Carvel & Oakum for a James River Batteau

[SedaliaEndeavor]

Hi everyone! I'm new here but I think someone here might be able to give me some advice on a boat project.

I (and about 7 friends) am building our second James River Batteau. A Batteau is a keeless boat propelled by poles and steered by two sweeps on each end, used for shallow water river travel moving freight from about 1780 - 1810 before there were railroads. (Check out Batteau.net for some pics)

Once a year we have a Batteau Festival where we take about 20 of these boats from Lynchburg, VA to Richmond, VA ~120 miles on the James River.

These boats must be historically accurate, based off of plans drawn from actual Batteaux dug up from the James River Basin 20 yrs ago.

These boats are made entirely of white oak, and are carvel planked, with oakum in the seams. Let me just say I don't know very much about boats, but I'm learning a lot as I go.

With the last boat, and all the batteau on the river as far as I can tell, there is only oakum in the seams. Everything I have read on carvel planking says you add some sort of putty afterwards, and I'd like to know the purpose of that? I have also read about using cotton, but everyone here just uses oakum, why? Also, these boats are unpainted and unfinished - just raw oak boards.

Thanks in advance for helping me figure out the answers to these questions - there isn't a ton of info out there on this topic I can find.

[Boston]

makes sense
white oak is virtually waterproof in itself
even untreated its durability in boating is legendary
linseed oil helps if they let you use it
the oakum is used to water proof the joints and the putty is used to seal the oakum
basically oakum is a hemp loosely braded or frayed rope thats soaked in some form of tar or tar like substance
its driven into the seems and sealed into place by both its own presure and the putty your going to be paying over it
my two cents
there is a mallot a wedge and a lot of beer your going to be needing as well

best
B

there is a pretty good site that describes the process in detail along with all the tools that make it easier

http://trawler.ca/planking.htm

[SedaliaEndeavor]

Cool, we've definitely got the beer covered. :) So does the putty help to seal it? I guess I am asking if you feel like the putty is important b/c as far as I can tell none of the other batteaux use it and I can't figure out why. I thought maybe the putty was so you could paint it, which we don't do, hence the lack of putty on all the boats. Is the putty authentic to that time period? Perhaps that is why?

[Boston]

well we always used it
I lived on cape cod and boat building was a real tradition in the family
on the kind of bare hull your talking about if I remember we would leave a paying seem in the planks and drive the Oakum into it once we washed it with something like linseed oil
kinda of a long arduous task but you get pretty fast at it
then we always sealed the seems with hull putty
comes in a huge can that you can barely lift with a picture of an old schooner on it but I cant remember the name of the stuff to save my life
it will come to me but for the moment its just going to drive me nuts

I think the putty fares the hull some and keeps any loose fibers from waving in the current
but its the Oakum that makes things water proof

as far as historic accuracy goes I have no idea
I could tell you whats traditional out on the cape but I have no clue about your area

best and watch your fingers
B

if the other guys dont use it
well thats kinda a big hint right there

sounds like your going to have a great time

were you getting your Oak and how much is it costing you a board foot if I might ask
I got a good supplier but it always pays to keep an eye out

[SedaliaEndeavor]

So I went to the source and asked some of these 20 yrs of Old Timey Batteau Men why they don't putty and the answer was so obvious. When you are constantly dragging a boat over rocks, you need easy access to be able to quickly repair the gushers. duh

As far as the lumber, we've had friends mill it both times for us. The first time we got Taylor-Ramsey Corp. to mill for us, but they are now out of business. One of the Ramseys was on our boat so we got a heck of a deal.

This time we got Dreaming Creek Timber Frame co. to mill for us. They are also buddies and Batteaux men. They build incredible timber frame structures all over the country. I don't know if they'd even do this kind of milling regularly or if it was a strictly friend deal or what - I can ask...


Can't wait to get out on the river! This warm weather & high water is getting to me!

[SedaliaEndeavor]

Oh, one more thing... About how much spacing did you leave for your seams. We are presoaking marked boards to get an idea of the swell, and then we're gonna take a skillsaw down the seam to get an even gap to pack, but I'd be interested to hear how other people figured that out.

[Boston]

we used to bevel the edges before we installed each piece
bevels different on each

best way to do it is to bevel the piece as you normally would and when your satisfied with the fit
take it to the bench and stand it on edge
run a door planer with a fence down it to give you room for paying
dont take the board down to a point but instead leave about 1/3 of the wood to contact the next piece
it depends on the thickness of the planking but I seem to remember about 15degrees as the magic number on the plainer
wait till you get all the planking on till you start calking or you can drive the planks apart
if you use a wooded mallet it wont get to your wrist so much
you guys are going to have a great time

I like your way of thinkin on the seams but the trick is to clamp the plank into place with whatever edges it has and run run a router with a straight 1/4 inch bit down it along a guide to keep it lined up properly
set the depth a little as you go if your working more than say 5/4 stock or you are going to break a few bits and those things can put a pretty good dent in your day
we used a 1x4 scarfed to the length of the boat and flex it to approximately match the curve of the planking and use that as a guide for the router
goes real fast once you get on a roll

the skill saw will work and the tool is easy and safe but your going to be making a lot of passes and more passes = more work
the router trick should take you about five minutes a plank depends on the length of the boat and two passed tops or you need to switch to a 1/2 inch bit
oh you might need to set up runners on the bottom of the router ( couple of sticks ) and run it in a specific orientation to clear the angle of the planking
and it helps shed wood a little better

I dont recall any adjustments we made for swell but Im not sure white oak swells once its pretty waterproof stuff
although on another thread another member made it clear he felt the stuff swelled just fine
its also not common to plank with the stuff as generally you want a wood that does swell and thus makes a water tight seal between planks
lease we seldom used it unless as a plank backing and thats not a trick for the faint of heart

be sure to alternate getting one plank on one side and then one on the other or you will twist your boat

you got it down as to how to measure the taper on each piece?
its real easy

oh and no mater what anyone tells you build the bastard upside down
otherwise its you that is upside down and that get old fast

can those guys beet say 2$ a board foot
for certified quercus alba

Ill be ordering about 3500' board feet white oak
2500' of red ceder
2000' cherry
if your buddy gives discounts for bulk
Ill also need it wrapped and loaded on a truck for shipping
highest grade wood he has
send sample first of each along with grading schedule

ask em for a price and contact me off list by clicking my name and the hitting send a private message

thanks

B

and your buddies right about fixing old school Oakum
once you pay in the putty its a pain and time consuming to dig out
in order to get a good patch if you spring a leak
basically the Oakum sticks to clean wood best and the putty can cause problems if it gets in behind the Oakum
B

[peter radclyffe]

Oh, one more thing... About how much spacing did you leave for your seams. We are presoaking marked boards to get an idea of the swell, and then we're gonna take a skillsaw down the seam to get an even gap to pack, but I'd be interested to hear how other people figured that out.

If your gonna use a skillsaw grind the blade to taper out, so you cut a wedge seam ,if you dont want to use putty, you can paint the seams, to protect the oakum, oakum is used because the oil makes it last longer, cotton is more uniform so its used for fine yacht seams, the planks should be touching for the third of plank thickness at frame, & the seam should taper to open 1/16th-1/8th inch, this increases on bigger boats but you have to be very delicate as a novice , else you may smash the seams, usually you have a feeding iron, thin, to feed the stuff in, then a crease iron just narrower than the seam to harden up, the difficulty is filling the seam to an even depth, dont rush it

[peter radclyffe]

If your gonna use a skillsaw grind the blade to taper out, so you cut a wedge seam ,if you dont want to use putty, you can paint the seams, to protect the oakum, oakum is used because the oil makes it last longer, cotton is more uniform so its used for fine yacht seams, the planks should be touching for the third of plank thickness at frame, & the seam should taper to open 1/16th-1/8th inch, this increases on bigger boats but you have to be very delicate as a novice , else you may smash the seams, usually you have a feeding iron, thin, to feed the stuff in, then a crease iron just narrower than the seam to harden up, the difficulty is filling the seam to an even depth, dont rush it

I advise you to coat the boats with raw or cooked linseed oil, they'll look beautiful, this transforms your work, & you can use linseed as a barrier cream when working

[Boston]

seals the wood really well and makes the Oakum stick better to
keeps it blond longer
thanks for the help Pete
my experience is all from wayyyyyyyy back in the day

[peter radclyffe]

Hello Boston, sounds like we had similar training

[peter radclyffe]

once you have worked with linseed & steamed oak, like teak, you may never look at wood quite the same way again, a luxury

[Boston]

yerp

I keep thinking 15degrees on the door plainer
we used a porter cable spiral bit door plainer with fence
thing was more like a hand held joiner
and was bomb proof

on a 1" plank it would make a seem about 3/16 wide maybe 1/4

teak is nice for decking and steps and things but I hate the way it works the tools and the way it splits
white oak on the other hand is a dream come true
hell I want my coffin made of the stuff

[peter radclyffe]

if you use putty, mix it with red lead paint, again for longevity

[Boston]

whats the name of that putty used to come in a ten gallon can brown with a picture of a schooner in black on it
had the old school ring fastener on the lid and smelled kinda funny
stuff was an off gray color about the same consistency as plumbers putty

[Lt. Holden]

Boston, the can with the schooner on it, was it Pettit?

[peter radclyffe]

yerp

I keep thinking 15degrees on the door plainer
we used a porter cable spiral bit door plainer with fence
thing was more like a hand held joiner
and was bomb proof

on a 1" plank it would make a seem about 3/16 wide maybe 1/4

teak is nice for decking and steps and things but I hate the way it works the tools and the way it splits
white oak on the other hand is a dream come true
hell I want my coffin made of the stuff

Is that planer like a versaplaner, we never had such luxuries in england, i heard these spiral cutter block planers are the best

[Boston]

carbide spiral bit
bullet proof and went through anything clean
bit cost a fortune but worked like no ones business
was not a block planer though
it was a fenced door planer
had adjustable depth adjustable table and adjustable fence
bloody thing was adjustable
you could do just about anything with it and it had a 11/4 throat
no plank to large

porter cable made it and Im not sure you can still get em
was perfect for the job

pettit wrings a bell
it was in old English under the schooner logo and kinda hard to read
can weighed a ton and full you could hardly lift it
used to drag it around on a dolly
also used a hawk and trowel to apply the stuff
stank to high hell when you opened the can but dissipated in no time
might have been Pettit but not sure
kinda smelled like foot odor or plumbers putty

[peter radclyffe]

can you please explain the term, 11/4 ,we dont use this

[Landlubber]

One and one quarter inch....

[Boston]

no
hardwood is measured in quarter inch increments
so 11/4 = 2 3/4 inches
its probably a uniquely American system
sorry I should have been more specific

the mills round here cut 4/4 , 8/4 ,12/4 and so on
Ild kill to have the hole thing converted to metric but that's not likely to happen any time soon

[SedaliaEndeavor]

Okay, I get the router trick. That makes tons of sense. Thanks and I will give it a try. Tapering the seams is just plain smart. Some of the river guys scab on a strip every inside seam to pack the oakum into for sort of the same purpose but not half as slick. The router sounds like an easy way.

White Oak definitely swells some, I don't know how much compared to others. Some buddies of ours recently burned a retired boat, and the cut nails left in the ash were bent like hairpins right in the middle from the amount of flex the boat went through swelling and shrinking wet to dry. (Most people take their boat out for the winter, so it flexes a lot when it dries) Another crew built a boat completely slam tight no seam, and the boards swelled enough to cup right up off the frame and ruined it.

Peter, thanks for the clarification on the cotton vs. oakum, I'd have guessed it must be something like that. The whole length of these boats take a serious beating. Most of them draft no more than 6", and in low water years sometimes that's even too much. When the boat is pretty dry it drafts less than a canoe, but we end up dragging it over plenty of rock ledges and inevitably knock and drag some oakum out. I think the putty would be a real hindrance to repairs. I guess that's not really a problem you'd generally run into in the ocean.


There is no way we'd build this thing upside down. We just have a boat flipping party when the time comes and get her right-side up again, so I'm with you on that. The boat is about 47' long.


Thanks for all the help and answers. This trip is the most fun I have all year long. Its my favorite vacation.

[Boston]

I think you meant right side up
but no worries and 47' is peanuts
Ive seen some dam huge boats built upside down and rolled

as for white oak
I never left the stuff untreated so just goes to prove we all have things to learn
now I know why we at least always hit it with mast and spar varnish
or oiled the crap out of it

and ya the router trick is the bomb
will cut your time in half once you get used to it
in the end it takes longer to clamp the guide in place than it does to actually cut the wood
and building upside down means the dust and there is tons of it
stays out of your face and eyes and throat and beer
makes for better moral on the job

oh
if my old grand dad Roby ever caught me scabbing on a strip in hull planking
it would have taken an act of God himself to save my ass from the tanning I was about to receive
and if my old man came along wondering what all the noise was about and heard what I had done
he would have taken over for old Roby if he felt he was being slack on me

things were different back then
you learned faster or you ran faster


best
B

[Landlubber]

Boston, your Imperial measurements are a nightmare.....metric umits are soooo much easier. Such is life.

[SedaliaEndeavor]

B - better to take your punishment than run. Its always twice as bad if you dodge it 'til later :) None of us want the strips on the boat it just looks bad to me, but the ones that have it have them all covered up with walkboards and such so you can't tell.

And yeah, I meant right side up. It doesn't take very many people to flip the boat, and we have always had way more than we needed. People say they come to work, but they really come for the party and to check out the boat. Its always been much easier than we've anticipated.

By the way, is there any high tech epoxy or putty solution to a knot in your planking below water level? For this boat we ordered full length lumber, and there aren't very many knots, but unfortunately I can't say there aren't any.

I've got one I'm a little concerned about, all the rest are just tiny. I'd hate to make another trip for one board, and I really don't want to cut it if not absolutely necessary, but it might be. I know it woudn't be historically accurate, but its tough to educate the public about batteaux history from the bottom of the river. And I'm definitely not poling 2 tons of water 120 miles. Whatever it is would probably have to stick to wet wood, which sure seems like a stretch to me but modern chemistry has some pretty amazing stuff. Any ideas?

[Boston]

well there's sound knots and there is unsound knots
if its not sound its got no business in the planking
cut it out and scarf the plank
no two ways about it unless you want a two or three inch hole to deal with

if you have ever seen a knot spring its kinda like a
spring
or maybe a fountain
at least till your hull gets low enough in the water
then its more like a big mistake that sunk your boat

cut out any questionable knots
if your not sure
cut it out
its not worth the embarrassment
B

[peter radclyffe]

well there's sound knots and there is unsound knots
if its not sound its got no business in the planking
cut it out and scarf the plank
no two ways about it unless you want a two or three inch hole to deal with

if you have ever seen a knot spring its kinda like a
spring
or maybe a fountain
at least till your hull gets low enough in the water
then its more like a big mistake that sunk your boat

cut out any questionable knots
if your not sure
cut it out
its not worth the embarrassment
B

If the knot is sound you can bore a pilot hole, & lightly drive a copper nail or brass pin, diagonally across it, there is epoxy resin, the eighth wonder of the wooden boat world , I would not router the seams, because the seams will only ever get bigger, you can start with the boards touching, cramped hard together, with a 1/8th seam outside, if your boards are cupping, consider copper rivets or increasing the moulding of your frames

[peter radclyffe]

On a slab sided thames barge, the planks are rebated half thickness, it gives a backing to the caulking, like a seam batten, if your hull is not slab sided if it is compound curved its much harder for a plank to cup, you could put a line of cotton caulking on the vertical part of the rebate before you put the next plank, but i'm awrwe you have traditional parameters, no need to complicate things