen nuclei.

The free energy from your solar panel started out as a little bit of a subatomic particle somewhere deep inside the sun. Not so free after all :)

[kistinie]

Solar energy is not free of course, but once paid for it...it's free energy (natural short cut after using it for years...sorry)

Do you think we can count on industry to give us a motor running for a third of the actual needed energy ?
No, to struggling for the economy that refuses this kind of fast changes.
The deal is for less money and a new explosive gas to generate:P



Almost any injection of water, O², H², butane, propane, to any engine inlet show important improvements.
Water to outlet works too.

All this devices can co generate, recycle water from exhaust (Renault patent 2005)

About what is science, what is not, please remember other anomalies exist :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

So being open is a kind of, minimum, if we want to progress.

Ether from Tesla, and other joe cell, should be studied, just like space: aware (JCVD)

[apex1]

Solar energy is not free of course, but once paid for it...it's free energy (natural short cut after using it for years...sorry)
Do you think we can count on industry to give us a motor running for a third of the actual needed energy ?
No, to struggling for the economy that refuses this kind of fast changes.
The deal is for less money and a new explosive gas to generate:P
Almost any injection of water, O², H², butane, propane, to any engine inlet show important improvements. This is the plain postive nuisance! As usual.
Water to outlet works too.
All this devices can co generate, recycle water from exhaust (Renault patent 2005)
About what is science, what is not, please remember other anomalies exist :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
So being open is a kind of, minimum, if we want to progress.
Ether from Tesla, and other joe cell, should be studied, just like space: aware (JCVD)


Do you think all the industry is married and they stick together to impede progressive technology? There is no competition forcing them to go new paths if there is only a few percent of improvement? You´re a child.

One third of the energy? You mean 33% ?
I know for long Kistinie you are from outer space, I did not know from how far away.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Rick you get a little on the rasty side when your stuck on the beach eh?
Dropped it in the drink this afternoon Thud. :D

Blowing a gale out there though and the channel isn't buoyed yet. Oh well, plenty of last years spider crap to clean off the ole boat. Ohhhhhh and yeah I gotta install that hydrogen generator thingy too! :P

[marshmat]

Almost any injection of water, O², H², butane, propane, to any engine inlet show important improvements. Water to outlet works too.
Yup, giving an engine fuel and oxygen is generally an improvement over giving it nothing.

We use gasoline and diesel oil because they're convenient to store and easy to refine from stuff we learned how to drill out of the ground many decades ago. Not because they're the best or most efficient fuels to use for a given cycle. There are many ways to improve combustion in an engine. Unfortunately, most of them require that you know what you're doing, can measure cylinder pressure and temperature directly, and can manipulate the ECU. Simply spraying an unmetered quantity of some random combustible substance into the intake is usually not an effective way of improving an engine.

[apex1]

Simply spraying an unmetered quantity of some random combustible substance into the intake is usually not an effective way of improving an engine.

Yepp, but can improve the acceleration impressively Matt!






.



that of the whole engine naturally.

[rasorinc]

Do you guys recommend putting Nitrous on a boat engine?

[apex1]

On no engine Stan!

[KnottyBuoyz]

NO2 is used on drag boats all the time. It's not a fuel though, it's an oxidizer. It's not usually randomly injected either but metered to meet the demand.

I can attest to the fact that it indeed "Kicks you in the a$$" when you push that lil' red button! :D

[kistinie]

Do you think all the industry is married and they stick together to impede progressive technology? There is no competition forcing them to go new paths if there is only a few percent of improvement? ....

A few % !!!!
I perfectly understand that it is the aim, the maximum acceptable rate to prevent the castle to collapse :D

Competition doesn't exist on this level for industry

Prices and market attributions are decided in nice board rooms, not by the best technology available.
New technology, new actors of this technology are rather problems to solve.
Remember Tesla and JP MORGAN...Solution = Destruction of Tesla

Our industry is very deeply corrupted.

Oil : My father did this corruption for Exx.., for 30 years
Electricity: I did this for Vin.. for 15 years.

So please ...

[kerosene]

there are few options how this could/should work.

1) you can create hydrogen with less energy than can be recovered by burning it. The energy taken from alternator and braking down the engine is LESS than the energy received by the engine from the burn. The margin should be quite substantial as a diesel engine has only efficiency of 35% range at its favorite rpm.

2) it would some how magically improve the existing combustion (with kydrogen I guess - wikipedia hasn't heard of kydrogen but I am sure its a conspiracy).

How ever one has to understand why engine has such low efficiency. The reason is not incomplete combustion in any sense. There is the valve train that has to be spun - you make work against the valve springs and various frictions. The piston is not capable of capturing even nearly all the pressure created by the combustion.
If your HHO powered (or assisted) machine would gain huge amount in efficiency I assume that the radiator can be removed - as there should be no exessive heat. Exhaust must be pretty cool too.

If you would double your mpg (as some HH0 people claim - or even claim dropping the consumption by 90%) you would definitely be creating net energy - as there is still the work to be done. Even if some weird way (not possible with current engine geometries) the engine's efficiencies did go up and there was no wasted heat you would still need to do the work - push car or boat or what ever the engine was set to do.

To gain of 90% would suggest that a car that uses 20kw at 40mph cruising wouldn't be getting 40mpg but 400mpg - so there would be conventional energy of about 2 kw left.
The rest 18kw would have to come from burning hydrogen - created by the electrolysis - powered by alternator - powered by the engine - powered by the hydrogen. See what I am getting at. It would mean that you could recover several multitude of energy from the hydrogen compared to what it takes to create it.

Before someone can EXPLAIN where and on what principle the extra energy is created this is a nonsensical perpetual machine.

Again if this would work - some greedy mofo would have built a backyard powerplant or two. Screw burning it in otto engine - make a proper powerplant running with hydrogen. The best part is that you can make closed circuit - exhaust is collected back as water and can be split again to hydrogen. Awesome - except real life electrolysis has pretty bad efficiency - and HHO people suggest efficiency of over 100% (more like 600-900%)

Above is described the reasons for our "narrow minded" mindset. I have not seen a single explanation on where the energy comes from? Everyone is proving something they cannot explain - goes back to the earlier posts of how science is made
"we think thing A is going to happen based on principles B - now lets test it..."
Here we have a group Proving thing A happens - "because I think so but I can't quite verbalize it." "...oh but it is revolutional"

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. Except just ordinary proofs would do.

[kistinie]

I made the test myself with butane and hydrogen on a 35 years old stationary diesel motor at, idle driving a constant load (friction plate with dynamo meter)

Torque x2 at low rev, (not tested at full speed)
Oil burnt should be less, but not measured yet
Very clean burning

Guest of the test : My friends, that are farmers, engineer, or fishermen
Not magical, just great and low cost improvement for existing motors.
Extraordinary ? Yes for 5 minutes, when you discover how deep you are fuc.. by industry

And again, Water, HYDROGEN or BUTANE injected catalyse the combustion process for full combustion, so energy balance is not only addition
Water gives also a mechanical effect by reducing exhaust gas volume, so increasing air flow

Additional solution to lower diesel consomption is to add 5% of unleaded and 100ml of acetone for 60 Litter ...but personally only tested Vegetal oils (colza) with 10% decrease (5 to 4.5 /100L)
Vegetable oil really reduces consumption

[kerosene]

oh I am sure you can use gas as fuel - I just can't believe you can create the gas for free.

[kistinie]

is free ?

No of course but given for free most of the time.

Labour to get the gas is what you pay for. So in a way, it is not free, but you get free from oil

Not free just like for the oil company that make you pay transport, extraction, advertising, taxes, corruption, but not really the oil.


So i agree, in a way, it isn't free ;-), you just change the jail, but a jail where you now have the keys

[kerosene]

using human and other waste for biogas is totally different topic. All for it if it can be feasibly collected. Using waste vegetable oil - great idea too etc.

However it has nothing to do with the hydrogen creation systems discussed here.

[kistinie]

is having power, energy, trust, with the less total overall cost using existing devices and "free" products like sun and water
subject is using much less oil by hydrogen help

[mydauphin]

kistinie, you must be from France.
When you go to the baker does he give you bread for free.
The wheat is cheap, it comes from solar energy.
But it has labor, he needs to support his family, his mistress.
and if he adds too much water to flour the bread is no good....
Same with engines, energy, laws of economics, physics....
Go back to school and study physics, economics, thermodynamics, friction.

[apex1]

Its hopeless mydauphin he is completely mad and has no idea what he is talking about.

[kistinie]

I'm completely mad
Your are well behaved

All is needed to make a world

Maths and nuclear physics again just like when i was 20 ?
If i have enough money why not, will make me feel younger !


So i return to school ...and you will be the teacher, i guess ?
A car runs with fuel...Repeat after me : FUEL !!!

Kistinie, punished, i said fuel not hydrogen and sun.



Tell this also to Yull Brown, Stanley Meyer that are pioneers of hydrogen with ice and all mathematician and astrophysicists studying black energy as ...they do not respect universal gravitation !

And a proton, can you show me one ?
No, but they exist.


Please open you eyes or at least do not close the other's eyes.

[marshmat]

And a proton, can you show me one ?
No, but they exist.
Yes, I can show you one. I can calculate, to fifteen decimal places, exactly what the properties of a proton should be and how it should behave in a given experiment. Then I can strip one from its atom, accelerate it, smash it into a bubble chamber, and see exactly- and I mean exactly- the behaviour I predicted to fifteen decimal places before I did the experiment. Never in the history of science have we had a theory as precise or well-proven as the Standard Model. We know it's not the whole story, but it's the best theory we have, and anything that supersedes it will have to explain how the new theory reduces to the Standard Model in all the cases we've seen so far. Just like how quantum mechanics and general relativity both reduce to the Newtonian formulation of mechanics, in the limit of large size and low speed respectively.
Tell this also to Yull Brown, Stanley Meyer that are pioneers of hydrogen with ice and all mathematician and astrophysicists studying black energy as ...they do not respect universal gravitation !

I have several friends who are heading up multi-million dollar labs to measure things like neutrinos, dark matter, etc. They have detailed theories and mathematical models to guide the design of their equipment, and to analyze the data they collect. Please do not offend these top-calibre physicists by comparing them with free energy water car tinkerers.

You will recall, of course, that general relativity- the successor to Newtonian gravitation- is the theory that led to the prediction that the missing mass believed to be accounted for by dark matter and dark energy must exist.

[kistinie]

I really like it better when you talk with facts like this.

You see a trace of a proton passing, not the proton.
But this is not important

So you have seen just like me how a formula right on day (sorry newton and Einstein), gets wrong later.
Mass and energy is missing on galaxies turning too slowly...

If this is able to false gravitation laws, it may contains some energy ?

So why do you mind imaging other proprieties to elements like water or gas, why don't you accept this idea to ad parameter to thermodynamic and physics ?

Really i do not see a lot of difference between research in space and about energy.

Let the experiments live and check the results
Being open doesn't mean idiot accepting anything.

You should rather be enthusiastic with all these open patent about hydrogen and alternatives to fuel ?

[apex1]

Hopeless

[kistinie]

Have you a friend that is a psychiatrist ?
He will explain you that your repeated criticism are based on your personal weaknesses.
In fact you speak of you, not of me
Pathetic isn't it ?

Cheers !


For amateur builders :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktjGViKkwkw&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Be3onS3qQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfG6kyifq30&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fWqVlAfd6Y&feature=related

Rules are not 316 ss i guess, but some good ideas !
shalom !

in a more general way does anyone has technical information on electrolyse and how to rise efficiency.
What is the impact of neutral plates ? Reduce amps, yes, but how ?
What space is the best ? 3, 4 or 5 mm ?

Research shows also 100 bar / 500° gives much better efficiency on electrolyse
For home use, this is not realistic...

[kistinie]

This study is dedicated to H2 solar production from water
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/16/43/92/PDF/C8.pdf

Bringing H² to the engine from a H² bottle works great (just like LPG, in fact)
Solar production of H² on the fly is of course bringing energy to an engine but will need big solar panels to get enough H². Roughly 10 amps/12v can give 1 litre per minute
A 0.350 Litre engine like the Yanmar 1GM10 (9hp) will get aprox. 150Litre air per minute at 1000 Rpm, so, i let you imagine the moderate result. Now, it is not negative or unnecessary as at least the particles emission reduces, and amps can be increassed a lot with a good wind/solar installation

In the case of production from a car alternator my personal test let me think the benefit may be much more reduced, and stability of the electrolyse amps is far from evident...
For this reason i'm afraid that the device to be efficient will need additional batteries to stock solar energy (far less difficult and dangerous than stocking H²), so additional weight or ....Dangerous compressed H² bottles.
In the case of an hybrid boat with a very small ICE and a big electric power, this could make sense when batteries are full to keep on producing energy under the form of H².

[mydauphin]

This FORUM is about boats, not Mad, Weird or Cutting edge theory. BOATS
:eek:

[kistinie]

This FORUM is about boats, not Mad, Weird or Cutting edge theory. BOATS
:eek:

Ah Ah Ah

FORZA ITALIA !!!
But you should have put more white in the middle.

Do you think using colour and big police will give you ideas more weight ?

You make me think to my young cousin trying to impose his ideas by shouting, his face turning green to finish red.
He is 4 :D

And Yanmar is a chocolate cake maker ?

Thank you for this fun time ! Realy you are lightening my day.

Kind regards !

[plebusmaximus]

NO2 is used on drag boats all the time. It's not a fuel though, it's an oxidizer. It's not usually randomly injected either but metered to meet the demand.

I can attest to the fact that it indeed "Kicks you in the a$$" when you push that lil' red button!

It allows for the "greater" burning of fuel in the same space, however longevity of a very expensive engine isn't likely.

[M-Sasha]

Do you think using colour and big police will give you ideas more weight ?

You make me think to my young cousin trying to impose his ideas by shouting, his face turning green to finish red.
He is 4 :D



Do YOU think repeating your unproven, unmature and silly ideas does give them ANY weight?

And you are like your cousin, maybe some four or five years older. Well it´s all in the genes, is it?

Sasha

[kistinie]

Do not mix the subject and the writer


H² producing is an immature technology, yes it can be said.

H² is unproven ...To you and a few... only !

H² is silly...No this gas is just dangerous, and light. Silly gas ? No sorry i do not understand.


Please stop doing soup with this subject, mixing all the ideas instead of splitting the problem in smaller problems. Remember René DESCARTES please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_on_the_Method



Now if it make you feel much better, keep on insulting me ;-)
Oh ! By the way, did you read the last line on plebusmaximus post ?


To come back to the subject and be more constructive, who knows how H² can be compressed and stocked once produced by electrolyse ?

[mudman]

When are you going to prove us wrong kistinie? I really hope that you build your dream boat and prove us wrong. Until then, could you please stop filling up the forums with nonsense? That's right.........Meaningless nonsense.

If you want to talk about boats, I'd be more than happy to oblidge. If you want to talk about changing the laws of physics, please go to a science forum. I am here for facts, not immature ideas.

[kistinie]

What is wrong with using H² on a boat ?
Electrolysing water, burning H², compressing H², is respecting the low of physics.


Where is the nonsense ?
Did H² stole your wife or your money ? No
So what have you got to be so upset with this subject ?

The danger of explosion ?


Sorry but your opposition is arbitrary, not based on facts
I'm sorry if a few of you feel unhappy with this molecule, but this is not my problem.

H2 is a solution to stock energy without weight, so in this spirit is is an interesting way to study

[kerosene]

Ok Kristinie
Lets clear this. And lets try to be precise instead of mixing all kinds of concepts.

If you disagree with following points please explain why

1. Modern gasoline and diesel engines burn practically all fuel in the combustion. Low efficiency is not due to unburned fuel but due to lost work and heat.

2. Electrolysis has existed as a known way of creating hydrogen for over 100 years.

3. Creating hydrogen with electrolysis takes more energy than is possible to recover by burning it.

4. In models of "hydrogen society" hydrogen acts like a battery. It is being created with solar/wind/nuclear and used as portable fuel for transportation.

5. Modern computer controlled engine does pretty good job adjusting the mixture under different loads. Adding meaningful amount of extra fuel would require adjustments to the computer.


That would be a great start in clearing the discussion. Number 1 is crucial because the HHO folks (who work under their grand international association) tend to lie that engines only burn 30% of the fuel.

"Reduce your Carbon Footprint !! HHO reduces Harmful Emmisions by up to 90% !!" - from www.water4fuel4boats.com

A common suggestion is that the added hydrogen will help burn the mixture faster and hotter. Well hotter is not good - why do we have egr systems? When there is a really hot burning going on the nitrogen in air starts to burn and create nitrogen oxides - which are bad pollutants, Modern engines fight against this.

[kistinie]

i agree on the 5 points you brought.

But the world isn't black or white

A : Old engines exists.
Marine engine existing on actual boats, are not the most modern engines or earth.
More generally take my example
My citroen is 20 Years and only 300.000 Km
My mercedes German army truck i use for building my houses is 42 years
My Yanmar is 12 years (conception is 30 years)

On them addition of H² or butane or propane give an important increase of the efficiency of combustion and lower particle pollution.
This is a simple solution for old existing engine.


B : At 150$ the baril, electrolysing H² is competitive
150$ will be back in a few months, a few years.

C : A sailing boat with regeneration from a propeller will be able to produce a lot of energy, so a lot of H² by simple electrolyse.
Stocking H² in MgH2 will be totally safe (Cocorico ! French CNRS patent ! )

So talkinf of H² for a sailing boat is very realistic and can have some great applications, don't you think ?

[kerosene]

B : At 150$ the baril, electrolysing H² is competitive
150$ will be back in a few months, a few years.


But that its not what is being sold to us. We are not being sold equipment that will reduce fuel cost by 150$ in months or a year. We are being sold miraculous equipment that is misrepresented* and that is supposed to save me thousands instead of 150$



* TYPICAL MARKETING LIES
1) Fuel doesn't burn fully - our equipment helps that happen - reduce carbon footprint by 30-90% - reduced carbon emissions equal reduced fuel consumption.
2) electrolysis is represented as some kind of hidden secret when it is nothing like that. "But you can't burn water are you crazy?! But now you can"-type of marketing is clearly targeted to people who have NO CLUE.


You call me black and white - at least I take time to explain my point instead of brushing it of with one sentence and then introduce something totally irrelevant.

You should also check the link in the 1st page of this thread - I am still missing the daily updates on the testing starting May 2nd...
http://www.water4fuel4boats.com/8.html

Now I am out of this discussion.

[floydrob]

would it not be more efficient to run a trawler on biofuel? use used vegetable oil and for every litre add 5ml of non kerosine turpentine, leave to sit for a week and works out as 3p per litre!!

otherwise, electorlysing water to produce hydrogen isnt the problem, it's running it through an engine! if you use h2 gas it will leak and explode due to it being so volatile. it needs to be in liquid form to be safe hence, petrol or deisel...they are both hydrocarbons.

AND, electrolysing pure water is highly inneficient as it is not an ionic substance. therefor you need to add an electrolyte such as calcuim chloride, in w2hich casy you would get chlorine gas given off along with oxygen at the positive electrode and a large yeild of hydrogen gas at the negative electrode. chlorine is poisonous!

requires a huge amount of research and in the end, the cost outweigh the savings.

as i say, biofuel is probs the best way forward for a trawler. deisel engines are used for a reason...the torque. dont sacrafice that by using more dangerous hydrogen

[mudman]

How will you store this Hydrogen/Oxygen mix on a boat kistinie? Did someone explain pressurized HHO already? I think it was about 6 or maybe 10 pages back. You did not pay attention there either did you. I keep waiting for you to give us something new, but alas, I am disappointed every time.

You would really go through all of this trouble to put hydrogen into a generator? Are we still talking about a generator kistinie? Probably not. You change subject every second. I too need to see things in super x ray (or possible rainbow vision) rather than black and white I guess.

Lets just say that we are now talking about a petrol engine powering a boat. Exactly how much will this save you? Let's count the ways. There is a big risk of explosion, it is too inefficient, and also expensive for little to no gain. If you try this childrens experiment inside the confined space of a hull, and then capture an explosive mixture of hydrogen mixed with oxygen, I think that you will blow yourself up. (one could only be so lucky). I would discourage anyone from attempting such a dangerous and dumb idea. No mattter what you say kistinie, it is dangerous, and it is dumb. I nor does anyone else (I hope) suggest it.

You may change your idea for your next post, and then come back to it 5 or 6 pages later and submit it again.......and again. This reoccuring scenario is making me believe that you have no want to share or gain any knowledge with anyone.

A few others have already bailed on you and your ramblings. I will now join kerosene and the rest, and entertain you no longer.

[apex1]

A few others have already bailed on you and your ramblings. I will now join kerosene and the rest, and entertain you no longer.

A wise idea, pretty late though.;)

[thudpucker]

kerosine, I'm gonna PM you on one of your points. I think your right, but I'm having a devil of a time understanding why....I'll explain later. No point in extending this batch of unfounded arguments in the forum.

[floydrob]

now hold on...this is what the world needs...ideas!!! and running en engine on hydrgen is not a bad one at that! it just needs thought. engines run on hudrocarbons containng hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen burns, carbon is oxidised into carbon dioxide (then theres all the other sh*t in the air that is also oxidised to give things like sulpher dioxide and ntrogen dioxide)

if we remove the carbon from the equation...what does hydrogen burt to producee?? WATER!! pure H20

and it does work! i have run my lawnmower on hydrogen which i made by placing electrodes from a car battery into a solution of baking soda and distilled water...it ran great, but with the occasional backfire or small pop outside the engine

IF on a bigger scale, this could potentially be life threatening!

only way to find out is to experiment, but on small scale!. get yourself an old lawnmower and make some hydrogen...if you dont know how to collect it, you use downward displacement of water (collecting bottle filled with water inside tub of water upside down, place negative electrode underneath so bubbles rise into bottle)

few tips...use carbon (graphite form) electrodes, and if you can find them use a honeycomb structure for greater surface area. the voltage produce fro the spark plug is about 20'000volts, but next to no amps, so if you want a continuous cycle, try adding another coil to the engine, or a dynamo, and get an inverter to change the high voltage-low current to low voltage-high current. just remember, energy cannot be created or lost, the amount of nergy that goes in will be the amount of energy that comes out...you are simply converting stored energy to movement via heat.

water has plenty of stored energy...it is possible with a good system to run a vehicle purely on water VIA electrolysis VIA dynamo (not alternator as DC is needed)) and this has been done by a japanes company, but that is with VERY efficient technology

[apex1]

now hold on...this is what the world needs...ideas!!!


Yes of course





.










.
unfortunately the world needs mature ideas, not rainbowdust.....

[kistinie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_hydride

This is not a dream, but a true, hard, chemical reality.

H² is full of promises for a boat.


Now about kit of HHO, telling anything and the contrary...i'm an not responsible of there anarchic talks.
The only thing i see, is that H²O is full of potential, full of interest, and electrolysing, growing fast.

Please understand that i have distance with the subject, and I'm not doing any crusade form this manufacturer, or that product.


The only thing you can keep in mind of what is a hard beleive for me, is that peak oil is now, and that we will need to keep oil for noble uses, like production of composites, plastics, aramide and burning it is stupid, is to my eyes a prehistoric behaviour.


i think that it will be possible, very soon, to have a sailing boat, recharging batteries with wind, sun, and regeneration from sailing giving a 100% autonomy without oil. H² is one important key for this.
A boat gives a much better space and the weight carrying possibility than a car.
Not searching hard in this kind of direction is being a fool, if not criminal, to our future.
And this is totally disconnected from global CO² warming, that i do not beleive in at all.

[FAST FRED]

"The only thing you can keep in mind of what is a hard beleive for me, is that peak oil is now"

I hope your are young enough to enjoy that statement 5 or 10 decades from now.

Peak oil is a concept , that may come , SOMEDAY, buy its far far in the future.

The huge CA$H now being dumped into all forms of "alternate" energy will perhaps produce the solution, better energy storage.

If you could drive your car 400 miles at the same speeds and standard of living you now enjoy , and recharge in under 2 min , probably the Nuke power plants would be the power source.

When that happens , "peak oil" will be as interesting as "Peak Coal" (300 to 500 years away).

Oil will be in lubricants (perhaps ) and plastic , so our GRP style boat construction will still be here.

Live Long and Prosper,

FF

[kistinie]

Peak oil will be a all night discussion as everybody is lying on numbers :rolleyes:
We can also make oil with coal, it is true.
But the problem is on exponential demand.
1,2,3,4...5 or 6 % increase a year is giving exp increase. No way to go out of this maths !

And when you see the actual cost of carbon fiber, aramide and other petrol based high tech. products already very expensive today, just imagine the future, with oil 2 or 3 times more expensive


And one thing is clear : There will be no H² peak, and no solar peak !
So it would be more than wise to do very big efforts to go in this direction.

This is the reason why i like this subject "hydrogen trawler"
Hydrogen boat...smells good...Got good taste as would have said the regretted Lux Interior

[kistinie]

One project stopped.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/science/earth/08energy.html?_r=2

The project of coal to gas starts much earlier than i would have thought and CO² swindle goes on...

[Karl2]

I'm going to be un-polite and say that this is not a very interesting tread. Fascinating - Yes. Interesting - No.

Something is terribly wrong with this picture: A "hydrogen device" costing as little as 50 EURO can improve a combustion engines efficiency with 30-60%.

If that was scientifically correct, factual and proven why are not CAT, Cummins, Volvo, MTU on this technology like flies on you-know-what ??

Karl2

[marshmat]

Because, Karl, the Illuminati and the Scientific Establishment are masterminding a conspiracy to keep the secrets of free energy from nowhere suppressed!

[Karl2]

Exactly what I suspected....

[floydrob]

just had a nifty idea tho...although it requires alot of electricity to electrolyse pure water, a greater yeild of hydrogen can be got if the water is acidic, i.e. carbonic acid/nitric acid/sulphuric all have high hydrogen ion concentrations, and carbon dioxide, sulpher dioxide and nitrogen dioxide ALL come from the exhaust of any combustion engine, with the exception of carbon dioxide from a hydrogen powered engine.

why not have exhaust from the deisel and hydrogen engines bubbling through water, this water then reacts with the 'dioxides' to give acidic soutions...lots of free hydrogen ions, but then to turn the hydrogen ions int o hydrgen gaseous molecules, u need to add electricity. this can be done well if you run a dynamo from the hydrogen engine, and a dynamo from the deisel engine...then when the hydrogen level falls below a level, turn it off and power up the deisel engine, this will electrolyse a store of hydrogen and boost the carbon dioxide into the water to give carbonic acid, then the hydrogen engine can be restarted using the supply of hydrogen gas and will be added to as the hydrogen continues to be produced as it is burned

this is a do-able system, it is just weather on not the efficiency of the components will be sufficient to keep the hydrogen topped up. and hence how often the deisel will have to be used instead

[kistinie]

Here are some results comming from my own test:

Injecting propane and Hydrogen (approx 10 to 20%) to an old yanmar 1 GM 10 give much torque increasse, less noise and an important reduction of particles emited.

Electrolysing water (with sodium hydroxyde) from a battery at 25 amps and injecting H² / O² this into a 1.9 turbo mechanical diesel pump XU citroen engine ...does nothing on fuel per Km.
I will measure the particles emited with and without but i'm afraid it will be very similar.
As combustion is not controled by any electronic on this engine it show clearly that producing H² this way, in this quantity, is not interresting.

On another hand the explosion risk is certain if the device produce H² when engine is not running


So the conclusion is not that the industry is honest, but that some individuals are not too. Telling lies, stealing the others is not only a "big business" sport.

:(:(:(:(:(

For the little history
Intel is the last to be punished here in europe (1 billion)

[Towboat Ed]

But I have had a few setbacks. I did not begin my voyage until May 8th., instead of the 2nd., as I had planned.On the 2nd.day, I measured the fuel to see how much I used on the 1st. day, only to discover that someone has siphoned about 150 gallons out of my tanks, at some point since I filled them two months ago. I have not seen any fuel at a price that I want to pay, along the way, so I probably will not fill-up until I get to Florida, where I have a connection.I cannot calibrate my Flow Scan Guage without filling-up after a couple days running,per manufacturers instructions.Of course, if someone wants to buy my fuel for me, I will do it your way. / ha ha/ Lots of good ideas here. I would like to state here, for the record, that my Hydrogen-On-Demand system produces H2, ONLY when the engine is producing OIL PRESSURE. It WILL NOT POWER-UP unless the relay is activated by 2 OIL PRESSURE SWITCHES. If the oil pressure ceases, the H2 production ceases. This design has been patented, although not by myself. If anyone thinks that I am just trying to make a fast buck here---you are wrong. I am doing this because I want to--not for the money. I posted the prices on my website only because I had people asking How Much ? I do not care if I sell 1 unit or not. I am retired & having fun doing what I want to do. I will start posting resultson my site as soon as I can..........

[apex1]

Very important, and very interesting statements!!!!!
and the artificial point of view.. I love that! True.
But from a scientifical part of the drama, I must say, you are a dreamer and cheater as all of your predecessors.
Not a single figure that we could measure!
But for shure, you have proven what you wanted to proof, IT WORKS!

[thudpucker]

I wish you well Ed. I hope it works for you.
I can envision an engine starting on Gasoline or Diesel, and running on H-Gas.

If you make it work, I'd like to see how I could do it as a Fisherman in my little Jon boat with a 5 Hp Briggs.

FLoydrob says he did that. I'd be ever so grateful if somebody'd help me out with the project.

[Guido Fawlkes]

What a lively Water4Gas forum and I like to add my 2 cents worth.

As a qualified Marine Engineer (B.o.T. UK) I have worked with diesel engines (up to 21,000bhp on 80,000ton tankers) as well as quite a few inventors for most of my life.
Lets get the inventors out of the way quickly. While many do come up with some really brilliant devices, most of them just don't understand the theory behind what they have achieved/discovered. What makes it worse is that they can, generally, never be bothered to research the theory behind their work since they either just know it all or have some considerable contempt for all this theoretical nonsense. This explains some of the more flatulent claims made.

Now to the Water4Gas method and these "the battery supplies the power for the electrolysis", claims as an example.
A car does not need a battery to run. The battery's sole purpose is to start the engine and to store the necessary energy.
It is the alternator/generator, which supplies the electric energy for the ignition and charging of the battery as well as all the other electricity requiring accessories such as, in this instance, the Water4Gas electrolyzer.

Now lets get to the much-misquoted 2nd law of thermodynamics in this context. While it is correct that the energy required to generate the hydrogen is greater than the energy contained in the generated hydrogen, it is equally true that the hydrogen added to the fuel adds to the "more rapid combustion" of the fuel and not necessarily to the, allegedly, more efficient combustion.

Generally, the power required to produce the hydrogen is about 1/4hp. The most likely cause of the claimed mileage gain is the shorter distance of the piston stroke over which the fuel is combusted, leaving a longer distance of the piston stroke to do its work.

Now, why does this cause the engine to operate at a lower temperature? This is related to the rate of heat transfer over time, i.e. shorter burn time equals less heat transferred.
Try this with your fingers on a blow torch; flick your finger through the flame quickly and no harm is done, because the heat transferred over such a short span of time is relatively limited and efficiently dispersed by your body's cooling system. Try the same thing over a longer period of time and more heat is transferred and you will feel the consequences very quickly.

Hydrogen generated (not stored) on board a boat/ship does not pose the same problem as petrol/gasoline for the following reasons:
Petrol/gasoline fumes are heavier than air and tend to stay in the lowest sections of a vessel and are easily ignited. That is why marine petrol/gasoline engines are usually outboard motors with portable outboard tanks.
Diesel fuel does not exhibit these ignition characteristics. Hydrogen, being a lot lighter than air, will rapidly evaporate and disperse. If the hydrogen is only generated while the engine is running and “sucked” into the engine and with a flashback arrestor installed should be perfectly safe.

For more detailed info about add on hydrogen systems you can read these articles http://tinyurl.com/qk8uq2

[mydauphin]

This thread drive me crazy... People coming up with crazy ideas and stating them as fact. First some simple points.
A diesel engines requires how much air? A lot
A typical 200 hp diesel needs like 30,000 cfm of air at full throttle. The little hydrogen producer makes less than 1 cfm of hydrogen. Seriously, guys do you think the diesel even knows that there is that little hydrogen in there. Injecting propane is different because your are injecting gallons of it per minute. Hydrogen is not a very good fuel, if anything it will lower combustion temperatures and reduce total efficiency.

One other point if these hydrogen gizmo were so good.... You all would be billionaires and everyone would be using them .... There is no conspiracy just the laws of thermodynamics, physics and common sense.



Determine the maximum engine horsepower of each machine and multiply the total horsepower (of all of the machines) by 150 CFM.

[FAST FRED]

"That is why marine petrol/gasoline engines are usually outboard motors with portable outboard tanks."

What part of boating have you missed for the past 100YEARS?

Gas engines , car marinizations have been a standard on pleasure boats since the Packards , Sterlings and other purpose built gas marine engines were phased out.

They work great in boats to about 40 ft , where more than 200hp single or 400hp (twin engines) is required.

Advantages cheaper to remove and replace than some industrial diesels are to "tune up".
Service life 1000 hours with a fool and 2000 with a knowledgable owner.And most are 1/2 to 1/4 the weight of a similar HP diesel, which makes plaining easier.

As most pleasure boats run 100 hours a year , if that , 10 to 20 years from a car block is fine.

Efficiency , better than it used to be , IF you are willing to risk electronics , instead of a good carburetor.

The BMW and Mercedes diesels now being marinized are CAR engines , and will have a car engine service life , not the long term life of an industrial diesel, but for 100hrs a year , most say "What Me Worry"?

FF

[mydauphin]

"That is why marine petrol/gasoline engines are usually outboard motors with portable outboard tanks DEPENDS ON SIZE OF BOAT...
My engines are over 10,000 hours and 20 years old... I don't even calculate service life... I rebuild them as needed every 8000 hours...
They don't have any fancy electronics on engines that I can't bypass and run without them anyway.
I love gas outboards for day boats. But the minute you need a boat to travel for several days were weather could change, you need a deeper prop and fuel economy of a diesel.

So don't make blank statements about outboards being the only solution. Outboards of any size are also prone to corrosion and are extremely expensive per hp. Gasoline in a boat is a fire hazard like propane, it is just a matter of how well you handle it. I would never have an inboard gas engine boat any more.

[thudpucker]

I like Guido's explanation. Henry Ford and those guys were long ago replaced by expensive R&D labs. Inventors these days are dreamers like me.

I dont want to invent anything, I just want to put a Hydrogen generator on my little 5Hp Briggs and power a boat with it.

How do I go about it?

[floydrob]

well, u dont know till u try!!! and the only thing pi**in me off about this forum is the amount of naysayers and people sayin the hate the thread...a good we sayin keeps coming to mind "if u dont like the rules, dont play the fuc*in game!" or in metephorical terms, if u hate the thread so much, stop readin it!

as for using sodium hydroxidaeas an electrolyte...please explain!!!??? the hydrogen ion concentration isd like next to none! use an acidic solution with a high hydrogen ion concentration. sulphuric acid/nitric acid etc etc.

as for running a small 5hp briggs, thats exactly what i done, but i had to make and store the hydrogen, if i was to do it again, i'd add a dynamo to the engbine and bring a 12V battrery to keep the hydrogen store (very small) topped up.

if anyone has ever burned hydrogen, u will realise it isnt as dangerous as petrol from a combustion point of view. if you combus hydrogen it quickly pops, barely enough to singe ur eyebrows it's that quick, petrol keeps going as it slowly releases energy

[Guido Fawlkes]

It is human nature to object to anything new, even if it is not and has been known for over 90 years.
In years gone by, the very same naysayers used to incinerate those who claimed the earth was round and not flat. You can still find Flat Earthers in the search engines.

Suffering from a very pedantic heritage I research everything, of interest to me, very thoroughly with an open mind and have learned to sort fact from fiction and 1/2 truths.
You can get the very thorough manuals, with lots of pictures and diagrams, from this site

http://watergas4fuel.com

This system is easiest with diesel engines, which seem to be a natural.
Also older car models not controlled by a computer are easily dealt with. The more recent car models require a few more extras as explained in great detail in the manuals. Personally, I would leave this part of the installation to a more specialized mechanic.

BTW: "usual" means exactly what it says and is a qualifier meaning not all inclusive. I have seen too many inboard petrol/gasoline powered boats go up in flames and losing their buoyancy. Yet I observed the very same people rebuilding their wooden boat with an inboard petrol/gasoline engine. It's just Murphy's Law compounded with indifference.
Of course, diesel engines are more expensive than petrol/gasoline engines. But what is the total cost of a combusted boat?

[thudpucker]

This is just an Aside; When I look at the name, " Guido Fawlkes", I see "Guy Fawlkes"!
I think he was a famous sumpinorother in English history. Thanks for the link.

Floyd, I've seen so far that a person can inject some AC across a tank of water and the bubbles of H-gas are seen boiling off.
So if we capture this boiling mass of bubbles, eventually the pressure of the Bubbles will force the gas toward some escape.
If we make that escape, a portal into the throat of the Carb on this small B&S engine, the H-Gas should go in with the air and be combusted.

OK so far. Now, it has to be metered some way or the little B&S will continue to burn Gasoline and the H-Gas and we'll never know whether we made it run on H-gas or not.

My idea is to make a pressure sensative (needle valve) so that the pressure from the H-gas comes up, it shuts off the Gasoline supply.

Now the B&S is running on pure Hydorgen. Probably not going to run well on pure H-Gas because as a volitile gas, H-Gas is a Wannabe along side Methane and Gasoline etc.
So some trick and fancy metering is gonna be necessary.
Exactly the right amount of H-Gas and Gasoline for the Rpm is the real challenge here.

Also, can the Electrical generator make enough H-Gas for an extended Hi speed run? 3500 Rpm for an hour would be a good test.

[Guido Fawlkes]

The only man known in history to enter parliament with honest intentions.
This could explain why he did not succeed.

[mydauphin]

I believe that Guido Fawlkes is seller of hydrogen powered snake oil. His only posts are Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler is related to http://watergas4fuel.com see below.
Same thing for Towboat ED is also below is his www.water4fuel4boats.com Look at join dates... at what they post about before taking them seriously.
If you guys want to sell your products here, that is fine with me. But please explain to people your ulterior motives. Also explain that these products are no more than your conceptual idea that don't really work. Good Luck guys. Oh, I am working on antimatter power outboard, gets 3 trillions miles per gallon. Want to see my website. http://www.eveonline.com/download/videos/?type=4
==================================================
Views: 1,029
Posted By Guido Fawlkes
Guy Fawlkes

The only man known in history to enter parliament with honest intentions.
This could explain why he did not succeed.
Forum: Hybrid Yesterday, 11:19 PM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Guido Fawlkes
thudpucker: "How to go about it"

It is human nature to object to anything new, even if it is not and has been known for over 90 years.
In years gone by, the very same naysayers used to incinerate those who claimed the earth was...
Forum: Hybrid 05-15-2009, 08:07 AM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Guido Fawlkes
Hydrogen Enhanced Combustion

What a lively Water4Gas forum and I like to add my 2 cents worth.

As a qualified Marine Engineer (B.o.T. UK) I have worked with diesel engines (up to 21,000bhp on 80,000ton tankers) as well as quite...

==========================Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Towboat Ed
My apologies for not posting daily, on my site.

But I have had a few setbacks. I did not begin my voyage until May 8th., instead of the 2nd., as I had planned.On the 2nd.day, I measured the fuel to see how much I used on the 1st. day, only to...
Forum: Hybrid 05-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Towboat Ed
Thank you MM. You are right in post #9...I should...

Thank you MM. You are right in post #9...I should have re-worded it. I agree 100%. You obviously understand the whole process better than I do, and I mean this sincerely. But, I am learning every...
Forum: Boat Design 05-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
I do know there are probably hundreds of systems...

I do know there are probably hundreds of systems that do work. I attended the HHO Games & Exposition in Bradenton Fl in Nov. & again in Feb.of this year. Check out the links below. The promoter of...
Forum: Hybrid 05-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Towboat Ed
I dont know about thousands , but I do know there...

I dont know about thousands , but I do know there are probably hundreds of systems that do work. I attended the HHO Games & Exposition in Bradenton Fl in Nov. & again in Feb.of this year. Check out...
Forum: Boat Design 04-30-2009, 09:08 AM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
Keep em coming guys. I am learning something from...

Keep em coming guys. I am learning something from every post. Obviously some very smart people here. I will be getting underway in a day or two. I will be posting my fuel burn figures daily,good or...
Forum: Hybrid 04-30-2009, 08:39 AM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Towboat Ed
Keep em coming guys. Im getting underway in a...

Keep em coming guys. Im getting underway in a couple days. I will prove it works. I dont have time to argue about the old outdated science or physics. I do appreciate your interest. I will be posting...
Forum: Boat Design 04-22-2009, 08:51 AM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
Boston, I do not have the schematics, but here...

Boston, I do not have the schematics, but here are some pictures of the unit on my boat. I will be sailing in a week or so, for a month or more of cruising & proving he system. All my fuel-burn...
Forum: Boat Design 04-22-2009, 08:36 AM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
MM, I still have not found that site, but Ill...

MM, I still have not found that site, but Ill keep trying cause I know I read it.Here is the link on the City I mentioed..............
...
Forum: Hybrid 04-21-2009, 06:30 PM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Towboat Ed
Hi Rick...the "Test Results" tab, or...

Hi Rick...the "Test Results" tab, or page was just added to my site. by my webmaster, yesterday. Maybe I should have waited until I am ready to leave on the 2-3 month cruise. Thanks for bringing that...
Forum: Boat Design 04-21-2009, 04:36 PM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
MM, I am looking for the website where I read...

MM, I am looking for the website where I read that. It has been a while. In the meantime, while searching for that site, I saw an interesting U-Tube video from another Canadian Company......
...
Forum: Hybrid 04-21-2009, 11:26 AM
Replies: 88
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler
Views: 1,029
Posted By Towboat Ed
Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler

I hope I am not violating any forum rules by posting a link to my website, but is the best way I know to show my Hybrid www.water4fuel4boats.com
If anyone wants to discuss it, I will get back...
Forum: Boat Design 04-21-2009, 08:48 AM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
Most problems relating to the use of Hydrogen are...

Most problems relating to the use of Hydrogen are with storage.With a Hydrogen-On-Demand System, it is never stored, but is used as-it-is-made. It is made by splitting water with Brute Force...
Forum: Boat Design 04-20-2009, 07:16 PM
Replies: 63
hydrogen powered marine engine
Views: 3,346
Posted By Towboat Ed
Hydrogen-on-demand for boats

I am new here. I just found this thread .I realize it is a very old thread, but this technology has advanced tremendously in the last few years, and even in the last few months.If the members here do...

[apex1]

Do you remember this :
I , with ease, can tell a three years old child the theories of the whole universe.
The question is: does it understand?
Contributing here is like the response of a three years old to those theories!?

[kistinie]

What is the decrease on gallons per hour for fuel consumption you feel like considering to accept and say an innovation works ?

20%, 30% more ?

[mydauphin]

Gallons per hour is not the sum total of a decision. I decrease my fuel economy by going to a more restrictive air filter that filter air better and cleanup oil exhaust. My engine room is now cleaner and my engines happier. Also you can save fuel, but burn out your alternator or something else. It is not a matter of just saving fuel. But let me tell you saving 10% in fuel on a properly tune and condition setup is big deal and requires a efficiency increase of a magnitude not something that can be easily done.

[kistinie]

So we could say that a 20% reduction obtained only from the addition of an external device is enough to demonstrate the solution is worth going for.
20% is enough to clear most of external factors that may corrupt measures such as humidity, air temp, fuel quality
This without any other change like a KN fresh air intake or new free flow muffler.
The problem is that it takes time and a rigorous method to do true measures.
Here, we are currently a few ex car racers/engine builders, testing different motors to test different solutions, most being water based
My first personal measures were corrupted by an erratic syphon on tank feeding falsifying refill measure. New test are going on. My friend's smile, i know so well the meaning, tell me to keep on working... If i get undoubted results much over 20%, i get back with more news

[mydauphin]

I used water all the time, when I was a kid. It cools intake air, lower detonation, allowed high compression engine to run on almost regular gas. But ultimately it did not increase fuel economy or efficiency a measurable amount. Something to look at is humidity in air. One of benefits of intercooler beside lowering temperature is removing humidity. Humidity will make you lose horsepower. That is why an engine performs better in cool dry day and not a hot muggy day...

[kistinie]

what is the mechanism involved in humidity removing of an inter cooler ?
refreshing air rise humidity % no ?
Where does this water go ?

[mydauphin]

what is the mechanism involved in humidity removing of an inter cooler ?
refreshing air rise humidity % no ?
Where does this water go ?

Someone else may know this. But it works just like a air conditioner

[Towboat Ed]

BUT WHERE ARE THEY COMING FROM...NOT FROM ME. Some of you guys obviously have me confused with someone else....probably a man named Ozzie Freedom ? He is the marketing GURU known as water4gas...currently being sued for fraud by the State of Texas.. I have made no rediculous,impossible claims......I now have all my testing equipment working, and will be posting results as soon as the Gale subsides. Same Plan, just another unavoidable delay...till then.... www.water4fuel4boats.com

[kerosene]

well Ed,

I do appreciate your responses on the fact that you are not trying to make an easy buck (hope that is true). I hope this comes trough as objective results from your tests - ie. you will post results even if results are against your assumptions. You ask for open mind - I hope you have one too.

And about the 90% gains... from your website:

"Reduce your Carbon Footprint !! HHO reduces Harmful Emmisions by up to 90% !!"

As we all know carbon footprint correlates straight to fuel consumed. of course sentence above could mean "reduce carbon monoxide and Nox emissions by up to 90% - and reduce your carbon footprint" - however in its current form it clearly suggest that your carbon emissions could drop by up to 90%...

[apex1]

Someone else may know this. But it works just like a air conditioner

It still goes through the engine naturally. But intercooling increases the density of air and that way the (relative) humidity is decreased.
Naturally

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Thanks for answer about intercooler
I opened one just after using it...and found some water inside :-)


Some knowledge about hydrogen that was the original subject

technical review
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Hydrogen_from_Water

Towards a Hydrogen Economy
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VSS-4GHSGMT-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0d86548d3532653782b7ee234db43759

Hydrogen myths
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VSS-4GHSGMT-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0d86548d3532653782b7ee234db43759

Electrolysis propulsion by NASA
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/1997/TM-113157.pdf


Here on earth we all have accepted, i hope, that H² added to an ICE gives great results (if not convinced yet of this transition solution before full electric solution, please test it by yourself before barking to scandal)
The only question is how to get H with low energy needs to make it from sun, wind or bacterias

You will find hundreds of patent about this, from polymer to plasma and the most bizarre tech, and of course resonant circuits (Stanley Meyer) to split the H and O
Can all these search lead to an absolute NOTHING ?
It is very hard to beleive so much energy is spent searching and finding, without a single positive result coming to our car, boat or home today. (i hope you forgive me to ...forget fuel cell reformer based)
How can it be wise to electrolyse water to run a satellite and not help an ice engine...:confused:

Now from my own test i found that DC electrolysing of distilled water with DC current produced by an alternator, in Sodium hydroxyde solution is not bringing any significant GPH reduction under normal use, only a smoother run at very low Rpm (under 1000) was noticeable. AND bring the draw back of destroying aluminium inlet pipes that will produce H² with hydroxyde sodium vapour. A bubbler is compulsory to take these vapour off
But I have realized that my first electroliser was not correctly made for 14V as 7 plates cell are needed

Next test will take in account theses corrections

In short even if it is ok for test purpose forget DC basic electrolyse, it will bring you average results or disappointment because over heating but because of absence of electronic efficiency will be ok
PWM is a key to efficient cool electrolyse and regulated amps (so heat)
Plasma and other sophisticated devices can be tested to if you can afford.

Bob BOYCE plans seems to be among the best and his discover was ...on a racing boat. Read the Pdf, this is a real quality documentation
http://pesn.com/2007/01/08/9500445_Bob_Boyce_Electrolyzer_Plans/
http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf


I read a Russian searcher got 3000 time efficiency improvement playing with plasma, and ultrasonic vortex...true or scam ?

[mydauphin]

No, it only works in your own mind. Again, using anything like a alternator to separate hydrogen is inefficient. And the power or benefit from hydrogen is minimal. It is far easier and efficient to simply boil water and use the steam. As we know that has been around for a while.

[kistinie]

In my own mind ?
Our own mind you mean ?
It seems we are a lot to say the same thing.

You should tell the NASA to forget about electrolyse and go for a steam satellite.
Tell them first, if they accept, i give you a hand and stop with hydrogen

Till this moment some are moving on for new and simple things
http://americanfuelvehicles.com/ProductsandServices.aspx

[mydauphin]

1 NASA has Nasa budgets
2 They do research on any idea that they get paid to do
3. What works in space as a thruster to push a spacecraft with no inertia has nothing to do with boats in the water. May be if you launched your boat into space.
4. The law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant. A consequence of this law is that energy cannot be created or destroyed. The only thing that can happen with energy in an isolated system is that it can change form, for instance kinetic energy can become thermal energy. Because energy is associated with mass in the Einstein's theory of relativity, the conservation of energy also implies the conservation of mass in isolated systems (that is, the mass of a system cannot change, so long as energy is not permitted to enter or leave the system).

So if water has potential energy, then via some other energy, electricity, microwave, ultrasound, the molecular bond, which is considered a strong bond breaks apart into Hydrogen and oxygen. Oxygen is not a fuel, it is a oxidizer, so the hydrogen that is left, very little for each molecule of water is left.
5. So you either need to carry a large amount of Hydrogen in a tank, or have something that can produce a lot electricity to generate the hydrogen, like a nuclear powerplant. But it is still inefficient. It is still cheaper just to make electricity via a diesel generator.
6. Whenever you convert energy there is a percentage loss whether by heat, friction, electrical resistance etc. So the more times you go back and forth you loss more. If you burn fuel, to generate electricity to make fuel, then burn fuel to produce power and then feed electric motor that needs electronic controller. Every step it loss energy. Just burn the original fuel and turn a shaft... Much more efficient...
7.The laws of physics apply in a 10000hp engine or in a little one
8. The more complicate something on a boat is the more of a chance it will break and leave you stranded in a possibly life threatening situation.

So it is safer, cheaper and ultimately more eco-friendly to use a sailboat with a diesel than all these other "Nasa" ideas...

[kistinie]

Bingo fuel !
If you fly a plane this tells you something like... hope

20 times more H² than conventional DC electrolyse...

This nice french experiment gives

1080 litres of gas to burn with 30 V AC, 80 Amps source so 2400 VA

With this you can run a 5 HP motor
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/bfr5hpgen.htm

And is based on a very brand new 1898 patent from Hilliary Eldridge US 603,058 "Electrical Retort"

But CNRS (again) is improving the thing in 2007 !
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2007063244

Funny to see how all these idiots keep on searching how to electrolyse water

http://www.newswire.co.kr/?job=news&no=366039


To finish with style:
This one producing H² with a cop over 11 (1150%)
French guys again ! (based on a Russian patent)

http://www.gifnet.org/MAHG/The%20Moller%27s%20Atomic%20Hydrogen%20Generator.htm

And the last CEA - CNRS plan for H² (CEA is the French Nuclear authority, CNRS is national state research)
http://www-anr-panh.cea.fr/home/liblocal/docs/Projets%20finances/Production%20hydrog%C3%A8ne/PANH%202008%20AIRELLES1.pdf
And US
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/fuel_cells/me_assemblies.html


Please I'm a true idiot :confused: , need help.
Can someone explain me again how it doesn't work to electrolyse water with a Cop >11 ?
Dear APEX please help me, say again only idiots ignore the 2nd LT and that there is no salvation out of oil...i'm loosing faith in EXXON and TOTAL... i'm loosing my oiled soul in H² vapour

GAME OVER

H²

H²
H² H² H²
H² H² H² H² H² H²
H² H² H² H² H² H² H² H² H² H² H² H²

This being said, i feel lighter

i really hope that now this dispute about hydrogen is over and that we will work in peace, much more open to the world and keep on improving our boats in harmony

http://www.gifnet.org/message.htm

[kerosene]

the guys with their 5hp engine - I would be more impressed if the cable went from the generator to the transformer. It is still plugged to the wall though by all accounts it should not need to be (if it was true)

I have an audi with 200hp engine. One day I was driving and I used less than 200 hp. I was pretty amazed that the car also used less fuel when I only used 50hp. See where I am getting at.
The 5hp engine is useless measure unless it is actually doing the work and why not do that by powering the fuel unit itself? If they could do that - it would be right there breaking news everywhere. That would be huge revolution both in the practical world and the world of physics. but damn - they still have the cables coming from the wall to the transformer.

And this was April 2003 - I guess 6 years hasn't been enough to finesse the problem of unplugging the transformer from the wall and plugging it to the generator.
Or maybe the guys just got bored with revolutionizing the world as we know it - they got something better to do.

[thudpucker]

I guess the questions could be answerd if one of the guys who claim to know, would tell us how much current, AC or DC would be needed to yeild a quantity of H Gas that would provide 30% of the needs of a 5 Hp B&S.

If a 5 Hp B&S can run an alternator at 2500 Rpm, (That will keep ahead of an Auto equipped with A/C and EFI) , would it have enough to keep a Battery charged that is providing the Current to make H Gas?

[kistinie]

Would be nice if you finish "with style"
find yourself a strong branch and a rope!


Or maybe the guys just got bored with revolutionizing the world as we know it - they got something better to do.

Reading APEX 's statements that are much representative of a certain form of tolerance and opening, it can be understood...

But this is not important
As always since the earliest times

Enraged dogs bark and spit, and the caravan pass


So now, those who beleive H² production with cop>1 is impossible should understand that even United Nations secretary doesn't share their opinion.
God himself was certainly too busy to do a declaration about it ;-))
If you are not blind you will see hundred of searchers and state involved in H² production from water with official certified results by layers.
What else needed to accept the idea of H² energy from water ?

[mydauphin]

I am all for French Engineering,
The Charles de Gaulle comes to mind...Great ship, it is up to like 20knots now. I love french pastries...
The UN in its totality is a bunch of crooked politicians that are just there for the free lunch, dinner, trips and BS.

How come the french navy doesn't use weird science in its ships.

Oh about 5hp turning alternator to produce hydrogen for electrolysis. This should be fairly easy to do numbers.

A 5 hp gas motor can be hookup to like a 10 amp alternator
The 10 amp alternator will produce what, a 10 gallons of unpressurized hydrogen in an hour. If you feed that back to 5hp gas engine, since hydrogen burns cooler than gas, and is less dense, you will burn it 2 minutes.

If your theory is that adding hydrogen gas to gasoline engine will make it more efficient. Actually it will disrupt it.

Simply the gas engine requires a percentage of air to gasoline fuel, by adding hydrogen then engine would be running too rich. If you lower gasoline to compensate the engine will still only make 5hp or less since hydrogen has less potential heat energy within than gasoline.

Sorry, those pesky laws of physics, thermodynamics and chemistry again.
Go back to school....

[kistinie]

Stop with school, i'm graduate in maths and physics, 5 years in university, my head remains full of formulas that refuse to go out to let more space for music, art and poetry. I won't go back to school unless ...i teach.

About French army all is not like the Charles de Gaulle ...Hopefully ;) and some gadgets friends have used look more than average . It is the same for your army, with wave and sound projection by example, on human or clouds
But this is another story


Lets take the following hypothesis that seems to agitate many minds : Sur unitary H² is impossible

- cop will always be under 1, Meyer, GIFNET... lied
- all proof of fuel saving are corrupted
- All sate researches are just money washing for corrupted politicians

In this case :

Who gets the benefit of this enormous H² swindle ?
How did this happened ?
do you have any clue ?

[mydauphin]

How did Al Gore go from a Popper to 100million dollars selling a theory that is unproven at best? Many have different agendas. It use to be that you could trust scientist and doctors to be honest. Today they all want money and will push the truth to sell their ideas and keep someone paying for their research. Many times they believe it, many times they do it for the money or to be published. Truth and honesty in research is a rare thing these days. If you understand research, there is a right way to do it and many wrong ways but like statistic and beauty it is in the eye of who does the test.

But if you are scientist then you know that you have to be able repeat and prove it without a benefit of the doubt. Just because someone says so is not proof.

The internet is not proof. A Nasa research project is not proof. Now if NASA does research properly and publishes its result so others can replicate then that is another story.

Take example of Cold Fusion research, several have said they have done it. But none of been able to publish how and have someone replicate it.

Area 51 is full of singularity powered UFOs and in the Bermuda triangle is an underwater submarine base. I saw then in .... Here it is on internet, it must be true.

Oh, I have 100ft fishing boat powered by a 25hp diesel that uses hydrogen to give it 99% efficiency and we inject water into exhaust and use steam produced to generate electricity to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen then we inject this into air intake. The engine runs at 30 to 1 compression and we use propane to lower temperature .... It must be true, it is on the internet...

See my point - don't believe everything you read. Believe less than half at best.

[kistinie]

100% ok on this
GW of Al Gore and M. Taetcher(the first inventor) is a good example of a possible large scale swindle.

Now, if among these 99 bandits there is 1 smart guy, we will have to be correct and have respect to the 100 as we do not know who is the good one.

And above all... you behave like the bandits... when you just say ...Pffff nonsense... without looking any deeper.
Do not forget the state of mind that were in the relative of Marie Curie, or Tesla when (s)he start to say (s)he discovered this or that.


Times are perfect for new kind of fraud with the help of internet.
Misrepresentation is often more fraudulent than innocent or negligent but even if it is difficult we need to remain open else we will miss our future
GIFNET is in France and i will investigate this as my boat project is more than serious and i will incorporate true good solutions only
I test all i need to put in and only trust my 2 eyes ...and my heart for the final decision
About Butane injection this is my own test and certify it is a good solution for a diesel
If H² is the same i will know it soon.
Cheers !

[apex1]

apex1 - that's bit much... :P don't you think.

Agree, thats much. Too much in this special case..................No.


Stop with school, i'm graduate in maths and physics, 5 years in university, my head remains full of formulas that refuse to go out to let more space for music, art and poetry. I won't go back to school unless ...i teach.
Do not let that happen for goodness sake!

About French army all is not like the Charles de Gaulle ...Hopefully ;) and some gadgets friends have used look more than average . It is the same for your army, with wave and sound projection by example, on human or clouds
But this is another story
Lets take the following hypothesis that seems to agitate many minds : Sur unitary H² is impossible

- cop will always be under 1, Meyer, GIFNET... lied
- all proof of fuel saving are corrupted
- All sate researches are just money washing for corrupted politicians

In this case :
Who gets the benefit of this enormous H² swindle ?
How did this happened ?
do you have any clue ?

If that was a ordinary guy, willing to contribute and to learn, yes ok that was strong, but Kistinie is a proven dreamer and does absolutely not accept the real worlds rules and issues. Neither the basic principles of nature.
He was never at sea, has never seen a seagoing ship, nor has he any idea what he is asking the forum.
But he has nice ideas (unmature though) to spread around when professional advice was the question!

Coming back on 316 L steel brazed on coper.
I did this for outside use but not on a boat and it behaves well

In a salted environment what happens ?
Any picture to see ?


Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Agree, thats much. Too much in this special case..................No.

Special case ?

שָׁלוֹם

[kistinie]

http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf

As the subject got trolled i post again this very rich and quality link
You will get here most of what you wanted to know about hydrogen conversion.

Reading it i have not found any incoherences and this design is used for truck products.
This does not mean all is right, but all is free from patent, so as my grand mother said
Do not look at the teeth of a given horse

The next step would be to have the testimony on a user of this electroliser that could be verified.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Do not look at the teeth of a given horse
I believe the quote should be: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth". :D

[kistinie]

Oups !
She never spoke well english ;-)
Thanks cousin !

[FAST FRED]

"I am all for French Engineering,
The Charles de Gaulle comes to mind...Great ship, it is up to like 20knots now."

Did they find the propeller that fell off, or has enough time gone by they had someone make them a new one?

Another 15K and they might be able to fly a British Harrier off it.

FF

[kistinie]

"I am all for French Engineering,
The Charles de Gaulle comes to mind...Great ship, it is up to like 20knots now."
Did they find the propeller that fell off, or has enough time gone by they had someone make them a new one?
FF

:D i guess they ordered a new one with my taxes :rolleyes:

I have to do everything, the pro
And against ....
http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/september2006.html

in fact it is a real mess, everyone says the other is a liar...
Mythbuster test are not more serious
And french university of zetetique i proposed to test over unity products, more generally energy devices claiming O.U didn't answer yet
Energy is a very hot subject !


So the only certain thing is that hydrogen is fine as a second fuel in an ICE
The only problem is that to be very effective it seems you need close to 10 to 20%...

http://www.althytude.info/English/althytude_e.htm

This is a french test in public bus running on dual fuel with good results
The main technical advantage is that speed of combustion is increased as well as going to real full combustion. Efficiency gain on LPG is...5% (i guess it is much more for diesel), so difficult to detect and of course a part of this gain is absorbed by the alternator.
This is a photograph of the two combustions
http://www.althytude.info/gnv_h2_tec.htm


A French forum that tested several electrolyser alternator driven seriously for a year, did not Get any Mpg decrease going up to 30 amp on 6 cells (so 75% efficiency electrolyse)
http://www.econologie.com/forums/electrolyse-amelioree-vt1228-2410.html
Certainly the under 1% they produced was not enough to get clear changes.
This could be explained also by the fact that timing will very probably need to be changed for less to be right. Most french cars are diesel and changing mechanical timing cartography on a diesel is far from a piece of cake.
But on a petrol engine with a basic PIC lighting and a dymo software like powerdyn (http://www.powerdyn.fr/) a friend did, this could be done by any good engine builder.

The last point is that diesel particle are lowered when H² is added.
This above the ecological aspect would help to regain reliability for the new diesel, full of captors that get dirty and fail when the diesel is not loaded correctly. And diesel are often not loaded correctly because high price of fuel tend to make full throttle use very rare, CPP absent and users not skilled..and this could be measured...but as far as I'm concerned, the diesel i run are full mechanical injection and strange gaze i breath is mainly methane from caws around, i do not spend that much time inspiring the air full of s...t of L.A or Paris, so as the principle of HHO collected mainly opposition and hate, rather than curiosity and technical study, that will be enough for me about this ;-), at least publicly here.

Cheers !

[mydauphin]

Producing your own hydrogen in any quantity without a fuel cell by only electrolysis is a waste of energy.
The handling and fueling of hydrogen is dangerous, as it is very explosive.
The adding of trace amounts of hydrogen to a ICE is of dubious advantage.
Anyone who thinks this will solve the worlds fuel problems is dreaming....

[kistinie]

road are dangerous
sea is dangerous
Life is dangerous

All fuels are dangerous as they all contain a lot of potential energy
H² leak and explodes
Petrol give cancer and poison sea life...just a question of speed
i love speed

About the no-future of H² except from fuel cell
is this an opinion or the result of test and measures ?


And what do you think of Iceland and Shell going to this business ?
Or Japan for biological production of H²

[Dieseltwitch]

Ok just so people know that producing Hydrogen from any thing but a properly constructed fuel cell is extremely dangerous! you putting the fuel and the oxidizer in the same line. real fuel cells can either use energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen or be reversed to produce energy from hydrogen. they are very expensive! 5000$ for ones that can produce large amounts of useable fuel or energy. simply putting two coils in a tube filled with water and drawing off the hydrogen is one of the dumbest things any once can do! every wonder why no one is mass producing this! or why most of these systems are made from PVC. The idea of inducing hydrogen and oxygen into the ICE (internal combustion engine) is sound. but the means taken to produce that hydrogen need to be done very carefully. If you want real fuel cells try starting at www.fuelcellstore.com hope this point people in the right direction

PS. If hydrogen leaks out it will move sky word very fast (45 ft/sec+) so if you use it make sure you have ample overhead vents. hydrogen can be a very powerful and safe fuel if use properly

[mydauphin]

Well said diesel... Hydrogen leaks like nothing at all, literally. Being smallest, lightest element it is by far the hardest to contain. Helium which is twice as big is still a leaker. Get a helium latex balloon and stick it underwater it will leak thru the skin of balloon.

WOW like that link I didn't know fuel cells like that could be bought off shelf.... Tell me what do you put in these fuel cell to power then.

[kerosene]

I checked the link in the 1st post
http://www.water4fuel4boats.com/8.html

Seems like the poster is not full of it in the sense that the results are not "revolutionary"


except the info he is posting from other visionaries is a little questionable.


"WHOA..HOLD-IT..STOP THE PRESS !!!!!!!

I JUST GOT A CALL FROM A LEADER IN THE FIELD WHO HAS 'DYNO-TESTED' A SERIES 60 GM DIESEL WITH A NEW DESIGN HHO CELL IN A SEMI-TRUCK ....RESULTS.......

50% increase in HORSEPOWER

80% decrease in EMMISIONS

90% increase in FUEL MILEAGE"

[Dieseltwitch]

Great, we all know that Hydrogen is a powerful fuel source! in fact its the most powerful in the known UNIVERSE!

But the way these half ass companies produce it is very dangerous! they generate 2 out of the 3 needed items for an explosion and fire in ONE location! When you break down water into hydrogen and oxygen by any other means then a membrane fuel cell or hydrogen production machine you place the oxidizer and fuel source in one tank! all you need is a single spark and BOOM! say good by to you boat/car/truck!

I think using hydrogen to increase power and fuel milage and decrease emissions is a great idea! But the way they generate that fuel is the important part!!!!

PS. Your CAPS LOCK IS STUCK!!! LMAO

[kerosene]

caps are from quoted text - which was all caps - of course due to the AMAMZINg and REVOLUTIONARY nature of the information :P

[apex1]

Absolutely great!! Thank you all!! I am so glad to gain all that knowledge.....

How about a "serious" conclusion on this topic?

[Dieseltwitch]

How about a "serious" conclusion on this topic?

How about "Do it at your own risk!"

[kistinie]

H² is the first original matter of the universe
the beginning of creation
To your own risk...
:-))

[Towboat Ed]

How about the US Department of Transportation`s Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration has issued guidelines for use of Hydrogen in Commercial Vehicles : and notes that in a limited study HHO Kits increased mileage & reduced emmissions.


www.fmcsa.dot.gov/facts-research/art-technology-Hydrogen-Fuel-Systems.htm[/url]
these links dont work well for some reason, but it will take you to the FMCSA page , where you can just type 'HYDROGEN" IN THE SEARCH WINDOW...AND IT WILL COME-UP
www.fmcsa.dot.gov/.../research-technology/report/System-Safety-Plan-CMVs-Hydrogen-Final-nov07.pdf - 2008-01-10 -

[Towboat Ed]

If you look at the pics on my website, you will see that the HHO Unit is mounted under the cook stove. Future plans are to use the hho for cooking,instead of bottled Propane. Over 1000 miles later, we are still standing & afloat. We have,because of the Graphics on our boat, containing the H-word, been boarded by the US Coast Guard,Border Patrol,Florida Marine Patrol & 2 City Fire Boats & got a Clean Bill-of-Health from all,because there is nothing unsafe about our system.

Production ?? Precombustion Technologies of Sanford Florida has 3 Factories producing "The Cell" for the Trucking Industry.

As for the "Whoa,Hold It,Stop the Press..............I will post a copy of that dyno-report, after I attend the hho games.com, this weekend, in St.Petersburg,Fl.

[FAST FRED]

"Future plans are to use the hho for cooking,instead of bottled Propane."

Am wondering how many amp hours are required to replace a gallon of Propane ?

FF

[kerosene]

no kidding - but the true believers are convinced about the way over 100% efficient electrolysis.

People have very little grasp on how much energy is stored in fossil fuels - then they think that pulling couple of amps into a HHO bubbler will make a dent in their fuel bill.