Titebond III testing

[longfellow]

I have about finished some pretty extensive testing of this adhesive, as it compares to Resourcinol, and PL brand polyurethane adhesive (in calking tubes). From a variety of immersion tests and breaking strength tests, and using white oak and yellow pine as test species, I am able to see a slight advantage in the purple stuff, but only in the immersion category, and even here the advantage is slight (To help qualify what this means, once sample assemblies were soaked for two months and then broken apart the resourcinol broke with more wood fibers pulled out from the adjacent piece. The Titebond III also pulled original wood, just not quite as much of it.) I also have results from both lightly clamped (10 lbs force) assemblies and heavily clamped (traditionally the advice of resourcinol advocates) assemblies and at a variety of grain orientations relative to the mating piece. It seems best to use a fair amount of force with both materials, but Titebond may be a bit more flexible.
The entire test plan is quite extensive and I've no plan to clean up the data for publication. You shouldn't trust implicitly what anyone else says anyway if you have pride in your work. This is just to let the community know that you might want to revisit (if you aren't already using Titebond III) the adhesive yourself for possible applications. I am impressed. I am not saying anything about the PL stuff. It has its uses and I even make good use of it myself quite a bit: I'm just not going to put it in any boat that I build.
cheers.
OK. Time to get back to the lofting, though my knees could use the rest of the day off.
Ed

[Boston]

hey Ed
way to go
I am looking for a glue that could replace both epoxy and Res in a build I am organizing now
couple of questions
T Bond I always let sink in for a moment or two before assembling the parts
and once placed I always make sure that the clamps are just hand tight and not to crank them as hard as I can so as to leave glue in the joint
would you agree that that is the correct procedure
or did you follow a different procedure in your testing process

thanks for posting your results
points to you mate
this is a thread Ive been waiting for

cheers
B

[cameron.d.mm]

I'm interested to hear all about your tests, as I'm just finishing a project using Titebond III. So far it sounds like your results are favorable (which is good news for me, I guess).

The small boat I'm building is assembled entirely with TB3. Clicky. (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/wooden-boat-building-restoration/my-little-wooden-boat-project-complete-novice-26466.html) All joints in the frame and the butt joints between the planks are glued with the stuff. Now, everything is also screwed, so you could remove the glue and it'd hold together. I've also used the TB3, mixed with wood flour, as a filler, which seems to have worked well (it already has such a high solids content).

I can't comment on the moisture resistance (the boat'll be dry sailed and pretty well sealed) but your comments reassure me. What I have found are a few minor things. When sanding, TB3 gets quite soft from the heat, which can be a pain. It isn't much different than normal wood glue in this respect. I've also seen it do some funny things in cold temperatures that are technically within the rated range.

Also, I've read that TB3 is a poor choice for applications under constant load (oops) and that it will fail suddenly, rather than gradually. Anyone have any experience with this?

Are you going to share any more details about your moisture tests? I know we'd all love to see them.

[PAR]

Tite Bond III is rated a type I water proof adhesive. It just passes this requirement in several of my own tests. I've used Tite Bond III for several years with good success, but would never use it in highly loaded or under the LWL applications.

It does seem to fail catastrophically under high loads and isn't recommended as a structural adhesive by it's manufacture, likely for this and other reasons.

Lately, I've been testing it as a coating and results are yet to get in. It's cost and easy of use are real benefits. I've tried using fillers of different types and percentages, but haven't succeeded in making it workable without a lot of "grab" lose. It does appear to be slightly gap filling, though quite small gaps only and shrinkage is an issue.

You have to be careful about this stuff though as it's difficult to repair. Epoxy doesn't like to stick to it.

[cameron.d.mm]

Hey Par, could you describe a bit more of what you mean when you say 'coating'?

I know that I chose TB3 for it's cost and non-noxious-chemical-ness, as I had to work indoors in a living space that shares ventilation with my living quarters. The clean up was nice too. I think for some people, myself included, these are strong benefits.

You are right that shrinkage can be a problem when filling, but I mostly ran into on larger gaps. I'm sure that our ideas of what is a small/large gap differ (my boat is only 9 feet long, after all). What do you mean by "grab lose"?

Also, thanks for the tip about epoxy. I hadn't expected that, and will need to consider it.

Finally, sorry for hi-jacking your thread longfellow.

[alan white]

Regarding polyurethane adhesives, sold as construction adhesive for subfloors, etc., I am using this glue for certain applications on a kayak frame I'm building. Specifically, i'm using it to bed slash-cut 2 1/2" height gunwales to solid wood stems. I am using screws for primary attachment. The glue is a means to ensure the joint is unable to hold moisture, and to also guarantee the screws cannot "work".
I am also using the construction adhesive to bed the deck cross members to the sides (gunwales). This kind of application was also to augment the primary screw attachment.
I had the opportunity to test the bond when replacing two beams due to a design change. After removing the screws, I sawed through one side and tried to snap off the beam from the other side with a pressure just short of pulling the wood off the gunwale. After failing, I decided to saw the second side and belt sand the stump that remained. Bottom line, end grain joints aren't that good with most adhesives besides epoxy, but you might try construction adhesive (mine was a super-strength type costing 2 1/2 times what the cheap stuff cost--$5.75).
I'm tempted to try Titebond 111 now, as I've been using gorilla glue for laminating strips to make an arched deck beam, and to scarf strips to make a coaming. None of this will be under water nor allowed to remain outdoors between uses. Epoxy isn't needed nor wanted if a no-mix solutiuon can be found. It's not the cost but the pre-mixing, which guarantees waste, while single part glues can be added to if they don't finish the job.
Thanks for sharing the research.

[Boston]

ya great thread topic
this ones got all my attention

in the type of joints that I tend to make the structural loading is whats called a dead load
( at least in the joint the beam itself in this picture is live loaded )
when I use Titebond ( and I been using it for ages ) I have had no problems when its applied to this type of joint

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0899.jpg

here you can see how the joints fit together
its a half blind tenon in a mortise or a stopped dado ( take your pick someone is sure to call either wrong )
least thats they way I learned it
that will be pinned with a oak dowel

i dont use metal fasteners so there are no metal fasteners to work in any of the stuff I build
basically when joint is made of wood it will flex evenly
when a joint is held with metal
since the metal is harder than the wood it will chew away at the surrounding wood no mater how well you made the joint and eventually work itself loose
metal and wood do not flex uniformly

Ive hesitated to mention this on the forum cause Im sure a number of people will jump down my throat for it what with the method being so old school
but it worked for generations of boat builders in ships that lasted a hundred plus years and more
so if that plywood boat screwed and glued lasts a hundred years feel free to spray paint "I told you so" on my head stone

Im going to get my head chopped off for this but a properly cut pin with a nicely tapered head will outlast any metal fastener if made out of the same wood as what its fastening to and properly cared for
metal no mater what you do will eventually eat away at the edges of the wood in contact with it and become loose over time
galvanic action isnt exactly conducive to longevity either

back to glue
I never used much glue but when I started making furniture I discovered Titebond and been using it for years

what ive found
( and I have not tried the stuff in any underwater applications )
is that its pretty tough if you clamp the joint properly ( not to hard not to soft )
Ive only ever had one joint fail and I dont think I clamped it all that well
so could have been my fault

funny part was that I was telling someone how tough the stand was when I grabbed and shook it with everything I had
normally nothing happens but in that one instance there was this big bang and I knew I had lost a joint
the stand still held and nothing else happened other than me standing there looking stupid
fortunately the tank was mine and not one I had made for anyone

I am eagerly awaiting Par's answer though cause I never mix glues and when I come across a hodge podge of different glue in one joint I always clean the crap out of it and start over if I can
or maybe even make a few new pieces and just start fresh

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0924.jpg

the joints in this picture are whats called bridle cut and again there is no metal fastener needed in this kind of joint
its dead loaded in the joint at least although obviously the beam is live loaded so the stress in on the joint and not on the pin

I cant seem to find any pictures of the pinning process or placing the risers
risers being that vertical piece on the right hand side middle of the picture
thats held in place by twin feather tenons

the work is a fish tank stand and will be holding about 2500 lbs
Ive never had one fail
and Ive never once used any metal fasteners of any kind
they depend entirely on old fashioned joinery
and a little glue

[PAR]

Tite Bond III is pretty good in compression, not very good (compared to many others) in tension or sheer. It also doesn't like cyclic loading much, but if movement is minimal, it'll hold. For these reasons (and others) I can't trust it in structural applications or places where I know it'll be in tension, sheer or have to tolerate movement.

Cameron, when I added fillers to bulk up the glue, it lost much of it's "tack", which is one of the nice features of this adhesive (quick tack). I found I was wetting it out with neat TB3, just to get it back, which literally watered down the filler. I've never expected it cover very large gaps, a 1/16" would be as much as I could ask, with considerable shrinkage to be anticipated.

Like all of the modified aliphatic resins, it has it's limitations, but it also has it's uses and I'm finding more all the time.

Boston, you experienced the catastrophic failure I mentioned. Your joint which was in sheer, just confirms my testing. It's kind of weird, they just give up, usually with a loud bang. I've seen very old resorcinol joints do this under load, but the glue had turned to powder and it was obvious from the looks of the glue line, that it would eventually happen. The TB3 failures haven't given me these warnings.

[Boston]

well I am avidly reading along cause I want some kind of option to my old school ways and the modern glues like epoxy or Res which I know are just horrible on both the environment and on the person living aboard

I am disappointed that Titebond wont work for my build
joints in a boat are under stress in every direction at some point in there life time

ps
I think that the sound associated with the failure of Titebond is due to the pressure originally placed on the joint by the clamping process being suddenly released
or maybe the swelling of the wood in different moisture conditions placing enough additional pressure on the joint that once an additional force in an unfavorable direction is also applied you end up with a sudden failure

I been wondering if the same characteristics would hold true for this type of glue depending on its moisture content
IE
if it were in an immersion situation would this type of failure be more or less likely to occur

[duluthboats]

Also worth reading on this subject.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/wooden-boat-building-restoration/your-glue-joints-repairable-8085.html
Gary :D

[longfellow]

Good information folks.
Boston,
Great looking workmanship ! I sympathize with your fear of attack here. Everyone has an opinion right? But you've got the right idea in challenging some of the ideas that you hear and read. This is why I humbly invite everyone to do their own investigation. Regarding clamp pressure, you're right on. Use moderate pressure. Your woodworking instincts are all you need and it is too difficult to try to write about how to do it. Yes, I would allow a minute of soak time but only because we are always gluing variously different faces (radial, tangential, or somewhere in between) and they soak up glue differently. I just give every joint a minute or so. Finally, your technique of trying to end up with a truely homogeneous assembly with no single component (metal screw) having drastically different mechanical or thermal properties, is fantastic. We just can't dowel and biscut everything in boatbuilding. We'd never get done ;)
PAR,
Good point about the actual mechanical strength. I only did destructive testing that would approximte sheer loads (with and also across the grain). I do what I can to make sure that there is no joint that is truely in pure tension. Neither would I think that true fatigue loading (the general category that cyclic loading falls in, as well as reversed cyclic which is even worse (This is vibration.) exists anywhere in a boat except maybe on engine beds and surrounding structures, so I don't really worry about results. I am only building daysailers without engines so I don't think I need to worry about performance under fatigure loads. But now that you've mentioned it, if I ever were to consider hanging an outboard on a transom, maybe I should be more concerned. Do you have strength data on the two materials? I'd be curious I guess about tensile, pure sheer, and fatigue strength values if you have them as well as the "many other" types of adhesives that you mentioned were better. I still have some time to repeat the testing with whatever you suggest, before I am going to actually need to 'cut bait.' The lofting is almost done. Thanks,
Ed

[Boston]

Thanks Ed for the response
you would be surprised how fast pinning goes once you get it down and the quality of the joint is tops
although I did have one fail
once that I know of
the time consuming part is in making proper pins not the actual application of the pins as you would in many cases be pre-drilling screws anyway
fluting em is what sucks and my grand dad would have us turning out pins for days on end sometimes

um
I dont use biscuits either but instead true feather tenons
the biscuits are flimsy and just not big enough
besides I kinda hate plywood
so I make a nice feather out of stock and use the old scantling rules for size

a joint made this way can potentially last a hundred plus years and historically nothing that I am aware of can beat that glue or no glue

when I get my materials all together and start my build Ill post some pictures of the pinning process

my old grand dad Roby taught us kids how to build according to what his dad had taught him and Im kinda partial to it
not sure if I just like the nostalgia or if its the simplicity or what
just kinda feels right to do it that way

I actually started writing a short on the old school joinery techniques
maybe someday Ill post it if I ever get it done

nice quote from H by the way
has a ring to it

cheers
B

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg
I want it to be more than the sum of its pieces
and I want each piece to be a pleasure in itself

B

sounds like thus far Im still stuck with epoxy
should I decide to use glue at all

[Jimbo1490]

It's going to be really hard to replace epoxy with any one part adhesive. The properties are just ever so tailorable to whatever adhesive bonding/laminating job you happen to have.

The environmental and health concerns are wholly addressable by simply selecting the appropriate curing agent as it's the curing agent that has all the serious health issues (there's no epichlorohydrin left in epoxy resin after epoxidzation; most resins are not even classed as hazardous.)

There are literally hundreds of curing agents available. Most users of epoxy content themselves to using a 'system' (resin + curing agent) off the shelf rather than formulating one for themselves. This approach works OK as long as what you want happens to be right in the middle of what's easy/economical/profitable for the re-sellers to provide.

Most formulators will not offer a 'very low toxicity/sensitizing' resin system since it will cost more than one that uses curing agents that are poisonous/sensitizing, and the more expensive product line (which provides no other benefit) will just sit on the shelf unsold next to the typical product.

Virtually all the epoxy resin systems, regardless of curing agent used, can be totally inert, and not outgas any volatiles and can even approved for food contact ONCE FULLY CURED. The volatile modifiers can change this picture by adding a component that may continue to outgas later. Resorcinol modified epoxies also will outgas.

So why use these modifiers to begin with? AGain, the answer is mostly cost. The use of the modifiers can again be eliminated by selecting a better resin like BPF instead of BPA, as the BPF tend to b lower viscosity. But it is once again cheaper to make a system with BPA + volatile modifiers to thin it out and a cheap and nasty amine curing agent like TETA, than to use the thinner BPF resing and a polyamide or some such and price is all anybody ever buys on.

Look how many threads there have been recently where someone asks "What's the CHEAPEST epoxy around?" It's never "What's the lowest toxicity/sensitizing resin system around?"

I got into formulating epoxy about 10 years ago when I needed a resin system that nobody offered 'off the shelf' yet, as I was building carbon masts. That's all changed and now there are resin systems that if available 10 years ago, I could have put to use instead of learning about formulating, something that I have never needed since.

Jimbo

[alan white]

Thanks Ed for the response
you would be surprised how fast pinning goes once you get it down and the quality of the joint is tops
although I did have one fail
once that I know of
the time consuming part is in making proper pins not the actual application of the pins as you would in many cases be pre-drilling screws anyway
fluting em is what sucks and my grand dad would have us turning out pins for days on end sometimes

um
I dont use biscuits either but instead true feather tenons
the biscuits are flimsy and just not big enough
besides I kinda hate plywood
so I make a nice feather out of stock and use the old scantling rules for size

a joint made this way can potentially last a hundred plus years and historically nothing that I am aware of can beat that glue or no glue

when I get my materials all together and start my build Ill post some pictures of the pinning process

my old grand dad Roby taught us kids how to build according to what his dad had taught him and Im kinda partial to it
not sure if I just like the nostalgia or if its the simplicity or what
just kinda feels right to do it that way

I actually started writing a short on the old school joinery techniques
maybe someday Ill post it if I ever get it done

nice quote from H by the way
has a ring to it

cheers
B

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg
I want it to be more than the sum of its pieces
and I want each piece to be a pleasure in itself

B

sounds like thus far Im still stuck with epoxy
should I decide to use glue at all

I stopped using biscuits a long time ago due to their almost total reliance on adhesives. They are not square like a true tenon, and that parallel-sided tenon really helps the joint stay together.
I use plywood or same-wood splines now (both sides mortised) if doing cabinets for kitchens, etc..
Depending on what the job was (most of what I've done has been cabinets), I would avoid both biscuits and whatever they're called--- the screws angled from behines stiles and rails. Seems there're a lot of new systems.
Like you, I'd go with old world methods if the piece was worth the effort. Through tenons with wedges, wood pins slightly offset to draw the parts together, or whatever method made a lasting joint.

[Boston]

exactly
I dont mind glue in a joint
but the joint has to be able to hold with or without the glue
a pinned feather tenon will always hold
as will tree nails or a true suicide lock ( stopped tenon with a wedge, very tricky to do properly )
a through tenon wedged is called a fox lock ( much easier to do )
or at least thats what Roby called it and he was an old school trained shipwright his father having come from Bristol
I think we are on the same page concerning joinery


hey
the thread is about glue
so enough of this nostalgia
and no more about our joinery skills
I just wanted to point out that in certain joints certain glues seemed to work fine
( although it was news to me that Titebond sucked as a ship building glue, and Im disapointed but glad to be aware all at the same time )
but for bellow water applications and in many boat building applications simple joinery has been augmented by some pretty dam good glues
which I know nothing about
so please
lets not distract from what is a great thread about glue and its applications by people who obviously have us both beat on the glue issue
so whats the verdict
Jimbo seems to have some good points about epoxy
and Edd seems to have done his homework on the empirical end
so what do we have to work with in the end
sounds like epoxy or Res
with PL being a close runner up ( maybe )
sooooo

can I or cant I use PL for below water applications

its cheep
easy
and if I dont use it all I can always cap it for use in the future

[PAR]

When you start comparing physical attributes of epoxy to the other adhesives available, it becomes very clear why epoxy is the dog to hunt with. The question then becomes do I need epoxy for this application. Most modern building practices are using epoxy way more then they truly need. Folks are embalming their boats, which is good, but it's also costly, time consuming and labor intensive, all of which drives up the effort and cost of a project.

Jimbo sounds like he was in the boat (10 years ago) that I am now. I'm fooling with goo to get my needs and working with formulators, even considering formulating myself for resale. The more testing I do, the more I find alternatives to epoxy use and the more I realize how good certain formulations are.

Those that want testing results should contact me through email or give me a call. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with product defense teams.

[alan white]

Agreed to keep this thread adhesi... I mean cohesive. Just a word though regarding the wedged stopped (not through) tenon. We used to call those fox joints. You had to be precise or the joint wouldn't come together--- and possibly not apart again either.
I bought my first Titebond 111 tonight, and tried it out laminating a lip for the SOF kayak coaming. A half an hour is fast setting, at least to remove spring clamps (about 30 of them). I like that. Water cleanup--- I like that too. This is an application where I think the product is just right. The piece has no great loading, nor is it hidden, in case I want to catch a problem just starting. I've been using polyurethyane glue (Gorilla type) but I am going to shift to T3 for a while and see how it works out.
I'd hesitate to use it for a mid-gunwale scarf (I used epoxy there), but low stressed laminations shoukl be good candidates.

[Boston]

Ive been using T2 for a long time and T3 since its been out I have some now setting up on a drafting table Im building, but in regards to ship building I am not so sure about it any more.

yup its got lots of good qualities but this biz about other glues not sticking with it is kinda worrying. My builds tend to not fall apart and so Ive really never had to fix one but I have had to do my share of cleaning and new part making when it comes to stuff people bring me to fix. Most of the time I dont really know what kind of glue was used to best thing is to just cut it out or remake the part.

the bits about catastrophic failure aren't to comforting either

At this point I'll be going with epoxy used sparingly in key areas like scarfs and stringer connections, keel connections bla bla bla although Ive never done anything other than keyed hook scarfs with bolts or pins and never had a problem. That said, there is always room for improvement.

but lathering cheep wood in hugely expensive epoxy rather than just buy good water resistant wood in the first place kinda just shows a lack of craftsmanship IMHO.

although I got a serious urge to do a little diagonal planking on my build to gain that stiffness it so obviously imparts. My only hesitation is that the process involves the use of so much epoxy. Thus my avid interest in the thread

Alan I think they call that deja vu didnt we have this conversation about fox locked vs suicide locked before. Ill give you that many books only use the term fox locked in reference to both types of joints at least the ones that Ive seen but Ill stick with what old Roby taught me on this one. A suicide lock is, in my book, a stopped mortise with a wedged tenon. Idea being that if you screw it up ( easy to do ) you have wrecked the joint and will be starting over. The fox lock refers to a through tenon generally left proud and tapered with a wedge. A joint that is significantly easier and one that I have used many times.

It is unfortunate that someone like Roby didnt write down all his knowledge of old time shipbuilding and I regret that I didnt pay closer attention to all that he had to teach us kids. I notice no ones ever heard of a bridle cut either, nor do most people seem to know what a feather tenon is, or a hammer beam or even what cruck work is.

somehow Alan I think we could go round and round on woodworking terminology and both have a great time doing so

but back to glue and this time lets stay there
can I or cant I use pl in below water line applications ?
guess Ill have to boil some up for myself and float it in a lake for a season or two
it sure would be easy to use and Ive used the stuff on countless home builds so I know how strong that stuff is

well this I guess will be my motivation for today since Ive got nothing else to do and the stock market doesnt look conducive to a well planned trade today.
Im going to cut some test pieces of red ceder and glue em with pl give em a few days to dry and throw several outside in the sun to bake Ill boil a few others and just soak a few as well
that and drink beer

dam the things I do for excitement

an hour or so later and Ive got a number of test pieces drying
the glue is LNP-901 construction adhesive
I have multiple test subjects of
red ceder to red ceder
red ceder to white oak
and white oak to white oak
all will be tested to destruction with the results checked for consistency through multiple test subjects
I placed each piece cross grain to one another face to face
Ill boil all pieces for say two hours and then soak em for a few weeks then Ill dry em out and test them to destruction
I will be hanging each piece once dried with a known weight suspended from it for 24 hours at which point more weight will be added until each piece fails

I got pictures of what Ive done so far but they are pretty boring actually


PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
LIQUID NAILS
®
Heavy Duty Construction Adhesive, LN-901/LNP-901,
bridges gaps, provides 10 minutes working time and produces a
durable, flexible, and impact-resistant bond on the heaviest materials.
With antioxidants added for superior all-weather performance.

(when applied below 90ºF)

NO. 99444/LN-901/LNP-901 0905
Base: Synthetic rubber & resin
Type: Solvent
Color: Tan
Appearance: Smooth
Application Temperature:
40° to 100° F (5° to 38° C)
Service Temperature:
-20° to 140° F (-29° to 60° C)
Adhesion: Excellent
Consistency: Short buttery
Bridging Ability: Excellent
Extrudability: Easy
Shear Strength:
24 hours – 225 psi
48 hours – 300 psi
7 days – >425 psi
Durability: Excellent; 20 year life
Flexibility: Excellent
Water Resistance: Excellent
Exterior Weathering: Very good;
adhesive not recommended
for direct exposure to sunlight
Odor: Mild solvent
Working Time: 10 minutes
Weight Per Gallon: 9.4 pounds (1.12 kg/l)
Viscosity: 230,000 CPS
Volatiles: 35%
Solids: 65%
Flammability: Extremely flammable;
nonflammable when dry
Flash Point: 1°F (-17°C)
Coverage:
30 lineal ft. using 1/4" bead for 10 fl.oz.;
85 lineal ft. using 1/4" bead for 28 fl.oz.
Shelf Life: 12 months from date of purchase
Specifications: Exceeds ASTM C-557
MAX VOC: 401 GPL
LN-901/LNP-901

at which point my question is
if its got a shelf life of 12 months why isnt there a expiration date or a manufactured date on the tube or the box it came in
and yes I did notice the stuff seemed to have separated some with there being brief areas where the glue seemed more viscus than usual
thus the need for multiple test subjects

oh
and looks like Ill let the stuff dry for 7 days before I start boiling it
although I did just notice the twenty year life span
not nearly enough
course whats the life span of epoxy ?

well that was interesting
west system is strangely quiet on the life span of there product

[ancient kayaker]

Have used TB3 a lot and have great confidence in it, but I still prefer epoxy below waterline. TB3 likes plenty of pressure, epoxy likes just a little pressure, in my experience. Unlike epoxy TB3 does not fill gaps, at least with any kind of security. I tested TB3 and found it stronger than the wood when dry, but it doesn't penetrate and key-in as much as epoxy so when the wood is saturated and weakens keying strength is lost and the remaiing molecular bond strength may not be sufficient to hold. Full strength seems to return when the wood dries out. I have also used PL with success; it will expand to fill the joint but its strength is reduced sharply. TB3 is pretty useless on end grain, epoxy will hold but will break before the wood; haven't tried PL on end grain.

I have developed building methods and modified designs as necessary to allow me to make as many of the joints as possible while the wood is flat, to assure a good fitting joint and allow distributed pressure to be applied. Usually only the joints on the bottom plank or the bilge planks (whichever goes on last) are exposed to water continuously, I shift to epoxy there but still endeavour to get a perfectly fitted joint.

I have used these glues on softwood and marine ply exclusively so far, building canoes with no fasteners at all. That is about to change as I start on my first sailboat build. I don't (yet) trust TB3 on hardwood, and I have found flat surface joints made with any glue can fail due to shock and peeling forces, therefore I will use fasteners as reinforcement when fastening ply. For reinforcing joints between solid wood I use screws to apply pressure then exchange them for dowels, which I find adds shock resistance to a joint: the same thing is undoubtedly achieved by mortising.

I encourage the use of TB3, it is nice to use, easy to clean up and relatively cheap, but it is not a 100% substitute for epoxy.

I have never had a TB3 glued joint failure, it's always been the wood that failed first, so I haven't encountered a problem gluing to it, but I can't imagine wanting to glue to old glue without cleaning the joint off thoroughly.

[Boston]

one thing T2/3 has over everything else is its rated for food contact
course so WAS epoxy until folks started looking into the Bysphenol leaching question
ask Canada

just spoke to the West people and they recommend G-flex part # 655 as being best suited for my application
so now to await its arrival and test it as well
they do not know the lifespan of the product but instead suggest its been used for aprox 30 years without any trouble
anyone wonder why I do not trust the oil and gas/ chemical companies
Ill be using it to augment joints that would be able to stick with or without glue

Hey Mr Kayaker did you ever use that pl bellow the line and if so how well did it hold up and for how long

best
B

has anyone ever diagonal planked a hull without slathering it all with glue

[ancient kayaker]

Boston: Yes I used PL in a hull but only once, on an ama for a sailing canoe. It worked but did not get a real good testing, although the canoe+ama was moored in the water for a few days. No ill effects, that might have been a good varnish job but it only had 3 coats.

When I took it home and ritually demolished it I found it hard to believe how tough it was. It was about 7ft x 7" square and made from cheap door skin (1/8" luan ply) with 3/8" sq chine logs and a couple of ply bulkheads consisting of 90% holes. First I put concrete blocks under each end and stood on it: didn't creak so I repeatedly jumped on it: ditto, it felt stiffer than most house floors. So my buddy and I both stood on it, about 425 lb total: no effect. So I took a two-handed axe to it, that bounced off the chine though it did take a nick out of the corner; nearly took a nick out of me as I wasn't expecting that.

In the end I had to saw the damned thing up to get it to fit in the garbage. It was very clear that the wood failed before the glue but luan is not much of a test. If PL was a bit cheaper I might do more with it. There's a problem I have using it, it wants to expand so thin ply has to be clamped every 3 inches or so.

[Boston]

well the stuff says it holds 425 lbs per sq inch
which means I dont have enough weights to do the kind of test I was hoping to
basically I have a joint of aprox 3 sq in so Ild need 1275 lbs to hang from each joint

nice move with the ax
Im sure that bounce effect has resulted in more than a few quick trips to the ER
although a friend of mine is a ER doctor and you would not believe some of the brilliant things that land folks in the room

a few days in the water is not enough
I want this thing to outlive the kids and then some
sound as the day it was built

Im going to use glue kinda sparingly but what glue I use I want to last
this business about the epoxy people not wanting to say how long the stuff lasts is kinda a crock if you ask me
they know exactly how long it lasts and if it was all that spectacular they would be singing it out loud and clear
my bet is its got some kind of exponential decay rate or something equally as tragic for those who have learned to depend on it

Im still curious about a bellow waterline glue that will stick for a hundred years

what ever happened to pine pitch
if they could keep pine tar gooey it would work just fine
only trouble with old school Oakum is it dries out and crumbles

[alan white]

Ive been using T2 for a long time and T3 since its been out I have some now setting up on a drafting table Im building, but in regards to ship building I am not so sure about it any more.

yup its got lots of good qualities but this biz about other glues not sticking with it is kinda worrying. My builds tend to not fall apart and so Ive really never had to fix one but I have had to do my share of cleaning and new part making when it comes to stuff people bring me to fix. Most of the time I dont really know what kind of glue was used to best thing is to just cut it out or remake the part.

the bits about catastrophic failure aren't to comforting either

At this point I'll be going with epoxy used sparingly in key areas like scarfs and stringer connections, keel connections bla bla bla although Ive never done anything other than keyed hook scarfs with bolts or pins and never had a problem. That said, there is always room for improvement.

but lathering cheep wood in hugely expensive epoxy rather than just buy good water resistant wood in the first place kinda just shows a lack of craftsmanship IMHO.

although I got a serious urge to do a little diagonal planking on my build to gain that stiffness it so obviously imparts. My only hesitation is that the process involves the use of so much epoxy. Thus my avid interest in the thread

Alan I think they call that deja vu didnt we have this conversation about fox locked vs suicide locked before. Ill give you that many books only use the term fox locked in reference to both types of joints at least the ones that Ive seen but Ill stick with what old Roby taught me on this one. A suicide lock is, in my book, a stopped mortise with a wedged tenon. Idea being that if you screw it up ( easy to do ) you have wrecked the joint and will be starting over. The fox lock refers to a through tenon generally left proud and tapered with a wedge. A joint that is significantly easier and one that I have used many times.

It is unfortunate that someone like Roby didnt write down all his knowledge of old time shipbuilding and I regret that I didnt pay closer attention to all that he had to teach us kids. I notice no ones ever heard of a bridle cut either, nor do most people seem to know what a feather tenon is, or a hammer beam or even what cruck work is.

somehow Alan I think we could go round and round on woodworking terminology and both have a great time doing so

but back to glue and this time lets stay there
can I or cant I use pl in below water line applications ?
guess Ill have to boil some up for myself and float it in a lake for a season or two
it sure would be easy to use and Ive used the stuff on countless home builds so I know how strong that stuff is

well this I guess will be my motivation for today since Ive got nothing else to do and the stock market doesnt look conducive to a well planned trade today.
Im going to cut some test pieces of red ceder and glue em with pl give em a few days to dry and throw several outside in the sun to bake Ill boil a few others and just soak a few as well
that and drink beer

dam the things I do for excitement

an hour or so later and Ive got a number of test pieces drying
the glue is LNP-901 construction adhesive
I have multiple test subjects of
red ceder to red ceder
red ceder to white oak
and white oak to white oak
all will be tested to destruction with the results checked for consistency through multiple test subjects
I placed each piece cross grain to one another face to face
Ill boil all pieces for say two hours and then soak em for a few weeks then Ill dry em out and test them to destruction
I will be hanging each piece once dried with a known weight suspended from it for 24 hours at which point more weight will be added until each piece fails

I got pictures of what Ive done so far but they are pretty boring actually


PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
LIQUID NAILS
®
Heavy Duty Construction Adhesive, LN-901/LNP-901,
bridges gaps, provides 10 minutes working time and produces a
durable, flexible, and impact-resistant bond on the heaviest materials.
With antioxidants added for superior all-weather performance.

(when applied below 90ºF)

NO. 99444/LN-901/LNP-901 0905
Base: Synthetic rubber & resin
Type: Solvent
Color: Tan
Appearance: Smooth
Application Temperature:
40° to 100° F (5° to 38° C)
Service Temperature:
-20° to 140° F (-29° to 60° C)
Adhesion: Excellent
Consistency: Short buttery
Bridging Ability: Excellent
Extrudability: Easy
Shear Strength:
24 hours – 225 psi
48 hours – 300 psi
7 days – >425 psi
Durability: Excellent; 20 year life
Flexibility: Excellent
Water Resistance: Excellent
Exterior Weathering: Very good;
adhesive not recommended
for direct exposure to sunlight
Odor: Mild solvent
Working Time: 10 minutes
Weight Per Gallon: 9.4 pounds (1.12 kg/l)
Viscosity: 230,000 CPS
Volatiles: 35%
Solids: 65%
Flammability: Extremely flammable;
nonflammable when dry
Flash Point: 1°F (-17°C)
Coverage:
30 lineal ft. using 1/4" bead for 10 fl.oz.;
85 lineal ft. using 1/4" bead for 28 fl.oz.
Shelf Life: 12 months from date of purchase
Specifications: Exceeds ASTM C-557
MAX VOC: 401 GPL
LN-901/LNP-901

at which point my question is
if its got a shelf life of 12 months why isnt there a expiration date or a manufactured date on the tube or the box it came in
and yes I did notice the stuff seemed to have separated some with there being brief areas where the glue seemed more viscus than usual
thus the need for multiple test subjects

oh
and looks like Ill let the stuff dry for 7 days before I start boiling it
although I did just notice the twenty year life span
not nearly enough
course whats the life span of epoxy ?

well that was interesting
west system is strangely quiet on the life span of there product

Good for you. I look forward to the results. I think, by the way, that shelf life is evident, but you don't know until you try to squeeze it out and it is like tar. I have used it for years for subfloors, and it can't be stored for too long.

[alan white]

Boston: Yes I used PL in a hull but only once, on an ama for a sailing canoe. It worked but did not get a real good testing, although the canoe+ama was moored in the water for a few days. No ill effects, that might have been a good varnish job but it only had 3 coats.

When I took it home and ritually demolished it I found it hard to believe how tough it was. It was about 7ft x 7" square and made from cheap door skin (1/8" luan ply) with 3/8" sq chine logs and a couple of ply bulkheads consisting of 90% holes. First I put concrete blocks under each end and stood on it: didn't creak so I repeatedly jumped on it: ditto, it felt stiffer than most house floors. So my buddy and I both stood on it, about 425 lb total: no effect. So I took a two-handed axe to it, that bounced off the chine though it did take a nick out of the corner; nearly took a nick out of me as I wasn't expecting that.
In the end I had to saw the damned thing up to get it to fit in the garbage. It was very clear that the wood failed before the glue but luan is not much of a test. If PL was a bit cheaper I might do more with it. There's a problem I have using it, it wants to expand so thin ply has to be clamped every 3 inches or so.

I'm surprised the damned thing didn't crawl back out of the garbage and reassemble itself while you were sleeping.

[longfellow]

Boston,
In my testing, while I did not use the kind of diagnostic equipment to quantify the forces at which the glues failed, I can at least advise you with confidence and true sincerity, not to use PL below the water line. This adhesive actually fell apart on its own on the test tank (fresh water). That's scary enough for me. Both R and TIII required "much" static force and impulsive force (impact strength) to make fail. This is a great thread and I think my final contribution is to suggest that you drift, bolt or screw LWL and beneath keel members with bedding compound. If you want assurance that an adhesive will outlast you, then you will spend the rest of your life testing, right? There is such a thing as accelerated life cycle testing but the classic test proceedure really doesn't mimic the real passage of time, it just rapidly cycles temp/RH/ loads. Go with what we all read in most boatbuilding books and which you already have confidence in and are good at; proven joinery, high level of craftsmanship, and fasteners (Though I know you perfer 'all wood' which I also like in concept) with a non-hardening compound at faying surfaces below LWL and whatever adhesive you find works well in your own testing, above. Just my two cents.

[Boston]

been using all wood fasteners and nice snug fitting joints for years and years and I say its what made those old ships from previous centuries last so well.
Old Ironsides is still floating today, not likely to see that with a fiberglass build two hundred years from today but it sure was common in that era of building even in boats that were getting hit with 12lb cannon fire. The epoxy people are all proud of themselves cause one boat from 30 years ago is still floating, wow, stop the presses. how many of the old time sailing ships are still floating today after well over a hundred years, and many after several hundred years, almost every major port has one. England cant find enough room for all the old timers they have. I sailed in the bicentennial tall ships race and it had at least a dozen tall ships well over a hundred years old.
I think its reasonable to expect no less than what our ancestors were capable of and maybe if Im lucky make a few improvements.

Ill take your word on the pl sounds like you know your business but Ill still boil up a few and see what floats just for fun

not sure why Im thinking of testing the epoxy, seems like we all agree it works even if for an unspecified period of time

sounds like what I should do is test a few timbers

say 4x8 nominal each 8'
scarfed in the middle
one with my favorite keyed hook scarf at dead center and pinned
one with a typical scarf and bolted

Ill most likely end up using epoxy to bed the pins but I got this ingrained idea that its joinery not glue that holds things together
basically if it isnt broke, dont fix it

my theory
when a joint fails its often because of differences in flexibility between the fasteners and the surrounding material which creates a focal point for stress, without that focal point; as in an all wood joint, the pressure is more evenly distributed and the material more evenly loaded. Done properly an all wood joint should, over time,outperform a bolted one. ( now that will cause a ruckus )

Thing is time is the key factor. A new joint hasn't had the time it takes to adversely affect the metal fasteners like we all know it does. An all wood joint should be able to handle more than adequate stresses for longer periods of time than a joint that depends on glue and bolts.

My two cents; and it does kinda put my head on the chopping block to say it but modern methods suck, they were devised for profitability not longevity.

I like the idea that this thread proposed that basic experimentation by the folks actually doing the work is key to understanding the various materials qualifications. I implicitly distrust any industry that brings us Dioxin, PCB and co2 claiming its good for us.

Ill take my timbers up to CU materials lab
they got a press up there that will work perfectly

so whats up with glue
did we just come to the conclusion that even though no one has any clue how long epoxy lasts its still the glue of choice

[alan white]

You raise some good points, Boston, though I have my own reasons for not using, say, trunnels on my current kayak build. Number one on the list is the bigger hole weakens the piece being attached. Two, while the trunnel if the same wood ought to shrink and expand the same as the base piece, the grain direction is still creating a situation similar to the screw, that is, wood expansion is not mirrored in the direction of the trunnels length. Three, no positive lock exists short of friction, so gluing is necessary, and if a tight fit is considered a means of locking, there is the problem of creating a new force that acts to put the attaqched piece in tension, a tendancy to split if too tightly done.
On the other hand, planking such as carvel would tend to self-bolster the planking against splitting, and so that application would sometimes be ideal.
Regarding epoxy, I agree that toxicity is a big negative. I had a kid in my shop the other day and he said, "Wow! It smells good in here!".
That's how I want my work environment to smell.
I'm interested in any method that is strong and long lasting and also is pleasant and safe to do. One under-utilized method, I believe, is lashing wood parts together. In the old days, I'm sure no known lashing material could have lasted long. Sinew, rope, twine, etc., all rot readily. Nowadays, skin on frame kayaks are lashed in the old way but nobody would think of using gut except on a museum piece. They use synthetic thread or artificial sinew as it's called. Nobody (almost) thought to apply this to larger boats but why not? No other method leaves the parts as whole and therefore strong as wrapping something around to hold them together. And imagine repairing something that need only be cut with a sharp knife and the pieces fall apart.
I myself used copper nails on a kayak I'm building and while they are strong I would have used lashings but for the speed difference. Next time I may use lashings anyway. Done correctly, with good tension, lashings in conjunction with pegs seems to overcome the tension splitting mentioned.
We're left, thyen, with the glue used to keep pegs secure, which ought not to dissolve if submerged for a while. I like the gap-filling but not the messiness of gorilla type glues, and now I am thinking also about T3, but epoxy, while ideal for many purposes not related to how I want to work, is far too inconvenient for most small gluing jobs.
Regarding screws, I use them a lot but I'm interested in going to trunnels where practical.

[Boston]

having no particular experience with marine glues other than the occasional run in ages ago with resourcenol or epoxy I am surprised that there is no great improvements in the field

cloth covering eh
never really tried it but those old kayaks sure are cool

We're left, thyen, with the glue used to keep pegs secure, which ought not to dissolve if submerged for a while.

a few tricks to pinning
moisture content and temp
the pin should go in cold and dry as can be
the stock we would cut pins from was kept out in the sun for a few days to dry it out more than the wood its going to be set in
makes a big difference in sticking power
also for white oak about 1/64 over on the pins in a half inch hole seems to be about right assuming your gluing the pins in then I typically go with three longitudinal flat spots on each pin for glue relief
if you dont flute the pins your only getting about half the holding power of the glue and the pressure will only serve to raise the pin, also that 1/64 might be a little to much. if you use factory made dowels your really screwing yourself because they turn the flutes (its easier and more profitable I guess ) in the wrong direction which weakens the pin, also those pins are typically pine, weak already and so you will lose more pins before you get em successfully driven home. Also those pins tend to be cut metric and all my titanium bits that I dowel with are SAE, so good luck with that.

its not just the pressure of an unglued pin that holds it in, its the fibers; if you dont over compress it, that do something with the transfer of moisture that seems to kinda bind em a little, Im not sure exactly how it works but after a few years a properly prepared and set pin is impossible to get out. On planking the oak pins in oak frames never had any trouble sticking and the ceder swells so much it grips the pin with a death grip and there is no getting it apart after its been in the water for a few years, if your dealing with thin planking a tapered head on the pin is a nice touch and although it takes forever to turn out a zillion pins, it works really well.

gluing pins is an art in itself
when I glue pins I lather the pin with glue and also drip some into the hole ( I been using T2 and 3 but thats not going to work on my boat build )
the wrong glue like pl will only heave the pin right back out of the hole, never tried gorilla glue
epoxy seems to work ok but I wonder about its longevity or even the need for it in the first place in a pin that has historically already proven itself over hundreds of years
never tried Res. glue in a pin hole but I might who knows although Res definitely seems to have a life span
hmmmm
anyone know the life span of Resourcinol ( Im sure I spelled that wrong )
formaldehyde based glue if I remember
mmmm yummy formaldehyde

I been reading up on Black Locust wood and it seems its been traditionally used to pin white oak for centuries
news to me
Ill have to give it a try

[alan white]

One usually says to himself, "this boat should be built to last for...", and that determines what's done to get it to last that long. in the old days, iron fasteners were fine because other issues would kill the boat by the time the iron expanded and split the ribs.
There is, I think, elegance in such thinking. The highest and best level of boat construction was a comprimise between a number of factors. Initial cost, long term cost, longevity, availability of materials, availability of trained boatwrights, cosmetics (end use as a work boat or a pleasure boat?), and God knows what else.
Each situation differed. No one way was best, only the best under the circumstances.
Nowadays, we can spend a lot more time on details that would have been overkill to our ancestors. We sand when a spoke-shaved finish would do. We look at very long term lifespans, use products that are expensive like epoxy and cloth and marine plywood.
I tend to be moving towards "Good usable servive life" of thirty years if maintained and far less if not. I don't include painting or occasional caulking. I'd never expect those things to last much over five to seven years at best.
i drive home a screw and try to imagine it years later. I think we all do. When I am able to imagine it having lasted about thirty years of regular but caring use, I'm okay with that. A yacht of 30 feet might warrant looking sixty years down the line (but with some major resoration at times along the way.
Wood alone appears to have the best chance of lasting, though bronze fasteners are very long-lived. I've heard of hulls built with carvel and wedged seams (same wood) that lasted for a very long time if well stored or better, kept year round in cold salt water.
George Buehler may have the most practical solution with his lumber yard designs. You can't go sailing if you can't afford a boat to begin with.

[ancient kayaker]

I am sure that the old timers would very quickly have taken to using modern glues if they had been available back then, but they would have had reservations.

The great thing about a glued joint is, the joint is continuous for the entire length. The joint matches the full strength of the wood resulting in great hull integrity. In effect the hull becomes a single piece of complexly curved wood. This is in contrast with a joint using fasteners where the strength is concentrated at the fastener locations. The fasteners are stronger than the wood they are put into, but the wood has to be thicker to accept the fasteners and distribute strain from the fastener locations into the rest of the wood. Thus glued wood construction can be far lighter. Nothing new here.

There is another side to the coin however; the thicker members used in traditionally built boats flex less. Flexing in a lightly built hull can allow stress concentration to occur under some circumstances, with the potential for local joint failure. Because a glued joint relatively poor resistance to peeling it can then basically unzip along much of its length, resulting in catastrophic failure rather than a simple leak.

Strategically-located fasteners can prevent that. A fastener may loosen without letting go, whereas when glue fails it no longer holds. The downside of fasteners is, if they are stressed in normal use rather than just sitting there as a backup to a glued joint, they can work loose, so they require maintenance.

As mentioned before, I happily build ultra-light canoes relying entirely on glued joints but I would not do that for a larger boat. A small, undecked canoe lacks the freeboard and stability to handle heavy sea conditions so it is not designed to withstand wave forces, and other stresses are mild due to low speed and the fact that the driving forces are distributed by the paddler’s body. They are largely maintenance free although I do not glass them, because their wood members do not flex, the joints are not worked, and the paint and varnish film retains its integrity so water does not penetrate.

[Boston]

hooked and bridled scarfs in the keel timbers tree nailed as always with tapered heads and some form of glue

what form of glue being the key question
I guess Im stuck with epoxy but given the industry it comes from I just have this innate distrust of the stuff
might as well be asking the tobacco industry about lung cancer

[Jimbo1490]

Just stay away from the typical aliphatic amine curing agents and you'll be fine. Many adhesive type epoxy formulations use a polyamide curing agent. The polyamide family is characterized by very low toxicity/sentization. They are generally undesirable as curing agents for laminating resins as they tend to be thick and somewhat low in AHEW (the objective test for curing agent 'potency') which means you need a lot. Typical mix ratios are between 1:1 and 2:1 resin/curing agent. The typical unmodified viscosity will be about like cold honey. A small amount of thixotropy will get you a consistency like peanut butter, ideal for adhesive bonding apps. The cured resin also is not terribly hard but instead somewhat rubbery and very tough. These are all desirable properties in an adhesive. They do not usually give you a high Tg, even with ETC or post curing. EMI-24 can get you everything (low tox, high Tg, thin visc., low mix ratio) if you can put up with extremely loooooooooong cure time at room temp (measured in days) or can use elevated temp cure (ETC).

Jimbo

[nordvindcrew]

We've used PL premium on all the wood boats we've built ( 5 ). they are all trailered and don't stay in the water. no glue joint has ever failed. The joints are glued and fastened, but the fastening is more about clamping than structural strength. These boats are cheap builds and not expected to live more than ten years so my conclusions my not be valid for an heirloom quality boat. Materials used are luan ply, white pine and construction grade spruce. We treat the luan with a restoration wood hardener and it lasts very well for an inexpensive material. My current project is a skin on frame rowing boat. It uses white cedar gunnels, laminated yellow cedar stem and stern post and ribs with deck grade mahogany for the stringers. Everything is fastened with Pl premium and a minimum of small brass screws. We'll have to see how it stands up to the streses of very hard rowing.

[Boston]

I dont mind the curing time at all Jim, the keel assembly can sit while I do other things. Its the durability that Im interested in. The type of joinery Im planning for each area is basic glueles type interlocking stuff, obviously depends on the area but the joint would normally be glueless so set up time is irrelevant. Only thing Im curious about is if the pins will heave out of there holes before the glue sets up. a glueles pin will stay put but some glues are just terrible and you end up standing there watching so see if the pins start rising on you. Maybe I just wont glue the pins cause once moisture begins to seep back into the wood after its kiln dried those pins are going nowhere.

Whats this EMI-24 stuff
Ill have to look that up

Not sure, I guess most people haven't seen a bridled hook scarf, thats another joint that isnt going anywhere glue or no, that level of jointery being rare even in the finest of yachts. I dont think set up time is a big issue

Thing to remember is that so far ( Im still considering Black Locust ) the keel timbers are going to be white oak and gluing it can be tricky. So the glue needs to be WO compatible. Even if the keel isnt WO there will be lots of components that are. Tragic reality is that T3 works fine on WO if it just didnt have this funny habit of popping loose, well that and nothing sticks to it once its dried. I need the build to be serviceable as well as functional


So Jim what do you have on this EMI-24 stuff
I want longest possible durability and the industry is strangely quiet about that

[rasorinc]

3M has a marine division and I have contacted them by email and always got answers back. My last question was the best adhesive to glue an aluminum boat together without bolts or screws. I got a very detailed message back with instructions. Goggle their web site. Tell them what your doing and your needs.

[Jimbo1490]

The 3M 2216 (http://www.3m.com/intl/kr/img/adh/adhesives/s-w/2216TDS.pdf) (clear) is an awesome epoxy structural adhesive. It's modified with CTBN rubber and is unbelievably tough and fatigue resistant. I have tried to beat a joint bonded with 2216 apart with a sledge hammer and was unable and that was on cast aluminum. I repaired a broken Red Devil paint shaker with it once (the part that clamps the cans) and it lasted for years. It never actually failed; I just got rid of that old shaker and bought a new one. So 2216 does not mind cyclic loading.

Here's the dope on EMI-24:


31211

31212

Jimbo

[Boston]

yikes
am I converting that correctly

stuff says its got 64 mpa tensile strength
that converts to 9284.41 psi or did I do something wrong with the conversion

way more than Ill ever need given that White Oak has a tensile strength of 13,900 psi
and Black Locust is 19,400 psi

hows its compatibility with WO

once again they list shelf life of the components but not the expected working life of the glue itself
what is up with the closed mouth policy concerning the life span of this type of glue. I thought Ild find some info eventually but the more I look the less I find.

has anyone ever dismantled a old epoxy glued wooden boat
if so what was the age of the build and what was the condition of the epoxy

B

[Boston]

An authoritive source on wood fatigue is ANC-18, the 1951 Army, Navy joint publication titled, 'The Design of Wood Aircraft Structures', wherein they simply state 'wood is less sensitive to rapidly repeated loads than are the more crystalline structural materials (metals), resulting in a higher endurance limit in proportion to the ultimate strength."

there is a graph but it wont come up
basically at 10^6 loading cycles laminated wood is vastly superior to all but carbon fiber in its ability to maintain a higher % of its ultimate strength and it is marginally superior to carbon fiber at that, however at 10^7 cycles it is marginally inferior to carbon fiber. Would love to have seen this graph with solid wood included

the wood considered was douglas fir laminated in epoxy as compared to aluminum carbon fiber steal and glass fiber reinforced

[ancient kayaker]

... White Oak has a tensile strength of 13,900 psi ...

...has anyone ever dismantled a old epoxy glued wooden boat ...
B

With a normal wood joint it's the across-grain strength that counts, and that's about 10x less than with-the-grain.

white oak 1300 psi
white pine 550 psi
southern longleaf pine 1200 psi

I would have thought that, with epoxy adhesives being available since the 50's, by now someone would have reported any deterioration. I suspect that the cross-molecular linking would continue at a low level making it stronger with time. Of course, it would have had to be protected from UV all that time.

[Boston]

I have only spent a few hours looking but so far have found no research on the degeneration of epoxies

Ive got an original copy of Wood A Manual For Its Uses In Wooden Vessels
Bureau Of Ships, United States Navy 1943
its got the strengths measure in about twenty different ways
all of which are highly dependent of moisture content which is also listed
on average white oak or black locust seems to be the winner for frame construction and workability of the wood

[rasorinc]

Black Locust has a better sounding name than white oak. So it gets my vote.

[Boston]

Im starting to like the stuff myself and I can get it cheep from a mill in Pennsylvania

[Jimbo1490]

Epoxies are generally extremely resistant to degradation due to environmental attack, except from UV light. If they have an Achilles heel, exposure to UV light would be it.

Jimbo

[PAR]

Live oak is a better choice for framing, then either white oak or locust.

[Boston]

live oak is great for certain areas of framing, like knees and floors maybe horn timbers and stems depending, basically whatever requires consistent strength through sawn pieces; but for frames and stringers, long straight keel members and deck beams Im better off with WO or Black Locust as its straighter grains and longer lengths will come in handy in these areas. I might go with tulip poplar for the planking instead of red ceder since its a little stronger and I can get clear grain poplar for half what I can get #1 cedar for. and if the Locust people actually come through for me ( I have never used that mill before) then I might even go with locust frames as well. Not sure who suggested the stuff but it was a great idea, the more I look into it the better I like it.

Went to a party tonight and frankly had a rotten time. The limo couldnt hold everyone and broke down, the burlesque show was full of fat people, and the restaurant was about a hundred degrees. Not sure how you could plan it all out so badly but dam if you dont know how to plan a party ask for a little help
only saving grace was I wasnt paying for it so I guess they can screw up all they want eh

B

[ancient kayaker]

Hey Boston, some good info there. A lot of traditional boat-building wood choices are based on local availability of old-growth timber and compatibility with traditional methods of building. Modern conditions combined with glue-intensive construction methods may need a rethink. Cross-grain strength and peeling resistance is more important than ability to hold fasteners, and straight grain is more important than ever with lightweight scantling. Strangely good poplar is more expensive here than cedar. Go figure.

Sorry about the fat people at the burlesque show; perhaps you should have looked at the stage?

[pebbletripper]

Just a few of my own observations here in the uk .Don't ever try using alyphatic in the real cold it turns into what I would describe as glueing with flour and water ! All the pu 's ive used when exposed to sunlight eventually turn black and desintegrate although great for resisting sharp shock loads. Resorcinol planks I glued edge to edge for a skiff project provided some spare for a bird table roof some 6 years ago . No finish applied and still intact with no deterioration. Good with oily woods .Don't use wood filler powder as you dont know what wood was used better to use coconut shell filler powder - have you ever seen a rotten coconut? Also one magic use of coconut shell filler powder is that it is an electrolite and can make epoxy useable with radio frequency curing - brilliant in colder climes and stops resorcinol destroying itself with lightning running through the joint. Having said all that providing that TB3 isn't permanently exposed to water it is more forgiving than resocinol which is very brital if not in a tight joint. Hope thats of interest regards all.

[Boston]

they were on stage that was the problem
my theory is that if your pear shaped
cover that shit up

um I can give you the info on a mill ( I haven't used em before ) that has clear yellow poplar cheaper than #1 ceder if you want it although Im not so sure about the durability of yellow ( tulip ) poplar. Seems like it would not be as good as the ceder

oh and ya this business of slathering inferior materials in glue and calling it modern just makes my skin crawl
ok fiberglass is highly profitable for manufactures due both the need for a lower skill set and its compatibility with mas production methods. Both dam handy in a world were the average grade completed is dropping like a rock.
but for joy of craftsmanship nothing beats an old school build, although some of those steal constructions look dam intense, Ild love; once I get back on the water, to get involved with one of those.

that said Mas's build looks like a lot of fun and
would be a challenge to do it right so go Mas
cant wait to see it coming along

best
B

[PAR]

Live oak steams better, doesn't check, split or rot as easily as white oak. I'm not sure white kind of lengths you need, but I have a 24" diameter by 35' and an 18" by 22' log in my side yard now. Clear, straight grained live oak.

Yellow poplar used to be a common planking material, but it's getting rare and the stuff they're calling yellow poplar now is second growth or plantation, which is much less rot resistant and weaker.

I know you like to think that traditional methods with more rot resistant species may be a better way to go Boston. This can be the case for land based structures, but the marine environment is considerably different. The current generation of boat owners just don't understand the process of keeping traditionally built wooden structures, let alone the routine to insure they have a long life. Most folks just wait until a problem causes another problem which eventually becomes big enough to require repairs. This wasn't the case a few generations ago, where routine maintenance was commonly preformed and planking could last 50 years without epoxy, again. Enter the plastics.

Without these protocols in place, a modern owner of a traditional wooden structure (marine of course) will find his planking shot at 15 years, frames beginning to crack from tension in 20 and wholesale refurbishing necessary in just a few decades.

In light of these realities, maintenance reduction through the use of materials and methods has stepped up. Enter the plastics. The urethanes started this off in the early 50's and it's snow balled ever since with mostly good results. A classic example would be traditional lapstrake hulls, clenched or riveted together. It wasn't long before these hulls needed to "take up", which was an accepted aspect of ownership. As early as the late 1950's polyurethanes and polysulfide were used in the lap seams and suddenly these boats could remain leak free for a generation.

Development has progressed at a steady rate since and for the most part have dramatically improved and increased the viability of wooden boats. Frankly, if it wasn't for epoxy, the wooden boat revival seen at the end of the 80's and all through the 90's to present day, wouldn't have occurred.

As a result, wooden boats now are lighter, by a considerable amount. Unheard of amounts, compared to traditional build methods. Rot resistance, abrasion resistance and especially water proofness have been greatly enhanced.

I have an 8 ton trawler 40' on deck. When I dragged it ashore for a replanking a few years ago, I lost a ton in moisture gain, when it dried out. This is 12.5% of the weight of the boat, just freeloading. Think of the additional fuel or supplies I could carry, without any drag penalty if I could control the moisture gain. Enter plastics. The boat has a composite bottom with an encapsulated out layer of 3/8" cedar, over two diagonal layers of 3/8" plywood with an inner layer of more 3/8" cedar. It looks exactly the same as the old carvel planking, except it's stable, doesn't absorb moisture by the ton and can't spring open a butt block like it use to do. This planking will out live me, without leaking or rotting.

These plastics have caused several new building methods to revive the home boat building market. This was a vibrant community, particularly after WWII, but pretty much died off in the late 60's and early 70's. Now a huge resurgence has opened up and boats are getting built everywhere.

[Jimbo1490]

PAR

Your last post brought to mind the weeks right after the 2004 storms. Here's what I was doing in October '04:

31274

That's a 90cc saw with a 24" bar. For the he bigger wood I installed a 30" bar. Too much work, but it seemed such a waste to just burn all that beautiful wood in a series of big bonfires, so I tried my hand at milling planks; BIG ones.

Jimbo

[Boston]

live oak is great stuff no doubt its just that when we did used to use it, we were cutting in rather than steaming it much
stuff is generally got so many twists and turns in it its great for cutting oddball pieces out of. Your logs are worth a fortune as Im sure you know. It seems I got a great handle on Black locust and I can get it actually cheaper than either white oak or live (haven't checked the price of live yet but this build Im thinkin of just doesn't have that many crazy tight turns to it) and live has always been the most expensive oak
I always thought the reason live oak steamed better was cause the grain was kinda going in the direction of a bend anyway, we also used to chainsaw bits and pieces from the log and then go flatten em out some in the shop.

If I go with the diagonal planking and Im leaning strongly in that direction then Ill likely also slather glue on at least two of those layers. Ill just be cringing while I do it hoping Im not making some irreparable mistake. I dont work with glues much and for whatever reasons just hate depending on chemicals rather than craftsmanship.

I haven't built a boat in way to long and Im sure all you guys have a better handle on whats changed IE why Im here

one thing we are going to agree on wholeheartedly though is that people just dont know how to take care of stuff any more and traditional build is dam heavier than a modern say cold mold or laminated structure. This basic lack of knowledge of how to take care of wood is at least somewhat responsible for the advent of plastics in boating. you can be a nitwit and your boat might still last thirty years or so and thats about as long as its going to last until it starts to delaminate or whatever. A wood build has potential to last hundreds of years and since I love working with wood its the way for me to go, that and given that I will have all the time in the world to start carving the hammer beams ( not generally a nautical term ) this thing just might end up more art than boat. By which I hope to entice someone to keep her in good order for some time after my departure.

in the end I have no choice but to grant you all of your previous
I just have not developed any comfort level yet with some of the newer methods that depend so heavily on chemicals
which you gotta admit are untried over the centuries like the old school methods are
when the epoxy industry turns to a 30 year old boat as a shining example of longevity
I get a little worried
if Im going to build that old 57 and retire on it I want it rock solid, positively buoyant and not dependent on some chemical company to stick together
I also want it dry inside
so the idea of diagonal planking the hull is acceptable as all fastenings and wood can be exactly as they would normally be, its just that I've the option to encapsulate each piece as I go
lots slower but lots stiffer in the end.
your going to end up convincing me its just that I would prefer you were wrong

ya Im sure that sounded stupid
but your logic is sound
I just hate the modern age
and most of all hate replacing craftsmanship for chemicals

I still havent gotten a straight answer about how long epoxy is supposed to last
someone somewhere has bound to have studied that

oh and nice call on the checking
WO checks like a mad man the instant it hits the kiln
you have to dry that stuff at half the speed you can dry just about anything else
Ill throw you some points on that one cause its clear you have actually worked with the stuff from start to finish
which is more than I could say for about 95% of the folks who talk about anything at all
B

[PAR]

Live oak has an interlocking grain, which is one of the reasons it's so tough. The grain can be quite straight, but it's inter connected fibers make it challenging to work, particularly by hand. Given the choice of your two species, I'll take live oak over either any time and pay the slight weight penalty.

Before plastics, we were using just as nasty of compounds on wood as preventives. I'm reminded of the green stuff we used years ago. It's nothing like what's available now, but the moment you opened a can, it was instantly understood you didn't want to wear, eat or bath in the stuff. Judging by what it did to local plants it was dripped on, as it was splashed about with brushes and low pressure sprayers, clearly you run the risk of three headed babies as your offspring.

You might change your mind about traditional boat building, if you get a chance to live with one for a while. The tar that was used to seal just about everything also got all over everything. Bathing in pine gum spirits was the only way to get it off you and also not very good for your either.

Epoxy does have a life span, though it's quite long if UV doesn't get at it. It'll out live the folks your estate wills it too, if cared for. No wooden boat can survive very long without scheduled replacements, which means the planking may outlive you, but your kids will likely have to replace some or all of it, as part of a maintenance schedule. Planking is actually considered a "consumable" element, just like an oil filter.

I understand you hesitations on goo, but once you get some experience with it, you'll change your mind like I did, years ago.

Do some tests, like painting a board and partly immersing it for a year. Do the same with an encapsulated and painted board. Pick an especially easily rotted species and see the dramatic difference modern goo can make. When you see one with substantial rot and it's embalmed neighbor in pristine condition in the same environment, it's pretty compelling.

[Boston]

the stuff I always will remember was the leaded paste we used to use all the time or the pitch we used on the oakum
that crap only came off as you say with pine solvent but at least it was basic pine tar.
I think the stuff you are referring to was the old petroleum based tar that my grand dad refused to let in the shop. I never worked with it but he would swear up a storm if anyone even mentioned it.
and that green shit was that anything like copper bottom paint cause that stuff kills everything including three headed babies
ever read the warning on the back of the can
youch

oh
and ya I remember blades tend to follow the grain of live oak
course we were often cutting it with a band saw which is prone to following anyway, but still live oak or curly maple were terrible to try and cut straight. Tends to break blades, although Black Locust is supposed to be a pain in the ass to work with. As long as it routers ok Im happy cause Im going to be beveling all non bearing surfaces throughout the build. Its also got to steam well and not split on me when I start making Swiss cheese out of it with pins

thanks for the info Ill look into what live costs these days and how hard it is to get good straight pieces my theory is its harder to get and way more expensive also its properties are not listed in any of my reference guides so Im working blind until I actually look up its stats
B

ps
in 45 minutes of looking I found one guy who is got some for sale and its 5 times the cost of White Oak
any ideas

[PAR]

Move to the south. I have several acres of the stuff, mixed with southern yellow, water oak (one of the reds), sycamore, etc. all in very densely packed stands, which is just what you want for tall, straight stock. You're in fir country.

[Boston]

ah I can order from anywhere in the country and have it shipped
I ship lumber all the time
or I used to when I had work
thing is you never quite know what your getting till you get a sample and check it
even then your pretty much at the mercy of your supplier

you never know though I might just get smart and move to were the timber is rather than have the timber shipped here
no reason I couldnt build on the banks of the Mississippi in some podunk town thats cheep cheep cheep
(outside of flood zone )

[MichaelC]

For those of us already living with the results of epoxy poisoning, this is a great thread. [I had on the safety equipment, ripped a glove where I had an open cut, and a few days later developed the bad rash and it went from there. Now I cannot even be in the presence of the sanding without breaking out ... dang it.] Both Culler and Buehler suggest possibly using pin e tar or Atco roofing tar to laminate keel members with bolts. Anyone have experience there? I had thought to use TB3, but this thread is making me rethink that. I am beginning construction of a Buehler 30' Emily. I can't find appropriate timber, so will laminate keel and deadwood from 2 X stock, and need to put something in between them - glue or not, for I would bolt the hell out of it even with epoxy.

[Jimbo1490]

There are some really good 2 part polyurethane adhesives. They have their own sensitizing issues, but that's really a separate issue from epoxy sensitization; you could be sensitized to epoxy but not 2 part poly. Contact a 3M adhesives rep as they are familiar with the wide range of 3m adhesive offerings.

Jimbo

[Boston]

have you considered glue laminated beams
they are a standard construction item and are assembled using Resourcinol glue or at least they are at Western Millwork were I get mine

Ive used pine tar for just about everything when I was a kid working in my grand fathers shop
its primitive but it works and was a standard base component of that lead sludge that we used to slather on wood pins that would be exposed to the weather before painting them

not sure how good a glue it is but we also used to use it in conjunction with dowels and you'd be lucky if you could drill it out after you stuck it with pine tar let alone have it fall out

best
B

[MichaelC]

Thanks Jimbo and Boston for your replies. I will definitely check out the 3M 2 part adhesives. I have thought about using glue lams for the deadwood. I do not know how much they would cost me in the sizes I need. Whether I use poly glues or pine tar, I will be bolting heavily anyway. Needless to say, it is an exciting time. I appreciate the in put.

[rasorinc]

MichaelC call any lumber yard in your area for a quote on GluLams. Unless your going huge- price should be $6.00 to $7.00 lineal foot. I'm assuming you do not want a curve built in. Thats $$$$

[PAR]

Tar and roofing cements can only be considered bedding compounds, not adhesives. Buehler designs use very littl glue, bolts, screws and nails are he's fastening systems of choice. He does recommend sheathing his plywood planked designs, but other wise he's a PVA, plastic resin or resorcinol man.

Do your research carefully and select the glues you'll need for the specific application. Epoxy can cover a much wider range of tasks and doesn't require ti fits or clamping pressure to work well. This coupled with it's strength makes it hard to look somewhere else. No one glue gets it all done, but epoxy does darn near all of it, while the others can be left wanting in some situations.

[Boston]

glue lams are cheap and easy and come in any size you want
as eliptical arch beams they are kinda pricey as Res mentioned
but they may have some old molds that they made for someone elses project that approximate the arch you are after
you might get lucky you never know
the price goes from 6~12 bucks a foot to about 15 a foot for arched sections
oh and the arches will not be radii of more less than about 20 ft either as those guys have no idea of how to steam bend

the finger joints in those things are unbelievable strong and the glue is all you need specify to feel confident that thing would do the trick
they will make whatever you want if you just make it clear what you want
they probably already use an interior exterior glue but label them for indoor use only for liability purposes

best
B

oh I dont think we ever used pine tar as a glue but often as bedding just as Par said

[rasorinc]

I should add that if you want curves or angles in a beam for frames it is quite easy to build your own Lams using 3/4" thick by 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,wide. You can bend 3/4" stock and using epoxy and 1 piece length boards you will have a solid beam. I made 20
foot lams for beams in a Quansut HUT build I used 2x4s in a full 90* arch, bent one at a time untill shape was held. I was able to leave them 1.5" thick and bent them around pegs.

[Boston]

Bueler is a lumber yard builder if I remember
he probably has a hole section in his book on glue lams
back yard boat builder is the book I think

oh
my test pieces of pl glued are ready for boiling
might do a few tomorrow and see what shakes loose

I have
red ceder to red ceder
white oak to white oak
and
red ceder to white oak
glued up and cured for seven days

[rasorinc]

Bos, I'll bet the weakest bond will be the oak to oak. What adhesive did you use? A guy told me awhile back that when gluing W. oak with epoxy he rough sanded the area then took a truss plate and hammered in into both sides of the joint to make a series of penetrating holes before clamping it under soft pressure. Never had a failure he said.

[PAR]

All three should fail in the wood fibers, if the clamping pressure and environmentals were sufficient.

[Boston]

ah
no hints
I need to find what I find without any preconceptions of what the results should be
ok
this thread is now off limits till I finnish boiling things

[Boston]

ok so the girl is off to work and I got a few hours to use all her nicest pots and pans to start boiling stuff

unfortunately even if I use everything I made these test pieces a tad large and cant fit to many at a time on the stove

that means my results are going to be scewed as the soak time ( 24 hours ) before boiling will vary between test subject invalidating the results to some degree

oh well
I just hope all the lovely tanins coming out of this white oak doesn't stain the girls pots and pans or the next thing boiling will be my nuts

love
B

[rasorinc]

Go rent a large soup pot, and a single electris burner and do it outside. It's better than losing important body parts.

[Boston]

2 hour boil
LNP-901

first group of pieces out of the pot
2 of red ceder to red ceder
2 of red ceder to white oak
2 of white oak to white oak

each piece was glued and clamped with 5.5 lbs per sq in for 7 days and then placed under fresh water for 48 hrs then boiled for 2 hours

none survived
in all cases the glue turned back to its original consistency and any pretense of adhesion was lost

all 6 pieces failed the boil test

6 pieces were not boiled
they were tested soaking wet for strength of bond under direct load only

each piece failed with the application of 70 lbs per sq in or less
none survived more than 70 lbs per sq in
the average being ~50 lbs per sq in

manufacturers specs claim
Shear Strength: ( dry )
24 hours – 225 psi
48 hours – 300 psi
7 days – >425 psi

with the red ceder to red ceder bond being weakest and the white oak to white oak bond being the strongest
this may have been something to do with the permiability of the wood to H2O not of relevance to the performance of the glue

my conclusion would be that this glue is completely unsuitable for structural marine use

B

ps
the pots turned out ok
the girl need never know

[Jimbo1490]

Looks like back to epoxy. Choose an adhesive with a simple formula; BPA resin, cabo-o-sil and a polyamide curing agent. Polyamides give you 'rubbery' cured-state properties, with very high fracture toughness and elongation. Their high mix ratio (typically between 1:1 and 2:1) and high viscosity is ideal for a hand mix adhesive. They are also extremely forgiving of mixing errors, giving close to the same properties with errors of 25% on either side of a 'perfect' (stoichiometric) mix. They are considered low toxicity and low sensitizing. You won't need to add any reactive modifiers (these are all 'highly sensitizing') as you do not need either lower viscosity or more fracture toughness/elongation; you've got plenty of both.

The 1:1 Glue from Fasco is just such a product. Both components about like vaseline in consistency. Long work life, overnight cure. Very low odor.

Jimbo

[MichaelC]

Okay, so in the absence of any glues that will work for sure underwater except epoxy, which I can no longer use, I guess it is wholebunchabolts time. So I will use pine tar as a sealer, not a glue, and bolt the bejeezis out'n it. We all sure appreciate your testing system, Boston. Nice work. Glad to hear her pots and your nuts survived intact.

[ancient kayaker]

Just varnish the sucker until it glows, and dry it after use. The boat that is.

[rasorinc]

Bos, go with the best, proven, epoxy adhesive mix. Save on the cost of aplying the 3 protective coats if you are going to go that route. Don't save on the adhesive. Glen-L offers Poxy Grip at a fair price and have decades of experience with it and 1,000s of boats built using and it is middle priced. I'm using it but will go with RAKA for the coatings. It is a 1 to 1 mix with either fast or slow hardiners or a combination of both. Lots of info on it on their site. Used to build 8' to 60' boats and proven. That's all. Best, Stan P.S. It has been boiled to death and does not fail. click on epoxy. http://www.glen-l.com
click on boat building supplies for price. Just info for you. The only other adhesive (epoxy) I would consider is West. but $$$$

[ancient kayaker]

System Three have the Silvertip range of adhesives that also come in a self-mixing dispenser that fits a caulking gun. Use with a disposable mixing tip. Rather expensive, but no mixing, extremely convenient and quick, and much easier to prevent skin contact. The Gelmagic one is nice, non-sagging, stays where you put it. You should still use protective gloves of course.

[rasorinc]

AK I have used the system 3 tubes also - it is sold by Glen-L but a 68' boat would use how many tubes??? It does make it easy and is compatable with Poxy Grip.

[ancient kayaker]

My boats are a shade smaller! It's a pity S3 doesn't have a cartridge refill system. The replaceable mixer tips are only a couple of dollars but even those can be tossed into the freezer for reuse.

For my canoes, most of the joints are made with Titebond III while the planks are flat, to glue the inwales and chine logs to the sheers and bottom; becaue those joints are flat they fit perfectly and the titebond really works well under those conditions. Even if water does manage to get through the paint or varnish and touch the joint it can only moisten the edge of the glue layer.

Epoxy is only used for the bilge planks, as those joints are the only ones that are exposed to the water. I usually get a pretty good fit on those joints, too. As a result one cartridge does two or three boats even though those joints are long.

The detail work such as outwales, decks and such is also completed using Titebond unless a joint presents a special challenge and is too difficult to make with a perfect fit. I find a few minutes geting a good joint is paid back by the hours I would otherwise spend waiting for epoxy to set.

Of course, there's only 30 hours or so building time per canoe (they take longer to varnish/paint than they do to build) so epoxy set times can be a significant contribution to time from concept to launch; for a larger boat that might not be so important.

I am currently adapting my canoe construction method to a small sailboat. So far I have only identified two joints that will need epoxy, but that might increase as I get more into it. Most of my time on boats is spent in the design and planning stages to make the actual construction as easy and trouble-free as possible. I am sure I spend as much time as anyone else on any particular boat, but my satisfaction comes from having the job go smoothly rather than spending my hours nibbling away at the wood. Just the way I work.

Boston's work (post #2) leaves me amazed. I have a retired cabinet maker buddy who can do that sort of thing; however, he has trouble locating the joints on my boats - so do I for that matter. There are many paths to a good end result.

[rasorinc]

In building a 60' + boat there is a question of insurance to be dealt with. Not using (modern) materials such as epoxy and bolts might just present a problem as a survey will be required to insure and lack of these materials and methods
could make the boat uninsurable or at the very least very expensive.
In Oregon the state does not license builders but the Coast Guard does the inspections and issues the appropriate certifications. I moved here 18 months ago and have had meetings with the Coast Guard re: being a professional boat builder. I do not anticipate any problems and their certifications means standard insurance costs.
Others on this forum I am sure know more about this and I hope they chime in. It could become a real problem to Bos and I would not want that.
Even steam power and wood fires could hinder his goals. Best, Stan

[Boston]

point well taken
my plan is to hire someone more experienced with modern rules and building to go over my prints
not saying Ill take all there advice but Ill sure listen to it
Ill also get an agent to take a look and give me the scoop on insurance
Lloyds can eat my shorts if they dont like my engine

having specialized in building oddball structures Ive got somewhat of a handle on that
I built a triple pyramid house for some guy down in Manitou Springs just opposite the Indian ruins up on the top of the hill there with the copper and glass roof on it. If anyone knows the area.
it also has no metal fasteners in it and its superstructure is made entirely of wood, least it was until a freak tornado came along and trashed everything but the beam work I did and with all wood joints as well held fine, it was everything else that disappeared to Oz The guy sold it and the new guy rebuilt it with some metal fasteners but hired me to do all the glass again. He got a different contractor that his insurance foisted on him to do the rebuild and they did a terrible job. My all wood joinery was completely against code but the inspector was so impressed he passed me anyway.
Same thing with that conservatory I posted on a thread somewhere in this thing. It was not even close to code built out of Sitka spruce as originally spec designated but I switched it to White Oak and it passed no problem

point is that if you do a nice job of it
the inspectors will learn to respect you and give you tons of slack
if you do a conventional job
you can be a butcher, follow the code to the letter and still get past
but the inspectors will be leary of every little thing

now these boat inspectors might be a pain in the ass
but at one time there were steam engines running ships
and all of em had boilers
I even suspect there is a provision for Treenails somewhere and its just a mater of digging it up

Im all about doing my homework on this thing before I even cut the first chunk of wood.
Ill definitely take the advisement to be careful of the land sharks

thanks for the tip
B

[Jimbo1490]

if you do a conventional job
you can be a butcher, follow the code to the letter and still get past
but the inspectors will be leary of every little thing

This has been the standard M.O. for most of the big US home building companies since the end of WWII.

Jimbo

[Boston]

ok heard rumors that shellac is used as a bedding compound, which was news to me, we always used pine tar but hey, Im old and shellac is expensive ok. I did what I was told and liked it, or else.
so now Im waiting to hear from the chellac people about what substance they recommend for me to test. Im going to treat it like I did the PL and see what happens. Soak it boil it, then strength test, I think while Im at it Ill try some Man Oh War varnish and see how well it sticks things together

the suggestion was made to bed diagonal planking in shellac and forget the epoxy, its half the money and far less messy. Besides I get to work with alcohol that way.

cheers
B

[longfellow]

Hello again Boston,
I am glad to see that this thread has enjoyed a healthy life. Hopefully some folks have benefitted from it some.
I use shellac as a 'temporary preservative only, but as such and having used it so for a while now, I wouldn't build without it. I lived with the unceasing checking of air dried lumber throoughout the build process, struggled to keep it under control with painted timber ends and repairs using epoxy, that once I saw how effective shellac is, there is never a can with a jar of denatured alcohol far away.
I coat any major structural member that I know will be sitting around my shop, once the rough shape is gotten out of the rough-sawn beams that I buy, while I am fitting, spiling... If it is going to be some time before I can get a more permanent coating of finish (varnish, paint..) on that timber, it gets a coat. And even if it is coated, if I remove the coat as I am fitting it but am not yet done and I am going to close up the shop, especially if I know that a fairly drastic change in weather (humidity really) is comming, it gets another coat before I close up shop. It is cheap insurance for a piece of timber that has hours of labor invested, is a great sealer and foundation for the final finishes that I typically use, and not too expensive.
Hey, I never asked through the entire "Titebond" thread what you're building. Do you mind sharing? Just curious.
Ed

[Boston]

deciding exactly what to build has been an organic process

this is what Im planning out and so far looks to be my most likely candidate for a retirement home

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg

its basically this one stretched with a railing shrowd hiding the aft cabin house roof and windows a slightly taller pilot house and a canopy

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/consolidated46antiguemotoryachtWidg.jpg

I have lines for this hull

http://www.asiyachtworld.com/elco/slides/14.JPG

I like the lines I found and love the layout of the 57 flat top with the smaller 46 Widgeon being a good look at the after cabin arraignment.

Ill be retiring back to the water and I can feel the boat building bug catching up with me fast. I want to build an old elco flat top 57 I found lines for. pellet fueled steam engines, Im going with two reversible 50 to 125 hp 435 ft/lb each single expansion single stage steam engines max rpm of 1500+. a shrouded 22x18 prop spinning between 700 and 1000 rpm. no transmission necessary. and at cruising speed I need only one engine.

Ive done some number crunching to determine what works for power and the group has been helping out with some of the science Im not familiar
with

calculated for the 125hp steam engine spinning at 900 rpm and 70 hp, the second set of numbers in { } is for the same engine at max potential
engine torque = 408 ft/lb { 438 }
shaft hp at prop = 68 ( no gear box ) { 121 }
prop rpm = 900 { 1500 }
prop torque = 396 ft/lb { 425 }
displacement = 25 tons
wl =57'
speed in knots = 9
speed length ratio = 1.192
shaft hp available = 68 { 121 }
pounds pr shaft hp available = 736 { 412 }
hp required at prop = 70
lb pr shaft hp required = 716
80% of max prop shaft rpm =720 { 1200 }
theoretical required prop pitch = 15.2 { 9.12 }
1) estimates slip of un-shrouded prop = 40.01%
2) estimated slip of shrouded prop = 17%
1) required un-shrouded prop pitch at 9 knots = 21" at 25" diameter rpm = 720 { 15" at 22" diameter rpm = 1200}
2) required shrouded prop pitch at 9 knots = 18" at 22" diameter rpm = 720 { 12" at 22" diameter rpm = 1200 }

or as Rick determined

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/31375d1240954488-high-torque-engines-picture-17.png

with the most efficient hull speed being about 9 knots

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/31352d1240903716-high-torque-engines-boston_drag.png

with vawt generators hidden beneath the canopy to augment the electrical system and a few solar cells on the top

Ive not built anything in terms of a boat since I was a kid, although Ive kept my skills alive building other things. What I need is alternatives to chemical intensive materials as I want this thing to be as eco friendly as reasonably possible

This was my last major build a few years ago, myself and the two guys working for me built it from the foundation hole up in about a year for a local Jeweler

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/sc012e3e24.jpg

back when I was out on the cape my grand Dad had us help him fix up local boats for mostly the lobster guys. I learned a lot mostly the hard way and was every year back for more till I was about 17 then we moved way inland and Ive missed it ever since. I started out on the water and Ive every intention of ending up there. what I dont remember much of is glue. and I hate slathering chemicals all over everything and calling it good.

best
hope you like my next project piece
B

Im narrowing down my materials to black locust for the keel and bwl stringers, white oak for everything else in the skeleton, cherry raised panel for the deck houses with maple floors and decks, ceder cabin tops, poplar diagonal planking shellaced every layer with a black locust outer layer, and 4x1/4 tempered lamy windows all with storm shutters. The aft master cabin will have a wet bar, entertainment cabinet, wood stove, built in matching, wardrobes and two sets of stairs flared with turned railings one going up to the aft deck and one going forward up to the pilot house, and a decent set of book shelves.

the glues are as of yet not determined and the bottom coat will be copper bottom over something
probably epoxy

bilge keels are a distinct possibility to help in the motion at sea

one element I have yet to discus with the group is that I have an idea for a structural member integral to the aft cabin walls. it would be a girder like structure following the walls down to the framing of the hull going for and aft throughout the vessel. would make for a really stiff boat and seriously add strength for a small weight gain.
the estimated tonnage of the original was 21 and Im going minimalistic on the finish wall treatments thus enabling me to put that weight into the frame and its associated components. Ive calculated the amount of fuel I would need to get across the Atlantic to England at 6 tons of pellets and so this is the primary cargo capacity requirement

Ive begun recalculating for the new design considerations it order to begin putting a preliminary design on paper


ply strips are week perpendicular to the surface grain so I was going to avoid using it in the sheathing of the hull, (at least 5 ply is, 9 is the bomb but I wont be finding it in 1/2"). Black Locust is great for structural members of the frame exactly as you previously stated but heavy, might add to much weight but would sure be worth using. Please send that link again as I must have missed it or misplaced it. Ply is also heavy and typically that stuff uses Resourcenol which out gasses formaldehyde and has been known to cause serious respiratory complications.
Ive given serious consideration to increasing the spacing of the framing to a typical 16oc spec just to keep my brain on straight
thats another reason Im after the stats on cold molding
which I guess I got at +25% ( wood for wood ? )
so if I consider same wood and same thickness I could go 25% greater spacing on the frames

poplar is 25% heavier than red ceder and about 30% stronger depends on how you want to measure it with a modulus of elasticity of 1,120 lb/sq (ceder) vs 1,500 (yellow poplar) at 12% moisture content being about 34% stronger and an impact bending limit of 8,600 lb/sq (ceder) vs 13,500 lb/sq (poplar) or 57% stronger at the same 12% moisture content

means poplar would allow me at the same thickness to gain ~30% spacing for a ttl of ~25% + ~30% or ~55% of 9" spacing is ~14" spacing
and then I increased the size of the frames on average from 1 5/8 x 1 5/8 to 1 7/8 x 2 1/2 or ~ nearly 78%
which gives me the 16" spacing for the frames with a significant gain in strength throughout the structure

and I have yet to calculate the weight gain but it only needs to be bellow the typical take up of red ceder and Im good to go

hmmmm
57 x 12 = 684 / 16 = 43 ribs
as apposed to 684 / 9 = 76 ribs
or 77% fewer ribs at 78% greater mass pr rib
well that worked out

but the greater spacing kinda makes me want to thicken the hull from 1 1/4 to maybe 1 3/4 or about 40% using the same four layer system and thus the same amount of epoxy say an inner layer of 1/2 two layers of 3/8 diagonal and one more of 1/2 exactly as Ras suggested
although Im starting to warm up to the idea of a final layer of black locust, at least bellow the line, and since its so much stronger I could go thinner on that last layer, say whatever the weight difference dictates, maybe.

so the sheathing material (poplar) weighs in at 28% heavier pr cubic foot and I added 40% which works out for each square foot of planking to be 2.2 lb/sq ft for ceder at 1 1/4 and 3.9 lb/sq ft for poplar at 1.75 or 77% heavier

the boat is 57' long and an avarage rib length of 22' ( measuring strong just for the sake of argument ) and I get 1,254 sq ft of surface area
cedar would weigh in at 2,758.8 lbs
poplar would weigh in at 4,890.6 lbs

and that's within the 1 1/2 tons I roughly calculated for take up in an old school ceder hull
means the boat floats about were it should and yet is far stronger than it was

that was back when I was thinking of epoxy and the cold molding method but it was pointed out that this method is not all its cracked up to be
a subsequent suggestion of using 9lb shellac between all layers is what Is now on the top of my list of possibilities
as you can see
this has been a very organic process

Ive also calculated for the ttl materials list and I came out well under the 21 ton displacement even though I beefed up some structural components. leaves room for little things like food and water

[PAR]

Hull speed for the Elco 57 was 10.1 knots. You will not go much faster then this without a few thousand HP on tap.

One of your requirements was an ocean passage making cruiser. You do realize, neither the 45 nor the 57 are very well suited to open water work, for many reasons.

[Boston]

10.19
dont shortchange me man :D

Im going through the preliminaries one aspect at a time and altering things as needed
comes back to that part where at some point i need a naval engineer
the underbody needs some reconfiguring in order to be most efficient and Ive got no clue as to what direction that configuration might take, as it is there are obvious issues with taking that thing out across the water, a few being say the windows or the light scantlings or the high center of gravity. All of which I have begun to address. It may certainly be that in the end I am unable to make an open water cruiser out of it, but I wont know till I try.

What Iv noticed in being a contractor is that part of the job is saving the customer form themselves. People want me to build the dumbest stuff sometimes, or in a way that is least efficient or some combination thereof. I am pretty determined not to be one of those, that said there is an appeal to that old elco that is worth overcoming a few problems, if its reasonable to do so. If its not reasonable to do so, Im sure that conclusion will make itself evident eventually

There is at least one naval engineer I know who has already redesigned the old elco underbody into what he claims is an extremely efficient hull form, he sent me his designs and asked that I not post them or discuss what he has done in order to achieve the significant improvement in performance, I am bound to honer his request. Thing is he included several design elements I dont really care for and Im still looking at options in terms of how to alter the hull to achieve a better performance.

the center of gravity issue might be one to address sooner than later although that will be dependent on what underbody I go with and so Ive avoided it for now

ideas are always appreciated

cheers
B

there are numerous examples of ocean going vessels who's hull forms could be modified to fit under the old elco

http://www.kastenmarine.com/ocean_express_aft_sm.jpg

stick the elco deck plan onto it
change the sheer line add a barrel to the stern and alter the canoe style transom and deal with the balance issues that presents
Im ok with chine as long as its not intended to go full planing as that's waistfull of fuel

another possibility Ive been reading up on all day is bilge keels

[Boston]

bilge keels look like they will definitely kill some roll issues
I posted this on another thread but its worth posting here as well since our last was concerning simple alterations to a design that would make it more sea worthy
if sized correctly they do not need to add dramatically to wetted surface area as the central keel area can be significantly reduced
B

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/RHY_RON/ROLLING_OF.html


this guys got some serious idea going on his hull form
He is at Mcgowan Marine Design
and he is working with the same basic design Im after
He is also however really funny about linking to his site
so if you want to check it out its a semi displacement tunnel hull
at
mcgowanmarinedesign.com

http://www.mcgowanmarinedesign.com/update%20Jan07/Sulis%20P&Pm.jpg

[Boston]

back to titebond testing

Ive made some arched beams using white oak and titebond for a non marine related job Im working on

these beams are only six feet long 2" x 1 1/2"
I have measured the highth of the arch and will be allowing each to sit for a while before final assembly
I know titebond can "creep"
so I thought Ild measure any "creeping" I can find along with the initial spring of the beam as it comes out of the mold
Ill post details as I get em

[ancient kayaker]

I've heard mention of Titebond III creeping from several sources but haven't heard of any actual cases, and I haven't noticed it happen on my work either, so it will be interesting to hear of your results. However, I mostly use softwoods where the wood strength is probably insufficient to bring about creep.

[Boston]

each piece was molded out of 6, 1/4 x 2" cold bent white oak for a ttl thickness of 1 1/2
each was allowed a full 24 hours in the molds
clamp pressure was sufficient to remove all "dead" spaces from between the leaves
I did not pay verry good attention to the rough length of each set of leaves so the length is not as relevant as the highth of the arch as measured off the floor
each arched beam was molded at 81 3/4 long as measured straight across from end to end
and also molded to 17 3/8 from the base ( floor ) to the highest point of the arch
coming out of the molds each of the two pieces I have completed sprung to
1st piece 81 1/8 and 16 3/4
2nd piece 82 1/4 and 16 3/4 strong

the spring I was expecting
its any additional motion Im after measuring

I am molding up the third piece now

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0011.jpg

[hoytedow]

Nice work.

[PAR]

I'm not sure of your bending jig, but generally with all the aliphatic resin adhesives, you want lots of clamping pressure, not just "remove all dead space" within the contact areas.

Generally you'll get about 10% to 12% "spring back" while steam bending green stock. You'll get more spring back if bending kiln dried material and also if "dry bending" as much as 20% spring back.

Compensating for this takes a little experience, as each species will react differently, but generally you over bend the predicted amount of spring back, so it will "relax" into the radius desired.

If you have a 10' radius you want your stock to conform to, make your jig to a radius of 9' (10%), 8' 6" (15%), 8' (20%) as needed. The same applies to ellipses, "S" or other curves, which also can be "resized" to suit spring back.

On the "free form" curves, that seem to be the case in the above image, you have no idea what you'll get. Internal stresses and density differences will cause each to be quite different if stacked on top of each other with moderate pressure and permitting the wood to "find it's own way" in the curve.

[Boston]

hi Par

ya its been a long time since I bothered bending anything so if my terminology is a tad rusty oh well. I need to gain some experience in this area so I have started incorporating more curved forms into some of the finish work Ive been designing

Titebond recommends that clamping pressure not be excessive
basically dont squeeze all the glue out of the joint
I use a lot of this type of glue and I notice that even if the clamps seem tight when first applied 24 hours later they have gotten lighter as the glue sets up

not sure if this is a good or bad sign but it seems to be nearly always the case whether clamping bent or straight

the curve didnt have to be anything to specific so I used a batten
a true ogivoil section would not looked very good in this application
I considered the envelope method of drawing a parabola but it wasnt that critical and I needed to leave a short straight section at each end for joinery
these things get incorporated into a raised panel skirt
stock was kiln dried and bent cold ( dry ) so I used fairly thin pieces
1/4 thick and 2" wide
so far they are holding fairly steady after having sprung back 1/8 in the last 24 hours for a total of 3/4 in 48 hours from there original arch height of 17 3/8

the majority of the clamping pressure was applied via the four lower clamps with the upper three clamps assisting in keeping the steel perpendicular, although Im sure they did contribute in some significant way to overall clamp pressure. I tend to have a pretty firm grip and actually break clamps from time to time so although I should probably just use more clamps with less pressure each, I often forget and just use what I need
those little pins that hold the handle to the screw tend to sheer off when I get after em
I have a box of replacements handy

I new the pieces would spring somewhat but given all the variables and the non critical nature of the curve I did not make any effort to calculate it before hand

Im going to guess that leaf thickness and consistency is key in getting a consistent result from a similar material

will be interesting to see if my results correspond to your estimates
how much time are you considering when you calculate spring back

I just thought since I was making em anyway Ild measure out what they did and post it

[ancient kayaker]

Boston: Titebond III is reported to prefer about 5 psi (although the manufacturers specify ludicrously high pressures) which is doable for a flat joint, but difficult to achieve uniformly across an arch. However, I think your test is very representative of what one might do in practice for an arch, which is more to the point than establishing a theoretically attainable performance.

I calculated a springback of 0.41 in an arch of this width and height made from 6 identical lams, using a spreadsheet that (I think) applies to this case. If the calc is right, the extra 0.215 springback may be due to creep in the glue: I am not sure how long Titebond III needs to get to ful strength. The manufacturer says

"Our solvent free products may reach full strength in twenty four hours under warm and dry conditions, but will require several days longer in damp or cool conditions"

[Boston]

you have a spread sheet for this ?

heavy pressure eh
news to me
hmmmmmmm
Ild like to read that
on the bottle it say's moderate pressure
or at least I thought it did

I had 86x2x10 sqaure inches of surface area being glued or
1720 square inches actually only 860 square inches of glue
at 5 lbs each that should have been 4,300 lbs
hmmm
600 lbs on arverage each clamp
its looking like Par was right
I wonder how much each clamp is capable of applying
I sure cranked those things to get everything into contact
I had four cranked tight and three on pretty tight

each arch was given a full 24 hours in the jig
temp was an average of say 70 degrees
Im an outdoor sports kinda guy so night time was likely 55~60 deg day 75~80

ok so I just had to go look up clamps and there various abilities to apply pressure
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3DewAAAAAAMBAJ%26pg%3DPA100%26lpg%3DPA100%26dq%3Dhow%2Bmuch%2Bpressure%2Bcan%2Ba%2Bpipe%2Bclamp%2Bapply%26source%3Dbl%26ots%3DNFTVWlFinU%26sig%3DXXzzpaD2WxyDPxXZkQnguZhPJgg%26hl%3Den%26ei%3DSAu1StqECcmH8Qb7rsypDQ%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dbook_result%26ct%3Dresult%26resnum%3D1&ei=SAu1StqECcmH8Qb7rsypDQ&rct=j&q=how+much+pressure+can+a+pipe+clamp+apply&usg=AFQjCNEo4UofacFLzOpajhI6tkFkbrifaQ&sig2=1DsuPntHeOQvK0ur7FPoXA

just under the picture of all the pipe clamps there is a paragraph that estimated pipe clamp pressure max at 1403 lbs
its just to the right of the smaller heading "how much clamping pressure do you need"
personally
Im not buying it
its probably half that
good call
I should have used a few more clamps

[PAR]

TiteBond III is 80% full strength in 24 hours, but can take a week of more to reach full, thin film cure. The thicker the glue line the longer this takes. I've had pooled TiteBond III that was wet a few weeks later under the crusted exterior "skin". Unless you live in Arizona's desert, expect these types of glues to take a good week to completely cure in tight, well fitting joints.

[Boston]

dam
your good
ok
I did not surface the joints
I got a thing for sharp blades and high blade speeds
so when I resaw'd these "lams"? I didnt shine em up any before I glued em
there were no blade ridges and Ive always thought that titebond kinda likes a rough sanded surface anyway
which is pretty much what I had

a week eh
interesting

Ill be messuring these things over the next four or five days or so anyway
so Ill watch for any continued movement

[hoytedow]

You can never own too many clamps.

[Boston]

oh I have a stack of em
I just didnt have a problem getting all the lams/ leaves ? to compress with what I used
I think par was just suggesting I use more pressure in the future
the steel keeps things nice and straight and combined with the drywall distributes the pressure evenly over the work
as long as the drywall holds up and doesnt try to lift away
thing seems to work fine

[ancient kayaker]

You can never own too many clamps.

-I know, I know!
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/sailboats/33688d1249069691-small-sailboat-design-advice-requested-7outwales.jpg

you have a spread sheet for this ?

-It’s a bit too scrappy to make public, but it predicts the curve adopted by a piece of uniform wood bent around either one or two points. I use it for computing optimum mold location(s) for canoe design, to get the plan shape I want. To adapt it to predict spring-back one needs to know how it works.

heavy pressure eh
news to me
hmmmmmmm
Ild like to read that
on the bottle it say's moderate pressure
or at least I thought it did


This is the Titebond III information page, see Application Guidelines under Clamping Pressure
http://www.titebond.com/ProductLineTB.asp?prodline=94&prodcat=1

-I quote “Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)”

Heavy enough for you? I find these figures a bit over the top! I suspect at those pressures there would be very litle glue left inside the joint. According to this, for my wee sailboat with it’s 12' x 1" outwales I needed 6.5 tonnes per ‘wale. My patent plastic pipe clamps (see first link) deliver about 5 psi when spaced at 4" and that works fine for me. But as noted before, I rarely use hardwoods: it’s mostly used at wear points and decoration, for woods like cedar, pine and okoume the full strength of virtually any glue is largely wasted.

[PAR]

I don't think you'd starve joints with these pressures. These adhesives don't really soak in or have the capillary action of epoxy. When hand clamping I crank the crap out of clamps until I threaten the wood I'm clamping. I don't know how close I am to TiteBond's recommendations, but I'll bet it's darn heavy pressure. I'll also go back and check clamp tightness after an hour or two to insure it's still tight.

Urea formaldehyde and plastic resin adhesives are the same way and want lots of pressure or they will fail.

[wardd]

you'd be surprised at the amount of pressure that is exerted by a thread at even moderate torque

[Boston]

well just for fun I bent those two Ive got done a little
didnt budge
and they have a great thunk to em when I sound em
I think they are pretty dam solid
I might start working em tomorrow
Ill slice a rabbit in em for the raised panels and hold off on cutting em for length till the last minute
I also need to trace em for the curved sections of the panels
will post a few picts when Im done
B

[apex1]

So when can we comment on the REAL building??

From Sailors to steamers, (I held back for more than one reason), from steamers to motoryachts.........
now? any boat in sight?

[ancient kayaker]

Boston: is the springback in the arches the same for all 3 samples? If it's creep that would be likely to vary.

there are several things that could result in inadequate glue setting, such as lack of clamping pressure, insufficient clamping time before application of stress, excess moisture due to exterior location at night and temperature variation.

On the other hand if they are all exactly the same it's pure springback and my calculations are off.

[Boston]

they all sprung the exact same amount
but Ill measure again tomorrow the last one that came off the molds today

its been dry here for the last three days since I started the glue ups
and the drips of glue off the pieces are mostly dry
although exactly as par suggested the puddles are not dry yet
some of those were pretty deep as I just slathered on the glue

Apex
I should have some picts by say Wednesday for you if your interested
Ive got to unwrap the raised panel columns I already have installed in order to join the skirts
its the hand rail bends that you will probably want to see though
I make my own hand rails and these are of an unusual section
sorta squarish with some beveling and some fluting
I had to buy a special sander to keep the edges square and still sand down the band saw work
one of those funny looking ones you see every once in a while and wonder what it could possibly be good for

customer wanted me to throw in a kinda Salvador Dali melting clock look to the end caps
but Im not so sure about that
oh I can do it but I dont think it goes with what the rest of the piece looks like
I might mutiny on that plan
depends on what it pays
am doing a custom front door as well
then I suppose its on to the front hall
and then they have an addition in the back as well
oh
they want furniture for there cabin out of all tree slabs
which will be a fun task ( check this out, $6000 for ten pieces of wood )

Im kinda bouncing off the walls to finally have some work to do so as far as Im concerned they can paint it all checkers and polka-dots for all I care
Im just glad to be working

[Pirate Lowe]

I'm new here, this is my first post. I have over 20 years experience as a Tool & Die maker, Machinist, CNC programmer/Operator. I also have Auto CAD and CAD/CAM experience. I have been building wood projects for the last year. I perform at living history events as a 1720's Pirate. I have decided to build a 18' Sailing Dory with Clark Craft plans to use at some of these events. This will be my first boat. I chose the Dory so five or six of us can use it at a time, its stability and ease of construction. It will be primarily oar powered with the mast (s) added later. 1/2" side and a 3/4" bottom.

My questions: Will this glue stand up to the stresses the Plywood would exert after being screwed into place on this project?

What would be a better choice?

Has anyone here used Clark Craft plans?

I had planned to use Titebond III as the only glue to construct this boat. I'm having second thoughts now after reading this post. I was going to use Stainless steel screws to hold everything together until the glue set. I was going to apply a layer of fiberglass cloth and two coats of epoxy to the exterior hull. Inside and out with epoxy paint.

The boat would be used maybe a dozen times a year in bays and harbors in coastal SC. It will be kept in a shed when not in use.

I came here BEFORE I started to do research and get advice to prevent wasting materials and money.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[ancient kayaker]

they all sprung the exact same amount
but Ill measure again tomorrow the last one that came off the molds today


If they are identical that indicates creep - which would vary between samples - is not a factor. I checked my calculations and found an error; springback is 1/(n^2-1) not 1/n^2 as I had assumed. Also the spreadsheet has an approximation that assumes a shallow arch, not true in this case, so my calculated springback is incorrect.

... I had planned to use Titebond III as the only glue ... I was going to use Stainless steel screws to hold everything together until the glue set ... I was going to apply a layer of fiberglass cloth and two coats of epoxy to the exterior hull ... It will be kept in a shed when not in use ...

So far, I have found Titebond III an excellent choice for plywood construction. However, the manufacturers do not recommend it for below the waterline. I use it in most places, but change to epoxy for joints exposed to the water.

Appropriate construction is determined by intended usage, of course. I think the above is OK on a boat that will not be left in the water for extended periods like yours. For any boat that would live at a mooring or marina I'd use epoxy up to the sheerline.

I assume from the use of S/S screws you intend to leave them in place. I think that is a good insurance policy for external joints below the waterline that can be subjected to concentrated loads. However, for glass-reinforced joints it is probably overkill.

[PAR]

Epoxy doesn't stick very well to the TiteBond products, so keep the spills and drips to a bare minimum, so the surfaces aren't contaminated.

TiteBond III isn't a structural adhesive and just barely passes the type I WBP tests. This means use with caution, particularly in conjunction with epoxy sheathings and underwater applications or heavy strain items.

TiteBond III is intended to hold furniture and cabinets together, not highly stressed structural elements. This is especially true if the parts will be "cycled" in loading or wet/dry environments. There are many uses for it on a boat, but it's not a good adhesive for several applications in the marine climate.

It's likely your dory could be built entirely without adhesives, in a traditional fashion. On the other hand you could make it truly watertight with epoxy on the laps and rabbits only. Sheathing is an option, but with your planned usage schedule, you could live without this bother, effort or expense.

[hoytedow]

I don't see resorcinol glue being recommended much in these posts. I have used it for years with satisfactory results. If it has fallen out of favor to the advantage of epoxy, I would be grateful to know why. Would anybody have any knowledge about this?

[Pirate Lowe]

The plans call for plywood on frame construction. Frame built upside down. PW screwed and glued onto frame. Silicon bronze or SS screws to attach PW will be left in. Fiberglass cloth and epoxy over each PW joint then fiberglass cloth and 2 coats of epoxy over entire hull and then paint. 6 inch wide piece of PW on inside of hull glued inside and screwed from outside at each PW joint. Frames are 3 piece, notched for keelson, lap jointed, screwed & glued. Keelson lag bolted to frames and glued.

I'm not building an heirloom, if it'll float for 5 or 6 years I'll be thrilled. I plan on using construction grade materials from Lowes. This is why I was going to use epoxy paint inside and out. If it's firewood in a few years that will not break my heart. I just don't want it to collapse and sink with five or six Pirates on board and cause the loss of expensive swords and other gear second time out.

I was trying to get away from mixing, but since the PW goes on one small piece at a time, I can mix what I need and then repeat.

If using a different glue will increase its life span, so be it. I just don't want to spend $600 on wood and $300 on glue.

Thanks for the quick responce.

[Pirate Lowe]

Clark Craft sells and recommends GL 10 super epoxy glue for the entire build. It's $27 per quart 2 part equal mix.

Mfg. details:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GL-10 equal mix glue type adhesive is the best of its kind on the market today. We have had our GL-10 epoxy glue formu-lated to a thick yet spreadable consistancy so that it will easily stay in place when spread along a vertical surface. GL-10 has an approximate 1 1/2 hours pot life at 70° which is ample time for most projects. Under high stress condi-tions such as an impact, we find that the GL-10 glue line will hold fast and the wood fiber parts either side of the glue line will generally shatter, the mark of an excellent glue. Bonds wood, fiberglass, concrete, glass and most metals, is transparent to amber in color.

Equal mix
No shrinkage
Cures at 35°
Cures on moist wood
Over night cure
Contact pressure
Gap filling
Once cured can be drilled, tapped, machined or sanded.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe I should use this? $74 a Gallon I think. Sounds like good stuff. If I use it throughout the boat it should last 8 or 10 years. That would be fine.

What say ye all? Thank ye in advance.

[hoytedow]

My advice: Don't use construction grade plywood. It won't be that much more for good marine grade plywood, which will leave you much happier with the result. Others here will probably explain better than I, but hollows in construction grade product will very early demonstrate why you were wrong to use it.

[Pirate Lowe]

My advice: Don't use construction grade plywood. It won't be that much more for good marine grade plywood, which will leave you much happier with the result. Others here will probably explain better than I, but hollows in construction grade product will very early demonstrate why you were wrong to use it.

Point taken, thanks. I'll have to find a suppler in my area. I've read about the grades of PW over the last few weeks.

I can buy a nice Dory for around $3,000. I was hoping to build one for under $1,000. So you can see my reasons for using Lowes. LoL

[hoytedow]

Even a less than "nice" dory might be worth you looking into if you have skills at fixing things. You could save some considerable money if you are careful and the dory isn't too less than "nice".

[Boston]

if your going to build it in front of folks Ild go traditional all the way
even maybe wear the triditional garb while you do it and use traditional hand tools
hell you could use pine tar and tree nails and probably get away with a reasonably water tight build
I never was much for plywood but if you have a local mill around somewhere you can get some nice planks cheep and go from there
what the hell you got six pirates anyway
you could keep a couple of em out of trouble adzing and a let em earn there grog

[Pirate Lowe]

Oh crap no, I'm not going to build it in front of witnesses! LoL

I just wanted a boat where 5 or 6 of us could row around and shoot our weapons and participate in the festivities at the wooden boat shows we attend some times.

It would be built here, hoping to get as cheap as possible, hence construction grade PW. But since I have to "glass" and epoxy the hull to do that, I could use Marine PW and just "glass" and epoxy the seams and paint it for the same price and have a better boat. Hmm now I'm stumped.

[Boston]

well then sinking could be part of the act
dont be a such a wimp
I never heard of a pirate scared of getting his sword wet before
you one of them "funny" pirates there swabby?

[Pirate Lowe]

LoL Nope, just we all carry "real" swords, spring steel because we also do fighting demonstrations and we carry real firearms. Swords at $300-$500 each and flintlocks at $450- $600 each would be a big loss if it all went to Davy Jones locker! LoL

We could just leave all the expensive gear ashore I guess.

[Boston]

ya I used to work at the Ren Fair for a few summers long ago
I got all the stuff as well
thats why I was razzing you
hell that hand made leather mug I got ( #28 from some famous mug maker actually ) is worth about $250 and those swords
you got a bargan at a few hundred bucks
flint lock pistol eh
hmmmm
I might have to have one of those
although they got harbor divers you know
so your still lacking any real excuses swab

I say get brave and build it right on the dock
hand tools only
the crowd will love it
if you screw something up
you can argue and chase each other round at sword-point just like the Renaissance fair

best
B

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0018.jpg

someone wanted to see what I was doing with the arches
raised panels are not cut yet but I wanted to dry fit the styles and rails before I traced em

[ancient kayaker]

Pirate L: If it's ply over lumber frame construction it will be difficult to get the zero gap joints that Titebond III insists on, so epoxy is likely your best bet.

Much of the construction ply I've seen recently is shockingly bad quality. If you can't spring for marine ply, look at baltic birch py. Birch is not the ideal choice but if you are going to moor it indoors it won't get a chance to rot and it's strong. A bit heavier though.

However, if you're not in a hurry, shop around. I have bought marine ply well below the usual price on several occasions, one had paint quality surface veneers but was structurally OK, another lot had been water-stained, just the corners but still half-price. I've built up enough stock for a few years of boat building.

Boston: darn, I thought you were going to keep those arches and measure the creep for years. Where's your sense of scientific enquiry?

[Boston]

ya Im all for ya on the crappy quality of ply these days
but Ild go with poplar
its easy to work
stays straight
and cheaper than birch

na
I gotta build this project so I can move on to the next
I was only going to measure the arches for as long as it takes me to use em ( which wont be long at this rate, probably Tuesday the last one will get cut up )
I saved the molds though ( they were just drywall anyway )
I could throw together a few more when Im done
maybe this time Ill use the right amount of pressure and let em sit around a while
once these first three guys are set they wont be able to move anyway as they go between load bearing columns

[Pirate Lowe]

Clark Craft sells and recommends GL 10 super epoxy glue for the entire build. It's $27 per quart 2 part equal mix.

Mfg. details:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GL-10 equal mix glue type adhesive is the best of its kind on the market today. We have had our GL-10 epoxy glue formu-lated to a thick yet spreadable consistancy so that it will easily stay in place when spread along a vertical surface. GL-10 has an approximate 1 1/2 hours pot life at 70° which is ample time for most projects. Under high stress condi-tions such as an impact, we find that the GL-10 glue line will hold fast and the wood fiber parts either side of the glue line will generally shatter, the mark of an excellent glue. Bonds wood, fiberglass, concrete, glass and most metals, is transparent to amber in color.

Equal mix
No shrinkage
Cures at 35°
Cures on moist wood
Over night cure
Contact pressure
Gap filling
Once cured can be drilled, tapped, machined or sanded.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Found a few users in here that have used this stuff. I think I'll go this route. I do want the boat to stay together. Might as well do it right.

[PAR]

Pirate L, don't worry about the Lowe's/Depot lumber, go ahead and use it. You'll be fine, considering the expected lifespan of the boat. Hell, I wouldn't even bother with 'glass sheathing it, I'd just paint it and call it a day, after taping the seams.

Considering the likely joints at the chines and rabbets, I'd use epoxy and I wouldn't use one of the most expensive versions on the market today (G-10 from West). Not that it isn't good stuff, it is, but it's way better then you need. Use Raka or the stuff from Bateau, but there's no reason in the world you need G-10, when these will do at half the price.

Slam, bam some construction grade (make sure it's marked exterior, ground contact, etc.) plywood over the frames, using Ace Hardware stainless sheet metal screws (not the deck screws at Lowe's/Depot) and some good quality porch and deck enamel (not latex, but oil based). The corners where the plywood bottom lands on the sides and where the sides land on the stem and stern (or transom) should be filled and taped with epoxy. This is all you need for a down a dirty boat that will be water tight and last several years if you take reasonable care of it. If you just left it outside with no cover, though able to drain off accumulated rain, she'd last 3 or 4 years fairly easily, with pretty much zero care.

If you kept it under cover, out of the sun, well ventilated and dry, you could get many years out of a build like this. Hell, it will not be the prettiest girl at the dance, but she'll be the kind you like best, cheap and easy to live with.

[Pirate Lowe]

Aye mate I be dancin to yer music! Sweet to me ears it be!

[Boston]

arrrrggg
Pirates

I'll go for the better looking pain in the ass every time Par
a pleasant challenge and way more satisfaction in the end
so to speak

[ancient kayaker]

Great thread. What you say about joints that hold without glue, Boston, is the answer to creep worries. I always use hardwood dowels in joints that are heavily stressed - more reliable than fasteners IMHO.

[Boston]

bingo
I always pin joints
that and if you look every joint in that frame is one form of mortise and tenon or another
Ill run a few pin through from each style to each rail at an angle and it will lock it all together just fine
that and it will stop any creeping in its tracks
I use glue but generally any joint I make should hold with or without it
and thats were the pins come in

[hoytedow]

Aargh,

Never go to sea,
Without double U Dee four-Tee,
Because then without a doubt,
Your sword you won't pull out.
AArgh!:D

[ancient kayaker]

I get it Boston, The glue just stops the pins from coming out!

[Boston]

if you put em in at an angle to one another then ya
they just lock the mortise and tenon work together
but on this job there is tons of glue ups
its a interior quality exterior application basic Victorian era details for the rich and famous
its work and Im having a dam good time working it

hey I just put the first skirt together ( working in the rain today )
second time around everything fit perfectly
once I had mallet'd the whole thing together I could pick it up and shake it
held together just fine on fits
no glue no pins and god forbid no screws

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0021.jpg

[Pirate Lowe]

OK, this seems like a great glue to use to attach the PW to the frame and pretty much everywhere I plan to glue. I love the convenience of the mixing tip and using a standard chalking gun to apply it. System Three Gel Magic Universal Cartridge specs are listed:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
System Three's universal cartridge system that works with standard caulking guns eliminates the need for mixing, as the cartridge's dual chambers ensure the proper ratio, which is mixed in the mixing tip.
Silvertip Gel Magic is a two-part epoxy adhesive that will not sag or run. Designed for wood and other porous materials. No more measuring fillers. Gel Magic components mix into a paste that is ready to be applied to vertical and overhead surfaces without sagging or otherwise making a mess. GelMagic can be post-cured up to 140 degrees for even greater performance.

When fully cured, it is unaffected by water, oil, kerosene, and many other chemicals. It will not stain wood and is immune to fungus and rot. Ideal for stitch and glue, plywood, strip built and glued lap strake construction. As well as a high strength, gap filling, waterproof adhesive for general woodworking and architectural applications.

Lap Shear Strength:

Polyester Laminate: 2800 psi
Concrete: 1100 psi
Wood: 1800 psi
Aluminum: 2200 psi
Galvanized Steel: 1900 psi
Copper: 1700 psi

Strength: Good
Below Water Line (yes/no): No
BRAND: System Three
Material: Epoxy
Number Of Parts: Two Part
Rate Of Cure: Medium
Type: Adhesive
Usage: Bonding


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It says its not recommended below the waterline, but as the red highlighted says, its perfect for stitch and glue, am I not correct in thinking that EVERY seam in a stitch and glue hull is below the water line? WTH? Seems like someone needs to make up their mind.

[ancient kayaker]

... System Three Gel Magic Universal Cartridge specs are listed... System Three's universal cartridge system that works with standard caulking guns eliminates the need for mixing, as the cartridge's dual chambers ensure the proper ratio, which is mixed in the mixing tip. ... When fully cured, it is unaffected by water ...

Below Water Line (yes/no): No ...


Bit of a contradiction there! I have not seen any below the waterline caveat for this product. I've used it below the waterline without problems (so far) but not in boats that remain in the water for extended periods, so for me it's not a real worry.

However, where did you find the “not below the waterline” data” for GelMagic? I thought that only applied to their 5-minute epoxy ”quickbond”, I quote from “The Epoxy Book” -

“Unlike our other epoxy systems Quick Cure (like all similar epoxy products) is water resistant, not water proof. It is fine for intermittent water contact but should not be exposed below the waterline on a boat, for example.”

System Three's cartridges are great to use but too pricey for me. Also the cartridge stops delivering when the plunger appears to be only 3/4 of the way down the tube - something to do with the inner construction no doubt - this can be a real nuisance if you're not expecting it, it runs out half-way down a seam, and it's your last cartridge. Happened to me!

I now use the T-88 structural adhesive which I mix in the usual way; it is a 1:1 mix instead of 2:1, less chance of a mistake, an excellent adhesive but unlike GelMagic it is not non-sagging.

[Pirate Lowe]

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4318
This is where I found the info. I was looking in boat builder central and found the glue and did a search for more info.

I guess if I went this route I would need one or two tubes per stringer. If I got three quarts or a gallon of epoxy I could mix small amounts and mount a piece of PW and repeat. I just liked the ease of use.

[ancient kayaker]

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4318
This is where I found the info ...

I asked System Three about that, here is their response:


[ This is not correct. Someone checked the box wrong. Thanks for catching
this. We will hammer on Jamestown. Jamestown's description (see below) is
correct:

"When fully cured, it is unaffected by water, oil, kerosene, and many other
chemicals. It will not stain wood and is immune to fungus and rot. Ideal for
stitch and glue, plywood, strip built and glued lap strake construction. As
well as a high strength, gap filling, waterproof adhesive for general
woodworking and architectural applications." ]


- so feel free to use Gel Magic below the waterline.

[Pirate Lowe]

That is great! I was wondering why the description said one thing and the other list was different.

Thanks for the help!

Fair winds and following seas mate!

[Pirate Lowe]

I recieved my plans today. Wow, full size prints. They are copy righted from P.W. Blandford Associate of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects.
It reccomends the following glues: Aerolite 306, Cascamite and Beetle A.

It says I'll need about three pounds of glue. Good and bad on these brands?

[ancient kayaker]

Aerolite 306 and Cascamite are Urea-formaldehyde adhesives. They've been around for a long time and have pretty much been replaced by epoxy, but they are both effective and cheaper than epoxy I believe. I haven't used Aerolite 306 but I used to use Cascamite many years ago and it was a good adhesive, one of the best. Aerolite 306 is 2 part, a powder you mix with water and brush on one side of the joint and an activator that goes on the other side. Cascamite is just mixed with water. I believe both are somewhat gap-filling.

They seem to have gone out of style but I would like to try them out I knew where they are sold. They are readily available in the UK I understand.

[Pirate Lowe]

I got off me lazy butt and did a search, figures they would be available in the UK. Read some good and some bad about them. I think I may try the System three gel magic and see how that works. Seems like it may work well for this application. I'll post results when I get to that point.

[Boston]

its pricey and you get about 3/4 of the way out of a tube and done
so dont count on getting full use of all ounces listed

best
B

[Boston]

so here is what I did with those curved sections


http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0024.jpg


http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0022.jpg


that top step is outa here
it was kinda marginal to begin with and its developed a cup going in the wrong direction
that and its season checked on me
so Ill be replacing that soon before I dress the steps
other than that every piece has held straight and level

cheers
B

[ancient kayaker]

... I think I may try the System three gel magic ...

I am sure you will be happy with Gel Magic, as far as results are concerned. If you need a lot using the pumps with regular containers is much cheaper than the cartridges. Aerolite 306 and Cascamite are an older generation of adhesives but people got good results with them. No reason not to use them just because they go back 50 years or so.

its pricey and you get about 3/4 of the way out of a tube and done
so dont count on getting full use of all ounces listed

best
B

I am sure you get the stated amount out of the tube, it's just that you think you have another 3 ounces to go when it runs dry.

[PAR]

You wouldn't believe what you actually end up spending on epoxy and fillers in cartridge format. The handiness factor is what you are buying and you do pay through the nose.

Personally, I use plastic syringes of various sizes and pack my own. It's not especially hard and I have sizes that can do a lot more then the big 10 ounce cartridges can. I can fit into places they can only dream. Of course I have to load and reload, but the savings are huge. The other advantage is I can select the filler mixture to suit the task, including the color.

[ancient kayaker]

I have experimented with using plastic syringes, the type used for farm animals, very cheap and all sorts of sizes. I find them difficult and messy to load however. any tips?

[hoytedow]

Try drawing the epoxy in from the front by suction, rather than spooning or trowelling it in from the back.

[Pirate Lowe]

This method sounds promising.

[PAR]

That's how I usually do it, I draw it up. This allows me to mix up a good size batch, then spread it out really thin on a cold plate, while I use up the goo in the syringe.

If you must "load from astern" then spoon some goo into a cone shaped paper funnel and squeeze it in like a cake decorator's bag.

On the other hand, if you can't draw it up into the syringe, you can't force it out when necessary anyway, so use a bigger tip or syringe.

[keith66]

I am curious that Beetle glue is still around, its an Amino formaldehyde & was made obsolete by better glues like Aerolite 306
I worked at a yard that swore by Beetle glue, as far as i was concerned the only good thing about it was it smelt nice. As a glue it was dreadful & i had several failures that would not have happened with any other glue.

[ancient kayaker]

I have used System Three's T-88 with a syringe but once mixed it is too thick to brush out thin let alone suck up with a syringe. I have tried putting it in the syringe before mixing but that leaves me with the job of mixing it inside the barrel of the syringe. If I "load from astern" - to use Par's exquisite phrase - then I get air in the syringe which makes application intermittent after the air bubble reaches the tip.

I have also tried using a bag like a cake decorator but if it bursts ... however using it to fill a syringe is an idea I haven't tried.

Maybe I'll change to a thinner epoxy, although T-88 is nice to use - stays put. Of course S3 have the cartridges -great to use but expensive. Cost is a problem with epoxy if used in small batches as it is necessary to prepare more than you think you'll need and there's never anything to use it on when you've done the job. Bitch, bitch ...

[PAR]

Terry, if there are any medical supply stores near you, there are many different size and types of syringes. The ones I use are common with dentists and vets. The body (barrel) is about 1" in diameter on the smaller one and the all plastic tip (needle) is curved, starting out quite wide in diameter, maybe 3/8", tapering to about 1/16". Cutting the tip back until you can draw up the goo is the trick.

I haven't used T-88 in years (cost too damn much). I can mix up a T-88 like batch for a fraction of it's cost.

If you get an air bubble, which is fairly common, you can "push" through it, but keep an eye on the barrel as you'll want to know when this is about to occur. I'm not a cake decorator bag person. I used this technique before I discovered syringes and I'll never go back. Mixing in the barrel or syringe body is insane, though the 1" or bigger body syringes make it possible.

I've found that with some experience, you can gauge how much epoxy you need for a task, quite precisely. It's not very often that I'm looking around for something to smear the last dollop of goo on. In this regard, I do try to have things around that need just a touch of goo, for those occasions I have some extra and don't want to waste it. I just repaired my better half's cutting board leg with some extra goo. I didn't have enough to fix the vase we use as an umbrella holder, that the dog broke a few weeks ago, but there's going to be extra goo soon and I got my eye on it.

[Boston]

I have those floating around for the horses
or did before hard times hit
now there just floating around
they are cheaper at the veterinary supply store and are used for irrigating wounds
you can buy em by the box cheaper still

I dont know jack about epoxy but I sure did my share of vetting
the tips cut off no problem and you can get ones with a flexible tip as well
not sure that would do any good for what your using em for but
if you need to get into a tight corner or whatnot

anyway

cheers
B

[ancient kayaker]

I get the vet type from my local farmer's store, I'm in a rural location, but the tips on those have the same ID all the way down so cutting off some doesn't speed up the flow. I'll look to see if there is a type that takes a larger needle, though. It's a pity someone doesn't market a double barrel type like the ones the 3 minute epoxy comes in, with the mixing spout that S3 uses on their cartridge system - that would be great.

[hoytedow]

There are some cheap plastic turkey basters, if the epoxy flows easily enough.

[ancient kayaker]

I will definitely check out those, should be easier to fill and use, maybe even re-usable too if easy to clean. This is a good time of year ...

[PAR]

Epoxy just pops right out of these types of plastics.

[hoytedow]

Yeah, just make sure the residual plug(waste)isn't too large.

[ancient kayaker]

Thanks for the info!