CPP desapear from recreational boats Who gets the benefit of the crime ?

[kistinie]

Not us, final users, for sure.


CPP = Change pitch propeller give your engine always the good torque to fit the one you need.
They also free you from the real pain in the ....to decide if pitch will be 8 or 12 or 7 or 9 or 10 ...or Grrrrrrrrrr !!!!

As my good friend APEX said "Put a CPP, your engine will last for ever"
And he is perfectly right as long as you are gentle with him when cold and give only good synthetic oil.

As a CPP rise your propulsion efficiency, so lower total needed energy for the same travel.

As i think it is the only solution for an efficient electric propulsion and regeneration

As the CPP where common item in the 50's and 60's

Since then only billionaires and big commercial boats have access to CPP



Don't you see something wrong ?
Does this two speed world looks like something you already know ?


CPP, industrially produced wouldn't cost arm and leg like today.

(French say for cost arm&leg, cost "la peau des fesses" or "la peau des couilles"), i let you translate by yourself.
(Swiss, " un saladier")
Canadian ?


So to sum up
Without CPP, your engine last far less and you use much more energy
Once again, market is not always right as we see it needs to be saved every ten years

All this sound like cell phone for 1€, then monthly 100€...


Do your share this point of view ?

If no explain why.
If yes,
How could we correct this problem ?
First step would be to identify existing manufacturers of CPP, proposing solution for small engines and at accessible prices

Merci !

[TeddyDiver]

real VPP (variable pitch propeller)
http://www.westmekan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=14
or cheaper solution
http://www.bruntons-propellers.com/Autoprop/Autoprophome.htm

[kistinie]

Thanks for theses:

Are there any manufacturers in the states for small CPP units ?

Have you an idea of the price of the smallest CPP from West Mekan ?
I guess it is the HV25 with manual oil pump ?

[TollyWally]

In my humble opinion CPP systems are filled with expensive machined parts made of expensive material. A shaft within a shaft, swiviling prop blades, and things I'm not even aware of. I would love a cpp system. I believe the lack of availability is due to the expense of manufacture.

[thudpucker]

That Auto-prop looks something like an old Centrifigal prop I saw on a sail boat.
Either direction it was spinning, the prop blades flew open and cut the water.
When the shaft was not spinning, the blades were free to flop down next to the shaft and virtually out of the water. No resistance at all when the shaft was not turning.

Is something like that still around?

[kistinie]

Yes you are right but it seems it is also the fast low cost logic of our actual society, opposed to long term low cost that used to exist.

Do you think a cathedral builder was thinking of short term cost of his building to decide the size ?


Staying in CPP subject, how do you select the good pitch ?
For an electric engine, this is extremely easy as you just have to compare amps to speed, but for ICE i suppose a instantaneous fuel meter is compulsory or just searching for the highest boat speed at a given rpm is enough ?

[TeddyDiver]

Staying in CPP subject, how do you select the good pitch ?
Pyrometer... exhaust temp indicates the engine load.

There are other manufacturer's too but I believe they do bigger units for fishing vessels mostly (www.helseth.no www.hundestedpropeller.dk www.sabb.no www.smv-marine.no... if I recall them right) so two mentioned above are the most suitable for recreational boats.
Brunton's autoprop is actually a VPP (CPP, in my opinion, is just any adjustable propeller even when you got to take it of and/or use tools to set another pitch), not just a folding prop, as it adjusts it's pitch accoding speed and torque..

[FAST FRED]

"How could we correct this problem ?"

For most boats the best from an efficiency , engine service life and cost point is to STOP the owners from installing over sized diesel engines.

Gas car engines may need to run at a small proportion of "rated" power , but for a diesel its an expensive early death to underload.

80% of rated power at 90% rated rpm will keep the engine happy.

Installing a huge & stoopid size for use "when its blowing 40K and you want to blast to windward" is common , although the actual situation is rare.

When did you need it last?


FF

[kistinie]

Humans are very strange animals.

It is just like the 4X4 syndrome
If i want...i can...But it never happens. (for mathematicians, never is 1, 2, 3... % occurrence)

To answer your question
Last time was 2 years ago when on the oceanis 311 i was delivering the rudder control broke, safety rudder connection had too much play so could not stay in front of wind and reef.
Engine was too small also to face wind, so i went 45° to the wind. By chance wind stayed under 45, so i didn't had to cut the sail.
But even if i had no engine i would have found another solution.
Unless you get close to C, slowing time down :), always faster, bigger, always more power is often leading to the level 0 of imagination and creativity

So the bigger your diesel is, the richer your dealers will get !
I love this "crime / benefit" approach !

[TeddyDiver]

With VPP a boat needs not a single hp more than with standard screw..
Benefit comes when there'a a need to use less than full power at hull speed or full power with reduced speed . In the first case we deal mostly with motorsailing and in the second one with fishing vessels, tugs etc..

Worst thing to do with diesel engines is to stay by the pier and load batteries engine running... Having an oversized engine doesn't have nothing to do with that;)

[kistinie]

Worst thing to do with diesel engines is to stay by the pier and load batteries engine running... Having an oversized engine doesn't have nothing to do with that;)

This is exactly what happens for 90% of rented sail boats and a lots of privately owned.
Just search for serious solar panels and aero generator in an harbour, you get the answer of how energy is produced.
It was the case of my trimaran that only had a broken 25 watt solar panel for 2 pilots, PC, Radar, plotter, irridium, 5 electric pump....

Returning on low speed full power from CPP selecting small pitch, is this a solution to go against strong wind with low power engine, i guess yes ?

[apex1]

The statement that CPP disappeared is not right. The opposite is correct! There are more CPP manufacturers today than we had in the 60´s. Most of them are mentioned above, but do´nt forget "Maxprop" and "Gori" for the low power (or sailing) range; and "Piening" and "ZF" for higher outputs.
We install mainly Hundested in our displacement boats.
The often heared statement that these systems are expensive is definetily wrong! In a fair price comparison you´ll find a CPP installation is as cheap (or expensive) as a conventional gearbox and drivetrain of the same quality. Boatbuilders often compare the cheapest available gearbox, shaft and prop with the high end Scandinavian CPP installation and find a noticeable difference then. Naturally....
Edited: I just found an old calc.(2005) and the difference was 2.300€ per drivetrain (CPP above the gearbox), but that was on a 36mtr. and each engine was about 180.000€. So I do´nt call that a difference.
The whole Scandinavian fishing fleet uses CPP only! And we all know that fishermen have no money to waste.
The main advantage of a CPP is the fact that you allways operate your Diesel on a perfect load setting, that gives the most efficient consumption and keeps your engine happy.
Fast Fred, it is not the question how often you have to go uphill in a force 10 storm. But if your yacht crosses the Atlantic at 50% power setting or just the pond from Ibiza to Mallorca at 85% makes a huge difference. And that is everyday use on larger displ. yachts.
Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Disappeared ...from leisure boats 20 to 40 feet it seems.

Not that expensive ? This can be a relative consideration :-)

What would be the minimum budget to equip a 10 to 15 hp motor for a true CPP i can control from 0 to + - max pitch ?
This size 10/15 even 20 hp is a very common size for sailing boat

Maxprop is a true full CPP ?
Can i change the pitch as i desire manually from a remote control or is it automatic ?

[apex1]

Disappeared ...from leisure boats 20 to 40 feet it seems.
There was never a big number of boats in that range equipped with CPP, so nothing could disappear.
Not that expensive ? This can be a relative consideration :-)

No that is not relative. I said "fair comparison"....

What would be the minimum budget to equip a 10 to 15 hp motor for a true CPP i can control from 0 to + - max pitch ?
This size 10/15 even 20 hp is a very common size for sailing boat
These questions the market should answer, not a boatbuilder.
Maxprop is a true full CPP ?
Can i change the pitch as i desire manually from a remote control or is it automatic ?
Are you shure, you know what a CPP installation is?


Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

There was never a big number of boats in that range equipped with CPP, so nothing could disappear.

No that is not relative. I said "fair comparison"....

These questions the market should answer, not a boatbuilder.

Are you shure, you know what a CPP installation is?

Mmmmm I am dispointed, No informations ...
:?: Stonewalling exercise :?:

[apex1]

Nono, I just do´nt like to do your job. My time is precious.

[kistinie]

Nono, I just do´nt like to do your job. My time is precious.

I this a new aged spirit for the forum ?

:confused: :) :p :D :P

[TeddyDiver]

One more with a bit different solution http://www.redbackmarine.com/cpp_facts.htm

[kistinie]

Nice product !
Not very adapted to slow motion boats and small sailing boats that are really forgotten by the market (or owners forget the market ?)

But the positive point is that it is another option going into the direction of more efficient propulsion.

[thudpucker]

Kis, go to those Websites and find that info from a salesperson.

[kistinie]

Yes !
But for 5 to 10 Kw engine i'm afraid the offer is very limited.
Last year i have seen on a racing 60" a prototype of hydrogenation pod (so reversible as any electric motor) using CPP, and i guess the commercial product is not very far from...But from where and when ?

And talking about it will autoprophetise its comming i hope, as industry is reading this forum !
Asking invoices to manufacturers will do the same !

So i've ask West Mekan and others, price and efficiency curves...waiting for answer

[FAST FRED]

SABB and Bukh used to make tiny CPP engine packages.

They were in small sail & power boats.

One hassle with a full range CPP is they frequently leave out a clutch.

The problem is when you go flat pitch and shut down the engine , on restart most cold engines will have a higher idle speed for a while.

And you are underway -either fwd or back , depending.

Look for a used setup to rebuild if cost is a hassle.

FF

[kistinie]

Cold start ...
Electric engine :D
No problemo !


Will ask Sabb and Bukh too but i'am afraid that it is as you said "used to" ...but not any more
Thanks again !

[TeddyDiver]

A small unit could be produced by some handyman quite easily.. Hard part is where to find needed materials ..

[apex1]

One hassle with a full range CPP is they frequently leave out a clutch.

The problem is when you go flat pitch and shut down the engine , on restart most cold engines will have a higher idle speed for a while.

And you are underway -either fwd or back , depending.
FF
Fred a real CPP, not a foldable can be adjusted to zero thrust easily so, thats not a problem.

And Kistinie, CPP stands for controllable pitch propeller!

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

A friend told me that the main reason was the lack of gain because of the heavy and too complex mechanism.

I sounds true but is it really impossible to do light medium cost reliable CPP for lets say 10 to 30 Kw

Can anyone estimate a cost, MTBF and an efficiency for such a product ?

[gonzo]

You are looking for information about a fantasy you created. There were never large numbers of CPP, whether in the 40's and 50's or any other era. A question based on a wrong assumption, specially when you demand a particular answer, will get you nowere; at least in the real world

[kistinie]

In a way yes.
But "Gonzo" is by definition being implicated in the subject and having a partial vision. :p

So whatever the number of products, they were, they are not any more...
what is the cost to have them again.

[thudpucker]

CPP...the one I rented in Port Angles Washington in 1957 or 58 was controlable only to the point of Fwd/N/Rev.
It had a lever at the rear of the little B&S engine. The lever controlled a shaft going through the bottom of the boat (alongside the shaft) to a Raceway in the Propellor blades.
A Bearing in the raceway moved the blades (Rotated the blades).
The blades at the root were encapsulated in a hub. they would rotate to the point the blade was pushing or pulling water.
Neutral was established up at the Control lever by a detent action.

Later on I worked on a WWII Sub Chaser. It had a huge Hydraulicly controlled pitch arrangment.
Marvelous arrangment with big BUDA Four Cyl Diesel providing the Hydraulic controls. What a Hot rod that ship was!
That was a true CPP. The whole cycle could be finely controlled.

The handyman might make the F/n/R model I rented, but not the complex and super performing Hydraulic Hot Rod model for a 110' Sub Chaser.

Still, I'd like to see some details, drawings, dreams, etc. Give me a chance! I might be the Handyman we are looking for.
Dick

[peter radclyffe]

In my humble opinion CPP systems are filled with expensive machined parts made of expensive material. A shaft within a shaft, swiviling prop blades, and things I'm not even aware of. I would love a cpp system. I believe the lack of availability is due to the expense of manufacture.
were all tourists, your ancestors were tourists, aren't you glad no one shot them

[peter radclyffe]

You are looking for information about a fantasy you created. There were never large numbers of CPP, whether in the 40's and 50's or any other era. A question based on a wrong assumption, specially when you demand a particular answer, will get you nowere; at least in the real world
it will get you into any parliament

[thudpucker]

I didnt understand Pete's post!?

TollyWally, for your nice big Tolly's, and other large craft, the Hydraulic or Mechanical gear'd CPP is out of the question. Too much breakable stuff.
Pulling one of those nice big boats is just too expensive a process in time and money, to work in a mess like a CPP.

For my little skiff or Jon boat, it's a pretty doable thing.
Lots of whirling parts that drag. Consuming lots of HP. But in a light skiff weighing in at less than 200# Total, its not too much of a price to pay for an inboard with a reversing mechanisim.
It's just sort of un-necessary though since we have outboards that weigh less and perform better.
It's an Idea a lot of guys might try....including myself.

[peter radclyffe]

I didnt understand Pete's post!?

TollyWally, for your nice big Tolly's, and other large craft, the Hydraulic or Mechanical gear'd CPP is out of the question. Too much breakable stuff.
Pulling one of those nice big boats is just too expensive a process in time and money, to work in a mess like a CPP.

For my little skiff or Jon boat, it's a pretty doable thing.
Lots of whirling parts that drag. Consuming lots of HP. But in a light skiff weighing in at less than 200# Total, its not too much of a price to pay for an inboard with a reversing mechanisim.
It's just sort of un-necessary though since we have outboards that weigh less and perform better.
It's an Idea a lot of guys might try....including myself.
its good to know your not a politician

[kistinie]

my need for a light CPP is almost compulsory

Can anybody help to answer theses questions
How much $ or € ?
How often MTBF ?
% Mechanical loss ?

[TeddyDiver]

Can anybody help to answer theses questions


How much $ or € ? Quessing.... a real thing up from 6000€? Second hand from Norway might start from 1000€ (oldies... )
How often MTBF ? Depends :rolleyes:
% Mechanical loss ? Depends..

[TeddyDiver]

http://baatplassen.no/p/showproduct.php?product=439&cat=7
This one is new but without gearbox and too big for you..

[kistinie]

Thanks.
About MTBF and % efficiency, any numbers or is this top secret to keep ...secret :rolleyes: ?

[FAST FRED]

Check out Gori ( http://www.gori-propeller.dk/Index.asp?ID=86).

This is only a 2 position unit , but at cruise it will drop the rpm about 400 and increase the load at cruise by about 20% , perhaps enough to gain efficiency at the usual underloading of cruise.

"About MTBF and % efficiency, any numbers or is this top secret to keep ...secret "

What you need to get is called a "FUEL MAP", usually not given out , but you could ask.

FF

[thudpucker]

my need for a light CPP is almost compulsory

Can anybody help to answer theses questions
How much $ or € ?
How often MTBF ?
% Mechanical loss ?

K are you talking about a Constant Speed Prop, or a Controllable Pitch Prop?

[kistinie]

I need full pitch change; continuously from Forward to Reverse !
Thanks for help !

[thudpucker]

K, Constant speed refer's to an automatic pitch control based on shaft RPM.

As in using fly-weights to make the prop grab a bigger bite as the speed of the prop increases.

Controllable Pitch is a method of selecting a rich or lean bite from some control lever in the cockpit.

From those descriptions, which are you needing?

I dont have your answer, I just wanted to understand your question.
Did you look at Fast Fred's link to the GORI propellor. I did but couldnt view the movie. It looks like it might work on engines as small as a 2.5L four cylinder.

[TeddyDiver]

Thanks.
About MTBF and % efficiency, any numbers or is this top secret to keep ...secret :rolleyes: ?

MTBF and effiency are both dependable of the unit, load, engine power and how it's used etc. For sure there's such data of fishing vessels with cpp screws and especially the effiency is the main promoting argument for them..
Believe thou that such data is mainly available in Danish or Norwegian.. ?

[apex1]

In a way yes.
But "Gonzo" is by definition being implicated in the subject and having a partial vision. :p

So whatever the number of products, they were, they are not any more...
what is the cost to have them again.

Are you now complety nuts? Did´nt I tell you that there are more producers and products on the market today than ever before?

Read my posts even if you do´nt like it.

And Thud:
Still, I'd like to see some details, drawings, dreams, etc. Give me a chance! I might be the Handyman we are looking for.
Dick

Thanks, really no need! The complete Scandinavian fishing flotilla uses extremely well engineered and reliable (and affordable) CPP´s since ages.

[kistinie]

""Gonzo journalism is a style of journalism which is written subjectively, often including the reporter as part of the story via a first person narrative. The style tends to blend factual and fictional elements to emphasize an underlying message and engage the reader. The word Gonzo was first used in 1970 to describe an article by Hunter S. Thompson, who later popularized the style. The term has since been applied to other subjective artistic endeavors."

Cardoso claimed that "gonzo" was South Boston Irish slang describing the last man standing after an all night drinking marathon


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism


Now, my answer was more a joke than pure serious, keep cool ! ;)

i need to control manually the pitch, Gori or Brompton will be second choices if true CPP isn't availlable for project

[apex1]

>>>>>>>>>>>>i need to control manually the pitch, Gori or Brompton will be second choices if true CPP isn't availlable for project<<<<<<<<<<<

After 43 posts in this thread you still have no clue what a controllable pitch propeller is, nor do you know that they are produced by many companies and in serious numbers. Impressive how a simple person can ignore sufficient information and advice.

[kistinie]

After 43 posts in this thread you still have no clue what a controllable pitch propeller is, nor do you know that they are produced by many companies and in serious numbers. Impressive how a simple person can ignore sufficient information and advice.


What is your real goal ?
You have answers and knowledge ? Be useful to the community, give names, models and descriptions of products for under 20 to 30 Kw power.

[thudpucker]

I drew one up on a Napkin today at Lunch. It's aimed at small HP engines and boats that dont need a lot of pressure on the props. My Jon boat for instance.

My prop is two blades, two inches of blade angle. IE: the blade is six inches from leading to trailing edge, and the leading edge is one inch behind center while the trailing edge is one inch in front of center. Two inches total.
Eight inches of blade. That should equal 32 inches of propulsion (without factoring in all the slippage) per turn at full deflection. Both fwd and reverse. Micro adjustable.

The Bearings lubed by the water are the big question with my idea.
My idea is for a Machine shop though. I doubt you could make one with a Hammer and tongs.

If I could use one of those drawing programs I'd post it.
Pretty simple really. Like Apex says, it's probably already patented in 30 countries.

[kistinie]

If patent is the only problem...no problem

China has enough lost on US $ treasury bonds to care about a respecting a forbidden or too expensive patent

If the product works and can be sold on a sufficient scale, they will find a way to make it and sell it.

[TollyWally]

It's not a conspiracy, it's lots of moving parts under stress in a harsh environment. It is intriquite parts precisely made out of expensive material in relatively small amounts.

[kistinie]

I guess it is not a conspiracy but rather negligence.
Product made on a large scale, price will dramatically go down

When i will be fed up to search reason in the old Occident, i will spend a year in china and do the necessary to output an hybrid product

[thudpucker]

Tolly I wish I could show you my drawings. My two bladed CPP has Three moving parts. Its pretty good looking if I do say so myself.

Right now I'm working on the Mfg of the parts. I dont want it to be an expensive thing to Manufacture.

Those one's your talking about are for real working boats with Powerful motors. I've seen the drawings on the inner workings. Amazingly complex. Look expensive to make as well, unless done on a very large scale.

[thudpucker]

Mmmmm I am dispointed, No informations ...
:?: Stonewalling exercise :?:

C'mon K, you dont seem to understand what we tell you. Your question has been answerd more than once.

I asked you pointedly if you understand the difference between CPP and CSP and you never answerd. How can we tell what you want?:confused:
You never gave us the size of the boat we should be dealing with.:confused:

The last thing You need to know is the U.S. Patent office.
Go there and search the files of old patents. I'd bet there are at least 20 'patents applied for' in the Controllable Pitch prop venue. Those patents will all be from the 1915 to 1939 area. Before that we Rowed or had larger boats with fixed props. After 1939 WWII was on and no ALuminum or Stainless was available. After WWII the outboards became numerous and there was no need for small boat CPP's

CSP is used on Airplanes more than boats. There must be a reason for that as well. Do some research there to answer your own questions.

While I realize you dont do well in our language, you still should't be slapping us around for trying to help you. It you! Not us. You dont seem to understand what we tell you.:(

I'm gonna guess that what you want us to provide something you can take to China and get them to Mfg cheaply.:rolleyes:

That's a fools errand.
Nobody in Mfg would go into production on an item they will have a limited market for.

Quit stalling, ducking and dodging. Come out with what you want to know.
Answer with some kind of logical statment.
Not those links that lead us to a monumental amount of reading, and without knowing what you want us to see in those links. You can tell us what you want us to know. It's easy, try it sometime.:)

[kistinie]

je cherche une hélice à pas variable en continu pour un arbre moteur qui tourne en permanence
le mécanisme de commande doit pouvoir etre controlé de l'incidence maximum en marche avant jusqu'a l'incidence maximum en marche arriere le point millieu étant le point neutre.

Maybe in french i will be understood better ?

I have no inversion on the shaft
the shaft never stop rotating at the same speed, and always clockwise.
the pitch does all
Forward, reverse, neutral
The pitch can be changed manually as desired

Sorry for this communication problem, maybe just a question of words
in french CPP = hélice à pas variable and under this name is all kind of CPP, including planes. One and only name



i want to buy one
a new one
or a used one


And if i cannot buy one, i will make my own taking the best of patent i can find

[thudpucker]

Dont use the Initials K, I still dont know if you understand the difference between Controllable Pitch and Constant Speed.

Your shaft runs at one speed. Good we got that far.
How much HP, and how big of a boat?

Your right about my French. Its much worse than your English.

[apex1]

What is your real goal ?
You have answers and knowledge ? Be useful to the community, give names, models and descriptions of products for under 20 to 30 Kw power.

Idiot! I have given these info´s several times.

[apex1]

I guess it is not a conspiracy but rather negligence.
Product made on a large scale, price will dramatically go down

When i will be fed up to search reason in the old Occident, i will spend a year in china and do the necessary to output an hybrid product

You dont like to understand what I told you at least three times!
THERE ARE MORE PRODUCERS AT THE MARKET THAN EVER BEFORE, PRODUCING A WIDER RANGE OF MODELS THAN EVER BEFORE!
And in a direct comparison a CPP installation is NOT more expensive than a conventional drivetrain!

So, your whole Thread is like all your others, the pure nonsense!

More yachts are driven by CPP systems today than ever before! Hammer this into your empty brain, and stop arguing about a issue that not exists!
Go to China, very good idea! But go for at least 35 years, and leave the evil old technique behind you.

[kistinie]

Idiot! I have given these info´s several times.

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” A.H
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” J.G

I see you have great references for your communication technique.
If you have difficulty to understand the initials, i give you a trick, they lived in Germany, and hopefully for mankind survival, are now dead
Are you a kind of fan of this communication style ?

---------------------------------------

A 20 Kw PRODUCT for 3 to 6 tons boat

A MANUFACTURER
A PRICE
A PICTURE

Where ?

About manufacturers cited here along these pages, i have given a call to all and answer was always "Sorry no nothing"

[TollyWally]

Thudpucker,
You are correct about the units I was talking about. I am fascinated by your project. I hope it comes to fruition. Good luck and let us know more when the time is right. :)

[thudpucker]

I'm going to put it up here. Whoever makes it will be the good guy, and if he makes it work I'll put some candles on a cake for him.
Its gonna take a few more days of doodling before I can scan the doodles so you can read them.

[apex1]

Have you an idea of the price of the smallest CPP from West Mekan ?
I guess it is the HV25 with manual oil pump ?

Kis, go to those Websites and find that info from a salesperson.

Yes !
But for 5 to 10 Kw engine i'm afraid the offer is very limited.
Last year i have seen on a racing 60" a prototype of hydrogenation pod (so reversible as any electric motor) using CPP, and i guess the commercial product is not very far from...But from where and when ?

And talking about it will autoprophetise its comming i hope, as industry is reading this forum !
Asking invoices to manufacturers will do the same !

So i've ask West Mekan and others, price and efficiency curves...waiting for answer

You are looking for information about a fantasy you created. There were never large numbers of CPP, whether in the 40's and 50's or any other era. A question based on a wrong assumption, specially when you demand a particular answer, will get you nowere; at least in the real world




A 20 Kw PRODUCT for 3 to 6 tons boat
A MANUFACTURER
A PRICE
A PICTURE



You bark up the wrong tree layman. You should remember your own foolish statements better!

[kistinie]

My need is 5 to 10 Kw and a 3 tons boat
But for evident commercial reasons i think a 20Kw product is more likely to be found or built and 6 tons much larger application if a new product mst be done from scratch

And again APEX

Just wind, always no answer, nothing but wind and rage
Keep cool !
It is bad for heart

[mydauphin]

For 5kw to 10kw motor and a 3 ton boat.... Buy an outboard... It isn't going to very fast anyway. Gas should last a while... Might make it to China on like 1000 gals...

[kistinie]

No ! Not back again at the beginning !

I do not need advice on what kind of engine to put, i need help to find a CPP or whatever it must be called for a shaft always turning same speed, same direction, never stopping rotating when engine on or boat moving even under sail.

Is this so difficult ?

[mydauphin]

How much do you want to pay for it Kistinie?

[kistinie]

In my opinion, for unitary product it should cost under to 2 to 4K direct out from manufacturer , depending on quality of work, materials and cost of labour ie the country. In India it is less, in Sweden more

Good constructive question...

[apex1]

No ! Not back again at the beginning !

I do not need advice on what kind of engine to put, i need help to find a CPP or whatever it must be called for a shaft always turning same speed, same direction, never stopping rotating when engine on or boat moving even under sail.

Is this so difficult ?

No, not difficult, senseless! No controllable pitch propeller turns always at the same speed.
YOU THINK you are looking for a CPP that might fulfill your Phantasy of a multi purpose installation (propulsion and generation) and you like to have for almost free (naturally no dealer or service point, directly from the manufacturers shelve, what else), you dream, boy, you dream!

And I told you several times: I WILL NEVER AGAIN GIVE YOU ANY SENSIBLE INFORMATION! YOU NEGATED EVERY SINGLE INFO I PROVIDED IN YOUR STUPID THREADS: EXCEPT ONE !!! I WAS THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU ABOUT THE SENSE OF A CPP INSTALLATION !!!

Since today you do not really know how the variable pitch on a propeller works, nor the advantage of it.

it was all said by a former contributor:

You are looking for information about a fantasy you created. There were never large numbers of CPP, whether in the 40's and 50's or any other era. A question based on a wrong assumption, specially when you demand a particular answer, will get you nowere; at least in the real world

[mydauphin]

In my opinion, for unitary product it should cost under to 2 to 4K direct out from manufacturer , depending on quality of work, materials and cost of labour ie the country. In India it is less, in Sweden more

Good constructive question...

What size prop and shaft you think you need?

[kistinie]

20 or 25 mm shaft is more than enough for 20 Kw i think.

i would say 16" or 17" to avoid slip, this following the prop size OZ is using in sweeden that is 16 inch
I will go for big diameter as i will try to keep rpm as low as possible
I do not think i will go much over 15Knt under sail for regeneration, as i do not want to loose my boat.
Under motor, hull speed with 6 Kw was measured over 8 Knts, with the boat over weighted to 3.5 Tons instead of 2.8 normal weight, so i guess 9 Knts will be more realistic for 6 Kw

The propeller will be used for regeneration and propulsion and that is not compatible as even the form of blades should change, not only the pitch

So the choice of the size of propeller and skew is more than difficult, in fact for the use i plan the propeller will always be maladapted
Controlling the pitch is a way to approximate a solution but will never be full satisfaction, rather always average.
Now better than a fix propeller.

[apex1]

i would say 16" or 17" to avoid slip
I do not think i will go much over 15Knt as i do not want to loose my boat.

16" or 17" by what?............... to be constructive.
And is the max. speed figure given related to a existing vessel? at 5 to 10 kw?

15 knots? every single one of them at the same time? At sea?

A 17" Prop plus 15% (fast revving, near surface, better 20%) is almost 55 centimeters diam. . Is "your" 2,5 tons trimaran going that deep? I doubt that. As I doubt every single statement you have made here!

[TeddyDiver]

This is then the right prop for you thou you got pay some more to get it..

[kistinie]

Thanks Teddy

I asked them an invoice a month ago for this product, more precisely for the manually controlled one, not electric, by phone, then by mail but never had any answer...And didn't insist as i hardly understand such commercial behaviour.
But this is another different problem
Thanks anyway
Have you an idea of the cost and of the performance , ie lost Kw ?

[FAST FRED]

"China has enough lost on US $ treasury bonds to care about a respecting a forbidden or too expensive patent."

China hasn't given a DAMN about copy right or patent protection since before they HAD a Dollar!!

Your constant speed prop does NOT exist.

So figure a way to do what ever you are dreaming of with std. off the shelf parts.

May save you a couple of decades.

FF

[mydauphin]

May be you didn't say please...

[kistinie]

About patent and china, it is just a fact, they do not pay and in the future i do not see a reason why they would ...It is not my fault :p

Now as i do not like patent, this situation is rather a satisfaction for me.


Why do you say this product does not exist ?

And
I said please...May be the accent ?

[TeddyDiver]

Have you an idea of the cost and of the performance , ie lost Kw ?
Performance don't know.. but about the best "on shelf" product you can get..
cost.. unit for 35mm shaft 79 000 NOK.. so for 25mm somewhat cheaper I suppose..
I'm totally ¤$*§€*~ with nonresponsivenes of many Nordic vendors etc. So it's no news if you got to pray to get any information. Even if you place an order it's way too common they don't send any information even if they are delayed for weeks :mad: So the real Mañana world is up here..

[kistinie]

Whao ! i will have to attack another bank ...euh no not a bank it will be empty, i will only get debts :D

About lack of reaction
May be it's the cold climate...it usually slows down the chemical reactions ?
Thanks !

[FAST FRED]

"Why do you say this product does not exist ?"


Because products are mfg to fit a NEED ,

and so far YOU are the only person in the world that wants a constant speed prop!

FF

[kistinie]

When i said constant speed shaft it is just a way to make clear that i want to be able to go forward slow or fast, reverse, stop, this, only playing on the pitch, the shaft keeping on turning.
As it seemed very difficult to explain this to my interlocutors i did this short

In reality the rmp will change, but not that much compare to a traditional propulsion. i think it could be something like 900 to 1500

I hope it is understood better now :)
Thanks !

[apex1]

I hope it is understood better now :)
Thanks !

No, it is still senseless!
The main advantage of the CPP is to load the engine sufficiently at DIFFERENT rpm.
You just have NO IDEA what you´re talking about. Thats what we understand!

[kistinie]

No, it is still senseless!
The main advantage of the CPP is to load the engine sufficiently at DIFFERENT rpm.
You just have NO IDEA what you´re talking about. Thats what we understand!

a CPP change the load on the engine. Wooo ! What a new crucial fact you bring !

As usual you look down on what you do not understand and give no useful informations.
Forget me forever, please
Now, this is not that negative, as with such a behaviour toward me you lighten a lot my karma (wyrd in your country) !
Thank you very much for this gift.


To come back to the technical problem, if such a device is impossible to get, the CPP can be simplified in a more simple non reversing model only allowing only pitch change for positive torque
Is this simplification helping the design of such a CPP ?

I am very surprised that after 79 post the only product found is a 12000 dollar product (35mm shaft)!
So to have a small CPP propeller in 2009 on a light leisure boat the price is probably around 10.000 $ for a smaller 25mm shaft
This is acceptable for a 200.000$ boat
But for a 30.000 one ???
My god, the price of a nice city car !
Can't we find any better solution ?



------------------------

These are the forum rules:
I do not understand why moderators are so indulgent with you APEX


2.) Conduct must be conducive to sharing ideas and information

2a.) It is never acceptable to insult or attack other members. Disagreement is healthy and beneficial to intelligent discussion but should be based always on ideas and factual information and never degenerate to a personal attack or insult.

A violation of the above may lead to the immediate termination of your login and being banned from the forum permanently at the descretion of the moderator(s). More than one violation will mean the termination of your login and permanent banning from the forum without discussion. If you believe a post constitues an attack against you or other violation, you are always welcome to report this using the "report post" icon on the top right of each post .

[FAST FRED]

Is this simplification helping the design of such a CPP ?

ANY CPP will be able to operate with out a clutch , in other words the shaft turns all the time. But NOT at a constant speed

With the control wheel full pitch in reverse thru zero pitch to full pitch forward is what they do.

Of course when the pitch requirement is too high the shaft slows down , or you add power.

FF

[fcfc]

Controlable Pitch Propellers have near disappeared in small size, because it costs much much less to burn a little more fuel than to buy a CPP and all its ancillary items (hollow shaft and all shaft seals, pitch control command, etc ..)

With a CPP, you will still need a clutch and a reduction. You could only save the reverse part of the transmission, ie not much.

[kistinie]

FF
yes speed changes but to keep the diesel engine in his optimal efficiency area you will go to the extreme consider of only one speed. This is just an abuse of language i do, to keep this in mind
that is to say that you have one usual cruising speed depending on weather condition, by example the more head wind you get the slower you will go, but load will remain the same on the engine, as well as shaft engine speed
You economy pilot your boat, accepting the natural events
Electric motor is far less sensible to this, but in this case the regeneration/drag factor will impose the search of more constant speed for shaft, and on fast multihull this is compulsory

Fc Fc

The real balance of gain in energy consumption, regeneration electricity increase and engine life compare to additional cost of CPP is certainly not as bad as we could think.
Now with 10K$ region price for a 6k$ engine, the discussion is likely to be closed, i agree with that.

[fcfc]

Another thing for regeneration.

Why do you want to capture wind energy to move a boat with lost efficiency, then use the boat move in water to turn a water prop, again with lost efficiency, to turn a generator.

Why dont turn a generator directly with the wind ? It will even work the boat anchored, which is by far the most frequent situation of a leisure boat.

There are very few CPP on the market, but wind generators are available nearly everywhere, in every model and size.

Just my 2 cents.

[kistinie]

Size, danger, windage and noise for same power produced

Of course i loose speed
But
To get 1 Kw from a windmill, you need a monster, one more monster aboard to look at
When i sail i need the comfort of a lot of energy as it is security
it also can be used to slow the boat in gale configuration without deploying drogue and to the contrary of ICE, you get energy from this, so it can last a week.
And this is just an example
Now for the few snakes of boat industry dry minded reading this forum to get free ideas to patent, steal this one.
With an electric motor linked to an electric CPP, you will be able to patent and sale expensive "myballsmotion" "ifukcUcontrol" program to drive the BLDC controller and the pitch of propeller of an hybrid sailing boat, by example, reading back emf and delta t amps of motor, to make it go up wave and down wave at the same speed or do better upwind stable trajectory when wind is unstable. Active motion for sailing boat will be next generation of electric propulsion.

Bear in mind that my ideas are for multihull or very fast monohull
I know that this kind of things are not vital to trawlers
So if you talk of a motor home boat, my idea is stupid
And once a boat is anchored, it is a home.
Anything fits a home, nothing is vital.

SECURITY and AGAIN SECURITY
worth 3 cents ;-)
Merci pour la bonne question !

Now if you can find me a nice used inexpensive CPP, i would be more than happy !

[apex1]

FF
yes speed changes but to keep the diesel engine in his optimal efficiency area you will go to the extreme consider of only one speed. This is just an abuse of language i do, to keep this in mind
that is to say that you have one usual cruising speed depending on weather condition, by example the more head wind you get the slower you will go, but load will remain the same on the engine, as well as shaft engine speed



As usual, the sheer nonsense!
When will you lean back a while (say 25 years) and learn what a CPP is? The advantage of such propeller is that you load your engine optimal at EVERY rpm! And naturally every speed! You just have to set your preferred rpm and load the engine by increasing pitch (as one example).
And stop complaining about prices you do´nt have!
And NO NO NO I do not point to any prices or better info in this idiotic thread with it´s senseless title!

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” A.H
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over” J.G

I see you have great references for your communication technique.
If you have difficulty to understand the initials, i give you a trick, they lived in Germany, and hopefully for mankind survival, are now dead
Are you a kind of fan of this communication style ?

---------------------------------------


I assume you pointed to that???


-----------------------

These are the forum rules:
I do not understand why moderators are so indulgent with you APEX


2.) Conduct must be conducive to sharing ideas and information

2a.) It is never acceptable to insult or attack other members. Disagreement is healthy and beneficial to intelligent discussion but should be based always on ideas and factual information and never degenerate to a personal attack or insult.

A violation of the above may lead to the immediate termination of your login and being banned from the forum permanently at the descretion of the moderator(s). More than one violation will mean the termination of your login and permanent banning from the forum without discussion. If you believe a post constitues an attack against you or other violation, you are always welcome to report this using the "report post" icon on the top right of each post .


And that:

Controlable Pitch Propellers have near disappeared in small size, because it costs much much less to burn a little more fuel than to buy a CPP and all its ancillary items (hollow shaft and all shaft seals, pitch control command, etc ..)
With a CPP, you will still need a clutch and a reduction. You could only save the reverse part of the transmission, ie not much.

...sorry, is wrong!

First point:
we boatbuilders can choose from a wider variety of brands and products today than ever before!
Second:
a CPP does´nt need a clutch! So the last sentence is senseless.

Regards
Richard

[fcfc]

...sorry, is wrong!

First point:
we boatbuilders can choose from a wider variety of brands and products today than ever before!
Second:
a CPP does´nt need a clutch! So the last sentence is senseless.

Regards
Richard

Technically, it does not need a clutch.

But in the context of small cruising boat, at mooring, when charging your batteries from engine alternator , do you want to turn your prop at 0 pitch ?

And in a man overboard maneuvre, the only way to stop your prop from rotating is to stop your engine. I am not sure most people would accept it.

What is acceptable in a big boat may not be acceptable in a small one.

[fcfc]

But
To get 1 Kw from a windmill, you need a monster, one more monster aboard to look at


Have you done a a preliminary sizing ?

Shaft alternator give a typical current from 5A to 10A in best conditions. That's roughly 5% to 10% of 1Kw (83A @ 12V).

So getting 1Kw from water will require a monster, too.

And a fast light boat will probably not accept the additional drag whitout a severe speed down. Which will reduce the power.

[gonzo]

I wrote "controllable pitch propeller" and the search gave me the websites for several manufacturers. Kistine seems to be looking for a conspiracy to bitch about. Read the title of this stupid thread: "Who benefits from the crime?. Stop stalling, write a check and get yourself a CPP.

[kistinie]

Who gets the benefit of the crime is a way of presenting the problem with a little fun, do not take everything on the word. And for you information my astrological sign is the one impossible to catch made for water...Sorry i did not choose
Conspiracy is not adapted, it is just the result of different factors, that all have interest to the extinction of CPP for leisure boats
This doesn't mean it was organised, but only that many independent factors went in the same direction, and it is not for the advantage of the final user
They are several CPP for leisure boat ?
Ok show us a coherent models/prices ...for an average 35 feet sailing boat with 40 Hp engine by example, not for a 2m$/60feet :-)



FcFc
This was about this subject : http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-38.html
Post 562

Aquagene 6 is a poor designed towed propeller that really gives what is claimed

i think the 1 Kw goal should be accessible for a fast powerful multihull going over 15 Knts.
I am working on it, experience will tell me more
Maybe i will only get less, but when i see that a poor aquagen 6 gives over 200W sailing 12 Knts with only 60Lbs drag, i'm optimistic
Anyway... time will tell !

Power/drag ratio is better in air or in water on a sailing boat ? Air is slipping more but i'm not sure it is so simple.
Who knows this ?

And once again, such power is only possible for fast light multihulls not heavy boats

[gonzo]

Your thread name is a very strong statement. I did a quick search and came out with many company names that sell what you claim doesn't exist. Also, by saying "crime", imply some kind of conspiracy. Now you want me to do all the work for you and show "coherent models/prices". Come on, go shopping.

[kistinie]

You claim the product exist for the average joe leisure boat...that i described as 35feet/40 Hp sailing boat

Give one proof, just one !


as used to say my uncle André that was in the army, "trust do not exclude control"

Thanks !

[gonzo]

The average Joe has the sense to buy and outboard. You are looking for a high performance sofisticated piece of equipment. If you want it, is available. Pay up or shut up.

[apex1]

Technically, it does not need a clutch.
But in the context of small cruising boat, at mooring, when charging your batteries from engine alternator , do you want to turn your prop at 0 pitch ?
And in a man overboard maneuvre, the only way to stop your prop from rotating is to stop your engine. I am not sure most people would accept it.
What is acceptable in a big boat may not be acceptable in a small one.

The size of the boat has nothing to do with the sort of propulsion system one installs.
And the average boater has never seen, and will never see a "man over board" maneuvre.
For charging batt.s a main propulsiion engine is not designed!
And if you have a prop turning when mooring, be happy, that is the best you can have! No gearbox is able to respond as fast as a CPP!
So, what is proven to be the best conventional propulsion system on many thousands of ships and boats you must not fear too much!
For example: the most port control and police boats have CPP systems around the world and THEY HAVE quite often to do with "man over board" situations.
As usual: if a boater fears systems it is not related to the systems abilities, but to the boaters experience (better, the lack of). And I think you do´nt have much! Read the article below, to know what a CPP system is.

and:
Your thread name is a very strong statement. I did a quick search and came out with many company names that sell what you claim doesn't exist. Also, by saying "crime", imply some kind of conspiracy. Now you want me to do all the work for you and show "coherent models/prices". Come on, go shopping.

ten points mate!!
But take care, he will call you with bad names, like he does call me, since I refused to deliver figures on his phantasies.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Pay up or shut up.

Woww !!! Keep cool nothing vital behind this !

What a technical demonstration and what a sense of a fair play discussion.
Very impressed !
So nothing new under the stars...No CPP for small power
Notice that i did not talked of price, only of power and boat size...

The last CPP i saw was on an 8.5 metre sailing boat for sale in St Maxime coupled with a lister engine...An average joe sailing boat but if i understand your position it was a kind of marine UPO unidentified propeller object ;-))

[gonzo]

kastenmarine.com
http://www.seaquipment.com
Take out your check book. There was never a lot of CPP in the recreational industry because of the cost and maintenance. At the end, it disappeared because people didn't want to pay for them. You are a good example of it, complaining but not willing to spend the money.

[apex1]

Woww !!! Keep cool nothing vital behind this !
What a technical demonstration and what a sense of a fair play discussion.
Very impressed !
;-))

You never had a sense for fair discussions! The only goal you have is to make your unmature dreams come true! And everyone who refuses to contribute to an issue that is non existent is called your enemy or non supportive. You are mad man!
After some 30 members have named you mad now, you should accept, you are!
Keep your mouth shut, do´nt make idiotic statements and ask others to proof them!

And to stop others from confusing the community, read this:


I. CPP RATIONALE
What Is the Advantage of Controllable Pitch?

There are real advantages provided by Controllable Pitch Propellers (CPP). This article is intended to outline several of the reasons why CPP might be favored for a motor vessel, for a sailing vessel, or for a motor sailor.

For Power Boats

Long Range Cruisers (LRC's) will necessarily carry quite a sizable fuel load, typically some 12% to 15% of the vessel's displacement. With such a highly variable load on a long range trawler yacht or other long distance power vessel, if fitted with a CPP, the pitch can be increased when the vessel is light, and decreased when loaded without having to vary the engine rpm, and will provide maximum use of the engine's power.

When running free with wind and waves 'pushing' you along, the pitch can be made greater in order to properly load the engine. Conversely when headed into the weather, the pitch can be made more fine. Much like shifting into overdrive or second gear, depending on the requirement.

While it is true that a Fixed Pitch Propeller (FPP) can be more efficient than a Controllable Pitch Propeller, it is rarely given that opportunity... The FPP can only be maximally efficient at one rpm with one horsepower input amount and one load condition: i.e. those for which it was specifically designed. At that one rpm and load, the FPP is designed to absorb all the power that the engine can produce. At any other rpm, or any other vessel loading, the FPP cannot operate efficiently, being either over pitched or under pitched.

A correctly sized Controllable Pitch Propeller on the other hand is able to be efficient over a wide rpm range, and over a wide range of vessel loading. This is so because the propeller's pitch can be adjusted as needed in order to absorb all the power that the engine is capable of producing at nearly any rpm.

Even aboard a planing power vessel, one can use a CPP to provide fine pitch and higher rpm to get going, and increased pitch with reduced engine rpm once up to speed. If the vessel has two engines, and speed is to be low, one engine can be dropped out, and its propeller feathered to reduce the drag of the stopped propeller.

The Controllable Pitch arrangement will allow the engine rpm to be varied as needed for the most favorable reduction in engine vibration and noise, as well as to eliminate cavitation.

Finally, there will be no anxiety as with a Fixed Pitch Propeller over whether or not the correct pitch has been calculated for the vessel. As many boaters have discovered, predicting ideal propeller pitch is far from an exact science...! With the wrong fixed pitch propeller, efficiency will be very poor indeed.

With a Controllable Pitch Propeller, you can make pitch adjustments under-way to suit a wide variety of conditions. It is not a difficult matter to choose the appropriate pitch with a CP. One will quickly learn what works best, even without fancy instruments. Once you have sailed with CP, you will be very reluctant to go back to FP -- by comparison FP will suddenly seem rather primitive.

For Sail Boats and Motor Sailors

Should you be traveling aboard a sail boat or motor sailor, it is unquestionably the best arrangement to have a CPP for the sake of accommodating the widely varying engine power requirements, whether under sail or not; whether running free or beating; or whether simply powering.

A further benefit is that some CP units will actually permit fully feathering the blades in order to effectively eliminate prop drag while under sail alone.

Relative Efficiency

If we run at speeds other than that for which a Fixed Pitch Prop has been pitched, the propeller is not being efficient, and we are wasting fuel. It is interesting to note that here in the US where fuel is relatively inexpensive, the Fixed Pitch Propeller is the main stay. In the US, if it costs us a little more per mile to drive our vessels, we have not really taken notice.

While that has been the case for quite some time here in the US, we are seeing big changes in that situation... Now (2008) with fuel prices closing in on USD $4.00 / gallon, any extra fuel used does begin to sting...!

In Europe where fuel is several times the cost in the US, the CPP is much more common. In Scandinavian countries the CPP configuration is nearly universal, and has been so since the beginning of mechanization of their commercial fleets in the early part of the 20th century. In other words, it is extremely well proven and well supported in northern Europe, especially in Scandinavia.

Maneuvering

A CP arrangement does not require a reversing gear--only a reduction gear. Instead of changing the direction of rotation, the blades articulate clear around until they are chewing on the water in the other direction. There is no gnashing of gears, only a smooth transition from ahead to astern thrust, with any choice of the amount of thrust desired, from dead slow to full ahead or astern. It is also possible to use a higher engine rpm and shallow pitch, for example to hold station while applying full power to the hydraulics (anchor windlass, etc.).

What About Damage...?

In the Baltic and in North Sea harbors, ice is common. Still the CP prevails. CP units are designed with the blade being the weaker part. If you damage a blade, it's a simple matter to replace it, and both the shaft and pitch control mechanism are not affected. One can easily carry a spare blade. This protects the propeller hub, the shaft, the coupling, and the transmission from being damaged by a sudden stop or by striking a log or other debris.

In the event of parts being required, parts and spares can be ordered and delivered quickly worldwide. I have phoned an order for parts to Sabb of Norway for example. Parts are shipped right away by air freight and are received within a few days. That's as good as the service I get when ordering parts locally...!

In any case, this technology is nothing new, is robust and well proven... and therefore certainly nothing to be afraid of...!

II. CPP COSTS
Does a CPP Arrangement Cost More...?

To most boat owners, what matters most when considering a CPP installation, whether on a new boat or on a boat that is being re-powered, is usually purchase cost. It might at first glance seem that a Fixed Pitch installation will be less expensive to purchase. After all, isn't it simpler?

What is the real cost difference?

This question is brought up sufficiently often that I have made the following actual cost comparison. In so doing, it's possibly best to make this kind of comparison using equipment that is suited to the requirements of a specific engine. So, let's use the John Deere 6 cylinder turbo as an example: the JD 6068 TFM.

Please bear in mind that the following comparison was made at a given time, using the prevailing costs and exchange rates during early 2001.

Example CPP: Controllable Pitch Propeller Equipment

Sabb HVP 65-E as of 1999 was quoted at 60,000 Norwegian Kronor (NOK), ex works Bergen, Norway. At that time they were quoting a 20% discount for OEM direct orders. The exchange rate during April 2001 was USD $1.00 equals NOK 9.08. This translates to a cost of USD $5,286 assuming the 1999 NOK price did not change much until 2001, and assuming the same OEM direct order discount would still be available.

The completely assembled Helseth 3H-60, having a 60mm shaft, stuffing box, stern bearing, shaft tube, and 660mm diameter 3 blade CPP propeller, at that time was priced at NOK 25,000, with a 20% OEM direct order discount available. This assembly translates to a cost of USD $2,203, ex works, if making the same assumptions.

CPP Whole Shebang: USD $7,489 plus freight of around USD $350 and import brokerage of around USD $50, for a very approximate total of around USD $7,889 with shipping, but without taxes. Bear in mind that this is a 1999 price and is based on a 2001 exchange rate...!

Example FPP: Fixed Pitch Propeller Equipment

The Twin Disc MG-5050, also well suited to the output of the JD 6068 TFM, retails (in 2001) for USD $3,570. A "builder's" 10% OEM discount is sometimes available, so let's use approximately USD $3,213.

A comparable stern gear "assembly" is offered by Vetus and includes shaft, bearing, stuffing box, and shaft tube. Although that would be a fairly good "like for like" comparison, I don't have a price from Vetus for that equipment. However we can instead assemble the pieces one by one, again assuming a 60mm shaft and 3 blade 660mm prop (around 26 inches), and taking the retail prices (actual researched prices as of 2001):


* Coupling: $0.00 (usually supplied with gear)
* Shaft: Aquamet 22 approx: USD $1,500
* Machining on Shaft (Both Ends): approx: USD $500
* Prop: 26" 3 blade Ni Br Al prop (comparable to the Sabb / Helseth alloy): approx USD $1,900
* Bronze Sleeved Cutless Bearing: approx USD $200
* Stuffing Box: Varies, so assume approximately USD $400
* Bronze Stern Tube Materials: 5' x 3" OD x 0.25" wall: USD $180
* Machining on Stern Tube: Approx USD $400
* Flange Fabricated on Stern Tube: Approx USD $350


From the above, the tail shaft "assembly" amounts to a total of around USD $5,500, and the Twin Disc MG-5050 Gear comes to around USD $3,213. This gives the following total:

FPP Whole Shebang: USD $8,713 without any shipping or taxes. The FPP costs given here are using current (April 2001) quotes from suppliers and machinists in the Seattle area, and using materials of equal quality to the Sabb / Helseth system.

A Few Comments

The above cost figures have factored in the miscellaneous goodies, the machining and the fabricating required to create an "equivalent" system in terms quality, and in terms of the self enclosed type of shaft arrangement offered by Sabb / Helseth. Of course one could argue that a Manganese bronze propeller with an ordinary stainless shaft in a non-self-enclosed shaft tube will be less costly, but then we would not be comparing "like for like" in terms of quality and components.

The above cost comparison was made at a given moment in time, using prevailing exchange rates of that time (2001). Of course exchange rates have changed, but so have local costs in the US. I have been told that several of the above mentioned prices have increased over the years, however if we adjust the above figures for present day exchange rates and similarly adjust for the increased costs of a comparable FPP installation, the overall comparison will in all likelihood still show approximate parity.

Doesn't a CPP system cost more to install...?

No! It consists of a gear box and a self-enclosed shaft assembly. We encounter no end of completely unwarranted whining from boat builders who are unfamiliar with CPP equipment. Consider the following:

* Mounting the gear box is in no way different than mounting a similar FPP gear and makes use of the same SAE flywheel housing sizes, etc. Zero difference.
* Mounting the self-enclosed shaft assembly is actually easier. Why...? Because the entire shaft, shaft log, stern bearing and stuffing gland are supplied as a unit, one which is already matched to the propeller and to the shaft coupling. In other words, there is less labor involved in the installation, less coordinating of parts, and overall considerably less fooling around with it all. It is simply a matter of arranging for the shaft log to be isolated from the structure (in the case of a metal boat), or mount it directly (in the case of a GRP boat), or bore a hole for it (in the case of a wooden boat). This could not be simpler.
* Once again, the advantage goes to the CPP assembly.


III. CPP SOURCES

One should note that there are several CPP arrangements available from a variety of manufacturers.

Sabb Motor is now called Frydenb� Sabb Motor AS (name changed in 2008). Several years ago, the last remaining Sabb engines were discontinued, and replaced with a range of Lister Alpha engines having a power rating up to 50hp, and IVECO engines in larger sizes. For small boats, the Lister / Sabb / Helseth combination is an improvement over the prior Sabb engine offerings in many ways, primarily due to the Lister engines being half the weight, and also being less tall compared to the Sabb engines, making the Lister engines a much easier fit. Sabb has re-focused their business on the manufacture of CPP marine gears, available for engines of 10 hp to around 300 hp.

Up to 30 hp or so, Sabb provides the HVP-25 which makes use of a solid shaft, with a Sabb manufactured propeller and stern tube assembly. Above 30 hp, the Sabb CPP gear offerings operate a concentric shaft, and Helseth is the shaft and propeller supplier. Helseth also supplies the complete shaft / log / propeller assembly. The Helseth range includes quite large vessels, as well as high speed CPP equipment.

Hundested equipment is made in Denmark and is of extraordinary quality. The Hundested propeller assemblies make use of a concentric shaft arrangement just like the Helseth equipment, and it is therefore 100% compatible with the larger Sabb gear offerings. A Hundested installation can alternately make use of a standard reduction gear combined with a Hundested CP 'control box' in the drive line (rather than a 'servo' type of marine reduction gear). Hundested offers a variety of sizes and types of pitch control boxes: manual, electric, or hydraulic. For installations above 300 horsepower Hundested offers a CP servo pitch controlling gear from Mekanord. In still larger sizes the gear will be manufactured by Hundested.

Another excellent CP gear and propeller assembly maker from Norway whose offerings extend into somewhat larger sizes is Nogva Motorfabrikk. Nogva CP marine gears are available for installations of from 50 hp to 680 hp. Larger CP gear models also include dual hydraulic PTO, intended for heavy duty use in the North Sea fisheries. Nogva also manufactures their own line of 3-blade CP propellers, available with grease, oil or water lubricated shaft assemblies as we've described above. Yet another option available from Nogva is an in-line shaft hydraulic servo pitch control, much like the offering from Hundested. The in-line servo pitch control box allows the use of CP propeller and shaft assembly with a standard marine gear (such as Twin Disc or ZF).

West Mekan Produksjon is yet another Norwegian manufacturer specializing in propeller and shaft assemblies that are compatible with the gear offerings from Sabb and Nogva. West Mekan also makes a variety of CP servo pitch control boxes, allowing their propeller / shaft assemblies to be installed with a standard marine gear. As with Hundested, the West Mekan pitch control units are offered in mechanical, electric, or hydraulic models.

A variety of large vessel marine gear offerings are available from ZF, which offers a line of CP gears extending upwards into Mega-Yacht and even cargo vessel sizes... In fact, in the very large vessel sizes there are numerous other manufacturers of CP propellers.

Our specific challenge has been to assemble good information about CP equipment in the relatively smaller vessel sizes, accommodating up to approximately 700 horsepower.

IV. CPP CONTACT INFORMATION

Contact information for the above-mentioned manufacturers is as follows:


Nogva Motorfabrikk A.S.
N-6280 S�vik
Norway
www.nogva.no
+47 70 20 84 00
+47 70 20 84 10
firmapost@nogva.no
Mr. Kjell Norvoll


Helseth A.S.
Bakliveien 11-13
6450 Hjelset
Norway
www.helseth.no
Telephone : +47 71 20 29 00
Fax : +47 71 20 29 01
helseth@helseth.no


Hundested Propeller A.S.
Stadionvej 4
DK-3390 Hundested
DENMARK
www.hundestedpropeller.dk
Telephone +45 47 93 71 17
Fax: +45 47 93 99 02
Mogens Christensen (mogens@hundestedpropeller.dk) is helpful and very knowledgeable about CPP installations for all kinds of craft.


Frydenb� Sabb Motor AS
Post Box 7170
5020 Bergen, Norway
www.sabb.no
www.frydenbosabb.no
Phone:+47 55 34 88 00
Fax: + 47 55 34 88 01
General Inquiries: post.sabb@frydenboe.no
Tor Isdahl, Sales: tor.isdahl@frydenboe.no


West Mekan Produksjon AS
Malakoff 3
N-6770 Nordfjordeid
NORWAY
www.west-mekan.no
office@west-mekan.no
Konrad Skibenes: konrad@west-mekan.no Tel : +47 57 88 51 50. Fax : +47 57 88 51 51
Kjell Steins�ker: kjell@west-mekan.no Tel : +47 57 88 51 53

V. CPP TECHNIQUE
The "Basic Technique" Of Controllable Pitch Propellers...

Keep in mind that the technique I am about to describe is only possible to use in combination with a pyrometer in order to monitor the actual load on the engine. The reason for the pyro is that most marine engines can be overloaded and will therefore require that you monitor the exhaust temperature carefully using a pyrometer, which makes it possible to accurately gauge engine output.

At first a CP installation will seem to offer far too many choices... There are too many variables..! How can one choose the correct pitch or rpm..? After a bit of experience however, one will soon discover in a general way what works best in terms of the desired rpm and a range of pitch settings that work for the speed and weather conditions. The process is really fairly simple.

Once an operator becomes a little more familiar with their CP installation, the rpm and pitch that favors a given condition, vessel loading, or speed through the water will be virtually automatic. Prior to that, the pitch and engine loading can be roughly dialed in as follows:

* Select the pitch that seems appropriate to the requirements of the situation (by experimentation and recording or remembering the results of prior times).
* Increase the throttle to raise the engine rpm until there is no further gain in rpm.
* Allow the vessel to come to speed with the power being applied until equilibrium is reached.
* At that point, vary the throttle setting to be sure rpm is at its maximum for that pitch setting.
* Back off the throttle until you hear the engine lose a few rpm, then nudge the throttle back up to or just under maximum achievable rpm for that pitch.
* At this point, the engine is powering the propeller at its maximum ability, and no 'extra' fuel is being fed to the engine.
* Monitor the pyrometer to assure that the engine exhaust temperature does not exceed the manufacturer's recommendation.
* If the pyro reading is too high, just back off the throttle until the temperature is within tolerance.

Ideally, this will be within the preferred engine rpm range (the sweet spot) for the speed or conditions. If the pitch is too heavy for the weather conditions or the vessel load condition, there will probably be audible cavitation. Pitch should be set well clear of the cavitation range, i.e. more shallow. If the pitch is too shallow, the engine will not be loaded by the propeller and will run right up to its maximum rpm. In either case, make the requisite pitch adjustments until all is well. If conditions change (wind, weather, motor-sailing, etc.) then another series of nudges to the throttle are made to be sure you are not overloading the engine.

If the pitch is too heavy for the throttle setting (i.e. more throttle than the achievable rpm warrants) there will possibly be a darker exhaust smoke. With a pyrometer the exhaust temperature will begin to exceed the engine maker's published limits, and the throttle must be backed off.

In my own 34' schooner Emerald I installed a Sabb engine, which had an integral 2:1 gear with built-in CP control, etc. With the Sabb heavy duty slow turning motors, it is not necessary to use a pyrometer as a guide. It is sufficient to listen to both propeller and engine, and nudge the throttle until it is right. Per the Sabb manual's instructions, black exhaust smoke is an indication of excessive engine overloading.

It is far better to use the "nudge" technique described above for the throttle / rpm setting, rather than the exhaust color. This technique will quickly get you a workable preliminary throttle setting. Keep in mind though that for modern-day engines, even the "nudge" technique is not a sufficiently refined indicator for fine tuning the pitch or the throttle setting, and the pyrometer reading must be consulted.

The above-described technique is primarily used for familiarization with the CP equipment. With the pyro readings, one can gauge the load on the engine precisely. Using these techniques, and by listening to the engine and the propeller, eventually you'll know what's 'right' among the large variety of settings possible, i.e. in an intuitive way that does not rely on anything more than your senses and your common sense.

Of course all of the above is not to say that you must run the engine at its full capacity all the time...! For example, if the engine is idling you can vary the pitch as needed for the perfect salmon trolling speed... If the engine is charging a battery or running a refrigeration compressor or a water maker, you can back off the pitch some in order to allow the engine to propel the boat at maximum efficiency while still using full engine power.

VI. FINAL THOUGHTS

We have reviewed a simple cost-comparison case to illustrate the economics as well as the overall rationale that drive our recommendations in favor of a CPP installation, whether for a motor sailor or for a passagemaking power vessel. An added benefit is that the CPP system will be more efficient in use, and will be much more adaptable to variable vessel loadings, weather, maneuvering, or sail-assist situations. With these advantages the economics in favor of a CPP system become yet more compelling.

With a Fixed Pitch Propeller (FPP) system, once it is installed you will inevitably find yourself in an unknown situation in terms of whether the pitch has actually been calculated correctly for your vessel. In an alarmingly large number of cases it will not be. Therefore, in order to make a thoroughly fair cost comparison, one really should factor in the probable added costs of a second or third haulout and re-pitching ceremony...!

This would never be necessary with CPP equipment.

These thoughts are not meant to deprecate the excellent FPP equipment available. They are rather an attempt to encourage an open mind when making this choice during the course of a new vessel design, as well as to encourage the same on the part of builders who oddly are often too rigidly stuck in their ways to consider new (actually old) or unfamiliar technology...

Copyright 1998 to 2008 Michael Kasten


Regards
Richard

[apex1]

kastenmarine.com
http://www.seaquipment.com
Take out your check book. There was never a lot of CPP in the recreational industry because of the cost and maintenance. At the end, it disappeared because people didn't want to pay for them. You are a good example of it, complaining but not willing to spend the money.

Gonzo, there is no real difference in cost! See the article by Michael above!
And they did not disappear! The industry installs more CPP systems today on recreational craft than ever before!
Impressively you pointed towards the same designers comments while I was typing my offense.
Regards
Richard

[KnottyBuoyz]

I had thought Vetus made a CPP systems for small boats. I looked in their most recent catalog and it's not there anymore.

[kistinie]

Apex...97 post to make you share informations and give answers to a simple question.
This makes me think to amateur race engine builders hiding their small secrets on camshaft timing or head grinding when i used to race.
What a hard work...But after all only the result counts.
Thank you for this constructive position
if i could edit my N° 1 post i would add an advice to go to N°97 directly !

Now nothing is finished, the next fight, will be to find a light simple CPP that fits a 20 to 30 Kw engine and get an invoice :D
Do you have an idea of the lightest CPP available today or do i have to pay with the sweat of 97 more post :-)
No i'm joking, that too much unpleasant, i will keep on without your help.

[gonzo]

The cost of purchase is moderately higher. The maintenance cost is the issue. Most boaters neglect their boats, specially what they can't see (underwater :)). I think the build up of marine growth will cause problems to the average owner.

[kistinie]

Neglecting maintenance is very expensive, that is true
i drive old reliable cars (40 to 50 years) with grease nipples everywhere for 20 years without significant break...but to the cost of 10 minutes grease pause every 2000Km

Prevention rather than cure

[apex1]

Apex...97 post to make you share informations and give answers to a simple question.


Learn to read, learn to follow advice (not only here, thats valid for all of your childish threads).
And do´nt ask the professionals to get, or provide, quotations for a unmature idea! And before your question arises: I build more yachts in one year than you probably have been aboard in your whole life. And that was told to you at least
two times in the past (not by me).
most was answered here on page one!

The statement that CPP disappeared is not right. The opposite is correct! There are more CPP manufacturers today than we had in the 60´s. Most of them are mentioned above, but do´nt forget "Maxprop" and "Gori" for the low power (or sailing) range; and "Piening" and "ZF" for higher outputs.
We install mainly Hundested in our displacement boats.
The often heared statement that these systems are expensive is definetily wrong! In a fair price comparison you´ll find a CPP installation is as cheap (or expensive) as a conventional gearbox and drivetrain of the same quality. Boatbuilders often compare the cheapest available gearbox, shaft and prop with the high end Scandinavian CPP installation and find a noticeable difference then. Naturally....
Edited: I just found an old calc.(2005) and the difference was 2.300€ per drivetrain (CPP above the gearbox), but that was on a 36mtr. and each engine was about 180.000€. So I do´nt call that a difference.
The whole Scandinavian fishing fleet uses CPP only! And we all know that fishermen have no money to waste.
The main advantage of a CPP is the fact that you allways operate your Diesel on a perfect load setting, that gives the most efficient consumption and keeps your engine happy.
Fast Fred, it is not the question how often you have to go uphill in a force 10 storm. But if your yacht crosses the Atlantic at 50% power setting or just the pond from Ibiza to Mallorca at 85% makes a huge difference. And that is everyday use on larger displ. yachts.
Regards
Richard

and
The cost of purchase is moderately higher. The maintenance cost is the issue. Most boaters neglect their boats, specially what they can't see (underwater :)). I think the build up of marine growth will cause problems to the average owner.

I do not see that. And that is not in line with my experience, neither for the cost of puchase, nor for maintenance.
Regards
Richard

[TollyWally]

Apex,
Thank you very much for the interesting post on the cpp units cost. In my limited experience Norwegian marine items and fishing equiptment are usually well engineered and well made. Most definietely food for thought, again thanks.

[kistinie]

you can thank.... Michael Kasten http://www.kastenmarine.com/CPprops.htm



The question was CPP for leisure boat (not billionnaire boats)
Here i will post the answers about 30Kw CPP, if i get more than one positive answer i will be lucky



Hello sir.
Sorry but we do made so small CP propellers.
Best regards / med venlig hilsen
HUNDESTED PROPELLER A/S

[apex1]

Apex,
Thank you very much for the interesting post on the cpp units cost. In my limited experience Norwegian marine items and fishing equiptment are usually well engineered and well made. Most definietely food for thought, again thanks.

They are amongst the best available (the Danish and German are as good).
Regards
Richard

Kistinie
Hundested is in Denmark.
And Wally said thanks for MY cost related post. Not Michael Kastens comparison. Which btw. I pointed you towards in another thread.

[mydauphin]

Kistinie,

People don't build things in case you want to buy them. Then the cost of building one unit is increase for all the ones you didn't buy.
Also they want money upfront because they don't want to build something and then you change your mind and they are screwed.
So in the real world, take out your credit card, or send a wire transfer and anything can be built. But not for free, or little money.

The people who invested millions in equipment won't build something for little money. In my little business, I have come to conclusion that if a job is much under $10,000, I don't make a profit. So I don't give price breaks below $10,000 . Sometimes if job is problematic, I pass on it. It is not that I am rich and sometimes I could use money, but experience has taught me the hard way it isn't worth. I rather stay home or work on my boat.

So when you say I want someone to build a small CPP for Me. Get real they have better things to do with their time and money. So you have to pay more if you want them to do it. It is not a conspiracy it is economics 101.

I have same problem with thrust block. All the big ships have them, I can't find a small one at a small price. I am going to have to make it myself and it is not easy since I don't have machine shop

[apex1]

I have same problem with thrust block. All the big ships have them, I can't find a small one at a small price. I am going to have to make it myself and it is not easy since I don't have machine shop

Did you mean thrust bearing? Then look here:

http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=hggds#/page186/

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Kistinie,

People don't build things in case you want to buy them. Then the cost of building one unit is increase for all the ones you didn't buy.
Also they want money upfront because they don't want to build something and then you change your mind and they are screwed.
So in the real world, take out your credit card, or send a wire transfer and anything can be built. But not for free, or little money.

The people who invested millions in equipment won't build something for little money. In my little business, I have come to conclusion that if a job is much under $10,000, I don't make a profit. So I don't give price breaks below $10,000 . Sometimes if job is problematic, I pass on it. It is not that I am rich and sometimes I could use money, but experience has taught me the hard way it isn't worth. I rather stay home or work on my boat.

So when you say I want someone to build a small CPP for Me. Get real they have better things to do with their time and money. So you have to pay more if you want them to do it. It is not a conspiracy it is economics 101.

I have same problem with thrust block. All the big ships have them, I can't find a small one at a small price. I am going to have to make it myself and it is not easy since I don't have machine shop

Little money, big money...Ah yes i think i see what you mean...it is just like in the cost accounting i learned for 3 years and did for 15 years on the project i was managing.
10K you said...
I have received an offer for a CCP and pump under 4K€ without VAT
I'm now waiting for the technical data, weight...

[apex1]

What is a CCP ?

[kistinie]

just a keyboard mistake :) ....Sorry !
CPP of course !

[apex1]

And now? Do you call that expensive? Are you still of the same opinion that the CPP systems cost much more than a conventional installation?

[mydauphin]

Did you mean thrust bearing? Then look here:

http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=hggds#/page186/

Regards
Richard

No , Take a look at these links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust_block
http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/products/bearings_seals/shaft.jsp
http://www.michellbearings.com/product/marine.htm

Every large ship has one. I just need two for 2 3/4 inch shaft

They take load from shaft to boat without going into transmission thrust bearing.
On a large boat the amount of force on transmission is enormous thus requiring engine mounts to be hard. With a thrust block it takes thrust and alignment then engine can be mounted with flexible shaft and softer mounts to allow less vibration and noise.

[kistinie]

And now? Do you call that expensive? Are you still of the same opinion that the CPP systems cost much more than a conventional installation?

Expensive, yes, rather as 4K€ for a propeller to put behind a 5 to 6K€ engine, is a lot of money, at least for me and 90% of the planet, and i think that if it was much more massively produced price could go down for 30 to 50%.
Now it is not a rocket price unreachable for my project and the service it will bring.

Results:
7 quotations asked for light under 20Kw CPP:

1 positive answer but till now not a single technical info about it
3 negatives
3 did not answered


Is the product easily available. No

[apex1]

No , Take a look at these links.

Every large ship has one. I just need two for 2 3/4 inch shaft

They take load from shaft to boat without going into transmission thrust bearing.
On a large boat the amount of force on transmission is enormous thus requiring engine mounts to be hard. With a thrust block it takes thrust and alignment then engine can be mounted with flexible shaft and softer mounts to allow less vibration and noise.

Yes, you are talking about a thrust bearing!
Blocks they are called in larger sizes only. And the navy or merchant vessel needs such block because they have no gearbox. In case of your yacht, the gearbox handles the thrust, you dont need a additional bearing. And the flexible coupling I pointed to, is just there to distribute the load even.
I install the big MAN 1700hp engines without thrust bearings! But with proper sized gear and coupling naturally.
Regards
Richard

Kistinie
that: >>>>>>>Expensive, yes, rather as 4K€ for a propeller to put behind a 5 to 6K€ engine, is a lot of money<<<<<<<
was again a very unmature statement, as usual.
Where do you buy just a propeller? You buy a CPP system! That includes a prop. But you would have to buy a shaft, gear, prop and bearings for the conventional arrangement too! So, in a fair comparison it is NOT expensive, as mentioned 20 times before. You are unwilling to compare fair, it does´nt fit your prejudice.

[kistinie]

Not immature statement but facts...as usual:
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1208216/Nettoloehne_auf_tiefstem_Stand_seit_20_Jahren.html

So 3 month of net average german income to buy the cheapest CPP propeller, is... expensive.
Are you on the same planet than the 6 billion others ?

[apex1]

Not immature statement but facts...as usual:
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1208216/Nettoloehne_auf_tiefstem_Stand_seit_20_Jahren.html
So 3 month of net average german income to buy the cheapest CPP propeller, is... expensive.


Learn reading and math´s. dumbass. 33105 ./. 12 = 2758.75 € thats the average labourers income in Germany!
And then you compare prices for yacht equipment with average labourers income...?

[kistinie]

Learn reading and math´s. dumbass. 33105 ./. 12 = 2758.75 € thats the average labourers income in Germany!
And then you compare prices for yacht equipment with average labourers income...?

Open disrespect and lies...As usual.

you do not pay taxes on your income and VAT... Lucky Germans ! Or may be, you use quantum German maths, that are not the same ?
2758 € average per individual, per month net income ! Whow i will go to Germany and i will work without eating only 2 months to get the cheapest CPP

Maths and thinking:
For us here in France, a country in development average gross income in only 2400€, but here we pay our taxes, so 2400 gross x0.7 to get it net - 100 income tax = 1580€, so it is 3 months of net income to get it, as i said, to paid the 3800 plus 20% VAT = 4600€

And yes, i compare prices for yacht equipment with average labourers income...
Why, boating, should be a upper class "privilege" only ?
Nice conception of life. Its is always a 'pleasure' to read this kind of statements, no doubt that we will have a better world with this spirit !
i suggest you have a look to this about poor sailing on inexpensive boat with punk and tramp sailors ;-)
http://voilepourave.over-blog.com/

[singleprop]

As far as I know a thrust bearing cannot be installed in a traditional way on a CPP because of the hollow shaft and push/pull rod. Therefore, the thrust bearing must be installed in the gear itself (such as on the SABB 65E).

Doesn't this mean that the gearbox must be hard mounted/boltet onto the engine bed to absorbe the thrust.. and that a soft coupling is required between the gear and the engine (allowing the engine to be soft mounted)?

Sorry for the thread drift

[TollyWally]

That's not thread drift :) Thats a damn good question.

[kistinie]

That's not thread drift :) Thats a damn good question.

Bearing for a light 20 Kw CPP ?
But it is a good question !
A drawing or a picture will speak ...if you have..

[apex1]

As far as I know a thrust bearing cannot be installed in a traditional way on a CPP because of the hollow shaft and push/pull rod. Therefore, the thrust bearing must be installed in the gear itself (such as on the SABB 65E).
Doesn't this mean that the gearbox must be hard mounted/boltet onto the engine bed to absorbe the thrust.. and that a soft coupling is required between the gear and the engine (allowing the engine to be soft mounted)?
Sorry for the thread drift

I agree with Tolly thats not a drift.
But first to say: "mydauphin" was not asking for a thrust bearing for CPP! He has a conventional installation (as far as I understood from his former posts on other threads).
But CPP or shaft and gear, we do not need a thrust bearing at the usual level of power we install. The Gearbox handles the load. A flexible coupling should be installed between shaft and gearb. (Even a CPP comes with a "gearbox" ,like the mentioned Sabb).
The "soft" mounting of our engines is not very soft and handles the load with ease if of the right size. I said above, I install 12cyl, 22ltr. MAN of 1700hp without having a thrust bearing.

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

Yes it is a conventional install, no cpp. I can't afford not one but two.

The reason for thrust block is to take pressure off cv joints so they will last longer. The CV joints help with alignment issues.

[apex1]

Yes it is a conventional install, no cpp. I can't afford not one but two.

The reason for thrust block is to take pressure off cv joints so they will last longer. The CV joints help with alignment issues.

Fot that reason the Bullflex is good. Or do you point to a CV of these:

CV Curriculum Vitae
CV Cove (street abbreviation)
CV Constant Velocity
CV Cape Verde (Country)
CV Coventry (postcode, United Kingdom)
CV Cultivar
CV Coefficient of Variation
CV Cablevisión (Argentina)
CV Commercial Vehicle
CV Control Valve
CV Composite Video
CV Convair (aircraft manufacturer)
CV Cross Validation
CV Computer Video (electronic representation of the PANTONE colors)
CV Convenience Store
CV Crown Victoria (Ford Motor Company autombile model)
CV Constant Voltage
CV Castlevania (game)
CV Check Valve
CV Contingent Valuation (method for measuring compensatory restoration of natural resources)
CV Clear View
CV Computer Virus
CV Control Voltage (music synthesis)
CV Conduction Velocity
CV Castro Valley (California)
CV Cardio-Vascular
CV Color Vision
CV Cash Value
CV Consonant Vowel
CV Control Volume
CV Configuration Variable (used in digital command and control of model railroads)
CV Cost Variance
CV Cargo Van
CV Cataclysmic Variable
CV Calorific Value
CV Coachella Valley (California)
CV Commanditaire Vennootschap (Dutch: Limited Partnership)
CV Courvoisier (cognac)
CV Code Violations
CV Count Value
CV Republic of Cape Verde
CV Combat Vehicle
CV Vice Commander (USAF)
CV ComputerVision (CAD/CAM software company)
CV Capacitance-Voltage (measurements)
CV Carrier Variant (aircraft with modifications to permit operations to/from aircraft carriers)
CV Coding Violation (telecommunications)
CV Commercial Venture
CV Chrome Vanadium (steel)
CV Critical Vulnerability
CV Cleaning Validation
CV Cervical Vertebrae
CV Capital Variable (Spanish business entity)
CV Cheval Vapeur (French: horsepower)
CV Command Vehicle
CV Casino Vérité (gaming software)
CV Character Voice
CV Cultivated Variety (botany)
CV Conventional Vehicle
CV Cavalli Vapore (Italian: horsepower)
CV Choking Victim
CV Catalog Value
CV Computer Validation
CV Compliance Verification
CV Central Vermont Railway
CV Campus Village
CV Ciudad Vieja (Guatemala city)
CV Cross of Valour (Canadian decoration equivalent of the George Cross, second highest bravery decoration after the VC)
CV Continuous Vulcanization
CV Cartell-Verband (Burschenschaft mit Katholisch-konservativen werten)
CV Multi-purpose aircraft carrier (US Navy ship type)
CV Child Version (psychological testing)
CV Cyclic Voltametry
CV Caballo Vapor (Spanish)
CV Central Version
Cv Coefficient of Flow (fluid flow calculations)
CV Cargo Variant
CV Collection Voucher
CV Concordant Version (translation of the New Testament by A.E. Knoch)
CV Common Ventricle
CV Complete Adventurer (roleplaying games, Dungeons & Dragons)
CV Contribution Value
CV Circus Voltaire (pinball game)
CV Conceptual Value (marketing)
CV Crossbone Vanguard (anime)
CV Cavite Varsitarian
CV Schedule V Controlled Substance (USA)
CV Colossus Voulge (Diablo II gaming)
CV Ceiling Void (structural drawings)
CV Cranioventral (anatomy)
CV Chemical Vocabulary
CV Challenge Valley (activity, Camp Yawgoog, BSA)
CV Container Vacuum
CV Cryoglobulinemia Vasculitis
CV Carrier Volplane (Fixed Wing)
CV Carrier, General Purpose (US Navy)
CV Clandestine Vulnerability
CV Cache Verification
CV Chariot Ventures, LLC (Hong Kong)
CV Control Vertices Curve (form of NURBS)
CV Cras Ves'pere (tomorrow evening)

????
The red one is my personal favorite, I doubt a thrust bearing would be a good idea though.

Regards
Richard

[mydauphin]

HA HA Apex...

CV .... Constant velocity joint
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant-velocity_joint
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_joint#Double_Cardan_Shaft

[apex1]

So, I guessed right, the Bullflex is what you need (flex, not sh.t)!

[mydauphin]

Vetus Bullflex can not handle bigger shafts, angle larger than 2 degree and still transmits thrust to transmission. I don't want that. What I am looking for is closer to Python drive or Aquadrive.

[kistinie]

Sweet gentlemens, please open a new thread for bearing ;)

Here it is for CPP that are not available for leisure boat

By the way, always no technical description for the only offer i received
For the moment a price, just one number...
Incredible !
After all i will finish to keep my money and find another solution

[apex1]

The title and content of this thread are so senseless, we could´nt go offtopic if we talk about potatoe harvest.

And mydauphin, 2° means half of your engine is already besides the boat!

[kistinie]

The title and content of this thread are so senseless, we could´nt go offtopic if we talk about potatoe harvest.
boat!

potatoe harvest ? Are you talking of you ?

I think more and more that CPP are unavailable to consumers for the same reason than Gillier PANTONE Water motors.

To press much better the lemons

[mydauphin]

Apex, this thread is misaligned... It needs a universal cardan shaft...


kistinie, Hybrid corsair .... Jet airplanes are unavailable for consumers, so are fancy cars, jet packs, helicopters and most yachts. I am no upset that new diesels engines cost more than I make in a year. I buy used. It is a yacht and not everyone can just write a check. 99.99% of the people that work on boats, design then and are on this board can't afford everything they want.

Grow up, or move to a country that will give you free boat parts.

[Landlubber]

Have a look here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgQgm3GwaFs

http://www.thompsoncouplings.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

[mydauphin]

Thanks Land,

I don't have problem with joint, I Have this...
I need thrust block to take force because Joints won't.
Something like a Arneson Surface Drive has what I am talking about inside, so does and inboard transmission or the leg of an outdrive.

[Landlubber]

Absolutely, all CV, Cardan shaft etc etc need a thrust block installed.