these turbine alternaters are easy to make

[Boston]

I was thinking with all the alternative energy sources coming along that it would be an interesting study to consider how to apply one of em to this old Elco

what came to mind was the turbine wind generators
they are compact and work in light airs

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg


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these guys have all the bits and pieces
http://www.windbluepower.com/

so naturally I was doing some day dreaming about trying to figure out if a series of counter rotating sections could be aesthetically applied to this vessel

the system would be an augmentation to the onboard generators

a few considerations would be

spinning sections opposite one another you obviously get twice the speed in the alternators although you could just gear things and forgo the technical difficulties

placing them in a vertical position is self aligning to the wind
but placing them horizontally allows for counter rotating segments which give more power if aligned to the wind correctly

this is the power output of the unit that costs about $160.oo for the innards and you can junk yard all the housings you want ( they are everywhere )

http://www.windbluepower.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/dc540chart.jpg

counter rotating has the advantage of working with half the wind speed
and keeps the center of gravity low
also you can balance the torque out
but it would need to be on a swiveling base and have a wind vein like tail

the vertical unit needs no swiveling base and no tail but would need to have a larger diameter in order to "skinny" up the sections and keep the center of gravity low ( less aesthetically pleasing ) but may also be able to counter rotate as long as the rigs not to tall
both could be hidden under the canopy when in harbor and the canopy folded back when under way to allow the best air to the turbines

wind deflectors could enhance performance but would depend on were the units would be installed

pleasantly distracting considerations
any input is more than welcome

my first thoughts on this is that three vertical single generators could be placed behind the wheel house and under the canopy making for the most aesthetically appealing configuration that needs no directional adjustment or at least little as long as the wind is not directly ahead

my second thought is to have counter rotating sections spinning horizontally lengthwise in the same location on the boat
this would have obvious limitations based on its inability to orient itself to the best wind but allows for the most sections

another thought is to place six smaller vertical systems on the "roof" ( less visually appealing )

another would be to place two horizontal set ups on the "roof" and have them on a swiveling base ( way less visually appealing )

all units can easily be magnetically suspended for efficiency

have fun with it
B

oh Ill try and find the power requirement of this vessel in kilowatt hours at moderate hull speed and add it in when I find it
not sure yet what they had originally but a rebuild was fitted with two 230 hp diesels

[FAST FRED]

What would the operation plan be?? 1 hour of operation , anchor for a couple of weeks and go another hour?

FF

[Steve W]

I think it would be easier to hide a bunch of thin solar panels up on that flat top.Gorgeous boat by the way,what size is it?, it looks bigger than the 42.
Steve.

[kistinie]

I think it would be easier to hide a bunch of thin solar panels up on that flat top.Gorgeous boat by the way,what size is it?, it looks bigger than the 42.
Steve.

100% for solar panels mainly.
Roof is made for this, this is a real chance

Also, in my mind, this kind of "savonius" rotor are not very efficient unless they use sophisticated blades ?

Anyway, nice boat !

[Boston]

the plan is to augment the electrical generating capacity with a more environmentally friendly system
the top could certainly be converted to solar cells but they are pricey and heavy = more roll
the vawt turbines are cheep to build and cheep to repair also they are lots more efficient than normal wind generators and lightweight

that is the elco 57
one of my favorites and looks like its begging for solar cells and a few wind generators to augment the systems powered generators

Red you must have missed this part

the system would be an augmentation to the onboard generators

the generator pictured in the drive way is rated at 2,500 watts at
I think it was 50 amps

that boat is not really built for serious off shore time if you ask me
one good wave and all that glass is gone
most of the time a pleasure vessel is sitting in port anyway
so why not take advantage of a nice breeze and spin up some electricity
without making to much noise like typical wind generators

heres the 10KW low wind version

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small enough to be gracefully hidden under the canopy and quiet
and
they are cheep and easy to build with the real trick in the magnetically suspended squirrel cage
with four or more of those over the aft cabin space you might get a free hour or two out of each cruse
and in a pinch
ye you could drift along knowing you weren't actually out of fuel

been doing some real day dreaming about that boat
wood only cost is about 15,000
engine and drive train and electronics ?
it would be twin electrics with twin diesel generators and about two dozen batteries

[kistinie]

they are cheep and easy to build with the real trick in the magnetically suspended squirrel cage


Do you mean construction plan can be found easily and that they are not too sensitive to weight balancing of the turbine blades ?

[Boston]

you would need to balance the blades but they are easy as hell to build
its a squirrel cage mounted on a axis between a few ring magnets
easy as pie
a few roller bearings later to keep the thrust off the inside edge of the magnets and you got a wind generator

add those wind directors you see in some of the videos and you increase the efficiency by about another thirty percent
they are non directional so are unaffected by changes in wind direction that would virtually stop a conventional unit and you can get the high efficiency guts for the alternator housing at windblue or bluewind something like that
the link is in an earlier post
you can build a dam nice one for about five hundred if you wanted to go all out
and if you really wanted to get silly you could try the counter rotating one
but gearing that one up is a little more complex

there is also a tulip design
lots of room for creativity

there are videos of the hole process if you go look

way cheaper than solar cells and completely serviceable as well

[Boston]

so lets get things back on track
this old boat has some real appeal

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg

its an old Elco 57

this ones been converted to diesel but the originals were electric

the thing is that most of the time pleasure boats just float in dock
so while they're there why not spin up some electricity and take that free hour or so of cruising
and have that luxury of never really running out of gas

so what alternative source could be used to juice this thing up when just sitting round
whats better solar wind or wave
my two cents is wind and after that its wind turbine generators
the suggestion of solar was made but that's expensive and not real serviceable ( also get dammaged in hail storms )

we need a few parameters to realize the scope of the need
the Warp 9 electric motor is a common cheep ( relatively ) conversion motor for do it yourself conversions of the chevy S10
hears the stats

http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_16_WarP_9_SpreadSheet.jpg

so ideally you would want to run the thing at about 174 amps 72 volts
and for that boat you would need two motors
RR and Elco had several things in common one being they were both gutless wonders
the motor costs about $1800 each
the diesels that got put into the rebuild of the boat pictured were 230 hp each
at a cost of I think around 4,000 each but thats a guess
I didnt go look it up

there is another option of instead of two smaller motors one larger motor
the warp 11 but that thing just eats amperage and its $3500

http://www.go-ev.com/images/003_20_WarP_11_SpreadSheet.jpg

so Red has got a point about power requirements
but
every little bit helps and the less the generator is running when tied the better

generator
sticky question and I need to go do some math on that
will post the generator requirements for the two warp 9 motor option

[Boston]

ok let me run myself through the hole thing since its been a long time
watts divided by volts = amps

72x340=24,480 unbelievable watts
a house typically has a 350+ amp service so this motor used about the same juice as a typical home

so I have 24,480 watts
I need 1 horsepower to create about 630 watts pr/hr or .6 Kwh ( yes I had to look that up )
so 24,480 w / 630 = 40 HP generator

and as it happens a nice $7000 55hp diesel generator can be had on line that would run this motor at peak draw
although Im positive I could build my own lots cheaper ( thats a hole other thread )

but for battery considerations
Ild like to then consider that Ill be running under batteries at peak efficiency as a matter of course and not blasting over the bay
so my amps at peak efficiency are 174
and my usage is 12,528 watts/hr on each motor
with a torque of 25 ft/lb at 3150 rpm

so before I go much farther I need to rmember a few things about batteries
there is a resistance to any electrical system that dictates how fast I can draw juice from it or through it

so if Im remembering this correctly its not just how many batteries I have but how fast I can draw em down
boils down to the slower I draw from a battery the better amp hours Ill get out of it

so I think a typical duty cycle of say 4 hours sounds about right for a deep cell battery ( that was a pure guess )

so 12 volts and 108 amps thats 27 amps pr hour and I end up with one seriously dead battery why do I remember being able to only draw about maybe eight amps per hour with out seriously screwing up a battery
must have guessed wrong on the duty cycle

so lets go with an 8 hour duty cycle just for fun
and say I dont want to drain the batteries down bellow say 25%

that gives me say 81 available amps over 8 hours or 10.1 amp/hrs pr battery at 12 volts or 1.68 amps/hr at 72 volts
and my motor uses 174 peak efficiency amps/hr at 72 volts

so I need 103 batteries at about $250 each to go for eight hours ($25,750)

if I want 8 hours I need 103 batteries and I think I just sunk the boat
if I want 4 hours its 52 per motor
two hours and its 26 or ($6438) per motor

( there is someone in there with a pitchfork waiting to skewer me for some error Im about to or have already made )

so how long does it take to charge 52 12volt 108amp/hr batteries
( the point Red was getting after )

so now lets consider max efficiency of 174 amps and a few hours cruse time
once again just for hemorrhaging cash like a mad man and forgetting to park my bar in the garage

if the vawt generator is of the 2,500 watt 50 amp variety
which is about five feet tall and just happens to fit under the canopy of that beautiful floating brothel I'ld love to call home

and the engines use a ttl of 12,528 w/h over a period of 4 hours I end up needing
50.1Kwh and 696 amps at 72v or 4176 amps at 12 volts
assuming 100% efficiency and Ild be feeling lucky to get 80%

a few things about charging

I think there is a minimum charge that unless I hit it there will basically be no charging at all
prety sure its about ten amps on something like a car battery so its bound to be similar on a deep cell

anyone know how efficiently a battery charges
cause thats going to seriously effect the numbers

basically I have for each 50 amp generator call it four batteries I can charge if the wind is cooperating in say a three or four hour period of time
three generators going full tilt thats 12 batteries at a crack and I have 52 pr motor
104/12=8.6 call it 9
9x4 hours per set of 12 =

and the answer to Reds question is

36 hours of continuous charging to go for 4

assuming 104 batteries and dam impossible efficiency
you could probably double that time and get it about right

thats not so bad given Im just a day tripper and probably would be sitting round most of the time anyway

course I spent
26000 on batteries ( not much lowering that cost )
1600 each on motors ( I could get em used for less than half that )
7000 on a generator and I need two of em 14000 ( I could build em from two ( BMW R45 < 1000 each ) engines converted to alcohol and pushing a series of alternators way cheaper than that )
1500 ttl on 3 wind turbines ( and Ild probable double that to six and make em retractible off the roof for cruising )

so I could do it for
26000 on batteries
1600 for two warp9 motors
7000 for two BMW R45 motorcycle engine generators able run independently from the batteries indefinitely (converted to alcohol )
3000 for six 2,500 watt 50amp wind turbine generators with a recharge time of 36 hours in a 20 knot wind
-----------------------------------
= say 40,000 with all the bits and pieces

as aposed to maybe 12000 on a pair of diesel engines
and very little chance of explosion
but 2000 a fill up

so
whats the cost of diesel at the dock and how long does it last in the tank
given that if you work it out I could run the screw at 89% generator 11% batteries with a good wind indefinitely on a long haul
or go for short hops and hardly buy fuel at all other than once a year or so when Ild take her out for a spin

thing is you'd end up sleeping with batteries piled around you cause you be hard pressed to find a spot for 104 of em
course its about 2250 bucks to fill the 750 gallon tank at 3 bucks a gal for diesel and its only going up

next question is whats the speed of the boat at 25 ft/lb and 3150 shaft rpm before gearing pr motor

[Kay9]

Dont forget that the batts have a max 5 year life span. So thats 26000 / 5 years of life so its 5200 per year in batt operating cost.

Ive done this math over and over and over, on everything from my motorhometo my 40' commercial fishing boat. Its just a LOT more cost effective to go with diesels.

K9

[Boston]

local guy owns a auto parts place up the road Ive done lots of biz with says he would get me the batteries half price if I buy em all at once
basically wholesale

I wonder what 25 ft/lbs at 3150 revs equates to in terms of screw power
also wonder what the rebuild screw speed is at cruse

[masalai]

The only way I can justify batteries is to say "house supply" where the draw rate is more genteel... The electric drive uses batteries as a buffer whilst the diesel gensets catch up with load and a "silly?" attitude where I do not want holes through the hulls below the waterline - - The electric drives are a pair of "outboards" - Torqeedo - that have a peak draw of 4000W at 48v - about 166A for the pair, but normal draw at restrained cruise for 4knots seems nearer a third that in calm conditions... My boat weighs in at 4800kg or less and is quite slippery with long hulls for narrow beam somewhere around 1:15 beam:length ratio.... Batteries are the most difficult and expensive part as the draw rate can be very high (damaging to most) and duration is brief as I think I understand a C20 rated battery means something like 50% use in 20 hours - - WTF - next to useless for reliable life in service - So it has to be specialised batteries like can be found on golf buggies or indoor use forklifts or the GM volta car.... "millions" of AA sized cells in a package are relatively light, can charge and discharge at high rates OK but cost (need a printing press or access to the spare sheets from uncle Ben Bs printing press:D:D:D)

Electric drive motors can deliver near full torque at zero revs and up and the Torqeedo claim the 4 R series equate to a 10hp outboard in thrust??? - the peak revs at the screw are about 1200 (from my failing memory).... remember most motors/generators loose for a delivery around 0.8 - is the word "factor" used there somewhere?...

I am closely watching battery and PV panel developments and 10 "Sharp" 200W panels and spiral wound agm batteries are my present standards markers... Gassing is a concern as I have seen a couple of small H2 explosions on boats and fear same greatly...

Oh - and a very pretty boat - something like a "Brisbane bay boat" used for fishing then converted to leisure cruiser...

[Boston]

those azipod drives are really slick

having worked the numbers on the two Warp9 motors I wanna run em on one Warp11

260 amps at 72 volts and 1976 rpm producing 70 ft lbs at its most efficient

for eight hours Ild need
260x8hrs= 2080 amps at 72volts over eight hours
batteries allow 1.68 amps per hour at 72 volts for 8 hours
or 13.5 amps at 72 volts over eight hours at 75% discharge

at 75% discharge in 8 hours
2080/13.5=154 batteries to go eight hours no charge at 70 ft/lbs and 1979 rpm
as apposed to
206 batteries to go eight hours no charge at 50 ft/lbs and 3147 rpm

sticky thing is the rpm
when geared down things look like the warp11 is the winner
with a 3/1 ratio for the warp 9 yielding aprox 150 ft/lbs
and 2/1 ratio for the warp11 yielding aprox 140 ft/lbs

150/206=.728 ft/lbs per battery
140/154=.909 ft/lbs per battery

next thing to think of is that this boat was converted to two 230 hp diesels which at 2500 rpm produce about 600 ft/lbs torque max
if I remember there is some kind of funky difference between the power comparisons of internal combustion and electric

an electric warp9 28 hp motor is used by Chevy to convert there S10 to an electric from a 190 hp internal combustion engine
which is were this hole thing started from

Im also seeing the range of lifetime for the batteries varying from 3-5 hundred cycles up to 15 hundred cycles
anything from 4-10 years although Ive never seen a battery last me longer than about 5

[masalai]

http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Torqeedo_Australia/News.html "...The Cruise 4.0 R redefines the standards for electric propulsion. It converts supplied battery power better into propulsion than any other outboard. Now, users get more power and range from the same battery supply.

The new, powerful Cruise model runs on 48 V. Offering 97 kg of thrust, the Cruise 4.0 R has the thrust equivalent to a 9.9 hp internal combustion outboard. More importantly, the propulsive power, measured as speed times thrust after all losses including propeller losses, compares to an 8 hp gas outboard in displacement mode.

"When talking about electric propulsion for boats, battery power is always the limiting factor. Therefore it's paramount to use the limited battery power as efficiently as possible," said Torqeedo managing partner Christoph Ballin.

"For electric outboards, overall efficiencies range between 20% for trolling motors and up to 35% for stronger electric propulsion motors. The overall efficiencies for internal combustion outboards are significantly lower than that," said Ballin. "We don't know of any other outboard that even gets close to the efficiency levels we offer...."

[Boston]

the gorilla of the battery world

http://www.dcbattery.com/rollssurrette_8cs17ps.jpg

3300 cycles 10 year life grantee 15 expected weighs 424 lbs costs ~$1200 each
8V
20 hour discharge available amps 820 41 pr/hr
12 hour discharge available amps 713 59.5 pr/hr
8 hour discharge available amps 640 80 pr/hr

or 8.9 amp/hrs each at 72 volts and 8 hour discharge time
71.2 amps at 72 volts at 8 hours
motor wants 260 amps at peak efficiency for 8 hours thats 2080 amps/71.2-= 29 batteries
call it 30 batteries drawn to 50% as each battery actually holds 1156 amp/hrs at 8v
$ 36,000 for eight hours no charge
or 16 tanks of diesel at 3 a gallon and a 750 gallon tank
over ten years assuming the price of diesel remains the same as it is today ( fat chance )

on a typical deep cell battery the following seems to be the general consensus
A battery "cycle" is one complete discharge and recharge cycle. It is usually considered to be discharging from 100% to 20%, and then back to 100%. However, there are often ratings for other depth of discharge cycles, the most common ones are 10%, 20%, and 50%. You have to be careful when looking at ratings that list how many cycles a battery is rated for unless it also states how far down it is being discharged. For example, one of the widely advertised telephone type (float service) batteries have been advertised as having a 20-year life. If you look at the fine print, it has that rating only at 5% DOD - it is much less when used in an application where they are cycled deeper on a regular basis. Those same batteries are rated at less than 5 years if cycled to 50%. For example, most golf cart batteries are rated for about 550 cycles to 50% discharge - which equates to about 2 years.

Battery life is directly related to how deep the battery is cycled each time. If a battery is discharged to 50% every day, it will last about twice as long as if it is cycled to 80% DOD. If cycled only 10% DOD, it will last about 5 times as long as one cycled to 50%. Obviously, there are some practical limitations on this - you don't usually want to have a 5 ton pile of batteries sitting there just to reduce the DOD. The most practical number to use is 50% DOD on a regular basis. This does NOT mean you cannot go to 80% once in a while. It's just that when designing a system when you have some idea of the loads, you should figure on an average DOD of around 50% for the best storage vs cost factor. Also, there is an upper limit - a battery that is continually cycled 5% or less will usually not last as long as one cycled down 10%. This happens because at very shallow cycles, the Lead Dioxide tends to build up in clumps on the the positive plates rather in an even film. The graph above shows how lifespan is affected by depth of discharge. The chart is for a Concorde Lifeline battery, but all lead-acid batteries will be similar in the shape of the curve, although the number of cycles will vary.

according to the graph Ild get about 600 cycles at 75% with a regular deep cell battery

http://www.windsun.com/pictures/cyclelife2.gif

the left side represents cycles the lower represents % drain

Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need.
Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to a size of battery (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up the true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.

[Boston]

how do you figure out the power required to drive a hull
that boat is rated to cruse at 10 and max at 14 with two 230 hp diesels
thing is there is a conversion from internal combustion hp to elect hp
I think its based on the idea that electrics get higher torque at lower rpm and internal gives higher torque at higher rpm
but whats the magic formula

I could base it on the 28 hp elect in the Chevy S10 replacing a 190 hp internal combustion
which works out to a 6.8/1 ratio
or 37.1 hp for the warp11 x 6.8 = 252 equivalent hp
in which case Im at 1/2 the hp I need given that that boat was just rebuilt and had two 230hp engines installed
although I did gear the thing down to half its rpm so that should double torque and therefore hp
so Im back to being properly powered

still it would be nice to know how to calculate for drag/power =speed

well Kay9 looks like you hit it on the nail so far
but Im still trying
hell I even increased the cost by fifty percent and got twice the battery life maybe three
but
its still 6+ tons of batteries and $36,000 not including the monster genset

[masalai]

At 6 tons (I feel your dream-boat must weigh more than that), to need/use that diesel HP, give the idea of electric drive a miss, as the numbers will never crunch... Think of my example - a very easily driven hull-form (long, shallow and skinny) and less than 5 tonnes design loaded maximum...

I am still looking at running the gensets whilst motoring - the electric only mode should give me 30minutes to get alongside and secure at the fuel berth, or, to quietly depart early morning without disturbing the neighbours.... and the batteries meet all house needs, so, no gas stove, or, gas fridge, or, gas hot water system and I am still thinking of the need for a small self contained gas BBQ...

Electric should be used only where the design is readily adaptable and one recognises that the top speed is significantly lower - well under "hull speed"... and replaces around 40HP of diesel engine or less... I am not aware of a formulae/rule of thumb to convert between the diesel & electric form, - as both can be designed to meet different performance criteria, and yet meet some of the performance objectives of the other system...

[Boston]

well your right of course Im just playing with the numbers to try and determine the actual values of things

nother little gem is that there is an out gassing issue with all those batteries discharging as fast as Im thinking
things would have to be ventilated and confined to safe areas
and would still need to be distributed properly for trim and stability

was hoping the electric drive would work out but by the time I calculate for thrust to mass Ratio and so on its starts getting uglier
its not the start up costs that are so prohibitive but the mass considerations


I think the Sophia has 12 tons of ballast if I remember and she is only 46' not 57'
point being that its not unheard of to carry round that much weight as ballast
and that hull is not intended to plane anyway

three of those gorrila batteries could be used with the wind turbines and a small generator capable of recharging one at a time to power the operating systems
just not real worth it to power the drive system
or at least not that I can see so far although the start up costs when compared to a few tanks of fuel arent all that bad

on the plus side they do have some great new batteries out there
on the down side they are pricey

these guys got it down when it comes to cars
seems like someone should be able to do the same thing with yachts

http://www.teslamotors.com/

they use a Zillion tiny AA batteries crazy as that sounds

my theory is that eventually every boat out there will be wind wave or solar powered in some way with electric being the transfer medium in most cases

the mass is offset by the lack of engines and lower fuel requirements also the smaller gen set if you consider only charging half the bats at a time or less
also your idea of the azipods saves on drive shaft and coolant system so thats a little weight savings right there

in the end I havnt added up all the mass considerations but Ill bet there close
its still a disadvantage for the electric but Ill bet its within a thousand pounds or two of being the same
after that its a matter of finding out if that boat carries ballast and how much
my bet is it does and its probably not a small amount

the original was 45000 lbs displacement
with the wood probably not exceeding 4 tons of it
more likely 3 but I havent gotten to that part of the comparison

speaking of which
whats the proper ratio of thrust to weight for this kind of vessel
can I just go with 45000/460hp/7=electric hp needed

[masalai]

I tried to work it out when I first got into thinking electric drive and could not get any real/satisfactory answers - the nearest being from the electric motor marketing side suggesting 10 or I think up to 17hp in the leisure end of the market - commercial then takes a giant leap to large diesel or gas turbine generators and large electric pods in the likes of large tugs or larger and specialised design to meet a particular performance criteria... Thoosa had the biggest single unit recreational stuff...

The biggest problem for me is in getting 8000W at 48v (say 170+Amps) nominal out of batteries without doing serious damage to the long term viability of the battery even if recharging occurs at 50% discharge - worry about battery overheat, gassing, plate buckling and chemical degradation and who knows what else? - - - We needed better batteries 5 to 15 years ago so the technology had time to mature and get refined...

All this stuff has a large component of "black magic" for me as I just find some info and gradually build a "database" - - my limited knowledge is only based on that variable/inconsistent source... my base formulae is Watts = Amps x Volts, then use algebra to work it out and rule of thumb conversion factor is .8 (80%) from and to in motors and generators as a rough suck-it-and-see idea... The other "black magic" twist is the "pulse mode electronic controllers", as it seems to be able to push juice down a wire better than pure DC current....

I have seen some stuff published in USA a year or so ago on a couple of electric boats but quite ugly with masses of pv panels on relatively broad beam (inefficient) catamaran hull configurations and do not go very fast or far...?

[masalai]

Custom microprocessor-controlled lithium-ion battery with 6,831 individual cells. Weight 992 lbs. - - From the Tesla species - and a 375 volt AC induction air-cooled electric motor with variable frequency drive. Output 248 peak horsepower (185kW) and 276 ft/lbs (375 nm) of torque. Redline 14,000 rpm. and a big gearbox to reduce the revs to ? x 100rpm at the wheels.... :D:D:D

Now that is getting near usable storage capacity and energy output rate for a battery - pity about the price???

[kistinie]

The biggest problem for me is in getting 8000W at 48v (say 170+Amps) nominal out of batteries without doing serious damage to the long term viability of the battery even if recharging occurs at 50% discharge - worry about battery overheat, gassing, plate buckling and chemical degradation and who knows what else? -

In my opinion

170 amps is too much for 12v batteries, cables, connectors
You need to raise Volts

50/60 Amps is more a target to me for long term cruise, 100A for short term

Keep in mind that : Watt lost = Total Resitance x I² As you can see, no Volts in the formula !

So more Amps, more lost Joules
More Joules = more heat = more failure = more fire risk.

Also, cost of copper, cost of electronic for commutation and conversion, low reliability, and fire risk, all this rise with Amps, not with volts
there is no good reason to play with amps...except to keep volts low to protect man from electrocution danger.

[Boston]

all points well taken
I left out the losses due to resistance to keep things simple but mentioned em earlier
theory is I just wanted a rough idea of feasibility

I was thinkin I would need 000 cable
about 200' to connect everything
0000 if I wanted to play it safe
although so far its not looking to practical
the huge batteries require huge cable and the amp load is really high on the gensets

those gorilla batteries might work well but they are only 8 volts and kinda heavy
424 lbs each
but hold 1100+ amps and give 800+ over 8 hours
I think and I bet they are shedding heat at that

what hull are you thinkin of converting
once you know the hull and its normal displacement and requirements you can start crunching numbers a lot easier

on that old Elco
disp was 45000 lbs
power was 460 hp
so is a 100lbs to 1hp a standard weight to thrust ratio or is it kinda low kinda high
whats the rule of thumb on that

[Luckless]

Did I miss a link to a page detailing these magnetic bearing based turbines? I'm a computer science student, but dabble in house design, and would like to run the numbers for including something like this.

They may not be as efficient as standard windmills, but I do think they would be easier to secure in a heavy storm for home built units.

[Boston]

they are supposed to be able to handle up to 100mph+ winds
and they do not swing violently in gusty conditions

if you google
virticle wind turbines generators vawt
in video
you will get hundreds of hits many describing how to build them

and the scuttle but is that they are more efficient than standard

B

[masalai]

Boston, look at the link at the bottom of my posts - that is what I am building... @ 10720 pounds and with 2 x 10 hp outboards (petrol), the figures show 536 pounds per hp as a comparison to yours... an easily driven boat (basic sail area of 72M2 or 775 square feet with main and #2 jib)...

kistinie, I think I have that covered as the torqeedo electric outboards have a peak draw of 4000 watts each at 48 volts and each has its own bank and leads from battery to motor of about 3 metres (10ft), as there are 2 banks - one in each hull, under the aft berths and the "outboard mounts are close to the aft bulkhead of the berth/cabins... - the gensets are forward in the chamfer area of the bridgdeck, between the pair of forward full width main bulkheads (aft one holds the mast step)... The images at the website are pdf files and can be used to see in more detail by clicking on the thumbnails...

[Boston]

those cats are all the rave down in the Caribbean
and way to go on the low power usage
1 hp per 536 is really good
the shallow draft of a cat is really helping out with that although you will have more surface area

whats your max speed at that hp
and how long can you go on batteries alone
or is it a continuous run genset

wind turbine later and your self generating while you sit around
although pv are easier to hide in that design they are more expensive

B

oh and those bolt on electrical stern drives are really slick
17 hp eh
whats the specs on that
how many amps at how many volts

[masalai]

Boston most of those questions will be answerable in about 12 months... :D:D:D I anticipate less than 30 minutes under batteries alone and the gensets will automatically kick in when load and charge level determines a need.... a little bit complex as there will also be about 2KW of Photo-Voltaic panel potential as well.

It seems that wetted surface is not that big an issue - wave generation is first big hindrance as that determines what is generally called (wrongly) "hull-speed", but as in many things relating to word usage in English, an accepted term (much like "hoovering" instead of vacuum-cleaning)....

Once a hull tries to attain a certain speed, (lets still call it "hull speed"), its stern falls into a wave trough whilst the bow tries to climb over the one it is generating, and, - climbing uphill in water requires lots and lots of "horsepower" just to stay there - riding the hump... instead of humping the ride:D:D:D. - - Long skinny hulls, as per some modern cats, do not produce a bow wave so readily or so big as most monohulls, so require a lot less to make them go well...

In some comparisons I did on average expected output watts/kg pv seemed to have a slight edge in the 1500w+ region and also on the watt/mass and about par on watts/$ to have installed... That was a couple of years ago so things could have changed.... On a sail boat co-gen is a good option too but as a supplement as sailing is about 10 to 20% of the time or less...

[Boston]

ok whole new twist
I was just over on another thread and remembered some calculations I had worked out concerning flywheels
a 200lb wheel with a diameter of three feet ( if Im remembering this correctly ) spinning at 10,000 rpm other than being a bomb also contains a huge amount of potential energy
only problem I can think of is that its going to want to find its own stability due to gyroscopic forces
it could be set in gimbals to negate some of those forces
and it will need a safety cage anyway
but
hmmmmmmm
time to go crunch some numbers
I know two of em contain enough energy to bring a one ton car

[masalai]

Even in gimbals, it will induce immense forces against any change in momentum and direction - try this experiment - get the front wheel of a bicycle, holding one side of the axle and spin it up, now try walking a short distance, in a straight line at various angles to the line of spin of the wheel and also try moving forward and then turning to head in another direction.... Try holding the axle in a horizontal position with the wheel spinning for and aft, then try with the wheel spinning across your heading, and also with the axle vertical - still having difficulty?

[Boston]

sucks cause the fly wheel is so efficient in storing energy

[masalai]

Keep on seeking inspirational ideas:D:D:D:D

[Boston]

am working on it
Im sure we would all love to find a viable application of alternative energies
maybe a mass that would be raised in the storage process and allowed to fall in the discharge process
gives up the benefits of the physics of spinning objects
but still stores the energy
course it raised the center of gravity
Ill work out the answer to the question of how far would you have to raise the 6 tons of batteries it takes to run the vessel for 8 hours to a sufficient height to gain an equal amount of potential energy

[masalai]

The most efficient (also least cost) would be sails... :D:D:D:D if the boat was already set-up to carry sails.... and probably the next best would be PV panels on a light weight and easily driven pair of hulls (a light weight catamaran).... unless you like the idea of a canoe and paddling.... - I understand that it is an old Indian trick...

[Boston]

still would be interesting to work out the simple clock like mechanism of falling mass in regards to energy storage

sails are actually expensive
when you look at the life span of even a good sail
plus all the tackle and rigging

I could spend 50,000 on carbon fiber masts and booms for the Christina
along with standing and running rigging
then all the winches and the rope itself
then the sails custom made cause nothing is standard
the iron work
the roller reefing jib and flying jib
holly crap bat man it adds up fast

finding a viable eco friendly alternative would be a godsend


there must be a way to use all of the environmental energies in unison to achieve the best possible result

[masalai]

Ahhhh come on, no need to go over the top.... You are a wood worker, so how about getting some straight grained good timber, and BUILD a mast - I have spotted several "how to build a mast" projects using wood and epoxy and a bit of glass to attach stuff (no holes and bolts as that would weaken the structure)... same for the chain-plates - made of glass and epoxy as mine will be!

Hanked on flat cut battened jibs and genoas wear quite well and do not need to be carbon fibre or exotic fibres - just take care of them and hemp is still highly regarded material in the marine environment - not the smoking variety - but if you do use that variety - then on expiry of use as a sail or rope, then smoke it in a peace pipe :D:D:D:D

I am starting with a cruising laminate, and may graduate to hemp if I live long enough - and hanked on flat cut with battens, means no special sail-loft designs....

[Boston]

oh I could definitely build wood masts
Sitka spruce just like back in the day no problem I hardly need the a set of plans
although the gaff rig requires a little blocking in the throat sets
but they would not be as stiff and light as cf

we had a neighbor who lofted all out sails who we traded for
so Im not so slick with making sails as I should be

the power yacht just looks so comfortable were the christina although dam handsome in her own right is a tad more cramped and a tad more expensive

I like your cat though
that sun roof looks right convenient

Im realy torn
I could build the bigger motor sailor and have more room cheaper
or the smaller sailor and have less at a higher original cost but little fuel bill

[masalai]

I was told, when I was seeking an appropriate design, go for the smallest option that meets ones needs (remember that a boat is a hole in the water into which one must throw money to keep afloat - or words to that effect...)

So long as you remember that to carry less on a cat is better and you have more "space" under cover and she sals without leaning so the ladies will feel more comfortable doing the cooking. :D:D:D:D

[Boston]

another thing is that the draft on the Elco is only 3'9" were the draft of the Christina is 5'9'' if I remember

its lots cheaper to build

and that shallow draft could come in dam handy in a pinch

[masalai]

Yes sir - sneak up a creek to shelter from a storm.... do a bit of "gunkhole" exploration.... sneak in behind some of the tropical fringing reefs for a "quiet anchorage" in shallower waters - Melanesian region has few areas of 'continental shelf' so anchoring outside the fringing reef could be in water several hundred feet deep.... a vessel that can happily sit on its own bottom and stay 'un-tilted' is also an advantage if caught with a falling tide, for the occasional scrub, or, repair to screw etc...

[Boston]

I was thinking it could also fit twin keels and be built to sit on its bottom
so we are on the same track there

I got a hot date so talk to you later
B out

[FAST FRED]

If all you are looking to do is cruise inshore (where there is fuel) you should consider a steam engine.

Old waste oil , wood or scraps of GRP boats will feed a fire , and with free fuel efficiency is hardly a concern.

Happy Trails,

FF

[Boston]

hmmmm
I kinda like that idea
how hard is it to find an old steam engine large enough
and I wonder if it could be converted to burn pellets
I can get pellets for a pellet stove dirt cheep


interesting idea Red these things are sure pack a lot of torque for there horse power rating

The 3-cylinder Dieter engine's mechanical dimensions are:

* Bore:3.5"
* Stroke:4.0"
* Piston area:9.6 square inches per cylinder.
* Displacement:115 cu. in. per revolution.
* Max torque:> 400 ft-lb with 250 psi applied at inlet, long cutoff.
* Valving:Poppet inlet and poppet auxiliary exhaust. (concentric)
* Valve control:Sliding camshaft with mechanical tappets.
* Inlet cutoffs: Variable forward cutoff, 20-80 %; neutral (inlet closed), reverse 80%.
* Uniflow ports:Release begins at 90% of stroke.
* Main bearings:(2) sleeve type, supported by crankcase casting.Each approximately 3" long x 1.4" ID. (8.4 sq. in. total bearing area)
* Big end bearings:Sleeve type, Each approximately 1.5" crank pin diameter x 1.75" long. (2.6 sq. in.)
* Wrist pin bearings:Sleeve type, Each approximately 0.75" dia x 1.5" length. (1.1 sq. in.)
* Crankshaft:One-piece construction, made from a single steel bar 6" dia x 24" long.
* Crank cheeks:1.75" thick for center crank, 0.625" thick for each end crank.
* Weight:Approximately 135 to 165 lbs, depending on what is attached.

Performance

The expected performance of the Dieter is summarized below:



* Rated power output:20 HP @ 600 RPM with 250 psi/ 700 o F steam at inlet
* MEP at max power:114 psi
* Steam rate:17.5 lb/hp-hr @ rated output
* Required steam supply:400 lb/hr @ 250 psi, 700 o F (at steam chest)
* Required water supply:> 0.31 cu. in./rev at 25% cutoff
* Fuel Rate:1.5 lb/hp-hr (kerosene)



In summary, the Dieter engine is smaller in displacement than the 20 HP Stanley engine, but operates more efficiently in spite of its lower steam pressure, due to its ability to use short cutoff and highly superheated steam. The Dieter's 17.5 lb/hp-hr steam rate is not as good as the White (12 lb/hp-hr) or the Doble (10 lb/hp-hr). This is not surprising since those engines used higher temperatures and pressures, as well as compounding. For comparison, the White achieved a fuel rate of approximately 1 lb/hp-hr, while a modern gas engine gets 0.5 lb/hp-hr, and a diesel does best of all at 0.3 lb/hp-hr (estimates by Dave Nergaard).

[Boston]

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/20hpse.jpg

ok this thing is manufactured new for a cost of $6,500
its 20 hp at 200 ft/lb
so I need two of em
then there is the boilers
boilers are the tricky part
for efficiency its best to have smaller boilers and more of em than one big one
the Titanic ( nice pick of examples eh ) had two cylinder steam engines but had 33 boilers for each ( I think )
I would need 6 boilers four at 6 hp output and 2 at 8 hp
they also run $6,500 each
and eat about 1/2 gallon pr minute each or 250lb steam pr hour
and had a lovely habit of exploding

thats about fifty thousand dollars worth of now you need to light a fire in the bottom of a wooden boat
and so died the age of steam

B

on the other hand
I did just find this thing
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=15&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pioneer.net%2F~carlich&ei=MJHdSeb-GIPOMtDPtdYN&usg=AFQjCNHm8kNx0I569q1slRfLvlWxDuCxKg&sig2=JhQJGHl6WFO74gRnBMk2Rw

http://members.pioneer.net/~carlich/RSE/RSEengines-v4highpower.jpg

$2,000

1050 ft/lb torque

200 HP, V - 4 Single Acting

HP @ 600psi & 1,000rpm............. 200
Working Pressure.................. 600psi
Cylinders.............................. 4 @ 90o
Bore & Stroke.................... 5" x 3.86"
RPM Range.......................... to 1,000
Overall............ 34" W x 36" L x 21" H
Weight.................................. 700 lbs.

and would two boilers for which DIY plans are available $32

http://members.pioneer.net/~carlich/RSE/RSEboilers-50-125hpmono.jpg

50 - 125 HP Monotube Boiler

Horsepower.......................... 50 - 125
Rated Working Pressure....... 1000psi
Heating Surface................... 80 sq.ft.
Weight, dry........................... 350 lbs.
Overall..................... 36" dia. x 28" H
Firing............... Fuel Oil or Kerosene

and Ild do my damdest to convert it to pellets with a auto screw feed box

cost is about 9C per 8000 btu at $225 per ton
cost of diesel is about 9C per 3954 btu at $3/gallon
or half what the value of pellets are

Dam Red you might be onto something here
course 1000 lbs of steam is going to hurt if it gets loose and Im still lighting a fire in the bottom of a wooden boat

been doing a little searching on pellet boilers

pellet boilers are equipped with automatic ignition and easy to use as a gas or oil boiler, and can deliver a similar heat yield. The burner is microprocessor-controlled for extinction as well as monitoring. It has complete electronic control over the entire heating system. It will match heating requirements by modulating and by cycling. Of course, being fully automatic, the boiler re-ignites itself electronically whenever heat is required meaning that the occupants need not know anything about the boiler controls. Wood pellets have a heat output of 4.8 kWh/kg, while heat output from oil is over twice that level (10.6 kWh/kg). In other words a similar result from the pellet boiler would need double the volume of fuel (pellets) which isn't an offset against it because we are talking in terms of space not of efficiency. A wood pellet boiler and pellet store require a very minimum of 8m2 floor space.

Heating with pellets is almost as convenient as using oil. No supervision of the equipment is required, although the pellet-burner will need cleaning about once a month. At the same time the ash must be removed, although the quantity is small (1%) as the pellets burn very efficiently.

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and this guy has a miniature pellet making machine
poor in some sawdust and out flies some pellets ( all they are is compressed wood pulp anyway )

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and this thing would make it one step easier to modify that DIY boiler

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[masalai]

"...Dam Red you might be onto something here course 1000 lbs of steam is going to hurt if it gets loose and Im still lighting a fire in the bottom of a wooden boat..." - - - seems boats are a compromise between this or that...:D:D:D keep on cooking those ideas :P

[Boston]

ok
putting it all together
I started with this
57' Elco

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg

the latest best idea is a steam engine ($2,000)
200 hp 1050 ft/lb torque
two boilers converted to pellets (say another ($4,000)
and a pellet mill to make the pellets from anything from hay and straw to wood pulp or corn stalks ($700) (might even catch me trying sea weed)
or $225 pr ton to buy and a boiler typically burns about 1 to 5 lbs an hour

Im going with three Vawt generators 2500 watts each at 13 amps ( $500 each ) placed in line under the canopy augmenting one steam powered genset ($2500) and a battery pack of six gorilla batteries ($7,200) at 8 volts and 1150 amp hrs each and an auxiliary ( something to limp home with ) elec torquito 17hp (?)

2000
4000
700
1500
2500
7200
------
$17,900

and I still need a transmission, drive line, screw and a few other bits and pieces (the engine is reversible and the torque is insane so do I really need a trany if I use a large enough screw ?)

I could skinny up on the batteries by maybe half and get that down to
$14,700 not including the auxiliary torquido

and my favorite part
free fuel
with the pellet mill any number of low or no cost fuel sources could be used to manufacture the pellets
or if Im feeling lazy I might just break down and spring the $225 on a bloody ton of fuel

the wood only cost for the vessel is about $15,000
White Oak Cedar and Cherry traditional build plank on frame
with all the bits and pieces the drive train could end up $25,000

now for the electronics
whats a comfortable level of electronics in a boat like this?
radio back up radio, weather com, satellite tracking system, depth, Eprb's,

what am I forgetting?

[masalai]

Arrrr Boston - ignore the batteries and carry lots or wood chips and a device to chop up the "driftwood" and lumber you cut down??? the hold that holds your wood (fuel) is your battery...

[Boston]

seems like putting all your eggs in one basket
besides I need some to watch tv with and play the stereo
you dont think a small auxiliary is in order that little torquedo seemed perfect
it even flips up when not in use

and what electronics you planning on in your cat mate ?

and I did include the pellet mill its only $700

oh
and the idea behind the pellets is you cut down nothing it can all be made out of waste
sawdust
wood chips
straw
even corn silage or cat tails work great
there is even one pellet mill that you can just shove yard waste into

[FAST FRED]

the wood only cost for the vessel is about $15,000
White Oak Cedar and Cherry traditional build plank on frame
with all the bits and pieces the drive train could end up $25,000

Hull cost is about 20% of the total, and dont forget 600 to 8000 man hours to put it together.

FF

[Boston]

do you include labor in that 20%
cause that hull looks easy to do

http://www.usedboats.com/media/boat_images_ub/1114871/1374769/view/01.jpg

http://www.usedboats.com/media/boat_images_ub/1114871/1374769/view/02.jpg

that hull just looks easy
and the putting together is the fun part Red
only thing Im really doing different with the hull is bilge keels so she will rest upright if I get in a pinch and for ease of cleaning
although she is pretty flat bottomed anyway and would likely sit just fine ( I might not even do the bilge keels depends on what the lines plan actually looks like )
and ya Im not just trying to figure out what is the most advantageous set up for the given purpose but also the relative cost when compared to standard diesel engines

I think you meant 6000 to 8000 hours
not even I can do that hull in 600 hours and Ive made a living off being dam fast ( 2500 sq ft house frame typically takes me one week four guys with a tolerance of 1/4 inch per room or joist length, wall height and depends on how cut up the house is )

question at this point is electronics and nav aids
whats a comfortable level of electronics in a boat like this
and what should that budget look like
Im going to guess about 10,000 would seem reasonable for two radios, four Eprb's minimum, a satellite tracking dome, nav and weather computer and the appropriate signal lights, spot light and horn

will have to go look some stuff up but any ideas on whats the more dependable manufacturers that wouldnt break the bank
I dont know Jack about electronics

[masalai]

No need for 4 epirbs as the new ones cost a fortune and in a life vest attach a small strobe light in a sealed container if you must - a healthy fear of being a MOB is sufficient incentive to ensure ones safety harness is attached to the boat whilst on deck. - - To stay with the boat is better than many other options unless the boat is heading for a berth at the bottom (as opposed to settling into a swamped status)...

A couple of cheap battery powered GPS (like a 'garmin 60') then a couple of radios VHF to handle close range marine shipping with preset duplex and simplex channels if going more remote, an HF set to get weather fax (in conjunction with a trusted computer for display) or a second VHF handheld for redundancy and with rechargable aa batteries as on the GPS and am/fm domestic radio receiver using batteries again.... All the paper charts for the region you are cruising, and other "ancient" marine navigational tools and tables according to your skills and needs... This would be a minimum in addition to the standard fitout for your boat... I am sure I have missed a lot - still half asleep, as baby grandson - 3yo - is staying with us and seems to never sleep or run out of energy:D:D:D

[Boston]

he's just trying to remind you to have a good time and dont let little things like sleep get in the way. You always want to look at things from the eyes of a child specially when you live with one otherwise you will forget were you came from.

Hmmm I kidna had an urge for one of those groovy displays I saw a while back. it had a chart with depth and hazards along with a blip that was you and one that was other shipping.
thing was mind bending cool
also you could set your destination on the thing and it would display a line to follow
kinda mindless actually but slick none the less
Ill go look it up and tell you what that thing was
my bet is it costs a fortune

the minimum electronics sounds cheaper than I thought
I guess a cheapo hand held GPS would do the trick if I wanted to go that way
that and the paper charts you mentioned

at least two on the EPRB's
I got a thing for being rescued
although it sounds like your telling me they are built into the survival suet's these days
and ya the life jackets and life boat would be in the safety equipment section of this analysis and Im going all out when it comes to that stuff
I want 2 survival suet's in each of two rafts fully stocked
boat will be + buoyancy so it will take a hell of a wreck to sink it

whats a sweet ( reproduction ) antique ships compass go for these days and who makes em

[masalai]

All severe oceanic losses/damage of recent reports 'in this neck of the woods' affirm that staying with your main boat where possible (it has not sunk - NOTE PAST TENSE use) as abandonment to swim or even life-raft is NO guarantee of survival... - I forgot radar - something about 18 to 24 miles with auto wake-up and set to search every 10 or 15 minutes and if it finds a target to set off an alarm... Especially near shipping lanes or where cruise ships/large trawlers operate as you cannot guarantee they are watching their radar and a reflector is of no value or assistance here... - Their radar will be set for bigger objects to stop false alarms sounding on clutter.... - work out range by adding 20knots to your max velocity and double the time to head on impact and mount the dome high enough to reliably reach that distance (say 30knot closing velocity, range = 15 miles then 15 minute auto search or more frequent to be 'on the safe side' for say a coastguard boat steaming at 30knots:D:D:D)

Just a modern compass, professionally "boxed" to make sure it points truely, one would be preferable as would come with "red night vision illumination" and better compensation set-up around steel/iron if necessary...

For cold waters - yes a survival suit with your name embroidered inside, and made for the wearer and no-one-else to use, or, an approved for the waters cruised inflatable PFD with whistle mirror & strobe light as would be easier to wear at all times whilst moving...

"trinkets" are a temptation, but is not boating an excuse to get away from the stuff that uselessly clutters our lives? and a desire to live simpler and back to nature?

[Boston]

oh I know all about staying with the boat no mater what
if its floating stick with it
tie a life raft onto it but go nowhere
that's why I want it +buoyancy
run down and cut in two I want that thing to float
both halves

hey I just found lines for that boat and also scantlings
dam easy build if you ask me
ribs are only 1.25 x 1.25 on 12" centers and the keel is only
ah I forgot but its like 4"x 12"? timber framed
Ill have to go look up the stringers and floors again but I got it all copied and saved thing was real straight forward frame over keel

[Boston]

keeping the thread on track again
I started with this
57' Elco

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg

and I put some vawt generators on it thinking they would be enough if I had enough batteries and a conventional genset
but it was dam pricey and just not all that powerful in a pinch
there are those time when you run from a squall

so I went with steam

the latest best idea is a steam engine ($2,000) and a little machining ( pays to have friends who own machine shops )
200 hp 1050 ft/lb torque
two boilers converted to pellets (say another ($4,000) ( DIY plans can be had for $32 )
and a pellet mill to make the pellets from anything from hay and straw to wood pulp or corn stalks ($700) (might even catch me trying sea weed)
or $225 pr ton to buy and a boiler typically burns about 1 to 5 lbs an hour
in a boiler application Im guessing between 4-7 lbs and hour each boiler at ten knots
call it 11 lbs an hour or ~270 lbs a day

premium grade wood pellets put out around 8300 btu pr pound
diesel 130,500 btu pr gallon at 7.15 lbs per gallon thats 18,252btu per lb for 42C
at $3 gallon that works out to 435 btu per penny for diesel
at $225 a ton for pellets thats 8.89 lbs per $1 or .0889 lbs per penny
8300 btu x .0889 = pellets 738.0 btu per penny

holly shit
pellets are great

and for electricity while just sitting round

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there are loads of DIY versions like this one that puts out 2,500 watts at about 13 amps and costs around $200 for bits and pieces call it $500 to do a sweat job of it

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Im going with three Vawt generators 2500 watts each at 13 amps ( $500 each ) placed in line under the canopy augmenting one steam powered genset ($2500) and a battery pack of three gorilla batteries ($3,600) at 8 volts and 1150 amp hrs each and an auxiliary ( something to limp home with ) elec torquito 17hp (?)

Im estimating cost on engine and drive train at

2000 steam engine
4000 two boilers ( I could DIY em for half that )
700 pellet mill ( free fuel if I want to just make my own pellets )
1500 3 vawt Generators
2500 steam genset
3600 batteries
------
$14,700

and I still need a transmission, drive line, screw and a few other bits and pieces (the engine is reversible and the torque is insane so do I really need a trany if I use a large enough screw ?)

$14,700 not including the auxiliary torquido

with all the bits and pieces the drive train could end up $25,000

and my favorite part
free fuel
with the pellet mill any number of low or no cost fuel sources could be used to manufacture the pellets
or if Im feeling lazy I might just break down and spring the $225 on a bloody ton of fuel

the wood only cost for the vessel is about $15,000
White Oak Cedar and Cherry traditional build plank on frame


electronics


whats a comfortable level of electronics in a boat like this?
( time to go search some threads )

Im guessing 10,000 for a decent but not exorbitant system
2 GPS hand sets
3 radios ( dont care were I may be but I sure as hell would like to at least tell someone know if Im lost )
2 depth finders
I weather station with a decent sized screen
a satellite tracking system
a radar proximity alert system
wind vein auto pilot
fire alarm system
oxygen alarm system ( its a boiler thing )
air conditioning system
inverter
gauges and lights

what am I forgetting?

[masalai]

Why the satellite tracking system - fkcing expensive in $, energy and fees and for what?...

If you are building in wood then one depth sounder (electronic) with the transducer located on a bracket near the stern, or, of a pole that attaches forward a bit - not needed all the time... and a sounding rope (a small weight with regular knots to mark 6ft increments to about 30 ft for when the water is muddy and you cannot see the bottom and the electronics died - - redundancy)

"windvane-autopilot" with sails is feasible but will only hold a course relative to the wind and a wind change could put you on rocks in minutes and under power is not effective, and with abundant energy fit a balanced rudder and electric/electronic autopilot system -

fire alarm system $12.50 smoke detector from a hardware store or :D "help my clothes/hair is burning" :P:P, else an automatic extinguisher system is not cheap, - - but mandatory is several fire extinguishers and fire-blankets...

When anchored up for a night of rest, the usual is to look for a sheltered bay as constant rocking and rolling is not conducive to a romantic dinner and "sleep"... The sheltered anchorage will not be good for getting wind energy to make electricity so - stick with PV solar panels or make surplus and put it in batteries for when anchored up... - but if you love the spot and decide to stay for a few days (or the weather is nasty outside) - running the genset or main engine to charge batteries would rightly upset the neighbours...

Now nut out the sizes and power consumption etc.. of all your goodies - then start eliminating stuff savagely.... You are on about on page 4 of a BIG book - keep going....

[rasorinc]

You are forgetting pirate protection for night borders.

[masalai]

Opposite gender are never pirates so long as they are skinny-dipping will be assisted aboard... - others will then happily pay a "service" fee :D:D:D:D

[Boston]

running the genset or main engine to charge batteries would rightly upset the neighbours.

the steam engines/ generators are pretty quiet, certainly quieter than the diesel ones and voltaic's are expensive break and are heavy

Why the satellite tracking system - fkcing expensive in $, energy and fees and for what?...

they're about $2000 last time I looked and a $100 a month subscription for the link
I need it for day trading and a decent connection weather and those perfect evenings in front of the tube slurping down a beer arm around the girl

wind veins they say there the best thing for sailing why not for motoring
Ill look into a tiller gps model and see what they cost

smoke detector might be peanuts but still its vital so I listed it
same thing with the oxygen sensor


Now nut out the sizes and power consumption etc.. of all your goodies - then start eliminating stuff savagely.... You are on about on page 4 of a BIG book - keep going....

ya this is kinda fun though
what I still need to do is cross ref the weight per btu in pellets/diesel
and see if it checks out

pirates eh
boarding alarm system I saw one of them when I was looking up nav stations

actual companies and devices would be good guys
what do you use and what did it cost
how well do you like it and so on
Im going to go hunt down some electronics threads

B

[masalai]

Just an ordinary domestic ir detector that points inward (so no false alarms as people pass by in their dingy to or from the jetty) and connect to a bloody LOUD screaming alarm set inside so the thief buggers off in pain and agony:D:D:D then you need a small hidden switch to deactivate it when you return "home" - and make sure the screaming stops once the thief has left - or 2 minutes after he/she has left.... Just a small pizeo 12v is beaut... - local "home electronics / security shop" - Tandy, Dick-Smith or whatever....

[Boston]

oh
I though it was some kind of fancy whatever
I got those here at the house
infra red detectors and a central alarm station no big deal
if its that primative I could modify outdoor intruder lights to sound an alarm with a timer although if I want it monitored I have to go with the system

who makes a decent radar system thats not going to cost a fortune

[masalai]

No point in a "call to base" service as they probably do not have "24/7-on-the-water-patrols" - best to just deter with a pizeo, and have a hidden camera that can also take some pictures of the offender/s - but to call your pocket CB or where you have cell-phone service - to call you on your own mobile may be valid - but remember, on the water things go "fsssst" and die more often, - so - no fancy sophistication, just simple, easily replaced/fixed solutions...

Furuno Radar M-1623 would probably do or 24nmi instead of the 16nmi if you must, but the 10minute watch normally and 5 minutes on a night passage... - - I am looking at the
- - The Furuno M-1623 is a high contrast LCD radar designed for pleasure craft. Radar echos are presented in four shades of grey on the 6" Silver Bright LCD. The radr offers detailed pictures of coastline and targets at short ranges thanks to narrower pulselengths and dual IF bandwidths. The waterproof display makes for ideal flybridge or cockpit installations.
- - Standard features include EBL's (Electronic Bearing Line), EVRM (Electronic Variable Range Marker), TLL output (Target Latitude and Longitude), Cursor L/L input/output, Echotrail, Guard Zone Alarm, Anti Clutter Rain, Automatic Control of tuning and sensitivity. These features ensure optimum performance in detecting and ranging targets of interest.
- - The operator can select from Normal, Off-Centre, Zoom and Watchman Mode. In the Watchman Mode the antenna is stopped and the transmission is off while the screen display Nav Data only. The radar wakes up at specified intervals (user may select from 5, 10 or 20 minutes) and operates for a minute. If a target enters the Guard Zone an Audible Alarm sounds and the radar goes into full operating mode, cancelling the Watchman mode. The Alarm may also be set for a target leaving the Guard Zone.
- - You can see a Waypoint on the high contrast LCD when the radar is connected with an optional GPS Navigator. The Waypoint is indicated as a "Lollipop" mark for easy identification and location.
- - Features: - - * High Contrast 6" Silver Bright LCD - - * 13 Range Scales from 0.125nm to 16nm - - * Stylish Compact Radome style antenna with 3 rotation speeds to ensure high update rate of targets whilst using low range scales - - * Low power consumption (8 watts in Watchman Mode) - - * Reverse video feature for effective night viewing - - * Improved short range target detection by using narrower pulselengths and dual IF band bandwidths - - * Zoom Window for close observation of a specific area - - * Guard Zone

[rasorinc]

Just put an electrical charge thru your SS hand rails and have them set off a
loud audio alarm while giving a painful shock then tou can come awake with your auto shotgun.

[Boston]

har har
I was thinking of buying the "street sweeper" automatic shot gut but then I thought of how much kick that thing would have and my theory is I need my favorite if slight girl to be able to pick up any of the weapons in a pinch and get the job done cleanly an precisely
without hitting things she was not aiming at
including me
a simple slug chucker will do
hell all she has to do is wing em with that thing and its good bye black beard

way to make a suggestion Mas
those things are common cheep and reliable near as I can tell by the articles I just read

~ $1.400 at the discount place

[masalai]

Do your maths as to height above water for the radardome, to pick up an object near max range in a 12ft plus swell, whilst cruising/making passage for example a 60ft to 80ft fishing boat out trawling... - I would guess at around 24 ft a.s.l...

[Boston]

well that boat did come with a traditional ( marconi ) radio mast on it
looks about 25' off the water to the cross T's

on a whole other note


http://paradoxfound.com/images/milivolt%20fam.jpg

The milivolt fan is
powered by the
temperature
difference
between the base
of the fan
and the vanes.

one of you geniuses want to explain how this thing works


and here is that pellet mill
makes 350 to 600 lbs an hour from sawdust

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d192/Ahshucks/PelletMillPortable.jpg

all I would need is the actuall mill part
I can do a PTO from somewhere in my system

[rasorinc]

Boston, when considering genset, consider subaru robin gas or diesel. These are just great engines. I'm putting a 24hp gas in as a lift engine in a hovercraft. I am sold on Subaru and the thrust engine will be a J22 subi or a 2.5 also.
http://www.robinamerica.com/series.aspx?sid=24

[Boston]

I reconsidered
you may have a good point there
on a hot day I might just not want to light a fire
a back up that is conventional is a good idea
and
thats exactly the kind of off the rack easily handled autonomous rig I would have chosen

this company makes some pellet making stuff but its mostly to industrial for what I need

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.agrifeedonlineexpo.com/kimages/178_t.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.agrifeedonlineexpo.com/content.php/28/177/pellet_pros_small_pellet_mills.html&usg=___SuhQHhl825qE4mGGI5C1shk0q4=&h=61&w=82&sz=4&hl=en&start=10&sig2=DM8UCrbsjvo7R7TYWEm_PA&tbnid=em3I1NP1pTrFdM:&tbnh=56&tbnw=75&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dportable%2Bpellet%2Bmill%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&ei=6fvfSaOjE5PwnQfmgPmPDg

[rasorinc]

Subaru's small generator has enough power to run an AC sized to cool a good size room. Would love to see you build this cruiser boat. You certainly have the abilities and I love wood heat and power too. If you can keep the beam at 12' you can put it on a freeway W/O pilot cars. Just flags and a wide load sign. That does have advantages which are unknown at this time.
How about combining these 2 threads into one and call it BOSTON"S BOAT....................................

[Boston]

The Thermal Engine Corporation Introduces Heat Wave, an electricity-free wood stove fan.

I thought this thing was just slick

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d192/Ahshucks/SterlingHeatWaveStoveFan.jpg

Madison, Alabama, USA -- The Thermal Engine Corporation has released its new product; the Heat Wave wood stove fan. The Heat Wave stove fan offers wood/pellet stove owners added comfort, convenience and savings with a fan that is placed directly on top of a hot surface and circulates the warm air up to 300cfm (cubic feet per minute) using only the heat radiated by the stove as its power source. Use of the Heat Wave increases stove heating efficiency by up to 35%. The maintenance-free Heat Wave will run indefinitely while atop a hot surface while not costing a penny to operate. The Heat Wave is backed by a full lifetime warranty.

The Thermal Engine Corporation is a research and development corporation in Huntsville, Alabama. TEC organized to develop, manufacture, and sell high-quality consumer products based upon technologies using other than conventional energy systems.

the original lines are drawn at 12' beam but that was a real early model
I showed it earlier with the barrel back and its obviously skinnier than the later widgen or elco 57

but subsequent yachts developed into beams of about 13 to 14'
it adds a lot of room
I might be willing to suffer the extra few thousand to get it to the water for a life time of extra room
its the height that is what I have to watch
cant remember exactly how high they were about 11' but I shipped some windows to Utah once and it was a special permit for the height
would have been worse had I been one inch higher
if you go higher they make you go over all the bridges and move all the lights
so one thing Ill be doing is checking with the shipping company and the highway dep for available routs to nearest deep enough water

I am going to build something
just not exactly sure what yet
I thought if I was a little more transparent with my thought process I would get some great ideas from you guys

thing is I can twist and bend these lines into what beam and length I want so its been a gas deciding what works best
the Widgen design is only 46' and seems a bit cramped but I have made a drawing of it stretched to 62' and it looks great
the flat top design is 57 and could also be stretched to 62' but it ends up pretty tall
although I would ship either with out the superstructure attached but rather as a kit kinda thing that you crane into position once at the destination
both at the 62' end up the same 14.07' beam although Elco made a ww1 version at 80' with a 12' beam
the English called em Cinderella's cuase they lookes so sweet and moves so well
used em for sub chasers and powered them with two 220 hp gas engines

its not really the my boat page as much as Im just trying to find what combination of technologies work best
and I kinda like the old school yachts
simple, durable and dam seaworthy

[rasorinc]

There is a national height standard but state hiways and some railroad bridges may not comply but freeways do. Sorry, but I don't know the exact but believe it is 14' so do not try to pass over covered bridges. Stan You do not want to destroy a landmark bridge. humor

[Boston]

would want to wreck a perfectly good bridge with some dam fool boat would I
I can see it now

and the bill for getting the bridge

on a dbbl drop trailor you can move a 11' load under any highway bridge
and as it just so happens I have a plan to make that hull keel to stem top
exactly
11'0"

and
as it just so happens I have a clear path to the nearest highway with all lights meeting highway standard for clearance

oh just got the materials for this thing

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/bostonpyramidbuilder/03.jpg

[Boston]

This is the other design Im considering

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/consolidated46antiguemotoryachtWidg.jpg

its a consolidated design 46'
Ild be stretching it to 62 if the design wins out over the flat top

nice stoves R
and the winner is

http://www.marinestove.com/pullbackhalibutfrontal.JPG

the reason I liked this one bellow

http://www.appliancist.com/jotul-black-bear-wood-stove-f118.jpg

is that it has lots of room for boiler coils and a large window for that romantic ambiance

[rasorinc]

leave the halibut open and make a snap on screen for love.

[Boston]

good plan

Im sure the girl will understand if I jump up and take a minute to adjust the stove

[masalai]

But, but but the big door is the "oven" is it not? - where is the romance in a little 6" x 4" vision of the endgrain of the burning splits?

[Boston]

Im all about the barbecue anyway
but the stoves are to beautiful not to include at least one
I would prefer to use the pellet stoves to heat with in cold airs

ya I like the boat and have begun a model to help me get everything just right
or at least the hull
Ill build several deck designs and try em on for size so to speak

it will be steam powered with a ($2,000 new for castings and I built a shop a while back for the head machinist at Ball Aerospace so I think Im covered on getting the finishing touches on it ) 200+ hp steam engine with 1050 ft/lb torque
so Ill probably run twin screws off of a single engine with that much torque
the engine is reversible and like electric has good torque at slow engine speeds so Im debating the need for a transmission
the boilers are DIY and I can get the prints for $32
Ill convert them to pellets and I can buy a pellet mill that fits in the engine room to make the pellets out of just about any kind of dry plant fiber
being a builder I can mill out all the pellets I need in a year in about a week of effort

there will be three wind turbine generators keeping things electrified with a battery bank large enough to run the boat and give me a few hours of auxiliary drive time with a little 17hp elec torquedo

the Sophia Christina is nice but costs me about twice as much to build and operate
pellets are only $200 ton and I could make em free if I had enough sawdust and I bet I have half a ton of sawdust in the trash can now
the boilers burn 1-10 lb an hour each so at full tilt thats 20lb/hr or ~500;b a day
but 4-7 lbs is more like normal operation or roughly half that
the boat originally held 750 gallons of fuel at 7lb a gallon that 2 1/2 tons of fuel and ran a cruising speed of ten knots
at 2 1/2 tons of pellets I could go for about ( 250 lbs a day ) 20 days at ten knots
although I got a funny feeling if I checked that against the BTU potential I might find an error in that logic ( I did )

but the point is that the fuel ( pellets )
can be made out of any dried plant mater you happen do get a hold of
and run for quit a long time on the same weight of fuel
and stash the stuff just about anywhere on board

[masalai]

I think your steam boiler (which should be insulated for efficiencies sake) should be enough.... - It is a boat (I think) and not a back woods cabin... Or am I mistaken again? :D:D:D:D:D

[Boston]

its sorta both a boat and a cabin since Ill be living aboard
well the boiler in the small decorative wood stove would run the balance beam engine which would run an auxiliary set of alternators


http://www.oldengine.org/shows/nta97/jun29_70.jpg

would make a nice attraction piece in the aft cabin when I had quests and needed a little extra power
although it would be slick to leave the aft cabin with only the stove portion of the rig and pipe the steam up to the wheel house were I could have the small engine mounted in some focal point as an entry piece
I could cast a nice housing for a low speed alternator and include it in the pile of workings with a little glass dome over it all to keep dust and fingers out
who knows Im still just working out the major details and not even close to the minor ones yet


some one pointed out and they were right that there should be a conventional powered genset to power things if I dont get enough wind and havent gone anywhere in a while The main engine has more than enough power to run a set of alternators and still drive the boat but thats a lot of engine if all Im doing is floating in a heat wave at the dock and I dont want to light a fire in the boat to run the air conditioning
speaking of which
I need to find a place to hide the air conditioner eventually

If you can keep the beam at 12' you can put it on a freeway W/O pilot cars. Just flags and a wide load sign. That does have advantages which are unknown at this time.

hey Ras I got those disadvantages down
its about 700 miles between me and the Mississippi at st Louis but its a straight shot and dam flat the hole way. The original lines are 12'4" with a 9'7 3/16" strong keel shoe to top of stem
seems like it would be nuts to try and truck it 700 miles when I could just build it by the river in the first place
but just for fun ill contact the guys I usually use and see what they want to haul a 14 wide 10 high and 62 long load down the road to the river
Ive seen oil and gas drilling separation tanks going down the road and those are definitely taller and at least 16 wide
you see em on the back roads in Wyoming sometimes on the flip side of Cheyenne up were they do all the drilling

these things are just spectacular
if Im going to have a steam powered craft then Im going to want something like one of these as a showcase piece

http://www.oldengine.org/shows/nta97/jun29_73.jpg

and ever seen a square gear before
or a wooden piston housing

http://www.oldengine.org/shows/nta97/jun29_72.jpg

had to sneak this one in
just watch the whole thing
and
hang on mates

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[masalai]

Bloody magic... I am lost for words:D:D:D

[Boston]

just for fun I looked up what I can and cant get down the road and found this picture

http://gas2.org/files/2009/02/18-truckloads_2.jpg

thing is 20' wide 20' high and 290' long
it weighs 917,000 lbs and has 90+ tires under it
those two trucks in the back help push

the section of law specifically covering boats transported on the highway system is 31 18 804 and the limmits are 75' ttl vehicle length 12' wide 15' tall ground to top of load
exceed that and its a fifty dollar permit good for up to one year in the state of Nebraska
in Missouri the limits are 105' x12' x 14'6" and a permit is $100

[brian eiland]

sucks cause the fly wheel is so efficient in storing energy
I guess we have some similar 'likes' Boston.

You have some very nice photos of classic motoryachts distributed throughout this thread. I came very close to buying an old ACF (American Car & Foundary) vessel to live aboard when I was in college. The ACF were very similar to the Elco designs.

If you have a lot of similar photos you should consider posting them on another subject thread, either a new one or an existing one of that same subject??

Flywheel energy storage devices:
I made a few references with photos over on this other subject thread

Ship Propulsion & Energy Supply/Management
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-11.html#post85848

Composite Flywheel Structural Improvement
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-13.html#post88966

Bitterly's pioneering & Rosen Brother's work
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-14.html

[Boston]

interesting read Brian
I also looked into flywheels for cars as a way to store solar energy rather than batteries
I used two counter rotating 3' diameter 200lb wheels spinning at about 10,000 rpm
at that speed they could accelerate a one ton car to 70 mph well over 100 times or something like that
was more than enough to get you down the road
I even designed a variable speed transmission 100/1-1/10000 with about four moving parts
never even remotely built it but it was a fun exorcise

course then I realized you dont need the transmission if you think of and build the flywheel like a giant rotor and the central axis as another rotor both within there own stator with the large one doin gthe charging and the small one doing the retrieving
that way you can float it on magnetic bearings and charge it with decent "leverage" and then you can discharge it again with decent leverage from the axis mounted alternator

[masalai]

The funny thing, every step in storing energy has its losses - or - inefficiencies in transfer and holding, some more "expensive" than others, in these losses or "accommodating" costs.

Expect a gyroscopic device (flywheel) to have its own peculiar issues which is why they have not been adopted in devices that move around and about as opposed to being stationary - I am thinking about the case of gyroscopic navigational devices - as I guess there may be issues? - - - A device which can be set to always point to true north. - - So as it is moved around this globe in one direction cabling must be sorted to accommodate this in the "free-locating in gimbals part" - I would like this feeling dispelled? - is it so?

[Frosty]

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/11/science/business-technology-using-spin-to-power-electric-cars.html?sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Boston]

well M rumor in the family is that my uncle who worked at Los alamos national lab invented the laser gyroscope he also invented the holographic spectrogram and a bunch of other stuff but for obvious reasons seldom talked about it

one of the things Im working on lately is a video imaging system that layers individual images from multiple cameras shooting from an array

the problem Im trying to clear up is that in Yellowstone the animal spotters all use these old Swarofski spotting scopes
they are limited to about 60 power because of the heat shimmer

the solution to squinting through a spotting scope is to be starring at a computer reconstruction on a nice big screen of multiple layered images from various camera's that average out the heat flutter and so have significantly better resolution

the individual frames can then be reconstructed back into video form and displayed on a lap top

I got the guys who wrote the original program for the stacking working on rewrighting there program to handle video
and I got the local astronomy club ( president of there club is a friend of mine ) working on the best high speed digital camera telescope combo
another friend of mine was the head machinist at Ball Aerospace who I built a shop for a few years ago and he is working on the array housing and a laser range finding system
basically mounting a laser in the array to help get all the cameras focused

the system basically takes a picture of a real image with the heat shimmer just like the spotting scope
it then combines that with another image and averages out the picture pixel by pixel
if the two shots are taken from even slightly different positions but of an object sufficiently far away then the target should be sufficiently similar to remain consistent in both views
but the heat shimmer should be slightly varied
that variation can be digitally removed
the system then adds another layer and cleans up the picture
I have 6 cameras arrayed in a hexagonal pattern slaved for focus to a central camera with a laser range finder
stack the images enough times and I should be able to remove all traces of heat distortion
Im thinking the system can have lots more uses than just for watching animals in the park
but thats all I want it for
Im givving the idea to the programmers in return for several free systems

if Im lucky I can have one done for my next trip to Yellowstone

in the end no one uses actual gyroscopes anymore at least not in the military
they all use the laser gyroscope systems

[Boston]

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/consolidated46antiguemotoryachtWidg.jpg

ok so back on track for the wind turbines

folks have been getting pretty creative with these things

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thing is you need a little juice while out on the water and wind is more reliable than sunshine in at least some places with the two kinda running in opposite cycles

the turbines as can be seen from that last can be easily and cheaply made and there are countless companies that make the bits and pieces
the wind direction is irrelevant and the vertical fixed axis is more conducive to resist high winds than the conventional design

$500 would build a sweet system at 2,500 watts and 13 amps
$250 to junk yard one
as compared to a sharp 80 watt sollar panel 4.67 amps at $475.00 ea/10
which sounds a lot like you will be buying ten to get that price

SHARP polycrystalline 80W solar kit. Produces up to 4.67 amps at 12VDC. Comes with plug, mounting bracket and screws, battery clamps, voltage tester, quick connectors, and extra wiring. Ideal for boats, RV, 12VDC battery charging, pumps, satellite dishes, and many other applications. Easy dealer or DIY installation. Weatherproof. Multiple panels easily connected. 25-year warranty. Blue silver color. Dimensions: 4"H x 26"W x 51"L. Efficent crystalline cells. FOB our Canadian warehouse. We export to dealers & resellers worldwide. $475.00 Ea/10.

so an auxiliary system to power the bats seems to have made itself self evident

I think several vawt generators could be tastefully added to the after deck area of this basic designed vessel between the cushions attop the aft cabin house
of course they would be held in protective houseings similar to this below

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seems that the power system should also make itself self evident if enough cost benefit analysis is done

one thing having yet to be mentioned it the mass to power ratio of the fuels being compared
diesel or wood pellets

premium grade wood pellets put out around 8300 btu pr pound
diesel 130,500 btu pr gallon at 7.15 lbs per gallon thats 18,252btu per lb for 42C
at $3 gallon that works out to 435 btu per penny for diesel
at $225 a ton for pellets thats 8.89 lbs per $1 or 0.089 lbs per penny
8300 btu x .0889 = pellets 738.0 btu per penny

the weight of that pennies worth of fuel is
diesel 0.024 lb
pellets 0.089 lb

which means it takes `~2x the mass to achieve the same btu potential
so how much fuel did that boat originally carry

http://www.usedboats.com/media/boat_images_ub/1114871/1374769/view/01.jpg

well the 1930 version for which I have lines and specs carried only 300 gallons
or a mas of just a tad under one British ton 2,145

so whats the range
the boat had two 210 hp engines and traveled at a cruising speed of 10 knots and a max speed of 14 knots
the engines were two 4 stroke Cummins 6BT
I get numbers of between 204g per K/hr and 230g per K/hr fuel consumption on that engine
so 1 lb = 454 grams
call it 1/2 lb fuel at 7.15 lbs per gallon .07 gallons
so if 1 hp = 746 watts then 1kw = 1.34hp
if I run the engines full tilt then Im using all 420 hp and consuming 318.19 kw per hour or 22.25 gallons of fuel
if there a linear relationship between the speed an fuel consumed and there probably isnt then Ive got a consumption of 10/14 x 22.25 = 15.89g/h at 10 knots
hmmmm sounds high
looking through a few threads I find on the first page of the Diesel fuel vs gas thread a nifty chart that clearly shows the graph as a function
the actual consumption at say .7% power is about 50% of what it is at max
so range on that boat with 300 gallons of fuel is about 27 hrs or ~270 miles

if I want similar range I would need to stow roughly two tons of pellets or $450 bucks worth as apposed to $900 in diesel and get 270 miles out of the deal

its 1866 miles between New Newfoundland and Portmagee Ireland so if I could stash 15 tons of fuel and had about 9 days to kill I could be sipping martini's in Dublin before the girl even started wondering were I had gone
call it 16 to be on the safe side

sooo how much fuel can that thing hold
im estimating displacement at 85,176 lbs and thats a big huge guess based on 60x13x3.5/2=cubic feet x 62lbs per pound
holly crap I never thought that thing would weigh 42 tons

ok so if it draws 3.5 feet at 42 tons and I jam 16 tons of fuel on board is it going to sink?

basically it should ride about 16 lower in the water fully loaded
looking at the boat and realizing that the stem to water line height is about 6' 7 1/2" Im going to estimate that the water line paint is
surprising enough 18 inches
should float
wont be pretty but it will float

dam
stashing that much fuel would be a pain
( wonder if I could jam enough in for the return trip )

[rasorinc]

Boston, I had a picture I got here of a cat with long vertical blades that appeared to be entwined together. Never could find it or any similar vertical
asis turbine. Just info

[masalai]

rasorinc, - - - Did it look like the blades on the "kostner boat" in waterworld? - sort of like an egg whisk? - fairly efficient system that can be feathered in heavy winds or not needed - not collapsed as in the ww story... - I think I have seen several variations in European sites??? design and shaping of the blades is a bit complex/difficult - allows sailing directly into the wind or on any point but I doubt "faster than the wind".... :D:D

[rasorinc]

Masali, I saw waterworld so long ago I cannot say. I have seen similar things that hang on your patio and shimmer and rotate quite fast. In fact the slightest air movement and they trilwerelled fast. I lost the picture but if you find something please give me a heads up. It was like 3 vertical blades entertwined could have been 5 blades. It sure looked interesting but I've searched to no end trying to find that pic and looking at sites for vertical turbines for something similar. Hope you have better luck. Stan PS those patio hangings might be the way to find something on this.

[rasorinc]

Bos, Lear spent millions trying to design a steam engine for busses. At one time they had a ton of info avaiable on line. As best I remember the problem was getting steam as fast as they needed it--not true in a boat. You might find a wealth on info researching Lears efforts. Just a thought for you. Best, Stan They had several engines running on busses--maybe they would sell you one.--just another thought.

[masalai]

In Bostons post above - the first video below : "...folks have been getting pretty creative with these things..." - - is pretty close to it... Sweedish / Dutch or German???

[Boston]

there are some great sites for engines
I found one for $2,000 is 200 hp and 1050 ft/lbs
at 600 lbs preasure and 1/2 gallon a minute
if you didnt have the ocean handy
it would never work
same company offer's the DIY plans for the boiler that I already have on the way
I need two boilers to run full tilt

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=15&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pioneer.net%2F~carlich&ei=MJHdSeb-GIPOMtDPtdYN&usg=AFQjCNHm8kNx0I569q1slRfLvlWxDuCxKg&sig2=JhQJGHl6WFO74gRnBMk2Rw

[masalai]

Are you now talking of steam generation or use as in an engine driven by steam? remember that is 1.9 litres/minute pure water you must make and convert to superheated steam (114 litres/hour - that is about half a barrel - need a AU$25000 RO-watermaker for that... and how much in wood pellets/hour?

[Boston]

thing boils salt water and all the calculations for fuel consumption are in the thread
there is a devise specifically to remove the residues

[masalai]

and the other biomas in the salt water? Oh well lets hope you are right if you apply this to the final product - just playing "devils advocate" to ensure all bases are covered...

[Boston]

the one Im calculating at the moment is how this thing ended up displacing 42 tons

engine 700
boilders say 1000 each
drive train 500
gensets 1000
wood 7000 bd feet
white oak 4.2 lbs/ board foot
red ceder 2 lbs
cherry 3.25 lbs
for an average of 3.1something
all told 21000 lbs or 10.5 tons wood
seems like it should end up weighing ~20 tons

so how in the world does it end up displacing 42 tons

[masalai]

Re-do with a fresh sheet of paper... :D:D - You may have hit on the reason that option has not proliferated?.....

[Boston]

no I think I got the displacement calculation at least close enough
its when I check the weight of the hull that things seem off
there are three basic kinds of wood going into this thing with each being approximately 1/3 of the ttl and the average weight per board foot of about 3.1 lbs
the hull takes about 7000 board feet
even if I screwed that number up a bunch at 10,000 board feet there would still only be about 30,000 pounds of lumber in the hull and thats not even close to the 85,176 lbs estimated displacement
no way that boilers engines and drive train along with all the kitchen stuff and the gensets and bla bla bla make up for that discrepancy unless there is ballast in the system that I dont know about
so Im doing something wrong and its not got to do with the power source but either my displacement calculation or my estimate of wood used or there being some ballast

sooo how much fuel can that thing hold
im estimating displacement at 85,176 lbs and thats a big huge guess based on 60x13x3.5/2=cubic feet x 62lbs per cubic foot
holly crap I never thought that thing would weigh 42 tons

ok so if it draws 3.5 feet at 42 tons and I jam 16 tons of fuel on board is it going to sink?

basically it should ride about 16 lower in the water fully loaded
looking at the boat and realizing that the stem to water line height is about 6' 7 1/2" Im going to estimate that the water line paint is
surprising enough 18 inches
should float
wont be pretty but it will float

[masalai]

get a copy of freeship or delftship (free versions on GPL licence or the russian equivalent http://freeship-plus.pisem.su/indexEN.html but use "firefox" and set it to stop unauthorised stuff being installed - I use linux so am not really bothered by stuff trying to infect windows... all three are essentially the same but will not export to each other and most on this net use freeship 2.6 which may be available for download from SourceForge.net these will help you draw the waterlines and automatically give you displacement.... just get the lines to look similar with key distances as your markers.... the drawing and other scales can be preset to metric or "imperial" - learning this will keep you off the net for a couple of months :D:D:D

[Boston]

well Ive got the lines so all I need to do is put in the parameters I guess
Ill check it out but when I check it against other ships of similar design and length they are all in the ball park of that 42 tons displacement

[brian eiland]

...Expect a gyroscopic device (flywheel) to have its own peculiar issues which is why they have not been adopted in devices that move around and about as opposed to being stationary - I am thinking about the case of gyroscopic navigational devices - as I guess there may be issues? - - - A device which can be set to always point to true north. - - So as it is moved around this globe in one direction cabling must be sorted to accommodate this in the "free-locating in gimbals part" - I would like this feeling dispelled? - is it so?
As noted by Boston above, and in some of the literature I had accumulated (can't find at the moment), the suggesting to counteracting the gyro effect is to build the flywheels in counter-rotating pairs.

Multiple pairs of smaller units could cancel out gyro effects

[Frosty]

Some years ago I offered an idea of a spinning flywheel inside a keel to offer stability. The idea was poo poo'd now that someone else suggests flywheels being counteractive to motion it seems to be attracting credibility.

[Boston]

unfortunately in many cases when a significant change or advancement is proposed its often ridiculed usually by people who have a life of experience in the field
there are countless examples of this in science
I actually didnt propose a flywheel inside a keel
just a pair of flywheels storing solar energy as apposed to batteries
but I kinda like the idea at least for wave piercers

so I calculated the displacement of a semi displacement hull by multiplying the length at wl beam at wl and draft and thendividing that by 2 ( which was my guess as to what % the average hull section took up in a section of equal but square proportions at the largest section
it may if anything have been slightly larger but for argument sakes it seems about right
yet it does not (no mater how you slice it) add up to the weight of the boats components
so what are the chances they ballasted this boat?

http://www.asiyachtworld.com/elco/elco1.JPG

[Luckless]

Do you really think you can safely store more power in flywheels for any length of time, and have it any more efficient or cost effective than a chemical battery? You would also have to put up with the noise of them, and I'm sure they would be far more costly and hard to repair than swapping out old cells from your battery.

[masalai]

Boston, draw the stations on graph paper and count the squares for each station (BELOW THE WATERLINE) that will give you the cross section area, then multiply that by the distance to the next station then add those volumes together after adjusting for truncation in the hullform (a quick and dirty way would be to average the area between those two stations then multiply by that distance between them for the volume displaced there...

A bit slow and tedious, but lacking the number-crunching capacity of a cad program, the easiest way out... I did it in the early stages of my modeling research as a secondary check to confirm other results... - - the model in my gallery had a design displacement of 6.5 tonnes but the model equivalency was nearer 11.5 (built too heavy)...

[Boston]

actually flywheels are the most efficient form of energy storage known
and they are silent when run in a vacuum on magnetic bearings
as for safety they are a time bomb just waiting to go off
imagine over several million foot pounds of energy in motion say 10,000 rpm at 3' diameter and 200 lbs
that thing would demolish everything it hit for about five minutes before it even thought about slowing down
not safe at all brother
thats the problem with em
they're a time bomb
and no I have most of the resources I would need to machine em out myself
its the materials is all Ild need to spring for and thats dirt cheep
hell I can do em out of titanium if I want to go for higher rpm's but Ill stick with under 20,000 rpm and go with chrome molly
its cheep and strong enough
eats cutting heads though

the basic answer to your question is that if there were a way to deal with the gyroscopic tendencies toword axial stabilization
then it would work fine
for instance in a wave piercing design
but in a design meant to roll with the seas you would be wasting valuable energy every time you played with the moment of rotation
or whatever thats called

Mas
I already did that and Im sure I got it close but I still come up with about 42 tons displacement
Im building a scale replica to keep me amused till I get things rolling and so I already have the sections copied to graph paper
waiting glass for my new modeling table as I figured I might as well start out with a bomb place to do the model
cherry framework under a piece of 3/4 inch etched and edged glass
Ill cut the lower edge dead straight and use it as a T guide for the drafting part and then hook a piece of homosote over it for the building part

its got to be ballast
I just cant think of anything else it would be

Im just going to call the guy who has one for sale and ask him

ps
that last picture is of the exact lines I have with the slight barrel back to it
its a 1928 model
Im debating keeping or loosing the barrel back

[rasorinc]

Bos, where did you come up with 7,000 BF? That is also 7,000 LF of 2 x 6.
Are you going to crib frame it like the Ark? Best, Stan

[Boston]

traditional plank on frame
I got the scantlings for it and worked up an estimate from there
maybe I screwed it up
Ill go check my numbers again but I cant be that far off
and no
board feet and lineal feet are two completely different animals

[masalai]

Boston, usual position (D.A.), so - if you are NOT sailing, why permanent ballast? - OK if it is temporary (water) ballast when fuel and other stores get low, so as to hold lines & designed efficiencies - new thing for me in relation to mono power when "hull speed" is all that is desired....?

[rasorinc]

60' long by 10' high = 600 X 2 +1200 LF + transon 15' x 10' + 150 LF
adds up to 1,350 BF of 2 x 6 x 2 or 2,700 BF + another 150 total 2,850BF so if you double plank it in 2 x 6 you have 5,700BF. Your wood count is off base. Best, Stan

[Luckless]

actually flywheels are the most efficient form of energy storage known


Really? And just how long can you store the energy, and how much are you spending on it? I know they look great on paper, but there are many, many problems with current ones.

I've only ever seen existing ones that are designed for short term, high energy storage, acting more as a buffer than as a 'battery'. Something between a capacitor and a storage cell. Are there ones that actually run well on magnetic bearings that are permanent magnets? The few I've worked with (For massive machinery) used a high powered electromagnet baring to be properly balanced.

[Boston]

traditional plank on frame
I got the scantlings for it and worked up an estimate from there
maybe I screwed it up
Ill go check my numbers again but I cant be that far off
and no
board feet and lineal feet are two completely different animals

W Oak
ribs
1860 board feet ( +20% ) average free board of 6' + 13' beam = 25' each at the widest point at 1 1/4 x 1 1/4
keel
550 board feet ( actual 475 ) 4.5" x 18" average height over 68'
stringers
200 board feet ( + 20% )
bilge clamp
120 board feet ( actual )
bilge keel ( not sure I need them but Ill add it in for now ) 4"x6" x 60'
240 board feet
3 keelson's not actually necessary but we used to do it all the time
360 board feet ( actual )
garboards
150 board feet ( + 30% )
floors 300 board feet ( actual)
beems and carlins
500 board feet ( actual )
shelves and clamps
160 board feet ( actual )

white oak 4,140
and just for fun I went way overboard on those estimates
only thing I think I missed was the knees and I can go them out of scraps
ok I missed the 4x4 frame to the wheel house and a beam or two also in the wheel house area

red ceder
1600 board feet if I went with the 5/4 planking they had on it 26x50
but Im kinda silly about building heavy so Im going with 8/4 so x 1.75
and call it
2,800

cherry exterior
decks 5/4
600 board feet ( + 20% )
wheel house raised panel
1000 board feet 4/4 ( + 30% )
aft cabin house
1000 board feet 4/4 ( + 30% )

cherry
2,600

4140
2800
2600
--------
9,540 board feet if I really try and waste wood

at an average weight of say 3.1 lbs per board foot = 29,574 or 14.8 short tons
I could throw another say thousand feet in of WO and Cherry and still only be at way less than half of what this thing is supposed to weigh

oh and I forgot the cherry railings and guard rails
doesnt mater weight doesnt add up no mater how you look at it

its miles from the 42 tons displacement I get when I calculate for volume displaced

[rasorinc]

In 2 x 6 BF and LF are the same, It just seems like a huge amount of wood.
Hard to believe there is that much in it from the picture. the 2 x 6 are nominal dimensions

[Boston]

Stan
you are so right
I completely read that wrong
my bad

I posted some numbers and although I went way overboard on it I was trying any way I could to come up with 42 tons
Im thinking old Roby used to always say add up the wood and double it and you should get about the displacement after you add all the engines and such
so if I can get the hull materials to weigh in at 21 tons then it will all make sense but its not even close


flywheels

The California Energy Commission (CEC) recently announced that a 100-kilowatt (kW) scale-power flywheel energy storage system designed to enhance the state's electricity grid is now one step closer to commercialization. The Smart Energy Matrix system recently completed the Critical Project Review -- a significant milestone that assesses the status of research contracts and evaluates the field performance of the flywheel system.

"California has made a significant commitment to deploy renewable energy placing greater demands on the state's electric grid. Technologies such as Beacon's flywheel-based energy storage system provide attractive options to address these emerging issues."

-- John Geesman, California Energy Commission, commissioner
Developed by Beacon Power, the Smart Energy Matrix system is a prototype for the company's planned 20-megawatt (MW)-level commercial system.

"The application of new energy storage technologies is a high priority as California upgrades its electricity grid system. The Energy Commission is pleased at the results of Beacon's testing and the potential for use of this technology in California," said Energy Commissioner John Geesman. "California has made a significant commitment to deploy renewable energy -- placing greater demands on the state's electric grid. Technologies such as Beacon's flywheel-based energy storage system provide attractive options to address these emerging issues."

A flywheel energy storage system draws electrical energy from a primary source, such as the utility grid, and stores it in a high-density rotating flywheel. The flywheel system is actually a kinetic, or mechanical battery, spinning at very high speeds (>20,000 rpm) to store energy that is instantly available when needed.

Upon power loss, the motor driving the flywheel acts as a generator. As the flywheel continues to rotate, the generator supplies power to the customer load. Performance is measured in energy units indicating the amount of power available over a given period of time.

Typical single-flywheel systems are intended for standby power applications. The Smart Energy Matrix flywheel design proposes an integrated system of 10 higher-power (25 kWh) flywheels, interconnected in a matrix to provide energy storage for utility-grade applications.

"We're grateful for the consistent and effective support we've received from the Energy Commission throughout the project," said Bill Capp, Beacon Power president and CEO. "We're also very pleased that our technology has been certified by the California ISO, which we announced [last week]. These two important authorities, in conjunction with the U.S. Department of Energy, are demonstrating energy policy leadership and vision. They understand that new technologies will be required to maintain grid reliability while achieving ambitious goals for the deployment of renewable energy and the reduction of carbon emissions."

In addition to the environmental and transmission benefits of flywheel technology, current research at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratories indicates that 10 MW of fast-responding flywheel energy could provide the grid with the equivalent energy of 20 MW or more of traditional slow-responding power plant energy.

The California Energy Commission contracted with Massachusetts-based Beacon Power in 2005, to develop and install a system to demonstrate the potential benefits of using flywheel energy storage for frequency regulation of the grid, a service required by all grid operators. The Department of Energy (DOE) Energy Storage Systems Program Office, through Sandia National Laboratories, is also providing technical assistance to the Energy Commission for this contract.

The system first became operational in 2005 and completed a series of performance tests and technical assessments prior to a six-month field trial phase on August 1, 2006.

Field demonstration testing of the Smart Energy Matrix will continue until January 31, 2007. After that, the CEC and DOE will review all the performance data collected over the last six months period and release a public report summarizing the testing program, results and recommendations.




Flywheels are an ancient technology right out of “The Flintstones,” so who would have thought that Info-Tech Research would name them one of the 10 savviest IT investments for 2009? How did such a primeval implement make the transition from James Watt’s steam engine to today’s data center? Simple: Flywheels happen to be a very efficient means of energy storage—think of them as mechanical batteries—and UPS vendors have discovered flywheels have some palpable advantages over traditional, voltaic cell chemical energy storage.

According to Info-Tech’s 2009 tech preview, “One of the least-known but most valuable green products for the data center is the flywheel, which essentially stores energy for use when power is interrupted. It is a clean and cost-effective alternative to battery-based uninterruptible power supplies.” Yet IT managers tend to be cold-eyed realists. Darin Stahl, lead analyst at Info-Tech, notes that although green initiatives may have the attention of upper management, his IT clients are far more interested in saving money than saving the planet. Although flywheels certainly eliminate the environmental hazards associated with large lead-acid UPS batteries, he says the bigger reason flywheels aroused the interest of IT managers is their financial and maintenance advantages.

Theory Of Operation

When most think of a flywheel, they envision the traditional potter’s wheel, a heavy stone disk artists use to maintain consistent rotation without sustained effort. To understand how flywheels work and some of the trade-offs in their UPS implementations, it’s necessary to dredge up some high school physics. Using Newton’s Se cond Law (which describes the relationship between the force of an object and its momentum) and some simple algebra, the kinetic energy of an object in motion is seen as proportional to its mass and the square of its velocity. When applied to rotating objects, the velocity is expressed in revolutions per minute.

Thus, a flywheel’s energy storage can be increased by either increasing the mass or the rotational velocity; however, doubling the mass only doubles the energy, while doubling the velocity quadruples it. This leads to a segmentation of the flywheel marketplace, with some vendors opting for heavy, low-speed devices, while others are focusing on systems with higher revolutions per minute.

The energy needed to initiate and maintain a spinning flywheel comes from the electric grid, a form of inefficiency known as standby loss. During a power glitch, kinetic energy is converted back into electricity using a conventional rotor/stator electric motor.

Advantages Of Flywheels

Most data center UPSes store power in lead-acid batteries—the same 150-year-old technology used for starter motors in cars—which are large, heavy, and filled with toxic material. As power demands in the data center continue to escalate, UPS batteries have become gargantuan, with Stahl finding many of his clients concerned about the ability of their facilities to support the immense weight. For example, a relatively small 100kVA weighs about 6,000 pounds, while 1,000kVA systems may top out at 5 tons or more. A comparably sized high-speed flywheel system is about one-tenth the size, according to Frank DeLattre, chief marketing officer at VYCON (www.vyconenergy.com). Low-speed designs, while still less than half the footprint of batteries, are nevertheless comparably heavy, albeit much less expensive than their smaller, high-speed competitors, according to Martin Olsen, vice president of business development at Active Power (www.activepower.com).

DeLattre feels that a bigger advantage of flywheels is their reliability. He claims that the MTBF for battery UPS systems is about 2,500 hours, while flywheels are roughly 20 times that. Couple the lower reliability with a battery’s much shorter life cycle and DeLattre says flywheels offer a more predictable backup energy source. Because batteries degrade with each use, DeLattre says, “You really don’t know if a battery is good until you try to use it.” Flywheels also require less ongoing maintenance according to Stahl, and because they don’t contain hazardous materials, it’s much easier and cheaper to dispose of them.

Factoring in space savings, energy efficiency, lower maintenance and disposal costs, and longer life span, vendors claim flywheel systems often can pay for themselves within the first year. Low-speed systems, such as those from Active Power, carry only about 10 to 15% price premium over battery units, according to Olsen.

Disadvantages Of Flywheels

So what’s not to like about a space-saving, low-maintenance, environmentally friendly technology with significant ROI? Unfortunately, flywheels cannot exactly match batteries for sustained energy discharge. Although they store an amazing amount of energy in a small space, flywheels can only supply power for a very short time—about 10 to 20 seconds vs. five to 15 minutes for batteries.

Yet this discrepancy isn’t as bad as it seems. According to FEMP (Federal Energy Management Program), “The vast majority of power disturbances last for five seconds or less.” It notes that, “Today, many UPS systems are integrated with fuel-fired generators that can come up to full power within 10 seconds. Thus, the typical DC flywheel system, designed to provide 15 seconds of full load power, could be substituted for batteries in UPS systems with fuel-fired generators.”

Applying Flywheels

According to FEMP, flywheels are generally more reliable than batteries, with lower annual operation and maintenance expenses. It recommends flywheels for harsh operating environments not conducive to efficient battery operation, and, because of their smaller size, in conditions where floor space is limited and expensive. However, FEMP states, “A flywheel alone will not provide backup power for a period long enough to allow an orderly process shutdown in most cases.” Thus, flywheels shouldn’t be used in isolation—in other words, without a backup generator or auxiliary batteries.

Given current environmental sensitivities, flywheels are undoubtedly subject to a fair amount of greenwashing, but although they are certainly more environmentally sound than several tons of lead batteries, flywheels also have compelling technological, operational, and financial benefits, particularly when deployed in larger data centers outfitted with fuel-fired generators.

by Kurt Marko

The importance of energy storage devices has been increased due to the demand of using energy more efficiently as peoples are getting more concerned about the resource or environmental problems. For example, the surplus energy from windmill electricity generation should be stored to somewhere; otherwise, the energy will be just wasted.
Flywheel energy storage systems are one of energy storage devices. They are nothing but rechargeable batteries. They store energy mechanically in the flywheel rotor by rotating the rotor while as chemical batteries stores energy electrically. When we want to use the stored energy in the rotor, a generator is used to convert mechanical energy to electrical energy.
Since the flywheel system is a very efficient energy storage device, it can be used for various applications. Hybrid electric vehicles could be one example of flywheel applications. Hybrid vehicles contain an power unit such as internal combustion engines and electric motors and an energy storage unit such as flywheels or chemical batteries. When vehicles are cruising at a constant speed like 60 mph, relying on only internal combustion engines can be sufficiently efficient way. However, when we need to accelerate vehicles, internal combustion engines tend to use more fuel than needed. Therefore, if we use both internal combustion engine power and auxiliary power from flywheels or chemical batteries, we can save considerable amount of energy to get to a certain speed. Currently, chemical batteries are usually used for hybrid vehicles, however, flywheel systems can substitute chemical batteries for the following reasons.
Flywheel systems are not sensitive to temperature since they are operating in a vacuum containment. Therefore, the hybrid vehicle with flywheel systems can run without any problem at very cold or hot areas. And, flywheel systems can store more energy per system weight compared to chemical batteries, which enables the hybrid vehicle to have more space and less weight while performing same as the hybrid vehicle with large size of chemical batteries.
Besides hybrid vehicles, there are many applications which need more efficient energy storage devices such as flywheel energy storage systems as in the following figure.

[rasorinc]

Your estimates on wood are equal to a 3,000 sq. ft. wood floor home with 1 x 6 cedar siding and standard 16" on center framing. I just cannot believe there is that much lumber in that boat. It is unreal to me. Not saying you are wrong maybe telling myself never estimate lumber in a boat. Best, Stan

[Boston]

oh I overestimated
I went with largest dimension frame and for all frames and widest point on each beam for all beams
same on decking with only the beam and length considered and not the shape
same on all cabin house paneling and that keel is kinda hefty at 4.5 x 18 over the full length including the stem area
although the ribs Ill probably enlarge from the called out numbers of 1 1'/4 x 1 1/4 since I enlarged everything else
Ill work it all out and pay someone to check it before I start buying but
I definetly overestimated
what its showing me is that I did something wrong in one of two things
displacement or ballast
cause the rule of thumb old Roby used to use was always high
displacement hardly ever equals twice the hull weight
so either that hull has ballast or I calculated the displacement way wrong
and Im pretty sure I got it right
frankly Im ok with ballast but its kinda a surprise

if I have to ballast that thing Im putting a huge brew kettle in it

[brian eiland]

Really? And just how long can you store the energy, and how much are you spending on it? I know they look great on paper, but there are many, many problems with current ones.

I've only ever seen existing ones that are designed for short term, high energy storage, acting more as a buffer than as a 'battery'. Something between a capacitor and a storage cell. Are there ones that actually run well on magnetic bearings that are permanent magnets? The few I've worked with (For massive machinery) used a high powered electromagnet baring to be properly balanced.

...excerpt from a posting of mine under, "New propulsion sytems for ships"..

One big solution to our energy equation has to be 'storing energy'. We just don't have a lot of good storage capabilities, particularly as related to electrical energy. Many times we are forced to use as we generate it. Think of the possiblities if we could really efficiently store electrical energy. Our sun is a fantastic source of energy as it bombards us with it every day. But our collectors (solar cells) just don't have the capacity to give us the energy density we need to power up a lot of our energy consuming items. And we need better storage methods than our current crop of batteries.

I have always had an interest in 'super flyweels' as a storage method ever since I learned of their original development by Johns Hopkins Labs years ago doing my college days. Hopkins wanted to put BIG flywheels (at the time low-tech weighted wheels) in underground chambers at power plants and have the excess energy available at night from these plants spin up the wheels so they could be called upon the next day during peak periods rather than turning on a 'peaking turbine'.

And I began to follow their re-development in the late 90's as several parties sought to re-invent them for auto use. I was real excided when Chrysler sought to enter La Mans with a flywheel powered car.

I still have a lot of old material stored away on this subject (before my computer days). But I believe if you simply 'google' "super flyweels" you will get a lot of info, for instance:


http://www3.ntu.edu.sg/home5/PG01898441/flywheel.htm

...more here
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-11.html#post85848 posting#163

[Frosty]

A spring is a good store of energy and 100%efficient. Push with 50lbs and you got 50lbs, it don't go away and will stay for years.

The uneveness of the road could be used to store spring energy with a ratchet type of gadget. Like absorbing wave energy. But by road energy the faster you go the more energy you make.

I hav'nt invented it yet infact I just thought of it then.

[Boston]

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg

ok how about back on track with a good question from Masali that frankly I should have answered better

Are you now talking of steam generation or use as in an engine driven by steam? remember that is 1.9 litres/minute pure water you must make and convert to superheated steam (114 litres/hour - that is about half a barrel - need a AU$25000 RO-watermaker for that... and how much in wood pellets/hour?

steam consumption on the engine being considered is 1000 to 2000 lbs an hour

I will have a steam recovery system to recycle at least some of he heat and steam using a simple condenser coil and relief valve in a closed loop system

although the system comes with provisions to allow for using sea water I think it best for the durability of the engine to go with a steam recovery system and use distilled water

so you were right Mas about the water maker
I need one but not as large as you might thing
it all depends on the efficiency of the recovery system


the pellet consumption rate at full tilt or about 14knots as it compares to the power requirement of the original twin diesels is


so whats the range
the boat had two 210 hp engines and traveled at a cruising speed of 10 knots and a max speed of 14 knots
the engines were two 4 stroke Cummins 6BT
I get numbers of between 204g per K/hr and 230g per K/hr fuel consumption on that engine
so 1 lb = 454 grams
call it 1/2 lb fuel at 7.15 lbs per gallon .07 gallons
so if 1 hp = 746 watts then 1kw = 1.34hp
if I run the engines full tilt then Im using all 420 hp and consuming 318.19 kw per hour or 22.25 gallons of fuel
if there a linear relationship between the speed an fuel consumed and there probably isnt then Ive got a consumption of 10/14 x 22.25 = 15.89g/h at 10 knots
hmmmm sounds high
looking through a few threads I find on the first page of the Diesel fuel vs gas thread a nifty chart that clearly shows the graph as a function
the actual consumption at say 70% power is about 50% of what it is at max
so range on that boat at cruising speed of 10 knots with 300 gallons of fuel is about 27 hrs or ~270 miles

sooo how much fuel can that thing hold
im estimating displacement at 85,176 lbs and thats a big huge guess based on 60x13x3.5/2=cubic feet x 62lbs per pound
holly crap I never thought that thing would weigh 42 tons

premium grade wood pellets put out around 8300 btu pr pound
diesel 130,500 btu pr gallon at 7.15 lbs per gallon thats 18,252btu per lb for 42C
at $3 gallon that works out to 435 btu per penny for diesel
at $225 a ton for pellets thats 8.89 lbs per $1 or .0889 lbs per penny
8300 btu x .0889 = pellets 738.0 btu per penny

holly shit Batman
pellets are great


the weight of that pennies worth of fuel is
diesel 0.024 lb
pellets 0.089 lb

which means it takes `~2x the mass to achieve the same btu potential
so how much fuel did that boat originally carry


so to get the same BTU takes about twice the mass of pellets than diesel although the cost is only half per BTU
about
the actual number is
.089/.024=3.7 per penny mass
738/435=1.7 per penny btu
3.7/1.7=2.18 times the mass of diesel for the same btu of pellets

so for the same range I would need 2.18 times the mass of diesel in pellets
the original boat held 300 gallons at 7.15 lbs each thats 2,145lbs
and had a range of about 270 miles
so it would take about 2.18x2,145lbs=
4,676lbs of pellets to do the same

If I wanted to hop the pond in one fell swoop I would need to go from

its 1866 miles between New Newfoundland and Portmagee Ireland so if I could stash 15 tons of fuel and had about 9 days to kill I could be sipping martini's in Dublin before the girl even started wondering were I had gone
call it 16 to be on the safe side

1866/270=6.9
6.9x4,676=32,316lbs or 16.17 short tons and Ild want "tons" extra to attempt the trip with
call it 20 short tons of fuel pellets

should take about 187 hours depends on currents and wind or about 8 days to make the crossing
an a lot of stoking

could be done but Ild be riding about 16" low in the water when I started out if I didnt unballast the ship any

basically means water ballast is going to be my best bet

hmmmmmm
187 hours and 32,316 lbs = 173 lbs an hour at 10 knots
so I need a 1500 lb capacity hopper to get a decent nights sleep

http://members.pioneer.net/~carlich/RSE/RSEfaqs-anim.gif

[Frosty]

Cripes this thread is getting as bad as that global warming thing.

Ooooh I do miss the Drivel thread, it did have its purpose you know.

[Boston]

no worries mate
we're all in it for a good time anyway
and no
nothing was as bad as the global warming thread
which I am taking a vacation from by the way
I hate agnotism ( Agnotology )
just think steam power
and all will be well

but I am trying to keep the thread on track aside from the occasional pleasant distraction so dont worry at all about bringing in the finer details of goofing off

the idea is to find the most economical alternative energy source to operate this boat and its subsystems on while still having a practical machine that can be run with a minimum of technical skill or special knowledge

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/uploads/elco57.jpg

looks like a pellet boiler and a steam engine with vawt generators is the trick
with I conventional genset as a back up converted to alcohol posibly running a torquido 17 hp auxiliary

would be so cool to own a big steam launch

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having analyzed the issues of fuel economy and operating details surrounding steam engines, they are not insurmountable
with fuel economy and engine and drive train cost being actually less than conventional
also fuel is carbon neutral and you can actually make your own with machinery readily available cheep cheep cheep

even the vawt gensets are cheep to DYI

steam recovery means you recycle some of the heat and the efficiency of the boilers can be as high as 88% to 92% to start with let alone recycled preheated water

[Boston]

so I supose the next best question is
what kind of sea state could a steam system handle

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turns out 6 tons a square meter is about the force a 12 meter wave is capable of
soooo can I build this hull to withstand that
probably not but Ill see what I come up with

but first Ill go for an easy one
can the boiler system be designed to not spill its fire tray if capsized for a short period of time
and shut down automatically if for a long period of time
obviously it can
the shut off system can be a simple automated kill switch that in conjunction with a spill proof fire tray
then its only mater of a pressure relief valve slaved to the same kill switch

its the capsized for a short period of time and still comes up running that is going to be the tricky part
shuffling the fire tray is likely to adversely effect the coal bed and could put out the fire
and the feeder is gravity based

any ideas

oh speaking of dumb ideas I thought for about a split second today what a great idea it would be to steam alcohol since its a closed system anyway why not use a fluid that boils at a lower temperature
light bulb came on eventually
explosion

oh and one ton of pellet fuel takes up 64 cu ft
or 4x4x4
I can fit 7 tons in the engine room alone and still comfortably walk around the mechanical for a typical range of 808 miles

[masalai]

Arrrummmm quiet...... ? (I was thinking here on sea state) and glass breakage and so on????

[Boston]

lazy day
I did get the keel proportions down though
and Ive already got the lines rescaled to 13' beam and 57' length
and the stations done
next to loft the keel mold
and start figuring out how much Ild have to beef it up to handle a decent sized wave

as for the roll resistance of the pellet boiler Im thinking a self lighting system would take care of relighting the boiler should things go wrong
along with the live pressure control valve being properly set
also the condenser coils might be exposed from there coolant for some period of time so a pressure shut off switch on the return steam would be a must
the pellets are held in closed hoppers so there would be a slight interruption in the feed screw
and the boiler water pump would probably get interrupted so the pump would need to be of the self prime type
hmmmmm
what am I missing
( hopefully the explosion )

doesnt look real good for coming up running should the boiler get rolled

[Boston]

one thing that did come up in the thread that was interesting and deserved a mention is gyroscopes

they store energy dam nicely
they tend to be good at stabilizing things
case in point camera lenses

they are heavy so they could be used as ballast
and they resist axial reorientation

how about a gyroscopicly stabilized and powered wave piercing hull form
what would it take to make it work

these guys got the hull form down
but my question is
would it detract from the forward energy of the boat to gyroscopic resist the boats normal dynamic equilibrium

IE
there is a reason race cars have stiff suspension
energy spent in the suspension system is directly subtracted from the forward energy of the vehicle

so would a gyroscopic stabilizing system in this boat result in its going slower
or maybe just result in the loss of rpm in the gyroscope

I think it might and thats why no one is gyroscopicly stabilizing boats


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by the way
that boat was dam noisy and probably smelled like french fries
and the bio diesel was a dam pain in the ass to come up with as well
pretty sure they had a supply shipped to each fueling station rather than try to buy it at destination
unlike the pellets that can be easily made from any dried grass or wood chips with a simple small and stowable device

[Boston]

so in the end it looks like a simple steam engine suggested by Red was the way to go with a pair of boilers being the most efficient way to provide steam as only one need be burning during standard operation ( I think )

the boilers can be fired with wood pellets at a cost nearly half of what it would cost per btu in diesel fuel

the fuel can be made with a simple stowable device that could be run on electric from the wind turbines

the Vawt generators can augment the steam gensets
with a back up genset converted to fuel alcohol for times when my steam gives up on me
like if I got rolled or something

and a bank of say three gorilla batteries at 1150 amps each
all powering a small auxiliary 17 hp torquedo or pair of torquido's one front one back to help dock the monster
and also powering the pellet mill when I was producing

the pellet mill spits out about 300 to 350 KG pr hour at 22 hp and is fully capable of processing anything from saw dust to wood chips or straw hay
is all kinds of compact and can be run on any pto

http://www.traderscity.com/board/userpix7/5560-diesel-pellet-mill-1.jpg

best folks
its been fun working it all out with you all
thanks
B

[masalai]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Boston again." - - All too easy, I hope everyone else enjoyed it all as much as I did.... Don't stop now - follow through...

[rasorinc]

Boston, if you have not purchased your white oak lumber yet I would like to make a suggestion on which wood to use for frames. The wood Black Locust
is the strongest hard wood in North America and will not rot no matter what..................Fence post in rainy climates last almost forever without any treatment. have a couple of links I can provide you for detailed info on the wood and a supplier in the state of Washington who has clear, vertical, grain. I alwas try to put a piece or two in each boat so I can tell the owner

"the keel or the skeg is Black Locus" makes for intresting conversations. It is far stronger than W. Oak but is heavier and holds fasteners well and likes epoxy. Great for frames, keels, even stringers and a wood rudder. Skegs also.
let me know if you want additional links and info. Stan you an shrink your demensions to what less than what oak requires
here are2 links anyway http://www.connectedlines.com/wood/wood13.htm back with another http://www.specialtywoods.net/lumber.html

[Boston]

sure send em along

interesting
I just read up on the stuff and although its only a cursory glance the stuff is exactly as you say
low shrinkage and highly rot resistant also dam heavy
if it continues to pass muster and is as rot resistant as you say it might make a great keel as its shock resistance is
as you mentioned superior to white oak

I have about a thousand feet of 8/4 white oak laying in the shop now but I need a lot more

hmmmmm
I dont know shit about Black locust
never worked with the stuff
will have to get some and play with it some

whats it cost
I can get all the white oak I want starting at $2 a foot and going down from there depends on how much I buy

thanks for the idea
B

[rasorinc]

the other link I sent he says 5.00 a BF for clear. In todays market depending on how much your looking for I'll bet it could be had for $3.50 B F. Keels, skegs even rudders and the rot factor is zero W/O epoxy. Slam a piece on a log and your arm will be the broken piece. Better shock resistance than hickory but the great value is zero rot. The stem with a 2x8 of BL would not even have to have plywood sides. It is harder than Hell---all pre-drill. Most people have never heard of the stuff that's why I always put a piece in--makes for good conversation and they usually thank me and are proud to have some on their boat. rudders out of it are far cheaper than bronze.

[Boston]

well you got me on the never used it before
I am humbled having thought I knew wood pretty well

been reading about the stuff since I got your post and it seems to be the real deal
none of my suppliers carry it although I have one that will cut me anything
( pays to always have been a good customer )
I keep reading its not commercially available in the us because of some borer that basically riddles the stuff with holes

if it holds epoxy well and is really all that rot resistant I could be convinced to build the keel out of it as I really want to try my hand at laminating up a keel
in white oak Ild have to build it in timbers but it would be stronger all the way round to have a laminated keel
I was going to forgo glue as much as possible and go traditional all the way

way to throw a wrench into the works mate
now I got to rethink a few things

deal is if I make the keel to strong I could just be adding stress to the stringers and ribs in the event of an impact
like a chunk of ice or worse
so there is some consideration of using similar wood throughout the frame

oh
I read that about the guy with the stuff for 5.50
but I gotta go
got a show to go to
best
B

[rasorinc]

Please do not try to avoid epoxy adhesive. You're rejecting the 21st century.
tell the dentist you want to try it the old fashion way, do not build your boat that way. Why trust fate????????????????????????????????????????????

[Boston]

well I've not ever used it in the past
course that past was a long time in the past and my Grand Dad was about as old school as it gets
but the guy did know how to build a boat no doubt about that
this boat lends itself to traditional construction very well with only a few modifications to bring it up to snuff ( as old Roby would have said )
so I see little need for epoxy in the vessels construction

should I elect to laminate the keel I would be using it, but other than that its use isnt really necessary near as I can see

[masalai]

Oh Boston please join us in the 21st century? I am so confident that epoxy is the best assistant imaginable that I am using it with balsa cored panels and covered with various weights of glass - makes a light strong capsule for us that has a very good survivability capacity... Only use stuff that works with epoxy - NOT kevlar cloth or other plastics....

[Boston]

Im going for interlocking jointery with tree nails and MAYBE glue
its not all that necessary
I think Ill just stay in tonight and work on it
am designing the jointery now along with reworking these lines plans I have for an old Elco once I get the keel lofted Ill begin working on the model
Im not going to do the model as an exact replica (I dont need the wood working practice) but instead use it to get the proportions right
but its the type of joint I select for each location that determines the necessity of glue or not Ill probably glue the joints and not the pins is what its looking like so far.

Ill go with bridled hook scarfs in the keel and keelson timbers and the stringers also oh and in the frames were they pass cleanly over the keel assembly I might splay the frames as they pass the keel area as well. The deck beams will be dovetailed into the shelves and the carlins into the beams. I might use a half blind tenon in the frames to shelf connection which will allow me to slip each frame into the shelf as I go and then Ill be able to slide the deck beams onto the dovetail in the shelf and have it then slip over the half blind on the end of the frame, a few pins later and it would never fall apart. Tricky part will be getting the angle of the cuts to match the curvature of the pieces. although Im still in the early parts of the design faze and things are bound to change.

Ill post the joinery when I get it all figured out and my detail drawings done
B

[masalai]

If the wood is compatible - (some is not) - I would be so bold as to suggest epoxy 2 part stuff as the glue - Manie & Fanie might be better at this, and sheet with a glass-cloth and epoxy to protect the wood and act as a base to glue the copper-powder/epoxy mix for below the waterline - seems to do a good job in boats I have seen done this way - balsa is wood albeit very light and in need of waterproofing (It is porous and will absorb water if not properly sealed)... so is glassed inside and out as well as sealed by 2 part paints / flowcoat etc over the glass...

[Boston]

ya that two part epoxy is looking suspiciously like its going to be the choice

Im not likely to use any fiberglass although Im sure it has its uses
all woods in this build are going to be traditionally water resistant and able to handle water contact for prolonged periods of time. Ill paint the outside but the inside will be oiled and sealed with varnish just like we always used to do and Ill leave most of it exposed in the finish to kinda show off the workmanship and also cause it allows it to air best
One thing I am working on figuring out is if I diagonal plank the hull what gains am I getting if I do or dont glue the layers together
once upon a time they used to just put waterproofing between the layers and never glued it
the hull planking is red ceder so its going to want to get a little wet in order to form that perfect seal
glass would only inhibit the boats ability to breath as well and add undue stress
it also costs a fortune

Im guilty
I want the boat to be a reflection of what has been passed down and not forgotten, although Im sure no one ever used locking jointery throughout a ship as a typical practice, but for my one off, its perfect, I kinda want it to be something I can leave behind for generations to come when its my time.

[masalai]

What is known here as "western red cedar" is/was used in the strip planking or earlier (and heavier) round bilged cats and covered with glass/epoxy outside & glass/flowcoat inside or something like that - eliminated the need to re-caulk regularly and a thinner layer of timber, than I guess you may be intending... - I am out of my depth somewhat there as I only observed a couple of boats in the build stage... I am sure your skills are up to the task - keep us all posted...

[Boston]

thing about glassing in wood is that the wood is impossible to sound or apply any of the other easy inspection methods to and when it is time to replace something you end up ripping the fiberglass off. caulking is not all that necessary on a ceder hull as it swells so nicely it forms its own seal
and if I diagonal the planks it should be even more likely to swell closed as the multiple layers should act like old ceder shingles do and as each layer gets wet it swells and protects the building bellow after that Its pretty much a mater of good joinery and I got a fast and easy method of joinery on the planking that pretty much forms a perfect joint every time

the original skin on that 57 was 1 1/4 ceder but I want mine a little thicker for that crossing Ild love to do ( Ill have storm shutters installed for any serious open water cruising ) so Im thinking two layers of diagonal 1/2" ceder and one at 1" thing is when you plank with ceder and if you need to steam it to fit you have to dry it out again before you apply it or your not doing your best job. IE dont temp screw it hot or you will end up with a gap when it does finally dry out. Im still just working out how I want to skin this thing. I love the idea of stiffening up the hull with some cold molding techniques but we never used to do that so Im just kinda winging it to see how it might work out. Maybe plywood would be in order at this is really easy although ply is got its own issues of longevity that Im not so sure about.

Ill not only keep you all posted but Ill be asking a bunch of stupid questions as well

B

[Boston]

Erik
I didn't find an engine in the 20 to 100 range but I did find one in the 50 to 125 range so I hope that's close enough

the engine would use 535 lbs/hr at 600psi and run to 1500 rpm with a torque range something like 600 ft/lbs

thing would weigh in at about 250 lbs and you would need a boiler and a few other bits and pieces. From what Ive learned you pretty much always want to run these with a closed loop steam system on distilled water with a little oil added to it

castings would run about $1,700 and you'd need to clean em up with a little machining although the company Im thinking of will actually do it for you if you feel like springing for the extra cash for them to do so

but you will abviously also need a boiler
boilers are monotube these days and so there are fewer welds in the system and so less chance of a steam leak. Funny thing about boilers is you will get the most efficiency by using two smaller ones instead of one larger one
depending on if your actually trying to get anywhere or if your just out cruising.

problem is two smaller boilers that may not run that thing up to its full potential would weigh in at 250 lbs each and they are only about 40 hp a crack so you get more fuel efficiency but less go with two smaller and heavier total boilers

the larger boiler weighs in at 350 lb and would run it like a banshee however you would have less ability to tone down the fuel consumption with the larger boiler rather than several smaller ones the gain being you have a lighter set up

hope that helps
B

if you really want to get tricky you can determin the amount of fuel you will need at any given hp with this groovy calculator I found

http://www.mckenziecorp.com/boiler.htm

100 boiler hp = 6.9 gallons an hour or 3,347,900 btu/hr at 70 psi = 23.6 gallons an hour and Im doing something wrong here

1 boiler hp = 33,475 btu/hr = amount of energy to evaporate 34.5 lbs of water at 212 F in one hour
or 100 hp = 3,450 lbs of steam pr hour
I ton of pellets = 16,800,000 btu pr ton depends on what wood you made the pellets out of
white oak is 22,000,000 per ton
diesel has 147,000 pr/ga =20,000 pr/lb

that would mean your going through one ton of fuel in about five hours
no way is that correct
hmmmm

or the frightening thing
maybe it is correct and I just missed something in the last five pages of calculations or something

ok so here's the Duty charts for the big 4 cylinder steam engine

http://members.pioneer.net/~carlich/RSE/RSEengines-v4highpowertorque.jpg

it will run continuously at 150 hp and 895 lb/ft
cruise at 100 hp and 710 lb/ft on 410 psi and 740 rpm
and I estimate it will use 2000 lbs of steam pr hr at 200 hp
call it 1500 at 100 hp

so hmmmmm what does that work out to in terms of btu pr hour

ok so there are four different ways you can measure horse power
metric = 10 HP
Mechanical = 10,000 MHP
electrical = 10 EHP
boiler = 1 BHP

and these guys are some grumpy old spuds who produce this engine
not real conducive to stupid questions but
its worth a shot
I need to ask em if there engines are rated at boiler BHP or Mechanical MHP cause there is a slight difference in fuel consumption
I knew there was something up with one tone of fuel in five hours


Horsepower (hp or HP or Hp) is the name of several non-SI units of power. It was originally defined to allow the output of steam engines to be measured and compared with the power output of draft horses. The horsepower was widely adopted to measure the output of piston engines, turbines, electric motors and other machinery. Different regions adopted different definitions of the unit. Most countries now use the SI unit watt for measurement of power.
The definition of a horsepower unit is different in different applications; application outside of the context of a particular definition will be inaccurate.
One mechanical horsepower of 550 foot-pounds per second is equivalent to 745.7 watts
A metric horsepower of 75 kgf-m per second is equivalent to 735.499 watts
A boiler horsepower is used for rating steam boilers and is equivalent to 34.5 pounds of water evaporated per hour at 212 degrees Fahrenheit, or 9809.5 watts
One horsepower for rating electric motors is equal to 746 watts
A Pferdestärke is a name for a group of similar power measurements used in Germany around the end of the 19th century, all of about one metric horsepower in size. [1] [2]
An ALAM or SAE horsepower is not a unit of power but instead is a measure of internal combustion engine displacement, and an RAC horsepower or tax horsepower is a differently defined unit of displacement.
Where units of horsepower are used for marketing consumer products, often measurement methods are designed by advertisers to maximize the size of the number produced for any product, even if this may not reflect realistic capacity of the product to do work when used in normal conditions.

which means that these guys are bound to have rated there engines and boilers on the standard HP 745.7 watts and not on the boiler HP 9809.5 watts

now to go ask a more intelligent question
wish me luck these guys have dont bother us with stupid questions stamped all over there web site

what that all means is the calculator that I used to determine btu consumption which was based on boiler HP was probably off by a factor of 9809/745 or about 13 in regards to mechanical HP which how those guys probably rated there engines
so instead of five hours run time on one ton of fuel I should be getting 65 hours run time on one ton of fuel
which is also wrong cause that was also measured at 70 psi and I need I think 410 psi or six times that
so if there is a linear relationship between fuel consumption ( who knows ) and steam pressure then I get 6x less hours than that 65 or about 10.8 hours run time per ton and for 7 tons I get something like what I had calculated before of 808 mile range on 7 tons
in this analysis it worked out to 756 miles per fuel load of 7 tons
close enough and I think I just answered my own question

[rich_solvey9838]

Have you thought of an induction, such as a squirrel cage fan, it would scoop the air and cabe set with a directional vien on top to catch wind flow and air would pass through the side and if you venturied the side ports it would draw more air though increasing the velocity?

Just a thunk, it's a definate head scratcher.

[Boston]

ya if you look through they are shown on some of the turbines

[Boston]

turns out I actually dont need that one huge engine but rather I would get better efficiency with one smaller engine and a back up of the same size
Im going with two 50 to 125 hp each steam engines 1500+ rpm max 600 to 1200 lbs steam pr hour at 600 to 1000 psi each and weigh 240 lbs each

the first set of numbers I calculated for the smaller steam engine spinning at 900 rpm and 70 hp ( a verry efficient rpm for this engine )
which is also a number that does not require a transmission

the second set of numbers in { } is for the smaller engine at max potential

engine torque = 408 ft/lb { 438 }
shaft hp at prop = 68 ( no gear box ) { 121 }
prop rpm = 900 { 1500 }
prop torque = 396 ft/lb { 425 }
displacement = 25 tons
wl =57'
speed in knots = 9
speed length ratio = 1.192
shaft hp available = 68 { 121 }
pounds pr shaft hp available = 736 { 412 }
hp required at prop = 70
lb pr shaft hp required = 716
80% of max prop shaft rpm =720 { 1200 }
theoretical required prop pitch = 15.2 { 9.12 }
1) estimates slip of un-shrouded prop = 40.01%
2) estimated slip of shrouded prop = 17%
1) required un-shrouded prop pitch at 9 knots = 21" at 25" diameter rpm = 720 { 15" at 22" diameter rpm = 1200}
2) required shrouded prop pitch at 9 knots = 18" at 22" diameter rpm = 720 { 12" at 22" diameter rpm = 1200 }

best pitch turns out to be 22 by 18 shrouded for a prop efficiency of 85%
I calculated the boiler efficiency of 80%
and a speed of 9 knots

fuel consumption equals

1 btu = 1055 J
good wood pellets contain 17,000,000 btu per ton at a cost of $175 to $225 each
works out to about half the cost per btu of diesel but its bulkier and weighs more

41 Kilowatt Hours = 147600000 Joules
pellets get 17 000 000 Btu per ton = 17 935 950 300 Joules per ton
so 1 ton of pellets will drive the hull at hull speed for 121.5 hrs
I think thats bound to be wrong
hmmmm
how about 121.5 x .84% efficiency = 102 hours or 938
still seems like to much
boiler efficiencies in the 90% range are not uncommon
my pellet stove claims an ash remaining of 1% which means there was a near impossible conversion to the gaseous state
to be safe Ill say a 80% boiler and burner efficiency rate combined
102 hours x .8 = 81.6 hours or 751 miles per ton of fuel and I can carry 7 tons although typical load would be 3

at the same speed and revs the diesels would be at there lower limits and burning 1.3 gallons an hour each or 2.6 gallons an hour for both
over 81 hours thats 210 gallons at $3 a gallon or $630
the pellets per ton to go the same distance cost about $175 - $225
although the diesels would most likely be pushing a smaller diameter prop of less efficiency and at a higher rate of consumption per hour to speed along
why, is my next question
instead of bombing around the bay like some fool in rut
how about slurping down a martini and wondering if the girls going to remember she is naked before that sail boat slides past and and there kids start screaming for grand dad to come see