Making a high efficency 3 Kw DC Generator [Archive]

alan white

03-08-2009, 01:02 PM

A B&S Etek or Etek RT should run a continuous 6 hp I think, at around $500, but the controller (as it is with the German Perm) is vital, at $450, making close to a grand for the combo.
The batteries should put out 72vdc to get this kind of power (and more--- maybe 19hp for a short burst), so a bank of six batteries (at maybe $200 apiece = $1200, so $3000 plus cabling, switches, panel/guage, etc..
The generator would be rated for continuous use, and so would likely be a diesel, and should be a good sized unit as that will ensure longevity and shorter operating cycles. A 10 kw unit ($8000?) would probably be about right.
Cost? Well, my guess is 6 hp continuous is fine for up to 4 tons as long as the reserve hp is as high as 30 hp for short bursts, but an extra motor and a bigger controller (maybe 600 amp) should be added, adding another $1000, so---
$13,000?
Maybe some of my figures are a ways off. The setup described (12 hp continuous, 38 hp for short periods) might provide enough power to push a 36footer at 8 tons. The 6 batteries wouldn't be enough to last more than an hour or so, so more would be required, maybe 6 more, so add $1200.
None of this is researched but just off the top of my head, but you see it isn't a simple or cheap venture.
Run time could be continuous so long as the generator is constantly running, or the generator could be up-sized, but you can see the system is problematic in terms of space, cost, complexity, and usefulness. The few percent of gains in efficiency work much better on very large boats daily-use that benefit from savings over time. Pleasure boats don't get used enough to make electric hybrid drive cost effective.

kistinie

03-08-2009, 01:18 PM

Frosty

03-08-2009, 01:19 PM

What the hell do you want DC for?

An industrial unit made by Yanmar in deisel can be bought for much less than the marine component. Electric start etc with 3Kw output glassed in with air cooling is not difficult, no water cooling or heat exchangers. The best bit of kit on the boat,--- when I am beached.

TeddyDiver

03-08-2009, 01:27 PM

Cheap..

(Hz) 50
(V) 230
(A) 12,2
continous(kW) 2,8
max(kW) 3,0
DC : 12V / 8,3A
599,00 €

kistinie

03-08-2009, 01:33 PM

Cheap..

(Hz) 50
(V) 230
(A) 12,2
continous(kW) 2,8
max(kW) 3,0
DC : 12V / 8,3A
599,00 €

Yes perfect !

But ....how do i feed the 48V batteries ?
My aim is to feed batteries to run the 48 V motor

And rather than adding a charger, i prefer direct DC with rectifier and regulator. Safer also

And i insist on water injection for exhaust
This is simple, gives efficiency by exhaust gas temperature reduction, that increase torque, and also as a bonus, cancel noise. This trick is used for racing with great success as well as on pantone motors
This will be used on stock 2010 Renault car too, with additional water heating before injection in exhaust gas
here application would be easy as speed of motor is constant

a basic version
http://www.pg-si.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=33.

Picture : water injection for race car

My need : In between

Of course this works also with your big propulsion engine... :-))

alan white

03-08-2009, 02:16 PM

I was really thinking to a small 3Kw solution
my boat is razor sharp and light. need nothing to move

Rather gas than diesel, for occasional use
Typical use, going up river, day with o wind

Wind cooled except exhaust

Easy to get in and out
used outside in a box you open, with noise directed behind stern with a clever acoustical panel design

No controller, just rectifier and regulator, in fact a 48V alternator

The same thing than 220w groups but 48V DC and modified exhaust.
I really need this for my trimaran, the light emergency outboard i keep is too difficult to use when i sail single handed
I see, you mean direct, simple and not for constant use. I think the concept is a good one, for occasional use. Light in weight, not so expensive.
I'd think the exhaust could be as supplied, i.e., not water cooled, so further simplify, with the entire unit being removable for easy maintainence. AC power might be the best solution for cost and efficiancy. A pair of 2500w AC generators would be cheap and redundant, where one could be used normally unless real speed was desired. Light enough to carry with one in each hand!

kistinie

03-08-2009, 02:35 PM

Alan

i like the idea of two low cost plus 2 chargers

But efficiency of low cost product is poor, KW per gallon disastrous !

On another hand, salt will destroy it so fast, why put a lot of money inside ?

I do not give up with water injection i like the concept !

alan white

03-08-2009, 04:07 PM

You like the electric drive, but why if a 4 stroke outboard of 5 hp would do?

kistinie

03-08-2009, 04:13 PM

You like the electric drive, but why if a 4 stroke outboard of 5 hp would do?

For noise
For trust when wavy conditions
For electric power i get when sailing up to 2KW produced i hope... and i need a lot for PC and other lecombe et schmitt things
For ergonomic reason ...

With the 3.5 HP (yes !) motor i have to stand on the stern using the direct emergency rudder. Alone it is hell to keep a correct language.

alan white

03-08-2009, 04:42 PM

Pardon your French!
How do you plan to position the motor? Through the tri transom?
By the way, I like the self-generating prop idea. I think you might combine a small air-cooled diesel with an efficient generator. Seal it's box well from salt spray. As far as silence goes, you need some serious battery weight to get silence for long. Can your multihull deal with that kind of weight? Each battery will weigh 25 kilos, have maybe 60 AH, store 720 watt hours, about one hp for one hour, so 5 hp or so will deplete the batteries in little over an hour. The bank of say, 6 batteries will weigh 150 kilos. That's an hour top speed for every 150 kilos of batteries, or two hours at normal cruising speed, perhaps. Then the generator kicks in. A water cooled exhaust makes sense for reasons of noise because you will not want to listen to an air exhaust for long. Also a good reason to find a water-cooled diesel )(much quieter and more marinizable). Something like a small tractor engine, probably Chinese. Many are available cheap, but reliability? I don't know.

kistinie

03-08-2009, 05:39 PM

Yes France !

Glad you like regeneration, make really sense on fast light sailing boats
We can even do much better than hybrid sailing boat
http://www.planetsolar.org/bateau.en.php

Outboard is on the side on 2 rails close to rudder. Works only when water flat
150 kg of lead is less than on hour high speed, but i think 6 low speed as i am very efficient with very small wet area, and very narrow, therefore drag is not linear
how do you get heat out of the box for generator ?
A radiator to salt water inside box ?

i already have two yanmar IGM and no
Too big for me
Too heavy close to 60 kg.

i will use the generator once a month i guess, not more

Some like APEX, do not want to accept that this works fine for years on charter boats equipped with Agni or Lynch motors...Read, ask and you will see it is true ! Regenerating at 6 knts for one hour gives 10 minutes motoring 5 knts on a light boat. at 12 knts you will get 3 times this.
you do not go as long as fast than with ic engine but you refuel in silence, for nothing.
And once again this is impossible (poorly efficient) with an heavy boat

apex1

03-08-2009, 05:45 PM

By the way, I like the self-generating prop idea.

Something like a small tractor engine, probably Chinese. Many are available cheap, but reliability? I don't know.

Alan, the idea might attract at a first glimpse, you soon give up on a second. The induced drag of a prop genny is incredible, you might as well plow an anchor. Its a contadiction to a multihulls advantages. Adding the weight of a sufficient battery (to escape a lee shore at full throttle for example) adds noteciable weight (and cost) too. I cannot see any advantage of such system.

A cheap (Chinese, Indian) Tractor Diesel, is a possible choice to run your genny at your off grid retreat, if it fails, drive home. But such metal chunk is never a choice aboard.

Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-08-2009, 06:02 PM

incredible drag of propeller ? An anchor !
Can you be more precise ?...and if possible shall we return for this, to prop subject please, not here it is for a 3 kw air cooled generator with water injected exhaust Thanks !

apex1

03-08-2009, 06:32 PM

That does´nt work, except you carry a sufficient amount of sweetwater in your tanks. Saltwater destroys your injector and manifold in no time.

And... we are not at a prop subject, but at a prop driven genny. You really should take some time to read what people reply on your posts.

And.. NO, I do´nt like to be more precise, that subject was handled here and elsewhere almost to death. I´s not worth to go in deep. And links I do´nt like to provide anymore at your threads, you do´nt use them anyway.

kistinie

03-08-2009, 06:44 PM

That does´nt work, except you carry a sufficient amount of sweetwater in your tanks. Saltwater destroys your injector and manifold in no time.

is it your opinion or experience ?
if experience with what equipement
size, brand, debit, type of pump ???

if opinion, can you explain how you went to this conclusion ?

And... we are not at a prop subject, but at a prop driven genny.

No, here generator is not prop driven, electric motor does this already ! i use fuel for running a generator you should be happy...Please it is already difficult enough for me to accept the idea of a petrol generator, do not hurt me more !

You really should take some time to read what people reply on your posts.

Yes love you too dear Richard

apex1

03-08-2009, 07:27 PM

is it your opinion or experience ?

bet..

No, here generator is not prop driven, electric motor does this already !

Electric motor drives generator?

Yes love you too dear Richard

What am I doing here? I´m mad.

.

fin

masalai

03-08-2009, 08:04 PM

kistinie, I like the diesel generator idea and http://www.onsitepower.com.au/products/marine/dc722m.htm is an example based on a 3 cylinder 719cc Kubota Diesel Engine... Sadly http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/marine_genset_lomb.htm is not made now? but the Polar Power generator is very efficient, brushless and configurable.... Most brushless electric motors require a sophisticated pulse mode controller to operate at the efficiencies you talk about as energy losses of pure DC and otherwise control is probably somewhat problematical.... I am looking at developments in the Torqeedo leg from Germany/Europe???? 2000 & 4000 w options in the cruise R range using 24 and 48v respectively and co-gen coming soon...

Ilan Voyager

03-08-2009, 08:04 PM

kistinie

03-08-2009, 08:30 PM

Why to go to a so complicated scheme for 3 Kw? when a simple 5 HP outboard 4 S will do the job? Gosh, the old engineer I am scratches his head. Ok on a big ship where a few % saved on thousands of Kw are significant, balanced to the cost of investment. The true price of your hybrid is far higher that you think...add the cost of an heavier boat, and all that needed for a real working hybrid.

I used to have a yanmar 1gm+sd20 inside
Don't want it any more
same for outbord

Electric choice is done.
Price is low, in my budget.
No problemo.
Do not worry, i really beleive in my study.

Now i miss the 3 kw dc electric generator, air cooled, very efficient, light ...

Masalai

yes nice choice, but 3 cylinders...is certainly expensive...very good result for 98 Kg.
But to big for me
Need half size of this, even if just 2.5 Kw
50kg is the max, also a question of available space, that i do not have
Cheers !

apex1

03-08-2009, 08:48 PM

Electric choice is done.
Price is low, in my budget.
No problemo.
Do not worry, i really beleive in my study.

Now i miss the 3 kw dc electric generator, air cooled, very efficient, light ...

Francois, you are not to cure.
You know already the price is low! But naturally you do´nt know if your sort of genny does exist, let alone the cost. Thats pure entertainment.:p
I know such generator, as I know the price, naturally. No, no further links for you. Find it out the hard way.
I´ll ask for your solutions, once I encounter a serious problem.:D

kistinie

03-08-2009, 09:16 PM

You are welcome !

Richard ! You are my entertainment !
You are pure gold. The cream of humanity.
You are perfect !

Don't change a thing !

alan white

03-08-2009, 09:51 PM

"Glad you like regeneration, make really sense on fast light sailing boats
We can even do much better than hybrid sailing boat
http://www.planetsolar.org/bateau.en.php

Outboard is on the side on 2 rails close to rudder. Works only when water flat
150 kg of lead is less than on hour high speed, but i think 6 low speed as i am very efficient with very small wet area, and very narrow, therefore drag is not linear
how do you get heat out of the box for generator ?
A radiator to salt water inside box ?

i already have two yanmar IGM and no
Too big for me
Too heavy close to 60 kg.

i will use the generator once a month i guess, not more"

I see. Well, you are in the same predicament as anyone who installs an inboard engine. Raw water or fresh, simple or more complicated. A cast iron engine block can last for twenty years in salt water, especially if not used too often. I guess I'd go that route, just a raw water pump run off the engine. You might look for a rebuildable Vire Danish 7 hp 2 stroke, which is light and usually raw water cooled, with a built-in pump. They run on kerosene when warmed up. Very reliable and simple but not clean running or efficient. But if you're getting most power from the prop, it shouldn't be a big problem. Or maybe there are some water cooled engines out there in that size range.

alan white

03-08-2009, 10:02 PM

I assume it would be possible to modify an outboard motor to accept an electric motor generator (a controller is required). Then the prop only delivers power when wind is strong. Otherwise, the unit is raised. Again, however, 150 kilos of battery bank will yield no more than a couple of hours of low speed (4 kts?) cruising before the genny has to run. A feathering prop on the hull won't work as a generator, and it's true the prop is a drag.
I'd think a wind generator is the way to go.

pistnbroke

03-08-2009, 10:28 PM

Frosty

03-08-2009, 10:51 PM

A freind of mine spent 1 year on the hard converting his 54 foot cat with electric Vetus motors with controllers and chargers etc. It was nothing less than a disaster, gutless waste of time. He could not move the boat longer than 6 hours even with the 6KW generator as the chargers could not keep up with demand.

What would have been wrong with two deisel motors.?

It had 8 batteries per side with 4 chargers a generator etc etc. How heavy is all that?

The enormous feed cables must have weight 100 kilo.

The boat has been for sale 2 years now and I personally look after this boat and show them around,-- no one has made an offer to date.

Landlubber

03-09-2009, 12:39 AM

Teddy Diver,

Continuous, in the context described, is not continuous, it means that it can actually put out that much when running.

That sort of gen set has no hope of survival if actually ran continuously.

kistinie

03-09-2009, 02:07 AM

Until i find a light air cooled 48V DC genny, 2/3 Kw, weighting less than 40 kg

i still have this inexpensive and very very reliable solution

Direct drive, belt reduction
i think i can direct drive the electric motor propeller shaft with a folding honda 6cv motor.

Only forward will be available on honda motor propulsion
Reverse with electricity only.
exhaust will be water injected, with full hastelloy tubing

Cannot do a simpler and safer solution ?

Yes !

This one of course, that will be aboard too
it was my first engine when a started sailing on "mousquetaire" in the 80's
quite powerful on a boat like mine and my 300 or 400 watts i guess

Human power !

kistinie

03-09-2009, 02:31 AM

You cannot charge you batteries at more than 25 A or they get very hot and and gas ....so 4 x12v (48v) have an on charge voltage of just under 60v so thats 1500 watts at 25A charge rate ..which of course will fall as they approach full charge ...so thats halved the cost of your project !!!

If you bought a 120v 1250w generator the 120v would be tapped at the centre giving 60v/60v Two large diodes and you have 60v at 20a for your charger ........adjust gen speed to regulate output volts ....yes/no ???

Rather yes Pistnbroke yes !

The idea smells very good !

How do you tap the centre point on the alternator, is it usually easy to access ?

Only drawback will be the poor regulation and having 2 battery groups to use the 2 out + and - with the danger to have 120 dc in-between ?
or use only half of the alternator, but in this case i may burn it with over amps ?
a serial inductance can help filtering, and in case of lead batteries, this is not tragic.
has someone tried this ?

pistnbroke

03-09-2009, 02:47 AM

See I am not as stupid as that rep of 3 would have you think...

As to the centre tap ..if its 120v the "earth pin" is the centre tap hence 60v on each output pin relative to the earth pin ...( Yanks are usefull sometimes)
A series or parallel regulator would get very hot but a pulsed regulator like in a dimmer would work ok using two SCRs or MOSFETS

kistinie

03-09-2009, 03:19 AM

We always need someone at the other side of earth !
I will try do dig this a little more

For regulation i can use a a peak suppressor regulator (just like on wind mills) sending extra volts to a resistor
When it gets hot, does a bip and i cut
But as motor will be turning and the battery flat...it will be very long.

apex1

03-09-2009, 08:30 AM

Raw water or fresh, simple or more complicated. A cast iron engine block can last for twenty years in salt water, especially if not used too often. I guess I'd go that route, just a raw water pump run off the engine.

Alan
what Kistinie wanted was´nt a raw water cooling of the engine! He wanted a water injection into the exhaust manifold where the water vaporizes immediately. That does function with gas engines and destilled water (at a high price to pay for proper engineering and installation). But it definetily does not function with saltwater and Diesel engines. The injected water would build up salt, soot and acids in no time throughout the exhaust duct. Not to mention further disadvantages.
But that´s all not the problem, just playing with unmature ideas.
The problem is energy storage. And neither Kistinie, nor anyone else has a solution for that. period
So all the nice thoughts are worth nothing until we have solved that first!
A Diesel engine cannot be subsituted on a seagoing vessel at a reasonable (that is maximum twice the standard installation) price. period again
We all have to love it or leave it.
Regards
Richard

mydauphin

03-09-2009, 08:37 AM

I personally think electric boats are a big mistake unless your a cruise ship or a Navy and need the extra electricity for something.

BUt anyway, to build a low cost Diesel DC generator.
Get a Lawn tractor diesel about 20hp (there are several brands)and hookup two 200 amp alternators from something like a Ford F250 Diesel tractor . Expect motor to run at full power to take load when being used.

You can get lawn tractor engine for about $500, they are water cooled and you can hookup keel cooler. Forget about aircooled, any diesel running at full power trying to generate 400 amp is going to make a bit of heat.

I thought of making one of the run the hydraulics. Instead I am going with Deutz which oil/air cooled. I didn't mention it as a way to go because they are expensive motors.

Everyone wants DC because it is cheaper and easier to throttle motors, however if you look at most good system like Siemens, or hybrid cars, they use AC. AC is much more efficient than DC, the problem is cost of control units. If I want to make a hybrid boat, I would find a crashed hybrid car.
DC vs AC is the difference between Golf Cart and hybrid car.

Suggestions for all electic boaters. Buy the engines with a 30 day money back, install, get batteries and take a short trip around bay. When the performance is not what you want then you can return the very expensive motor without buying the rest of the stuff... Otherwise be prepared to have a Nasa budget to make it work and the performance will be less than simple gas or diesel motor....

alan white

03-09-2009, 01:03 PM

Alan
what Kistinie wanted was´nt a raw water cooling of the engine! He wanted a water injection into the exhaust manifold where the water vaporizes immediately. That does function with gas engines and destilled water (at a high price to pay for proper engineering and installation). But it definetily does not function with saltwater and Diesel engines. The injected water would build up salt, soot and acids in no time throughout the exhaust duct. Not to mention further disadvantages.
But that´s all not the problem, just playing with unmature ideas.
The problem is energy storage. And neither Kistinie, nor anyone else has a solution for that. period
So all the nice thoughts are worth nothing until we have solved that first!
A Diesel engine cannot be subsituted on a seagoing vessel at a reasonable (that is maximum twice the standard installation) price. period again
We all have to love it or leave it.
Regards
Richard

I do agree about the storage problem, which I've brought up several times.
Especially on a light boat, where batteries weigh enough to seriously affect performance.
I believe hybrid cars are viable because they pass through air and not water, but boats require a lot of constant energy to pass through something as viscous as water. I do agree that some boats can benefit from the use of an electric motor in order to relocate the diesel, to run the diesel at optimum RPM, and to avoid the power-robbing transmission.
However it may appear at first glance to be a "hybrid" sytem, such a setup is better termed an electric drive---- and even the weight of batteries is not a problem because such a system can work direct generator to motor.
However, in pleasure boats, as I said earlier, a system involving both diesel and electric components is an expensive setup.
In a work boat, initial outlay of capital is hopefully oiffset by daily savings, but a pleasure boat isn't used that way. Small or even moderate savings in fuel, in other words, never offset initial cost of building the system.
I think under the right circumstances, an electric DRIVE (not hybrid) makes sense on a sailboat. This would be where only a medium/small battery bank was required, and where the prop could be used to generate electricity at times while under way.
Such a system would allow the diesel generator to be relocated (to typical vee drive location, mid-boat or even forward of that). It would eliminate the transmission and its attendant friction losses. In addition, a moderately small battery bank could allow silent operation for short periods, and emergency maneuvering when the diesel wouldn't start.
With more batteries, the advantage becomes running the diesel at constant RPM, but in such a case, the batteries are acting as, and eliminating regular ballasting.
The most efficient drive for a multihull, considering initial cost, operation over time, and performance-wise, would be something like a high-thrust outboard with remote controls and a power lift. A ten hp unit from Yamaha might cost $2500 US, and it would run very quietly on gasoline. It would weigh about 125 lbs with all gear. I don't see how any other system could compete for price and efficiency if the unit is only an auxilliary, used only occasionally.

alan white

03-09-2009, 01:12 PM

Alan
what Kistinie wanted was´nt a raw water cooling of the engine! He wanted a water injection into the exhaust manifold where the water vaporizes immediately. That does function with gas engines and destilled water (at a high price to pay for proper engineering and installation). But it definetily does not function with saltwater and Diesel engines. The injected water would build up salt, soot and acids in no time throughout the exhaust duct. Not to mention further disadvantages.
But that´s all not the problem, just playing with unmature ideas.
The problem is energy storage. And neither Kistinie, nor anyone else has a solution for that. period
So all the nice thoughts are worth nothing until we have solved that first!
A Diesel engine cannot be subsituted on a seagoing vessel at a reasonable (that is maximum twice the standard installation) price. period again
We all have to love it or leave it.
Regards
Richard

I do agree about the storage problem, which I've brought up several times.
Especially on a light boat, where batteries weigh enough to seriously affect performance.
I believe hybrid cars are viable because they pass through air and not water, but boats require a lot of constant energy to pass through something as viscous as water. I do agree that some boats can benefit from the use of an electric motor in order to relocate the diesel, to run the diesel at optimum RPM, and to avoid the power-robbing transmission.
However it may appear at first glance to be a "hybrid" sytem, such a setup is better termed an electric drive---- and even the weight of batteries is not a problem because such a system can work direct generator to motor.
However, in pleasure boats, as I said earlier, a system involving both diesel and electric components is an expensive setup.
In a work boat, initial outlay of capital is hopefully oiffset by daily savings, but a pleasure boat isn't used that way. Small or even moderate savings in fuel, in other words, never offset initial cost of building the system.
I think under the right circumstances, an electric DRIVE (not hybrid) makes sense on a sailboat. This would be where no battery bank was required, and where the prop could be used to generate electricity at times while under way.
Such a system would allow the diesel generator to be relocated (to typical vee drive location, mid-boat or even forward of that). It would eliminate the transmission and its attendant friction losses. In addition, a moderately small battery bank could allow silent operation for short periods, and emergency maneuvering when the diesel wouldn't start.
With more batteries, the advantage becomes running the diesel at constant RPM, but in such a case, the batteries are acting as, and eliminating regular ballasting.
The most efficient drive for a multihull, considering initial cost, operation over time, and performance-wise, would be something like a high-thrust outboard with remote controls and a power lift. A ten hp unit from Yamaha might cost $2500 US, and it would run very quietly on gasoline. It would weigh about 125 lbs with all gear. I don't see how any other system could compete for price and efficiency if the unit is only an auxilliary, used only occasionally.

apex1

03-09-2009, 04:12 PM

I do agree about the storage problem, which I've brought up several times.
Especially on a light boat, where batteries weigh enough to seriously affect performance.
That was my objection at a 2 ton boat.
I do agree that some boats can benefit from the use of an electric motor in order to relocate the diesel, to run the diesel at optimum RPM, and to avoid the power-robbing transmission.
That easily is solved by using a CPP!

However, in pleasure boats, as I said earlier, a system involving both diesel and electric components is an expensive setup.
I agree, Diesel El. is expensive and not environmental friendly.
In a work boat, initial outlay of capital is hopefully oiffset by daily savings, but a pleasure boat isn't used that way. Small or even moderate savings in fuel, in other words, never offset initial cost of building the system.
Agree again, and due to system related losses there are no savings ever.
I think under the right circumstances, an electric DRIVE (not hybrid) makes sense on a sailboat. This would be where only a medium/small battery bank was required, and where the prop could be used to generate electricity at times while under way.
If the prop is used to generate El. in a 2 ton Multihull, it will nearly stop up the boat to half the speed possible, I guess.
Such a system would allow the diesel generator to be relocated (to typical vee drive location, mid-boat or even forward of that). It would eliminate the transmission and its attendant friction losses. Let me point again to the CPP. No losses. And a modern gearbox has losses of 3-4% only.

Alan I hope you do´nt mind the way I answered.
Regards
Richard

alan white

03-09-2009, 06:16 PM

In the final analysis, the outboard appears toi be the best overall solution for the boat in question, whether or not it fits the needs of any one particular sailor (with respect to kistanie's personal requirements, which need not be similar to mine).
A multi weighing 2 tons need only have about 6 hp as said. An inboard minimum diesel would be heavier than an outboard, and much much more money. The outboard, if 6 hp, might weigh about 35 kilos. To haul around a diersel/electric system for non-sail propulsion in a multi would not be good for general performance, even if the weight is only 150 kilos. Weight is obviously extremely important to multihull sailing.
Electric generation is always a problem if you have an outboard due to the small amperage output. In a case like that an inboard (small diesel) might be warranted despite the weight penalty---- you must give up something to get something, especially where weight is concerned.

marshmat

03-09-2009, 06:18 PM

Small CPPs are pretty hard to come by on our side of the pond, Richard, and when you do find one over here the price tag is astronomical. I don't have the slightest clue why this is the case.

For a small DC generator to charge the house bank at anchor, I think the earlier suggestion of a lawn tractor engine with a couple of chunky alternators is a hard one to beat.

For propulsion, I've said it on other threads and I'll say it again here- diesel/electric drive, in a boat, only makes sense if the house loads and the propulsion loads are of comparable magnitude. (See "cruise ship".) In most pleasure craft, the house loads are smaller than the propulsion loads- often by one or two orders of magnitude. Diesel/electric just isn't economical under these conditions.

The idea of a transmission with 10-20% loss comes from old car automatics with non-lockup torque converters- a manual, or a marine gear, uses all-mechanical torque coupling and only wastes a few percent of the power.

apex1

03-09-2009, 08:13 PM

In the final analysis, the outboard appears toi be the best overall solution for the boat in question, whether or not it fits the needs of any one particular sailor (with respect to kistanie's personal requirements, which need not be similar to mine).

Alan
I agree. But we are not talking about any sensefull propulsion here, we are talking about a dream of the replacement of a proven, reliable, efficient Diesel / prop drive. And installing a heavier, unreliable, unefficient, uneconomical electro propulsion, that will cost twice the price of the former. I know Kistinie dreams about saving weight, less noise, and a sort of "green sailing". Unfortunately, real world data prove, that will remain a dream at present.
You know, I see all the advantages of a Diesel El. system, and you know I did play with some pretty sophisticated systems for my own yacht. But even I came (with all my background and all my capabilities and wholesale prices) to the conclusion to stay with a Diesel and a CPP, for optimal load of engine, economy, reliability and efficiency.

So, to conclude: any kind of electro propulsion as known by today is heavier, less reliable, less efficient, much more expensive, than any IC eng. driven powertrain of either sort in- or outboard. period

And then there was another phantasy of our French engineer, Manpower (he posted a funny picture with some funny calculations), one page back.
Unfortunately this as well was ruled by optimism only. Human power output is in the range of just 150W cont. IF one is trained on the way to deliver that.
Engineering dreams can be a joyful experience, and the world would´nt know the wheel if there was no dreamer in the past, but I see a difference between playing with some broad spread ideas and some sort of serious discussion about propulsion systems. All of Kistinies posts, threads and comments, by now, belonged to the former category exclusively.
Further comment dispensable...............

For propulsion, I've said it on other threads and I'll say it again here- diesel/electric drive, in a boat, only makes sense if the house loads and the propulsion loads are of comparable magnitude. (See "cruise ship".) In most pleasure craft, the house loads are smaller than the propulsion loads- often by one or two orders of magnitude. Diesel/electric just isn't economical under these conditions.

Matt
you´ve got ten points for that! where to send the T-shirt?

Regards
Richard

mydauphin

03-09-2009, 10:18 PM

I paid $500 for a 4 stroke 5 hp Nissan engine less than a year old and $500 for 15hp 2 stroke, including a aluminum 14 foot boat. So it is not just new cost but market price engines that affect benefits. Cost can be even lower than new but on electric that is not an option most of the time.

Frosty

03-10-2009, 12:49 PM

Yes thats right, electric boats are crap. I wrote that on page # 27.

mydauphin

03-10-2009, 10:01 PM

I am moving my boat to highest concentration of electric boat and start charging for tows....

Electric Motors are for windshield wipers.... That will get all you boiling hot.. lol..

apex1

03-10-2009, 10:34 PM

Electric Motors are for windshield wipers.... That will get all you boiling hot.. lol..

Nahh................ Skippers armchair, popup TV, tumble dry, macerator, spy cam, manoman, you obviously have just a tiny genny hähh?:D

mudman

03-11-2009, 02:12 PM

I agree that electric power is just not possible without the assistance of a hydrocarbon fueled engine. Ships and trains use electric motors for the torque, but they run that off of a diesel engine.

Yeah you could produce power through the electric motor at sail, but it's not enough. So the idea is to run this sailboat simmilar to a ship or a locomotive. OK Sure, but why?

I built a camp recently and used 12 volt for lighting, so that I wouldn't hear a noisy generator. But when its hot out and I want air conditioning, I HAVE to run a generator. I could get 20 batteries and run an AC unit, but it would only be for a few hours (high amp draw like your DC motor). Recharging the batteries would take forever using wind or solar. Why would I get a generator to charge batteries for my AC? Why not run a generator directly to the AC unit. If I could figure out a way, I'd run an AC compressor directly off of a small engine. It's very simmilar to your boat and only makes sense.

So why would you buy a 5 hp engine and alternator to charge batteries for your drive system? Why not put that 5 hp engine right on the drive shaft and bypass that extra step of ENERGY LOSS and extra weight? Cut out the middle man.

It is much more efficient to run diesel or gas engine to run the boat. Getting the juice out of the battery is much easier than putting it back in. It takes about 5 times longer to charge a lead acid battery as it does to discharge (given the same Amp rate for charge and discharge).

apex1

03-11-2009, 02:44 PM

So why would you buy a 5 hp engine and alternator to charge batteries for your drive system? Why not put that 5 hp engine right on the drive shaft and bypass that extra step of ENERGY LOSS and extra weight? Cut out the middle man.
EDITED for links
Thats a wasting of energy too, just leave the EL.part, or do it proper if you MUST do it.

Hello mudman,
have a look here:

http://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/white-papers/

download "achieving the impossible" read the article and understand that there are different ways to come to different solutions. And there is a clever one too.
And again, and again, and again:

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20070607/

goto "content" then page 82 "Hybrid Marine Power" read the article in the following issues too.
there are solutions, yes, but even the promoter of such system comes to the conclusion "its not worth"

Regards
Richard

mudman

03-11-2009, 04:03 PM

I believe the law of conservation of energy. Sorry about the energy loss thing. I meant energy converted to heat, rendering it unusable in an electrical system.

I cant see what is being achieved as impossible except that there is no wasted energy from heat through the inverter. This machine is just an inverter/battery charger with a switch. Not enough amps, pull from battery, too many amps put some to the battery. Nothing impossible here, unless I'm missing something. It is a neat little package and can be useful to aid in an situation where there is too much energy than needed, where all extra energy is stored a potential energy in the battery bank. Depends on the price of this deal. A $500 dollar genset and a $300 inverter, with a $40 battery charger may be more cost effective, even though there is more energy than required from the genset.

I think that what is trying to be obtained by kistinie is acheivable, but I can't understand why. I guess that kistinie already has an electric setup, and needs power to recharge the battery bank as cost effective as possible, I'd probably do the same and get a small diesel engine with a car alternator and let it run run run while I was trying to hear nothing while at sea. On the other hand, I probably never would have had a electric motor in my boat because I know that it would be impossible to run it without an elaborate mess of batteries, chargers, alternators, etc. Even the hybrids have a hydrocarbon powered engine to assist. Just put an engine on the driveshaft and be done with it. I haven't seen the numbers, but I'd have to think that a gas or diesel engine would be more energy friendly than any electric/battery/diesel setup.

If energy can' be created or destroyed, then 5 hp generator could not possibly run a 5 hp electric motor, due to heat loss. So you would need a 6 hp generator to acheive power for the 5 hp motor. This generator would run all of the time, even when the motor is not running. Green technology is just not economical, yet. Am I wrong or something here?

apex1

03-11-2009, 04:49 PM

I think that what is trying to be obtained by kistinie is acheivable, but I can't understand why.
Thats the point I try to make clear since more than a week now.

If energy can' be created or destroyed, then 5 hp generator could not possibly run a 5 hp electric motor, due to heat loss. So you would need a 6 hp generator to acheive power for the 5 hp motor. This generator would run all of the time, even when the motor is not running. Green technology is just not economical, yet. Am I wrong or something here?

muddy
Right with you!

So, where is the reason, one´s throwing his small Diesel engine(which he did), then installing crap for twice the money, to end up at the same (or higher) weight, and with less efficiency???
On top of that..... asking us for recommendations of a system he only dreams about?
Do we agree, that a El.propulsion that lets you escape a lee shore or strong tide current is at least twice the weight, twice the cost, twice the hassle, than a simple Diesel propulsion?
Are we of the same opinion, that a Propeller driven generator of sufficient size to feed a battery for such El. propulsion, acts almost like a prop in reverse gear on a boat of 2 tonnes displ.?
So, whats our conclusion?
Electric propulsion in a manner our French friend is dreaming about, is the plain nonsense.

The Victron thoughts I recommended to read, just give the novice a deeper insight in some not so easy to understand correlations.
For old salts it is a helpful hint to rethink the usual Genny installations, and therefore to save some bucks and have more convenient El. system aboard.
I agree there is nothing close to impossible.
Regards
Richard

mudman

03-11-2009, 05:16 PM

Right on my friend.

Generator on the prop is going to slow the boat down plenty. I'm not sure about acting in reverse, but it sure is alot of drag for such small electrical gain. Don't most sailboats have collapsable props while under wind power to minimize drag?

Yeah, Frenchie is dreaming. After all of this stuff is installed the boat will displace 5 tons.

Thanks for the links and info.

alan white

03-11-2009, 09:38 PM

kistanie, if the propellor is not a folding type, the drag induced from the open blades will slow the boat. Another reason to go with an outboard motor. The electric hybrid system cannot be made efficient unless the generator runs constantly during operation. Imagine you wanted to go for 6 hours (not unusual) at 10 knots. If your power requirement were 6 hp, you'd need a battery bank that weighed 2 1/2 tons to do the job.

mydauphin

03-12-2009, 09:11 AM

I have a pertual motion machine to attach to prop, it generates electricity, sends it via inverter, heats water for showers and then drive prop to go forward... NOT....

Newton 25 law of Motion, The more you mess with energy/motion- the more you lose by friction, heat and other losses...

kb1one

03-20-2009, 11:58 PM

Truck alternators can be had up to 12VDC/300 amp. Any Freightliner dealer will do. I prefer the Leech-Neville over the Delco, as the cooling fins are more efficient, but either will work. Leeches have to reach a certain minimum rpm (on as truck engine) before they start putting out, t6hen will put out constant even at an idle. You just have to tap the trottle after initial start up. That's just in my 12 years of OTR use. Make it turn with whatever power plant you desire. Run two on the same belt? A pair of at a lower amp rating might give you better overall service in the long run. Charge your batteries in two seperate smaller banks, instead of one big one. Then, when you experience that inevitable electrical system breakdown, you still have half of your full power reserve at your disposal. It's just truck experience. But, for what it's worth, I never lacked power for my accesories -- way too much heavy HAM radio gear, and enough halogen load lights to light up Japan from a field in Kansas.

Landlubber

03-21-2009, 03:21 AM

kb1one,

yeah mate and a 500hp engine under the bonnet producing the power too, evan at idle....she is still putting out enormous power compared to a little motor.

300 amps at 12VDC is 3600 watts, 5 hp without any losses......you just did not feel the engine grunting to power the alternators.

kb1one

03-21-2009, 07:34 AM

landlubber -- you are right there. I did not feel it. I feel it now though. I feel it every day, even at idle. In fact, I feel it right now, and I haven't even had a cup of coffee yet. I was only suggesting a possible powerhead, readily available. I still have one on the truck (which has gone nowhere for years now), and two spares in my closet.

I beleive the original question was a home built generator alternative. How to turn it over is not something I was offering. If you will excuse me, I am going to go find that cup of coffee now, and my oversized jug of ibuprofen. Might just be time to find a cortizone shot...

Godspeede to one and all.

M-Sasha

03-22-2009, 10:42 AM

I beleive the original question was a home built generator alternative.

And I believe the original question was not much more than a schoolboys dream.
The following statements have shown that very clear.

Sasha

kroberts

03-22-2009, 12:42 PM

Sorry for stepping in when the discussion already is so lively, but I have a couple questions.

First, I failed to find a complete and concise definition of the problem. The first-glance application is for a low powered series-hybrid electric with batteries. I agree that this would be expensive to the point of being prohibitive, especially when you add the phrase "high efficiency."

An internal combustion engine of automotive scale tops out at about 40% efficiency. A small 5 kw engine is going to be much, much worse. No matter how efficient your generator and (electric) motor, you have already lost a huge amount of power, and that power was lost at the initial phase of power generation. You start with the potential energy of your fuel, then multiply that energy by the efficiency at each stage. Each step takes the number coming out of the previous step as input, multiply by efficiency and you get a number out. Efficiency of a component is usually measured as peak/best efficiency at an ideal speed and is lower for most conditions. By the time you get through the engine, generator, charger, batteries (loss in charging), batteries (loss in discharging), speed controller and motor, you have a small amount left no matter what. Then you figure your prop is 70% efficient.

However, from the OP's posts I wonder if this is a secondary drive like a trolling motor? Or, perhaps a motor for a sailboat? I missed the part where he said it was the primary drive.

If this is were a drive for tight maneuvering of a larger boat, to be used for an hour or less and then stowed, then the problem becomes much simpler doesn't it?

Why not, if it's a sailboat, throw a couple solar panels in a safe spot and have a battery charging circuit maintain your batteries? Silent, fairly reliable and the only costs are start-up purchase and the replacement of the batteries every so often.

Or, if it's a power boat, charge your batteries with the engine when that is running, or a battery maintainer when possible, and then use batteries when you need to go slow?

I saw a lot of stuff about a pure solar boat, but these are renderings and I think this boat has never been built or probably even simulated.

Propeller-driven generator: Hogwash. A propeller being used in regenerative mode in aircraft is around 10% efficient or less, depending on propeller. In my understanding of thermodynamics, you will do no better with a water prop. You would need an impeller such as is used in a hydroelectric dam, which is designed to get power from the fluid to turn a shaft. At that point you get the same efficiency statistics, figure 70% for a good impeller, then you have your generator again.

Also note that you are trading drag for power. The thrust you get out of the propeller will be a tiny fraction of the drag induced by the impeller, after all the losses are taken into account.

Now consider that in order to do the best possible, you need to pull in the motor and propeller before using your regenerative system, and vice versa. I know of no boat where you could chop power and then lower a regenerative system into the water in time to get any useful energy out of it.

If you want to extract electricity from a main drive engine, then put the generator on the engine.

apex1

03-22-2009, 01:11 PM

Ken,

thank you for the effort made. But it was wasted. The guy who opened this thread is just a unmature dreamer, he messed up several threads here with unrealistic estimations, thoughts and, as said, dreams. But the worse, he did not like any advice, hint, link etc. if it did not fit his phantasy. At the end he was telling the old salts how deep the ocean.
Fortunately he noticed eventually, this was not his platform.

Regards
Richard

Jimbo1490

03-22-2009, 01:24 PM

There have been several of these discussions over the last few months, with 'youthful' posters believing that electric motor/generator sets can ALWAYS directly replace a simple engine driving a propeller and improve efficiency. We know that in some cases, this is viable but in most cases, it is not.

The simple test is to assess the losses in the transmission of the simple 'engine driving shaft' type installation. If these losses are high, then an electric transmission may be viable. If these losses are not great, then there is virtually no hope of viability.

The key thing to remember about electric vs mechanical power transmission systems is that as size increases, mechanical power transmission becomes dramatically less efficient, while the efficiency of electric transmission increases with increasing size, or at worst, does not fall.

Thus the electric transmission makes the most sense when the power requirements are very large, such as with a rail locomotive or large cruise or cargo vessel

Jimbo

mark775

03-22-2009, 02:30 PM

When you were a kid and the others had Schwinn "Sting-Rays"...or, in Germany, an accordian because everybody was doing Akkordeon-Rap...it didn't have to make sense. This person wanted it and asked for help.
Many know more than I about this stuff, and it is easy to Google an argument for one's viewpoint, so it would be foolish to weigh in at this point on efficiency, practicality, cost-effectiveness, or even design...Maybe not THIS sailboat, but a cruising sailboat is a perfect prospect for regeneration. Another circumstance that comes to mind is a river commuter, tied to the dock in a current (or anchored out) run a half hour upstream to the office, anchor in current again, and run ten minutes home. There was a guy posting about fast commuters here somewhere for which this would be ideal if his distances were less.
One more aspect that doesn't get much attention is the PR factor. It doesn't have to actually be green to garner green bonus points and maybe, just maybe, the guy IS just curious and maybe a touch naive. Shouln't he still get CONSTRUCTIVE critisism?
I've tried the crashed Prius route before. The only ones had cheap have been under water. Polka on!

apex1

03-22-2009, 04:44 PM

Shouln't he still get CONSTRUCTIVE critisism?

NO.............
He got much more than that, assistance, advice, help, and the like. But was´nt willing or able, even to improve his knowledge to a basic level, during some two weeks. He refused to read two simple articles he was pointed to, but argued if we referred to the results, given there.
Then on top he claimed to be an engineer, but did not accept some basic physics. Read his posts if you need some entertainment.
So, let him dream a stone can fly
Regards
Richard

Jimbo1490

03-22-2009, 07:22 PM

This has been another constant with these 'electric transmission' threads; The poster comes to the forum with a preconceived belief that electric transmission is universally better than conventional transmissions. When more learned people, many with engineering experience or a least good powers of reason and analysis chime in and show him it just ain't so, the poster becomes frustrated and leaves in a huff :(

So what should everybody do; lie to him and pat him on the back and say "Attaboy, go for it!"? In the end when he finds out how much it will cost, he is going to be dissuaded, unless hes has more dollars than sense. And in that case some nice marine outfitter will have sold a nice diesel genset to a fool. :D

Jimbo

apex1

03-22-2009, 07:30 PM

dammn.. we missed that.

mydauphin

03-22-2009, 09:42 PM

Stones can fly if you throw them....
Anyway, I still like discussing ideas with dreamers around here sometimes. I get even crazier ideas to think about.

Case in point.
I have an old diesel 400amp welder- wonder if this giant alternator could be used generate ac power via a large Inverter. May or may not be efficient that is the question.

Jimbo1490

03-22-2009, 11:59 PM

There are plenty of very efficient giant alternators that can be had at scrap prices that will require no more tinkering than your welder. We call them induction motors. Save the welder for welding; working welders are virtually always worth more than scrap.

Jimbo

CDK

03-23-2009, 03:31 AM

mydauphin

03-23-2009, 04:15 AM

How much horsepower would a 200 amp alternator like on my truck take to run? 20hp?

kroberts

03-23-2009, 07:31 AM

CDK,

The "old" part I can agree with, to a point. However the "big" part I have to take exception. There are very efficient large alternators and motors out there. Induction motors and other types like PMAC can be equally efficient, but you are right in that an induction motor won't make an alternator all by itself.

mydauphin,

Find out what voltage it delivers when it is welding at 200A. It will have a peak voltage when not welding, that doesn't really count. Have somebody with a voltage meter look at it and lay down a big fat bead, and see what comes out. Measure at the generator output, not at the welder output.

The power being delivered in watts is the voltage times the amperage. Figure around 80% efficient for the generator, so you divide by 0.8 and that's the power to expect to need at the shaft. You should get a bigger number than the one you calculated before taking efficiency into account.

Oh yeah, that gives you watts. 1000 W = 1 kW. 3 kW = 4 hp, or 1 hp = 750 W.

Jimbo1490

03-23-2009, 11:27 AM

That is not correct, Jimbo.
An induction motor is no alternator. It can be used to generate electricity only when connected to another source, like the power grid. To build a true alternator you have to exchange the rotor.
And they are not "very efficient". Nothing old or giant can be efficient because at the time nobody cared about it.

Connect to the power grid??? all you need is an exciter circuit to get it going! This is the 'tinkering' I was referring to. If he's driving with an engine, he'll have an alternator and battery available to make a short burst of exciter juice; that's not a problem. There are a number of ways to get this done.

I don't know where the idea came up that I was referring to "old giant" (boat anchor) type obsolete motors. Any NEMA framed motor (older 'giant' motors WILL NOT have a NEMA frame #) will be reasonably efficient as an alternator. If you find one with a rolled steel or cast aluminum case (rather than cast iron), it will be reasonably light as well.

If you go this route, select a motor with the lowest voltage and highest RPM rating you can find, eg a 230 volt 3500 rpm, to keep from running the motor (alternator) out of it's efficient envelope. The big problem with these conversions is high internal resistance (which you mitigate somewhat by selecting the lowest voltage available) and limited RPM potential (which you mitigate by selecting the nighest RPM rating available)

You might be surprised at how incredibly cheap you can buy used LATE MODEL three phase motors like this. I recently bought a 15HP motor built in the early 90's for $60. There is (was) a pair of 80's vintage 150HP motors nearby for $100 each. I have seen an entire shipment (24 motors) of NEW 5HP 3phase motors go to the scrap yard as they were 'surplus' and could not find a buyer.

But even with all the above being true, there are now very good purpose-built inductive alternators available all over the place for very reasonable prices (they're made in China, after all :D) so unless you are needing the absolute rock-bottom, el-cheapo final cost, I don't know why you would do ANY of this, including wreck a good working welder, which you could sell, the proceeds from which sale purchasing the Chinese alternator.

Jimbo

mudman

03-23-2009, 11:56 AM

I don't know much about sailboats, but I'd think that the best way to recharge the battery bank is to harness the power of the wind and use wind turbines. Throw in some solar panels too. Wouldn't you be under the power of the wind anyway?

I'd think that the genset would of better use to run appliances on such a vessel.

Heres an idea, lets use a gasoline powered air compressor to run a pnumatic air motor for the drive system. Who wants to try? Anybody? Nobody? How about a generator hooked to a heating element that runs a steam engine? I could go on, but the ideas are silly. People do things a certain way for a reason. That does not mean that we shouldn't try new things, but we need to understand the pros and cons of each idea. There is no magic engine. The belief of the 200 mpg carb is a legend. The engine that runs on water, also fantasy. Flux capacitor......not real.

A genset defeats this guys purpose. Yeah, you can build a genset, and yeah it will work. Fact is that a gas/diesel drivetrain is more efficient than a genset/inverter/battery bank/electric motor setup.

Mydauphin
Amps X Volts = Watts and 750 Watts = 1 hp
so
200 Amps X 12 Volts = 2400 Watts
and 2400 Watts / 750 Watts = 3.2 HP

I'd get 5 hp cause I think more is better.

Jimbo1490

03-23-2009, 04:55 PM

apex1

03-23-2009, 05:41 PM

If the need is to couple 4500 HP to a propeller, things start to change. If the engine is not reversible, then likely a reversing transmission will be needed. A reduction may also be in order. This will inevitably involve some very big gears turning in thick oil. The losses from a mechanical transmission like this are not insignificant. When the scale is large, then the electric option starts to make sense as you can save on work done churning viscous oil.

Jimbo

Jahh... if it was so easy. But it´s not. Even 4500hp are much much more efficient to be installed the "conventional" way, rather than Diesel / El. (talking Yacht business).
But any way we are far off topic.... our French dreamer thought about charging his battery by using the same propeller that would drive the boat. But he did not like the fact, that his lightweight Cat (2,5 ton), would not sail properly with such a prop down. I estimate that such setup would act like a small outboard in reverse gear on such a light boat, a clever idea.
Fortunately, at the end that brilliant "engineer" tought me the basic physics of sailing. Now I know that a fast, light Multihull can drag a prop Genny much easier than a heavy displacement yacht. I´m so happy to know that...
Just read the rest of his crap, you´ll understand.http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/hybrid/diesel-electric-propulsion-sailboats-9310-16.html
and some other threads

Regards
Richard

M-Sasha

03-28-2009, 08:46 PM

kistinie

04-01-2009, 12:30 PM

I went through almost all the posts of the thread starter Kistinie and must say, that moron flushed you pretty nice with his idiotic ideas. I am shure he went back to his tent in the pampa with a sardonic grin.

Lost :-) !
The idiot was sailing in England on a nice race sailing boat, having fun in pubs with friends and doing business about electric motion for boat.
Cheers !

And about 3 or 4 Kw DC light geny, what's up ?

M-Sasha

04-01-2009, 04:08 PM

Lost :-) !
having fun in pubs
Cheers !

I buy that!:D

Hägar

04-01-2009, 05:09 PM

I buy that!:D

Touche...........................

Hä, hä
Hägar

kistinie

04-01-2009, 08:07 PM

Take care !
It is just like drugs...You start with a beer, finish in a carbon racer with solar panels, windmill and lithium batteries :)

kistinie

04-18-2009, 12:36 PM

Does anyone knows if a 400cc 7 Kw monocylinder diesel (1GM10 yanmar by exemple) can run without the flywheel, so with just the generator/motor connected to the crank ?

Minimum rpm can be 1500/1800 Rpm as the use is generator.
A good damper pulley can be added on the crankshaft to clear vibrations.

The idea behing this is to save 15 Kg...

Of course you will tell me how do you start it ?

So here is the second question :

Can an 5 Kw electric BLDC motor with the controler, without reduction, directly connected to the crank can start a diesel ?

The idea behind is to get a light and inexpensive generator...

marshmat

04-18-2009, 04:24 PM

Without the rotational inertia of the flywheel, a single-cylinder diesel will not run very well, if at all. The connected equipment would have to be heavy enough, with enough rotational inertia, to compensate for the loss of the flywheel. I don't really see much of a point to this line of reasoning- if saving 15 kg is that critical, forget about diesel and find a ten-horse Honda gas engine.
May I ask what, exactly, is a 5 kW BLDC motor doing connected to the crank of such an engine? That's an awfully expensive motor and controller, to do a job that could be done just as well and at much lower cost by a couple of big alternators.

masalai

04-18-2009, 06:46 PM

kistinie, a German? product that I hope to use - try googling "Torqeedo" there is 2 models that may suit you at 2000w and 4000w peak draw to deliver 6 to 9.9 hp equivalent hp - talk is that will soon be able to regen and when not needed just tilt up as one would for an outboard... Australian website http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Torqeedo_Australia/Products_files/CruiseRemote_4kW_1pager_US-letter_fin.pdf will get you the product in pdf - it has the German head office at the very bottom...

If you are determined to use a small gas engined genset there is a honda based one http://www.olbis.com.au/ap_template/subcat_generators.asp or in diesel http://www.onsitepower.com.au/products/marine/dc100m.htm sorry no European websites but I am sure you could find a local source. The Kubota has a good reputation as does the honda and parts are everywhere...

Fanie

04-18-2009, 09:11 PM

Sjeees... 6 pages and you guys haven't figured out an efficient genny.
Can an 5 Kw electric BLDC motor with the controler, without reduction, directly connected to the crank can start a diesel ?
How big is a diesel ? On some cars they are integrating the starter motor to double as an alternator, however, this is not the thing anyone can just bolt on to the motor and you sail off into the sunset. It is specially and carefully designed to do that and is only a recent development.

A 5kW BLDC motor is a big mawer and as Matt said friggin expensive. A starter is designed to produce high torque for a short time. An alternator is designed to only generate power, all the time. A motor does generate some power, but the energy required to use it as a generator makes it unefficient.

There is a reason the starter doesn't double as a generator. Usually if the motor has high torque characteristics it generates less power. If it generates more power the torque may be up to...

He he.. if you don't believe me swap the starter and the alternator in your car :D

There is no real efficient way of generating power or energy that is commercially available...

masalai

04-19-2009, 01:27 AM

OK fanie I did not see the part where a starter-motor was used as the DC generator, but some maring electric motors have regen capabilities when the screw is put into the flow whilst the boat is under sail-power - "re-epower" and I think "FischerPanda" & "PolarPower" as well as "AfricanCats", have that option in their pulse-mode electric drive motors.

I think the lady was after a small cheap petrol/gas air cooled wet exhaust DC genset up to 4000w at 48v to charge batteries on her lightweight small trimaran.

I also am looking for same but for me liquid (seawater) cooled diesel and preferably using the FischerPanda or PolarPower alternator 12 or 16 poles brushless direct connect "replacing" the flywheel (as is done by PolarPower & a 2 cyl volvo engine now) on a 902cc Kubota 3 cyl diesel for 8KW peak at 48 V DC nominal to charge spiral wound AGM style batteries, for house and primary propulsion (2 x Torqeedo cruise 4000W units).... Otherwise I will have to settle for the less efficient 24v truck alternators set in series to give 48V and off a v or flat grooved belt system (a pair of smaller engines with 2 x 24V 166 - 200A alternators? can that be done? )

kistinie

04-19-2009, 03:48 AM

i was thinking of diesel as i already own 2, 1GM10 yanmar in good working condition

Reason of BLDC+controller is to have regulation of current and the starter function. This combination will give a true "inverter generator" for very low additional cost

Looking closer to my diesel, without flywheel, unnecessary bits... and flywheel carter ... the 1GM10 equipped in running order goes gown to 55 Kg

Of course i agree, an electric start Honda motor is a great choice with just 28Kg.
this kind of very light diesel could be a solution too
http://secure.genquip.com.au/specsheets/pdf/186E.pdf

Torqueedo is fine, but quite expensive and is using high speed motor that brings me a few interrogations about longevity and also i really think a CPP is compulsory for regenerating on boats like mine going most of the time over 12 Knts.
it seems impossible to do regeneration and propulsion with the same pitch if your ship sails 2 to 3 times faster than it motors.

48v alternator exists, no need to use two 24v :
http://www.electrodyne.com/models.html
others can be found from Leroy sonner

http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/generators/2-3,5kw_propane.htm
with this
http://www.polarpowerinc.com/products/heat_exchanger/heat_exchanger.htm
Perfect !
Maybe not on propane as my ship configuration is too dangerous to stock propane

Exactly what i was looking for...
to be perfect i would like a fuel injection instead of a carburettor.

Just need to find a little more $$ €€ but total price could be under 4000$
Many thanks Masalai !

masalai

04-19-2009, 05:53 AM

Do you have more information on the torqeedo r4 or r2 series like detail on the drive units and any other specifications beyond the pdf link? I have seen the r2 (very light and appropriate for my boat design - which has a maximum design weight of 4800kg at 11.9m x 6.2m cat)

On a diesel you MUST have a flywheel - preferable to the weight of the original manufacture or more as Marshmat suggested and Fanies advice (stater-motor / generator are NOT congruent in one unit. - lighter weight is achieved with each part doing its designed function separately...

Can you weld (or do a training course, which has as a component at a "skills development college" to make something useful - and make your wet exhaust (what is shown is an exhaust gas heat exchanger - slightly different function) but both can be made with expert tuition in a training session....

Polar Power has nice stuff, but their website is very-much out of date as the Lombardini diesels and lots of other stuff is not available???????? Wake up America...

Be weary of the high speed diesels single cylinder as they are basically 12month throw-away - shake themselves apart and very noisy (I do not know the ones in your link) - but the ones we used in PNG, were from China, cheap and justified on basis of low cost during exploration for minerals, then sell/dispose...

Thank you for the electrodyne link for alternators - I don't know if they are carried by any distributors/OEM's in Australia????

kistinie

04-19-2009, 06:53 AM

A diesel CAN be started by a generator just the way i imagined

http://www.steyr-motors.com/products/pdf/hybrid.pdf

Bad news if flywheel is compulsory on diesel...it is not going in the weight reduction direction i was looking for

On petrol race engines flywheel it is optional !
i run TR3 2.4Liter engine (Massey Ferguson Tractor engine from Standard) with a 4 or 6 Kg (done long ago not shure) aluminium flywheel...

And by the way, a motorcycle high performance 125 to 250cc scooter engine redlined 5/6000 Rpm, used at 4500rpm (that should be max torque) could be a smart solution to improve Watt/weight ratio of a generator
Runs with fuel injection, weight nothing, part available worldwide
With good synthetic oils, high speed engines last for long.

I weld TIG/MIG so i could make my own exhaust.
i think it also could be done just by machining titanium tubes for a very moderate price
Titanium can be cut, drilled, and milled with SS316 tools and speeds. No change, just the tubes to pay 45€/Kg for grade 2 (density is 4) so metal will cost 5 times more and if no welding is possible labour will be the same.

About torqueedo, i will have a look but i recall the best i found was on a Belgium site giving more info.
you can write directly as they also reply to questions very kindly

For a 5 tons cat, with low windage, two 5Kw engines should be ok, but i underline that i am now certain that looking for a good CPP is the very best investment for an electric propulsion/regen on a fast cat or tri

About Polarpower site is last revised in 2005 just like price list...Are they out of business ?

masalai

04-19-2009, 09:19 AM

Neither have responded to emails yet (sent a week ago)... Australia is too hard/far away?

kistinie

04-19-2009, 10:05 AM

Rather too far ...from reason and mankind

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

Short term behaviour, fast money big profits only, for friends mainly.
The 15% you give to fund hedges will not go in research and development ...what we exactly do here.
No time, no money to loose with guys like you and me.
Futur ? They do not care, they will serve us the same soup, the same GM 3 tons truck till 2020 if possible

We all have the same problem as long as we deal with one off project and new behaviour

Even a builders like Tournier
http://www.tourniermarine.com/
Do not get answer when they ask info for their 70' hybrid project...

Come back to torqueedo with a 500 units boat project, they will be your best friend.

To be honest, i am fed up with this general attitude so i now avoid manufacturers too tired to answer questions and start to think about manufacturing my own products :-)

Fanie

04-19-2009, 12:06 PM

If you buy a gen set you have to decide what it is that you buy.

Most gen sets output 230V AC, which is ok if you run mains things. On a boat if it is 24V then it would be better to get a 24V gen set.

4000W at 230VAC = 17Amp
4000W at 24VDC = 166Amp
4000W at 12VDC = 330Amp

Quite a bit of difference between their current capabilities. If you would be happy with the extra weight of a transformer, go for the 230VAC gen set, you can have 230VAC, 24VAC and 12VAC. You will have to get a rectifier and some smoothing to make the low voltages usable.

steele m.a.

04-19-2009, 12:30 PM

Hydraulic powered alternators are probably what you need . They are either 12V 24V , or , in your case 48V DC , but they are specialty sealed units .
They are powered by , oddly enough , a propellor at the end of a line ,
which is left trailing behind the boat . They can cost upwards of $2,300.00
because they are above deck - in the elements . An alternator on an engine
needs a certain RPM to generate electricity . Maybe 1,200 -1,400 RPM .
It needs a constant application of this . If you stop rotating it , or
it slows below charging RPM , it doesn't produce any charge at all .
Unlike a fixed magnet generator , an alternator uses field EMF interaction
to generate charge . The field charge (from battery) must be there , and
the RPM must be there . A rare earth (magnetic) generator doesn't need
a charge present to generate , and also doesn't need high RPM's like an
alternator does . A fixed magnet generator needs lower RPM , and will
charge a system that is completely depleated . It sounds as though this may
be what you need . I'm assuming that you're trying to avoid situations
where your radios and lights no longer work because your battery is depleated
from long applied loads .
markalfredsteele@yahoo.ca

kistinie

04-19-2009, 12:47 PM

:!:
No i can't accept a transformer or any other heavy solution
i am rather in a kind of spirit to cut my tooth brush's handle ...

i already have a trailing generator
Great for safety, but maladapted for long term (sharks, sae weeds, plastics bags...)

Rpm just changes frequency, and as i produce DC current...no problemo

Polar power is a perfect exemple of what i am looking for

apex1

04-19-2009, 12:56 PM

steele m.a.

04-19-2009, 02:08 PM

[QUOTE=kistinie;268973]:!:
No i can't accept a transformer or any other heavy solution

What you need is light power generation . The diesel one cylinder
idea is an option , but diesels do require a massive flywheel .
For charging group 32 truck batteries , we use an 80 amp Hitachi .
These are off-the-shelf stock . The 80 amp Hitachi puts out the
amperage required . Group 32 truck batteries are enormous . They
are big and heavy , and hold enough power to start a Hino diesel .
Of course , sealed gel batteries are much smaller and lighter that
conventional lead/acids , and , for shorter periods , match their
output . These are $300.00 alternators . A 24V system requires
either 2 12V gels , or one 24V . Aviation batteries are available
which are 24V DC . They aren't small , and they weigh about 30
pounds each . These are specialty batteries , and pack a punch .
If you run a trailing generator and it isn't giving you the charge
power you need , then you need a power source on board .
You've probably priced wind powered gensets - $2,300.00
I would suggest a small (2 stroke) and alternator .
As you know - small package 2 strokes do produce power .
Something like a chainsaw engine gives you enough power to turn a heavily
loaded alternator , the problem is , they are extremely loud .

kistinie

04-19-2009, 02:49 PM

Aviation batteries....;) Yes, it was the plan !
Windmill of course but if i can avoid it, i would prefer, reefing line and windmill are not good friends

True a 2 stroke engine is the lightest choice and i do not avoid this option.

Motorbike engine, fuel injected is my best choice for the moment to run an alternator.

Noise is not difficult to control on a light high rpm motor, high frequencies have less energy than Low F.

kistinie

04-19-2009, 06:45 PM

Matt, Masalai, Fanie: your valuable contribution to this thread is just a waste of time. This guy will never comprehend that his ideas are just phantasy. Nor does he accept your input if the result is´nt as he likes it to be.

and: "machining titanium tubes for a very moderate price"
or: "i underline that i am now certain that looking for a good CPP is the very best investment for an electric propulsion/regen"
or: "BLDC+controller is to have regulation of current and the starter function. This combination will give a true "inverter generator" for very low additional cost"

show very clear, this bloke asks for high tech at bargain prices and he will not accept technical restrictions or contradictions. He will continue to ask his idiotic questions as long as one answers.

He´s replacing a reliable, cheap, low weight Diesel with a electric propulsion and CPP system to save weight and cost (installation and operational). And if thats not possible (as many of us told him in the past 6 weeks), well he opens another discussion `cos he likes to make it possible.
He is a proven moron thats all, do´nt waste your precious time.

Regards
Richard

Very interesting.
Your topic is full of ideas, facts, numbers and demonstrations !
LOL with you ! You are wonderful !

Just like here on post 562 : http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/new-propulsion-sytems-ships-9630-38.html#post265498

To be total fair, the only places where i think diesel engine is an optimal choice is in hot countries running only organic oils. Only case.
Safety of diesel simplicity running without electricity is lost as diesel are now assisted by electricity.

Gasoil, minéral oils, in general, are huge poison to the sea, at wild scale.

To keep a diesel inside my boat i would need to spend at least 6 month a year in a hot country and only use veg oils, this is an option, and not a bad one.
You push me to the sun, fun and holidays...Thanks a lot.
Bio diesel under the sun, why not ?
With a gaz injector for cold and hot countries...Good association.

Your are right about another thing, i am bargain price as i share my ideas for free, refuse to patent my ideas, only use Soleau to protect my right to exploit them, but maybe this kind of "copyleft" world is new to you.
I also try to work with local company even if labour cost is higher and try not to exploit underpaid, unprotected workers, in a non democratic country to make my boat. Temptation is great, i know. :D

Alternators and starter motor MUST be one huge diameter single brushless motor being also the flywheel.
Co-generation of, a hot shower, cold for food, air pressure, more electricity, can be taken from heat produced by generator ;-)
Just look at this
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/thermoacoustic-applications-5kw-kg-26571.html

Such hybrid solution is far more simpler than the actual with belts everywhere !!!
But i am certain that you do not go to space with anything else than an hybrid flywheel as described

How is it possible to a simpler, multi-fuel and lighter product; to be more expensive ??????
I do not understand the technical reasons
Now if i manufacture alternators, stater motors, clim. compressors by example, my opinion may differ for reason i understand and temptation will be great to kill the new stranger in town, but answer is not killing futur...else you will wake up the old dark punk side

Cheers !

Fanie

04-19-2009, 06:55 PM

Hi Apex,

Doesn't matter, maybe someone else may benefit...

apex1

04-19-2009, 07:23 PM

Hi Apex,

Doesn't matter, maybe someone else may benefit...

You´re right mate!
Regards
Richard

kistinie

04-20-2009, 06:10 AM

Does anyone knows a light, high speed rev, 3 to 5 Kw DC 48V generator based on a motorcycle engine, like the one Polar Power does but running fuel injection ?
I hope there is one, else i will have to make it :eek:
This one is 97 Lbs for 68 amps / 56V but is carburettor/diffuser fed for propane and fuel, so less efficient than an injected and much more prone to fuel leak and smell.
perfect to be run on propane or equiv. Can be a very valid option.

Fanie

04-20-2009, 06:40 AM

Kistinie, you want a low as possible reving motor for fuel economy and diesel also for economy and safety reasons.

If the generator doubles in diameter to maintain speed of the magnets past the coils you can halve the rpm. The larger diameter could also be part of the flywheel to make for smoother running.

Consider a frequency feedback to the throttle so that the revs adjust to maintain the output frequency which should be 50Hz. Having a decent digital volt, amp and frequency meter indication on it is also a bonus. LED is usually more robust than LCD.

masalai

04-20-2009, 06:55 AM

Fanie - she is after DC 48 v, - so 50hz is not part of the scene, and

Kistinie, I understand some manufacturers may advertise as being rated at PEAK which means very brief periods of overload.... 70% or less may be your continuous load...

kistinie

04-20-2009, 07:01 AM

Kistinie, you want a low as possible revering motor for fuel economy and diesel also for economy and safety reasons.

Low rev tend to economy, but doesn't mean necessary...economy !
Look at the very last dream cars like the 911 fuel consumption, you will be surprised.
Lean fuel mixture burning and laminar air flow is economy
Loss due to high speed movements is secondary
For safety, risk in fact lower as these motors are made to run betweens ...legs., i hope !

Look at this head from 125 cc scooter rev 6000rpm and still very efficient when running with fuel injection

Diesel not in its actual standard form, much too heavy and to much pollution when leaking, but some are simple, start and run without electricity.
I would have liked to use a diesel but the heavy cast iron flywheel needs to be replaced with light large hybrid one to gain weight, (around 40 Lbs as starter motor, alternator and carters, get out), and Transmit+product electric energy.
will be ideal for co regeneration using heat produced, but sadly these products seems to be for military use... only ?
It is time to stop using starter motor and alternator separately, a single big diameter BLDC motor does it perfectly. The product should be available with controller before Q3, 2130.

On petrol engines, bike or scooter based, Life expectancy at 4/5000 rpm can be at least as 1500 hrs and easily +3000 if respected when cold, timing/ mixture correct and air filter able to clear 99,9% of the dust !
Rebuilt can be less expensive as bearings, valve guides, chain or belt, piston ring and maybe piston liner can be enough to start a new 1500 hrs cycle and price of these parts lower because of wide diffusion

If the generator doubles in diameter to maintain speed of the magnets past the coils you can halve the rpm. The larger diameter could also be part of the flywheel to make for smoother running.
Number of poles counts, not only diameter, but it is true that effect of increasing diameter if fully successful because they rely on V² energy storage, which is quite unbeatable. Just take care to wind effect that will occur...

Consider a frequency feedback to the throttle so that the revs adjust to maintain the output frequency which should be 50Hz. Having a decent digital volt, amp and frequency meter indication on it is also a bonus. LED is usually more robust than LCD.
My frequency is 0Hz !!!!
This is DC current ! Frequency is not my business but the controller job, that can play from 0 to 400 Hz, so no worry.
Just 2 positions for throttle
Iddle when cold
Full when charging, over rev protection is done by the lightning that is PIC based
if diesel, one throttle position under 1200, high torque can be given by gas.
if you have time and money you can improve reliability and efficiency, it will get lighter

LED or LCD, no matter, i use "can bus" if € available, else and for safety antique 2" mechanical/capillary dial just like on 1960 cars and before

On a petrol engine peak is not a problem as power and Rpm can move up and down very easily playing on camshaft timing or inlet/exhaust length, by example.
you can access most of combustion parameters.
And as a generator is connected to the engine...you have a power dymo to monitor your changes just monitoring amps !
Cool !

mudman

04-28-2009, 02:16 PM

Lean fuel mixture burning and laminar air flow is economy
I suppose that this is true, but the less fuel/air mix that you have, the less power that you have also.

Diesel not in its actual standard form, much too heavy and to much pollution when leaking, but some are simple, start and run without electricity.
What are you talking about. ANY engine, cooling system, battery, or toilet for that matter will have polution concerns when it is leaking. A properly maintained diesel will run clean. Nature puts more polution into the sea then we do.

I still don't understand how any engine runs without a flywheel. The flywheel is for momentum and that is what gives an engine its power and smoothness. The larger the engine, the larger the flywheel. Been that way for a long long time.

Fact is that you can hook up any small engine to any small automotive alternator and get DC current that you so desperatly need. Just do it. I'd prefer diesel, less flamable. How about this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-hp-Diesel-Engine-Electric-Start-plus-Recoil-Start_W0QQitemZ250395074713QQihZ015QQcategoryZ79670QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

How about a pull start. Now you don't have that heavy old starter. Put a hitachi alternator on there. No matter what you do, you are defeating your purpose of going green on this boat. Eventually you will need to pull into port and recharge the batteries, or refuel you generator. Both of which require fossil fuels to produce electricity.

When those batteries loose their life, and they eventually will, you will be polluting the enviornment when you throw them away. Much more so then this earth destroying diesel engine. Lead, Acid, non biodegradable plastic, not to mention the coal required to charge them on shore, and the diesel or gasoline to charge them offshore.

mydauphin

04-28-2009, 03:49 PM

Can someone summarize all this into like 3 paragraphs... This thread is so long that by the time I get here- I forgot what it was about...

apex1

04-28-2009, 04:46 PM

About a dream, a unmature dream............nothing to worry about.

mudman

04-28-2009, 05:57 PM

Let see if I can sum it up.

Kistine: I want to recharge batteries on my boat. How do I do that?

Everybody: Get a generator, there are many options available that will suit your application. Prices are not very expensive and will work fine to recharge your batteries. Solar or wind power may also work, but a generator would be most efficient.

Kistine: I don't want something easy. What if I fly a kite to the sun and the suns power will travel down the string to my boat. It would be cool.

Everybody: Kistine, you should maybe opt for a small outboard, or a small generator. Diesel is safer than gasoline. Etc. Etc.

Kistine: I'm not listining La La La La La. Lets remove flywheels from engines, add a water exhaust, get rid of a starter and make it a starter/generator, plus pull a prop through the water to make more electricity. Yeah!!!! Oh by the way, I want to do it for really cheap.

Everybody: Ummmmmmmm, are you drunk?

mgriffin

04-28-2009, 09:27 PM

apex1

04-29-2009, 09:32 AM

That was the comment of a 13 years old dreamer!
But one who is listening to professional advice, and learning if told to go a different way. For that reason his question is not stupid häh?

Tug

04-29-2009, 01:32 PM

Over the winter a friend of mine coupled a small 3.5 hp 4 stroke lawn mower engine to a 75 amp car alternator...
The idea was to have a remote battery charger...
He said it worked well....
He also stated that he had to max out the rpm of the engine(3600 rpm) just to get the charging started...
Once it started charging the rpm could be dropped down to approx. 1200 rpm without any loss in charging amps..
Cheers
Tug

mgriffin

05-01-2009, 12:01 PM

kistinie

05-01-2009, 12:35 PM

Taking a flywheel off an engine that has a flywheel will reduce efficiency. To add to that, heavy flywheel engines that have low rpm are more efficient than high rpm little flywheel engines. How many rep. points does kistine have?

This is the legendary question of the kilo made of lead or plums.
Here it it the moment of inertia of steal versus aluminium.
Read the formula and see what it gives.

rpm is one Exp ² parameter
Inertia moment obtained by a light large flywheel, such a flywheel can be the electric motor.
A clutch between EM and ICE, a CPP driven constantly to the electric motor, gives you a light simple group, propulsion and generation, full hybrid. All in one simple. Transmission can be semi flexible as demonstrated by Rick.
And all this is public domain, free from use.

Please note that mass is linear
Diameter is exp ²

Coming back to motors, your next one could be on hydrogen

http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

Cheers

mgriffin

05-01-2009, 05:10 PM

Yes I am sure it will be. (snicker*) You know, kistinie, I don't give a shot about hydrogen, or any of that crap. I am sure you are having the time of your life looking forward to driving a hydrogen bomb car or whatever.

mgriffin

05-01-2009, 05:18 PM

Simple Simon met a pieman going to the fair;
Said Simple Simon to the pieman "Let me taste your ware"
Said the pieman to Simple Simon "Show me first your penny"
Said Simple Simon to the pieman "Sir, I have not any!"

Simple Simon went a-fishing for to catch a whale;
All the water he had got was in his mother's pail.
Simple Simon went to look if plums grew on a thistle;
He pricked his fingers very much which made poor Simon whistle.
He went for water in a sieve but soon it all fell through;
And now poor Simple Simon bids you all "Adieu"

Simple Simon poem

mgriffin

05-01-2009, 05:19 PM

What do ya know? simple simon SPEAKS french...so he must be FRENCH!!!!

apex1

05-01-2009, 05:33 PM

I was shocked when I saw that kistine has only 13 rep. points and he joined in 2007....Not to mention how many posts he has made...*I have more rep points than him. I have 23, but I had 19 before my other profile got screwed up.
(*I am 13 years old)

Ahh, you must not be shocked Mike. Look, if you ask some nonsense in your thread and the reply is not as you like it to be, you learn and improve your knowledge and ask better questions next time. That way the professionals here stay with you until there is a proper solution found for your problem. And they honour your patience and cooperative manner, so, your reputation grows.
Other chaps do´nt like to learn, or to follow professional advice, they prefer to bother people with their unmature nonsense, or try to cheat 13 years old members with a sort of knowledge they did not have at the first post (the question was not to replace a flywheel, as he now likes to let you know, it was to remove it).
So all have got what they deserve and you have naturally more, `cos you are not Simple Simon!

Regards
Richard

and do´nt offend nationalities please.

kistinie

05-02-2009, 02:41 AM

Gentleman's

Poesy is a wonder of life, but your debate should stay on a technical _ boat design level for the benefit of all

Thanks !

mydauphin

05-02-2009, 07:39 AM

kistinie

05-02-2009, 07:44 AM

this is mppt regulation you are talking about i think, also called "inverter tech' when AC ouput
This is also a BLDC motor controller" in regen mode

Of course it works great :-))
more electricity means more Hydrogen !
And think that electricity production can be full solar on an estate or truck vehicle.

apex1

05-02-2009, 08:27 AM

but your debate should stay on a technical _ boat design level for the benefit of all
!

Yours should start to come to such level, after some hundred posts of nonsense. Thanks.

kistinie

05-02-2009, 08:38 AM

Please give us the list of nonsenses i may have said and i will try to better explain it

mydauphin

05-02-2009, 08:39 AM

If one gets to like a million posts do we win anything???

kistinie

05-02-2009, 09:03 AM

No
I am afraid no millions

nero

05-02-2009, 09:27 AM

Thank you kistinie for the link to the physics website.

I will now loose several more hours of time surfing interesting stuff.

kistinie

05-02-2009, 09:57 AM

mgriffin

05-02-2009, 03:17 PM

You didn't get the reason I posted that simple simon poem, did you kistinie?

CDK

05-02-2009, 03:24 PM

Something that might actually fit in this thread.

the alternator in my truck (200amp) went bad. After replacing I kept core to experiment. I realize that voltage regulator went bad. I bypass it and this thing is know putting all kinds of power, upwards of 30 volts and I dont know how much amperage. It seems higher voltage is feeding Alternator field and making even more power. If I hook it up to charge regulator like the kind OUTBACK uses for solar panels I can convert those high voltage back 12volt without losing to much efficiency. Anyone have any comments on this idea. Ultimately , it want to run this via windpower in my farm...

Congratulations, you have discovered the function of a regulator. Without your bypass it supplies just enough energy to the rotor to obtain the rated output in a 12 volts system. If the output voltage rises above a certain threshold (around 14 volts), the output is reduced to nearly zero.

With the regulator terminals bridged you get an open voltage over 30 volts and maximum current the alternator can handle. Used like that in a 12 volts system, the battery will start boiling until it is dry, then the system voltage will rise so all connected devices will burn out. Unless of course the load it high enough to keep the voltage within boundaries, in which case the alternator will eventually commit suicide because it is not designed for the thermal load.

mgriffin

05-02-2009, 03:26 PM

did you get the reason I posted the simple simon poem?

apex1

05-02-2009, 06:55 PM

And this is what Kistinie wanted instead of a Diesel propulsion.
Or, lets say, what he should have wanted, instead of nonsense.
http://www.ozmarine.se/OZecoDrive/Eng/IndexOZecoDriveEng.html

Jimbo1490

05-02-2009, 11:35 PM

Your welcome, i am glad you got interesting thing to read searching the web !

May like this too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWhHCGlv9r8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfj1O45qZ5U&feature=related

Days of corrupted oils are numbered

You know a thread has "jumped the shark" when the water powered car comes out

:D :D

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/genepax-water-powered-car-japan-debunking.php

kistinie

05-03-2009, 12:56 AM

Just look at facts
the more we study water the more power we get from it. No legend or urban myth.

Level one : Direct water injection to ICE
Result : More power when added to inlet(increase power, limit detonation) and outlet (cools & accelerate)gas

Level 2 : Cracking water in H² and O² and adding to inlet of ICE engine
Result ; Much more torque and power when added to inlet, cleaner combustion

Level 3 : Full Water engine using only H², O², reacting on metals and other physical effects to understand better.

Tesla free energy, Bedini motor, joe cell and other experimentations are unexplained.
Just like we can't explain black holes, dark energy...the list is long.

For propulsion, water seems to have more potential, at least used with metals, just like for aluminium-gallium producing H²
So here it is a water/metalic fed car :-)

Of course it is not water alone ! For the moment ;-)

But metals in water or bacteria in water...no more oil

So once again facts show that in the futur
Oil will remain great to product carbon fibre, plastics, ... and aramide, but not to burn

Jimbo1490

05-03-2009, 01:14 AM

Level one : Direct water injection to ICE
Result : More power when added to inlet and out let

Level 2 : Cracking water in H² and O² and adding to inlet of ICE engine
Result ; Much more power when added to inlet

Level 3 : Full Water engine using only H², O² and other physical effects to understand better.

Oil is great to product carbon fibre and aramide
For propulsion, water seems to have more potential

Level 1

Water injection is useful as a replacement for 'power enrichment', which normally uses the fuel as an evaporative coolant to reduce combustion temps. Since the engine is burning rich of stoichiometric under such enrichment, this extra fuel will not be burned, but act only as a coolant. In this regard, water injection can reduce fuel consumption under some circumstances. The need for power enrichment has been greatly reduced by the advent of EFI and the intake manifold designs that EFI allows. Either way, there is no magic here.

Level 2

The cracking of H20 always requires more energy than can be recovered in subsequent combustion. This includes catalytic metal reactors since the reactor catalyst material will become quickly depleted and must be replaced. The manufacturing of these represents the unrecoverable energy loss in this case. Again, there is no magic here. If you could mine the catalyst material from the ground rather than manufacture it, then maybe there's some sleight of hand. Still no magic, but at least a nice illusion of magic.:D

Adding H2 to the air stream of an ICE that burns another primary fuel is simply way to 'fool' an EFI setup into running the engine lean. Note this only works with an EFI equipped engine, meaning that it's not a primary effect. This is certainly not magic.

Level 3

But water does not burn. In fact, I'm told they often use the stuff to extinguish fires.:P Cracking water is energy net negative, as I've explained. At best, hydrogen can become but an energy storage media, like a battery, storing energy that is invested in it during cracking. Definitely not magical.

Jimbo

kistinie

05-03-2009, 02:21 AM

This is not a magician forum ;) of course nothing magic

Water injection give a lot of improvements much more easily than by other complicated devices.

Engine can get simpler with increase efficiency when water injected

When craking energy to get H² and O² is coming from solar panels, bacterias, metals...some oil is saved for a better use.

But this is already the past

New solution will rely on new physical effect we do not understand for the moment.
And when 100.000 individuals search, answer will be found kicker...thank's to the basic statistics laws !

This is the force of internet
Global thinking
Individual actions

And such research organisation is very powerful to break lobby and corruption
Learn, study, test and give feed back to the others.

The JP MORGAN collapse is a destiny reverse that may re-open our eyes on Tesla 's work ?

masalai

05-03-2009, 02:32 AM

kistinie, wishful thinking will not fix anything - look at the impact of the American (USA) fiscal collapse on the global economy, No amount of wishing will resolve or fix that - and it seems your desires follow along on a similar vein.... One cannot get blood from a stone - except maybe, from stromatalites which grow in just two parts of the world...

If you listen to nothing else this weekend - hear this - and figure out how to fend for yourself... http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html - go to "3rd Hour with Jim & John - - Select an Audio Format - Part 1" and select the audio file type you prefer (all are the same content in audio files and in American English)...

mydauphin

05-03-2009, 05:32 AM

kistinie, you must be from France.
When you go to the baker does he give you bread for free.
The wheat is cheap, it comes from solar energy.
But it has labor, he needs to support his family, his mistress.
and if he adds too much water to flour the bread is no good....
Same with engines, energy, laws of economics, physics....
Go back to school and study physics, economics, thermodynamics, friction.

apex1

05-03-2009, 05:47 AM

kistinie

05-03-2009, 06:20 AM

La parabole du boulanger...
Why not ? Nothing else more solid to explain us how what i say is junk science ?

I admit i am a curious item, but the subject is not me, subject is producing power for motion and electricity in a clever and responsible way, not a totalitarian destructive way like now with petrol.
Please let us play alone with our child games while you fill up your tank with oil and the cows will be happy.

As it doesn't work we will stop playing very soon ?
So why do you worry for this ?

marshmat

05-03-2009, 09:40 AM

You know a thread has "jumped the shark" when the water powered car comes out
Indeed, Jimbo..... but remember, a thread isn't OVER until Godwin's Law is satisfied.

kistinie

05-03-2009, 11:12 AM

All the attitude toward new systems, more efficient look like the new (1936) DVORAK layout for PC keyboards allowing more word per minute in most language, but impossible to set in because of "habitude"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard

mudman

05-04-2009, 05:19 PM

I am afraid that we can not obtain energy from unicorn horns, rainbow dust, or leprachaun farts. There is not a cheaper, nor more economicaly feasable way than petroleum.

Oil and gas is what we use. It provides millions of people with jobs. They support their families on this money, pay bills, and spend the money how they choose. In spending this money, other people obtain money, and this helps the economy. People are working and making money, and people are happy. Waiters, bartenders, bakers, zookeepers, and everybody else obtains money made in the oil and gas industry.

Oil effects steel, boat builders, vessel operators, welders, fabricators, pipe fitters, divers, pilots, engineers, etc. etc. We can go down the line where the fuel prices effect farmers, and in turn effect you. If their is not any oil, what would you like these people to do? I don't know how else to explain it, but energy and oil go hand in hand.

Don't tell me that oil and gas companies are responsible for the destruction of the economy and the ruination of the world. What are there, maybe 5 major oil companies?(and they pay more in taxes than they profit). There are hundreds of others oil companies, mainly mom and pop shops owned and operated by hard working people. I know where you stand, but I happen to support oil busniess, the millions of people that make a living from it, and the billions of people that use it.

So lets get rid of oil all together. Millions of jobs will be destroyed, and we can run this puppy on pixie dust and good feelings. Don't be childish.

So you think that oil destroys the enviornment? Do you have any idea of the regulations required to get oil from a couple miles down, send it to refinery, process it, seperate it, treat it, and then get it to the pump? I guess that you think that those hard working guys just like to dump it into the ocean. Yeah, at $65 a barrel, thats what they like to do. Accidents happen, but they are far and few.

By the way, global warming is a myth. Global warming was generated by people who want to make some money, and nothing more. It is a lie.

Bad oil companies, providing jobs for millions of people, selling energy to the world, and trying to do it in a responsible way. How dare they. We need everyone to get their energy from mermaid tails.

What were we talking about anyway? Oh yeah how to make a small generator. I don't know how to build one that runs on fairy tales.

Jimbo1490

05-04-2009, 09:10 PM

The use of oil is the latest step in our society's natural drive toward efficiency, cleanliness and sustainability, while providing for the basic needs of an increasing population. The previous steps included burning wood and then coal. Oil and natural gas are far cleaner than either of these and their use does not cause deforestation.

What do you think would happen if there were either no more oil, or oil became unaffordable? How do you think people would cook and heat their homes? Well it would most likely be by burning wood, which would lead to disastrous deforestation. If you look at any very poor but populous country, this is exactly what you see; massive environmental degredation. Take a look at Haiti or any of several war-torn African nations where the economy has collapsed. The widespread adoption of oil as our currency of energy has saved us all from a similar outcome.

Jimbo

kistinie

05-05-2009, 03:30 AM

Madagascar, Haiti...all these countries are deadly poor only because of corruption and war.

A SS working hard in a camp was doing a job.
L'abbé Pierre taking care of homeless was doing a job
A job can be a nice thing but it can also produce hell
Many oil jobs can be converted to other technologies, and i imagine it will create even more as it will bring a better money repartition through 1000's of small scale company doing alternative items for narrow markets.

Here are some example:
Small size under 20 Kw CPP ? Nothing
Low cost smart pc programmable BLDC controller ? Nothing
BLDC PM motor to replace the flywheel ? Nothing
HHO solar and wind driven kit for boats ? Nothing
H2O injection kits ? Nothing
H20 recycling kits ? Nothing

All these products mean less oil, more jobs.

So if oil business is so perfect tell me what you think of

- Going to war for it?
- Doing "trust prices" on captive markets linked to oil.
And about this last point i know perfectly what i'm saying as my father was doing this for the biggest world oil compagny and went to court in France for this. I also did that myself for electricity markets, for millions of euro and regret to have lost my soul there for too long.

This is no fairy tale.
Energy business world is extremely corrupted, and so is the use of energy we have through the inefficient product we get from the oil friendly industry.
This is a fact, not an opinion.
How do you explain that my 1960 MKI 849cc SU Carb mini with minor modifications on inlet pipes and exhaust can run 4 persons more than 60 mpg ?

When i say corrupted oil, i do not spit on oil but say the way we use it is corrupted, inefficient and only guided by short time profit for a minority
And once again i (am or was ?) part of this minority, having good time around the world with this corrupted money, so do not tell me it ain't so.

--------------

The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. Hermann Wilhelm Göring 18 april 1946

mudman

05-05-2009, 09:17 AM

I assume that you are talking about the US going to war for oil.

I have not heard of any oil company going to war. The US government taxes oil companies big time, so therefore the government has a big interest in oil. The more that they can get their hands on the more revenue they can get. Oil is taxed at the port. Oil refineries in the US buy crude from overseas. If you remember, the middle east was screwing us on the price, and at one point, they would not even sell it. This made US oil companies happy, since they thought we would be able to explore for more oil at home.

An offshore oil platform cost anywhere between 5 million and 5 billion in the US. To put the same platform in West Africa, you can multiply that price by 10. I have designed a few. Cost analysis and profitability of course play a huge part. There are thousands of known oil reserves that we have not tapped into yet because the price of oil is not high enough to profit from these fields. Maybe in the future, maybe not.

So oil companies decided to go to war? OK. How many trillions of dollars did they spend? There is enough oil in the US to supply the entire country. The government will not let oil companies explore for more oil. There are too many taxes and too much red tape. I guess that going to war is easier than filling out a few forms and waiting a few weeks for permits.
Energy business world is extremely corrupted, and so is the use of energy we have through the inefficient product we get from the oil friendly industry
We are doing very cool things with oil in order to get more out of oil fields and get more out of crude. CO2 injection, waterfloods, gas lift, sulfur recovery. Nothing is wasted. Plastics, Tires, makeup, solvents, garbage bags, crayons, candles, toothpaste, and a thousand other products are petroleum based. I think that all of these products, including gas and oil have been pretty efficient so far.
Small size under 20 Kw CPP ? Nothing
Low cost smart pc programmable BLDC controller ? Nothing
BLDC PM motor to replace the flywheel ? Nothing
HHO solar and wind driven kit for boats ? Nothing
H2O injection kits ? Nothing
H20 recycling kits ? Nothing
I don't see how a controlled pitch prop,can reduce fuel consumption. It is a prop. Low cost smart PC programable BLDC controller sounds anything but low cost. HHO solar and wind driven kits. Are you still talking about removing hydrogen from water? Water injection and recycling I think were explained to you already. So I believe that I can safely say yes, it is nothing.
How do you explain that my 1960 MKI 849cc SU Carb mini with minor modifications on inlet pipes and exhaust can run 4 persons more than 60 mpg ?
It's 849cc. I have a lawnmower with more displacement. What are you pushing there, a whopping 35 hp? My wife has a 140 hp honda that gets close to 40 mpg highway. That's stock, no mods, came from the factory like that. I've had it up to 130 mph already too.

This theory that oil companies are going to war for oil, modifying cars and engines to be less efficient, and killing people that invented things like the car that runs on water or the engine that runs on air, are all conspiracy theories.
Madagascar, Haiti...all these countries are deadly poor only because of corruption and war
No they are at war with themselves because they are poor. I'm running out of patience trying to explain economics. There is a class war. There is very little money, the people have no skills. War did not cause it. War is the direct result of it.

If you get rid of oil, you will destroy millions of peoples lives. Once these people are homeless, who will help them? Once again you are caught in a catch 22.

As far a loosing my soul, I have met hundreds af good hard working people. I've met big time and small time, and all of the time, these corrupt people give to charities and organizations, and so do I. I am constantly at fund raisers for cancer, down syndrome, autism, disabilites. The list goes on and on. Lost my soul? I help any way that that I can, and so do most of the people in the industry.

I guess that the millions of jobs created by oil and gas can be replaced by people building CCP's and flux capacitors. Get real man.

Just go build that generator that runs on dreams and let me know how that works out for you.

kistinie

05-05-2009, 10:26 AM

I assume that you are talking about the US going to war for oil.

In a way, yes but i do not look down on America as i really love this country for more than 20 years.

I have not heard of any oil company going to war.
Very funny.
What was the business of your ex president and his crew ?

The US government taxes oil companies big time, so therefore the government has a big interest in oil. The more that they can get their hands on the more revenue they can get. Oil is taxed at the port. Oil refineries in the US buy crude from overseas. If you remember, the middle east was screwing us on the price, and at one point, they would not even sell it. This made US oil companies happy, since they thought we would be able to explore for more oil at home.

An offshore oil platform cost anywhere between 5 million and 5 billion in the US. To put the same platform in West Africa, you can multiply that price by 10. I have designed a few. Cost analysis and profitability of course play a huge part. There are thousands of known oil reserves that we have not tapped into yet because the price of oil is not high enough to profit from these fields. Maybe in the future, maybe not.

So oil companies decided to go to war? OK. How many trillions of dollars did they spend? There is enough oil in the US to supply the entire country. The government will not let oil companies explore for more oil. There are too many taxes and too much red tape. I guess that going to war is easier than filling out a few forms and waiting a few weeks for permits.

Yes, war is a very good deal not only for oil as the trillions of dollar will go to friends doing munition, planes and all the rest.

I don't see how a controlled pitch prop,can reduce fuel consumption. It is a prop. Low cost smart PC programable BLDC controller sounds anything but low cost. HHO solar and wind driven kits. Are you still talking about removing hydrogen from water? Water injection and recycling I think were explained to you already. So I believe that I can safely say yes, it is nothing.

A CPP means efficiency for propulsion and regeneration. I think 20 to 30 % average increases. It is also a solution to take off reduction and rotation inverter
Actual BLDC controller 5 Kw are 500$ list price
With a wide diffusion, could be 150 to 200$. They are almost compulsory to ant hybrid system.
Water injection under any form works and is on the way for mass production, but sadly with 50 to 80 years delay.

It's 849cc. I have a lawnmower with more displacement. What are you pushing there, a whopping 35 hp? My wife has a 140 hp honda that gets close to 40 mpg highway. That's stock, no mods, came from the factory like that. I've had it up to 130 mph already too.

42 hp on the dymo at the wheels ! Please !
70 miles maximum speed and in town, for the same travel, half gas from your Honda. To me,/ this is unacceptable.

This theory that oil companies are going to war for oil, modifying cars and engines to be less efficient, and killing people that invented things like the car that runs on water or the engine that runs on air, are all conspiracy theories.

No not modifying ! Just doing nothing or the minimum!
French "fregates" retro commission scandal : 11 dead...suicide and fun accidents
In France we kill ecologist
In Russia the press

Nothing very new under the sun.

No they are at war with themselves because they are poor. I'm running out of patience trying to explain economics.

I love economics ! Try this !
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nation_ready_to_be_lied_to_about

If you get rid of oil, you will destroy millions of peoples lives. Once these people are homeless, who will help them? Once again you are caught in a catch 22.

No you do not get rid of oil, you stop burning it, at least you burn much less.
You build a light carbon boat using less oil and keep it longer. This for a smaller TOC. High quality products cost less.

As far a loosing my soul, I have met hundreds af good hard working people. I've met big time and small time, and all of the time, these corrupt people give to charities and organizations, and so do I. I am constantly at fund raisers for cancer, down syndrome, autism, disabilites. The list goes on and on. Lost my soul? I help any way that that I can, and so do most of the people in the industry.

I guess that the millions of jobs created by oil and gas can be replaced by people building CCP's and flux capacitors. Get real man.

Just go build that generator that runs on dreams and let me know how that works out for you.

Even among Nazis in camp were good hard working people. Working hard is not an equivalent of being good.
You can do disgusting things and nice things. It is not because you support a nice action that you won't be any more a drug dealer by example.

It is not an addition
-10 of shit + 11 of good = 1 good guy !!!
Very funny, but this old song is not serious.

I will do my best to make my ideas become products.
And i hope that really soon you will have no other choice than buying one !
;)

mudman

05-05-2009, 11:33 AM

Boy you are hard headed. When you find this free energy source, please let me know. Try and remember the LOWS of conservation of energy though because they will certainly kick you in the butt.

With the current technology, you will find out that you are grasping at a fantasy, as you have been told. I am sure that you can get these things to work, but you WILL be dealing with a high price tag, inefficiency, and more pollution than a small diesel. Most of this stuff is not rocket science. Simple calcs, and common sense engineering. Just build the thing since you know all about it. I'm sure that it will be much better that our barbarian ways.

Build it. Please. When you are pennyless and neeed to change those batteries, or other parts on the extremely complicated system, let me know how that worked out. Don't blow yourself up with that hydrogen either.

Like we've all said. Go buy a generator. I'm sorry, those bad old oil companies built it inefficient. Right? GW and his crew put it together themselves laughing and joking the whole time. GROW UP.

GW was president of the US when he went to war. Therefore, the US GOVERNMENT went to war, not oil companies. Do you know of any Exxon or BP Troops? Yesterday I saw a Chevron tank and a fighter jet. Anyone seen the Shell Oil aircraft carrier? Explain how oil companies start war. Or you can call it like it is and say that the demand for anything will cause war. I'll fight you if I want your lollipop bad enough.

By the way, I did not agree with everything that GW did, but I can say for certain that I liked him more that our new president. This new fella is going to destroy us all. He has lots of fairy tales just like you. Cars will run on rainbow dust and unicorn pee. And we'll all live happily ever after in the magic kingdom. What a crock.

kistinie

05-05-2009, 03:03 PM

Ok forget it !

I do not care about free energy, nothing is free, but some choice cost much more than others.

I really hope for your country that you will pass the summer without going to bankrupt as in this case we will have to pay with you.

I will follow my way as i think i have found what i was looking for, with your help and more generally the help of the most virulent enemies !

i have found the concept i was looking for
Once finished i will give some news !

Cheers and thanks for help !

mydauphin

05-05-2009, 04:31 PM

I really hope for your country that you will pass the summer without going to bankrupt as in this case we will have to pay with you.

!

I hope your country doesn't get invaded and we have to liberate your butt... Twice.... I guess you need read history too.

I think will should all ignore kistinie... Let the corrupt oil companies get him...

kistinie

05-05-2009, 04:52 PM

mydauphin

05-05-2009, 05:08 PM

You have liberated Europe with many others countries, i did not forgot it.
And we paid a lot for this.

About oil company ...They do not care about a single atom of me.
And it is symmetrical.

And about crisis it is mainly yours, you have exported to the rest of the world, so don't you think a more peaceful posture could be more adapted ?

A. You didn't pay anything for it. Not to us or Britain.
B. Oil companies like any other business are there to make a profit. They invest their and their investors money to get a return on the investment... A PROFIT. They invest billions in looking for oil, billions for drilling, and more billions to transport it. If you look at cost the from a hole in the ground to refinery of about 50 cents a gallon is actually very good. Then refining takes energy and billion in equipment. Then it has be transport to the gas stations. All this to sell it for $3 a gallon. I wish I could buy milk for $3 a gallon and all that is needed there is a cow.
C. Crisis, I have not Crisis, I owe no money to no one. Many people all over world got themselves into debt by buying junk or overpriced stuff. Now our government is being ruined by idiots that think a socialists country like France is in our future. But sooner or later they will realize that socialists countries reward dumb people, freeloader and not achievers. They don't get anywhere or achieve anything. They are bankrupt in the mind.