Steel hull isolation: alternatives to foam?

[MarijoV]

Hi everybody, does anybody have some opinion or better yet own experience of steel hull isolation using any alternatives to PU foam spraying or PU sheets? Has anyone ever used some of the common house-building materials (styrofoam sheets, glass wool, etc.) and got away with it?

many thanks, Marijo

[Landlubber]

Marijov, I have used both the foams only, spray and stick on, never again will I use the foam, it causes more troubles than it is worth, and also fitting out nightmares where extra lines or wires are needed, it is almost impossible to get then through, and always something comes up that has been "forgotten", making removal of sections very difficult. The stick on works very well, covers nearly all places and allows removal for either inspection or alterations.

[MarijoV]

Hi Landlubber, thanks a lot for your reply... I am also afraid of the damn thing sticking as hell, which is great now, but in 20 years or at the very first change in interior (wires, pipes,...)??

I can't help thinking some of the usual house-building isolation materials could do. Imagine the yellow glass wool in rolls? If it would be covered with nylon sheeting under the ceiling, maybe it would be damp-free and all of teh condensation would drip to bilges?

I don't know... I built only a house, never a boat, so maybe I'm just plain stupid :-)

[MarijoV]

C'mon guys... so many views, and no comments except Landlubber's? I hope the question is not so dumb no one wishes to comment :-)

[Northman]

Marijov, you may find something useful in this thread:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/fiberglass-composite-boat-building/insulating-fiberglass-hull-24722.html.

[MarijoV]

Thanks Northman.... I actually found that thread and I'm sure going to check it out in details... BR, Marijo

[MarijoV]

Hi Northman, I saw the discussion... lot's of good advices... What about styrofoam (expanded polystiren)? It's unbelievelve cheap, easy to work with, and it does not absorb moisture like rockwoll or glasswool! It's easy to imagine it could simply be glued to the hull, cut with carpet knife when needed and easily replaced... have some experience there?

[daiquiri]

Whatever you decide to do, it is important that you avoid the formation of condensation between the insulation and the hull. So the idea of glueing it tightly against the hull is a good one, whatever insulator you decide to use.
Now about the Styrofoam (PS). It has a close-cell structure and is therefore a good moisture insulator and also a very good thermal insulator.

But it is also inflamable, burns very quickly and releases toxic fumes during combustion. It shouldn't be used at temperatures above 70 °C.
At about 95 °C it will start glassifying and it's good insulating characteristics will start deteriorating.
It also has very low chemical resistance to diesel and gas vapours. PU foams perform much better in that sense.

So bear all those thing in mind when choosing which parts of hull are suitable for insulation with PS.
Don't use it in zones with electrical wiring, those in contact with fuel vapours and in zones which could overheat for whatever reason and reach temperatures above 70 °C.

You can find a safety data sheet for Styrofoam here:
http://engineering.union.edu/~rapoffa/MER214/laboratories/lab7documents/Styrofoam%20MSDS.pdf

[MarijoV]

Daiquiri, thanks! Good advice on avoiding overheating zones... That stuff actually doesn't burn, but melts as long as there is fire close by... so, definitely some caution is needed, but I think it shouldn't be regarded as fuel for fire, or...?

It's compatible with bitumen, so it could perhaps be bedded into a bitumen/tar based glue or similar...

[daiquiri]

That stuff actually doesn't burn, but melts as long as there is fire close by... so, definitely some caution is needed, but I think it shouldn't be regarded as fuel for fire, or...?

It will burn! It will start decomposing at about 250 °C, which is what you see when you put it close to the fire.
But if it reaches a temperature of 450 °C it will start burning and feeding the fire, so it will actually become a fuel.

An open-atmosphere combustion of PS will hardly reach a temperature of 450 °C. That's why you only see it "melting".

But if a fire starts inside a closed structure, particularly if it's a metallic one (like your boat's hull), the temperature might (and I say "will") easily rise above 450 °C. Closed metallic structure acts like a reflector for heat radiation and therefore promotes a rapid temperature build-up to values way above 450 °C.

That's why a small and apparently harmless fire on a vehicle in a road tunnel quickly becomes a catastrophe - the temperatures can easily reach values above 1000+ °C during the arson (up to 1200-1300 °C). A special branch of fire engineering exists (and a lots of related research has been done lately) for this type of structures, for a good reason.

[MarijoV]

hmm... made me think! There is a local manufacturer here claiming "theirs will not burn", but I guess that's out in the open...huh!

[mydauphin]

Hi Northman, I saw the discussion... lot's of good advices... What about styrofoam (expanded polystiren)? It's unbelievelve cheap, easy to work with, and it does not absorb moisture like rockwoll or glasswool! It's easy to imagine it could simply be glued to the hull, cut with carpet knife when needed and easily replaced... have some experience there?

In my humble opinion, after many years.

Run all wiring on ceiling in duct, tubes, raceways etc... where removable roof panels give easy access.
Run plumbing in bilge, water, air, hydraulic, with removable floor sections, covers etc...
Insulation sides of hull with lots of spray in foam, can be done cheaply if you do first, There are many foams that will not catch on fire. Bond interior side panels to foam. No creaking....

Oh, I don't take manufactures fire ratings with a grain of salt. I get my propane torch and see if it burns and what gases it puts out. Your life could depend on it. I was welding on steel boat one time, a someone had put some poly foam where no one knew. The fire that happen was hard to put out, could not get close because of poisionous fumes.... Never have any white poly foam on a boat, it burns like gasoline but even more noxious....

[daiquiri]

Run all wiring on ceiling in duct, tubes, raceways etc... where removable roof panels give easy access.
Run plumbing in bilge, water, air, hydraulic, with removable floor sections, covers etc...
Good point. Yes, it's better to precise that the story about the fire is valid for Styrofoam as much as it is for any other insulating material. At such high temperatures, like those developed in closed-ambient fires, nearly any insulating material is inadequate. Well, maybe the mineral wool - but it has other unwanted characteristics, like moisture-absorption.
The fire needs to be prevented by adopting all the available measures, like the ones suggested by mydauphin. I would add a good switch pannel, a well done wiring and a correct engine-room ventilation.

[MarijoV]

great! thanks a lot for the advice... both you and daquiri have the same thoughts, although you are a bit more hostile towards poly :-).

Good idea about running everything in roof... but how do you insulate the roof then? If you stick everything there in the foam, than I might as well do it in the middle of the hull...

[mydauphin]

Good idea about running everything in roof... but how do you insulate the roof then? If you stick everything there in the foam, than I might as well do it in the middle of the hull...

You put conduits, or raceways in roof. Only small part of roof is used.
I then insulate around it with piece of non-flammable foam glue to ceiling. Remember ceiling should have structure and wiring and foam is within it.
This is time consuming but only way to go. I tried spray foam on ceiling it was a disaster.

Other point, living in South florida, we don't insulate for moisture control, cold waters, etc... We insulate for noise and radiant heat from sun. But it is very similar.

On conduits and raceways, yes it cost more money. But it will save countless hours later when you find out you need to run just one more wire. Oh, and we run a lot more wires than we need for future use.

[MarijoV]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't think about it without conduits and raceways... I built a house, and I know how easy it makes changing things with that... wonder why some people still don't use it on boats...

Looks like I won't be able to escape from foam... OK, let me hear it... what foam, PU, PE,...? How are the costs? All I get here are small DIY repair tins of foam...

Is it OK to use PU sheets? I guess I really like "sheety" stuff because teh thickness is easy to be determined as opposed to something which is sprayed on and then gets inflated some more...

[daiquiri]

I've used self-adhesive Armaflex sheets for hull and ceiling insulation of a steel boat. The workflow was really fast and the final result was very neat. So it's thumbs up from me. :)

[arctichusky]

There are better substitutes , I believe, for foam insulation. In vessels where Coast Guard regulations prohibit the use of spray foam, the use of mineral wool bats is common. The product can be purchased in dense compressed panels with a foil covering. One product available in Canada is manufactured by Roxul, the same company that makes the housing industries mineral wool. It does not absorb water, is fire proof totally, and is easy to cut. Check out www.crossroadsci.com. In the U.S. I think it is known as Navy board.
cheers, Frank

[apex1]

There are better substitutes ,
cheers, Frank

There are no better substitutes!
Armaflex is the material of choice! EVERYTHING else is just wasteing money, because you will remove it sooner or later.
Never think about mineral wool, polystyrene foam etc. Thats nice for a house not for boats.
Just my 2 cent, after 33 jears of boatbuilding.

Regards
Richard

[MarijoV]

Thanks for the inputs guys! I know of Armaflex, but I think it costs much more then foam, not to mention the housebuilding materials... I might as well use foam then...

I am afraid to use anything with fibers... it MAY NOT get soaked, but if it does, it's down with everything...

[Northman]

Richard,
how do you do insulate with Armaflex sheets around conduits for wiring? I suppose one does have to use two layers of Armaflex anyway to avoid cold spots - can one lay the conduit in a gap between two sheets in the outermost layer covered by the inner layer? With two layers of, say, 25 mm each, does then the conduit have to be foamed in to fill the gap?
For a steel hull, would you use Armaflex with a selv-adhesive side or with those needles and clips? Thanks!
Walter

There are no better substitutes!
Armaflex is the material of choice! EVERYTHING else is just waisting money, because you will remove it sooner or later.
Never think about mineral wool, polystyrene foam etc. Thats nice for a house not for boats.
Just my 2 cent, after 33 jears of boatbuilding.

Regards
Richard

[daiquiri]

With two layers of, say, 25 mm each, does then the conduit have to be foamed in to fill the gap?

Before Richard replies (and eventualy negates what I'm going to say...) relative to the practical installation, let me remember you that air is the best thermal insulator. Well, actually vacuum would be better, but it's out of competition here, for obvious reasons... ;)
So Armaflex+air+Armaflex is better than Armaflex+foam+Armaflex.
But you can also avoid the inner sheet of Armaflex. The lay-up Armaflex+air+plywood sheet (or interior lining or whatever you use to plate the boat inside) will suffice.

Example:
A hull wall section made of:
- 6 mm steel
- 25 mm Armaflex 0.041 W/(m K)
- 25 mm air
- 6 mm plywood
Gives a total conductance of 0.56 W/(sq.meter °C)

the same hull, but with this lay-up:
- 6 mm steel
- 50 mm Armaflex 0.041 W/(m K)
- 6 mm plywood
would give a conductance of 0.69 W/(sq.meter °C). That's 23% more!

Finaly, this layup:
- 6 mm steel
- 25 mm Armaflex
- 25 mm foam 0.035 W/(m K)
- 6 mm plywood
would give a conductance of 0.65 W/(sq.meter °C). That's 16% more than a solution with a layer of air.

[Northman]

Hardly! If it would be so easy, why bother with any kind of insulation in the first place? You could just keep a layer of undisturbed air between the hull and a layer of inner lining and be in the clear. But unfortunately you would get condensation on the inside of the hull. That's why people like me still figure what would be the best way to insulate ...
Or am I wrong?
Walter

Before Richard replies (and eventualy negates what I'm going to say...), remember that air is the best thermal insulator. Well, actually vacuum would be better, but it's out of competition here, for obvious reasons... ;)
So Armaflex+air+Armaflex is better than Armaflex+foam+Armaflex.
But you can also avoid the inner sheet of Armaflex. The lay-up Armaflex+air+plywood sheet (or interior lining or whatever you use to plate the boat inside) will suffice.

[MarijoV]

me again on polystirene... as it's CHEAP, are there ways to make it fire-proof or at least make it less sensitive to fire?

[daiquiri]

Northman, basically you've made the question and you gave yourself the answer. :)

The problem is that you need the insulation in order to prevent two phenomena: the water condensation and the thermal dissipation.
If you make a gap filled with air only, you have created the best practical thermal insulation. But remains the problem of water vapor condensating at the cold hull.
So you need to introduce another layer to your insulation. You have to sheet the cold wall with a material which will avoid the air (and the water vapor contained within) getting in contact with it. That's what Armaflex will do. It's closed-cell structure doesn't conduct the water vapor and it also act as a thermal barrier (though less efficient than air).

If you decide to fill it all with Armaflex or with a foam, you still have an effective insulation, but the overall thickness required is bigger - therefore it will cost you more and will steal the valuable space from your boat's interior.

So, to sum-up the story:
If you want the thinnest possible (but effective) insulation, the best thing is to let the Armaflex (or another closed-cell foam) insulate against humidity - and partially against heat dispersion. And then let the air gap prevent the biggest part of heat dispersion. An insulating air gap lets you save internal space, weight and money. Which is not a bad thing.

Hardly! If it would be so easy, why bother with any kind of insulation in the first place? You could just keep a layer of undisturbed air between the hull and a layer of inner lining and be in the clear. But unfortunately you would get condensation on the inside of the hull. That's why people like me still figure what would be the best way to insulate ...
Or am I wrong?
Walter

[apex1]

me again on polystirene... as it's CHEAP, are there ways to make it fire-proof or at least make it less sensitive to fire?

NO
just forget about it! Forget even the name of it. It has nothing in common with the marine environment. And on top of all possible scenarios my predecessors described so correct, it is a very weak and brittle material and unable to stand vibration. It just falls into pieces after a while if installed between two skins.

Armaflex must not be installed in two layers, it is very easy to get a perfect result with just one. No cold spots possible if done correctly. Although there are some reasons to install two layers. The engineroom for example is done best with one layer of Armaflex AF against condensate, covered by Armaflex HT for heat protection. Sometimes it is neccessary to install a third layer between those two for better sound insulation, thats Armasound RD.
AF is allways the first (outside) layer on hull plates! And if you go below waterline with it, you´ll see the first dry ship in your life!
A heat resistant material for cable and fuel conduits is Armaflex Protect R-90.
We use all of the above mentioned even in our wood epoxy yachts!`Cos condensate is an issue on painted epoxy surfaces as well! And mold is a serious enemy.
You can have all these foams in a tubular shape to insulate tubes and piping, they fit perfect on standard sized piping (both metric and archaic).
The application of these sheets are done best with the special goo Armaflex delivers, but on real flat surfaces you can use the self adhesive stuff as well.
Do not forget to insulate the frames with a thin (10mm) layer of Armaflex AF before you install the sheets on the hull. Usually 25mm is sufficient against condensate everything above may add to your comfort.
Never mix two sorts of foam, they destroy each other sooner or later chemically.
Yes Arma is not a bargain at the first glimpse, but removing crap and installing it then anyway is by far the more expensive way.
Till the early 90´s we used spray on PU foam as most of the world did, it was nice to see them boats burning some years later, when the usual repair welding was done (and it kept the yards busy). Sheets of PU get loose from the hull after a while, forming a perfect ambient for mold and rust. (so did the spray on foam too in some spots) Mineral wool does this for free right from the very first day.
If you can afford a yacht, you can afford armaflex, if not, size down!
No, I do´nt get a commission, I still have to beg for a living.

daiquiri
Before Richard replies (and eventualy negates what I'm going to say...)
Impressive enough, I did´nt.;)

Regards
Richard

[MarijoV]

Richard, thanks for the persuasive post :-). How do you deal (on metal hull) the instalation of Armaflex and wooden battens used for ceiling and interior elements mounting? Do you Armaflex everything and then screw the bolt on say frames through it, or do you bolt wooden elements on the bare (painted of course) hull first, and then work your Armeflex around/over it?

[apex1]

Richard, thanks for the persuasive post :-). How do you deal (on metal hull) the instalation of Armaflex and wooden battens used for ceiling and interior elements mounting? Do you Armaflex everything and then screw the bolt on say frames through it, or do you bolt wooden elements on the bare (painted of course) hull first, and then work your Armeflex around/over it?

The latter, never bolt structural elements through a foam, the bolt gets loose within some days. On interior surface the wooden batten does´nt need further insulation. If connected to the steel hull and (naturally) painted, you should apply a 10mm layer on it too.
AND I edited the post..........I allways do.
R.
R.

[daiquiri]

No, I do´nt get a commission, I still have to beg for a living.

:D :D :D
I believe the first part, the second one is a plain lie. ;)

[apex1]

:D :D :D
I believe the first part, the second one is a plain lie. ;)

I do´nt know what believe means, I´m an atheist. But begging is possible at different altitudes........................:rolleyes:

[Landlubber]

Really want to use Polystyrene foam...did you know that if you mix it with petrol you have napalm.........forget it (good though for Jewish Stocktakes)

[grzesiek1969]

Hallo!
I have made isolation in my aluminium Forna 37 with very hard roof styro foam (blue color - 50 mm) 9 years ago.. Everything is great: price, weight, easy to work and isolation.
Ok, I never check it in fire and I don`t have opinion ;))
Regards
First time here
Gregory from Poland

[MarijoV]

Landlubber, I didn't know that it was napalm :-). Good point... I should not drop my boat from any height more than 300 ft :-)!

By Jewish Stocktakes you mean of arson-insurance scams?

Gregory, thanks for the input, yours might be among the most important ones... Did you ever had any accidents or major soaking of any part of the isolation?

Do you know what was the specific weight of the styrofoam? Maybe it was the same thickness as for floors...

[apex1]

Landlubber, I didn't know that it was napalm :-). Good point... I should not drop my boat from any height more than 300 ft :-)!
By Jewish Stocktakes you mean of arson-insurance scams?
Gregory, thanks for the input, yours might be among the most important ones... Did you ever had any accidents or major soaking of any part of the isolation?
Do you know what was the specific weight of the styrofoam? Maybe it was the same thickness as for floors...

Did you read the posts replying to your question? Was´nt that clear enough? Hands off!
If the stuff is named with anything like "styro", it is crap! It is NOT water repellant! It does NOT stay in contact with the hull surface! It burns like hell and you will NOT extinguish the flames with the usual equipment once the fire had a chance to get hot enough (and it has between the panelling and the hull).
Our Polish friend will notice on top of that how nice his Alu junk burns down to the waterline in a brilliant silvery firework.

It may sound a bit harsh, but it is´nt meant like that.....................it is meant to be rude!
Why do you ask for professional advice if you do´nt like professional solutions?
You may as well have asked the national homeworker forum to get a reply that fits your preconception.
and grzesiek1969
that was a nice introduction, but steel hulls are not made from Aluminium and opinions are not asked if one is looking for advice! That you feel comfortable with that stuff does´nt mean anything.

Was that clear enough now?

And YES i am pis..ed, `cos sometimes we are wasteing our time drilling big holes, where just exploring the nose by finger was the solution.

Go for Gregory´s crap it is cheap and fits your needs.

Regards
Richard

[MarijoV]

wow, you are really pissed Richard!

I think it's great to have a dozen of different opinions... only then, if I see that say 10 out of 12 are thinking the same, I can get an idea what's worth and what's not... Using styro might really be very dangerous and an idea I am dropping, but I am glad Gregory actually did it and lived the whole 9 years after that to tell...

[mydauphin]

All those that want to try styrofoam- do this. Get a block, light a match, throw match on block. Stand back. Then try same with regular real insulation notice the difference.

[apex1]

wow, you are really pissed Richard!

I think it's great to have a dozen of different opinions... only then, if I see that say 10 out of 12 are thinking the same, I can get an idea what's worth and what's not... Using styro might really be very dangerous and an idea I am dropping, but I am glad Gregory actually did it and lived the whole 9 years after that to tell...

Yes I am.
First one should divide advice and opinions. Second one should look after the value of a statement. If ten amateurs tell you they stay alive and feel fine with crap and three pro´s tell you to leave it, make a clever decision.

[MarijoV]

You are absolutely right, but you have to have one thing on your mind. I am an AMATEUR (even less...) and new to this site, so I do not know at all who YOU are and can not tell from your nick the level of your expertise. If you get offended by someone not immidiately saying Jawohl!, that's limiting the chances someone might actually take your advice, but of course that's not your problem, since you are volunteering your advice anyway...

If say Dudley Dix had made a post saying "Err, Marijo, I understand were you are aiming in terms of cost-containment, but look, its going to make a saving of only 30% compared to PU foam, and I know of 2 yacht that burned down with that crap in mid 80s..." I would cut the discussion. Here Gregory was saying that it works for him for 9 years, and a bunch of guys were just screaming "crap, crap, crap...!"

To sum it all up, thanks to you apex1 and a lot of others who think similar to you, I got convinced that styro is not a very good idea, because of increased risk of fire-fueling in the case of fire. I will not use it.

[peter radclyffe]

Hi everybody, does anybody have some opinion or better yet own experience of steel hull isolation using any alternatives to PU foam spraying or PU sheets? Has anyone ever used some of the common house-building materials (styrofoam sheets, glass wool, etc.) and got away with it?

many thanks, Marijo

can you get cork sheets, & flame retardant paint, how about astroturf

[Guest62110524]

Korex, is what I use, same stuff they make lifejackets of, even feels warm nice to work with
see here
http://www.forman.co.nz/products_list.php?catid=31

understand richard, I stopped contributing mainly because amateurs ask over and over, til they get the answer they want to hear---- opened this thread in case there was a better product For artic fishing ships i have seen 8 inches of some grey home type insulation, I have no idea what it was but would be fireretardant for sure(insurance and cert bureau rules)
there are no shortcuts in boatbuilding, sure there are different approaches and(right) ways, but no shortcuts
cheers

[apex1]

can you get cork sheets, & flame retardant paint, how about astroturf

Thanks for the hint Peter.
It may sound crazy but cork is a very good choice, but unfortunately very expensive if you compare the same technical properties with armaflex. If you add heat resistant paint (and you should), it is out of comparison. Although it does´nt burn as easy as one would think. But if the fire retardant paint gets scratched and cork sucks moisture it is a good fertile soil for mold and mildew. Leave it.
The same for astroturf, it has not a single property needed in this application, and is expensive. Egg carton is cheap, but has one or the other disadvantage too.
Stu, the vinyl foam is not bad, but not that much different in price too, and Arma is much better.
Regards
Richard

[peter radclyffe]

Thanks for the hint Peter.
It may sound crazy but cork is a very good choice, but unfortunately very expensive if you compare the same technical properties with armaflex. If you add heat resistant paint (and you should), it is out of comparison. Although it does´nt burn as easy as one would think. But if the fire retardant paint gets scratched and cork sucks moisture it is a good fertile soil for mold and mildew. Leave it.
The same for astroturf, it has not a single property needed in this application, and is expensive. Egg carton is cheap, but has one or the other disadvantage too.
Stu, the vinyl foam is not bad, but not that much different in price too, and Arma is much better.
Regards
Richard
yes, arma sounds much better, the cost & rot of cork are always a problem, its better if its a synthetic, which by design are usually flame retardant

[peter radclyffe]

You are absolutely right, but you have to have one thing on your mind. I am an AMATEUR (even less...) and new to this site, so I do not know at all who YOU are and can not tell from your nick the level of your expertise. If you get offended by someone not immidiately saying Jawohl!, that's limiting the chances someone might actually take your advice, but of course that's not your problem, since you are volunteering your advice anyway...

If say Dudley Dix had made a post saying "Err, Marijo, I understand were you are aiming in terms of cost-containment, but look, its going to make a saving of only 30% compared to PU foam, and I know of 2 yacht that burned down with that crap in mid 80s..." I would cut the discussion. Here Gregory was saying that it works for him for 9 years, and a bunch of guys were just screaming "crap, crap, crap...!"

To sum it all up, thanks to you apex1 and a lot of others who think similar to you, I got convinced that styro is not a very good idea, because of increased risk of fire-fueling in the case of fire. I will not use it.

dont demean yourself, the father of yacht design, dixon kemp, was a self proclaimed amateur

[MarijoV]

Peter - thanks a lot :-)

Cheers, Marijo

[TeddyDiver]

I've so far being familiar with Armaflex only in housebuilding projects, as tube isolation, and wondering what are the suitable Armaflex products for hull insulation. AP looks about right but local dealer doesn't have that, instead they have NH :confused:

[marshmat]

Now, now, boys, don't be so hard on poor old polystyrene foam.
Yes, it burns furiously and with a toxic, black smoke. Yes, it deteriorates and makes a mess. Yes, it breaks off from whatever you glue it to. Yes, most glues, solvents and chemicals will eat it. No, it really does not belong on board a boat.

But.... it makes wonderful billets to hold up a floating dock :)

[apex1]

I've so far being familiar with Armaflex only in housebuilding projects, as tube isolation, and wondering what are the suitable Armaflex products for hull insulation. AP looks about right but local dealer doesn't have that, instead they have NH :confused:

Not AP Teddy, AF is the stuff to prevent condense water, it is the "basic" metal hull insulation material.
NH is the better quality used as a fire retardant insulation. If its the only type of Armaflex available at your place, you can install it instead of AF but its a bit more costly.

Matt, please forgive, I´ve forgotten that purpose of styrofoam! It is perfect for a floating jetty (as long as you prevent it from UV rays).
I would like to go deeper into it, but have to deliver a yacht and so, I´m on a shake down and delivery run for some 14 days (if all goes right). My first 36 meter format, so the "Patron" is doing the job himself.

Regards
Richard

[TeddyDiver]

Thanks
Armacell link for AF properties seems to be broken.. And forgot to mention, I'm insulating wood/epoxy hull, so corrosion isn not an issue..

Styrofoam.. we made some styro-dummie-owls for crow hunting when we were kids.. a lot of fun

[peter radclyffe]

Thanks
Armacell link for AF properties seems to be broken.. And forgot to mention, I'm insulating wood/epoxy hull, so corrosion isn not an issue..

Styrofoam.. we made some styro-dummie-owls for crow hunting when we were kids.. a lot of fun
if weight is not a problem why not use wood, no seriously

[TeddyDiver]

if weight is not a problem why not use wood, no seriously

:D Are you talking about hull insulation or decoy owls?

[peter radclyffe]

how many guesses you want

[apex1]

Thanks
Armacell link for AF properties seems to be broken.. And forgot to mention, I'm insulating wood/epoxy hull, so corrosion isn not an issue..

Styrofoam.. we made some styro-dummie-owls for crow hunting when we were kids.. a lot of fun

Here we are Teddy:

http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/INT_Frame?OpenDocument&Link=/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/ID/0441485EFA77484580256FDC00624346?OpenDocument

and, btw. as mentioned before, I produce in wood / Ep only and use Armaflex. Condensate and the resulting mold are the issue, not corrosion.

Regards
Richard

[TeddyDiver]

how many guesses you want

Two? :p

[Brent Swain]

I've tried most of them over the last 33 years of living aboard steel boats, mostly in BC waters. No matter how I tried to get a good vapour barrier , both styrofoam and fibreglas wool got soaking wet behind it and little bubbles started to appear in the paint. Fibreglas wool got sopping wet by the end of winter.
Friends tried sheet styrofoam and found it more expensive and far more labour intensive than if they had simply had the whole thing sprayfoamd, and it was nowhere near as good a result.
The use of the vaccum filled ceramic insulating beads added to paint, drasticaly reduces condensation, but doesn't eliminate it. Cork is organic and goes a beautiful moldy green by the end of winter, altho grinding it up and mixing it with paint may work to some extent. So far I have found no reasonable alternative to urethane sprayfoam, the best money one can spend on a steel boat. I have lived in a steel boat year round in mostly cold climes for 33 years and have no complaints about sprayfoam. My boat is warm and dusty dry in all conditions.
Electrical conduits should be installed before spray foaming . This will solve the running of electrical wires. For welding I scrape out the foam for three inches around the weld , then put wet rags over the entire area, weld, quench, epoxy, then spray the foam back in with spray cans. No problem.
Make sure you have several coats of epoxy tar on the steel, before sprayfoaming. Spray foam does little to protect the steel. Cheap latex paint over the foam drastically improves fire restance. You can get it free at recycling centres. Make sure you have at least a half inch of foam over every sq inch of steel, or it will drip condensation like a leaky faucet.
Brent

[oldace]

I just wondering does anybody used Subertres paint for metal boat?

[Brent Swain]

Wood against steel is like putting wet blotting paper against it. I have done a lot of work this year repairing wood damage on steel boats , where it has resulted in steel under wood rusting right thru, where epoxied and spray foamed steel right next to it is in perfect condition, after decades.

[DianneB]

A long time ago I picked up a 26' steel inboard that was pretty rusty inside. I cleaned it back to shiny steel (a LOT of work!) and used automotive undercoating over the entire inside of the hull. It cut the condensation drastically and reduced the noise level quite a bit. Unfortunately I sold the boat and moved away so I can't comment on the long-term durability.

I now have a 21' Sylvan that I am planning to re-do next winter and I see that it has 'spray foam' on the hull. I haven't decided whether to re-do the foam or what to use if I do but for a 1987 boat, the foam is still in good shape.

[Brent Swain]

Drag your fingernails over the foam and listen for hollow spots. If you hear hollow spots, cut the foam out there, and check the condition of the steel under it, or whether it was epoxied..

[majay]

I have recently purchased a CN 35, which is almost a carbon copy of an Alberg 37, but in corten steel. The hull has been insulated with Great Stuff Expanding Foam and painted over with fire retardant paint. I have read all posts here trying to figure out whether or not to rip it all out and put something else in...can't find Armaflex dealer in Canada...and it seems like there is a lot of difference in opinion about what to use. Anyone use a similar product for a length of time and have positive/negative experiences?? I am not too worried about fire, more worried about corroding my hull to bits.

[Brent Swain]

Great stuff is far more water absorbent and more open cell than spray foam.It can soak up water like a sponge

[M&M Ovenden]

Hi Majay,

Insul-Coustic on Fenton road in Ottawa sells Armaflex products. There is also a distributor in Montreal.

Cheers,
Mark

[apex1]

Great stuff is far more water absorbent and more open cell than spray foam.It can soak up water like a sponge

To which product does this refer Brent?

[majay]

Thanks for the info, Mark. It's going to be one hell of a job to get it out of there... it's on the deckhead, ceilings...all over the place.

[Brent Swain]

To which product does this refer Brent?
All foams that come in spray cans.

[Autodafe]

Apologies in advance for slight thread hijack.

Is there a good insulation alternative that is lighter than Armaflex for those of us who have to be weight conscious?

While I'm not advocating polystyrene as boat insulation, Armaflex will be slightly thicker and more than twice as heavy for the same insulation value, which is a bit off-putting for an expensive product.

Of course this will be slightly offset by the fact that elastomeric foams can be used without an inner lining in some areas, while PS or PU foams cannot.

Suggestions?

[Brent Swain]

Foams that can't be sprayed in get heavy condensation behind them, regardless of any attempts to get a vapour barrier , leading to serious corrosion.
A friend said he was quoted $2500 to get his 36 footer spray foamed , but found he could buy a kit and do it himself for $1500. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
The foam comes in a couple of pressure cans, which look like propane bottles.

[apex1]

Foams that can't be sprayed in get heavy condensation behind them, regardless of any attempts to get a vapour barrier , leading to serious corrosion.


Sorry Brent for contradicting.

Armaflex does NOT allow condensation between foam and hull! It was designed and produced to avoid exactly that. And it has proven to be the best stuff available for this purpose, though it is by far the most expensive too.

Regards
Richard

[Brent Swain]

How do you guarantee airtightness around the edges? I was never able to achieve it, nor have others I know, who tried everything.

[apex1]

It does´nt need to be airtight. A few square centimeter of open surface in the entire hull do´nt build up condensate to worry about.

More important is to seal the frames (usually with a thinner covering) before one applies the hull insulation. You otherwise have the condensate on the full length of the frames, collecting in the bilge.

Regards
Richard

[Brent Swain]

I have found that an uninsultated piece of steel the size of your little fingernail wil drip like a faucet if it is not covered.
That is extremely hard to accomplish without spray foaming.

[apex1]

Yesterday it had to be airtight..............

now a cm² drips like a faucet.........

may I repeat:
A few square centimeter of open surface in the entire hull do´nt build up condensate to worry about.

A adult person of about 75kg or 150 pounds, sweats out more then one liter of water at night. That humidity gets assimilated in the air and wood and decoration textiles in your stateroom, is then transported outside with every sufficient ventilation.

Do you really assume the 20ccm of water which can drip from a 10 cm² open surface over one day cannot?

[alloy sailor]

I am considering an insulating paint; the kit comes with a sprayer. One coat to control condensation and then add sheet insulation as needed for more radiant or sound insulation. Has any one done this. The boat is aluminum.

[Brent Swain]

Yesterday it had to be airtight..............

now a cm² drips like a faucet.........

may I repeat:
A few square centimeter of open surface in the entire hull do´nt build up condensate to worry about.

A adult person of about 75kg or 150 pounds, sweats out more then one liter of water at night. That humidity gets assimilated in the air and wood and decoration textiles in your stateroom, is then transported outside with every sufficient ventilation.

Do you really assume the 20ccm of water which can drip from a 10 cm² open surface over one day cannot?

Not to worry about , unles the drip is directly over your bunk, or your books , or your clothes, etc etc.
As it only takes a 2 degree difference in temperature to get condensation , it woud take enough ventilation to make the inside air the same temperature as outside to avoid condensation.
I have several friends living aboard in BC who thought they could solve the condensation problem with lots of ventilation. It rained harder inside their boats than outside, and during cold snaps the boat was coated inside with a layer of solid ice, except over the heater, where it rained constantly.
I made the same naive asumption in my early 20's . No one could tell me otherwise. Boy, what a miserable winter that was.
Since I spayfoamed ,I have lived aboard comfortably in many BC winters for 34 years

[Brent Swain]

I am considering an insulating paint; the kit comes with a sprayer. One coat to control condensation and then add sheet insulation as needed for more radiant or sound insulation. Has any one done this. The boat is aluminum.

The stainless pipes on my cowl vents used to drip condensation ,so I used the insulating paint on them . It stopped the drip in normal conditions , but not while cooking. It has nowhere near the insulating abilities advertised, but it helps a bit.
Will it work enough to let you use sheet foam over it ?It would be nice if it did, but your guess is as good as mine. I'd say 50/ 50 chance of it working.

[SamSam]

As it only takes a 2 degree difference in temperature to get condensation , it woud take enough ventilation to make the inside air the same temperature as outside to avoid condensation.

Even that won't avoid condensation. The water is often colder than the air, which turns any uninsulated, or insulated but not airtight, steel below the waterline into a fairly efficient water condenser, kind of like a giant dehumidifier.

[Brent Swain]

You could put a computer fan sucking the air out of the bilge , let air in at the other end ,and thus make the bilge into a built in , low power ,dehumidifier. As long as bilge water was increasing rather than decreasing, you'd know you were sucking water out of the air ,rather than adding it.

[bcervelo]

Not sure if this product has been mensioned, I use to build canal boats here in the UK and we used a product from 3M called Thinsulate its the same stuff you get in gloves and other thermal clothing.
It comes in a roll your cut it to size and stick to the hull with a water based glue from 3M.

[apex1]

Just a update:

I received this mail today:

Apex1,

A while ago I asked a question about the armaflex insulation you
recommended in an old post. It was about my own steel sailboat;
however, my wife and I manage the operation of two tall ships used
for sail training. I wanted to say that we are currently insulating
both our ships with armaflex and had no problem whatsoever getting it
approved for use by Transport Canada. It seems like great stuff.
Thanks for the assistance.

Jason


will keep the boardname confidential, but he is around here.

Regards
Richard

[majay]

I just wanted to post a message about the Armaflex insulation recommended by Richard (Apex1) on this post.

I had asked earlier about it for my own steel yawl, but my day job is the management of two brigantines, one which is undergoing an extensive refit to become registered as a passenger vessel, and one that requires the installation of insulation in her steel engine room.

Here is a little case study of a brigantine and my own yawl that decided to go with spray foam years ago, and what our experience has been with the Armaflex insulation product so far.

First; the price.

It was mentioned in this forum that the cost of Armaflex was exceptionally expensive, so I braced myself for the quote. Truth is, seeing that the words "marine grade" are synonymous with "expensive", we were ready to shell out a lot of cash for the stuff...however, we were surprised to learn that an entire roll of .5" Armaflex measuring 70ft x 4ft came to $507 (CDN).

Second; the quality.

Even if you think that $500 is expensive for 70'x4' consider this; Armaflex is treated with Microban, and is resistant to mold and mildew. It's also fire-rated under NFPA standards (and to Transport Canada's marine standard- B-15) We were quoted for the type with the self-adhesive, which makes it very very easy to apply, but if you aren't confident in that, they also have an epoxy substance that they can supply. As for appearance, it's black in colour and seems kind of like a rubbery/closed-cell foam mattress you'd use for camping. It's easy to cut- and isn't messy like spray or fibre.

Third; Approved by Transport Canada

Everything we install in our ships must be first approved by Transport Canada- and some things- like the brand new wiring we installed last year- they get pretty serious about (as an aside, don't use Teck cable in your boat, the stuff with the aluminum conduit, it corrodes like mad- TC made us replace it all this year) I digress- anyway, Armaflex was not already on their list of approved products, so we submitted it for careful scrutiny with the spec sheets and it was approved within the week.

Fourth; take it from me, the guy who's scraping out foam insulation from a can on a 110ft brigantine and his own boat. On the brigantine, the spray foam between the hull and the ceiling (which was pine tongue and groove) was soaked with water...it was also mouldy...and the tongue and groove was rotten. On my own boat I found the same thing...wet foam and mould growing (and for some reason the epoxy paint under the foam in contact with the hull is also coming off in sheets...ugh).

For those of you who are looking for a case study, look no further. Spray foam (poly) when in contact with moisture, soaks up water and breeds moulds like crazy...you can try it out for yourself, but in terms of labour alone, it is a really really expensive and time consuming clean-up operation.

Hope that helps....and if you know any kids in Ottawa (or area) that want to sail a tall ship this summer, we are looking for trainees! www.tallshipsadventure.org

[Brent Swain]

I've been living aboard full time in my spray foamed steel boat in BC since 1984 and have had no problem with mold.

[capt littlelegs]

I just wanted to post a message about the Armaflex insulation recommended by Richard (Apex1) on this post.

I had asked earlier about it for my own steel yawl, but my day job is the management of two brigantines, one which is undergoing an extensive refit to become registered as a passenger vessel, and one that requires the installation of insulation in her steel engine room.

Here is a little case study of a brigantine and my own yawl that decided to go with spray foam years ago, and what our experience has been with the Armaflex insulation product so far.

First; the price.

It was mentioned in this forum that the cost of Armaflex was exceptionally expensive, so I braced myself for the quote. Truth is, seeing that the words "marine grade" are synonymous with "expensive", we were ready to shell out a lot of cash for the stuff...however, we were surprised to learn that an entire roll of .5" Armaflex measuring 70ft x 4ft came to $507 (CDN).

Second; the quality.

Even if you think that $500 is expensive for 70'x4' consider this; Armaflex is treated with Microban, and is resistant to mold and mildew. It's also fire-rated under NFPA standards (and to Transport Canada's marine standard- B-15) We were quoted for the type with the self-adhesive, which makes it very very easy to apply, but if you aren't confident in that, they also have an epoxy substance that they can supply. As for appearance, it's black in colour and seems kind of like a rubbery/closed-cell foam mattress you'd use for camping. It's easy to cut- and isn't messy like spray or fibre.

Third; Approved by Transport Canada

Everything we install in our ships must be first approved by Transport Canada- and some things- like the brand new wiring we installed last year- they get pretty serious about (as an aside, don't use Teck cable in your boat, the stuff with the aluminum conduit, it corrodes like mad- TC made us replace it all this year) I digress- anyway, Armaflex was not already on their list of approved products, so we submitted it for careful scrutiny with the spec sheets and it was approved within the week.

Fourth; take it from me, the guy who's scraping out foam insulation from a can on a 110ft brigantine and his own boat. On the brigantine, the spray foam between the hull and the ceiling (which was pine tongue and groove) was soaked with water...it was also mouldy...and the tongue and groove was rotten. On my own boat I found the same thing...wet foam and mould growing (and for some reason the epoxy paint under the foam in contact with the hull is also coming off in sheets...ugh).

For those of you who are looking for a case study, look no further. Spray foam (poly) when in contact with moisture, soaks up water and breeds moulds like crazy...you can try it out for yourself, but in terms of labour alone, it is a really really expensive and time consuming clean-up operation.

Hope that helps....and if you know any kids in Ottawa (or area) that want to sail a tall ship this summer, we are looking for trainees! www.tallshipsadventure.org

You've only got .5 inch insulation... no wonder it's cheap, what good is that? You need at least two inches! If you used the wrong spray foam out of a can what do you expect? If you've got water and mould why is that the foams fault, even Armaflex absorbs water, check the spec and fix the leaks? Armaflex is ok for engine rooms but not all over for proper heat insulation, did you even ask about approval for professionaly sprayed foam? Armaflex still has to be expensively installed properly without condensation inducing gaps! Hardly a case study with your problems, I don't think you are managing this job to the best considered result available.

[M&M Ovenden]

I beleive Majay has done his homework. As it is, options are quite limited for the FairJeanne and Black Jack as Transport Canada specifically prohibits the use of Polyurethane Foams in passenger vessels. About the thickness mentioned, I don't know what you base your judgment on. Do you know the vessels, any idea on the climate or conditions the operate in and insulation expectations from operators? All cases can't be compared to each other, variables change. As far as I can see, from all info provided, the .5 armaflex falls into recommendations for vessels operated in moderate climate conditions, which, I believe is the case with the Ottawa brigs.


Transport Canada
Marine Safety
TP 11717

STANDARDS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION
AND INSPECTION
OF SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS (Vessels of 15 to 150 Gross Tonnage)
Transport Canada

point 19.1.3 (b) The use of polyurethane foam as insulation material is not permitted.

-------------

Product data and thickness recommendations:
see doc attached

certificates:
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/USA-TI_Frame?OpenDocument&Link=/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/ID/2028D88D97A4B307C1256EDD005E1B42?OpenDocument CLICK ON RIGHT HAND MENU ON CERTIFICATS

pleasure vessel application:
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/USA-TI_Frame?OpenDocument&Link=/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/ID/2028D88D97A4B307C1256EDD005E1B42?OpenDocument CLICK ON RIGHT HAND MENU ON JOB STORY -PLEASURE SAILING
-------------

I specifically asked for specification data about products you are praising

Post #130 in "A cape Horn vessel"

I would be interested in some specific name brands, spec sheets, references of so said "not out dated" spray foam insulation products. I'm not trying to be a trouble shaker but do have interest in some specific guidance towards what the industry has to offer. So far, from here, North America, I haven't found a spray foam insulation that comforted my apprehensions.


I am still waiting for solid information as anecdotal comments from a non identifiable source is not very persuasive. I am always in search of the best, and open to all suggestion and leads; but for such investment (not only the financial but also the commitment it involves) as insulating a hull I rather base my decisions on pertinent data and identifiable case studies.

Murielle

[majay]

I don't think I was clear in my earlier post. The foam I am referring to is spray foam from a can, purchased at stores like Home Depot. A popular brand is "Great Stuff Expanding Foam" used for filling gaps between windows and doors.

For those who have had their boats professionally spray foamed I can tell you that I have no experience with this, good or bad, and there was no intentions of including professionally sprayed-in foam in my earlier post.

Regarding Captain "Littlelegs" comments...

I work with a board that has a considerable amount of experience in the marine industry. We research our products and do our homework, but sometimes (in my experience) there isn't going to be a perfect solution to a particular problem. In this case there is a pretty wide debate about the "right" insulation to use and an entirely separate one about how it should best be applied. Lots of grey areas. So I found a professional that has used a product successfully for a number of years (Richard), took the name of that product and read the spec sheets. Then our office called the company. Then we discussed it with our nav arch and engineer. Then we called Transport Canada and discussed it with them. Based on the information we received, it was, and remains, the product best suited for our needs.

If you're able to substantiate your opinions on manners pertaining to insulation (and not managerial skills) I would welcome your constructive feedback.

[capt littlelegs]

Keep in mind that the only foam I am discussing here is sold at stores like the Home Depot. It's intended for household use, as gap filler around windows and doors and comes in a can. I should have been more clear in my earlier post. I know nothing about the professional application of sprayed-in foam and don't offer any opinions on that. As for our ships, we did not consider and are not interested in this type of application.

That is my point, you are only basing your experience on household can spray foam which is totally unsuitable. You have not investigated the professional close cell foam used in the marine and offshore business. If you don't consider it as an option then you've not done your job properly, I'm only telling you about it not doing your job by researching it.

[majay]

I don't think that any further comments from me in defense of your assumptions will produce anything constructive on this forum. Take the post for what it is. I had a failure with one product and success (so far) with another. Bantering about my job doesn't help anyone, especially me.

[capt littlelegs]

I beleive Majay has done his homework. As it is, options are quite limited for the FairJeanne and Black Jack as Transport Canada specifically prohibits the use of Polyurethane Foams in passenger vessels. About the thickness mentioned, I don't know what you base your judgment on. Do you know the vessels, any idea on the climate or conditions the operate in and insulation expectations from operators? All cases can't be compared to each other, variables change. As far as I can see, from all info provided, the .5 armaflex falls into recommendations for vessels operated in moderate climate conditions, which, I believe is the case with the Ottawa brigs.


Transport Canada
Marine Safety
TP 11717

STANDARDS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION
AND INSPECTION
OF SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS (Vessels of 15 to 150 Gross Tonnage)
Transport Canada

point 19.1.3 (b) The use of polyurethane foam as insulation material is not permitted.

-------------

Product data and thickness recommendations:
see doc attached

certificates:
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/USA-TI_Frame?OpenDocument&Link=/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/ID/2028D88D97A4B307C1256EDD005E1B42?OpenDocument CLICK ON RIGHT HAND MENU ON CERTIFICATS

pleasure vessel application:
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/USA-TI_Frame?OpenDocument&Link=/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/ID/2028D88D97A4B307C1256EDD005E1B42?OpenDocument CLICK ON RIGHT HAND MENU ON JOB STORY -PLEASURE SAILING
-------------

I specifically asked for specification data about products you are praising

Post #130 in "A cape Horn vessel"



I am still waiting for solid information as anecdotal comments from a non identifiable source is not very persuasive. I am always in search of the best, and open to all suggestion and leads; but for such investment (not only the financial but also the commitment it involves) as insulating a hull I rather base my decisions on pertinent data and identifiable case studies.

Murielle

We are talking mainly about private vessels here and heat insulation to prevent heat loss and heat gain plus elimination of condensation. Commercial vessels will no doubt have specific requirements for various reasons but to quote only one type as a non permitted benchmark for all vessels and foams (Armaflex is a foam!) then you are missing out. You need to find out yourself what spray foam is acceptable for your application with the same, similar or better spec as Armaflex as there is no one type. There's no point in asking me for a specific formulea! Google spray foam manufacturers and ask them!

http://www.foamandcoatingequipment.com/ see the video.

Armaflex only specifies temperatures for pipes and tanks, I'm talking about surface and overall heat loss values, the R and U-value. This can be calculated for insulation thickness from inside and outside temperatures etc. but generally the thicker the better in keeping the vessel or building cool in summer and warm with minimal heating in winter. Loose material just does not come close to giving the best overall performance for this so no, Majay has not done his homework by a long way and his experience is no testimomial for others as he claims!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-value#U-value

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_insulation_materials

http://www.isothane.com/insulation/Default.htm

http://www.isothane.com/foams/2006reprocell300.htm

http://www.isothane.com/foams/2005ld40carvida.htm

http://www.ncfi.com/news_display.cfm?id=49

http://www.businessmagnet.co.uk/company/expandingfoam-135582.htm

[capt littlelegs]

I don't think that any further comments from me in defense of your assumptions will produce anything constructive on this forum. Take the post for what it is. I had a failure with one product and success (so far) with another. Bantering about my job doesn't help anyone, especially me.

You may well be right that what you use is right for you but you cannot state that this situation and your bad experience is a case study for others with private boats and intending to use the correct closed cell spray foam, especially when it is apparent you are unaware of it's extensive use in boats!

Good luck with your job but I think you should have consulted experts in the field rather than a forum for your information because if it comes to it you can always say it was the best professional information at the time, a forum with such diverse opinions, misinformation and prejudice is not!

[majay]

You may well be right that what you use is right for you but you cannot state that this situation and your bad experience is a case study for others with private boats and intending to use the correct closed cell spray foam, especially when it is apparent you are unaware of it's extensive use in boats!

Good luck with your job but I think you should have consulted experts in the field rather than a forum for your information because if it comes to it you can always say it was the best professional information at the time, a forum with such diverse opinions, misinformation and prejudice is not!

OK...I think you misunderstood my comments. I did not mean to dissuade people from going the route of professionally applied spray foam used on many commerical and private vessels. I was trying to explain that I did not have success with canned foam such as Great Stuff, or other like gap fillers. I don't think you would recommend someone going to Home Depot, putting a mask on and spraying the inside of their hull with window and door gap filler from a can. That's all I meant.

Secondly, yes, it is absolutely critical that experts in the field are consulted before undertaking such projects. It's common sense. We didn't want a professionally applied "spray" foam for a number of reasons (not because we think it's terrible); but that doesn't mean we didn't research other alternatives...from marine, to industrial to residential insulations...in our case it seems as though Armaflex is best when compared to other insulations for our unique purposes. This forum was a great place to go to find other ideas...and we found one.

[capt littlelegs]

OK...I think you misunderstood my comments. I did not mean to dissuade people from going the route of professionally applied spray foam used on many commerical and private vessels. I was trying to explain that I did not have success with canned foam such as Great Stuff, or other like gap fillers. I don't think you would recommend someone going to Home Depot, putting a mask on and spraying the inside of their hull with window and door gap filler from a can. That's all I meant.

Secondly, yes, it is absolutely critical that experts in the field are consulted before undertaking such projects. It's common sense. We didn't want a professionally applied "spray" foam for a number of reasons (not because we think it's terrible); but that doesn't mean we didn't research other alternatives...from marine, to industrial to residential insulations...in our case it seems as though Armaflex is best when compared to other insulations for our unique purposes. This forum was a great place to go to find other ideas...and we found one.

Ok, good luck with the sailing.

[apex1]

We are talking mainly about private vessels here and heat insulation to prevent heat loss and heat gain plus elimination of condensation. .....

NO
we did mainly discuss condensation issues



... You need to find out yourself what spray foam is acceptable for your application with the same, similar or better spec as Armaflex .....

You do´nt get it? There is NO PU spray foam acceptable! In many countries you do´nt get a PU foam application licensed anymore, for very good reasons.

....Armaflex only specifies temperatures for pipes and tanks,....

Nonsense, YOU should do your homework! Or stay out of discussions you have no clue about, as other members told you already several times.

Why did the best megayacht builders leave the spray foam and went to Armaflex, whats your guess? All idiots?

Armaflex is ok for engine rooms but not all over for proper heat insulation, ...........

What a utter nonsense..............
...or to say it positive: thank you to show us your real expertise!:p

Regards
Richard

[capt littlelegs]

Nonsense, YOU should do your homework! Or stay out of discussions you have no clue about, as other members told you already several times.

Why did the best megayacht builders leave the spray foam and went to Armaflex, whats your guess? All idiots?



What a utter nonsense..............
...or to say it positive: thank you to show us your real expertise!:p

Regards
Richard

I don't give false information like you and your mates!

Don't know...because all megayachts are cheap and poorly insulated or all builders are idiots...? Why ask me, I thought you knew everything...

Armaflex is still a foam for insulating pipes and tanks, not whole boats. I think we proved it was you who had no idea... oh I forgot, you think you are the best at everything... :D

[Brent Swain]

Spray can foam is far more open cell, and absorbs water far more easily than commercially applied spray foam. None the less, all foam should be kept out of the bilges so any moisture can drain out of it. They used to foam sein boats here right down to the centreline, with no provision for drainage, The water in the bilges would wick up and rust out the plate behind it. Had they left the bottom open for drainage, they wouldn't have had that problem.
Transport Canada doesn't give a rat's ass what maintenance problems their recommendations give you, or how much their demands cost you..
Commercial passengers vessels don't have shortage of heat for the cabin, and heat retention is not a priority for them. Full time live aboard boats have different priorities. Transport Canada won't pay your heating bills, nor the cost of following their recommendations.

[majay]

Brent,

Quite true...we have a huge AC unit and heat as well. I was wondering if you knew anything about CORTEN steel. I read that the surface rust on that type of steel can act as a protective barrier for the steel beneath it. Do you know if it has to be coated the same way as mild steel? The epoxy coating on it already, a Devoe Coatings Epoxy paint, didn't stick and I don't want to make the same mistake the previous owner did.

Any thoughts?

[apex1]

Spray can foam is far more open cell, and absorbs water far more easily than commercially applied spray foam. None the less, all foam should be kept out of the bilges so any moisture can drain out of it.

Concur, first, one has to separate the "el cheapo" stuff from professionally choosen and applied one. Then the correct application comes into the game, and probably makes a different picture.
Not changing the fact, that the **** burns like hell and kills the entire crew in a minute.

Some of the recently built vessels in the range above 80ft are built with completely insulated bilges, which can make sense when a Armaflex foam is applied. See the Dashew comment and experience on that. It is not only ONE property, it is the accumulated value of a material which makes us choose one or the other.

Ahh, please do´nt butcher me again on referring to Dashews:cool:

Amateurs like our cpt. littlebrain of course do´nt grasp that.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Do you know if it has to be coated the same way as mild steel? The epoxy coating on it already, a Devoe Coatings Epoxy paint, didn't stick and I don't want to make the same mistake the previous owner did.
Any thoughts?

You are right, COR-TEN has some difficulties with accepting ep based primers, due to the "built in" weathering effect. But there are some ep based "tars" on the market addressing this problem quite well.
But then, I am building in wood ep mainly, there are others around here having the right product in mind.

Regards
Richard

[M&M Ovenden]

Hi,

Post # 1 reads:


Hi everybody, does anybody have some opinion or better yet own experience of steel hull isolation using any alternatives to PU foam spraying or PU sheets? Has anyone ever used some of the common house-building materials (styrofoam sheets, glass wool, etc.) and got away with it?

many thanks, Marijo


I understand this sentence to mean the person asking the question is looking for some material other than PU (Polyurethane) foam. Praising the merits of PU is a different topic, and if one wishes to discuss PU's merits my suggestion is to start a new thread on the forum. Taking threads off topic make finding good suggestions more difficult.

I think we can summarize and put this thread to rest.

-Armacell is the best alternative to PU.
-Armacell and PU have different properties that make them attractive to different users.


Cheers,
Mark

[capt littlelegs]

Concur, first, one has to separate the "el cheapo" stuff from professionally choosen and applied one. Then the correct application comes into the game, and probably makes a different picture.
Not changing the fact, that the **** burns like hell and kills the entire crew in a minute.

Some of the recently built vessels in the range above 80ft are built with completely insulated bilges, which can make sense when a Armaflex foam is applied. See the Dashew comment and experience on that. It is not only ONE property, it is the accumulated value of a material which makes us choose one or the other.

Ahh, please do´nt butcher me again on referring to Dashews:cool:

Amateurs like our cpt. littlebrain of course do´nt grasp that.

Regards
Richard

Spray foam is self extinguishing just like Armaflex which also absorbs water so you can't put it in the bilge, when are you the foam amateurs going to grasp that and start telling the truth?

[dskira]

Wrong again, spray foam is self extinguishing just like Armaflex which also absorbs water so you can't put it in the bilge, when are you the foam amateurs going to grasp that and start telling the truth? Apexliar :D

Could you be more courteous, it will be nice. You never stop insulting people.
Spray foam is not automaticaly self extinguishing, insurance company have hard time with that. And you never put insolation in the bilge. You should know that too,
And the agravation for the plating wityh spray foam can be real. In my experience.
I don't think you are an expert at everything touching boat. Let me know if I am wrong, I will be interrested.
Please try to answer without barking if possible. Thank you
Daniel

[apex1]

I have to contradict here Daniel.

Steve Dashew did insulate the bilges too to get rid of any possible mold buildup. But they run a very dry ship already.
http://setsail.com/insulating-boat-hull/

Others followed

Regards
Richard

[capt littlelegs]

Could you be more courteous, it will be nice. You never stop insulting people.
Spray foam is not automaticaly self extinguishing, insurance company have hard time with that. And you never put insolation in the bilge. You should know that too,
And the agravation for the plating wityh spray foam can be real. In my experience.
I don't think you are an expert at everything touching boat. Let me know if I am wrong, I will be interrested.
Please try to answer without barking if possible. Thank you
Daniel

I will be courteous when everyone else is, it didn't get me anywhere when I was so what's to lose? Apex is the one always insulting people but doesn't like it back, poor boy.

The foam used in European barges is self extinguishing and there are no insurance issues, your information is wrong. If you could read English you would see I said you can't put insulation in a bilge, no point anyway. No I'm not an expert at everything, I only comment on subjects I have experience of but then neither is anyone else an expert on everything here but there are plenty who think they are and they don't like it when they don't get their own way and lie quite openly.

You have done enough barking yourself lately so what gives you any right to tell others? You and your German mates are the most offensive 'know it all' people I've ever come across on a forum and you won't change and I for one won't forget that and if anyone insults me I'll do the same back, fair enough? Now go off and see if you can get me removed, I think I might welcome it.

[dskira]

I will be courteous when everyone else is, it didn't get me anywhere when I was so what's to lose? Apex is the one always insulting people but doesn't like it back, poor boy.

The foam used in European barges is self extinguishing and there are no insurance issues, your information is wrong. If you could read English you would see I said you can't put insulation in a bilge, no point anyway. No I'm not an expert at everything, I only comment on subjects I have experience of but then neither is anyone else an expert on everything here but there are plenty who think they are and they don't like it when they don't get their own way and lie quite openly.

You have done enough barking yourself lately so what gives you any right to tell others? You and your German mates are the most offensive 'know it all' people I've ever come across on a forum and you won't change and I for one won't forget that and if anyone insults me I'll do the same back, fair enough? Now go off and see if you can get me removed, I think I might welcome it.

Captain don't be rude. It is not necessary. And please don't dream, I am here to stay.
That said, you are boring with your non end winning. Grow up and get on with your life.
And never name somebody by its nationality,
You and your German mates
it is the first step to be racist.
Never ever do that again. I am dead serious.
Richard is my friend, I don't care about his nationality. If you care about it and has to name it he will make you a low life.
My nationality is US, yours in English, Brent is Canadian, Fanie is South African (I think) how cares about it?
This is the beauty of the forum. Can you gasp this concept?
Did I ever cross this line? no. You did.
Daniel

[capt littlelegs]

Captain don't be rude. It is not necessary. And please don't dream, I am here to stay.
That said, you are boring with your non end winning. Grow up and get on with your life.
And never name somebody by its nationality,

it is the first step to be racist.
Never ever do that again. I am dead serious.
Richard is my friend, I don't care about his nationality. If you care about it and has to name it he will make you a low life.
My nationality is US, yours in English, Brent is Canadian, Fanie is South African (I think) how cares about it?
This is the beauty of the forum. Can you gasp this concept?
Did I ever cross this line? no. You did.
Daniel

Don't tell me not to be rude when you can't hold your own tongue, who do you think you are? That's a bit rich calling me racist against a German lol! I'm quite entitled to refer to any nationality as you just did and for your information I am not a racist but you can't help but notice the arrogance sometimes. I don't take kindly to threats either, if you insult me I will insult you, do you understand that? There's no beauty in this forum, people like you see to that, after all your whinging and whining about someone, it's you that needs to grow up! Now get off your patronising high horse and try setting an example before criticising others because at the moment I have no respect for you or your opinion.

[dskira]

There's no beauty in this forum, .

Why you insist to stay.
Masochist perhaps. :P
By the way cool of, be civilized, you are making a fool of yourself.
Daniel

[Brent Swain]

Brent,

Quite true...we have a huge AC unit and heat as well. I was wondering if you knew anything about CORTEN steel. I read that the surface rust on that type of steel can act as a protective barrier for the steel beneath it. Do you know if it has to be coated the same way as mild steel? The epoxy coating on it already, a Devoe Coatings Epoxy paint, didn't stick and I don't want to make the same mistake the previous owner did.

Any thoughts?

I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland which built tugs. I asked the foreman about corten. He said they tried it and it was a waste of time and money, and caused more problems than it solved. He said you couldn't get corten in round , angle, pipe, in fact you couldn't get it in anything but plate , so anything which was not corten was sacrificial to the corten, including the welds. He said they got far more distortion than with mild steel , and it was considerably more expensive. They went back to mild steel ,and lived happily ever after.

[Brent Swain]

You can put the flame from a cutting torch on foam and it will go out, time and time again.. Then ,sometimes, the least little spark will set it burning like gasoline. It's extremely unpredictable as to when it will decide to burn like gasoline. Doesn't seem to have any logic, in this sense.
Friends had a major fire on one of my 36t footers in Frisco bay . She burned like gasoline, until the fire came to the part which was painted with cheap latex paint. There the fire went out , cold turkey, despite enough heat to make their loran and VHF into plastic stalactites.
Given that cheap latex is free at many recycling depots, and it only takes a couple of hours to paint your foam. it doesn't make any sense not to.

[Brent Swain]

I have to contradict here Daniel.

Steve Dashew did insulate the bilges too to get rid of any possible mold buildup. But they run a very dry ship already.
http://setsail.com/insulating-boat-hull/

Others followed

Regards
Richard

Aluminium is far more forgiving when it comes to insulating the bilges. May even keep the dropped penny from corroding thru. However , how new is the boat he did it to? Maybe some regrets down the road a few years. I find insulating the underside of the floor boards does the same thing, and still lets you keep an eye on the metal.
I find the bilge is far more corrosion prone than a few inches above it. There is no guarantee that there is no airspace between your insulation and the metal ,nor guarantee there will never be any, and that is always a potential problem.

[apex1]

......However , how new is the boat he did it to? .........

It was Brandnew when done

I find the bilge is far more corrosion prone than a few inches above it. There is no guarantee that there is no airspace between your insulation and the metal ,nor guarantee there will never be any, and that is always a potential problem.

Well you know Brent, that all boils just down again to the quality of application and / or maintenance. Correctly executed and designed there is no problem.

And on top of that, a synth. rubber does´nt require latex paint (not the worst solution on PU foam), to remain fire resistant in tricky conditions.
Latex by the way is processed into rubber, Armaflex AF is a synth. rubber................sic

The bilges we are talking here are even the engine room bilges, when there is a sufficient "drip pan" under the mains, gennies and other "pigs". Though it schould be covered by Armaflex R90

Regards
Richard

[majay]

I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland which built tugs. I asked the foreman about corten. He said they tried it and it was a waste of time and money, and caused more problems than it solved. He said you couldn't get corten in round , angle, pipe, in fact you couldn't get it in anything but plate , so anything which was not corten was sacrificial to the corten, including the welds. He said they got far more distortion than with mild steel , and it was considerably more expensive. They went back to mild steel ,and lived happily ever after.

Good lord, those are terrible thoughts. I have a soft chine corten steel yawl over 30 years old that seems to be doing quite well according to recent survey. I don't think I will be scuttling her yet...even though my welds have long been replaced by high quality duct tape.

[apex1]

Good lord, those are terrible thoughts. I have a soft chine corten steel yawl over 30 years old that seems to be doing quite well according to recent survey. I don't think I will be scuttling her yet...even though my welds have long been replaced by high quality duct tape.

:D :D :D nice, thanks.

Cor-Ten B is not difficult to weld and widely used by the industry.. In the late 50ies and early 60ies many of the open harbour launches / tugs in the ports of Hamburg and Bremen were built in Cor-Ten. They worked really hard and some still do, lasting better than their mild steel competitors.
But I am sure, our German yards did not know that expert from NZ.;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Hamburg-090612-0006-DSC_8097-Barkasse.jpg/800px-Hamburg-090612-0006-DSC_8097-Barkasse.jpg

[Brent Swain]

Well you know Brent, that all boils just down again to the quality of application and / or maintenance. Correctly executed and designed there is no problem.

And on top of that, a synth. rubber does´nt require latex paint (not the worst solution on PU foam), to remain fire resistant in tricky conditions.
Latex by the way is processed into rubber, Armaflex AF is a synth. rubber................sic

The bilges we are talking here are even the engine room bilges, when there is a sufficient "drip pan" under the mains, gennies and other "pigs". Though it schould be covered by Armaflex R90

Regards
Richard

Having lived aboard steel boats year round, mostly in BC, for the last 34 years, I have found no reason to insulate under an engine or in the bilges.
Having put carpet on my floor for the winter, my blges are dusty dry. Insulation in the bilges , or under an engine, is a big mistake . If there are problems under it. you have no way of knowing until it becomes a major problem. This is not the case with a well epoxied bilge, with no insulation.
On s a power boat, a drip pan may be adequate, but when sailing, and occasionally putting the rail under, the odds of oil escaping a drip pan are high. I build the hull under the engine into a drip pan. Any oil leaks preserve the steel well.

[apex1]

I had only motorboats in mind when i posted that, due to the fact that I pointed towards Dashews Windhorse.

[jboswell]

Hey guys, anyone have a number for an Armacell retailer/dealer here in Los Angeles? I have been trying to get someone/anyone on the phone and I haven't gotten anything, even tried an email..

I wanted to buy some (1/2") Armaflex for my Buccaneer 295 to insulate against the condensation, there is a horrendous amount of it during the winter months and I would like to liveaboard and not have it be a swamp.

Joe

[apex1]

Try one of them:

http://www.armacell.de/www/armacell/INETArmacell.nsf/web/FF8D318B5AC47E578025770B0036EE6D?OpenDocument&Nav=1151B7AAB800052B802576F0005EE05C

Regards
Richard

[SamSam]

Having lived aboard steel boats year round, mostly in BC, for the last 34 years, I have found no reason to insulate under an engine or in the bilges.
Having put carpet on my floor for the winter, my blges are dusty dry. Insulation in the bilges , or under an engine, is a big mistake . If there are problems under it. you have no way of knowing until it becomes a major problem. This is not the case with a well epoxied bilge, with no insulation.
On s a power boat, a drip pan may be adequate, but when sailing, and occasionally putting the rail under, the odds of oil escaping a drip pan are high. I build the hull under the engine into a drip pan. Any oil leaks preserve the steel well.
For a boat in cold water, if you don't insulate below the waterline, doesn't water constantly condense on the cooler steel? I've been in an uninsulated houseboat hull in the Mississippi River on the Minnesota/Iowa border and in the spaces below the cabin floors and decks, you could trace the waterline by heavy rust. Primer above and heavy layers of flakey rust below. Even if it was coated with epoxy, wouldn't the steel below the waterline be all wet from condensation?

[capt littlelegs]

For a boat in cold water, if you don't insulate below the waterline, doesn't water constantly condense on the cooler steel? I've been in an uninsulated houseboat hull in the Mississippi River on the Minnesota/Iowa border and in the spaces below the cabin floors and decks, you could trace the waterline by heavy rust. Primer above and heavy layers of flakey rust below. Even if it was coated with epoxy, wouldn't the steel below the waterline be all wet from condensation?

The water is still warmer than outside air so the bilge has insufficient temperature difference to cause significant condensation and in any event it is not affecting the accommodation. Any dampness in the bilge will come from internal air reaching the hull sides and the resulting condensation running down or other leaks. A damp, poorly ventilated bilge will rust, even more so with insulation that will absorb and hold onto moisture. If the bilge is painted some way it will protect it from contact with water for a while.

[Brent Swain]

For a boat in cold water, if you don't insulate below the waterline, doesn't water constantly condense on the cooler steel? I've been in an uninsulated houseboat hull in the Mississippi River on the Minnesota/Iowa border and in the spaces below the cabin floors and decks, you could trace the waterline by heavy rust. Primer above and heavy layers of flakey rust below. Even if it was coated with epoxy, wouldn't the steel below the waterline be all wet from condensation?

I had lots of condensation down there, before I put the carpet down to stop interior heat from making a huge difference in temperature between the air in the bilge and the steel . Putting carpet down reduced the condensation by 80% , insulating the underside of the floor eliminated most of the rest. Ventilation of warmer inside cabin air in the bilge will increase the temperature difference between the air and the steel , by increasing the temperature difference, and thus increase condensation. One could possibly use this as a built in dehumidifier to condense cabin air out into the bilge, and then pump it out. Dehumidifiers work on that principle.
Ventilation is a useless way to try reduce condensatioin. If that worked ,then the area with the most ventilation would have the least condensation. The insides of my vent pipes have the most condensation anywhere, yet have the most ventilation..

[capt littlelegs]

I had lots of condensation down there, before I put the carpet down to stop interior heat from making a huge difference in temperature between the air in the bilge and the steel . Putting carpet down reduced the condensation by 80% , insulating the underside of the floor eliminated most of the rest. Ventilation of warmer inside cabin air in the bilge will increase the temperature difference between the air and the steel , by increasing the temperature difference, and thus increase condensation. One could possibly use this as a built in dehumidifier to condense cabin air out into the bilge, and then pump it out. Dehumidifiers work on that principle.
Ventilation is a useless way to try reduce condensatioin. If that worked ,then the area with the most ventilation would have the least condensation. The insides of my vent pipes have the most condensation anywhere, yet have the most ventilation..

Good underfloor insulation is essential of course. The way we ventilate the bilge is to pipe outside air to the bilge then provide part or all heater combustion air directly from the bilge, this also helps keep the cabin air ventilated and dryer. It won't stop any bilge condensation but it helps dry it out.

[Brent Swain]

I know a guy who fed air to his oil stove from behind al the interconnected lockers, to draw air thru them. Worked well.

[M&M Ovenden]

I'm into the insulation search nightmare. I'm actually sold to armaflex but can't help looking around a bit more. This product has been presented to me http://www.isover-ultimate.com/ .

I haven't looked it threw to much but first impression is, I don't like it. Seems to be a fibrous material hence not closed cell.

I'd be interested by opinions on this stuff. It seems more like a product to be used on ships rather than pleasure boat and am quite surprised it was offered to me as a better alternative to Armaflex (salesman). Apparently all boat yards in Quebec use this :confused: . ...I'm in Ontario, guess I don't have to follow than :) .

Cheers,
Murielle

[apex1]

I'm into the insulation search nightmare. I'm actually sold to armaflex but can't help looking around a bit more. This product has been presented to me http://www.isover-ultimate.com/ .

I haven't looked it threw to much but first impression is, I don't like it. Seems to be a fibrous material hence not closed cell.

I'd be interested by opinions on this stuff. It seems more like a product to be used on ships rather than pleasure boat and am quite surprised it was offered to me as a better alternative to Armaflex (salesman). Apparently all boat yards in Quebec use this :confused: . ...I'm in Ontario, guess I don't have to follow than :) .

Cheers,
Murielle

It is mineral wool Murielle.

A proven and valid solution for our "big brothers", not the first choice for us.

Being fire resistant is their main advantage, a very important point with cruise ships.

A peculiar irony, these advanced mineral wool materials once were developed by my father.

Stick to the (expensive) Armacell range.

Regards
Richard

[M&M Ovenden]

Thanks, Richard
I'm slightly into the panic mode about the expense that Armaflex is going to represent for what we want but truly don't want to compromise about it. The trouble is that there is a monopole on the distribution of the stuff over here and that drives me crazy that I cant shop ...arrgg... I feel cornered by sales man.
I had priced it in 2007 when I budgeted the cost of building the boat and it turns out that in 3 years the prices have gone up over 60%. Does that sound right? Or am I facing a local opportunity increase?

M

[apex1]

Thanks, Richard
. I feel cornered by sales man.
I had priced it in 2007 when I budgeted the cost of building the boat and it turns out that in 3 years the prices have gone up over 60%. Does that sound right? Or am I facing a local opportunity increase?

M

I´ll try to check that Murielle. But I am still sailing, may take a bit.

Richard
edited:
Modern times.......
thanks GSM!

Per one mm thickness, the m² is roughly 1€ fob.

[apex1]

Did a quick check (well, ordered it),

Isover Ultimate is about 5€ m² at 100mm thickness.

Armaflex AF about 10€ at 10mm

I would recommend to execute the hull insulation against condensate in Armaflex 10 or 12,5 mm and the additional heat insulation around your living space and above waterline (from 30cm below in fact) in mineral wool. On top of that.

Regards
Richard

[M&M Ovenden]

Great. A few conversions later (I'm in imperial world here) and seems like the prices I've got are not too outrageous. About 8% more for me, shipped. Makes me feel better...but certainly not richer :D

I'm quoted on the AP, I believe that AP is the north American equivalent of AF. AP is whats available here and when compared specs they seam fairly similar (would it be the QC standards that would differ to match requirements for either side of the pond?). Dashew's boat is used as example by armaflex with AP.
I haven't dared getting a quote on NH but might . What do European standards say about use of AF vs NH, do they actually dig so far in details or is AF good enough to make everyone happy?

Murielle

[apex1]

Great. A few conversions later (I'm in imperial world here) and seems like the prices I've got are not too outrageous. About 8% more for me, shipped. Makes me feel better...but certainly not richer :D

I'm quoted on the AP, I believe that AP is the north American equivalent of AF. AP is whats available here and when compared specs they seam fairly similar (would it be the QC standards that would differ to match requirements for either side of the pond?). Dashew's boat is used as example by armaflex with AP.
I haven't dared getting a quote on NH but might . What do European standards say about use of AF vs NH, do they actually dig so far in details or is AF good enough to make everyone happy?

Murielle

AF is EU standard, AP is ASTMA standard, same stuff!

What s NH, the fire retardent foam. Used in engine rooms mainly. Don´t know what the EU Standards say, but sure there is no comparison. Personally I use the NH on top of a thin AF sheet in engine rooms only.

[M&M Ovenden]

Yep, it's the halogen-free all bells and whistle stuff. http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/INETFAQ.nsf/vFrame1/3BFA1A697C8EC9A4802570840039E57C
Turns out I can't get it easily anyway, so be it.

[apex1]

Do you need a price for NH too? I have no access now, yards closed! Bayram, all nuts here for several days.

[M&M Ovenden]

No need, I couldn't order easily NH anyway. I get tired of jumping hoops so I'll go with the easily (somewhat) available AP. Also debating on your "mixed materials" idea (armaflex/ultimate). Thanks.

Murielle

[Northman]

I would recommend to execute the hull insulation against condensate in Armaflex 10 or 12,5 mm and the additional heat insulation around your living space and above waterline (from 30cm below in fact) in mineral wool. On top of that.Richard

Richard,
not to argue, just curious. Won't the mineral wool sooner or later get soaked, even if the Armaflex takes care of the condensate? You were quite critical to mineral wool earlier and pointed rightly out that it captures humidity fast, but that it takes forever and a day to release it. There is always plenty of water inside a boat from cooking, oil clothes and whatnot.
Regards
Walter

[apex1]

Richard,
not to argue, just curious. Won't the mineral wool sooner or later get soaked, even if the Armaflex takes care of the condensate? You were quite critical to mineral wool earlier and pointed rightly out that it captures humidity fast, but that it takes forever and a day to release it. There is always plenty of water inside a boat from cooking, oil clothes and whatnot.
Regards
Walter

Right Walter,

if the mineral wool would be the only material I would not recommend it as was made clear in previous posts.
But tha Armaflex stops the main source of water ingress, condensate. The remaining humidity is there as gas, not water. And that will leave the mineral wool as easy as it got in.
The material in question here, is not the simple and cheap stuff commonly found at the hardware stores btw. This is already a magnitude better, and it could be a sensible choice in mild climate like the Mediterranean Sea. Unfortunately it is not as good on condensate prevention as Armaflex and insufficient in higher latitudes.

Regards
Richard

[Northman]

Richard,
I hope you got your Internet trouble fixed in Turkey? Thanks for the info,

Right Walter,

if the mineral wool would be the only material I would not recommend it as was made clear in previous posts.
But tha Armaflex stops the main source of water ingress, condensate. The remaining humidity is there as gas, not water. And that will leave the mineral wool as easy as it got in.

It would then be better not to use this Isover mat with an aluminium facing, but with an open surface?

The material in question here ... could be a sensible choice in mild climate like the Mediterranean Sea. Unfortunately it is not as good on condensate prevention as Armaflex and insufficient in higher latitudes.

Do you mean that it's not sufficient in colder climate alone or in combination with the Armaflex? I am pretty much in the same climate as Murielle; either cold or lousy cold.

Regards
Walter

Murielle,
please keep us posted how you and Mark eventually decide. I am really interested to hear about your choice!

[apex1]

Richard,
I hope you got your Internet trouble fixed in Turkey? Thanks for the info,

>>>>No, not yet!<<<<

It would then be better not to use this Isover mat with an aluminium facing, but with an open surface?

Do you mean that it's not sufficient in colder climate alone or in combination with the Armaflex? I am pretty much in the same climate as Murielle; either cold or lousy cold.

Regards
Walter



In cold climate like yours (and mine) mineral wool does not prevent condensate build up. It is not in contact with the hull due to the fibrous consistency.
If you have solved the prob. with a layer of Armaflex you can of course improve the values by adding a sheet of Isover on top.

Regards
Richard

[M&M Ovenden]

The Armaflex quest is on going...

As it is I'm pretty much sure we will be going with Armaflex and no mineral wool.* I think combining two product solution is a viable one and I did investigate it but, punching in the numbers it turns out not to provide enough economical advantage (for my situation) to split the insulation system in two, condensation barrier and heat barrier. It certainly would be a consideration for our boat if it would be destined to warmer climates or to only be used in summer but we lived on board our previous boat in sub -30C and could see this non sens happen again.
According to armacell's information sheet, for a proper condensation barrier, most sever conditions (-18C hull temperature / 32C interior / 80% RH) require 2" of armaflex. Yes, I agree this is for pretty extreme conditions but believe it or not we have experienced it. The boat frozen hard in the ice, minus thirty outside, the wind howling but more than toasty in the boat...warm memories...but back to my insulation... For condensation alone we are bond to 2" of insulation. Our rib depth is 4" on the hull, 3" under the deck. We want our lining to press against the insulation, no air gap; the reason is simply to eliminate void spaces which could accommodate unwanted creatures, hence bugs and vermin. We considered boxing in our frames to reduce the lost space and amount of insulation needed to fill the gap but realized that the gain was minimal for the increased labor. In fact, with wintering in cold climates in mind, 4 in of insulation is not as crazy as it may sound (yet way overboard for most boats) and would be at our advantage. So I ran numbers/dollars for 2" of Armaflex and 2" of Ultimate (mineral wool) and the cost wasn't much less than 4" of Armaflex, certainly not less enough to counter the cons of dealing with two different materials. In fact, as the pricing of the insulation is in function of the amount purchased (buy more and price per square foot goes down), buying smaller quantities of each material drives prices up compared to buying more of a unique one. I would have to be building much bigger or many more vessels to make it worth while to deal with two different insulation material.

http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/ACwwwAttach.nsf/ansFiles/AP%20Armaflex%20Sheet%20&%20Roll.pdf/$File/AP%20Armaflex%20Sheet%20&%20Roll.pdf

My Armaflex shopping has been a whole venture of it's own...not quite strait forward. Armacell's market target is obviously more into the big industry than nagging young women. I am actually not that bad of client (don't like back and forth dealing games), but I've hit some sales practice which are not quite my piece of cake. Lets just put it like this, quotes have range from $15000 (no wonder some people get the idea it's outrageously expensive) down to $4000 for the same job. If a distributor doesn't want my business, that is fine by me but they can just say so, not waste my time. Anyway, I finally found shoe that fits my foot and placed my order for Armaflex AP. I found a dealer in the US which has been a charm to deal with. I'll wait to have all transactions completed before saying more (don't want to jinx it) but can say already that trying to deal with local distributors (Canada) has not been a good experience.

[apex1]

Hi Murielle,

thats good news!
I feared you would end up near the upper end of the price scale, or even north of it, when going to such thickness.

You are aware that you have to cover the frames before you put the thick sheets on the hull plates? It is NOT necessary to insulate the frames as thick! Some 5mm will do.

Where do I collect my commision?

[M&M Ovenden]

No worry about covering up the frames. We are well aware of it and have the job planned to eliminate all heat bridges. No heat sink between cold and hot surfaces shall be left bare. I'm actually not only going to cover frames but also will not have any fasteners bridging cold to hot.

Hopefully commission will be honored sometime on your side of the pond. If ever you see our boat sailing by make sure to call us over and we could share dinner, drinks and good stories.

Murielle

[apex1]

Don´t worry about sharing .
First we find the forest, then we get the gun.............................finally it may happen we share the bearskin.

Welcome Murielle.

Richard

[M&M Ovenden]

It was a quest alright, but I finally got my truck load of insulation. Maybe I'll come around to writing the whole story. In brief local distributors being such a rip off I did get my insulation from a distributor over 1200km away from here. Unfortunately, shipping ended up not being as strait forward as it should of been and our pricey load was temporary lost.....I discovered myself some surprising Columbo skills and found my insulation within reasonable time. Circumstances leading to the shipment being lost were ridiculous, I'm still shaking my head. Anyway, it's here and I'm starting insulating.

Was wondering, is there a trick other than a sharp blade and patience to cutting Armaflex?

Murielle

[apex1]

Was wondering, is there a trick other than a sharp blade and patience to cutting Armaflex?

Murielle

Not that I would know one. My guys use a large sized scissors on occasion.

[TeddyDiver]

Something for the task. Not sure if it's better than scissors with Armaflex but a must with foam cushions http://www.bosch-pt.co.uk/boptocs2-uk/Trade+and+Industry/Tools/GB/en/gw/Foam+Rubber+Cutter/101352/GSG+300/5753/index.htm