Aluminum, welding equipment.

[Tigrik]

Hi All!

We're starting new project, 38' trawler yacht.
Maximum thickness - 3/8". 5/16" and 3/16" in general.

As welding equipment we've selected following:

1. Miller XMT 350MPa (450A, pulsed MIG, DC TIG)
Because of amperage, pulsed MIG + 450A TIG is a good option.
2. Miller D70DX wire feeder.
Because of full featured sequence control (pre-flow, post flow, run-in, etc)
3. Miller Spectrum 875 plasma cutter.
All parts will be pre-cut by CNC. So, it should be enough for our applications.

Any suggestions about equipment selection? Really need advice if it's correct selection ;) Especially - will we really need full featured sequence control in wire feeder?

One more dumb question :) Should we consider a TIG instead of MIG for this project? :) It's a project for me and my family, so quality is important.

Thank you!

[whoosh]

privet, I know StP well, but you do not talk like a Russian? what are these imperial sizes you give? :)
no never tig, plates or welds to plate, use only for small things like rails, the distortion will kill your boat
you have good choice but the gun is VERY important
am using a Castolin Arc^2 3000
is an OEM product of Fronius, similar to TPS 2700,
270 amps. pulse also when spot welding
4 step program with spec. start- and crater fill options for alu
Got a pushpull from Fronius, 10 meter conduit, that last para was copied from another place, but everyone down here is using them with great success, especially important the gun is made by same people, that is very rare ,see my gallery and website, really there has been tonnes written in here already abt welding, search welding a steel boat, and welding frames to plate, demystified, recent threads active

[Tigrik]

privet, I know StP well, but you do not talk like a Russian? what are these imperial sizes you give? :)

Boatdesign is US web-site, right? :) So, I hope imperial units will be much preferable for peoples here.

A thicker plate (in general) is 10mm... Mostly 5 & 8 mm.


no never tig, plates or welds to plate, use only for small things like rails, the distortion will kill your boat

It was a "dumb" question. :) I thought about it but now I have an answer from somebody else :)


Got a pushpull from Fronius

Is push-pull required for aluminum? Or it just "desired" and project can be done with push gun only? I understand that in case of push gun only the length of gun hose will be much shorter, but I decide to use separate feeder to solve this problem. Also, this feeder have special u-grooved rolls for aluminum :/ Will it be enough? :/

Here is the link to feeder: D70DX (http://www.millerwelds.com/products/wire_feeders/s_d_70_series/) - 4 drive rolls.

[whoosh]

no pushing only can not be done, you would need to hang feeder up above weld, you could not feed up, or around bends, your wire slows, your volts stay constant(on umprogrammed welders) your amps drop, your tip burns back
you need pulling gun and before you start it sounds like you need a lot of practise
When winter finishes should I come St P? show you:) just make sure you have lots of mosquito spraylots nationalities here, most of us are on metric, only North America is on imperial can you get long wide plates there? would like to know all abt boatbuilding in Ru, I have been much to Kherson adn Nikolaev , UA, they are really skilled in wood work there too, but Fazisi the Ru entrant in the Whitbread al al boat was bad real bad, why don't you sleep? it is not White Nights yet

[drmiller100]

wow, some pretty fancy welders.
for sure you will need a tig for tight areas, fuel tanks, fine work, thin metals, something.
grinders, sanders, skill saw, jigsaw, chop saw, stuff to build a jig, die grinder, some big hammers.

sure will be a big project!!!

[whoosh]

wow, some pretty fancy welders.
for sure you will need a tig for tight areas, fuel tanks, fine work, thin metals, something.
grinders, sanders, skill saw, jigsaw, chop saw, stuff to build a jig, die grinder, some big hammers.

sure will be a big project!!!
funny that, in 28 years building alloy boats and 10 steel, i never had use for tig, esp with todays pulse welders, HOWEVER if your machine has dc TIG it is darned useful for ss tig work, I think the welder I recommended has such

[Tigrik]

no pushing only can not be done
Bad news :( The only suitable push-pull welder they offering here is Millermatic 350P (push-pull, 400А). But it's a 82 kg. :/ It will be hard to send to RU :/ Can you take a look if it's what I need? Here is PDF (http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/DC12-51.pdf)


around bends, your wire slows, your volts stay constant(on umprogrammed welders) your amps drop, your tip burns back
you need pulling gun and before you start it sounds like you need a lot of practise

You mean synergetic programs for welders? This welder (XMT) have a sinergetic programm... I belive :)
Yeah... I definitely need a practice... :) But, all of us have been started from such dumb questions I think ;)


can you get long wide plates there? would like to know all abt boatbuilding in Ru

It's hard to find long plates here... But it's possible by request.
Boatbuilding in RU, and boating in general, still in "contraceptive" state :) It means it's hard to maintain self-motivation to do anything and struggle against our eggheaded officials :) Especially due to current economy... But we trying to look forward :)

why don't you sleep? it is not White Nights yet
I'm in NY for a while... What's why I'm selecting from US equipment :)

FRONIUS are pretty expensive... It cost up to $2500 more than Millermatic 350P with delivery to Finland :)

[whoosh]

oh ok, look , I can not advise on the later millers, i have some older straight migs, with hobart guns,
but you must wait for one of the americans like welder/fitter to come online And you must have a push pull, the welder I told you of will weld .6mm plate so it can go really lo in voltage, and thats with 1.2mm wire
I Know how hard it is in Ru, for the new canal river boat on the website we have plates here 10m long 2.2 wide from France, if you ahve a chat programme be only to happy to talk to you, poka poka
there is a guy comes here he has miller stuff, WYNAND, he is a steel worker, but he knows his inverter welders

[Tigrik]

you must wait for one of the americans like welder/fitter to come online And you must have a push pull
...
there is a guy comes here he has miller stuff, WYNAND, he is a steel worker, but he knows his inverter welders
Ok, will wait... :)


if you ahve a chat programme be only to happy to talk to you

Google Talk? :)

[whoosh]

see my profile for chat or yes google
what is your gmail?
this is their quote
4.075.095.638 FRONIUS TRANSPULSE SYNERGIC 2700 WELDER 1.00 12,765.00 $12,765.00
Your Pulse mig welding package will come with:
10mtr Push/pull Torch Pack, 45deg Neck, Push/Pull PCB, Earth lead and clamp, 3phase plug, Primary Lead
4mtr, Electrical Test and Tag Label, 1.2mm Rollers to suit Aluminium Wire, 2 year Warranty, Fully Supported
with back-up service, Phone and On-site Technical and Welding Support, Argon Regulator, Gas hose 1.2mtr,
au dollars, really nothing changed 30 years ago same price, transformer welder, big heavy , wire feeder pulling gun

[Wynand N]

I must confess that I not on par with the latest aluminum technology, and Whoosh and Fitter/welder are the best guys to advice on that.

My experience is mostly on steel and my Miller a decade old... However, any pulse arc inverter Mig should be an excellent machine. I had bought a few of Chinese build inverter Migs and to be honest, better machines than my older Miller period. The same with the couple of 200A inverter arc welders - excellent machines, small, light, portable and can burn a 4.00mm electrode 24/7 without any ill effects.

But it look like you have some serious machine there....

[welder/fitter]

Tigrik,
Contrary to suggestions, I am not an "expert" on what you're looking at, and would defer to "M&MOvenden", "kmorin", and others. Having said this, I'd suggest pretty much what "Whoosh" has previously stated. Though most of my experience with aluminum is with a spool gun, I have used a push-pull gun on a few occasions, recently, and would highly recommend one. I am more of a Lincoln fan, than Miller, though I wouldn't say that one is better than the other.

I'd suggest an XR-Aluma-Pro gun, air-cooled version. I believe that they can be hooked to the 12RC suitcase, which will allow you better portability. The compatibility between the XMT350 w/MPa and the 12RC is something that I am not sure of, so you may have to go with the X-TREME 12VS version for a suitcase. A suitcase will give you easier access and can be easily positioned to keep your whip straight, a very important consideration for running aluminum, even with a push-pull gun.

BTW, I'm Canadian, not American("Not that there's anything wrong with that!")
:D
Hope this helps.
Mike

[Tigrik]

I had bought a few of Chinese build inverter Migs and to be honest, better machines than my older Miller period.

What kind of Chinese welders you've tried? We have a couple trademarks like Blueweld, Prestige and so on ("Italian Chinese") here in Russia. They offering more features (like 2T, 4T, pulse-on-pulse) for less money... but I'm beware of quality. I've seen few models inside - looks like a clew of wires :/ Do you have any suggestions on quality of Chinese tools you've dealed with?

We also have a few european brands: Kemppi (Finland), Fronius, etc.. Where is no any doubts about quality, but that's a completely different prices (>30-50% higher than typical Chinese brands).

We have Lincoln Electric dialer here (in Moscow)... but for myself Miller looks more preferable. The only difference between Lincoln & Miller (PowerMig 350 & Millermatic 350) is what Lincoln have built-in TIG, but have 2 drive rolls in feeder instead of 4 drive rolls in Miller (no TIG in Miller also).

4 drive feeder in Miller should work much better with aluminum, IMO. And I can live without TIG, as I think separate AC/DC TIG is much more preferable for aluminum.


I'd suggest an XR-Aluma-Pro gun, air-cooled version. I believe that they can be hooked to the 12RC suitcase, which will allow you better portability.


Where is no any comments on web-site what push-pull gun will fit to suitcase feeders. Even more, in docs for push-pull gun wrote what it's suitable only to XR control (which is separate wire feeder for aluminum) or Millermatic 350P. XR control feeder isn't an option for me as it's not clear if it can feed anything but aluminum. In additional, M350P have an enhanced sequence control features, like crater & run-in timers, etc.

So, again... What is more suitable for aluminum: XMT + suitcase/separate feeder (S70DX?) with short standard gun, or MM350P with long push-pull gun?
Also, why an air-cooled gun but water cooled?

[welder/fitter]

Personally, for working in and around a boat, I'd prefer a suitcase. Better to wind weld cable around corners, than your whip, when running Al wire. You didn't mention how deep your pockets were, so I thought I'd suggest air(push-pull gun), because you'll need a source for your plasma.

If you could find out which chinese factory is building the inverters, it could be of great value. When I lived in Asia, I had nothing but grief with chinese hand tools & have found that the cheap "made in China" grinders, that are sold in western Canada, are garbage. Having said this, my Lincoln portable runs as well as my old Hobart and - much to my dismay - has a tag on the back, which states "product of China". If the distributor is giving you a decent warranty, why not save the money & go chinese?

[orcaboatsaust]

Tigrik
Been welding aluminium for over 20years, sold Miller and Fronius for 3yrs as technical rep.. hope I can offer some help
I have &use Miller xmt 350 with optima pulse because of auto line ,restricted to single phase ,22a wire feeder ,and run a 10ft mig gun ,teflon liner ,5183 grade wire,it is a great machine,I dont suffer from feed problems at all ,hanging the wire feeder is good idea but not always possible, I think Miller do a push /pull.called the edge, down under ,your choice of the 70dx feeder is goodFronius tps2700 is the best. push/pull gun is a great advantage especially in tight areas. the Fronius also has dual pulse or pulse on pulse allowing for tig finish from a mig. I agree seperate ac/dc tig is very handy for intricate work . The xmt has a beautiful dc tig arc , as does the fronius. Fronius has built in pulse where miller xmt is external.
for plasma you cant beat Hypertherm ,USA made ,been making them for over 40yrs just plasma. miller is ok but Hypertherm is the best.Dont touch the chinese,no duty cycle and the money you saved will cost you in the end .If money tight XMT ,22A,Optima pulse ,start off with 10ft gun than maybe add push/pull down the track , to stretch the dollars. good luck

[Tigrik]

You didn't mention how deep your pockets were


I'll say XMT350 MPa + D70DX is at the top of my financial possibilities... Probably even a bit exceeding it... :)

Dont touch the chinese

Thanks a lot.
We have few european brands here...

Here is one example: TELWIN INVERPULSE 420 MIG,TIG,MMA, water cooled (http://www.world-of-machinery.com/product_cat/telwin_mma_mig_tig_3in1_welder/TELWIN_INVERPULSE_420_MIG_TIG_MMA_RA.pdf)

This machine (powersource, water cooler, separate feeder, trolley + acc) will cost me same price as I'll pay for MM 350P with delivery to Russia. But I think by features this machine will be closer to XMT350MPa (but only 350A on 40%)... or a LI PowerMig 350MP. It also have puls-on-puls but... no push-pull there :) The main weak point for me - 3 phase 380V only... MM350P & XMT350 have multivoltage.

I believe it's chinese made but Italian branded. Any suggestions?

[Wynand N]

Don't touch the Chinese

I beg to differ...

There are some crap and then there are some really good stuff from the land of slit eyes. My Chinese made welders take a beating every day and not a single problem experienced. Open them covers and the inside may put some good brand names to shame - substantial high quality pc boards, faultless wiring and everything on par with the best.

If you are on a tight budget, it may be well your worth to consider these machines. Get a dealer to show you the insides of a Miller, Lincoln or Hobart, take note of it, go to a dealer handling quality Chinese stuff and let him open his machines and make your choice. Best test thought - test weld it... You may end up paying far less than half for an excellent machine. :cool:

You may also be surprised how many of the well branded USA and European machines are in fact being build in China. Shit, even my American upper high end Marantz hifi amplifier was built in China....:(

[whoosh]

many of the welding power pacs have link inside, to take taps for 380, 415 and 230 3 phase , usually I set up on 380, because although supply is 415, we used to get voltage droop, and therefore 380 was better.
the main thing for you in Ru, WHO WILL FIX IT? is there an agent there?
can you find my email address on the website and I may ring you when you get back St P

[orcaboatsaust]

Being in Australia reliability and back up service important down here as everything is 6-10 weeks away, what I like about XMT350 is can run of 10 or 15 amp single phase (240v) and be welding 10mm 5083 plate all day with out duty cycle problems. The auto line is great for power supply short fall ,no 415V.

I agree with Wynard....Yes test is a great idea...ask the dealer to set up demo and leave for a few days for you to try ,putting it through its paces. The plate thickness you are using shouldn't be a bother with duty cycle.


You can also run helium/argon gas mix to increase heat output ,but dont think you will require to do this,just another option.

Remember the agent want to make the sale ,use this to your advangtage, get him to bring the models you are interested in so you can compare each one .....good luck

[simon]

Does anyone have experience with the Kemppi Kempact 3000 or the Fronius Transpuls Synergic 2700? How do they compare to the Miller XMT 350MP, besides the amperage? What are the alternatives?

Simon

[orcaboatsaust]

do you have power limitations?
what size plate are you welding?

Kempii have a beautiful system,great integral synergic pulse system,good control panel that is not too complicated......good push pull set up . most important is availablity of consumables and parts...they have nylon rollers that wear out with heavy use....teflon liners etc ... parts are hard to get in our local area,.......check your area

Fronius TPS2700 is the pick of the pack for ali guys down here as they have good back up with plenty of consumables(tips ,shrouds etc ) and parts on hand....check your area
set up with push pull system it is very portable & popular....good pulse system ,pulse on pulse, the control panel once familiar is very good set up.

Both systems above are dedicated three phase machines and are multi process... .

Miller XMT350MP is another great system ,it does n't have pulse on pulse, but pulse system is very easy and simple to use. This system requires seperate wire feeder ,plus lead kit ,so that makes it not as compact as the other two machines.....plenty of parts etc available ....check your area
But it has auto line ,which allows it to run on single phase or three phase.
It is also mult process
Compare the duty cycle......
all are very good machines.........depends on how much you can spend,....back up service and parts.

Hope this helped .....

[simon]

orcaboatsaust: thanks for the information.
it would be mainly for 3, 4mm and 6mm plates and 4, 5 and 6 mm extrusions.
some 10mm plating for local reinforcements.
Do you think that they are worth the higher price, for better finishing, higher welding speed and less distortion?

Simon

[orcaboatsaust]

is it a one off build ,or production ?
I think they a great time saver for production ,because of better finish ,..etc .
Thus paying for itself with the reduction of manufacture time. Production business a major benefit ...if it a one off build well your call on what you want to spend.

Those plates sizes are not a concern for all the machines ,....

[orcaboatsaust]

my personal choice would be towards Fronius if 3 phase supply not a problem....
good luck