Fouling on Arnesen cylinders

[Commuter Boats]

Hello all. (A short introduction) I've been lurking about on this site for a few years ( largely computer illiterate but learning to surf on the ladies computer) and recently purchased a computer and em enduring a very steep learning curve. I figured out how to post a photo to the gallery today and would like to address a subject that's been bugging me for over a year ( I'm sorry I cannot yet attach a photo to a post).

A little over a year ago a gentleman by the name of Rik was posting as an advocate for Arnesen drives and was received in a less than complementary manner from a couple senior forum members. Most of those members comments were centered around fouling of the steering cylinders on Arnesen drives which Rik maintained was a nonissue.
The thread is down the page a little " best surface drive for a marine diesel".
I have just posted two photos of an Arnesen ASD 8 that has been in service for over 12 years in the propulsion section of the gallery. This drive has been worked hard, overloaded and abused. most of it has been replaced ( no fault of Arnesen's) but the steering cylinder is original as are the seals. This cylinder has 7-8000 hours on it with some periods of inactivity of over a month ( plenty of time for fowling on the piston) with no attempt to keep the cylinder compressed in times of inactivity. The piston feels oily to the touch but even with the steering hard over to the starboard, I have never seen a drip of oil pass those seals and I've checked it often.
I am the designer,builder and installer not the owner / operator but both I and the owner / operator are strong advocates of Arnesen's, I've purchased and installed six ( two were replacements) and most certainly will be purchasing more.
Although there are closer places for me to go for Arnesen support, I have recently been working with Rik and have found him to be knowledgeable and professional.
The demise of the two that required replacement were related to navigation and rocks :confused: :eek: .

[PAR]

Can you post a link to the previous thread? I did a search for Arnesen and this thread was all that returned.

[Commuter Boats]

Where it gets bully like is on pages five and six.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/surface-drives/best-surface-drive-marine-diesel-20349.html

That common will probably cost me some points :mad: oh well I only have 10 to lose :)

[Frosty]

Again we do not have a reason. Rik was given a hard time (you say) because he just insisted there was no fouling on the rams yet could not offer an explanation.

He want on to say that they had special seals that helped/ iliminated/ what ever and they were on the Web site, I could'nt find it.

Perhaps you might help us with an explanation as to why barnacles do not stick to Arnesons rams, because you know what I have to dive on my boat every month and those Malaysian barnacles grow on EVERYTHING.

[masalai]

Oh, fireing up an old and dead (no effective answer) thread by posting negative rep points anonymously is an act of distinguished cowardice and evidence of banal ignorance of polite behaviour.

My participation in that thread, - - was girt by frustration and diversionary counter claims and nonsense from self important and angry posters rendering little by way of advice or help, - - was as research into how the lower end hydraulic rams remained free of barnacles as some images showed these parts submerged when at rest/anchor.

I have since gone off the idea of surface drives and full power catamaran (similar in size to Frosty's) - reverting back to a slower 40 ft motor-sailor catamaran.... which I am building.

[Commuter Boats]

Gentlemen... Of course I knew you'd both weigh in. Frosty, a civil, gentle rebuttal for the self-proclaimed " nearly computer illiterate" relatively newbie poster here. Thank you :)

"Frosty Again we do not have a reason. Rik was given a hard time (you say) because he just insisted there was no fouling on the rams yet could not offer an explanation.

He want on to say that they had special seals that helped/ iliminated/ what ever and they were on the Web site, I could'nt find it".

Yeah OK I'm not going to reread the whole threat but that's not quite how I remembered it, I think Rik posted pictures of boats with pretty ladies on them, and after that it didn't matter what he said, you wouldn't take him seriously.
My point is the whole conversation went poorly ( which I think you contributed to) and Arneson drives came out of it with a black eye that they didn't need or deserve( just the other day I read a thread where it was stated that Arneson's should only be on a boat that is trailered).
If this forum is about the friendly sharing of boating knowledge than I don't think that that thread was in the spirit of the B.D.F.


"Perhaps you might help us with an explanation as to why barnacles do not stick to Arnesons rams, because you know what I have to dive on my boat every month and those Malaysian barnacles grow on EVERYTHING."


In my first post I said "The piston feels oily to the touch but even with the steering hard over to the starboard, I have never seen a drip of oil pass those seals and I've checked it often."
I think I set the steering pressure at 1625 pounds and with the steering wheel held hard over( full pressure on the seals) they don't leak a drip but as I said, the piston (or more correctly,the rod) feels oily to the touch which probably accounts for the lack of barnacles that find it a desirable place to live.
The first photo ( I'm sorry, I still can't link a photo) with the relatively clean appearance was a year and a half ago and as I said, that cylinder has had no maintenance in 12 years of service with 7-8000 hours of use. The second photo ( with the fouling) was taken 18 months later with 1400 hours and according to the GPS 16,400 nautical miles since the previous service / oil change.
This vessel can operate at up to 31 kns but I just stated 16400 nautical miles in 1400 hours of operating time because although this vessel was designed for another service, it now makes its living slogging through some of the worst that Southeast Alaska has to offer as a US mail and light cargo delivery vessel ( this vessel routinely operates in conditions that most would be unwilling to throw off the lines in, 20 foot seas are common).

masalai... Oh, fireing up an old and dead (no effective answer) thread by posting negative rep points anonymously is an act of distinguished cowardice and evidence of banal ignorance of polite behaviour.


I have filed no" negative rep points anonymously" for anyone ( I can't even post a picture).
If you've lost points you've pissed somebody off besides me but judging from this response, that's not hard to believe.

"My participation in that thread, - - was girt by frustration and diversionary counter claims and nonsense from self important and angry posters rendering little by way of advice or help, - - was as research into how the lower end hydraulic rams remained free of barnacles as some images showed these parts submerged when at rest/anchor."


Wow, it's like you became a lawyer all of a sudden... I'm not going to participate in a intellectual debate with you (which this sounded like a challenge for), because I don't like losing.
I've been doing the work, sticking my hands in the acetone bucket, enduring the hideous working conditions that repair dictates, getting the job done and done well for over 35 years ( it takes a toll and intellectual debates are out).
I design on a drafting table with references like Gerr and Gibs and Cox in a one and a half man shop, I am building, wiring, plumbing, and powering, successful boats built to a high standard ( though not yacht like) with this one being 40 feet overall and subjected to some of the most demanding service any boat in this class will see.
My point again was that you didn't help the free and friendly exchange of information and Arneson is a good product and doesn't deserve a black eye over the issue of Barnacle's on the steering rod which has not proven to be a problem.

"masalai Oh, fireing up an old and dead (no effective answer) thread"

Much of Rik's clientele respond well to beautiful women on go fast boats, that does not represent all of the applications that Arneson's are well-suited to. Rik didn't have any photos of an Arneson drive that was fouled, I provided one late which required revisiting this threat.

"I have since gone off the idea of surface drives and full power catamaran (similar in size to Frosty's) - reverting back to a slower 40 ft motor-sailor catamaran.... which I am building."

I wish you the best with your build but I perceive that you could benefit from being more open minded with the little people that are doing the work.
It wasn't my intent to be confrontational and Twin Disc is not my favorite vendor but Twin Disc / Arneson is a good product that is appropriate for a much more diverse market than what has been represented here and Rik has been proven to be a reliable and knowledgeable vendor.
Have a good day gentlemen
Gerald

[masalai]

Anonymous negative rep is a pet dislike.... and the timing was unfortunately circumstantial and I carefully refrained from "pointing the finger" and no detriment intended...

Oh well the phantom strikes again :D:D:D ... - - - an old fart should be excused as I have a short attention span (defective memory in the ageing process?) so tits and etc tend to distract - wondering what they are for apart from what some call "eye-candy" - I wonder why? - - -

With your point, possibly the hydraulic fluid inhibits attachment? - it (barnacles etc.) is a pest of a problem in tropical waters of severe proportions... - also possibly the 'Arneson ric's' tone got up my nose at the time....

Commuter Boats, in your post a message box, at the bottom is a button <Go Advanced>, that will allow images stored in your computer to be uploaded (the paperclip symbol) and then click on the <browse> button for each image (preferably jpeg as they are compressed) up to 5? per post then when all are identified press the <upload> button to the right of the browse buttons which will contain the list of the images you have selected to upload (stretch the 'browse' window sideways to see it)..... Then comes the waiting, - - whilst your images are uploaded - - - - then click on the <save> or whatever button by scrolling down to the bottom??? after the images or attachments have all been uploaded....

Posts can be deleted if duplicated - - just click on the edit button and there are 2 places where you click delete as you progress down the "edit" frame BOTH must be clicked to confirm....

[Frosty]

Thank you com boats. I think you are suggesting that an oily surface is all that is required to keep off barnacles? is that correct?

Rik said that barnacles was not a problem !! he posted girly pictures of totally clean drives not just the rams. This is not just the ram thing.

Yes there are cleaning seals that scrape the rams but he said barnacles dont grow on his drives.

A black Eye? If Arneson recieved a black eye then they should not look so superior and be so condascending.

Until I hear a good reason (other than an oily surface) I shall remain in doubt as to his claims.

I too love sticking my hands in buckets of acetone, there is a lot of us about. I think you'lle find most patricipants on this forum very much hands on kinda guys.

Thats why sales talk tends to rub up the wrong way.

[Steve H]

Welcome to the board Commuter!

Very good shot of the Arneson cylinders. I have had the same results with mine. "ZERO PROBLEMS". I'm sure you will get the same response from anyone else who actually has personal experiance with them. Lots of un informed hot air seems to cling to this subject. The doubters will will not believe you, me, or anyone else that actually knows. It' almost like being called a liar.
I really like it when the so called experts claim that Arnesons are only practical on boats that cruise over 40 kts. When mine cruises around 30 kts 90% of the time. As far as the big breasted blondes go, I have one of those too. I married her over 21 years ago.
Where in SE AK are you? I guided up there for several summers when I was a youngster. I am considering motoring up your way this summer. I would like to fish in some of my old stomping grounds and get the required boat picture in Glacier Bay.

Steve

[Commuter Boats]

Yes Frosty for the lack of a better excuse I think an oil film is deterring marine growth from using the steering rod as habitat. This cylinder is on a good run and until it fails I won't be able to tell you anymore about their seals. My photos clearly show that Arneson's are not immune to barnacles, as nice as it would be if they were we do live in the real world.

Frosty "A black Eye? If Arneson recieved a black eye then they should not look so superior and be so condascending."

Today's Arneson says Twin Disc on the side of it, if there's any superiority or condescending going on it's got to come from Twin Disc.;)

masalai... Thank you for the friendly response,no detriment taken, I appreciate the help cleaning up my posts and getting a handle on attaching photos.
And gentlemen, I can assure you that we can grow barnacles quite well. There is a reason that fishing is so good and humpback whales ( along with all the other sea mammals) come here to fatten up, these waters are very nutritious.
So with masalai's help I've attached the photos that I've referred to above, and one of the mail boat running fairly light.

[Commuter Boats]

Thank you Steve, yeah as time goes on I'm going to post my views on a few misconceptions about Arneson's and a few other subjects. I've got Arneson's on four different projects, all of them single engines and I don't have any of the terrible handling problems that we always hear of with single surface drives.

I have one boat out that runs a 28 inch diameter propeller and the beam of the vessel at the water line is only 84 inches, the prop is 33% of the WLB of the boat. From all the stories about single surface drives, you'd think that it could only run around in circles and on its beams-end at that.

The mail boat illustrated above tops out at 31 kns but it's running a propeller that is optimum at 18-24 kns, the speed it makes with a 3-4000 pounds of cargo. It spends a lot of time at speeds less than that slogging through the big stuff and some quite a bit faster when it's surfing.

I've followed your thread some and if I remember correctly you are running 440 Yanmars and ASD8s the same as the mail boat but we are only running one with a 1.5:1 twin disc transmission, the propeller is from Rose.

I'm in Sitka and the above-mentioned boat makes its living running around south Baranof / Cape Ommaney in the wintertime. Cape Ommaney is most likely the most ill-mannered body of water in Southeast Alaska, how well do you know your way around here? Fishing guide, what parts?

And Glacier Bay... I like going there when the park is closed ( March,April,May), I've been there when I was the only boat in the bay.
My range has been from Lituya Bay to Ketchikan.
Gerald

A link to Lituya Bay http://www.drgeorgepc.com/Tsunami1958LituyaB.html There's more if you google it.

[tom kane]

Has anyone tried LANLOIN to keep your rams and rods clear? It may keep wrinkles at bay too.Twa`s used by those brave VIKINGS to protect their boats.

[Commuter Boats]

I use LANLOIN to keep snowballs from sticking to my dog...:)
That's kind of like fouling isn't it ?

[Rik]

My my my. I glance over this site once ever few months and I see the same characters starting the same trouble. It seems the dynamic duo of "Frosty" and his side kick "masalai" are back in crime fighting action once again.

Dear Mr. Frosty and masalai, as I said, what a year ago?, the situation which you have inaccurately and slanderously proposed does not exist with the Arnesons. Hence, I cannot show you a problem that you and your side kick have falsely been claiming. Likewise I cannot defend against it with no proof other than the two of yours inability to grasp your assumptions which are wrong. The condescending attitude has unfortunately come from you two and your inability to accept or reason through your own disbeliefs. A problem neither I nor others can seem to help you with.

Will you please provide, I asked this over a year ago, an example of this problem which neither you nor your friend has substantiated? Then maybe your concerns can be put to rest. I am not in the business of designing your solutions, nor divulging how we do things so that you can copy our ideas.

I have done nothing but claim that the Arneson hydraulic cylinders do not have a barnacle problem that interferes with their operation. A claim which you and your side kick keep insisting exist, yet the two of you refuse to produce valid examples of your claims. Yes a barnacle does and will grow on an Arneson Surface Drive, if protective measures are not taken, yet they do not grow on the cylinder shafts of boats that are in operation.

This thread appears to be have been started by a customer of Arneson Surface Drives that has felt you and masalai have attempted to damaged the perception and reputation of the Arneson Surface Drives. A point that I agree with but I do not feel have been successful in achieving. Please don’t make me and others want to avoid this site due to your misconceptions and fallacious statements.

[mydauphin]

The reason most Arneson don't suffer a barnacle problem is that most these of the boats don't sit it the water long enough. They are usually trailered. Let them sit in the water long enough without use and the barnacle will grow everywhere. The Hydraulic ram are powerful enough to break the barnacle off without much problem. Once boat and drive starts operation at high speed barnacles get blown apart by pressure wave. Actually the most damage can be made to rubber type areas, a sharp oyster could cut through. Anyway, the only real damage I have seen to Arnesons is electrolysis caused by neglect, improper zincs replacement. But if you have a fine boat and let it sit and rot, then you deserve whatever you get.

Even stainless can die of neglect...

[Frosty]

But Com boats has posted pictures of barnacles on Arneson drives. There they are just above this one.

AND they have been scraped. This is more like I expected to see instead of this ridiculous thread about barnacles dont grow on Arneson.

Granted the hydraulic residue of fluid on the rams may retard growth for a while.

By the way I have met a few people that are convinced that running a surface drive cleans all the barnacles off,-sorry --only those people with surface drives know that this is not the case and movement within the marina is difficult enough and opening throttles results in smoking engines and white water with very little speed.

A sharp scraper and some serious arm work is what is required.

[Rik]

I still believe there is a disconnect.

The thread was never about "do barnacles grow on Arnesons, Yes or No", rather there was a premise founded by Mr. Frosty and masalai that the Arnesons were inferior due to fact that they thought the hydraulic cylinders were prone to marine growth and thus would constantly fail. Unfounded none the less.

I don’t know where all these trailer boats are with Arnesons. The majority of our market are Military Patrol and pleasure yachts. Neither of these two sit on a trailer. These boats are to large to be trailered around by the average “Joe” as they are over the legal length and over width to be put on city streets. Sure, they get an annual haul out for bottom paint and maintenance but majority of the time sitting on a trailer they are not.

Mr. Frosty is also correct that “mold does not gather on a rolling stone” in that marine growth is lessened on a vessel that is in use, rather than one that is sitting idle on a dock for years of uninterrupted use. And as Mr. mydauphin pointed out, anything will go to crap if neglected. The rubber boots on an Arneson provide no sealing or such so of they have a tear it is not an issue. Proper maintenance is anti fouling protection as well. This is no different than a boat with any other propulsion as the cabin cruisers in my local marina with underwater gear have a diver out there scrubbing the bottoms and such on a regular basis so I would expect no less on any other boat in the world.

[seamy]

I would not get dragged in to this again rik,my opinion for what it's worth, and i believe the opinion of any serious powerboater, is that arneson is the cream of surface propulsion, regardless of what grows on them in any given enviroment,Fixed surface drives are a robust and cheap way of getting to know and play with these type of drives, regardless of who manafactured them,whether it be someone playing at DIY,or popular and currently marketed drive types,believe me if i could indeed afford an arneson drive it would be the drive of my choice,For many years i ve messed around with fixed drives and whilst to a degree its a lot of fun,fixed surface drives are exactly that CHEAP and CHEERFUL,enough said.

[mydauphin]

Question for all of You. I saw a guy put large garbage bags over the Arnesons to prevent barnacle growth. He swore by it. What effect would this have on corrosion, make it worse? A friend of mine that has Arnesons are covered in black soot from his diesel engine. His drive is barnecle clean, but could this also have a bad effect of corrosion?

[Rik]

Question for all of You. I saw a guy put large garbage bags over the Arnesons to prevent barnacle growth. He swore by it. What effect would this have on corrosion, make it worse? A friend of mine that has Arnesons are covered in black soot from his diesel engine. His drive is barnecle clean, but could this also have a bad effect of corrosion?

I like the soot idea. Might just be the secret that the world has been looking for.

The trash bags are probably more for the rubber boots so that the sun does not break them down. They are not UV resistant. Now if someone could Velcro a bag over the drive units to the transom and fill it with fresh water.. hmmmmmm..

There was some company a few years back making a bladder for your slip that did this exact thing. Pull the boat into the slip, tighten the tarp like device up and fill it with fresh water (being heavier than salt water it would displace the salt water in the process) Voilà. No salt water growth.

[seamy]

How about a bag that would cover the entire boat,That way if it was'nt a success you would'n have to look at it,What the eye does'nt see the heart wont grieve about:D

[Frosty]

A bag on the prop is old hat stuff. I do a made up thing (bin bags not big enough) the missus sews up some big bags and I tie then them round the props and up the drives as far as I can.

Yes they do the job well especially if you are in a calm marina, if it is wavy the props cut their way out.

It will make no difference to corrosion or electrolisis as that is passed by the sea water.

The reason why they work is it starves the bastards of sun light, thats all.

[Rik]

A bag on the prop is old hat stuff. I do a made up thing (bin bags not big enough) the missus sews up some big bags and I tie then them round the props and up the drives as far as I can.

Yes they do the job well especially if you are in a calm marina, if it is wavy the props cut their way out.

It will make no difference to corrosion or electrolisis as that is passed by the sea water.

The reason why they work is it starves the bastards of sun light, thats all.

This is the exact same thing the rubber boot does on the Arneson. They are not meant to be water tight, rather day light proof as weird as that sounds.

[Commuter Boats]

Hello Rik, I thought you might have left this site. I didn't intend to drag you into this again.
"Rik, This thread appears to be have been started by a customer of Arneson Surface Drives that has felt you and masalai have attempted to damaged the perception and reputation of the Arneson Surface Drives. A point that I agree with but I do not feel have been successful in achieving. Please don’t make me and others want to avoid this site due to your misconceptions and fallacious statements."
What can I add?
And now the question of corrosion has come up, We have not experienced any galvanic corrosion issues with the exception( on one project) of the aluminum backup plate provided for the inside of the transom. A good cleanup, prime and paint is controlling that. We do regular maintenance with zinc's at 12-18 months intervals.
Two of installations that I've done have been bronze drives on aluminum boats. On both of these boats I provided a barrier of 1/8" of fiberglass ( chopped strand mat and vinyl ester resin) and neither of those have had any corrosion issues.
All of the four Arneson projects that I've been involved with and two others that are in town are kept in a slip and I too am lost as to where that idea comes from that, Arneson boats should be trailered.