Old people can answer this question! : )

[netjaws]

I'm trying to make a geometry file from a table of offsets that looks like it came from the 60's or 70's.

Each entry is, for example, 4-5-4 - which I take to mean 4'-5 4/8" -because there aren't any occurrences of "8" or anything higher in the third column.

But in some places, it adds a + or - after it, like "3-1-6+" or "6-11-6-" ... what does this represent? I'm guessing, plus or minus a sixteenth of an inch. Please help.

And all, have a good weekend!

[alan white]

Plus or minus a sixteenth.

[duluthboats]

Alan is right and I'm not that old.

[PAR]

The + or - sign typically means a 1/16", but more often then not it means a "smidge" more or less depending on which it is.

Offsets produced like this are usually done by hand, so take them with a grain of salt or possibly the whole salt shaker, depending on the designer.

In other words, these numbers will get you close, but actually fairing is done on the loft floor not on the drawings, plus it's not uncommon to find errors in the offset table.

This isn't to say the drawings aren't fair, they probably are, but only in the scale they were drawn at. When you take a very sharp pencil line and blow it up to the size the boat will be built in (the drawing scale), it's not a very sharp line any more, but a big fat smudge of a line. This causes subtle errors and unfairness to creep into the drawings. This is one of the reasons you loft a set of lines full size. You'll catch these errors and straighten any unfair lines you sight down.

Oh please, Whoosh. A mm? No one is building boats to those tolerances. Hell if you can make one side of a 40'er within a 1/4" of the other you're far better then most. A 1/16" is more then accurate enough, likely more then necessary and certainly more then you can see or feel in it's performance, hence the commonly accepted 1/8" limit on offsets.

[rasorinc]

Plus or Minus +/- may have been an acceptable error ratio in those dated offsets.

[alan white]

I'd imagine the designer who wrote down those particular offsets meant "up to a sixteenth" (otherwise, only plusses would be needed, and not minuses).
Probably, you'ld get closer going one third of an eighth by eye.
Lofting, you'ld be close enough. I don't think absolute accuracy is needed if the boat's lofted. The boat will be true to itself if ever so slightly different than its sisterships.
So PAR's right, a smidge it is. A sixteenth is close, but a third of an eighth is closer, though I think it is called a scoche or a dight or a smidge. Finer gradations would be named after various hairs...

[netjaws]

whoosh,

You can convert my offsets to mm when you pry them from my cold, dead hands

thanks all for your help, I'll go on the assumption that a "plus" or "minus" equals a +/- one-sixteenth of an inch.

[PAR]

My whole point is, regardless of what the table off offsets says, the lines need to be lofted.

Pulling station molds from unchecked offsets will result in an unfair boat. The only ways to check the offsets are to loft or plug the offsets into a bit of software and generate lines from them.

I can pretty much guarantee the resulting hull will not be perfectly fair, if produced exactly as the offsets recommend.

I've lofted quite a number of boats now and none didn't require at least some adjustment on the loft floor.

[tom kane]

Maths is never an exact science.

[Boston]

just noticed this thread
my grand dad used a similar number system
you are right about it being in feet inches and eighths
with the plus or minus being called out as strong or light depending
Rasornic got it down
my grand dad was insane about accuracy
if he was in the boat house
it was his way or the highway and that included my dad
who was bigger than he but not quite as sharp with his tongue
although you didnt always get the benefit of a warning
if old Roby called something out strong and it didnt come to him with that extra sixteenth on it
you might consider ducking depending on the day and who he was pissed off at

[mydauphin]

Oh please, Whoosh. A mm? No one is building boats to those tolerances. Hell if you can make one side of a 40'er within a 1/4" of the other you're far better then most. A 1/16" is more then accurate enough, likely more then necessary and certainly more then you can see or feel in it's performance, hence the commonly accepted 1/8" limit on offsets.

I had a production boat, that I went to have a hard top made for. I measured one side, and width and of I went to builder. When I brought top back there was 2 inch difference from one side to another. I blame top guy and took top back. He showed me it was the boat. Since then I have measured several boats and found even larger errors. I found a 4 inches on a 70 footer.

[PAR]

I've been part of hundreds of builds in some form or another. I've never seen tolerances anything close to the 1/8" typically found on offset tables.

I once bragged about a 27' fishing boat I'd just built. The sheer was within a 1/4" of it's opposite side, when measured with a tape. I considered this as close as you could expect and am still quite proud of the feat.

[Landlubber]

The worst one I saw had a 4" height difference in the topsides, nicely finished, amateur built, he was very proud of his boat, he only found out when doing the rigging, the caps were diffferent.....in the water a blind man could see it.

But you are right PAR, we never build symmetrical....human error or whatever, they certainly are not true, we all try, but.......

I am CAD CAM manufacturing alloy plate boats in China at present, they are pretty good, but 1/8".....sorry, no way. In theory of course....but so is the world perfect, in theory....even Communism is......in theory.

[PAR]

When you add up all the pencil thicknesses that get used during a build, an 1/8" is a miracle.

[mydauphin]

How about symmetrical underwater? Most boats have more dohickies on one side than another, even weight may not be distributed properly. Surely this has more effect against water resistances than a 1/8 of an inch. To me Boats because of the general weight and slow speed have a larger margin of error than a Aeroplane. But the forces are also much greater. Case in point rudders. A plane rudder is a simple, light thing on a boat the forces are greater. Of course that is comparing comperable size vessels.

[alan white]

As speed increases, asymmetry matters more, but forces don't increase at lower speeds except with planing boats.
At very low speeds, water is nearly frictionless. A child can lean on the stern of large boat in still water and move it after a while.
My own boat, I found out after two seasons of uneventful sailing, was wider on one side from the centerline by a half inch at a point only four feet back from the bow--- and it's a 15 footer.
You can't see it without stretching a string from the bow to the mid-point of the stern and measure the two sides.
Yet, there is nothing in the performance to indicate asymmetry.

[Boston]

wow
I built custom homes for years and if I found a quarter inch I was not happy
half inch and someone was going to hear about it
and fix it
I always use a laser level and transit device to shoot in my grades and dimensions
and only used a tape to lay out floors and walls
seems only logical that the same system will work nicely setting up my molds for my coaster
yielding hopefully similar results
that 1/4 inch is great but measuring with a tape is always going to yield inconsistent results
( 1 inch 25' metal tape and every one using the same brand and size is the only way to go )
I set up a laser bench and rope it off first thing at each project
the bench is steal set on concrete and its temp is taken at each set up with an emphasis being made to take all measurements at the same temp
thus yielding the most accurate results
I also set up a bench mark to calibrate from also steel set in concrete and also well away from the path of any large trucks or excavations
the laser level is self adjusting so I only need one bench mark
also its automated so once set in place there needs be no reason to touch it
its operation being handled by remote control

not sure if I will be humbled by my first project in a long time
but I can only imagine what my grandfather would have said if I built something an inch off let alone four inches
hell Im not sure I would be alive to tell the tail if I had
he was serious about his strong or light calls
as are most good finish men

having hired and fired a lot of carpenters in my time Im always hardest on myself
Im leaning toward a Ted Brewer design called the Sofia Christina
but may end up having to settle for the big friendship sloop
ones forty feet
the other forty six
either way
Ill be aiming for that 1/4 inch I always held myself to
wish me luck
sounds like Im going to need it
best
B

ps
accuracy starts with a decent slab of concrete

[Manie B]

Boston i whole heartedly agree with this

accuracy starts with a decent slab of concrete

and then VERY VERY important to work CLEAN
you cannot imagine how much time it saves when you are highly organized and everything is either in a pigeon hole or a dedicated shelf

however extreme accuracy on a boat wastes time
believe me i have just gone thru it on a very small dinghy
1/8 inch = 3mm which is not bad
be carefull not to waste too much time like i just did on fancy woodwork and delay getting to the water

now that i am 90% thru my "shiny woodwork" i am asking myself why the hell did i do it - just one of those things i suppose - had to get it out of my system !!

i will be posting pics of my tiny dinghy soon when completely finished

but be carefull - over the top accuracy is not always necessary ;)

[Paul B]

Wow, a quarter inch is as good as some can do?

Obviously you have never built boats to a racing rating rule. A quarter inch tolerance on an IOR build would have been unacceptable and scrapped. If your freeboards were off by a quarter inch at measurement points the rating could be off by FEET.

Last month one of the Volvo 70s was docked points because her LOA was off by 2mm. That's +2mm in 70 feet. If the builder holds that tolerance, think how close he was in freeboards of 4 to 5 feet?

[rasorinc]

Nothing like laying out your string lines and then checking the square and finding you have created a diamond.

[mydauphin]

I have built many a boat in my backyard, garage, driveway etc... Never a level floor. So I had to be careful, used cross string to make sure things where square. Never perfect though, went with feel of shape and wood.
That said, if you can't build a big straight work table or jig, then you shouldn't be building a boat. I guess people get lazy if the know no one can tell the difference.

By the way Boston, I was taught in "School" that many times rooms are purposely built not perfectly square to avoid echoes... Or concrete was slanted to avoid water collecting in the middle. I think these are just typical on the job site margin of error adjustment.

On boat building. My biggest problem has always been the weather. Too Cold, too Hot, rain, etc... Hard to keep anything straight or dry. I am building a 300' concrete wall now, the wood bracing moves every day. I goes from straight to crooked everyday. Will have to make straight before I pour concrete. So little things make big differences.

[netjaws]

Nothing like laying out your string lines and then checking the square and finding you have created a diamond.

And nothing like spinning a model around in AutoCAD or deadweight and just knowing - even just for yourself - that it is perfection : )

[Landlubber]

in ya dreams, netjaws, reality is in the build, sure nice lines on an LCD screen impress customers, building is another game mate.

[PAR]

Ditto that Lubber. There's nothing like rolling it into the sun light for the first time and having a real look at the curves and shapes that were too poorly lit or housed in too close a space to see properly, to prove (or disprove) your building abilities.

I just experienced this (for the umpteenth time) recently. Bright Florida sun doesn't let a single flaw hide.

[Boston]

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/maxtanksoctagon.jpg

I make big goofy fish tanks from time to time
thing is to cut and bevel the glass at this size at the plant would have cost about 1.25 a foot
the tank is 100 inches and there are eight panels with two beveled edges each
thats 1600 inches of beveling at 1.25 pr inch

I did it myself with a special saw I built and a few gallons of polishing compound
were it more than a few mils off this tank would leak

also the stand
three main bearing points and two keelsons all needing to be dead perfectly straight

also the support beams needed to be dead straight as well as the supporting structure

the tank weighs about 3000 lbs and the glass was 3/4 inch thick

no room for error at all or my customer would end up wet and angry

my theory is Ill spend whatever amount of time necessary to ensure the level of accuracy necessary for the job

when it comes to my boat that Ill be staking my life on
Im going to be dam accurate

oh I might screw something up
but Ill be fixing it whatever or however painful that fix may be

cheers
B

[Landlubber]

Boston, well aint you a clever little ****, very nice work mate, always nice to see someone doing what they can do......I wonder what we would all make if we had the time to do so insread of just working for a living.....

[Boston]

am working on a rhomboid next

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/pyrites-01.jpg

sorry about the bad rendering
but I got the stand done for it and am waiting for more glass

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN1374.jpg

did I mention there are no metal fasteners in any of my stuff

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0899.jpg

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0924.jpg

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0923.jpg

just finished this one

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/DSCN0880.jpg

kinda helps me keep the skills alive till I can afford the pile of lumber Im going to need to build the coaster

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/P8160237.jpg

the deck houses are going to be taller, out of cherry and have lots more glass as well as more extensive skylights
basically if Im going to be spending any significant time in this thing
I want light and air
and lots of it
would also love to find a way to get a pilot house onto it without wrecking the look of the toy schooner
but Im not sure it can be done
Ive talked to the designer and he believes it possible
but Ive done a little pencil work of my own and it just looks funny however I try it
any ideas kids
I was thinking if I make a pilot station in the aft cabin and make that cabin a little taller than the fore
then I could have some windows in front and a dam tall chair or something to make the hole thing work
who knows
but if I get into weather Im not interested in riding out the storm with my as tied to the wheel in an open cockpit
been there
done that
not interested
I want hot cocoa and a nice cushy dry seat
dancing girls if possible

[TeddyDiver]

Wow, a quarter inch is as good as some can do?

Obviously you have never built boats to a racing rating rule. A quarter inch tolerance on an IOR build would have been unacceptable and scrapped. If your freeboards were off by a quarter inch at measurement points the rating could be off by FEET.

Last month one of the Volvo 70s was docked points because her LOA was off by 2mm. That's +2mm in 70 feet. If the builder holds that tolerance, think how close he was in freeboards of 4 to 5 feet?

:P :P And what side was the sun shining? How warm was the weather? Was it wind? Those things give you more inaccuracy within 70' than 2mm:P
Anyone can use a grinder to set LOA perfectly in 0.2 mm in the morning.. but measure it ion the evening and you are a way off..

[Boston]

Im all for you Teddy

also it pays to all be useing the same brand of tape round the shop

ps
you double posted brother
thought for a minute there I needed to stop drinking

[TeddyDiver]

ps
you double posted brother
thought for a minute there I needed to stop drinking
No need.. and I might pour one for myself too:D Just my connection made some mystery moves along the way..
Sun warms up surfaces even if the air temp remains the same. Warm deck and cold(er) hull makes the difference etc.. These are just those things why people with mm's in their scale have to standardize their workshops to certain tolerances of warmth, humidity and about everything..
Nice boat:)

[Boston]

thanks I took a lot of time picking it
I was considering a slightly smaller friendship sloop
but think Iv finally settled on the schooner
and you are absolutely right about the temp and humidity and all that rot
drives me nuts to have to consider for expansion in any large measures
also makes a great case for building inside
even a large structure needs be constructed if at all possible inside
thats one thing I am dreading about building the coaster
renting the space for gods only know how long it takes to complete the hull

[Landlubber]

oh Boston, a boat like that could be built easily in twelve months.........or maybe 3 years........such is life. Nice project for you.

[Boston]

Im very single minded when I get into a project

Ive built 2500' customs myself and two other guys in under a year
from the ground up
been thinking on this for a long time
Ill be waiting till I have enough to get the hull complete up to and including finish no rig
Ild work most days all day till complete just like it was a custom house I had contracted
Ill hire one carp and have him do the bulk cutting and shaping raised panel shaping and glue ups stuff like that
Ill do the styles and rails on the finish and all the fitting
Ill need him on the bending
maybe a part timer to come in and clean up end of each day
was thinking of having the lofting done by the designer and fair it on the molds
going to steam bend over stringers on a laminated keel
otherwise all is solid
Ill build a jig to space the mortises for the ribs and use another to rout them in
once the ribs are in Ill complete the laminated keel locking them in place
Ill build a steamer capable of doing batches of say forty pieces at a time
might do a marathon bending just to keep the steamer going full tilt
( see how long we last hard at it, if we burn out we can take twelve and come back strong )
planking is red ceder over white oak and minimal glue as Ill be staining the skeleton once I roll it
was thinkin full time the two of us could have it rolled upright and the topsides on her in six months
oh
I got a great trick for beveling planking
place the plank in place square and run a router up the seam on a guide
makes a perfect fit in the time it takes clamp the guide in place and plow
works like a charm or at least it used to
never tried it on 2" plank before
could be interesting
got a similar trick on the scarfs

rigging this thing Ive got no clue how long that will take
nor do I know how long the engine and electronics will take me
I do know Im going to hate drilling holes in my beautiful hull
but the woodwork I got down to an art
will have it upright in stalks in six maybe a little longer depends on how crazy I decide to get with say raised panel round over doors and bulkheads trim and so on
basically if I keep it simple I can pound it out
if I get tricky it will take longer

dam that rambled
sorry but I get all antsy just thinkin about it
been itching to get after this for years

B

dam I should just erase this

[Manie B]

jeez thank gawd i am not alone

renting the space for gods only know how long it takes to complete the hull


to find a suitable "building space" is turning out to be a nightmare for me :confused:

[Boston]

Im dreading the 2000 a month or so fee
thats why Im going to go hells bells to get it flipped and out of the building soonest

am hoping I can find somewhere cheep cheep cheep
there are lots of empty ware houses at the moment
just Im not ready to go for it yet

[TeddyDiver]

I bought a second hand tent 5x12meters (17'x40') with 2k€. Now I'm isolating it 4'' from the inside. Last two years I've had reasonable building weather smth like ~2month/year.. It makes me wonder what the heck I'm doing so far north (70N)

[Tad]

Boston.....note you don't have to have a huge empty building to start a boat in. You can do the lofting (or have someone do it in a computer) and build parts for a long time before getting the big space to set her up in.

Parts like frames, floors, stem, transom, deck beams, house parts, hatches, tanks, mast steps, engine beds, backbone parts, ballast keel, etc.....

[Boston]

you're right but isnt it more accurate and quicker to build on the molds
Im thinkin of spending some time on the molds making them dam beefy and jigsaw like complete ready to accept bulkheads, stringers and keel and so on
I want to pick up that first stick of wood and go balls out till I get her flipped and topsides decked and sealed hull ready to roll out

I was thinking it best to set in the bulk heads, laminate the keel on the molds up to the bearding line and then carve in the frame pockets ( mortises ) install the bents, bring the keel up to flush with them and then plank, completing the laminated keel once I can lock all together

feel free to correct any perceived errors in my planned process

money aside I want her done from the minute I start and would rather pay an extra month or so of rent than take a year building bits and pieces in my spare time

once I own a pile of timber Ill start a thread on building the Sophia Christina
picture guide to building a small schooner kind of thing

[PAR]

If your design has keel pockets, which receive frame heels, then it's a very poor and quite antiquated design and building methodology. Pocket anything in the bilge and you'll have rot in short order. It also has a tendency to "cantilever" the frames over the first stringer, which usually breaks the frame between rabbet and second bilge stringer, leaving the garboards with little support.

[Boston]

no I was referring to ribs mortised into the keel

unless I misunderstood you completely and locking the frames into the keel on a wood build is somehow not ok

[Tad]

Sophia Christina will take a minimum of 12,000 man hours to finish bare bones. That is with one guy who knows what he's doing and another who does not. Clean up is extra. And that's the hours to cut the pieces and put them together, with no extra to find the pieces and bring them to the shop or figure out how they go together.

You're talking about compressing several man/years into 6 months? Try 8-10 months of 10 hour days, 6.5 days a week. Yes, I know you can do it.

Build a smaller boat and see how it goes.

[PAR]

Ribs and frames are interchangeable words. Yes, ribs pocketed into the keel, is a very bad design consideration. My construction drawings of Sophia Christina show the frames lying on top of the keel batten (as they should), not pocketed or mortised. Do not change construction details without a complete understanding of the forces and engineering involved.

I'm also in agreement with Tad in that 12,000 hours would be a conservative estimate of build hours. Which means 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (a man has to rest), 52 weeks per year until it's done. That's a little shy of 6 years, continuous effort without holidays or vacation.

[Boston]

youch
I dont have info other than what is provided on Ted's site for her
Ive done frame over keel and a keelson many times as a kid
but was thinking on a laminated keel ( Ive not worked with anything but solid other than in home construction ) that is lathered in epoxy anyway
it would be stronger to build the frames into the keel I would think rather than leave what amounts to blocking out from between them
I was thinkin everything being buried in epoxy anyway it would prevent water from infiltrating the joint
also I'm going with white oak on the skeleton which is highly rot resistant ( yes I know about the epoxy considerations of white oak )
so I was thinking it would be ok
glad you guys mentioned it and would be more than open to hear any additional you may have

have not got a construction method set in stone
but I was thinkin that Ild use full length steam bent for the ribs locked into the keel
am actually dying to see the prints for this boat
but want to wait till I have my budget fully set aside before I purchase anything

start to finish this project is going to take one year come hell or high water
if I have to hire more guys so be it
but its on a one year time frame
was hoping to roll out of the shop in six months and finish in the open
that may not work out so well but Ill see how its going at the six mark and make my decision from there

[Boston]

my theory on how long this is going to take is a best guess based on things Ive built before although Ive not taken on a large boat project as an adult
I do remember that my grandfather and father were interminably slow carpenters
drove me nuts
although at least Robby was accurate as all hell

my last log home was 3200 sq ft and I built it with one helper in less than a year
I aim for less than a year on everything I build


http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/sc006021a6.jpg

a picture of a screwed up stairway

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/sc006039be.jpg

picture of Henry
this was my helper on the job
between us we did the foundation log erection roof chinking all the elec plumb heating drywall and everything else you can think of
guy worked like a dog
he was great
got him for 25 hour and once he was done with the project he got on with one of the bigger log contractors as a supervisor and ended up at about 40 pr


hears yours truly working into the wee hours trying to get things done on time
http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/sc0060477b.jpg

in the end I didnt learn how to get such a large project done by not listening to folks on my way up
so I appreciate the info as to hours
I think Ill contact Ted again and see if he can give me an estimate of man hours
to my eye seeing the frame and given the planking style Im just not seeing three years two guys
and given that you folks are highly recommending I just go with the construct style indicated and not try to beef things up any
this looks like a pretty straight forward easy build

[PAR]

"Beefing things up" in a static load situation, like a house means you just pay unnecessarily more for materials. Beefing things up in a dynamically loaded structure, like a boat, means you impose increased stresses on the other structural elements plus pay unnecessarily more for materials.

Making things heftier in boats almost always results in a weaker structure, unless you started with a lightly built boat. Ted's design is not likely built, quite the opposite in fact. I strongly recommend you not alter the structure's scantlings or at least discuss all the proposed changes with him first.

[rasorinc]

Boston, I always beefed up homes and buildings, however I was dealing with snow loads, some as high as 250lbs per sq. ft. near Donner Lake. In dealing with hardwoods if 1" material is called out, then 1.5" material is acceptable in softwoods and usually weighs the same. All structural frames I use are Doug Fir CVG or SS and I hand pick it out. Loes and Home Depot in Oregon sell 2x4 and 2 x 6 @2 and better and let you cull through. In 18 boards I found 5- 2 x 4 CVG and paid $2.04 each for 10' pcs. In culling 2 x 6 x 10' I went thru about 40 pcs to find 7 CVG and paid $3.19 each. Thats 30 cents a BF. They are sopping wet but are in a heated space until I find a kiln where they will let me throw in 30 pcs for about $15.00. JUst some info for you. With epoxy DF will last 50 years or much longer if kept dry. Wood lasts Generations.
Best to you, Stan PS Looking at 20' - 22' stock now for stringers. all nominal deminsions of course. I expect to pay for frames and stringers and double cross ties (20) and dbl keels on my 30' x 9' cat to be under $300.00 and that is a true statement. Now, if only the price of bronze screws and bolts would come down..................... Go here and on the left click on wood, pywood and click on boat building wood and under hardwoods you will find white oak. Not to be used with epoxy in salt water. then go on to softwoods. lots of info here. http://www.glen-l.com/

[peter radclyffe]

Ditto that Lubber. There's nothing like rolling it into the sun light for the first time and having a real look at the curves and shapes that were too poorly lit or housed in too close a space to see properly, to prove (or disprove) your building abilities.

I just experienced this (for the umpteenth time) recently. Bright Florida sun doesn't let a single flaw hide.

when I patterned Lulworth & made a new lines plan, primarily for the new lead keel, but also for models & documentation, I found the original build was 2" wider on the stbd side, this 120 foot yacht was built in 7 months so error crept in

[Boston]

I most certainly will
I also very much appreciate the tip
I always build a tad "heavy" and my customers have always commented on how solid there houses feel
I even built one in a hundred and fifty mile wind zone
now that was one beefy house

the pay extra for materials part I dont mind so much
but the places adjacent components under additional stress part does raise an eyebrow

my thinking is Im going to be in colder waters and know all about hitting ice
Im not building an ice breaker
but I want to not wince every time I hear a chunk go bouncing down the planking
I was thinking of planking it like a cold molded with two diagonal layers and one longitudinal
but again
its just thoughts at this point as to how to build the bomb hull

and thanks Ras
soon as I get some sleep Ill check out the site
there is a special epoxy for white oak now that is supposed to be great
Ill do some experimenting and some boiling and see for myself
thing is its about 150 a gallon
I can get white oak custom cut and milled to spec for 2 a foot
under if I order in bulk
a wild guess on the scantlings and I come up with 3,150 board feet of white oak and 2,250 board feet of red ceder and about 2,500 feet of cherry for the deck houses and interior trim
ordering it all at once I can get my cost per foot down to about $1.50
thats a tad over ten k for the majority of the wood
Im happy with that and I get top quality custom cut personally selected tree bowls out of Missouri
cut in an old time mill and kiln dried to specification

after that its lead and paint and Im rolling out

Ive done lots of crazy builds with white oak and I love the stuff
pine is pine no mater how you slice it

Peter
hmmmmm
nice call on the price one can pay for moving at to ambitious of a pace
Ild be one pissed off pup if my brand new yacht I payed gods only knows how much for was two inches off

my thinking on that would be similar to my thinking on bracing a house
leave all bracing in till all framing is complete
ive seen housed get all screwed up just cause some fool pulled the braces before he had the frame done
my molds will be multiple layers of plywood jigsawed together in a three dimensional grid pattern and left in after rolling untill all deck beams are in and all is fully planked
I can cut em out when the time comes but trying to preserve em is a mistake I learned not to make as a kid
any way this is getting long so Ill call it
thanks folks
B

[PAR]

If I remember correctly she's a carvel build, not a molded build (though I do think there's a strip option available). Considerable re-engineering would be required to convert the planking to molded. Again, it's not wise to make this level of alteration to the scantlings without a full understanding of the structure and it's engineering.

[Boston]

I think you are right on the carvel call
but there is an option
Ild obviously consult Ted when the time comes but untill I actually send him some money Im not going to bug him
my theory is that if I mold it I will only be making it stiffer in a uniform way
cant possibly screw up to much if I also beef up the top side accordingly
basically just stiffening the skin

[FAST FRED]

"start to finish this project is going to take one year come hell or high water
if I have to hire more guys so be it "

Start wit a crew , the work goes faster.

When we built commercial boats , it was just a question of X manhours to complete.

A crew will make EZ tasks that will tax a single worker , and the time to build is less! with a rational sized crew.

FF

[rasorinc]

this link is an adhesive for white oak and epoxy. may be the one your talking about or a new one for you. Expensive...
http://www.star-distributing.com/smith/oakandteak.html Makes no mention of Salt water usage.

[Boston]

perfect advice Fred
thats my thinkin on this
its sounds like more man hours than I thought but thats just more guys
and a few more bucks

nother little theory I have is
if I were looking to save money
I wouldnt be building a yacht

[Tad]

Many folks seem to think a boat is just a little house when it comes to construction time or effort. Houses go together quickly as all parts can be stock sizes and simple square fits are the norm.

A boat is not a house....Actually a properly built wooden boat is closer to gigantic piece of furniture, one where no joint is the same, and everything is at odd angles with varying bevels. Going into it house builders never understand why boats take so long to build, but it comes to them once they start trying to fit the pieces together.

[peter radclyffe]

this is one of the best descriptions of our work i've ever read, "While the springtime turned slowly into autumn",Dylan

[peter radclyffe]

"start to finish this project is going to take one year come hell or high water
if I have to hire more guys so be it "

Start wit a crew , the work goes faster.

When we built commercial boats , it was just a question of X manhours to complete.

A crew will make EZ tasks that will tax a single worker , and the time to build is less! with a rational sized crew.

FF
If at all possible, can you buy the land to build your private boat on, it will save you thousands & you can always sell the land

[Boston]

having built many pieces of furniture and other custom pieces
I can appreciate where you are coming from
and having most of my adult experience in custom homes
it particularly hits home
at the same time
I look at this frame and I keep thinkin
ok Ill do this then that then this again and done and on to the next step
thing is
the most common error Ive made in estimating time
is looking at how long it would take "me" to do something
and it may take someone else
since there is only so many of me
a little longer

teds straight up design actually looks like a wonderful old school design
needing little or no glue
If I were to steam bend and go with stick frame it seams that bolts and hook scarfs would do the trick
not sure but looking at this thing Ild wonder if my grand dad and Ted didnt go to the same school
I think its what I love so much about it is that I understand it
simple straight forward old school
Carvel or Clinker built
same thing I did way back in the day in the boat house with my dad and grand dad
so many moons ago
ah
memories

Sofia Christina is perfect for me
or maybe the big friendship sloop
but either way
its just rings true to everything I did as a kid learning the trade

B
Resornic
I bookmarked the page
thanks
B

[Manie B]

WELL SAID

Actually a properly built wooden boat is closer to gigantic piece of furniture, one where no joint is the same, and everything is at odd angles with varying bevels.

boy have you nailed it with that one
especially for the "beginners"
boat building takes TIME - LOTS OF TIME
thanks TAD :D

[Boston]

funny shapes and crazy furniture are my specialty

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/*******nightmare2.jpg

we called this the Darth Vader house
ugliest house on the planet
I did a remodel on it and personally did all the glass and beam work

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/sc00c39bc901.jpg

then of course there is the frame of that English conservatory

http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r420/maxtanks/sc00c39bc9.jpg

I built this thing out of Sitka spruce in about a month
was particularly difficult because all the glass was pre ordered ( I was pretty confident in my prints so I decided to save some time and go ahead and order ) and I had about a sixteenth all the way around each piece to work with
so if I wanted that last piece to fit I needed all the rest perfect
oh
every piece fit first time
I was dam proud of that thing
I hear you on the big project and keep it coming
I very much appreciate all the advice folks
am going to need it

one thing I was thinkin
I hate working upside down
on the schooner I was thinkin ( feel free if this is a dumb idea so sing out )
I want to build some serious molds and flip her over in them
the molds with be out of plywood and in a three dimensional grid like interlocking configuration with multiple laser holes to keep the thing perfect and plumb
I also hate jury rigged scaffolding
old Roby would have bad scaffolding sitting out in the yard wherever it landed if he thought it was crooked or simply not up to snuff
so I learned the value of neat looking early
thing is I was thinking if Im building the hull upside down
why dont I put a set of steps in the molds all the way around to stand on while I work
Ive never worked on a huge boat before on my own
so Im just trying to think of ways to make things go smoothly
I would dearly love to just walk up the hull with a piece in hand walk up the molds to the required altitude and stick it in place
Sophia stands twelve feet
so the last thing I want is to waist time crawling on my back or weaseling my way up some pretzel looking scaffolding
Im ok with building some seriously beefy molds
if it means I end up with a straight and accurate boat
sorry that was kinda long
but you guys are a gold mine

B

oh
also was thinking of poring a caisson to set my laser up on
thing is I know that slab Im working on is going to breath some with the seasons
Ill go with a benchmark but Im concerned about the slab underneath the molds staying straight
( I could build it over grade beams but now we are talking money )
if I poor my own and Im not certain I will
Ill poor it over lots of squeegee but still
whats the verdict on building on jacks or building to the floor with shims
who does what and whats the general consensus as to which ends up most accurate

[FAST FRED]

From a building point the best part of a wooden boat its its built piece by piece, so if a new part is unacceptable it can be tossed and a better fitting part made.

The boats that pop out of a vacum bag have ONE CHANCE , to be perfect , a miss gets the entire hull scrapped.

If I were building in wood (UGH! much prefer the Franz Mass male plug AIREX method) I would use a cold molded system of multiple layers of thin plywood covered with an epoxy+ dynell surface.

Far less skills are required than std carvell planking , and it need not have the slab side look of ply sheets.

FF

[Rabbetline]

Just a quick reply to agree with PAR on almost all things.

Lofting offsets are feet/inches/eigths of an inch/ (+/- in reality means a little bit more or less than the eigth of an inch.) The most important thing when lofting a boat is to end up with lines that are 'fair', NOT lines that slavishly follow the offset table.

I am putting the finishing touches to a 'step by step' lofting book -almost all drawings, very few words - (I've worked as a boatbuilding instructor/lecturer since 2000 and am now going freelance) which will be ready for publication in the next few months. This is not a sales pitch, but please get in touch for more info.

Keel pockets, a sure fire way to end up with rot in the keel structure (any water just runs down the edges of the pocket, and sits in the keel, rotting it from the inside out), better to let the frames span the keel, or cut them off flush with the top of the keel and tie them together with metal strap floors (expensive - especially in bronze, but worth it long-term).

Beefing up some parts of the boat. All that this ends up doing is putting additional strain on the other parts of the boat, which can result in unforseen problems.

[Boston]

would love to check out your book when you get it up for sale

Ill definitely take the consensus view on the laminated keel
timber built is cheaper anyway
all the builds Ive done were frame over keel timber built
although I would have thought all that epoxy would negate the possibility of rot on a laminated keel

[PAR]

In a perfect world all our joints would have exactly matching faces, fasteners wouldn't split lumber, there would be no epoxy voids within a glue line and our wives would have happily given up their runway modeling jobs, to have our sons. The sad reality is that in spite of our best efforts, joint starvation is a common problem and moisture will find a way to live in these pockets. Yes, a laminated keel is a good option and it will stave off many potential issues, longer then a similar keel of conventional techniques, but the end result will be the same.

[Boston]

no way
I let her keep the job
she loves modeling