Small sailboat Design - advice requested

[ancient kayaker]

While temporarily prevented from building I turned my attention to designing. My less-than-athletic wife recently said she would be willing to venture into a sailboat, should I build one (silly girl - I didn’t get it in writing though). So it would be nice to have a sailboat for 2 in the family, to be sailed very conservatively, although when used by me I may get more adventurous if unsupervised.

Adding her needs to my preferences has led to the following requirements:

1. Compact and light: easily car-topable by one person and beach-launchable.
2. Very stable: one person can stand and access rig and rudder.
3. Space for 2 gracefully aging adults in relative comfort.
4. Robust enough for its planned environment - small lakes with gentle breezes.
5. Able to re-board from the water following a flip-over.
6. Simple, easy-to-sail rig, but able to progress to windward.
7. Some performance would be nice with a second rig but way down on the list.
8. Cute; I like chick magnets even at my age.
9. Easy to build is nice but I have some experience building small boats.

Looking at all these requirements, I found myself drawn to the PDRacer. It satisfies the first 3 requirements very well with some modifications to meet a couple of concerns. My first concern is, being flat-bottomed, it will likely pound, small lakes can throw up a chop very quickly, so I plan to give it a Vee entry for a smoother ride. Also, I’d like a bit more buoyancy aft and a flatter bottom to let a passenger ride further aft and give the skipper enough space to work midships. That would also allow me to row us home if needed.
Not sure if we have any Puddle Duck sailers out there, but what do you think of this idea so far?

[PAR]

Michael Storer is the one you need to talk to, regarding the PDR. He knows my opinion of the little thing, which I lovingly refer to as a sailing concrete mixing tub.

http://www.pdracer.info/

He's done a nice job with several and created an Australian version with racing rules and all.

I think you'd not like the look of a sail powered mixing tub, but some (usually Bolger box boat lovers) seem to love the thing. It's incredibly stable, as a fair amount of room for an 8' boat, is light and if you put enough sail on it, respectable, but still only a child a mother could love in the chick magnet department, no matter how much bright mahogany trim you install.

There are a lot of small designs out there that are a whole bunch better looking, but then again most not as simple as a PD.

[ancient kayaker]

I've been studying the PDR pages for a while; thanks for the Storer link - didn't have that one. As a hitherto builder of slick, slim canoes I gotta admit it took a bit of adjustment! The room, lightness and stability is what I am after, plus it doesn't take up a lot of storage space, something I am rapidly running out of as the boats begin to pile up.

Do you think my hull shape changes are sound? I am wondering if changing the pram transom from flat to a curve or Vee shape will improve wave penetration. Also perhaps a pinch of sheer curve to improve its looks, if that is possible.

Although my robustness requirements conflict with my desire for light weight, Oz rules call for min hull+board+rudder weight of 65 lb, say 60 lb hull only which I can cartop single-handed. Thus I can go with the recommended 6 mm ply bottom, 4 mm ply sides/tanks/deck and 8 or 9 mm ply transoms. I am tempted to have a 4 mm bottom with battens, perhaps doubled in the flat center portion (have lots of 4 mm). The twisted bottom bends are no sharper than the original bottom bends. I am planning for 8" wide side buoyancy tanks, I will put plenty of reinforcements so they can double as seats.

Re-boarding a small boat can be a challenge for those of us who are past their sell-by-date, athletically speaking, but the side buoyancy tanks will help in this regard and I plan to have a buoyant mast so, if she flips, she remains on her side. One tank alone should support me and the hull, so perhaps I can climb up and lie on top of it and then roll the boat upright again by using my weight from inside. If that’s not as easy as I hope, then it’s climb over the transom as usual. I will experiment in the pool and install whatever re-boarding aids are needed.

[matoi]

If you want a proper boat, don't miss to take a good look at a Wayfarer, perhaps then build your own 'look-alike'...

www.wayfarer.org.uk
www.wayfarer-canada.org
http://www.wayfarer-international.org/WIT/WITindex2.html
(on the last link look for the Kit Construction Manual)

Good luck!

[bistros]

If you want a proper boat, don't miss to take a good look at a Wayfarer, perhaps then build your own 'look-alike'...

www.wayfarer.org.uk
www.wayfarer-canada.org
http://www.wayfarer-international.org/WIT/WITindex2.html
(on the last link look for the Kit Construction Manual)

Good luck!

I'll second the Wayfarer - just about perfect for your needs. Here in Canada there is a Wayfarer clone called the CL-16 from CL Boats in Ft. Erie, ON. They have a CL-14 version that also is a great fit.

From my perspective (having a non-sailing wife), a Puddle Duck is just way too small and crowded. I tried sailing with my wife in a 13.5 foot homebuild this summer, and it was too small for her to be comfortable.

All this being said, building will probably delay things for at least a season. I'd really consider watching Craigslist and Kijiji in K-W, Barrie, Owen Sound and Guelph for a second hand bargain. You won't lose money sailing one for a season and you'll know quickly what to build, and what works for you and your wife.

Building even a modified Puddle Duck will cost more and be less comfortable and fun than a used boat. I would not even consider anything under 12' seriously.

You'd have no trouble going over to Sauble, Penetanguishene or Wasaga with a CL-14 or 16 and being able to have a great day on the lake.

--
Bill

[PAR]

How about a conventional design, maybe on the narrow side, with detachable outriggers for those occasions you're with your other half.

[ancient kayaker]

M&B: I like the wayfarer a lot, but it is more of a performance boat than a plodding bathtub which is what I am looking for. Also the PDR is quick and dirt cheap to build. I should check to see if it's roomy enough although it seems pretty spacious.

PAR: I used to have a sailing canoe that I fitted with an outrigger for trips with the Missus, but it got destroyed. I could build a new 2-seater, sailing canoe and outfit it with amas, but the PDR would have a lot more space.

[sharpii2]

Hi, Ancient Kayaker.

I have decide to post a profile and section drawing of my 'Motha Jugs' design, so you could get an idea of what I would think of as a good small lake sailboat.

It is a pdracer class compliant design meant to sail in small lakes with hidden shoals.

The boards and rudder can both bounce up from the bottom and be pulled back down with bungee cords with no help from the skipper.

Here goes.

[PAR]

No, I was thinking more along the lines of a flattie or sharpie, both of which are fairly high in initial stability, more so with outriggers, but when some performance was desired, the outriggers could be removed.

[bistros]

M&B: I like the wayfarer a lot, but it is more of a performance boat than a plodding bathtub which is what I am looking for. Also the PDR is quick and dirt cheap to build. I should check to see if it's roomy enough although it seems pretty spacious.

PAR: I used to have a sailing canoe that I fitted with an outrigger for trips with the Missus, but it got destroyed. I could build a new 2-seater, sailing canoe and outfit it with amas, but the PDR would have a lot more space.

Terry:

From where I sit, a Wayfarer sure isn't a performance boat. Almost impossible to capsize, they've actually been sailed from the UK to Iceland. Lots of people in the UK use them for weekend camping trips. Compared to the performance skiffs I sail, they do fit the plodding bathtub label pretty well. I looked at a used CL-16 this past summer as a family boat and it was short of a good centerboard from me buying. $800, which was a great price.

There is a Snipe fleet at Guelph Lake on Highway 24 that has boats come up at good prices every year - a Snipe is a great fit as well. Rock solid stable and very comfortable for two or three people. I've got one I'm rebuilding for a family boat that I picked up for $200 - the wood mast was rotted, the boom done as well, but with a coat of two part poly paint, a rebuilt steel daggerboard a used aluminum mast I bought cheap it'll be on the water this summer for under $500. Class legal and it'll look & be basically new.

Doesn't really matter what you build/buy as long as the Boss has a good time.

--
Bill

[PAR]

What a sailor may consider rock solid stabile, the other half may feel is a wee bit tender.

[ancient kayaker]

I have to quote these words of wisdom from Bistros and Par:

"Doesn't really matter what you build/buy as long as the Boss has a good time"

"What a sailor may consider rock solid stabile, the other half may feel is a wee bit tender"

Serious design drivers, those. I enjoy the design and building process more than fixing up old boats. Par, I am thinking about your suggestion of a flattie, almost as easy to build.

[PAR]

Make it narrow and fast. Log onto Michael Storer's site and down load his detachable outriggers (tell him I sent you). You'll likely have to rescale them, but you can have a very stable, flat sailing, leisurely outing boat for you and the one who must be obeyed. When you need a speed fix, remove the outriggers and see how long it takes until you're rewarded with a death roll.

[bistros]

What a sailor may consider rock solid stabile, the other half may feel is a wee bit tender.

My single hand skiff is stable in one position - upside down. You can't leave it at the dock for ten seconds - it can't stand up on it's own.

It only becomes stable with a person on board, and more and more stable as speed increases. Planing on a trapeze reach with the asymmetrical kite up it is as stable as the Titanic.

To me the Snipe is a rock, but I acknowledge to people that have lead poisoning (keel boat folks) and stink boaters it would probably seem "tippy".

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

Actually, I can't really imagine my old Missus in a planing skiff, hanging on for dear life with the skipper grimly hanging onto a trapeze, whitecaps slashing by and waves smacking the bows, and saying "isn't it lovely and stable!" But it's an entertaining thought.

I recall getting her into a keelboat a few decades back, a lovely old round-the-buoys racer from way back, heeled over maybe 15 deg but there wasn't not much freeboard on that low-built sucker and you could just see the water flashing by inches below the lee gunnel, turning to me with a glazed look in her eyes and asking "are we going to sink?" or somesuch remark.

She actually does like sailing, on a quiet, gentle day, and like me, isn't much impressed by a powerboat, just another form of motor transportation.

[thesawdustmaker]

"She actually does like sailing, on a quiet, gentle day, and like me, isn't much impressed by a powerboat, just another form of motor transportation"

Sailing is to boating as fly-fishing is to angling as Formula 1 is to auto racing. Finesse, deftness, and style count for a lot.

[matoi]

On a Wayfarer you can stand on the gunwhale and it won't tip over. And if your better half still feels unsafe, you can install a steel centerplate making it even more stable. All that aside, anything can be capsized in an accident or by bad sailing. I managed to capsize my W before I learnt how to gybe properly, and my girlfriend did become less enthusiastic about sailing in a dinghy. So, skill is required in any small boat.

But, until you develop the guts to sail to Iceland, with a Wayfarer you can do things like this:

http://sites.google.com/site/sailpinchika/Home/logs

Best wishes

[PI Design]

Hi,

Don't worry about a Wayfarer being too quick/tippy - they have a reputation in England for being the most solid, stable and manageable boat around - even more so than the plethora of new rotomoulded designs. At my club there are around 60 Wayfarers, none are raced - they are all owned by the more mature sailor going for a gentle potter. They aren't light though and you have no chance of putting one on the roof of your car!
I have to agree with Bistros - don't look at anything less than 14ft if you want enough space to take you both in comfort.

What about a GP14? http://www.fyneboatkits.com/trolleyed/3/23/index.htm

[millionswords]

hmmmm - now I know what you have been doing!
Actually PDRacer was one of the first pages I researched, and thought it is more of a boat than a Kayak, so headed away to find Kayak designs!

Good Luck on your PDR sail boat! hope to see it done and sail in peaceful waters! Might make one some day later, will keep an eye on what you do, I might want to make one for the family when they are comfortable and confident on my skills :P

[BOATMIK]

but still only a child a mother could love in the chick magnet department, no matter how much bright mahogany trim you install.

I am sorry?

Pardon ....

The PDRacer NOT a Chick Magnet????

You will like these pics I got today (yes TODAY) from the philippines where a couple have been built.

Some show the happy owner

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/dylan1958/PDRacer%20Launch/IMG_2035.jpg

but others show something else ...

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/dylan1958/PDRacer%20Launch/IMG_1989.jpg

the full set can be seen here so you can see the girls were drawn to the boat of their own accord. You can see them walking along the beach towards the humble PDRacer
http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/dylan1958/PDRacer%20Launch/?start=0

hehehe

If I was an advertising type I might suggest that this was a common risk for all PDRacer owners.

Best wishes
MIK

[matoi]

MIK,

I take my hat off to you. Your propaganda is way better than mine :-)

Best regards,

Mato

[PAR]

Of course it had nothing at all to do with the "Free Beer" sign just out of camera view . . .

[bistros]

Terry:

Michael Storer's homebuilds/ (http://www.storerboatplans.com/).

The Goat Island Skiff and the 14' Raid boat look like great candidates - big enough to comfortable fit two. I'd personally opt for the Raid boat - I'm a long ago convert to boats that recover dry. I wanted to put bailing behind me a long time ago, and our cold Canadian waters are better kept outside the boat than inside. Easy rowing would make this far nicer if you get caught without wind. Built with the birdsmouth hollow masts, either would be a great option.

Although you want a boat that basically can't capsize, you have to plan for the worst and assume it could happen. I know without a doubt I wouldn't want to pull my wife into a PDR if she swam. An older British homebuilt that also fits is a pretty blue sailed Enterprise (I sailed them 30 years ago and loved them).

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

Matoi, I will take great care to ensure the missus doesn't see THAT site until after she has enjoyed a relaxed, leisurely trip around a really small lake! Boatmik: same goes for the chick pic! There's something about a really small boat that just draws them in, isn't there! Par: shame on you, you old cynic! 'sides, when they're that young, they go for free Pepsi.

Bistros: hauling the wet missus into anything afloat is definitely not in the plan, but I was thinking of having a boarding ladder so she could climb back over the transom, while I jeer from midships or perhaps something more appropriate. I was thinking earlier about the GI Skiff. I don't know much about the Raider, it seems a hair heavier but less beamy, perhaps that is due to the self-bailing feature. They are both light, obviously easy to build, probably easy to cartop, and they'll certainly have the legs of the PDR. although significantly heavier. My boats usually end up lighter than average, I know where I can skim off the odd pound or two. I don't want to bother with a trailer. I'm thinking that a 15 ft boat is going to need 2 to cartop, whereas I can easily manage the PDR on my own. The missus is not into helping to load boats. My son has no interest in boats at all, on the other hand, my daughter can be talked into anything! Decisions, decisions ...

10^6 swords, you found the thread already! I needn't have sent the email! These guys are throwing so much good stuff at me that I will have to go through a major exercise just making up my mind which boat to build. Of course, I don't have to stop at one.

[PAR]

They're not that young, you're just old enough to think they are. Doesn't "experience" suck . . .

There's plenty of them out there. Here's two of mine, DragonFly and RYD-8.4. DragonFly is 16', fractionally rigged Bermudian and fast, though fairly stable as far as performance dinghies go. RYD-8.4 is a load carrying tender for a larger yacht. Lightly loaded and hiking out, you can get some performance out of her, but she's really just a tender, but a stable and easy to build one. Basically the two ends of the spectrum. If you want real fast, I got them too. I've been working on a new 15' boat that's cool looking and if you can hold her down, very fast. Bring a harness, you'll need it. Full up weight for the whole boat is less then 150 pounds, rig and all. Your reward for screwing up, is a quick dunk in the drink.

[BOATMIK]

MIK,

I take my hat off to you. Your propaganda is way better than mine :-)

Best regards,

Mato

Cheers Matoi!

I think ... maybe not propaganda ... I think more LUCK that Dylan sent me the pics the same day as this discussion!

MIK

[Doug Lord]

AK, have you seen this? http://www.atkinboatplans.com/ Scroll down and click on "Sailboats and Auxiliaries". Then on the 10' Tri Trainer(not a trimaran).

[ancient kayaker]

Par, the RYD-8.4 looks very suited for my purpose, what does it weigh? It's not much larger than a PDR.

Doug: I added the link to my favorites for later consumption. thanks.

As an aside, I notice that, on many Gunter rigs, the boom and gaff are similar in length, and I would assume in section too. Is it practical, if becalmed, to drop the rig and use the boom and gaff as oars, with a clip-on blade? They look to be about the right length and diameter. Sounds like the sort of feature a cheap ready made boat might have, and reduces the on-board clutter.

[PAR]

Less then 100 pounds with full exterior 'glass sheathing and rig. The bare hull is about 60 pounds. The daggerboard case moves around for the different rigs. I'd strongly recommend the Bermudian cat for best performance.

[JotM]

AK,

I'd say there are quite a few candidates among the designs of Paul Fisher (Selway-Fisher) (http://www.selway-fisher.com/Dinghies.htm) and Gavin Atkins (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gavin/index.htm).

Regards

[bistros]

Bistros: hauling the wet missus into anything afloat is definitely not in the plan, but I was thinking of having a boarding ladder so she could climb back over the transom, while I jeer from midships or perhaps something more appropriate. I was thinking earlier about the GI Skiff. I don't know much about the Raider, it seems a hair heavier but less beamy, perhaps that is due to the self-bailing feature. They are both light, obviously easy to build, probably easy to cartop, and they'll certainly have the legs of the PDR. although significantly heavier. My boats usually end up lighter than average, I know where I can skim off the odd pound or two. I don't want to bother with a trailer. I'm thinking that a 15 ft boat is going to need 2 to cartop, whereas I can easily manage the PDR on my own. The missus is not into helping to load boats. My son has no interest in boats at all, on the other hand, my daughter can be talked into anything! Decisions, decisions ...


Car topping is an area where a little innovative thinking can save a lot of Robaxicet.

I've car topped boats single handed that others thought hard - without any strain or trouble. For me, a key is making a little castored dolly that attaches to one end of the boat. Depends on the hull type.

This allows me to move the boat around holding up just one end. I then usually approach my van from the back and already have a carpet on the back edge of the roof. I put the uncastored end on the roof and then pick up the other end and slide it forward on the carpet until I can wiggle it on to the roof racks. Once it is on the racks, the whole thing slides forward easy, and I can get it in place for tie down. One person and it is far easier than having any help.

Woodenboat last year had a supplement called "Living with Small Boats" that showed some really neat single hand roof top systems. One loaded the boat from the side and cantilevered the whole thing on the roof on hinges.

Right now my boat is hanging from the roof of my garage over the little car (so the van gets full height on the other side). Release one cleat and the whole thing drops down on the roof rack and you can drive out.

The point of all this is to let you know that with a little thought and napkin engineering you aren't limited to a little tiny boat that you can bench press single handed.

--
Bill

[GTO]

http://www.instantboats.com/cartopper.htm

or even the Teal:

http://www.instantboats.com/teal.htm

[ancient kayaker]

Bill: I read the WB article, lots of good ideas there. I had a 80 lb boat a couple of years back that I used to invert and run up my van’s windshield on a two-wheeled dolly; modern windshields are part of a vehicle’s structure so it took it easily. However, I mostly load my plastic kayaks from the side, due to the shape of the roof-rack on the current van. Double-enders can be tricky to control when loading. My home-built canoes can be loaded with one arm though. A boat with a transom would be far easier to load as it would stay put while I lean it against the van.

As you say, the trick is to lift only half the boat while the van holds up the rest. I did some “napkin engineering” engineering for the PDR and it might be so short I will end up supporting almost its entire weight at one point in the process. However, I can have a box on the ground to rest the transom on so it slopes at a more gentle angle, leaving more weight on the roof-rack.

I have several boats hanging from various parts of my garage but there’s no way I could get a van in there! Soon I’m going to need auxiliary storage (or buyers).

[ancient kayaker]

While somewhat stubborn, I can take advice. So instead of the Puddle Duck I am going with a small skiff, about the same weight stripped for car-topping, but much better performance and probably similar stability - the same bottom width (4'). Chine log construction, 6mm bottom, 4 mm sides/tanks decks, should come to about 60 lb hull, 90 lb ready to sail with rig, rudder board and seats. I will have 2 rigs, about 40 sq ft for learning and taking out the Missus, if I can thaw her feet out, difficult to capsize with that small a sail but bouyancy tanks and re-boarding provisions just in case. Maybe a 70 sq ft rig later for fun.

thanks to everyone!

Sharpii2, good luck with 'Motha Jugs'!

[bistros]

While somewhat stubborn, I can take advice. So instead of the Puddle Duck I am going with a small skiff, about the same weight stripped for car-topping, but much better performance and probably similar stability - the same bottom width (4'). Chine log construction, 6mm bottom, 4 mm sides/tanks decks, should come to about 60 lb hull, 90 lb ready to sail with rig, rudder board and seats. I will have 2 rigs, about 40 sq ft for learning and taking out the Missus, if I can thaw her feet out, difficult to capsize with that small a sail but bouyancy tanks and re-boarding provisions just in case. Maybe a 70 sq ft rig later for fun.

thanks to everyone!

Sharpii2, good luck with 'Motha Jugs'!

I wouldn't call you stubborn. Definitely careful and certainly not capricious.

Which design got the nod as your inspiration?

I built a boat last year (pictured below) that was mostly based on 4mm for sides & decks - and having done so I would consider using the 6mm for the side decks that may be used for seating. The 4mm is quite flexible and we ended up putting knee braces every 12 inches or so to make it rigid enough. If the tanks are to be sat on or weighted, keeping them curved would help strength.

Build it pretty and the wife will want to go out. Pretty is more important than most people understand. I'd also put some thought into the design of the crew's "quarters" - a wide comfortable thwart for seating and movement or a floor-level daggerboard trunk that doesn't intrude on seating can make all the difference in the world. Make sure none of the working rigging gets in the way of her ride and your ride will be more pleasant. Stern sheeting and avoiding a boom vang may be worthwhile.

Another good point is figuring out how you can keep the boat stable at the dock for "passenger" entry and exit. Very light boats work best if they can be stabilized when tied up to the dock with a rope OR rail that keep the boat from heeling. Wide side rails (or "wings") that can rest on top of the dock help.


I really think you'll enjoy a little bigger boat more. Others may not have followed your posts as carefully as I have in the past, and remembering your years of wisdom is a major reason why I think bigger is far better. I'm almost 50 and even my flexibility isn't what it used to be.

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

Bill: that's a nice boat, looks fast!

I did a concept design, starting off with the PDRacer's overall dimensions and refining it into a flat-bottomed skiff with similar lateral buoyancy and stability numbers and more longitudinal stability, then fed it through my design process that I use for canoes to make construction as easy as possible - "lazy" being just a euphemism for smart. I ended up with a concept that looked very like PAR's neat little 10 footer, so I may just go with PAR's design if it suits my building methods as I haven’t done the structural analysis for my design yet. However, your notes on the value of size are well taken and I might stretch my own design to 12 ft since it has a little more beam, depends on how the exact weight comes out; that would give at least 50% more heeling resistance.

As you noted, 4mm ply is flexible. In my design I planned to use side tanks which doubled as torque tubes, large enough so she could be righted virtually dry following a capsize. As an experiment I built a 7' x 8" x 7" ama using 3 mm ply a few years back, when it came time to junk it, two of us stood on it (425 lb) and jumped up and down with the ends raised up on bricks, it didn't even creak. In the end I had to take a saw to it: an axe just bounced off or just made small holes. A closed box is amazingly strong and rigid. With the mast and board

I can do pretty! My canoes get a lot of compliments and interest when I take one out on the water; it isn't difficult, 20% attention to joints, 20% reasonable finish and 60% balanced proportions. I use a lot of math in my designs, the 3D curves are splines that are derived from conics. I find if I allow the material to take a natural shape it’s impossible to build ugly.

You have some good thoughts on crew accommodations: I was going to put La Missus at the transom on a nice stylish wooden chair with a comfortable back, like the "girling" canoes of 100 years ago. She has a parasol, but I will forgo the wind-up gramophone and small guitar that were de rigeur back than!

I planned to arrange the controls so I can pilot from forrard to give her lots of leg room. I was planning a small and simple rig, no vang, rudder controlled through a cord led around the gunnels and back through a bow block (a common trick in excursion yachts way back when) and sprit set nice and high for zero head-banging. Something entirely different for me when alone of course!

Boat stability for entry and exit is an important point. I generally launch from a sloping beach so I can part the flat, wide transom on the sand during the all-aboard, get yersef comfortable phase, maybe a little ladder over the transom that will serve for re-boarding during solo adventures, and then I can hop in over the bow which will bring the stern out of the mud. The hydrostatic on my conceptual design work out well for that.

What did you mean by "floor-level daggerboard trunk"? as I thought the trunk had to reach above the waterline by definition.

Terry

[gggGuest]

The 4mm is quite flexible and we ended up putting knee braces every 12 inches or so to make it rigid enough.
Flooring grade styrofoam (eg Dow Floormate) makes good deck beams, won't absorb too much water especially if the beams are arranged well clear of the floor so water will never pool on them, and also gives you some reserve buoyancy if the worst happens.

However, your notes on the value of size are well taken and I might stretch my own design to 12 ft since it has a little more beam, depends on how the exact weight comes out; that would give at least 50% more heeling resistance.
Extra length confers an awful lot of stability, even without beam, and there's also something to be said for a boat that's narrow enough that its very easy to step into the centre... A boat where you are more or less forced to step in well out from the centreline feels a lot less stable than when were the layout enopcurages your first contact to be on the centreline.

What did you mean by "floor-level daggerboard trunk"? as I thought the trunk had to reach above the waterline by definition.
The limiting factors for the case height tend to be structural - the leverage of the board on the structure (and the structure on the board!), and the waterline when swamped... In a reasonably sized light boat without too much of a load on board the static waterline is really very low in normal use... And if you have a snugly fitting daggerboard so water ingress is minimal I guess the case might not have to be above the waterline when the boat is swamped. So your buoyancy arrangements are a significant input to your case design!

[bistros]

Bill: that's a nice boat, looks fast!

What did you mean by "floor-level daggerboard trunk"? as I thought the trunk had to reach above the waterline by definition.

Terry

Your thought process sounds great. I'd have to agree with your reasoning.

If you build a false floor/deck at/slightly above the waterline, leaving an air chamber underneath you can have the top of the daggerboard trunk be at floor level - that is what we did on my boat, and it leaves the deck wide open for accommodations as there is no need for side tanks. This is the basis for most dry capsize dinghies - righting the boat causes all the water to immediately drain out the open transom.

The openness of these designs is wonderful for people - the drawback is that poeple often feel they aren't sitting "in" the boat as much because the cockpit has less depth. In a boat with adequate freeboard this isn't an issue but a low freeboard boat can feel kind of exposed.

My single hand skiff (Falco Mk III design by Eric McNicholl) IS stupid fast. The day pictured it was blowing 5-8 knots of wind and it was easily outpacing a club coach boat (we used for pictures) with four people and a 30HP motor. The caveat with this boat is that it easily exceeds my ability to sail it well - I've got a lot of learning (and swimming) to do. I'm very happy with it, but am working towards solving the "family" boat need like you - I'm rebuilding an old Snipe for similar duties - wife, kid & family outings without drama and swimming.

I'll probably be going through your neighborhood a couple times this summer - my parents live on Lake Huron near Tobermory and we usually try to spend some time in Georgian Bay on the water. If I get it done, I'll have the Snipe sailing up the Georgian Bay side of the peninsula from Lion's Head to Tobermory during our holidays.

[ancient kayaker]

G4: thanks, I hadn't thought about swamped vs normal waterlines before; good point to bear in mind.

Bill: the dry capsize technique I mean is often used in the PDR - using side tanks large enough to lift and drain the hull as it floats on its side with a bouyant mast. The side tanks will also make dandy seats with back support if I make the the inwale fairly deep. As you noted, a raised floor cockpit reduces internal height and is less comfortable in a small boat.

Currently I am studying a couple of boat books: "build a simple dinghy" by Nicolson and Reynolds, has some thought provoking designs; New Plywood Boats by Firth Jones is very open about his errors which makes his boat educational by allowing me to learn from his mistakes as well as my own.

I have boat plans for a sailing canoe and Rushton's Wee Lassie, and several study plans for skiffs but I've only designed and built canoes so far. My method is ideal for a light skiff hull, and I want to have input into the design but still don't know enough. However I need to know more about mast step and centerboard trunk construction before proceeding so I will probably acquire one or two more detailed plans. I want to mock up the inside, of course, since that is key. Also it would be a good idea to add a temporary transom to my 10 ft canoe, weight it to 60 lb or so, then try loading it on the van to ensure I will be able to car-top the new boat.

I have more than enough 4 mm marine ply on hand and an untouched sheet of 6 mm (just bought a small job lot) plus Baltic Birch ply which might be good for the transom, so I'm good to go once I clean out the garage!

[ancient kayaker]

I’ll just review where I’m at for those who are interested. I have to admit that progress has been severely delayed by health issues, mostly related to my old fart syndrome, but I expect to start building in about a week. In the meantime I have worked on the detail design and construction method. Clearing the rubbish in the workshop that accumulated from a bathroom renovation is under way. Materials are 90% on hand; just need some clean pine, a little mahogany trim and a piece of spruce for the mast.

Objectives remain as per the first post, but negative comments on the PDRacer were taken to heart especially after watching a video in which one pecked alarmingly as it took wind pressure from aft, almost pitch-poling and coming to a virtual stop.

The advice for bigger boat was also noted but took second place to my wish for car topper this time. However, I recall the quote “Your next boat will be bigger than your last” attributed to W. Pirrie - designer of the Titanic. I’ve already got enough wood for it ...

I did a little skiff design of my own based on your helpful comments, but eventually I settled for Par’s little 10' boat, as I didn’t know about sizing scantling, daggerboard trunk construction, sail plans and other stuff. She will be called “Dace”, a small, slim active fish I used to angle for as a youngster in the UK; pretty but difficult to catch!

Those who know me understand that getting me to build anything “as designed” is like trying to herd cats! First thing I did when Par’s design package arrived was analyze the lines, to see how much I could simplify the building process, being somewhat lazy. I have made slight changes to suit my construction method. The only visible difference is a slight change to the sheer line in the plan view. *

I also started a parallel thread to solicit advice on buoyancy tanks. I will have side tanks from transom to the foredeck, at sheer level, which will also function as seats and side decks, providing structural stiffness in what is going to be a light boat. They’ll be air-filled but will have air bags near the stern for backup. I’ll have some foam under the foredeck as well. It’s going to take a lot to sink this little lady: perhaps I should call her “Molly Brown”.

She will have 3 mast step locations so I can gradually increase the sail size. To know yourself is an important step on the path to wisdom. The mast steps are all in the foredeck which is a compromise between two of Par’s accommodation layouts.

Her first sail will be small, a Bermudan spritsail of my own design using Par’s sail plan. I will make the sprit boom a double wishbone, similar to those used for sailing boards, but the sail will have 2 layers and the halves of the boom will separate, so I can open it out double-size rigger for downwind, conditions permitting: instant spinnaker! That sail will be made of tarp material as it’s just an experiment. Later I will step the mast. forward and have a proper sail made up, using Par’s larger plan.

So that’s were I’m at. I will post some pics as I progress. I hope to get her into the water for the Summer, if the arthritis and sciatica permit!

* p.s., main reason for the slight change to the sheerline plan was to make the sheer plank development easier to calculate & cut. It's now all straight lines.

[ancient kayaker]

I did some building of Dace during June but July so far has been a wash due to a variety of things. Don't you hate the way Life gets in the way of Boats? Anyway, I'm back at work. She got her bottom on yesterday and is feeling a lot better now she is decently covered up! She is about ready for flipping over so the real work can start.

Here's some pics: sorry I haven't been following up earlier but this lot gets me caught up. More to follow.

Construction notes: the sheer planks are 4 mm marine ply, the developments are straight sided. The inwales and chine logs were glued on with Titebond III while the sheer planks were flat; that made them a bit too stiff so I had to slit them at 3" intervals.

The cutting table is topped with insulating foam which makes it very easy for cutting out with a hand-held circular saw. The straight-sided developments make cutting a snap, using an 8' guide customized to my saw.

Joints at or below the waterline are made with epoxy, including the stem, transom to sheer joints and bottom.

In the last pic the bulkhead can be seen, with a centerpost to support the daggerboard trunk. I cracked a chine log: the repair is visible but it is inside the bouyancy tank so it will not be seen. a pair of knees can aslo be seen at the transom, but these are only to hold shape for construction so they are smaller than normal. The scuppers are inboard to clear the buoyancy tanks. Dang: I just remembered that I forgot to seal and paint the scuppers!

The bottom and transom are fastened by roundhead steel screws while the epoxy sets: these will be exchanged for countersunk brass ones in the finished boat.

The full-length 3/8" Baltic Birch ply keelson is bonded to the bottom which is 6 mm marine ply. The keelson is supported aft of the bulkhead by a temporary 2/4 spine (held by the clamp), and a permanent spine is used ahead of the bulkhead to provide support for the 3 planned mast steps.

A clunky mold of 2 x 4's can be seen but that is temporary. The transom top is flat but will be shaped to a curve later.

[bistros]

I did some building of Dace during June but July so far has been a wash due to a variety of things. Don't you hate the way Life gets in the way of Boats? Anyway, I'm back at work. She got her bottom on yesterday and is feeling a lot better now she is decently covered up! She is about ready for flipping over so the real work can start.

Here's some pics: sorry I haven't been following up earlier but this lot gets me caught up. More to follow.

Construction notes: the sheer planks are 4 mm marine ply, the developments are straight sided. The inwales and chine logs were glued on with Titebond III while the sheer planks were flat; that made them a bit too stiff so I had to slit them at 3" intervals.

The cutting table is topped with insulating foam which makes it very easy for cutting out with a hand-held circular saw. The straight-sided developments make cutting a snap, using an 8' guide customized to my saw.

Joints at or below the waterline are made with epoxy, including the stem, transom to sheer joints and bottom.

In the last pic the bulkhead can be seen, with a centerpost to support the daggerboard trunk. I cracked a chine log: the repair is visible but it is inside the bouyancy tank so it will not be seen. a pair of knees can aslo be seen at the transom, but these are only to hold shape for construction so they are smaller than normal. The scuppers are inboard to clear the buoyancy tanks. Dang: I just remembered that I forgot to seal and paint the scuppers!

The bottom and transom are fastened by roundhead steel screws while the epoxy sets: these will be exchanged for countersunk brass ones in the finished boat.

The full-length 3/8" Baltic Birch ply keelson is bonded to the bottom which is 6 mm marine ply. The keelson is supported aft of the bulkhead by a temporary 2/4 spine (held by the clamp), and a permanent spine is used ahead of the bulkhead to provide support for the 3 planned mast steps.

A clunky mold of 2 x 4's can be seen but that is temporary. The transom top is flat but will be shaped to a curve later.

Terry:

Dace looks great! I too remember fishing for Dace as a kid - although some people referred to them as Creek Chub.

I'm building a boat for my son right now - the garage has been elevated from it's lowly duties of storing cars and off-season paraphernalia to the lofty role of boatshop. I've been blogging the process - given the humble nature of the project and it's non-foiling intent I questioned the value of posting things here. Here's a link to the blog (http://microskiff.blogspot.com/) - I'd appreciate your feedback. I've gone through a whole bunch of the same decisions and issues that you have - reaching some of the same and some different conclusions!

Cheers,

--
Bill Strosberg

[ancient kayaker]

A garage can be used for many purposes, the wost thing you can use it for is storing a car, especially in Ottawa. Lived there, done that, watched several cars reduced to heaps of rust. I wasn't a boater back then, but I concluded that cars last longer when they are left outside. I had a fire in my garage a couple of years ago and during the repairs it was brought up to current code. At the same time I crossed some palms with silver and had the doors, insulation and wiring improved. It's now a nice workshop, but if I open the overhead door it quickly gets infested with local kids who are fascinated by the boatbuilding process. This assures an adequate supply of future boatbuilders!

I enjoyed your bog; as you wrote we have a lot of things in common. I would like to start a blog but I need to find webspace: did your internet provider give you server space?

I know Lee Valley Tools well, we have a branch in Toronto - I thought I had died and gone to heaven! I use Titebond III only where I can assure a perfectly fitting joint, which is easy when the joint components are laying flat. I think if my boat were intended to stay in the water I would change to epoxy, and would certainly consider a saturation coat. I don't use a lot of Titebond III, my current tube is on its third boat - it goes a long way in zero-gap joints. Although I use epoxy on a minority of joints I use far more of it overall.

Interesting account about phoning from Odawa to Tronna about unbranded Tyvek for sails. I am going to try tarp, I have got some nice silver stuff and there is a source of white tarp on the net - they even supply finished sails. Rather than using double-sided tape as some do, I sew mine, an old sailor's skill picked up from an old sailor; my dad "sailed before the mast" way back when. Spritsails are easy to make as they can be sewn flat.

What are the dimensions for your boat's daggerboard? I assume there will be one eventually. Mine is 1-1/8" thick which seems a bit much although I can do it but I would have though for such a little boat 3/4" would be enough.

Your stringer on the cockpit floor, or chine log as some call them, is exactly what I do between the sheer planks and bottom, except I glue it to the sheers first instead of the bottom. For my 5-plank canoes I also glue logs to the bottom edges, mount the bottom on the stems, and plane the bottom and sheer edges to accept the garboards or bilg planks. It's virtually impossible to get this joint to fit perfectly, I usually end up with gaps up to about 0.02" so epoxy is needed anyway here. I am thinking of trying out the 5200 marine sealant together with screws on a future boat.

After this very simple flattie I would like to try something a bit more shapely, perhaps a 5-planker or even a round hull using my version of lapstrake mooted in the zipper-seam thread. But I will try it on a canoe first.

[dskira]

I will put my grain of salt, since ancient kayaker is talking of less than athletic wife.
I am myself, due to age and circonstances not anymore athletic, and my wife eather.
the only requirement she asked was to have an enclosed head. Since I want to built to the cheapest possible by not going wild in size, I opted for a non trailable super heavy very small boat.
I designed a very deep, ballasted inside at high ratio, with a headroom at 4'6", two berth and a enclosed head. The lenght on deck is 22'. To keep it cheap, old fashion jib headed rig.
The super weight allow me to "walk" the deck and my wife to feel safe. The engine, to keep it cheap is a 9.9 Hp outboard.
All that for a wife who wanted a private head, condition non negotiable, for her to came sailing.
I love my wife, I want to sail with her, so orderd, I designed the boat around the head! Building start in October. I hope she like it:)

[bistros]

I enjoyed your bog; as you wrote we have a lot of things in common. I would like to start a blog but I need to find webspace: did your internet provider give you server space?


blogspot.com gives you the space for free. Very easy and convenient.


What are the dimensions for your boat's daggerboard? I assume there will be one eventually. Mine is 1-1/8" thick which seems a bit much although I can do it but I would have though for such a little boat 3/4" would be enough.


3/4 at the widest. 7.625 inches length. 3 feet depth.


Your stringer on the cockpit floor, or chine log as some call them, is exactly what I do between the sheer planks and bottom, except I glue it to the sheers first instead of the bottom. For my 5-plank canoes I also glue logs to the bottom edges, mount the bottom on the stems, and plane the bottom and sheer edges to accept the garboards or bilg planks. It's virtually impossible to get this joint to fit perfectly, I usually end up with gaps up to about 0.02" so epoxy is needed anyway here. I am thinking of trying out the 5200 marine sealant together with screws on a future boat.

After this very simple flattie I would like to try something a bit more shapely, perhaps a 5-planker or even a round hull using my version of lapstrake mooted in the zipper-seam thread. But I will try it on a canoe first.

I'll have to read the other thread to catch up.

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

dskira: it would be a real challenge to put a head in my 10' sailboat! But then my wife is not expecting to cruise on it, just a short trip around the lake is all she'll settle for.

Come to think of it, it seems a lot of work just for that! At least I will be able to use this boat to practice the gentle art of sailing. And one should never forget the words of W. Pirrie, Titanic Designer, "Your next boat will be bigger than your last."

[ancient kayaker]

Here are more pictures of the Dace build, which is proceeding slowly but surely. So far I have removed the temporary mold and keelson spine, so she is now self-supporting.

In the first pic the outwales have been attached, I use cheap clamps made of cut-up plastic plumbing pipe as I don't have enough regular clamps.

The trunk has been built, painted inside and in the second pic it has been glued to the bulkhead and keelson.

[Doug Lord]

Looks good,Terry-best of luck!

[PAR]

It looks like you may be short a few clamps. More pictures please . . .

[alan white]

Looking good, Terry. Definitely post more pictures.

[ancient kayaker]

It looks like you may be short a few clamps. More pictures please . . .

Clamps, the ultimate limitation to the size boat I can build. OK Paul, I admit it!

[lewisboats]

Definitely Woefully under-clamped. :D

[ancient kayaker]

I found some more clamps and a buddy who will lend me some: next time!

[ancient kayaker]

Progress continues to be slower than I would prefer but I am hoping to get the little lady into the water before winter! Some photos attached.



I finally figured out how to clamp a batten with a triangular cross section; wish I had known this sooner, could have saved a pound or two on the chine logs.

I used temporary wood blocks fastened with carpet tape to keep the buoyancy tank sides straight during gluing.

The movable mast step can be clamped on the keel, so I can experiment with different sailing rigs and mast rake angles.

The build so far: she needs hatch covers, foredeck and transom cap, rudder post and oarlock mounts and she will be ready to finish. Of course, a mast would be handy but I have the oars so at least she will be able to get wet and get back to shore!

[Raggi_Thor]

A great little boat.
Whats the other boat we see behind?

[souljour2000]

Ancient kayaker..your boat is coming along...keep enjoying the process..it seems to have gotten you a long way so far...keep posting pics sir...

Raggi Thor!...That Cape henry 21 on your website looks like a great boat design..I really like the skeg and the keel winch design looks ergonomic and just looks like it has a nice"feel"...not "clunky". I own an old 1983 Hunter 20 so I know "clunky"..well...

[ancient kayaker]

A great little boat.
Whats the other boat we see behind?

There's a wall of small boats behind the sailboat. The green canoe at the bottom with wood trim is the 3.6m lake canoe Dora, see post #94 in http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/projects-proposals/challenge-100-boat-12176-7.html and there is an unfinished 3.2m river canoe (another $100 challenge entrant, when finished) that needs decks and paint, as well as a plastic kayak that I don't use now I have wood boats. I am running out of boatbuilding space! I am also getting buried under things I want to do and ideas I want to try, including http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/articulated-sailboat-24598.html

I did a 30 cm section of hollow wooden mast this afternoon as an experiment, it came out really well so I can go ahead on the full-sized version. I think I will have a 2-piece mast, so the sections fit inside the boat for rowing. I'm completing the detail design as I go along, but the underwater shape is based on one of Par's design. I like the way she is shaping up and think she will look very nice in the water. Her name is Dace (small Euro/UK fish).

[Raggi_Thor]

Terry, you do a lot :)

Cape Henry, that is a Dudley Dix design. I thought I could sell some kits here in Norway, but it seems like most people here prefer to buy boats or build from scratch after they cut the trees themselves...

[nukisen]

Maybe my page can help you. But is in swedish. so you have to access via google translate. To have it in your own lang.
I will also start build my own projekt at friday.
And see where it ends.
http://janne.mammamita.se/?page_id=260
Take a look at this one if it fits you.

[nukisen]

Sorry i saw that I should read the whole thread before i post.
Ur building projekt looks really really god.
Good luck.

[dskira]

dskira: it would be a real challenge to put a head in my 10' sailboat! But then my wife is not expecting to cruise on it, just a short trip around the lake is all she'll settle for.

Come to think of it, it seems a lot of work just for that! At least I will be able to use this boat to practice the gentle art of sailing. And one should never forget the words of W. Pirrie, Titanic Designer, "Your next boat will be bigger than your last."


You are right 10' is small for a head.
I like you quote of the Titanic designer.
Cheers
Daniel

[ancient kayaker]

Well, the hull is nearly complete, the area underneath the foredeck has been painted and the foredeck can go on tomorrow. Then she will need hatch covers and rudder mounts, as well as the rudder/tiller and daggerboard. Once built I can climb in and figure out the rowing arrangements. I am fortunate to have a pool so we can get acquainted before trusting myself to the lake.

I plan to make a little cart to fit in the trunk so I can wheel her from the van to the water. I am thinking of raising the top of the transom a bit so I can put a couple of holes through it and use the oars as wheelbarrow handles.

I also have to build the (first) sail rig. It will be a leg-o-mutton type http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/sprit/index.cfm but with a double layered sail and 2 hollow wishbone booms, so I can open it to double the area for running downwind. The sail will wrap around the mast to provide a clean airflow due to the double sided airfoil. When running several short, loose rope loops will secure the center of the sail to the mast. It should be simple to make and sail. Currently planning to have about 42/84 sq ft (4/8 m2). I can't start the mast yet (2-piece hollow spruce) as I need a 22.5 deg chamfer bit for the router.

Naturally, at this stage I am thinking about the next boat, which will have to wait a while. No harm in dreaming though! I am wondering how a 12 ft/3.6 m dinghy with shallow vee-bottom rounded bilge design will handle. I would expect that to be rather less stable than the the flattie above but faster heeled in light airs and able to plane, perhaps easier to row as well. This time it will be my own design as I want to try out a new construction idea - yet again!

[Timothy]

If you are going to use a wrap around sail and a wishbone boom that is hinged at the forward end, it will need a choker that passes from one side of the boom though holes in both plys of the sail, and is then secured to the other side of the boom . The boom itself will have to be held up by a line between the sail plys rove through a block on the mast above the height of the choker, as with wrap around sails it is necessary to have an out haul led from the cockpit to the mast base ,up to a block near the hinge ,then along one side of the wishbone boom and back to the clew, rather than a simple snotter . The resulting downward pressure on boom is considerable and must be apposed by something other than the sail where it is holed for the chocker. If you wish the sail to open for downwind sailing then you will need another out haul on the other side of the wishbone. You will not need any other lines to secure the sail to the mast . Remember that it is imperative to slacken the out haul (hauls) before lowering sail otherwise the luff is under tension and is not free to slide down the mast.

[ancient kayaker]

Timothy: many thanks for the inputs. Here’s my rigging plan so far-

As you suggest, I will use a rope (choker) passing aft of the mast through reinforced holes in the sail plies (actually just one large oval hole) and attached to the forward ends of both booms. The booms will be held up by the sail. There will be no snotter; as with a windsurfer boom the out-haul line provide sail tension. Both sail plies will have an identical arrangement, mirror images in fact, also separate sheets.

To open the sail for downwind sailing I will haul on the mainsheet for the inner ply , which will be loose. For normal sailing with the sail plies together,

I don’t see why there would be significant downward pressure on the forward end of the boom, provided the mainsheet is attached close to the clew, but if it is excessive I can add a deadeye to support the choker.

I do see a potential problem when changing tack as the tension in the inner sail ply will increase as it wraps around the mast. It may be compensated as the choker unwraps around the mast allowing the boom to move foreward. I will see what happens in practice; some problems just have to be solved on the run.

[ancient kayaker]

Moving forward, the foredeck is on, mast holes drilled and plugs (for rowing) made. Just realized my camera has a dark spot, it's not on the boat!

The lines are quite sweet, I think, but I am starting to wish I had made the buoyancy tank sides curved instead of straight, and perhaps sloping too. Oh! well, next time ...

I will build the launching cart first so I can see where I want to put the handles then I can figure out what I want to do at the transom. I can use the oars as handles. Once the transom is finished I can start sanding! I'll add the brightwork after painting as I am sometimes a sloppy painter.

I still don't have a 22.5 deg router bit but I did a short section of the hollow mast as a practice run; is ws straight forward and turned out fairly good considering I was hand-cutting the bevels.

[Timothy]

Boat looks great! The downward pressure I was referring to only applys if you want to lead the outhaul back to the cockpit so that you can adjust the flatness of the sail while at the tiller. My boat which is larger requires that I have mechanical advantage . I have a four to one purchace along the boom rather than from the cockpit to some what alleviate the problem.

[dskira]

Moving forward, the foredeck is on, mast holes drilled and plugs (for rowing) made. Just realized my camera has a dark spot, it's not on the boat!

The lines are quite sweet, I think, but I am starting to wish I had made the buoyancy tank sides curved instead of straight, and perhaps sloping too. Oh! well, next time ...

I will build the launching cart first so I can see where I want to put the handles then I can figure out what I want to do at the transom. I can use the oars as handles. Once the transom is finished I can start sanding! I'll add the brightwork after painting as I am sometimes a sloppy painter.

I still don't have a 22.5 deg router bit but I did a short section of the hollow mast as a practice run; is ws straight forward and turned out fairly good considering I was hand-cutting the bevels.

I think the buoyancy tanks look pretty fine. You did a great job and looks very pleasing as is.
Cheers
Daniel

[nukisen]

"Ancient"
Thanks for the update of your building. I must say I like it a lot.
The tanks, I dont think you have to wory about them to very much. In my eyes, it looks very pretty nice ;) .

I am considered My little boat will not become this good looking.
But I will not make this much work on it either.

Congratulation!!
I really like this one.

Well done:p

[nukisen]

I saw that it looks like you will use a "Centerboard".

Or will you attach a keel in the opening?

How does this look like.
And have you already placed this one.

[Guest625101138]

Moving forward, the foredeck is on, mast holes drilled and plugs (for rowing) made. Just realized my camera has a dark spot, it's not on the boat!

The lines are quite sweet, I think, but I am starting to wish I had made the buoyancy tank sides curved instead of straight, and perhaps sloping too. Oh! well, next time ...

....

Terry
No longer the ancient kayaker. Need a name change - ancient sailor, what about ancient mariner!

Hull looks good. Always fun anticipating the launch when it gets to this stage.

Rick W

[ancient kayaker]

I saw that it looks like you will use a "Centerboard". Or will you attach a keel in the opening? How does this look like. And have you already placed this one.

It will be a daggerboard, about 0.25 x 0.75 m, lowered vertically through the trunk which is located aft of the bulkhead, visible in several of the recent photos. It will have a Clark Y profile, made of laminated cedar with a hardwood leading edge and probably brass bound on the bottom edge. I may put some pine laminations in just for the look of it.

I have just finished making the launching trolley which fits into the daggerboard slot and converts the boat into a wheelbarrow, using the oars extended beyond the transom as handles. I was lucky today, found a cheap 0.25 m diameter pneumatic wheel. It is perfect as I have to launch across a wide beach of very soft sand. I will post a photo when that is done - it should look rather neat - but I have work to do on the transom first.

Terry
No longer the ancient kayaker. Need a name change - ancient sailor, what about ancient mariner!

Hull looks good. Always fun anticipating the launch when it gets to this stage.

Rick W

We already have an ancientmariner, and I’ll always be a kayaker, in fact I have already selected the paddle I want to be buried with! So I guess I’ll remain the ancient kayaker. Are you going to become the ancient peddlar?

I too am looking forward to the launch. I usually wet new boats in my swimming pool first, to check out trim, stability, and work out any potentially embarrassing kinks. But that doesn’t count as the launch IMHO. She will probably launch first as a rowing boat then get her sails later. I’m not sure if that’s two (or three) launches. Have I confused anyone yet?

[ancient kayaker]

Some more pics of recent progress.

1. I got lucky with a nice pneumatic wheel, very cheap and the perfect size. I mounted it on a frame that fits the daggerboard slot. It needs something to stop it falling out at inconvenient moments. It fits neatly underneath the foredeck.

2. The wheel assembly forms part of my patent wheelbarrow conversion kit, shown modelled by a shady-looking itinerant working off a gambling debt between alcoholic binges. The weight on the handles (oars) is very little and it wheels along very easily.

3. Getting the boat on the van for car-topping looks doable: the transom top edge is flat so it stays firmly on the ground while I lift the bow; the wheel is quite heavy though and I will leave it out next time. I need something to grab onto for lifting the transom.

4. I also need something to protect the van and the deck from each other. That's my neighbours slightly larger boat in the background.

The rowing arrangements have been designed and finished, but are not visible in the pics. If the itinerant is still around next week I'll stick him in the boat and take a photo.

The workshop has been reconfigured for mast-building, and I now have a nice set of router bits that are perfect for cutting the bevels, so tomorrow is official mast day.

[sharpii2]

A very good looking skiff.

I like your 'V' deck for the fore deck.

I'm quite Into the idea myself.

Congrats on a good design. Cant wait to hear how it sails.

[ancient kayaker]

The original design I got from Par; there's a drawing in post #25. I changed the taped chine construction to chine log style which I prefer, and designed the foredeck and seats/bouyancy tanks myself. A lot of the detail design is driven by the rquirements I listed in the first post, but with a lot of input from the other contributors. I think she will meet all the requirements although the jury is still out on #7 & #8.

I will bright-finish the deck, and would like to do the same for the seats but one has a water stain I am trying to remove (I glued it on upside down: my own fault). If it doesn't come out they will both have to be painted.

I started on the hollow mast today. I cut a 2 x 4 (actual 1.5 x 3.5) into 3 strips a hair over 1" thick and reglued them to form a 1 x 4.5 plank from which to cut the staves. Easier than planing down a 2 x 6 plank as I don't have a thickness planer. I am making the lower section of the 2-piece telescopic mast from 8 spruce staves with 22.5 deg bevels. I will tape them together, apply glue roll them up and bind the mast - very easy to do. The plank thickness is the width of the staves when sanded - 0.97" - so I just route the bevels and cut off a stave, then repeat ...

All was going well until I was forced to use my handheld circular saw on a left-to-right cut. It blew dust straight into my eyes. Why don't they make those things blow the dust forward? It ends up on the plank anyway. I put on safety glasses which I detest. I was already wearing ear protectors and dust mask, and the goggles immediately began to fog up. The saw guide chose this moment to start to loosen, and I couldn't see what was happening.

Safety glasses are badly designed; I wore goggles for years as a motorcyclist, never had a fogging problem. What part of working half-blind do the manufacturers think is safe?

A distracted worker is a bad worker, and I started to make mistakes after I was thrown off my rhythm, so I gave up spoiling wood for the day. Fortunately I had a 50% waste allowance.

Par mentioned the birdsmouth method to me, which I think I will try on the upper mast section just for a change. Also I think I will use clear pine for the upper section, I found the spruce dust is very irritating and I will have to scarf one or two of the staves to eliminate knots.

[bistros]

Par mentioned the birdsmouth method to me, which I think I will try on the upper mast section just for a change. Also I think I will use clear pine for the upper section, I found the spruce dust is very irritating and I will have to scarf one or two of the staves to eliminate knots.

I'm going to be making a birdsmouth version real soon. I can see a very simple routing jig to cut the birdsmouth - basically construct a V-form jig at 90 degrees and bring a straight router but up through the bottom of the "V", offset so that one edge of the bit is in line with the bottom of the "V". Passing stock through the jig will cut a perfect birdsmouth as long as the depth is set right for the stave thickness.

Once the staves are cut, then you can taper the stave on a table saw.

I'm going to make my mast straight for the first two feet and then tapered down from there.

--
Bill

[PAR]

A datto blade in the table saw does quick work of the bird's beak. Two 45 degree passes on the table saw will also get the job done with a regular blade. Use good feathers, as the stock is light and will "buzz" pretty good. Spend some time with your setup so you can cut an "asymmetrical" stave. It's a lot easy to smooth this style of birdsmouth and since the stick starts out as an octagon, the lower portion of a mast can stay that way, which looks nice and is often seen of larger bow sprits. The asymmetrical layout is also slightly stronger.

[ancient kayaker]

...very simple routing jig to cut the birdsmouth ,,, I'm going to make my mast straight for the first two feet and then tapered down from there.
--
Bill

... neat idea for the jig. I just found a 90 degree vee bit I didn’t know I had! That should simplify things considerably. I am making this mast straight but a tapered mast doesn’t look too difficult if I can only start with a straight plank.

A datto blade in the table saw does quick work of the bird's beak. Two 45 degree passes on the table saw will also get the job done with a regular blade ... the stick starts out as an octagon, the lower portion of a mast can stay that way, which looks nice ...

I don't have a table saw but I can use my cute little Bosche palm router with a vee bit to cut the vee before cutting the stave off the side of the plank, less handling than cutting plain staves and cutting the vees afterwards. As I am half-way through the plain beveled staves I will go with that for the lower 2.5" dia section, and try the birdsmouth method on the upper section; I think it will be quicker and easier.

I think an octagonal mast will look cool, with the corners rounded slightly for comfortable handling. Full rounding would weaken it right at the joints.

[PAR]

I spec mast sections for birdsmouth at the joints, which are the narrowest portions of the stave wall. So, yes, you'd have a slightly stiffer mast if the corners were just eased. It would also be slightly heavier too.

Have you had a chance to weigh Dace yet?

[ancient kayaker]

The completed hull, ready for finishing, is 58 lb (26 kg), so she should be right on the target weight of 60 lb when painted and varnished.

[ancient kayaker]

I have put mast making on pause for a few days while I finish the hull, as I want to get her in the water as a row boat first. I want to try a few experiments in the pool to test stability and establish procedure for righting after a knockdown, re-entry from the water and suchlike - the sort of stuff I like to know about a new boat before I take it into open water. I prefer to do this before the water gets too cold!

Also I ran into problems with the wood winding all over the place after the staves were cut. Although all came out of the same plank, some stayed straight while some curved and others twisted; not usable. Disappointing as only one stave has a knot that requires a scarf; it seemed like a clean piece of spruce. I may use clear pine instead, and increase the wall thickness.

[PAR]

Yep, it's impossible to see all the internal stresses inside a piece of lumber, until you release those with a saw and allow it to take a more natural set.

[nukisen]

hey "Ancient" !
I can see your job has given result. I cant stand it without knowledge about how it will appear in the water.
Hahaha I just love the idea about the Wheel to make it easy to handle the boat onshore.

As you can see my projekt has taking a little
jump. But mine will not be as good looking as yours. I also think I have spent a whole lot of less hours. Also I am still a happy amateur. The design I made was meant to be sheap and easy built. Cause I just want to test another way to use the wind.
As I am not earning a lot of money, and also have four boys. The sheap way to build is important for me, and i have spent about 20 us dollars so far.
And it looks like the budget ends with about 40 bucks :P .

[Raggi_Thor]

Janne, (Nukisen), I hope we don't hijack theis thread now, but I'm a bit concerned. You write on your web page that your little boat will weigh 60kg and have a displacement of 110kg, and approx 40kg of ballast. What about cargo or crew?

[nukisen]

Dear "Raggi"!
Thank you for concerning.
Maybe I have not explained this very good at my site. I have to update this.
About 200 kilos is calculated and approximately 100 kg netto wight.
So The extra 100kilos is myself. And max load will be around 200 kilos. If someone dare to participate on a tour. And of course then the recistance will bee higher. The crosscurve tells me that I still can tilt the boat for 60 degrees.

Also, I have built a little bit further to.

Excuse us "Ancient"!
Hope you dont bother that we hijacked your thread.
I have showed the excelent solution with oars and the wheels, and I can tell that I am not the only one who are impressed. I do like it a lot.

[ancient kayaker]

Not much done lately, been recovering from an injury and preoccupied by family troubles. I was worried about the strength of the boat, so I did some testing. Put her up on blocks and walked all over the unsupported bottom, didn't even creak. Also bounced on the seats looking for soft or weak spots, everything held up under my weight although there is one area that creaks a little. Not where I would normally sit, so I will accept that. Basically she is waiting for finishing once I can get out from under my other problems. She will be tougher after she is finished as I intend to put a row of brass screws into each load-bearing joint as a backup to the glue.

[bistros]

Not much done lately, been recovering from an injury and preoccupied by family troubles. I was worried about the strength of the boat, so I did some testing. Put her up on blocks and walked all over the unsupported bottom, didn't even creak. Also bounced on the seats looking for soft or weak spots, everything held up under my weight although there is one area that creaks a little. Not where I would normally sit, so I will accept that. Basically she is waiting for finishing once I can get out from under my other problems. She will be tougher after she is finished as I intend to put a row of brass screws into each load-bearing joint as a backup to the glue.

Hope everyone recovers and is well. Testing sounds like it was successful.

I'd think about the brass screws - unless you predrill, and sink them into epoxy you may be creating more trouble than you solve. A screw is a water/moisture vector. Sounds like the boat is strong enough as it is.

--
Bill

[dskira]

Not much done lately, been recovering from an injury and preoccupied by family troubles.

Hope everything find.
cheers
Daniel

[ancient kayaker]

Hope everyone recovers and is well. Testing sounds like it was successful.

I'd think about the brass screws - unless you predrill, and sink them into epoxy you may be creating more trouble than you solve. A screw is a water/moisture vector. Sounds like the boat is strong enough as it is.

--
Bill

I installed roundheaded steel screws to clamp during gluing; these have now been removed. I plan to countersink before the final coat, then bed the screws in caulk. Mostly the screws are a backup.

I am concerned that, if a linear glue joint starts to fail at one point, it will then "unzip" the rest of the way much the way a crack propagates. The screws should stop that. Probably overbuilding, but that's not a bad thing.

[bistros]

I installed roundheaded steel screws to clamp during gluing; these have now been removed. I plan to countersink before the final coat, then bed the screws in caulk. Mostly the screws are a backup.

I am concerned that, if a linear glue joint starts to fail at one point, it will then "unzip" the rest of the way much the way a crack propagates. The screws should stop that. Probably overbuilding, but that's not a bad thing.

Terry:

I did some ad hoc failure testing on the Titebond III glue prior to using it here on Thomas' boat. I wanted to see how and when it would fail on a chine log / plywood joint after curing. Like you, I'm a little obsessive about materials. Since Thomas' boat has been designed/built for low cost and parental homebuild with building center materials (no Okume, pine stringers) I wanted to see how strong it was going to be.

Once cured, the Titebond III / plywood joint is basically stronger than a comparable screw / yellow carpenter's glue joint by a couple orders of magnitude. Placing extreme sheer on the chine log, attempting to "unzip" the joint resulted in the plywood failing and delaminating well before the glue joint failed. Joint strength is comparable to an epoxy fillet with good colloidal silica content.

All my testing was done assuming a dry, well maintained joint.

I'm more than convinced the screws are not needed. I removed 80% in Thomas' boat, and left in only those providing support to areas where major bends were in the chine logs.

For what its worth.

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

Bill:
you are quite correct, Titebond III is far stronger than any of the materials I use and probably any of the common woods. I didn't explain my concern very well.

Let's consider a wood plank with a chine log glued along one edge. Most of the forces exerted on the plank will pass through this joint, and compression and sheer forces can be ignored for our purposes.

Any locally applied force resulting in tension across the joint will, if severe enough, crack the plank at that location leaving a thin layer of wood attached by the glue to the chine log, because wood is weakest in tension and across the grain. Now there is a crack in the joint which results in stress concentration at each end of the crack, and if the force is maintained the joint can "unzip" along a considerable length. It's only the wood splitting, a familiar thing but it is still a failure, even if technically not actually within the joint.

A screw passing through the thickness of the ply into the chine log will transfer tensile forces to the outside surface of the ply where they will become compression, which the wood can handle much better. If the wood on the inside of the joint fails the wood under the screw head starts to crush, absorbing energy. The screw creates a strong point preventing further crack growth.

A siple glued joint is indeed stronger than a simple screwed joint, but the screwed joint does not have a catastrophic failure mode. Using both gives the best of both worlds.

I only use screws in addition to glue in locations where a sudden failure can be disastrous, mainly the underwater joint between the bottom plank and the rest of the boat, where my weight can be concentrated near a portion of the joint resulting in failure onset. It is more of a factor in a lightweight boat such as mine where the ply planks are flexible allowing force to concentrate on a small portion of the joint.

Interestingly I do not use glues in my canoes. That is because the canoe does not permit me to stand and move around, I stay on the seat which is designed to distribute my weight into the boat's structure.

[ancient kayaker]

Things are picking up again with me and mine. The hull is being painted and varnished prior to launching as a rowboat. A few more coats to go then I'll post some more pics. Looking good!

The comments on use of screws has set me thinking. Looking at stress in the vertical direction only, using chine logs instead of epoxy and tape introduces a joint between a stiff member (chine log attached to sheer plank) and a flexible member (bottom plank). A load applied to the bottom plank then results in a peeling force applied to the joint, potentially causing veneer failure. A similar stress appears in the sheer plank but is dissipated longitudinally along the chine log because of the greater curvature of the sheer plank. With the taped joint the stress is dissipated because of the flexibility of the joint which equals or exceeds the flexibility of the sheer and bottom planks.

The chine log joint can therefore be improved by tapering the edges of the chine log. This is something I have been trying out, but for weight reduction rather than strength; see picture in post #54 on gluing triangular battens. I need to do some tests on this: theoretically the chine log should have a quarter-circular section machined from it, not easy to do or glue afterwards, but it could be routed in after gluing. The screws achieve a similar result however, and much easier.

[ancient kayaker]

As I was finishing the hull I realised I do know much about rigging sailboat. The mast will be free-standing and I have information on the snotter for the sprit. I will not bother (initially) with a haliard/top haul (?) as the first sail will be small enough to put onto the mast before fitting the mast.

However, I imagine that I will need a place to tie-off the sheet at the stern, or is it appropriate on such a small boat to just hold the sheet? I don't think the sheet will need any blocks, I can't see a sail on a 10 ft boat generating enough thrust to justify the added complexity.

I was thinking a horn cleat or jamb cleat on each sheer just ahead of the transom would be convenient to have and allow me to concentrate on the tiller.

[PAR]

A simple whip tackle is what you want Terry. A single block mounted on the boom and two cleats, preferably quick release, like a cam or jamb style. Each end will fall to the rail (or transom) where it's cleated.

In use, this doubled ended sheeting arrangement is handy. You'll have one end in your hand most of the time, which depends on the tack you're on at that time. This offers a 2:1 leverage on the sail, so you don't wear out holding the sheet. In use to tack; you'll bring the bow up into the wind, cleat the sheet as you switch sides, then grab the new windward sheet during the crossover.

You could get fancy with a swivel block and cam cleat on the stern (see attached), but on a small boat like Dace, I'm not sure it's worth it. Shown is a home made setup, an 1/8" plate of T-6 aluminum, bent as needed. I used a wooden "riser" to lift up the cam cleat to a better location after trials. An eye strap holds the block to the plate, with a genoa car spring between to make it stand up. A disk of HDPE permits it to rotate, friction free. This is through bolted to a piece of angle stock, which holds the whole assembly to the transom.

[sharpii2]

As I was finishing the hull I realised I do know much about rigging sailboat. The mast will be free-standing and I have information on the snotter for the sprit. I will not bother (initially) with a haliard/top haul (?) as the first sail will be small enough to put onto the mast before fitting the mast.

However, I imagine that I will need a place to tie-off the sheet at the stern, or is it appropriate on such a small boat to just hold the sheet? I don't think the sheet will need any blocks, I can't see a sail on a 10 ft boat generating enough thrust to justify the added complexity.

I was thinking a horn cleat or jamb cleat on each sheer just ahead of the transom would be convenient to have and allow me to concentrate on the tiller.

Sheeting for a rig as small as yours can be quite straight forward.

A line can come straight down from the end of the sprit boom to a pully at the transom, near the rudder.

A jamb cleat can then be put on the end of the tiller to hold the sheet temporarily.

The pully could be put on the top of the rudder itself, if you like, but the rudder will then need some kind of hold down device to keep the sheet tension (pulling mostly up, when sheeted in) from pulling the rudder out of its gudeons.

[ancient kayaker]

Thanks for the inputs guys.

I put the boat in my pool today so I could evaluate the rowing position. It is fine; I can probably raise the seat a little, it is only 8" (20 cm) presently. The oars clear my knees on the recovery stroke, especially if I brace my knees against the bouyancy tank - which is natural for a kayaker.

It may be difficult to keep a straight line and will probably benefit from a small skeg, as Par noted, for rowing.

It feels stable enough to stand up, although it is so light it is like standing on a skateboard; but I will get used to that. Another good case for water ballast perhaps? I will be able to ship the rudder and the mast while on the water, and with me on the side seat it still has both chines in the water. It feels very secrure, more than I expected from this tiny boat.

Unfortunately it looks like it will not get a proper launch this year as there is a problem with the paint. My local hardware store messed up twice. I selected a can of outdoor base paint for tinting, there are 2 types and I got the wrong one so the guy changed it. After I put the first coat on I realised the fool had given me indoor paint! I had it changed to outdoor paint and applied another coat. That was 4 days ago and the damned stuff is still soft and rubbiing of on my clothes and hands. Obviously a bad batch, so I will have to scrape ands sand down to the primer and start over. Next time I will go somewhere else for the paint!

[nukisen]

Damn I really wanted to see this one in the water!!

How about to place a tin of paint above his door before closing time. Then it will be only him to pass the door to go home. :P

Nice to hear that the projekt seems to be good!
My little projekt regarding sails in disc is now ready and now I have decided to put ordinary sails and maybe take a little cooling fan engine from a car and make a motor sailer. Must be one of the smallest of its kind.

Hve a nice day, and good luck with the boat Ancient.

[PAR]

She should be a fairly stable platform Terry. Of course you'll want to be aware of your movements, but you'll get use to her motion (which will be pretty quick). How much chine was immersed?

[bistros]

Thanks for the inputs guys.

I put the boat in my pool today so I could evaluate the rowing position. It is fine; I can probably raise the seat a little, it is only 8" (20 cm) presently. The oars clear my knees on the recovery stroke, especially if I brace my knees against the bouyancy tank - which is natural for a kayaker.

It may be difficult to keep a straight line and will probably benefit from a small skeg, as Par noted, for rowing.

It feels stable enough to stand up, although it is so light it is like standing on a skateboard; but I will get used to that. Another good case for water ballast perhaps? I will be able to ship the rudder and the mast while on the water, and with me on the side seat it still has both chines in the water. It feels very secrure, more than I expected from this tiny boat.

Unfortunately it looks like it will not get a proper launch this year as there is a problem with the paint. My local hardware store messed up twice. I selected a can of outdoor base paint for tinting, there are 2 types and I got the wrong one so the guy changed it. After I put the first coat on I realised the fool had given me indoor paint! I had it changed to outdoor paint and applied another coat. That was 4 days ago and the damned stuff is still soft and rubbiing of on my clothes and hands. Obviously a bad batch, so I will have to scrape ands sand down to the primer and start over. Next time I will go somewhere else for the paint!

Terry:

I've been going through paint issues as well. You can read about my adventures on the blog I told you about. Home Depot in Barrie is probably worth a trip - the CIL Alykd exterior paint is what I'm using now with good results. Hard, sands well and the semi-gloss finish is nice. It works quite well with roll & tip technique. There's pictures of progress on the blog.

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

She should be a fairly stable platform Terry. Of course you'll want to be aware of your movements, but you'll get use to her motion (which will be pretty quick). How much chine was immersed?

When the boat was in the pool, according to my wife the stem foot and transom bottom were both clear of the water, so she is probably floating close to her design marks. Mo pics yet, although my wife can handle a film camera fine she can't work the digital one with its LED screen, for some reason.

I'll be able to estimate better when I can see a picture. I plan to launch in the local pond Wednesday, weather permitting, and will have a camera-savvy buddy ashore

I have made at least a start on the sailing rig. The hull is still is not fully finished, I want to rub down the varnish and paint with wet and dry and apply another coat to get a better finish. She is getting some scuff marks, when I know where the abrasion areas are I will add some oak strips to take the worst of the punishment she will get in use; they will go on after the finish coat. Despite not being in her Sunday best yet, she is getting compliments already.

[nukisen]

Nice to hear that the projekt proceeds!
As far as I could see she is looking very nice. :p

greetings!
Jan Eliasson

[ancient kayaker]

Yeah, launch is still set for tomorrow (play jaws theme). I am working on the daggerboard and rudder.

(Added Wednesday: of course that was posted on Tuesday based on the weather forecast, which has changed to rain forever, so I hope nobody's holding their breath!)

[PAR]

Damn it . . .

[nukisen]

Pfhui! *sound from Jan Eliasson takin in some new air before he fades out.
:)

[ancient kayaker]

Monday is next dry day forecast and maybe launch day but the forecasting record isn't very good. In the meantime, the rudder and tiller are ready for finishing. I glued up the blank from the daggerboard, waiting for a buddy to plane it down to thickness. Still wondering how to tackle the mast; have been patiently drying off some fairly decent spruce for weeks.

[Doug Lord]

Monday is next dry day forecast and maybe launch day but the forecasting record isn't very good. In the meantime, the rudder and tiller are ready for finishing. I glued up the blank from the daggerboard, waiting for a buddy to plane it down to thickness. Still wondering how to tackle the mast; have been patiently drying off some fairly decent spruce for weeks.
=================
Terry, you've got to cut this out the suspense is killing me! You've built it well,you've got a great designer -it's going to be a blast! Good Luck! I'll get with my cousin about the weather....

[ancient kayaker]

You have a cousin who can control the weather?

Seriously, I'm sorry about the suspense; this is more like a cheap spy novel or soap opera than I intended! We have had surely the worst summer for many decades, the temperature has hardly hit the average throughout the entire season and the rain never seems to quit. September was OK up to the last week, but I got delayed by the soft paint problem, by the time it hardened the rain resumed where it left off.

[bistros]

You have a cousin who can control the weather?

Seriously, I'm sorry about the suspense; this is more like a cheap spy novel or soap opera than I intended! We have had surely the worst summer for many decades, the temperature has hardly hit the average throughout the entire season and the rain never seems to quit. September was OK up to the last week, but I got delayed by the soft paint problem, by the time it hardened the rain resumed where it left off.

ITS A BOAT! It won't disintegrate if water touches it. I'm winterizing my pool this weekend before it starts to freeze, and if you don't baptize it soon, you'll be adding steel runners to the chines and setting up for "hard" water.

Now that we're in October, you can't count on much great weather till May. Even if the sun is shining, the water isn't going to be bikini-friendly, and I doubt you plan testing capsize recovery any time soon, so why not just take the plunge?

IIRC, the Microsail website was designed and maintained by a company from a rural residential location halfway between Ayton and Mount Forest, Ontario. I'd hazard a guess that Doug's cousin runs that company. Perhaps they plan on competing with Bill Gates in regards to his recently announced plans to control the weather.

--
Bill

[Doug Lord]

You have a cousin who can control the weather?



==================
Oh, Lord.....

[ancient kayaker]

Oh, yeah!

One of my tame thunderstorms is rumbling away outside, I hope it doesn't nail the hydro line before I've finished. Actually, my neighbours are starting to ask if I could increase the size of my boat to 300 x 50 x 30 - that's in cubits in case you haven't had your coffee yet. That's a size increase of about 40 times. I'm wondering where I can get marine ply in 6" and 10" thickness. Say around 5500 sheets. You may notice ply getting hard to find for a while ...

The latest weather forecast has showers until Thursday! Maybe I should just settle for getting myself as wet as the boat!

[ancient kayaker]

Just to prove I haven't been totally idle during the rainy season here are some pics of my efforts at building the mast. The mainmast is gluing up and the top mast is ready for gluing. Most of you guys have seen this all before but these pics will show how I did it for those who are interested. The masts are hollow.

Pic 1 shows cutting the staves for the topmast from a plank of pine: I used spruce for the mainmast earlier but it is easier to get clear pine here. I use a simple handheld circular saw with a finish cut framing blade which leaves an almost perfect surface; the saw has a zero clearance ply baseplate and is used with an extra long guide extending fore and aft of the baseplate so the blade is straight at the beginning and end of the cut. No trimming needed!

In pic 2 the 8 staves have been bevelled at 22.5 deg on both edges (I did not use the birdsmouth joint for thess masts) and are ready for taping. For the mainmast the bevels were cut with a small handheld router before they were cut from the plank but that required too much handling and moving of the plank. So for the top mast, which has a smaller diameter to fit inside (I hope) the mainmast, I cut the staves from the plank first then ran them through a table router; faster and better, but about 8 inches (20 cm) is wasted at each end because the stave only runs through cleanly when guided on both sides of the router bit.

In pic 3 the staves have been placed on strips of duct tape ready for rolling. The tapes overlap one edge so they can be wrapped over the last seam after rolling, and trimmed at the other edge as I found out during the dry run that any excess here gets in the way.

Pic 4 is a dry run to test out the method for building hollow masts and check to see if cable ties would work at tightening up the roll while the glue sets. The tape lines up the pairs of staves along each seam nicely, and the ties do the same if they are tight enough. The trick for tightening the cable ties is to feed the tie tail through a hole in a small piece of ply, then it can be grabbed with a pair of pointed jaw pliers and levered really tight. Just as good as the proper tool, which I spent hours looking for - nobody seems to carry these gadgets these days, I really missed the one I had years ago in my apprentice days ... OK, it has been a half-century ...

In pic 5 the mainmast is glued up. The pine staves for the topmast stayed straight but while I was cutting the spruce staves for the mainmast they twisted all over the place. After several weeks just sitting there they mostly straightened up again; a couple had to be cut and scarfed (scarved?) to get rid of a bend. Even though there were slight curves in several of the staves the resulting mast is dead straight.

The first mast took about 4 hours, about half that for the second.

[nukisen]

Thanks a lot for this Ancient!
As a newbie this was very good explaining in "howto" for me. And I just love it!
Maybe some day I will have a great benefit out of this.
Everything you do, you are sharing and I am curious about everything you do.

Hope the weather will be with you soon.
Kind Regards
Jan Eliasson

[PAR]

Okay, it's Monday, did you get a chance to splash her?

[ancient kayaker]

Despite the discouraging forecast it has been quite pleasant this morning. Unfortunately my phtographer is unavailable! Homever, masts, sprits and other hardware are rolling out of the workshop and piling up waiting for finishing so it's not all bad news. At this rate I might actually sail her this year after all.

[ancient kayaker]

I made this profiling jig to shape the daggerboard, using a router. I put a short piece of daggerboard blank in to show how it is used - the glue was still setting on the real daggerboard.

I'll let you know how it works out. I will just feed the blank through the jig from one side a half-inch as shown and run the router over the ply form. To do the reverse side I will attach spacer strips along the edges using carpet tape.

I realized after it might have been better to have two ply forms but I think it will be OK as is.

The masts turned out great. I have also made the hollow sprit booms; more pics when they are cleaned up and varnished. I am going to make up a temporary sail using tarp; there will be several types as I want to see which works best before I have a professional make a proper one for the boat.

[ancient kayaker]

The profiling jig worked reasonably well but was slower than I expected, about an hour a side. Mostly because my router bit was too small and too blunt! Definetely would have been better with 2 guides to keep the router level, with the bit running between, but I think it is a good idea overall. Next time I carve me a foil* this is the way I will go.

* see http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/articulated-sailboat-24598.html

[ancient kayaker]

Here's the story so far on the masts and other sailing rig kit parts.

Pic 1 shows my circular saw with ply soleplate and extended guide, for cutting the staves.

Pic 2 shows the 8 staves with 22.5 deg bevelled edges laid down on strips of duct tape for rolling.

Pic 3 shows the mast glued and rolled up; the tape did a good job of bringing the staves together tightly and aligning the edges but the staves opened up between tape strips so I added cable clamps.

Pic 4 shows one of the hollow wishbone sprit booms gluing up. They look nice; they seemed a bit heavier than I expected but are only 1.1 kg (2.5 lb) per.

ps: Oops, showed some of those pics earlier - sorry about that. They say with age the memory is the 2nd thing to go!

[Doug Lord]

Isn't there a picture or two missing? Huh?

[ancient kayaker]

I've stopped talking about launch day; I suspect the real weather man is monitoring this site ...

[Doug Lord]

I'm disappointed in my cousin-sorry about that.....

[ancient kayaker]

At last, a camera, some wet water and the boat all arrived together for official launch day. I thank you all for your patience, or thinly veiled impatience as the case may be.

Dace is a delight to row. i didn't know rowing could be this easy. My only previous experience of rowing is rental row boat, waterlogged and clumsy things, so dace is a revelation. But I will still prefer a paddling a kayak or canoe to rowing, nice to be able to see where I am going. I nearly sank a bridge today.

Dace turns on a dime, 2 flicks of an oar and she is ready to go back over her own tracks. She moves very easily, no effort at all, and seems quite quick. I was handicapped because I forgot to take the stool so I was balancing on a pile of stuff found in the back of the van. I also had the oars in the wrong (2-up) position, should have been about foot further aft for one up, so the bows down a little.

Unfortunately the launch spot was not very good for photography; hopefully we can do better when the "sail launch" happens.

[bistros]

At last, a camera, some wet water and the boat all arrived together for official launch day. I thank you all for your patience, or thinly veiled impatience as the case may be.

Dace is a delight to row. i didn't know rowing could be this easy. My only previous experience of rowing is rental row boat, waterlogged and clumsy things, so dace is a revelation. But I will still prefer a paddling a kayak or canoe to rowing, nice to be able to see where I am going. I nearly sank a bridge today.

Dace turns on a dime, 2 flicks of an oar and she is ready to go back over her own tracks. She moves very easily, no effort at all, and seems quite quick. I was handicapped because I forgot to take the stool so I was balancing on a pile of stuff found in the back of the van. I also had the oars in the wrong (2-up) position, should have been about foot further aft for one up, so the bows down a little.

Unfortunately the launch spot was not very good for photography; hopefully we can do better when the "sail launch" happens.

Looks great - and from what I can see right on her lines.

How was the rowing with the flush mount oarlocks? Was there any problem on recovery with the oars banging on the decks?

--
Bill

[Doug Lord]

Fantastic! Congratulations! Looks real good,Terry.

[ancient kayaker]

...How was the rowing with the flush mount oarlocks? Was there any problem on recovery with the oars banging on the decks?

No problem at all with the oars hitting the decks. The 'locks aren't actually flush, they fit on the small riser blocks that can be seen on the side decks in the first pic.

My sitting position was a little too close to the oarlocks when the pics were taken but on the way back to shore I moved them to the rear (1 up) position and was able to stretch out more comfortably. I think the oars could benefit from being a few inches longer as I tended to have the blades too shallow, but I didn't catch any crabs but I noticed separation behind the blades; they were sucking down air I assume. A fairly rapid stroke rate with a short stroke and very little force seems to work best.

Now I know things work I will restyle those clunky-looking oarlock risers to a nicer shape with some curves. I might rotate the blades so the blades are angled from the vertical by a few degrees, to get more bite, although that will make them handed.

Also I can now get on with making a proper seat, resting on the side decks rather than sitting on the bottom. Hmmm ... I have some nice basket withies, maybe a nice woven seat ...

Also I will need a seat for the commodore when she deigns to join me, but that will be when the boat gets her sails. Her nibs is definitely a fair-weather sailor so it can wait until next season. I haven't totally given up on sailing Dace this year, not much more to be done actually as the mast, daggerboard, rudder and tiller are all ready for finishing.

The missus did the photography, although she didn't like using the digital camera. She admired my rowing so much she gave me a nice cofee mug. It has "Galley Slave" written on it. That has kind of an ominous ring to it, now I see it written down ...

Afterthought: she is easy to launch. When she is at the ramp I can push down on the foredeck to raise the stern and swing it out over the water, then I recover the wheel and hop in over the foredeck. She literally launches herself, as I walk aft the bow lifts off the ramp and my momentum carries her clear of the shore. Nothing crude like shoving off; by the time I was seated and dipped the oars she was several lengths clear of the shore. Small scratches on the bottom are telling me where the hull needs protection; I will add several small oak blocks to take care of that after she gets her final coat of paint. Work in progress ...

[nukisen]

TADATADATADAAAAAA!
Congratulation!!!!! A lot.
Looks really nice. Haha
As far as i can see this boat will be an awsome sailboat. With the sailor placed at the right position, the boat will be perfekly balanced longitudinal.

I become really really happy when i saw this!
I´m not from Turkey but anyway I can dance.
Kind Regards!
Jan Eliasson

[souljour2000]

nice job Ancient...looking good!

[ancient kayaker]

Thank you all! The transition from rowboat to sailboat is close; the masts, sprit booms, daggerboard, rudder and tiller are all complete and being varnished. I have a camera person lined up for the photos and I am keeping an eye on the weather for another "sea trial" -lake trial doesn't have the proper sound to it ...

[ancient kayaker]

Time to post some more pix. I have been discovering just how much I don’t know about sail making. When I understand it all, I will publish the definitive book on why you should go to a sail maker!

Actually, the first tarp sail wasn’t too bad, for a first try. It needs to revisit the tailor and those too-long-in-the-package-waiting -for-me-to-get-aroun-to-cutting-it-out creases really advertise the fact that I am too cheap to buy proper fabric.

The bat-sail * image exposes the fatal flaw of my idea for doubling the sail are for downwind sailing. The sprit booms stop it from opening fully. I could pop the humongeous ½ inch bolt holding the two booms together at the fore end but then the booms sag off to either side. I need to tinker with this but I don’t think it is going to work; it needs the booms to pivot at the mast not at the snotter. If it can’t be made to work with the curved booms I will need to change to straight ones that can be tied instead of bolted together.

I put in a couple of images from the wood wacking phase of this exercise, I forgot to post them earlier. One shows the joint for the 2-piece mast, which is adjustable for length (it can grow another 10%). I did not use an internal 8-sided form at the mast ends; it would have made the fit between the 2 sections a little better but it's not far off. Net time I want to try the birds-mouth method.

The last one is the profiled (NACA0010) daggerboard. The point of being pernickety on the profile was to prove I could do it in case I need to later. It wasn’t perfect but I know how to do it right next time. because it is mainly softwood I put hardwood strips around it, and protected the TE with a thin maple dowel set into a groove. The LE has a brass stem strip. Too finicky: next time I may just do what I'm told. I think it would have been easier to continue the profile further up pst the bottom plank and cut the slot in the hull bottom to fit.

Later correction: not sure what to call the double sail idea, maybe the butterfly sail? I found an expired patent for it here http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4367688/claims.html

[nukisen]

Hahaha Yeeesssss!
You will capture a lot of downwind with this one Ancient.
:D
I just love it!
This boat will be great little sailboat.

This type of sail maybe I should try for my next projekt if you allow it.

Else I will try to have sail in the for so I can spread them in downwind.
Also I will have larger sfare even in side wind.

[ancient kayaker]

Well, at last the whole thing got put together and put into water. There was a nice breeze when I set off with the boat on the van to collect the camera person (my daughter). There was a dead calm by the time we got to the lake; not even enough to take the creases out of the sail!

However, you can at least see the regular sail, the weird curved sprit booms (they're out of here: good theory, bad practice), an attempt to open the double sail for downwind and me, too disgusted to even tidy up the rig, rowing back!

Most of the time the boat was ghosting along on a breeze I couldn't even feel, but for about a 20 second period the breeze could actually be felt. I got the double sail set properly and the boat accelerated to a respectable velocity. Unfortunately she was headed straight for the bank at the time and my daughter was so excited she forgot to take a picture!

You will notice by far the most significant wake is for the rowing picture, but she definitely has potential. There was a nice breeze when I got home, too.

[Doug Lord]

Congratulations-shes great!

[nukisen]

Vey very big congratulation!!!!!
What a weather to test in.
Loooks very great.

Kind regards
Janne

[bistros]

Well, at last the whole thing got put together and put into water. There was a nice breeze when I set off with the boat on the van to collect the camera person (my daughter). There was a dead calm by the time we got to the lake; not even enough to take the creases out of the sail!

However, you can at least see the regular sail, the weird curved sprit booms (they're out of here: good theory, bad practice), an attempt to open the double sail for downwind and me, too disgusted to even tidy up the rig, rowing back!

Most of the time the boat was ghosting along on a breeze I couldn't even feel, but for about a 20 second period the breeze could actually be felt. I got the double sail set properly and the boat accelerated to a respectable velocity. Unfortunately she was headed straight for the bank at the time and my daughter was so excited she forgot to take a picture!

You will notice by far the most significant wake is for the rowing picture, but she definitely has potential. There was a nice breeze when I got home, too.

That's Ontario sailing. Wind can go from a nice breeze to nothing in minutes. Bizarre moving pockets of strong wind on glassy surfaces.

The curved / split-able boom(s) don't look bad from here - it really is a quite innovative and fresh approach. I have to admit I had some real questions in my mind about how they would be implemented, but from the pictures things worked out better than I imagined.

I've sailed a bunch with a sailboard wishbone style rig and I like it very much. It takes quite a while to get tuning worked out, so I wouldn't give up quickly. Between snotter tension, outhaul, downhaul and how you handle sheeting you can completely change sail shape and effectiveness. Sailboards have the front of the wishbone very securely attached to the mast via a complex locking mechanism, and what this gains is the ability to control sail depth and mast prebend far than a loose attached "snotter" type arrangement like a sprit sail rig. The shape of the sail under tension is the critical factor in making a wishbone boom work well.

I really think a detachable bowsprit that supports an asymmetrical spinnaker would be a very nice way to augment downwind speed. The nice part about this arrangement is that your upwind sail rig doesn't pay any penalty for additional downwind speed. You can't beat simplicity.

Great to see the sailing version of Dace on the water.

--
Bill

[ancient kayaker]

... The curved / split-able boom(s) don't look bad from here - it really is a quite innovative and fresh approach ...

... I've sailed a bunch with a sailboard wishbone style rig and I like it very much ...

... Sailboards have the front of the wishbone very securely attached to the mast via a complex locking mechanism ...

... I really think a detachable bowsprit that supports an asymmetrical spinnaker would be a very nice way to augment downwind speed ... Bill

I like the appearance of the booms but they’re heavier than I intended due to their 50% ply content. At the very least I would like to rebuild them with tapered ends and no ply.

It was unfortunate that the wind was so light; much of the time I could not even feel it and there was no perceptible heel. Even when I had to hold the sail to leeward the boat managed to move at a knot or so. The extra boost from the double area generated noticeable acceleration for the brief time there was enough breeze to fill the sails.

I’m not sure the idea is all that new, it seems an obvious thing to try; perhaps there is some fatal flaw but I have to find out.

The snotter was a nuisance and will make it impossible to deal with bridges in its current form. I had thought about using a pivot to attach the booms to the mast; it’s good to know it works. I assume sailboard do not require a snotter. I could eliminate it by using a pivot on a movable band clamp around the mast; it could be adjusted to the best overall position and then fixed in place. I was going to address the bridge problem by simply lifting the mast out of its step, but brailing the saiil was harder than I expected. I may add a hinge to the mast, just above the boom pivot.

A single boom is an option, made possible with the pivot idea. The second sail would then be loose-footed. It would need some arrangement to recover it and lay it back against the mainsail after use. When deploying it downwind, I would expect the draught forward off the mainsail would fill it. If it needs to be boomed out the simplicity of the concept would be lost. The double sail is easy to handle from this small boat - not sure a spinnaker would be.

[nukisen]

Someday it will become windy!
Then you will notice that you have built one of the best smaller sailboat you have ever seen.
Very well done!

[ancient kayaker]

... one of the best smaller sailboat you have ever seen ...

Interestingly, the boat was originally designed as a yacht tender, which explains why she is so stable and rows so well, but the design is known to sail well and is very easy to build.

[PAR]

It's always reassuring when they don't flop over on their sides on launch day. Congratulations Terry.

A few notes; the silver tarps are the heaviest of all the tarps. You'll want to get the lightest you can find. I'm sure that was just one you had around the garage. Try to access her sailing abilities in winds from 5 to 10 knots. Under this wind strength and you'll just be testing you patients and over this wind strength you're sailing ability. Your attempt at a "Ljungstrom" rig is notable, don't give up quickly, but don't be surprised if you find the same things everyone else has about the rig. During setup of the booms, make them angle down at their after ends (several degrees). This will cause them to be self "vanging" which is an ideal thing on a small boat and the whole point to using a sprit boom. It also appears your mast is in the aft hole. It needs to be in the forward most hole or the helm will be "lee" on you.

[Doug Lord]

It's always reassuring when they don't flop over on their sides on launch day. Congratulations Terry.

A few notes; the silver tarps are the heaviest of all the tarps. You'll want to get the lightest you can find. I'm sure that was just one you had around the garage. Try to access her sailing abilities in winds from 5 to 10 knots. Under this wind strength and you'll just be testing you patients and over this wind strength you're sailing ability. Your attempt at a "Ljungstrom" rig is notable, don't give up quickly, but don't be surprised if you find the same things everyone else has about the rig. During setup of the booms, make them angle down at their after ends (several degrees). This will cause them to be self "vanging" which is an ideal thing on a small boat and the whole point to using a sprit boom. It also appears your mast is in the aft hole. It needs to be in the forward most hole or the helm will be "lee" on you.
------------
You deserve congratulations as well,Paul! Damn fine design!

[ancient kayaker]

... the silver tarps are the heaviest of all the tarps ...

- now you tell me! It is my own fault as I selected them for the color. I should have known they would be extra heavy-duty, as I bought them at the farmers' store. Still, one day I may appreciate having a cow-proof sail.

[Tad]

Terry....

See this patent.....http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=7A8zAAAAEBAJ&dq=bruce+king

It's a double-sided sail on twin independent booms with a rotating mast. To windward the sails fold around the mast and lie alongside each other. Off the wind the sails unfold....wing-n-wing style (as you tried) and the mast rotates taking the head forward and becoming more spinnaker shaped.

In practice it works quite well, downside is there are lots of bits to keep track of. Carbon spars keep it very light. It's just never been commercially developed.

[ancient kayaker]

Tad: I saw that one recently, and it also references this one which is even closer to my design http://www.google.com/patents?id=tbMsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The main difference is, I only propose to use it downwind. Naturally I'll experiment with it inother directions but I expect it will require large amounts of lee helm. Paul tells me my double sail is called the Ljungstrom rig.

[Raggi_Thor]

Here you see a good example of the Ljngström rig:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jM-1EKCHjJU/R6tfZVl0pRI/AAAAAAAAACI/QC3rN7iTBqQ/s1600-h/DSCF1072.JPG)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jM-1EKCHjJU/R6tfZVl0pRI/AAAAAAAAACI/QC3rN7iTBqQ/s1600-h/DSCF1072.JPG

[Raggi_Thor]

Some info here,
http://dobrakusa.blogspot.com/2006/12/rig.html

[ancient kayaker]

Thanks for the info Raggi! I wondered if it would work with a loose-footed sail, now I can see that it does, at least downwind. The simplicity of the boomless design is offset by the need to manually rotate the mast, however the mast-furling system is nice. This will give me a lot to think about during the hard-water season!

Afterthought: according to the Oxford online dictionary the term "Ljungstrom rig" describes a loose-footed sail set on a rotating mast; the double sail is an optional feature. This older thread discussed it http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/split-mainsail-has-been-tried-before-20229.html which I hadn't seen before. Search tools work much better when the correct term or name is used.

[ancient kayaker]

I was going over my building log yesterday. I can't remember if I undertook to provide building time data but here it is for those interested. For comparison, I usually complete a small canoe in a little over 30 hours fully finished. There was a bit more to this boat.

Hull construction 80 hours
Hull finishing 20 hours
Rig* 40 hours
Total 140 hours.

Times include temporary frames and jigs specific to this boat. I expected about 100 hours total when I started, but I had no idea the rig would take so long. The time-consumers in hull construction were the bulkhead, daggerboard trunk, buoyancy tanks/seats and transom, only 12% of the hull weight but 50% of the time. I don't have to have to deal with those in a canoe.

Interesting statistic: my canoes weigh about 20 lb/9 kg: that's 1.75 hours/lb for for the sailboat and the canoes.

* Rig in this context comprises everything except the hull, i.e., mast, booms, sail, rigging, daggerboard, rudder and tiller.

There was a fair amount of design time involved because I did not follow the designer's plans exactly; that time is not included. Also there were mistakes and repeated work: I excluded that where it was to fix one of my design errors and included the rest, so for a builder working from a detailed construction plan these times are honest. However, for a first-timer there would be extra time for nail-chewing before cutting expensive wood (I'm over that phase), time to build useful general purpose jigs I already had, and setting up a workshop; probably 200 hours.

Calender time was 3 months, May to Oct less about a month vacations and sick leave. Total days worked 61; Longest working day 6 hours, average hours per day only 2.3! Lazy bastard!

The total weight of the boat is 60 lb (hull) + 20 (rig -as defined above) or 80 lb, 36 kg. Construction is 4 mm okoume marine ply throughut except bottom which was 6 mm, some hardwood ply, plus cedar, oak, pine, spruce and what they call "mahogany" these days. Epoxy used on joints exposed to water or where gap-filling was needed, and Titebond III glue used for well-fitted joints elsewhere.

Hull is 10 ft/3 m LOA, mast 14 ft/4.3 m (2 piece telescopic wood), sail area is 33 sq ft/3 m2, which can be doubled for downwind. Of course, she will acquire several bigger sails to play with over the Winter. It never stops!

[Raggi_Thor]

Thanks, interesting numbers.
Would cnc precut also cut the total hours significantly?

[PAR]

I believe those figures were within the estimates we discussed at one point or another in the process, Terry. 65 square feet of sail area will be about right for this little boat, for best performance without gymnastics. 2.3 hours per day production time is very respectable as a part time project. That's over 5 hours a day actual time at the boat, including butt scratching, tool finding, cigarette smoking and fetching fresh beer breaks.

The actual panel cutting time wouldn't really affect the overall build time by a significant amount I don't suspect. CNC panels are a wonderful marketing tool and do offer class racer and one design options, but don't save much in build time. They can improve hull shape compliance considerably as well as assembly ease on a well thought out kit, at the cost of considerably more in machine cut materials and it's shipping to your location.

[ancient kayaker]

Ragnar: my best estimate, since I did not always record cutting and assembly time separately for all components, is the time spent cutting and rough shaping totalled about 32 hours. That was more than I expected.

Paul: Yes, those numbers are about right. My approach to the mast and booms was a bit more complex. The precut parts of a kit save significant time as well as reducing worry and perhaps providing a better selection of material, but I enjoy cutting the ply and lumber.