mydauphin
03-30-2009, 10:34 PM
What is the deepest anyone has anchored before and what problems did you find when you did ?
View Full Version : Deepest Anchoring
Landlubber
03-31-2009, 03:56 AM
Actually deep anchoring is something to be avoided, unless necessary.
In a cruising yacht, the anchor chain and the anchor itself are the limiting factors, plus the total weight of these components.
No good dropping the lot over the side in dfeep water is the winch cannot retrieve it all back up for you.
My recommendation on ground tackle is go as heavy as you can, say 10mm for a 40 foot boat, with a 45 lbs CQR attached. Run about 120 metres of chain.
The pull weight of the winch should be 3 to 4 times the total weight of the ground tackle.
Anchoring in very deep water, such as in fishing offshore reefs, is another matter. This is done with rope and anchors that can be bent back to shape, such as steel grappling hooks and a few metres of chain. These can be hundreds of feet long if need be, but again a line hauler is required to get it all back on deck unless you have a teenager that is happy to haul in the mess.
What exactly are your wishes for deep anchoring?
In a cruising yacht, the anchor chain and the anchor itself are the limiting factors, plus the total weight of these components.
No good dropping the lot over the side in dfeep water is the winch cannot retrieve it all back up for you.
My recommendation on ground tackle is go as heavy as you can, say 10mm for a 40 foot boat, with a 45 lbs CQR attached. Run about 120 metres of chain.
The pull weight of the winch should be 3 to 4 times the total weight of the ground tackle.
Anchoring in very deep water, such as in fishing offshore reefs, is another matter. This is done with rope and anchors that can be bent back to shape, such as steel grappling hooks and a few metres of chain. These can be hundreds of feet long if need be, but again a line hauler is required to get it all back on deck unless you have a teenager that is happy to haul in the mess.
What exactly are your wishes for deep anchoring?
Ad Hoc
03-31-2009, 04:02 AM
Anchored...as in temporary or fixed?
FAST FRED
03-31-2009, 07:26 AM
The only place I have seen this analized is Oceanography ans Seamanship , Van Dorn , used at the US Naval Canoe U.
His rec is 1/2 chain with 1/2 nylon yp to the capacity of hauling the weight aboard.
400ft water would be 200 chain and 200nylon , not too large in diameter to keep the stretchability.
FF
His rec is 1/2 chain with 1/2 nylon yp to the capacity of hauling the weight aboard.
400ft water would be 200 chain and 200nylon , not too large in diameter to keep the stretchability.
FF
Submarine Tom
03-31-2009, 12:41 PM
mydauphin,
This is a strange question, but I'll answer: 40 feet and I had no problems.
If you want to anchor deep you're going to need a really strong windlass!
That's because you're going to need a LOT of heavy chain, a good
cantenary, and a whole lot of nylon rope. A scope of 7:1 is a good
objective. That means in 400 feet of water you're going to need close to
3000 feet of rode!!! That's half a nautical mile!!! Where are you going to
store that on board???
Fast Fred: 400 feet of rode in 400 feet of water isn't going to work.
That's zero scope...
Tom
This is a strange question, but I'll answer: 40 feet and I had no problems.
If you want to anchor deep you're going to need a really strong windlass!
That's because you're going to need a LOT of heavy chain, a good
cantenary, and a whole lot of nylon rope. A scope of 7:1 is a good
objective. That means in 400 feet of water you're going to need close to
3000 feet of rode!!! That's half a nautical mile!!! Where are you going to
store that on board???
Fast Fred: 400 feet of rode in 400 feet of water isn't going to work.
That's zero scope...
Tom
apex1
03-31-2009, 01:39 PM
What is the deepest anyone has anchored before and what problems did you find when you did ?
80 meter, but that was to deep. I had 150 meter of chain (I do´nt use rope) but the anchor slipped several times. Insufficient scope as Tom mentioned. On 50 meter and below I never had a problem. My windlass and anchor are allways of the heaviest size, as you know. The problem is to add much weight where you do´nt need it, at the bow. If possible place the windlass and chain locker abaft the usual position. It may cost you some 80cm of accommodation, but the bow will not plough in.
Regards
Richard
80 meter, but that was to deep. I had 150 meter of chain (I do´nt use rope) but the anchor slipped several times. Insufficient scope as Tom mentioned. On 50 meter and below I never had a problem. My windlass and anchor are allways of the heaviest size, as you know. The problem is to add much weight where you do´nt need it, at the bow. If possible place the windlass and chain locker abaft the usual position. It may cost you some 80cm of accommodation, but the bow will not plough in.
Regards
Richard
mydauphin
03-31-2009, 10:59 PM
Wihile fishing a friend found a wreck at 400' in a drop off. We want to rig up a ROV and see if we can take a look but without any fancy equipment to stabilizing on spot we have rig up some kind of anchor to wreck so we can stay over site. That is why deep anchoring comes up
Landlubber
03-31-2009, 11:30 PM
Oh great mate, have fun, that will be a good project to play with.
Submarine Tom
04-01-2009, 02:11 AM
mydauphin,
Okay, now I get it.
You'll need a lot of ground tackle, times three!!
You'd have to triangulate your anchorage to keep from swinging off
station in current and wind. I would think it much easier to use a GPS and
stay on location under power, no anchor. I wish you all the best in this
adventure. It's no small undertaking.
Tom
Okay, now I get it.
You'll need a lot of ground tackle, times three!!
You'd have to triangulate your anchorage to keep from swinging off
station in current and wind. I would think it much easier to use a GPS and
stay on location under power, no anchor. I wish you all the best in this
adventure. It's no small undertaking.
Tom
FAST FRED
04-01-2009, 06:20 AM
A scope of 7:1 is a good objective.
It is in shallow water with nylon rode , but not needed in really deep water.
Anchoring in 100ft (half chain ,half nylon)will only require 3-1 or 4-1 (in Very Heavy weather) as the entire chain must be lifted clear of the bottom to effect the angle of pull to the anchor.
Stretchy nylon helps a lot and 150 ft of chain is hard to lift in a straight line .
FF
It is in shallow water with nylon rode , but not needed in really deep water.
Anchoring in 100ft (half chain ,half nylon)will only require 3-1 or 4-1 (in Very Heavy weather) as the entire chain must be lifted clear of the bottom to effect the angle of pull to the anchor.
Stretchy nylon helps a lot and 150 ft of chain is hard to lift in a straight line .
FF
mark775
04-01-2009, 07:51 AM
I anchor sometimes six or seven times a day. I anchor in 200 or 230 meters In rock - No problem. 1.5 to 1 ratio is fine if you have a little rock ledge to grab onto and the weather is calm and the current is < 2kts. If using an ROV, current will need to be far less than that. Are you meaning a remote camara on a cable? .3 knots will be a max there. 400 ft is pretty fancy equipment. Had a hard time holding with bent rebar grapnels and such without holding too well. Try a used Danforth and just rip that thing outta there when done. Never plan on losing anchors but, like fishing line, you want your weakest point to be at the bottom.
Not going by the book here; I use four hundred feet of 3/8 Amsteel Blue for this kind of thing because the drag on heavier rode is tremendous. But Amsteel doesn't stretch so you still need some nylon and chain. I use seven hundred feet of 3/4" doublebraid usually, with a weak link of older 5/8 doublebraid near the terminal gear or if the 3/4 gets frayed near the bottom, just use it anyway. I can pop this with my boat if it gets badly stuck. Size a chinese copy of a Bruce anchor and consider it disposable but it can almost always be tweaked out by pulling at an upcurrent angle. Herein lies the real beauty - the Chinese crap breaks and you take the remaining chunk back to where you got it for an exchange for new! If trying to hold in sand, you'll need scope like advised above or be prepared to slide - and you don't want to plow up your fishing hole, do you? Specific questions about this, feel free to ask. I know what works.
Not going by the book here; I use four hundred feet of 3/8 Amsteel Blue for this kind of thing because the drag on heavier rode is tremendous. But Amsteel doesn't stretch so you still need some nylon and chain. I use seven hundred feet of 3/4" doublebraid usually, with a weak link of older 5/8 doublebraid near the terminal gear or if the 3/4 gets frayed near the bottom, just use it anyway. I can pop this with my boat if it gets badly stuck. Size a chinese copy of a Bruce anchor and consider it disposable but it can almost always be tweaked out by pulling at an upcurrent angle. Herein lies the real beauty - the Chinese crap breaks and you take the remaining chunk back to where you got it for an exchange for new! If trying to hold in sand, you'll need scope like advised above or be prepared to slide - and you don't want to plow up your fishing hole, do you? Specific questions about this, feel free to ask. I know what works.
mydauphin
04-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Thanks all for your great answers. I am looking forward to doing this. The weather lately is not helping. I dont know when we are going to try this. The ROV is homemade. Right know it is camera on a rope with propulsion made from bilge pumps and PVC pipes. But we are working on upgrades.
thanks again
thanks again
kistinie
04-03-2009, 05:48 AM
Parachute is a solution too
The one i have on WINGOVER is an army modified air model with 3 Kg at the end
works in heavy weather, motion become very slow
Jordan serial drogue is also a good system, safer and much easier to use
This could help active stability motoring slowly, drogue doing a almost fix point, if stream is low, can work
The one i have on WINGOVER is an army modified air model with 3 Kg at the end
works in heavy weather, motion become very slow
Jordan serial drogue is also a good system, safer and much easier to use
This could help active stability motoring slowly, drogue doing a almost fix point, if stream is low, can work
Hägar
04-03-2009, 06:15 AM
Parachute is a solution too
The one i have on WINGOVER is an army modified air model with 3 Kg at the end
works in heavy weather, motion become very slow
Jordan serial drogue is also a good system, safer and much easier to use
This could help active stability motoring slowly, drogue doing a almost fix point, if stream is low, can work
ANCHORING was the question! Not a good recipe to fight cockroaches.
The ability to read is very helpful! You have been referred to that in another thread.
Hä, hä Hägar
The one i have on WINGOVER is an army modified air model with 3 Kg at the end
works in heavy weather, motion become very slow
Jordan serial drogue is also a good system, safer and much easier to use
This could help active stability motoring slowly, drogue doing a almost fix point, if stream is low, can work
ANCHORING was the question! Not a good recipe to fight cockroaches.
The ability to read is very helpful! You have been referred to that in another thread.
Hä, hä Hägar
Submarine Tom
04-03-2009, 12:40 PM
mydauphin,
I may know the ROV design you mean, I've built one.
I don't know how much experience you have with it in deep water or how
much current you have in the area, but don't underestimate the effect of
current on your ROV tether in 400 feet of water. Your ROV may not have
the power to overcome it.
Hagar: as you can see, this thread is not so much about anchoring. See
mydauphins second post.
Tom
I may know the ROV design you mean, I've built one.
I don't know how much experience you have with it in deep water or how
much current you have in the area, but don't underestimate the effect of
current on your ROV tether in 400 feet of water. Your ROV may not have
the power to overcome it.
Hagar: as you can see, this thread is not so much about anchoring. See
mydauphins second post.
Tom
mydauphin
04-03-2009, 04:48 PM
Submarine tom,
What kind of current are typical, 5-6 knots??? You have any other ideas?
What kind of current are typical, 5-6 knots??? You have any other ideas?
mark775
04-03-2009, 05:31 PM
Well, anchoring in five knots is problematic and potentially very dangerous. I believe that there are downriggers that will follow a bottom contour. Try drifting over this camara down but have a break-away in case it hangs. It will stun you how hard it is to get something down in even 2 knots anchored.
kistinie
04-04-2009, 06:16 AM
ANCHORING was the question! Not a good recipe to fight cockroaches.
The ability to read is very helpful! You have been referred to that in another thread.
Hä, hä Hägar
My original language is French, i may have missed the sense of the question, or maybe as your post let it suggest i am the forum idiot ?
My answer refers to a dynamic anchoring solution opposing two forces, a propulsion to a drogue, using an auto pilot+GPS
In case of the jordan you could regulate traction to any kind of current
The drogue opposed to motor will slow et regulate the motion lowering wind effect, and will reduce the movement to one axis instead of 2
Ideally you need an operator to control trust applied
In fact i would imagine that anchoring the rov and the boat will be two different task.
Dynamic for the boat
Static (rope and a weight) for rov
By the way, in french a drogue is called "floating/buoyant anchor"
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/
Aaaaaaarrrrrrhhhh !!!
Yours Sincerly !
François
The ability to read is very helpful! You have been referred to that in another thread.
Hä, hä Hägar
My original language is French, i may have missed the sense of the question, or maybe as your post let it suggest i am the forum idiot ?
My answer refers to a dynamic anchoring solution opposing two forces, a propulsion to a drogue, using an auto pilot+GPS
In case of the jordan you could regulate traction to any kind of current
The drogue opposed to motor will slow et regulate the motion lowering wind effect, and will reduce the movement to one axis instead of 2
Ideally you need an operator to control trust applied
In fact i would imagine that anchoring the rov and the boat will be two different task.
Dynamic for the boat
Static (rope and a weight) for rov
By the way, in french a drogue is called "floating/buoyant anchor"
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/
Aaaaaaarrrrrrhhhh !!!
Yours Sincerly !
François
Submarine Tom
04-04-2009, 02:43 PM
mydauphin,
I have no idea what currents are like in your area.
Look on a nautical chart or get some local information from locals.
If they are low and the wind is calm, you could try a drift dive providing
your surface currents match your currents at depth.
Our currents here on the southern west coast of Canada can get up to 20
knots in places but typically are not more than 5-6 on ebb tides.
Do some research. Good luck, don't loose that ROV!
Tom
I have no idea what currents are like in your area.
Look on a nautical chart or get some local information from locals.
If they are low and the wind is calm, you could try a drift dive providing
your surface currents match your currents at depth.
Our currents here on the southern west coast of Canada can get up to 20
knots in places but typically are not more than 5-6 on ebb tides.
Do some research. Good luck, don't loose that ROV!
Tom
Submarine Tom
04-04-2009, 02:44 PM
mydauphin,
I just re-read the second question in your post.
Yes, I have lots of ideas.
Could you be more spacific?
Tom
I just re-read the second question in your post.
Yes, I have lots of ideas.
Could you be more spacific?
Tom
apex1
04-05-2009, 02:14 PM
Parachute is a solution too
The one i have on WINGOVER is an army modified air model with 3 Kg at the end
works in heavy weather, motion become very slow
Jordan serial drogue is also a good system, safer and much easier to use
This could help active stability motoring slowly, drogue doing a almost fix point, if stream is low, can work
What a nonsense!
The jordan drogue is a good stabilizer in heavy weather, but what shall be the function if you like to stay over a fixed position (anchor)? The drogue works under speed (or against a current) only, otherwise its a wet towel in the drink. And if there is a current, the stuff will counteract the anchoring efforts, it will move the boat. And what means "motoring slowly" ? "active stability" ? Active stabilisation is a very different issue.
Regards
Richard
The one i have on WINGOVER is an army modified air model with 3 Kg at the end
works in heavy weather, motion become very slow
Jordan serial drogue is also a good system, safer and much easier to use
This could help active stability motoring slowly, drogue doing a almost fix point, if stream is low, can work
What a nonsense!
The jordan drogue is a good stabilizer in heavy weather, but what shall be the function if you like to stay over a fixed position (anchor)? The drogue works under speed (or against a current) only, otherwise its a wet towel in the drink. And if there is a current, the stuff will counteract the anchoring efforts, it will move the boat. And what means "motoring slowly" ? "active stability" ? Active stabilisation is a very different issue.
Regards
Richard
kistinie
04-05-2009, 02:59 PM
The armistice was signed.
Did you miss this information ?
Did you miss this information ?
Boston
04-05-2009, 03:27 PM
that was pretty funny K
but Apex has a point a sea anchor ( drogue ) does no good in a current if your after remaining on station
if anything its going to force you to drag
not a good situation
so points for Apex on technical merit although you get an A for a good sense of humor K and being a good sport
but Apex has a point a sea anchor ( drogue ) does no good in a current if your after remaining on station
if anything its going to force you to drag
not a good situation
so points for Apex on technical merit although you get an A for a good sense of humor K and being a good sport
apex1
04-05-2009, 05:01 PM
Touche'
kistinie
04-06-2009, 03:08 AM
The drogue opposed to motor will slow et regulate the motion lowering wind effect, and will reduce the movement to one axis instead of 2
Ideally you need an operator to control trust applied
In fact i would imagine that anchoring the rov and the boat will be two different task.
Dynamic for the boat
Static (rope and a weight) for rov
Controlling current is easier than wind because it is more constant
For wind ?
Hope there is current too !
For current
Drogue will also allow you to move on engine as low as 0.1, 0.5 or 1 Knt.
Weight at the end of the drogue line is supported by a buoy as speed is not enough
I think it is not such a wrong way to search if you do not have a computerised HÜBNER-BRAUN
Cheers !
Ideally you need an operator to control trust applied
In fact i would imagine that anchoring the rov and the boat will be two different task.
Dynamic for the boat
Static (rope and a weight) for rov
Controlling current is easier than wind because it is more constant
For wind ?
Hope there is current too !
For current
Drogue will also allow you to move on engine as low as 0.1, 0.5 or 1 Knt.
Weight at the end of the drogue line is supported by a buoy as speed is not enough
I think it is not such a wrong way to search if you do not have a computerised HÜBNER-BRAUN
Cheers !
Hägar
04-06-2009, 06:50 PM
Controlling current is easier than wind because it is more constant
For wind ?
Hope there is current too !
For current
Drogue will also allow you to move on engine as low as 0.1, 0.5 or 1 Knt.
Weight at the end of the drogue line is supported by a buoy as speed is not enough
I think it is not such a wrong way to search if you do not have a computerised HÜBNER-BRAUN
Cheers !
You may repeat that as often you want, it still is NONSENSE! As Apex mentioned above.
And do not ask me for the 8th of May, a good joke cannot conceal your ignorance.
Hägar
For wind ?
Hope there is current too !
For current
Drogue will also allow you to move on engine as low as 0.1, 0.5 or 1 Knt.
Weight at the end of the drogue line is supported by a buoy as speed is not enough
I think it is not such a wrong way to search if you do not have a computerised HÜBNER-BRAUN
Cheers !
You may repeat that as often you want, it still is NONSENSE! As Apex mentioned above.
And do not ask me for the 8th of May, a good joke cannot conceal your ignorance.
Hägar
jehardiman
04-06-2009, 10:48 PM
mydauphin,
Go get a copy of the SupSalv Navy Salvage Manual Vol 4, though 400' TWD is not really all that deep. To put a ROV on the bottom in what I pursume is the costal shelf will require a 4 point moor and a calculation of trail distance. At that depth, for most small ROV's, the umbilical drag will far excede the thrust capability (and most likely your boats hull drag, especially if you are on the east coast for Florida where the Gulf Stream could be 2 knts in water that shallow, otherwise currents rarely excede 1.5 knots except in channels, and most likely under a knot on the shelf.). For a 50hp ROV and an OSV with dynamic stationkeeping this is not much of a challange, for a 0.25hp "flying eye" over the side of a Bayliner, this could be a signifcant challange.
Go get a copy of the SupSalv Navy Salvage Manual Vol 4, though 400' TWD is not really all that deep. To put a ROV on the bottom in what I pursume is the costal shelf will require a 4 point moor and a calculation of trail distance. At that depth, for most small ROV's, the umbilical drag will far excede the thrust capability (and most likely your boats hull drag, especially if you are on the east coast for Florida where the Gulf Stream could be 2 knts in water that shallow, otherwise currents rarely excede 1.5 knots except in channels, and most likely under a knot on the shelf.). For a 50hp ROV and an OSV with dynamic stationkeeping this is not much of a challange, for a 0.25hp "flying eye" over the side of a Bayliner, this could be a signifcant challange.
Boston
04-07-2009, 01:15 AM
ok may be a dumb question
but why the umbilical
cant modulated sonar signals do the job just fine
but why the umbilical
cant modulated sonar signals do the job just fine
mark775
04-07-2009, 03:21 AM
We're not there for a reasonable amount of money yet, Boston (that I know).
The manual ("...currents rarely excede[sic]1.5 knots except in channels...", "...four point moor...")...has zero application here - sorry.
Just wondering...could there be ONE thread on this site where people with legitimate possibilities for solutions prevail over people just Googling **** to feign an impressive bank of knowledge?
The manual ("...currents rarely excede[sic]1.5 knots except in channels...", "...four point moor...")...has zero application here - sorry.
Just wondering...could there be ONE thread on this site where people with legitimate possibilities for solutions prevail over people just Googling **** to feign an impressive bank of knowledge?
jehardiman
04-07-2009, 12:24 PM
We're not there for a reasonable amount of money yet, Boston (that I know).
The manual ("...currents rarely excede[sic]1.5 knots except in channels...", "...four point moor...")...has zero application here - sorry.
Just wondering...could there be ONE thread on this site where people with legitimate possibilities for solutions prevail over people just Googling **** to feign an impressive bank of knowledge?
If it was easy Mark, everyone would have done it by now. It is difficult and that is why the US Navy has an Advanced Undersea Systems Program Office, PMS 394, just to handle these types of things. FWIW, it is my policy to "teach a man to fish" rather than just hand him a squid, because bandwidth is too small to pass a squid anyway and wouldn't feed him much, bits being so tiny. Only a fool doesn't learn from and build on the work done before.
As for the spelling..shrug..it is not what I'm paid for, especially when charitably giving advice to someone who asked. You should see my drafts when I can't type fast enough to keep up with my thoughts. LOL.
The manual ("...currents rarely excede[sic]1.5 knots except in channels...", "...four point moor...")...has zero application here - sorry.
Just wondering...could there be ONE thread on this site where people with legitimate possibilities for solutions prevail over people just Googling **** to feign an impressive bank of knowledge?
If it was easy Mark, everyone would have done it by now. It is difficult and that is why the US Navy has an Advanced Undersea Systems Program Office, PMS 394, just to handle these types of things. FWIW, it is my policy to "teach a man to fish" rather than just hand him a squid, because bandwidth is too small to pass a squid anyway and wouldn't feed him much, bits being so tiny. Only a fool doesn't learn from and build on the work done before.
As for the spelling..shrug..it is not what I'm paid for, especially when charitably giving advice to someone who asked. You should see my drafts when I can't type fast enough to keep up with my thoughts. LOL.
mark775
04-07-2009, 01:37 PM
Fair enough. My post came out a bit bitter, sorry. It's just that four point anchoring and such are out of reason for a guy and his little fishin' boat. If he is out in some current, and four moorings are attempted for whatever reason, tears will be cried. Precision anchoring with a one direction current on a relatively windless day should necessitate only two anchors.
The fellow had an idea,.. tinkering is great but the physics of this are difficult to overcome enough without entering the Navy ability to throw time, money, and complexity at the problem. I didn't knock your spelling as I mispell routinely for not using spell-check or proofing. Merely pointed out that the error wasn't mine. Some of the most brilliant minds I've met couldn't spell for crap. If he can tell us what type of boat, the wind and sea, the current, the bbottom composition, etc., maybe we can actually help!
The fellow had an idea,.. tinkering is great but the physics of this are difficult to overcome enough without entering the Navy ability to throw time, money, and complexity at the problem. I didn't knock your spelling as I mispell routinely for not using spell-check or proofing. Merely pointed out that the error wasn't mine. Some of the most brilliant minds I've met couldn't spell for crap. If he can tell us what type of boat, the wind and sea, the current, the bbottom composition, etc., maybe we can actually help!
kistinie
04-08-2009, 05:26 AM
You may repeat that as often you want, it still is NONSENSE! As Apex mentioned above.
And do not ask me for the 8th of May, a good joke cannot conceal your ignorance.
Hägar
Ignorance ?
Do you think i could have the honor to receive a bit of your knowledge ?
- To separate boat and rov archoring is nonsense ? Why ?
- Opposing two vectors to give boat motion a simplier low speed 1 axe move can't work ? Why ?
All these ideas come from the idea that i would not take the risk to loose my 500$ Fortress Anchors and lines playing with high depth... I'm not only ignorant, but poor too :-)
And do not ask me for the 8th of May, a good joke cannot conceal your ignorance.
Hägar
Ignorance ?
Do you think i could have the honor to receive a bit of your knowledge ?
- To separate boat and rov archoring is nonsense ? Why ?
- Opposing two vectors to give boat motion a simplier low speed 1 axe move can't work ? Why ?
All these ideas come from the idea that i would not take the risk to loose my 500$ Fortress Anchors and lines playing with high depth... I'm not only ignorant, but poor too :-)
mark775
04-08-2009, 10:16 AM
With the Western world nearly regulated and "unioned" out of actually producing things, the Chinese anchor copies can be considered disposable they are so cheap.
In the words of Rodney King; "Can we all just get along?". Think of the people we could help if we weren't responding just for our egos and didn't take tangents to attack others.
In the words of Rodney King; "Can we all just get along?". Think of the people we could help if we weren't responding just for our egos and didn't take tangents to attack others.
kistinie
04-08-2009, 08:25 PM
With the Western world nearly regulated and "unioned" out of actually producing things, the Chinese anchor copies can be considered disposable they are so cheap.
In the words of Rodney King; "Can we all just get along?". Think of the people we could help if we weren't responding just for our egos and didn't take tangets to attack others.
If you are paid 2$/day and your enterprise pollutes as much as possible to paid as less as possible, your cheap work is disposable... Sad world.
No work should be disposable, whatever it's price, especially when it's price is fixed by market.
Stop war, i hope and vote for your program, but i'm afraid you are an irreducible optimistic dreamer :-))
if for a beginning we could get just some technical debate, with facts and reflexion about ideas, i would be please.
In the words of Rodney King; "Can we all just get along?". Think of the people we could help if we weren't responding just for our egos and didn't take tangets to attack others.
If you are paid 2$/day and your enterprise pollutes as much as possible to paid as less as possible, your cheap work is disposable... Sad world.
No work should be disposable, whatever it's price, especially when it's price is fixed by market.
Stop war, i hope and vote for your program, but i'm afraid you are an irreducible optimistic dreamer :-))
if for a beginning we could get just some technical debate, with facts and reflexion about ideas, i would be please.
mark775
04-08-2009, 11:15 PM
Sorry, never said anything about stopping war. I DO prefer to win wars however. Just would like to use the forum as it was intended.
kistinie
04-09-2009, 03:59 AM
As intended !
So do i !
I was just talking of forum war...nothing more, i do not really care of what a state decides or does, even when i do, this is not the place for this, and above all, i care much more about individuals acts.
Any idea can be discussed, any opinion is worth ( maybe with a few exceptions !)
i am here to think, invent, learn and share knowledge. Not to be insulted.
As far as i know, i try to stay fair, i respect others opinions and stay on a technical debate as much as i can. Now, just like you, i guess, i do not accept to be treated as ignorant, idiot or anything of this kind without justifications and proofs of such statements.
So in short, we can talk of anything...but not with anybody.
This being said, i have learned a lot about my defaults, but i always do not know why my solution about anchoring is rubbish...
So do i !
I was just talking of forum war...nothing more, i do not really care of what a state decides or does, even when i do, this is not the place for this, and above all, i care much more about individuals acts.
Any idea can be discussed, any opinion is worth ( maybe with a few exceptions !)
i am here to think, invent, learn and share knowledge. Not to be insulted.
As far as i know, i try to stay fair, i respect others opinions and stay on a technical debate as much as i can. Now, just like you, i guess, i do not accept to be treated as ignorant, idiot or anything of this kind without justifications and proofs of such statements.
So in short, we can talk of anything...but not with anybody.
This being said, i have learned a lot about my defaults, but i always do not know why my solution about anchoring is rubbish...
apex1
04-09-2009, 05:50 AM
i am here to think, invent, learn and share knowledge. Not to be insulted.
This being said, i have learned a lot about my defaults, but i always do not know why my solution about anchoring is rubbish...
That is exactly the problem Kistinie, you do not understand! The idea with a drogue is the pure nonsense and you do´nt like to accept that. A drogue counteracts anchoring like setting a sail. What mydauphin needs is a stable position above a wreck and a free moving ROV (not one at anchor). But you believe you tell old salts how it goes, and you have proven that many times on other threads that you´re a layman, sorry.
So,stop arguing if your posts are labeled properly.
Regards
Richard
This being said, i have learned a lot about my defaults, but i always do not know why my solution about anchoring is rubbish...
That is exactly the problem Kistinie, you do not understand! The idea with a drogue is the pure nonsense and you do´nt like to accept that. A drogue counteracts anchoring like setting a sail. What mydauphin needs is a stable position above a wreck and a free moving ROV (not one at anchor). But you believe you tell old salts how it goes, and you have proven that many times on other threads that you´re a layman, sorry.
So,stop arguing if your posts are labeled properly.
Regards
Richard
jehardiman
04-09-2009, 12:24 PM
Fair enough. My post came out a bit bitter, sorry. It's just that four point anchoring and such are out of reason for a guy and his little fishin' boat. If he is out in some current, and four moorings are attempted for whatever reason, tears will be cried.
Actually, setting a 4-point moor is a relatively easy exercise in seamanship for anyone who claims to be a boathandler. I have done it several times from open boats and a couple of times from my own 26' sailboat. In this situation, it just requires 3 people, 4 sets of ground tackle with very heavy kellets, and lots of rode.
Precision anchoring with a one direction current on a relatively windless day should necessitate only two anchors.
The operative word in that phrase is "should". We have a saying in Deep Submergence, "Wish into one hand and p**s into the the other and see which one fills up first." Success is accomplished by ensuring a situation will occur rather than hoping it will, which leads to the next comment....
The fellow had an idea,.. tinkering is great but the physics of this are difficult to overcome enough without entering the Navy ability to throw time, money, and complexity at the problem.
I laughed out loud at this. We rarely have sufficient time to prepare for a mission, never enough money, and only a fool adds complexity to deep water back deck operations. That said, all three have to be traded off to get a mission accomplished successfully. It is a poor economy not to add sufficient capability to a system to allow it to operate in the great majority of expected waters and environments. One must trade-off the cost of not accomplishing a mission against the loss of a ROV system against the day-rate cost of sitting waiting for a weather window. While in this case, the ground tackle may cost more than the ROV system and mydauphin has all the time in the world, the ROV is more likely to not find the wreck, get fouled, or be lost the less ground tackle you have.
If he can tell us what type of boat, the wind and sea, the current, the bbottom composition, etc., maybe we can actually help!
Now this is a statement that all can agree on. FWIW, with an open bow boat, a handheld GPS, and some knowledge of the current this wreck inspection could be straightforward. However, depending on ROV capabilities and visibility (400' will most likely require lights), there will be some risk to the ROV fouling, which is why I wouldn't recommend it.
Actually, setting a 4-point moor is a relatively easy exercise in seamanship for anyone who claims to be a boathandler. I have done it several times from open boats and a couple of times from my own 26' sailboat. In this situation, it just requires 3 people, 4 sets of ground tackle with very heavy kellets, and lots of rode.
Precision anchoring with a one direction current on a relatively windless day should necessitate only two anchors.
The operative word in that phrase is "should". We have a saying in Deep Submergence, "Wish into one hand and p**s into the the other and see which one fills up first." Success is accomplished by ensuring a situation will occur rather than hoping it will, which leads to the next comment....
The fellow had an idea,.. tinkering is great but the physics of this are difficult to overcome enough without entering the Navy ability to throw time, money, and complexity at the problem.
I laughed out loud at this. We rarely have sufficient time to prepare for a mission, never enough money, and only a fool adds complexity to deep water back deck operations. That said, all three have to be traded off to get a mission accomplished successfully. It is a poor economy not to add sufficient capability to a system to allow it to operate in the great majority of expected waters and environments. One must trade-off the cost of not accomplishing a mission against the loss of a ROV system against the day-rate cost of sitting waiting for a weather window. While in this case, the ground tackle may cost more than the ROV system and mydauphin has all the time in the world, the ROV is more likely to not find the wreck, get fouled, or be lost the less ground tackle you have.
If he can tell us what type of boat, the wind and sea, the current, the bbottom composition, etc., maybe we can actually help!
Now this is a statement that all can agree on. FWIW, with an open bow boat, a handheld GPS, and some knowledge of the current this wreck inspection could be straightforward. However, depending on ROV capabilities and visibility (400' will most likely require lights), there will be some risk to the ROV fouling, which is why I wouldn't recommend it.
Submarine Tom
04-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Have you ego-maniacs even noticed the original poster has been missing from this pissing contest for about two pages?
Would any of you consider some constructive, interactive dialogue with this ambitious, adventurous sole? After all, this is his or her thread...
It may be a stretch to draw him/her back, but I would think it decent of you if you tried at this point. That is, providing you have anything constructive to say.
We need more information about this under-taking, but that may no longer be available if the poster has turned to other, more helpful resources.
Perhaps if we could stay on topic this discussion could be more helpful.
I don't know, just an idea.
Tom
Would any of you consider some constructive, interactive dialogue with this ambitious, adventurous sole? After all, this is his or her thread...
It may be a stretch to draw him/her back, but I would think it decent of you if you tried at this point. That is, providing you have anything constructive to say.
We need more information about this under-taking, but that may no longer be available if the poster has turned to other, more helpful resources.
Perhaps if we could stay on topic this discussion could be more helpful.
I don't know, just an idea.
Tom
Boston
04-09-2009, 02:07 PM
well Im no professional but as a kid we sure went out sailing and often rather than drag perfectly good bottom paint up on the beach to be ground into oblivion and trashed by the next sneaker wave we would anchor and swim in
two anchors was a mater of habit and seemed to never fail
we never set a sea anchor in conjunction with it so I have no idea how that would help
the tide current or wind will keep you in line ok unless your in some real contrary seas and then I would probably not leave my boat floating without me
deep anchoring is not something I have any experience with but the the drogue just seems superfluous or even detrimental to a successful set
even diving off the old lobster boat we never set more than two anchors
although we did make it a point to check the anchors before we swam off
best B
its always best to learn from the mistakes of others rather than have to always make your own
two anchors was a mater of habit and seemed to never fail
we never set a sea anchor in conjunction with it so I have no idea how that would help
the tide current or wind will keep you in line ok unless your in some real contrary seas and then I would probably not leave my boat floating without me
deep anchoring is not something I have any experience with but the the drogue just seems superfluous or even detrimental to a successful set
even diving off the old lobster boat we never set more than two anchors
although we did make it a point to check the anchors before we swam off
best B
its always best to learn from the mistakes of others rather than have to always make your own
mark775
04-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Jehardon,.. after I extended an olive branch. I don't care enough to start dissecting a little bit of navy knowledge from someone that claims to have set a four point mooring in current in 400' of water with very heavy kellets, anchors and rode from a 26' sailboat. SubTom - I was trying to help the dude. Be my guest. I do know more about this topic than you two can Google but It's all yours.
bntii
04-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Great- fisticuffs I'm in!
Ignorance ?
- Opposing two vectors to give boat motion a simplier low speed 1 axe move
Kristinie I like this ideal.
Do I take it you mean that the drag of the sea anchor caught in a light current is helpful in damping the force of the engines in forward?
This provides a static force which by exceeding the surface dynamics will regulate the relative forward motion of the vessel through the current stream..
So holding station is simpler? Might it be required that a twin screw vessel be used to make this work well?
Or will a autopilot work to hold her head to a bearing??
Ignorance ?
- Opposing two vectors to give boat motion a simplier low speed 1 axe move
Kristinie I like this ideal.
Do I take it you mean that the drag of the sea anchor caught in a light current is helpful in damping the force of the engines in forward?
This provides a static force which by exceeding the surface dynamics will regulate the relative forward motion of the vessel through the current stream..
So holding station is simpler? Might it be required that a twin screw vessel be used to make this work well?
Or will a autopilot work to hold her head to a bearing??
riggertroy
04-10-2009, 02:07 AM
Anchored for a short period, daylight hours only, in 130metres of water, we used a plow type anchor with a retrieve line of 16mm and the main warp consisted of 12mm chain - 20m and 220m of 20mm line, worked well but the current was nil and wind was max of 10knots
mydauphin
04-10-2009, 07:58 AM
Rigger, What size boat? It sounds like a plan... thanks
riggertroy
04-11-2009, 03:11 AM
~100ft LOA, sailing vessel
NOTE: the weather conditions were perfect for what we wanted to do and we were well aware we could lose the anchor and gear.
NOTE: the weather conditions were perfect for what we wanted to do and we were well aware we could lose the anchor and gear.
Landlubber
04-11-2009, 04:20 AM
riggertroy,
100 foot of yacht held by a 12mm chain.......,seriously.
100 foot of yacht held by a 12mm chain.......,seriously.
riggertroy
04-11-2009, 04:43 AM
Chain might have been slightly heavier, but not much and it was the only gear we had to hand, I'm going from an old memory but it was definitely 20mm line and I could carry the anchor by myself - very very light gear, as I said earlier perfect conditions and daylight only.
The reason for such light gear was we did not want to lose the primary anchor and chain due to snagging or the windlass not being able to recover the primary gear from such a depth.
The reason for such light gear was we did not want to lose the primary anchor and chain due to snagging or the windlass not being able to recover the primary gear from such a depth.
Landlubber
04-11-2009, 04:50 AM
OK mate, I see now what you are getting at....it did not read that way at first. Ta.
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