Roberts 345

[tazmann]

Hello All
I had mentioned on another thread that the wife and I desided to build the Roberts 345 MC steel for a retirement boat, So I orderd the plans while they were on sale. Thought I was getting printed plans and paterns but to my suprize no only CD version, So I take them to a blueprint printing out fit and get everything printed, Low and behold there is no lines drawing or table of offsets only these huge peices of paper to peice together to get the lines, sure dont seem acurate that way. So far the emails they sent back to me said that they dont print out table of offsets only plot to patterns, I did email again and ask for lines drawing and offsets we shall see what happens.
I guess the moral of the story is dont assume nothing even though its worded that it comes with this that and the other, dont make it so
Tom

[welder/fitter]

When working on Jason's boat, I asked him if he had the plans. He did, but the lines drawing & offsets were "missing", as I recall. Go figure.

[tazmann]

Ya Mike its a bit upsetting actualy. His email response was they dont have a lines drawing or offsets , that it would be time consuming and costly to re enter into computer to get offsets and lines.
I dont know that much about computer desighning but how can you desighn a boat without lines? They did ashure me that 300 boats had been built with these patterns and that they were very acurate.
I guess my expectations were to high after reading what comes with plans and patterns from his website, Sheet 2 lines drawing, keel skeg rudder ect. I figured out a work around , draw out from patterns and create table of offsets then loft.
Tom

[welder/fitter]

It's amazing, isn't it? On the BR site, they brag about how easily their kits go together, even have testimonials from some customers. Yet, on other sites, I've read posts by builders of their patterns, even those who have bought the cutting files & had the pieces cut, complain about how they don't go together well. When I bought the lodestar plans, the first thing I asked on the phone was, "now, you are including the lines drawings & offsets tables, right?"

On the bright side, if you do "work it backwards", it'll be good practice for copying another hull design, in the future... naw, it doesn't make it any brighter, forget I said that.

[tazmann]

LOL
Messed with the patterns today and turns out there not accurate eather.
The outside one for the half frames wont line up with the next one, lines are about 3/16" off. The DWL and Headboard lines not paralel on patterns.
Its going to make it tough to build a fair boat with no lines,table of offsets or accurate patterns. No scaled station frame drawings eather.
I did send them an email with photos of them, hopfully they figure somthin out. To many peices of the puzzle missing, several places on the plans refur you to see sheet 2 for details but they say it dont exist same with detail polio# and didnt get those eather.
Starten to think this ones doomed before it gets started.
I wanted to build the Roberts dinghy from aluminum and its posted several places on the site that the plans for it come with every set of plans and patterns sold. wood, fiberglass and aluminum but only got the ones for wood or fiberglass.
I would think as long as this guy has been in the buisness he would be selling complete plans and not using false advertising.

[tazmann]

Well not much help from Roberts, Story changed a bit, first the pattern bit was very accurate now its asuming the printer printed accurate.
I think I'm finished with Bruce Roberts Design, shouldnt be like this.
On the bright side I contacted Phil Hoggs "Bruce Roberts International"
and He said there plans for the 345 have a good lines drawing and table of offsets for lofting on the multi chine version but not the RC version as of yet.
Tom

[welder/fitter]

Considering that Robert's targets the amateur builder, this is a really raw deal. I can well imagine some guy buying his materials, spending much time scribing & cutting, welding up frames, only to discover what you have found. Maybe, Hoggs will sell you what you need for a decent price? Best of luck.

[daiquiri]

We have built a Roberts' Euro 1200 here from the plans supplied on CD and had none of the problems you have mentioned.
We've sent the dwg nesting files to a nearby office with a numerically-controlled plasma cutter, got the pieces back and assembled them with no problems at all. It all fitted together like Lego bricks.
I've successively made a lots of modifications to the original structure of the boat, but the original pieces were designed with more than acceptable precision. I think it depends a lot on the quality of cutting machine. If something goes wrong at the cutting stage, you'll surely have problems during the assembly/welding phase.
You can see the photos of the boat in my gallery.

[tazmann]

After getting PO'ed and emailing them That I was not a happy camper and that if they couldnt supply a full set of plans I wanted a refund.
Checked my email thismornin and I have sheet 2A and B full lines drawings with table of offset. Things are lookin brighter.
daiquiri
Glad to here it worked out without a hitch for you, In my case getting the patterns printed local, the printer was having an off day and if I would have blindly started building frames to them things would have turned out a desaster.
Tom

[rugludallur]

I would advise against using paper patterns, paper is not dimensionally stable and is subject to shrinkage/expansion because of changes in temperature and humidity.

In some cases as much as 6% shrinkage can occur, that's a large error in a big boat.

If you must have patterns printed use mylar or at least resin coated paper which is far more stable.

Jarl
http://dallur.com

[welder/fitter]

Good to hear, Tom!

daiquiri, I understand that there were challenges with the patterns/plans for the Euro 1200, when they were first brought out. In fact, I was talking to someone who is selling an unfinished project, locally, and he said that he'd had challenges & was told by "Gail"(?) from Bruce Roberts, that the new "kit" was was more accurate. He told me that he didn't want to "fork out 20 grand" at that time, but that - after he raised some hell, they sent another cd which he believes has been corrected, in terms of deficiencies. Of course, he'd already done a fair bit of the construction & has decided to sell the hull/deck rather than making the corrections. Personally, I only know what I have seen and could not suggest that the design info. was the problem, as whoever originally constructed the 345 hull I worked on, must have been drunk at the time.

rugludallur, I agree completely with what you are saying. I am sure that Tom's reasoning behind wanting lines drawings & tables of offsets was to check the accuracy of the patterns. That is certainly why I wanted them for my future lodestar build. I wouldn't trust any pattern that I didn't have drawings for. When recently building a public ferry in our local shipyards, my boss became upset with me for making templates of areas that had already been templated by a fitter on the afternoon shift. I wasn't about to tell him that I didn't have faith in the other guy's work, still, I found them to be inadequate and, because of drawings, was able to ascertain that he'd made significant errors. I wouldn't even use mylar without the info & drawings at hand to check them. Too much hard-earned money to gamble away!

[tazmann]

Here is a link to a roberts 345 under construction. Looks like the builder is doing a fine job


http://www.flickr.com/photos/bruce_roberts_345/page3/

[welder/fitter]

Yeah, the guy's doing a decent job, by the looks of things. I think that I'd want to beef up that skeg though. I understand that there were problems with some of the BR rudders snapping off/bending. I noticed that they offer a new skeg design for some of their boats, now, which look much stronger. Do they offer the new design for the 345?

[tazmann]

The saftey skeg he calls it, you have to contact him and pay for the plan seperatly. There are a couple options to beef it up a bit in the plans. I sure wouldnt trust it myself if you didnt , as deep as it is and only about 2" wide where its attached to hull.

[rugludallur]

I can't tell for sure from these pictures but if the skeg is has a rounded leading edge but flat sides would it not be susceptible to vibrations and ultimately metal fatigue?

Perhaps a boat designer with more knowledge than me could comment?

Regards

Jarl
http://dallur.com

[tazmann]

It is hard to tell in pictures,but yes there is an option for a pipe leading edge on the skeg. I wouldnt know if it would cause vibration or not.
Lookin at the pic's again he did beef it up with the 45% plates where its attached to hull and the heavier plate in the hull above skeg-rudder.
This one is the version B with extended coach house and less rake on transom. I noticed he has moved the rudder-skeg more forward than what is showed on plans, trailing edge of rudder is only a few inches from transom on drawings .
Tom

[tazmann]

Noticed this one for sale in BC
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/boa/1081542844.html
Bit modified

[welder/fitter]

Noticed this one for sale in BC
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/boa/1081542844.html
Bit modified

LMAO!
Tom,
That's the same one that Brent & I were talking about on the other thread! As you can see, Evan Shaler revamped their skeg & Brent changed it to a pilot-house.
The couple that owns it moved it to Gibsons when they lost their work area. You can see the anomalies on the stbd bow, but there are not enough shots there to give you the true impression of the other challenges. I'm sorry to see that they have had to stop, yet, tried to make them realize that it would be better to start from scratch. The extra distance that they moved it would have made for one hell of a slog from Oregon.

In fact, those are the old photos from when Stephen Wandling still owned it. Later, I built a mid-ship cradle for it, as it wasn't well-supported, just about ready to fall over. I'd sure be interested to know why they chose Gibsons as the new location.

Mike

[tazmann]

LOL
Ya Mike I had a feeling when I first looked at the photos. Skeg-rudder and pilot house looked like Brents style.
Tom

[Brent Swain]

The further aft the rudder the better. It also makes a Says rig a simple option for self steering.
Rounded leading edges on anything are far less prone to stalling. This is also the case with keels . Sharp leading edges a can cause huge amount of turbulence in rough water.
Once one boat has been built and the designer has had the opportunitiy to correct offsets, then they should be accurate enough to eliminate the need for full sized lofting on future boats.
Brent

[cvzzr]

LMAO!
Tom,
That's the same one that Brent & I were talking about on the other thread! As you can see, Evan Shaler revamped their skeg & Brent changed it to a pilot-house.

I saw this on Craigslist, and might go over for a look. Can you PM me with some more details about this hull?

Thanks!

edit -- OOPs - no Private Messages on this board it looks like. Email with more info if you like -- (ty5032 at hotmail dotta comma)

edit again -- Brent, feel free to send me any insight you have into this hull as well -- is it worth a look?

[Brent Swain]

The saftey skeg he calls it, you have to contact him and pay for the plan seperatly. There are a couple options to beef it up a bit in the plans. I sure wouldnt trust it myself if you didnt , as deep as it is and only about 2" wide where its attached to hull.


Do I read you correctly? Does Roberts charge extra for a skeg that is not designed to fall off. Has anyone asked Roberts how much offshore cruising experience he has, or how many steel boats he has built with his own hands? A close friend of his once told me "None".
Brent

[tazmann]

Do I read you correctly? Does Roberts charge extra for a skeg that is not designed to fall off. Has anyone asked Roberts how much offshore cruising experience he has, or how many steel boats he has built with his own hands? A close friend of his once told me "None".
Brent

Well if you put the 45% gussets at the top I would think its not going to fall off or take a chunk of the hull with it?
But to awnser you question yes he charges for it, The saftey skeg from what pictures I have seen you run a shoal draft keel and the bottom is extended back to the bottom of skeg, thats not on the original plans you have to email them and pay extra for the plan option.
I guess its the same for spars and rigging. I did ask on that and the rudder shape and was told to study the plans more and come back with list of questions, I responded with one more question and I wont bother you again, that was on the detail polio that the plans referd to that were not there and explained to them there was not a top view drawing or note on the rudder. They did resond to that sent me one page from polio and explained the rudder. So I wont ask them any questions again.
Tom

[welder/fitter]

cvzzr,
I spent a few weekends working on that boat, about a year ago, until I became too busy at work - working weekends to finish the "Island Sky" ferry - & the owner, Jason, had to return to Oregon for his summer work. When I left off, there was still a fair bit of work to do to straighten out the hull, however, Jason would have had to do some work to move it to the sunshine coast, so I'd hope that the work was finished, as he'd ground out a few of the seam weld roots, in preparation for back pass. In other words, I have no idea as to the boat's present condition. I'd describe Jason as a "straight-shooter", so I'm sure he'll give you an accurate assessment when you contact him. If you know a lot about working steel, it is "doable". If not for the fact that I would prefer something much larger, would I buy it? No, but to each his own. The asking price would not be a factor in my decision.

[ecflyer]

I have been building a Roberts 343 wood version and have had nothing but the highest regard for Bruce's plans and his responce to all my questions. I did not have to pay eatra for the roberts reinforced skeg; however, I was planning to reinforce it my way anyway. I welded a 1/2" thick plate, 14" wide X the full lenght of the skeg plus 6" extended further forward to the vertical 1/4" plate in the center of the skeg. He uses a piece of 2' x 4" tube steel welded from the aft section of the keel to the leading edge of the skeg. Make sure when you install this piece that it is level with the water line. This tube steel prevents any debris from breaking off the skeg and also protects the prop from pot warps and other various debris. I received both offset tables and the printed patterns from Bruce. I used the printed patterns and found them to be within 1/16" in accuracy which is about a pencil line anyway. What the hell, your only building a boat not an airplane. If an airplane wing is off by a 1/16" it could cause wing flutter which once it starts only takes about 10 second and the wing departs the plane. Planes don't fly for shit w/o wings. No such ploblems with extreme accuracy in boat building! I can't say enough good about Bruce and I am sure you will change your mine about him and his plans before you are done building. I will admit that he does like to get a little extra money whenever possible, but look how cheep he sells his plans compared to the other navel architects. If you have any more questions during your build, I will try to help in anyway I can. It is good for fellow builders to keep in touch. You can contact me at: ecflyer@netnet.net for direct e-mail. My basic boat is built after 2.5 years and engine is mostly installed, will be doing the final paint job in about a month. I can help you in finding cheep places to purchase materials in many cases and maybe you can help me too sometimes.
Have a Great Day!
Earl

[Brent Swain]

I've heard people sing the praises of the help they get from Roberts and others say they get no help at all. All one can conclude is that it is a crapshoot which you will get.
No, boats don't have to be precision accurate. The ocean is never totally symetrical on both sides of the hull at any time. It is a rough generalisation. People who worry about 1/16th of an inch take forever to get a boat together, to no avail, and become their own worst enemy. They also tend to neglect things that actually do matter, while abosorbed in their foolish efforts to get things within a thou or two.
Brent

[dick]

Daiquiri I have built a Euro 1000 complete to the blast and paint stage which was cut locally from the cd plans and everything fitted well I would be interested in sharing some of your experience in the fitout as you have done a great job on the 1200 and anyone else who has built a steel roberts cruiser as its hard to find anyone who has.
Regards
Dick.

[daiquiri]

P.M. me with whatever questions you might have. I'll do my best to help you.

First hint:
Now that the bare hull is ready, start thinking immediately about the plants, electric, hydraulic, sanitary, refrigeration, engine cooling and ventilation. Prepare all the holes for wiring and piping passage across bulkheads and cabin soles.
We had made a mistake to not have foreseen a few holes in some very nasty corners, and it was a pain in the back (literally) to make them afterwards, with all the insulation applied and some of the machinery allready in place.

[Brent Swain]

P.M. me with whatever questions you might have. I'll do my best to help you.

First hint:
Now that the bare hull is ready, start thinking immediately about the plants, electric, hydraulic, sanitary, refrigeration, engine cooling and ventilation. Prepare all the holes for wiring and piping passage across bulkheads and cabin soles.
We had made a mistake to not have foreseen a few holes in some very nasty corners, and it was a pain in the back (literally) to make them afterwards, with all the insulation applied and some of the machinery allready in place.

I never had an electric plant except for solar panel , wind generator and alternator on the engine, and a disposable Chinese generator which I recently disposed of.
Sanitary? The Airhead type composter solves those problems.
Never felt the need for refridgeration.
I found a 12 volt fan under a cowl vent, pointed at my bunk , was the next best thing to air conditioning in the tropics.
Brent

.
never had hydralics.

[daiquiri]

I never had an electric plant except for solar panel , wind generator and alternator on the engine, and a disposable Chinese generator which I recently disposed of.
Sanitary? The Airhead type composter solves those problems.
Never felt the need for refridgeration. I found a 12 volt fan under a cowl vent, pointed at my bunk, was the next best thing to air conditioning in the tropics.
Brent
.
never had hydralics.

There are not many things which can break, wear or fail in your boat, it seems. I like your point of view.

Too bad there are lots of persons who reason in quite the opposite way, something like "I pay, therefore I want". And they generally want everything, in their boats and elsewhere. :rolleyes:

[Brent Swain]

You can always add doofunnies later , after you have cruised in your boat long enough to have learned how to get along without them. Then they become conveniences rather than necessities. Meanwhile you get out cruising sooner, and the added experience is far more valuable than the doofunies.
Brent