Fantail steam launches

[confused]

I have always liked steam launches. I don't know what it is that draws me to them, but it draws me to them like a peice of iron to a magnet.
Even though I have been told numorous times by my freinds "Wait untill you're older to build one," I STILL daydream about building one. :p
Well the time has come to tell the truth. I am going to build one, so don't try to stop me. I just need a useful design to fit my purpose, so I have created this thread so that I can get some helpful advice from you, (hopefully). The only thing I have to say to your objections is this: it will be 6 ft long. (yes, laugh!)
I don't know if it will be able to carry a person, and if it CAN carry a person... probably only one. I found a suitable steam engine for it, and since I have steam engine expirence (YES! I DO) it should be easy. I have a steam engine, but it is to small to power a six foot boat. So, I will give you the link for the engine I have now, and the engine I am going to get. The one I have: http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Marine-Engine-Fully-Machined-Casting-Set-2AM_W0QQitemZ140275841035QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item140275841035&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14 I have put it together and it runs perfectly. This is the engine I am going to get (sooner or later):http://cgi.ebay.com/Live-Steam-Engine-Marine-Twin-FULLY-MACHINED-Kit_W0QQitemZ270344501416QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item270344501416&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A570%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50#ebayphotohosting

[apex1]

too small, 12 will be about minimum. look here:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Steamup20.htm#FELIX

Regards
Richard

[confused]

Will that steam engine work on the 8ft one I designed?
(the link above that I posted)

[confused]

o.k, but let me get this straight. I am ONLY going to use my boat in freshwater canals. If I get the house I think that we are going to get, we will have a canal behind our house, and I could use my boat in that after it rains, It's more like a ditch though.

[apex1]

Will that steam engine work on the 8ft one I designed?
(the link above that I posted)

Maybe, has a 1/2 to 3/4, but is still just a toy! If we blow her enough pressure to do some 800W I fear we have her in parts after some minutes.
And I will not design a boiler arrangement for unsafe engines. You understand.

To your last reply: if its brackish, forget it! Even in a thunderstorm you´ll have enough salt and minerals to destroy the boiler in some hours.

A totally different idea.
Why not building a say 5 to 6´ model Launch and use your existing engine?
Could be done very lightweight, strip planked, using inexpensive carpenters glue, then sheathed with light cloth (glass epoxy). It would get you very well trained in the technics you have to use with the "real thing", is not overly expensive and does´nt take too much time to see the fruits of your sweat and tears.
Häh?

Regards
Richard

[confused]

It won't suck water from what it's floating in. Did you click on the link for the twin engine I posted?

[apex1]

It won't suck water from what it's floating in.

It will! Otherwise you have to build a self propelled watertank. Look above!

[confused]

alllllrrrigghhttt.... Dang! I have to use it in fresh water only...you still here>?

[confused]

Whats the best boatbuild material?

[rasorinc]

price wise Doug Fir clear, vertical grain or hand picked select structural Grade.
good on rot, fairly light, hold fasteners well and can be bent. Always avaiable especially in the west
go here and on left click wood pywood then click on boatbuilding wood. then hard or soft woods lots of info here.
http://www.glen-l.com/

[Steam Flyer]

I have always liked steam launches..... I am going to build one, so don't try to stop me. .... it will be 6 ft long. (yes, laugh!)
I don't know if it will be able to carry a person, and if it CAN carry a person... probably only one.

Cute engine. One benefit of the steam engine is that they are torquey for their rated horsepower. That's why they are a good match for paddlewheels.

Another thing is that boilers are heavy, my advice in designing a hull 6' LOA is to remember the basics of displacement. If you take the length of a graceful fantail off of that 6', it leaves you with an immersed body of maybe 4 1/2' which means you have to find the immersed volume to float it by using beam & depth.

A fantail hull of classic graceful proportions, at 6' LOA, will not be able to carry a person and may not be able to carry a decent-sized boiler. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news... but you can also look at it as a challenge.

Just remember that in design work, "Doing the math!" is not optional.

FB- Doug

[apex1]

Whats the best boatbuild material?

No doubt wood Epoxy.........

go here:
http://www.newfound.com/rangeley17.htm
go down the site to "construction notes" dl the .pdf file read it, notice it is possible to be done by a one armed monkey with some patience, and tools.

And thanks to Steam Flyer.........

[confused]

I agree, but I have to ask you this question. If you heat up metal once, and let it slowly cool down, but you keep heating it and slowly cooling it, then it will crack, right?

[rasorinc]

https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=475
Look thru the Glen L plans for ideas esp special purpose boats and human powered you will get tons of ideas. above is just a pretty picture with steam

[confused]

I have been to their site before. I was on it an hour ago.

[rasorinc]

Did you find answers to your wood questions

[apex1]

I agree, but I have to ask you this question. If you heat up metal once, and let it slowly cool down, but you keep heating it and slowly cooling it, then it will crack, right?

No......

[apex1]

I have been to their site before. I was on it an hour ago.

which one? did you down the .pdf ?

[confused]

What pdf? I was on the glen l site.
thanks

mike

[rasorinc]

Your bouncing from A to X and back to L up to V and back to M. yOU NEED TO READ AND STUDY and look over evything you can so you can define what you want and what help, if any, you want. Just asking questions makes members sign off. You also need to say thank you if a member takes their time to give you information. NOT just ask another question..................

[confused]

(thanks) for the advice!

[rasorinc]

so did you find answers to your wood questions?

[confused]

Yes, I did
thanks

mike

[rasorinc]

Your more than welcome, and you can find good Doug Fir and other building woods easily in the Reno area. When you are ready to buy, contact me and I will direct you to a few places. I built my first boat when I was 16. It was the Glen-L "flying Saucer" . That was back in the middle ages for you--1958

[apex1]

. That was back in the middle ages for you--1958

Ahh........:idea: thats the secret behind our patience... I´m 60.;)

[apex1]

can I lend a hand here? there might be a way

thought you need both for wanking.................
This is a very academical thread, we try to bring a member of the age of 13 to our knowledge in one week!
Come here again after finishing second grade... means in twelve years!

[rasorinc]

I love a little humor to lighten the cloudy, cold day.

[rasorinc]

After the word hand you need a question mark. Add an er after the word high

[rasorinc]

Why does your info say German free land?

[rasorinc]

There is a point where banter and humor stop.................
Your last post went beyond that POINT. I am not interested in meeting you or addressing your posts on this forum.

[confused]

has this become a drivel thread? it's supposed to be about steam launches.
No thank you

Mike

[apex1]

has this become a drivel thread? it's supposed to be about steam launches.
No thank you

Mike

You should grant us permission to grumble about uneducated nappy poopers hijacking your thread.

rasorinc............ thanks.;)

Regards
Richard

[confused]

right...

[confused]

Haha!! Fight!

[apex1]

Haha!! Fight!

Mike, do you fight with Kindergarden Kids?

[confused]

no. I fight with my enemys.

[confused]

Are you still here apex1? If so, I need to ask you a question. Now that this has become a drivel thread ( no thanks to rasorinc) I guess that I have the right to ask your advice on an engine I recently thought of. Since my dad has acquired a welder, I can do a lot of stuff that I wasn't able to do when I didn't have one. Well, I'll get to the point. If I made a cylinder, with a smaller diameter cylinder shaped peice of metal on the end that serves as a combustion chamber. It would be easier to just show you what I'm talking about. I'll give you a rough sketch :)
Thanks

[apex1]

Are you still here apex1? If so, I need to ask you a question. Now that this has become a drivel thread ( no thanks to rasorinc) I guess that I have the right to ask your advice on an engine I recently thought of. Since my dad has acquired a welder, I can do a lot of stuff that I wasn't able to do when I didn't have one. Well, I'll get to the point. If I made a cylinder, with a smaller diameter cylinder shaped peice of metal on the end that serves as a combustion chamber. It would be easier to just show you what I'm talking about. I'll give you a rough sketch :)
Thanks

Ah.. hello Mike!
First you should excuse, rasorinc was one who fought for your thread, not the one who poisoned it! If you look back some posts youll notice that there are some missing?! Deleted by Admin, due to our intervention.

Your engine describes in principle a engine we did discuss earlier. Replace #s 8 + 9 with Valves and it´ll work. But it should be a very heavy engine as her predecessors had been.
It can be done, no doubt, but my knowledge for example is not sufficient to design it !?!

Regards
Richard

[confused]

good. thanks for your advice man! I have thought for weeks now, and I have realized the only thing that I can build that is HALFWAY legal is a tractor, with that engine that I designed. I have a welder, so I can build a heavy duty metal tractor, and it would be slow and safe and burn anything. I need another answer from you though. (please! :)) I need to know how much power a 1 inch bore cylinder running on wvo put out if it is 1 and a half inches long, and had a stroke of 1 inch?
thanks! and when you say replace 7 and 8 with valves, you mean check valves or what type of valves? I think I'll replace the fuel inlet pipe with a tap valve to control the flow of fuel to the engine, so it willl be the throttle. I will also add a decompresser tap to the hot bulb.

[apex1]

good. thanks for your advice man! I have thought for weeks now, and I have realized the only thing that I can build that is HALFWAY legal is a tractor, with that engine that I designed. I have a welder, so I can build a heavy duty metal tractor, and it would be slow and safe and burn anything. I need another answer from you though. (please! :)) I need to know how much power a 1 inch bore cylinder running on wvo put out if it is 1 and a half inches long, and had a stroke of 1 inch?
maybe 1000W, when running on Mc Donalds fuel.
thanks! and when you say replace 7 and 8 with valves, you mean check valves or what type of valves? I mean inlet valves !I think I'll replace the fuel inlet pipe with a tap valve to control the flow of fuel to the engine, so it willl be the throttle. I will also add a decompresser tap to the hot bulb.
You should try to find hot bulb engine drawings through the I-net. Then just scale it down and drive your neighbour mad, by asking him to get it done.;)
Regards
Richard

[confused]

thanks again!
Ha! I'll drive my neighbor mad with the loud clanking noise made by my engine!
so, about 1.5 hp and alot of torque!

[apex1]

thanks again!
Ha! I'll drive my neighbor mad with the loud clanking noise made by my engine!
so, about 1.5 hp and alot of torque!

They´ll love it, I´m shure.:D




But Fantail Steam Launch...ähh:?:

[confused]

Yes. I will still build one as soon as I can still, but I "do'nt" have enough money yet I'm "shure", So I will focus on building my burn all liquid tractor. Ahh, yes, it will even burn water! (yes it will! just put water in the fuel tank, and the hot bulb will turn it into steam!)

[apex1]

Yes. I will still build one as soon as I can still, but I "do'nt" have enough money yet I'm "shure", So I will focus on building my burn all liquid tractor. Ahh, yes, it will even burn water! (yes it will! just put water in the fuel tank, and the hot bulb will turn it into steam!)

Ja, and in heaven is funfair............:D

[rasorinc]

Yeh And 66 Virgins Apex1

[apex1]

Yeh And 66 Virgins Apex1

and not a single one for me?

[confused]

"Ja" I think I need more bore on my cylinder to increase power. I think two inches would work! "shure", it will be harder to assemble but I "do'nt" really mind. as long as me burn all tractor works!
Ja!
not a single one for you!
mike
I get 122! you get mebbe 0.5!

[confused]

AND REMEMBER! I kinda came up with an engine that allows you to put WATER in the fuel tank and it won't screw it up! It will keep runnin'!
and it will burn ANY combustable liquid! even your BODY FAT!
good night
mike

[apex1]

Yes. I will still build one as soon as I can still, but I "do'nt" have enough money yet I'm "shure", So I will focus on building my burn all liquid tractor. Ahh, yes, it will even burn water! (yes it will! just put water in the fuel tank, and the hot bulb will turn it into steam!)

No mike the hot bulb needs the combustion of fuel to stay hot! If you just preheat it and let steam in, the expansion of the steam cools the cyl. extremely down, after one or two strokes the show would be over.
If it was so easy......

Did you send your excuse to rasorinc?

Regards
Richard

[PAR]

It sounds more and more like you need a "displacement engine" rather then a steam engine.

If you can keep a bulb (or anything) hot, then you've got the makings for a "sterling" or more correctly a displacement engine. They're very good at constant RPM use, which makes them good for stationary or full load applications.

If I lived on a geothermal vent, I'd install one driving a big generator and live off the "grid".

[confused]

ok. it could STILL run on water though, all you need is a heat source beneath the hot bulb, like a torch to keep it hot.
And what do ya mean by reputation points apex? and who the 'ell said it was a steam engine? it is a HOT BULB engine, I just modded it to burn almost anything that is liquid. Yes. Including piss. as long as it makes steam, (exshaust would make you gag!) either that, or it is a combustable fluid.
Thanks...
Mike

[confused]

here. this is a thread with a purpose.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/modified-hot-bulb-engine-26235.html#post257907

[apex1]

ok. it could STILL run on water though, all you need is a heat source beneath the hot bulb, like a torch to keep it hot.
And what do ya mean by reputation points apex? and who the 'ell said it was a steam engine? it is a HOT BULB engine, I just modded it to burn almost anything that is liquid. Yes. Including piss. as long as it makes steam, (exshaust would make you gag!) either that, or it is a combustable fluid.
Thanks...
Mike
You still cannot run such engine on water! period
To keep the bulb hot you have to invest at least 200 times the power you´ll receive, if you try to run it on water! The torch is nothing.
And I, the ´ell said its a steam engine (or what is hot water?) stop kidding here!
Reputation points are the points, that show your reputation on this board! Surprising hähh? I´m not shure if it was too early to give it to you! Yo can see them at the topright corner of every of your posts.
If you want us to give you some serious advice, you should take our answers for serious. Have some thoughts about that issue! The way you behave at present is a bit disappointing.:o

Regards
Richard
Btw. your hot bulb engine works with high energetic fuel only! That means oil! It is difficult already to keep her running on plain petrol.

[confused]

:o alright alright. I believe you know. sorry 'bout that. please let me keep my rep points...
thanks
me

[PAR]

I haven't followed this thread in entirety, but just trying to keep up, with what appears speculation and assuming engineering, but more importantly physics, scattered among some odd discussion lines.

It's very difficult to extract energy from just plane water. You can use water, after which you've expended a considerable amount of energy heating it, pressurizing it or passing a current through it, but mostly you're expending energy at a much higher rate then it's return, when you employ the water to do work, which is the key to any engine.

This said, you can get a substantial amount of energy, if you break down water into it's molecular pieces. Of course it requires energy to do this, but if the water supply is unlimited or nearly free, then you can justify the expenditure of the energy to break water down to it's elemental components. Naturally you'll need pretty clean water, considerable filtration at both ends of this type of system, but this is precisely what is being explored in the automotive industry currently.

Reputation points are easy enough to understand. Everyone starts with 10 and you earn up or down as other members feel the need to provide this feedback. It was developed a few years ago after some particularly odd and disruptive members were causing difficulties. It offers an easy to recognize "value" of each member's contributions as viewed by other members. So, if you see a post from someone who says you're "nuts" for trying something and they have 600 previous posts, but only 5 rep points, then you can pretty much figure out what that person is all about. Conversely, the same is generally true, except for me, as I send six packs of beer, to everyone I like and they give me rep points in return.

[apex1]

Conversely, the same is generally true, except for me, as I send six packs of beer, to everyone I like and they give me rep points in return.

Thanks Paul, for both, your technical and lucid explanations, as for the trick with the sixpacks (which is your favorite brand?).:D

Regards
Richard

[confused]

:D Ha! I'm too young to drink beer, but I take coke instead!

[confused]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96549
what do think about this engine? would it be good (decent) for my tractor?
I can't seem to find anyone that can make that engine I described earlier.

[apex1]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96549
what do think about this engine? would it be good (decent) for my tractor?
I can't seem to find anyone that can make that engine I described earlier.

Why not, power enough........................

[confused]

what do ya mean> "Why not, power enough................." I mean, will it have enough power to actually haul stuff, it will only have 1 forward gear, and that will be a VERY low gear to give it a lot of torque. I need to know if my tracto rcan haul at least 1/2 ton.
please an thank you :)
tractordiver

[PAR]

Those Harbor Freight engines are about as poorly built as you'll find. That one you linked to is about $150 and you might get 1,000 continuous hours out of it if you're lucky (which isn't much). Though it's rated a 6 HP, I seriously doubt it'll pull that much. It's a slow turning, long stoke upgrade from the 3.5 HP of the same family line.

I'm not sure what you what as far as an engine, but if you're going with low HP, low displacement, you'll need to spin up the little engine to have sufficient gearing room to pull what ever you're looking to pull (1,000 pounds). The other option is a bigger displacement engine with lower RPM capability, but swinging a fat torque curve.

Gearing is pretty simple to figure out, easy math. You could get a pocket watch motor to pull a half ton with enough gears, but there is a point of diminishing returns, with friction, heat build up, weight, practicality, etc.

I think you'll want a fair bit more then 6 HP, if you expect some life span out of this engine, tractor package. Harbor Freight sells a 12 or 13 HP engine for about twice the 6 HP. It's better to ask an engine to work at 60% of capacity most of the time and 90% some of the time, then ask a smaller engine to work 80% most of the time and 100% some times. Naturally the little engine will die much quicker.

I'm an ale and amber kind of guy Richard.

[apex1]

I'm an ale and amber kind of guy Richard.

Maybe... Haha.. but you are a reliable source of some background info, and you can express them much easier than I could. And that is the value Mike is looking for, I guess.
So, continue to share the burden please.
Focusing on a real task, I assume, is worth if we have a final decision wether to build a boat, a steam engine, a launch, a plane or a tractor.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

I mean, will it have enough power to actually haul stuff, it will only have 1 forward gear, and that will be a VERY low gear to give it a lot of torque. I need to know if my tracto rcan haul at least 1/2 ton.
please an thank you :)
tractordiver

Never............ and you did´nt specify it should,...! .. but PAR handled that subject already above.

[confused]

I think that I shall build a tractor. it will be cheaper, halfway legal, and safe(r) than any of the above you list. I already built a steam engine by the way :)
might be able to get my dad to let me borrow about 100 dollars. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96145

[PAR]

A small tractor is a fun build. Think about what it does, it's a work machine, so torque and the ability to pull power through different routes is important. Typical routes are hydraulic rams and PTO's for rotary, engine supplied torque. The transmission and final drive assembly (rear) are the keys to a good tractor, plus chassis strength.

[confused]

it will have a steel frame, my dad has a welder so it will be no problem to give it a steel chassis.
thanks.
How about this engine? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97964
I need to find a place where I can buy gears.
With low gearing, that engine should have no trouble pulling 1/2 a ton.

[confused]

Ok. what brand of engine would you recommend?
http://www.enginads.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/19739/cat/4

[apex1]

Ok. what brand of engine would you recommend?

I would recommend the engine already installed in an old tractor. It will be easier to find such a old artefact in the next village, than to find all the stuff you need to build a real vessel from scrap. Think about a gearbox, bell housing, axles, clutch, steering gear, tank, fuel supply, wheels, tyres, all on top of just the engine! What a task.........................:confused: :(
If I was asked to do that, I would calculate at least one year to get it done! But I have some advantage over you, I have two fully equipped shipyards disposable, one fully equipped blacksmith and metal working shop (my son), my pocket money is a bit higher amount than yours, my knowledge is at least a bit better than yours !
You got it?
Try to find such old tractor and disassemble, study, experiment, improve, and assemble again, its sheer fun (apart from dirty fingers). You will get a deeper insight in some very complex coherences by discovering how some things do actually work together, than if you get stuck in your own homebuilt without a clue why it does NOT function.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

I think I found my tractor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Vintage-farm-garden-tractor_W0QQitemZ270348410087QQcmdZViewItemQQptZOther_Vehicles_Everything_Else?hash=item270348410087&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[PAR]

Just to move the weight of that old rig, you'll need a lot more then 2.5 HP, unless you burden the engine with a 12 speed gear box, which will likely need at more then 2.5 HP just to spin it. That old tractor probably needs 5 HP, just to spin the gears in the pumpkin. Of course you'll have to haul it home from Massachusetts too. Work with what's there instead of repowering and finding yourself lacking in the umph department.

[confused]

here is a twin cylinder engine for only 90$. I got the idea looking at it.
Will someone please tell me if it will work as just a motor powered by compressed air instead of an air compresser pump?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93785
thanks,
me

[apex1]

here is a twin cylinder engine for only 90$. I got the idea looking at it.
Will someone please tell me if it will work as just a motor powered by compressed air instead of an air compresser pump?
thanks,
me

It is possible to run some compressors in a reverse mode, this one looks quite simple so it should work. But where to get the air from? Is your "gas station tyre refill hose" a very long one?
And btw what sort of shop is that? The NCO* ?

Regards
Richard
* NCO = National Crap Outlet

[confused]

Ok. NCO. haha. I get the idea, but where the 'ell am I supposed to buy stuff from?
I don't want to have to pay for shipping!
and I was thinking of putting the tank ON the vehicle
me
thanks

[confused]

all I need the tractor to REALLY pull is a small trailer, 8ft long, 4ft wide.
You think 13 hp is good?

[confused]

maybe 6 hp? the tractor I designed is failproof. it is impossible for it NOT to work.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200377914_200377914
this engine has a bigger cc than other 6 hp engines. even bigger than some 6.5hp engines!

[apex1]

all I need the tractor to REALLY pull is a small trailer, 8ft long, 4ft wide.
You think 13 hp is good?

I think you can pull such a thing with a tractor type lawn mower powered by a 4 hp Diesel.
But why are´nt you looking for a refit of a real old tractor, instead of trying to modify weak crap that could be used for a go - cart (if)?

Regards
Richard

[confused]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ISEKI-TX1210F-Compact-Diesel-Tractor_W0QQitemZ270350220010QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTractors?hash=item270350220010&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

[apex1]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ISEKI-TX1210F-Compact-Diesel-Tractor_W0QQitemZ270350220010QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTractors?hash=item270350220010&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Think you´ve got it :!: :idea: CA is a bit far to bring it to your backdoor, but you may find some similar within the next rural area, I´m shure.
And it should be easier to talk your folks into a transport adventure than into a newbuild!

Regards
Richard

[confused]

Actually, my dad thought it was a good deal, so he's going to buy it and haul it home :)! so I get to keep my money, and my dad will probably make it my job to drive it, (as a chore!) either that, or he will just LET me drive it. :p

[rasorinc]

Good, now you will have time to build a BOAT.

[apex1]

Good, now you will have time to build a BOAT.

What sort of propulsion do you recommend?:D

[confused]

Steam :) lol! I could have about say, 3 more of those engines (like the one for my birthday) and I could make a 4 cylinder in line steam engine, I know how to hook the shaft to another engine. It's pretty simple. All that's holding the shaft to the crank is a small bolt, and if I loosen that bolt and put the other shaft through the shaft hole, and tighten the bolt, then the shafts are connected. Then, I could mount them on a steel plate in line. So, voila! a steam engine powerful enough to push a 12 foot! (or as you would say, 4 meter) WAKE UP APEX1! MY TEACHER'S NOT COMIN' TODAY! ONE OF HER CHILDREN IS SICK!!! YESS!!

[confused]

Do you have a boat like your avatar? (a real one?)

[apex1]

Do you have a boat like your avatar? (a real one?)

Larger... my next one will be smaller and looking a bit like that.

[confused]

huh. Nice boat! wish I had one like it. Well, we have a BIG problem with the tractor. the bid crashed thru the roof! my dad was willing to pay up to 300$, but it is now like 550$.

[apex1]

huh. Nice boat! wish I had one like it. Well, we have a BIG problem with the tractor. the bid crashed thru the roof! my dad was willing to pay up to 300$, but it is now like 550$.

Time may bring you such a boat...who knows. Have you seen the boats in my Gallery? Click my nick.

Bad luck with the tractor, but that was just one, take it easy. There are for shure many more than this one. And some even for free.

Regards
Richard

[confused]

Will a bigger flywheel increase torque? like a 13inch 50lb flywheel on a six hp?

[apex1]

Will a bigger flywheel increase torque? like a 13inch 50lb flywheel on a six hp?

No Mike, only a gearbox with a sufficient reduction ratio (like in a tractor), can increase torque. A big flywheel on a small gas engine can make it stop working! The little engine might not be able to turn it on the first ignition.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

Okay. Thanks.
Mike

[apex1]

Okay. Thanks.
Mike

I deserved a sixpack?;)

[confused]

A Twelve Pack!

[apex1]

A Twelve Pack!

Thanks, that will buy me some rep points, if I find some corruptable chap here.:D

[rasorinc]

apex1 Will you accept a gold star on your forehead instead? Stan

[apex1]

apex1 Will you accept a gold star on your forehead instead? Stan

You mean that sort of "look here I´m the biggest A..hole under god´s sun" stuff?
I´ll think about......................

[confused]

I think I might be able to get my mom to take some pictures of the assembled steam engine today, if she doesn't forget again :)
me

[Mild Bill]

Maybe... Haha.. but you are a reliable source of some background info, and you can express them much easier than I could. And that is the value Mike is looking for, I guess.
So, continue to share the burden please.
Focusing on a real task, I assume, is worth if we have a final decision wether to build a boat, a steam engine, a launch, a plane or a tractor.

Regards
RichardMy vote is for the plane.

Don't laugh, it can be done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6NFmcnW-8
http://www.rexresearch.com/besler/beslerst.htm

The engine is at NASM:

http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/NASM/16_Bessler_Steam_Engine.jpg

[apex1]

My vote is for the plane.

Don't laugh, it can be done:


And why should we laugh? Nice info.....
although I doubt that Mike´s 200W engine will turn a prop.

[confused]

man! that thing sure could get a move on for a steam powered aircraft!
looky here: http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php?crn=0&rn=315&action=show_detail I think it might be able to power a smaller version of our steam
plane :)
Thanks
me

[confused]

----it! I looked up the wrong thing when I was looking for parts for my burn all engine! I still might be able to make it!!!
Mike

[confused]

How do you like my "avatar"?
and my signature?

[apex1]

Nice, (the improved version)
Nice Gallery too.
Signature should say "Master of the senior members"

[confused]

Thanks,

[confused]

A golden star. What tradition is that?
btw, I fixed my time zone on to where I'm at.
thanks,

[apex1]

A golden star. What tradition is that?
btw, I fixed my time zone on to where I'm at.
thanks,

Golden star? idunno
And............ you´ll brake it while fix it?..:D

[rasorinc]

I DO NOT LIKE YOUR "AVATAR". IF IT WAS A TATOO on your arm, I would assume you were a gang member and then my right hand automatically seems to slide to the the center of my lower back. Just my 2 bits.

[rasorinc]

Young man you are showing your young age. I do not brag about guns. there is no need.

[confused]

ok. ok.
sorry,

[apex1]

I DO NOT LIKE YOUR "AVATAR". IF IT WAS A TATOO on your arm, I would assume you were a gang member and then my right hand automatically seems to slide to the the center of my lower back. Just my 2 bits.

Ahhh... Stan, I´m shure it makes sense to fly such flag. Imagine you´re out there in your steamlaserhotbulb propelled floatingairplanetractor whithout such flag? Who will fear you? Unarmed naturally

[confused]

what are you talking about "steamlaserhotbulbwhatwhatwhat"
I'm just trying to decide which one to build, I am NOT going to build them all. I need a project to take on, somethiing new, a challenge, thats why I am going to build ONE of those things I have mentioned before, and when I am older, and have more money, I will take on more projects.
thanks

[confused]

Ok. I have now put a rebel flag as my avatar. I hope you don't think I'm a member of the kkk now, just because I was born in Texas and I'm white.
BTW, my dad has a rebel flag, (a small one) tatooed on his arm, and I might get one when I'm older. (JUST the rebel flag, no other tatooes!)

[rasorinc]

That flag can get you shot Young man. In most parts of this country that flag means racism not heritage. Never try to anger millions of people.

[confused]

ok. I don't live in your part of the country and I don't intend to.
As soon as I'm 18, I'm going back to Brazoria, Texas, where there's a nice big river. look it up on google maps.
thanks and by for now,

[rasorinc]

I'm sure your father knows not to take off his shirt in certain enviroments. Age gives us all more wisdom.
Why don't you comment on my postings about the 4 missing fishermen in Florida.

[apex1]

what are you talking about "steamlaserhotbulbwhatwhatwhat"

To make a joke Mike, just to make a joke. cool down
And I do´nt understand why you have choosen rasorinc to be your favorite opponent here, he´s on your side and trying to give you some proper advice.

[confused]

Alright. I agree.
thanks

[confused]

O.k lets get to buisness. I was thinking of a catamaran steam launch. what do you think? maybe about 8ft long...
thanks,

[rasorinc]

Consider making it longer. You always want to take friends out or at least mom and dad and brother or sister if any.

[PAR]

Stan is correct, in that an 8' cat would have little capacity, if it was to take advantage of the usual qualities associated with them, which I'm assuming is the reason behind the hull form choice.

If not, you'll want the bilge of a mono hull to bury that honking steam engine, boiler and fuel stores. In this regard, considering the limited power to weight ratio you'll have, a long lean hull should be selected.

[confused]

Thanks. Ok. How about a, hmmmm..... a ten ft sleek monohull? Like almost as "sleeek" as a canoe, but not so easy to tip?http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly12/index.htm

[PAR]

Sleek, suggests narrow. Anything 10' long and "sleek" will not support much weight. You need sleek for efficiency, but you have to be able to support the weight or it becomes more like a long, skinny rock.

The first thing you do is make a reasonable estimate of the weight you need to deal with. This is everything that may be on the boat at any time. Double this number and you're in the ballpark for how much you need to keep from getting wet.

An average canoe will be in the 15' - 16' range, if you want stability and sleekness you need more length or multiple hulls. Multiple hulls usually means two shafts, one in each hull.

Figure how much you want to float Mike.

[confused]

I have been thinking. the best type of boat for what I need it for would be 12 ft long, hull depth 1.5 ft, width, 3 ft, flat bottom, and flat sides. Front will be slanting upwards looking from the stern, then it stops slanting upwards at 6 in. from the top of the hull, and that six inches will be FLAT. The whole boat will be FLAT. Would that be a good boat for a steam launch? I can't think of anything else that will work.
thanks,

[confused]

(that won't break the bank)

[rasorinc]

I think your length is fine but your beam is to narrow. Remember it takes the same amount of time and money to build an ugly boat as it does a neat looking boat. You just need a flat platform for your equipment and engine but a hull you can trust out in a large lake when the wind comes up. Take a look at several (rowing boat plans) that could accept a small outboard. I say this as it could be a kicker engine or when you want to sell it, it (the hull) will have some value to others who might not want steam power. Stan

[PAR]

Again, how much "stuff" do you need to float? Do some simple math and figure out how many people (average 160 pounds), engine, tanks, plumbing, electrical, fuel, etc., you need to support. This is the basis for you calculations and hull form selection process. Double this figure, which will get you in the ball park. Divide this number by the weight of water (salt or fresh) and this is the amount of water you need to "displace", plus the weight of the materials for the boat itself of course.

Knowing a sealed box 12" x 12" x 12" square will provide roughly 62 pounds of floatation, you can calculate how may cubic feet of volume you need to float your boat. A 12' long, 3' wide box with no rocker, 90 degree sides and square ends will displace approximately 235 pounds with 2" of boat submerged in the water. If pushed down deeper to 3" immersion, then it will displace about 415 pounds. At 4" about 595 pounds. As you can see, you'll need a wee bit more boat and a fair bit more understanding of volumetric calculations. This is really simple stuff, very basic math.

[confused]

I'm only going to use my boat in freh water, or as apex says, "sweetwater".
I have decided on 14 ft by 5 ft wide.
What did you say the min. bore was to push a launch?
thanks,

[PAR]

I have no idea what you're referring to, by way of "bore to push a launch".

Assuming a 14' LWL, the best speed you can hope for in your 14' boat is about 6 MPH. Again this assumes a displacement type hull.

A typical taped seam, partial deck, moderate rocker 14' x 5' boat will weight about 250 to 350 pounds (bare hull). This would be a 3/8" bottom, 1/4" sides, 1/4" decking and internal seating, bulkheads, etc. Now calculate how much stuff you need to put in it and you can figure out how much volume you need in the hull.

[apex1]

I was calculating his steam engine (the birthday gift) a few weeks ago. And came to the result, that we would need much more bore and stroke at agiven pressure, to propel a small boat. Do not remember the figures, right now. Think was about twice the displ. minimum.
Regards
Richard

[confused]

Could one of ya give me a ballpark estimate how much weight a flatboat that is 8ft long, hull depth 1.5 ft, sides are flat, flat bottomed, (except 6ft from the stern it slants upward 1ft and stops 6 in. from the top of the hull). flat stern. Figure the hull weighs about 100, 150 lbs. width 4ft.
thanks,

[confused]

Are we "alive" (awake)?
I can't build a steam launch in Nevada. We might move to Texas by this August though. Hopefully I can earn enough money to build the launch by the time I get there.

[confused]

I have decided on the hull shape of my steam launch. The only problem now is whether I want a paddlewheeler or a propeller. If it was a sternwheeler, it could keep it's shallow draft, and float in about 4-5 inches of water no problem! ha! I could maneuver (that how it's spelt?) it where people are standing in about a little above ankle deep water if I had a sternwheel on it! no problem getting aboard, just beach it and let nobody gets wet. And now comes the problem of the whistle... I don't want a SHRILL whistle, I want a deep roaring whistle, like a steam train has... like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P0wgjpoQDw DAMN! near busts yer eardrums! I was thinking about the whistle the second train has, a little lower pitched, at about 1:43. Now that is a SWEET sound.

[apex1]

Hi Mike,
maneuver was right.
I cannot open youtube (its censored in Turkey). A deep full sound steam whistle is a huge barrel and needs a lot of steam to make a noise! And, it is a very expensive piece of metal. Say, you should calculate some 2.000 to 5.000$ if you find a bargain. (a newbuilt will cost a bit more, cos its art and science to make a sweet sounding pipe, and the artists are all dead)

Regards
Richard

[PAR]

How is it possible you've decided on a hull shape, when you don't even know how much it will weigh or how you'll propel it? Paddlewheelers are about the most inefficient design going. You need two wheels to have reasonable steering control, each independently driven. Focus on what you need, then address the frills like whistles, once the major decisions have been made.

[confused]

how much gear do you think I need par? I can't build a boat over 14 ft without breaking my bank! A 14 ft by 5 ft boat could carry at least 1000 lbs. All my steam engine stuff will weigh about 350 lbs altogether, the boiler, the engine, and the piping, safety valve...etc. And your right, paddlewheels suck. I stick with prop. How will I keep it's shallow draft though when using a prop?
thanks

[PAR]

I have no idea were you seem to come up with these figures, but you clearly need to do a good bit more studying on volumetric. A simple box, 14' long by 5' wide will have to sink at least 3.5" to have 1000 pounds (990 actually). This assumes the box doesn't weight anything.

Lets guess you can build this 14' boat at 300 pounds worth of material, then add the 350 pounds of engine, boiler, fuel reserves (yea, right), then add a crew weight of 300 pounds, not to mention related plumbing, electrical and other boat stuff you just have to have, like shafts, props, rudders, steering, controls, etc. all in the remaining 50 pounds you got left?

It's wonderful you have this desire, but there aren't any free rides. You have to do the calculations. Start with an accurate weight estimate, add crew, all the equipment, all the materials in the boat structure and anything you might carry aboard, including Pluto the well fed wonder dog. Also add in a reserve capacity for safety, then you know how big a hole in the water your contraption will make. Then you can draw up a shape that will support this, keeping in mind the safety margins you desire, the function of the boat, it's drive system, etc.

[confused]

I won't have any electronics. too expensive. just good ol' simple boat.

[apex1]

I won't have any electronics. too expensive. just good ol' simple boat.

Stop kidding mate...........................................................................who said electronics?
that was a serious and proper advice, and given for free by a pro!

[confused]

OK, why are we wasting our time arguing? Didn't we decide to have the steam engine (birthday gift) that recharges the battery for the electric motor that drives the boat? and we don't need a HUGE and heavy boiler for a direct drive steam engine. heres the boiler. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Vertical-Live-Steam-Engine_W0QQitemZ260375827846QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260375827846&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
thanks,

[confused]

What was the bore and stroke required to propel a boat with a stirling engine?
or I could use the stirling to recharge the battery.
no boiler that way. http://cgi.ebay.com/Stirling-Hot-Air-Engine-Peanut-Rider-Solar-10_W0QQitemZ130293217125QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item130293217125&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1199%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
thanks,

[apex1]

Mike the boiler above will not even start your engine under load. Toy...........
The engine shown is just as wide as the PISTON you would need.

No proper figures for sterling´s, sorry I just do´nt know.

Regards
Richard

[confused]

so if I bought that, then that's all I would need?
thanks,

[apex1]

The Sterling? No, definitely not! Just another toy, obviously!

[confused]

No! noo! I mean the boiler and engine!

[apex1]

No Mike, have a look, that toy is much smaller than yours!!!

[PAR]

Is this another example of not willing to do, or being able to make the calculations necessary to accomplish the tasks and goals desired?

You basically have two choices: follow a set of plans carefully, knowing the calculations have been preformed and success can be reasonably assumed or conversely, get sufficient enough education to perform the calculations yourself and hope you've covered enough disciplines in your education, to understand all the aspects of the finished product.

[confused]

no! wth?! and they didn't state the bore OR the stroke, and I was wondering what the hell apex meant by " The engine shown is just as wide as the PISTON you would need," or whatever!

[PAR]

The little boiler shown on EBay, is literally as small in diameter as the piston of your engine. It's a toy, intended as a conversation piece. It only stands a few inches tall.

Without calculations, you're just blowing smoke.

[confused]

I see. well, again, I found a new type of motor that can run on steam. I need YOU to tell me if it is powerful enough, if it will work and all that good stuff. I found a reversible pneumatic motor, (works on steam?) it is the 1am-nrv-39a. you will find it here: http://ptpstore.com/g_1am_air_motors.htm, it is the third one from the top of the list, and guess what? its not a toy. It says it is "4 vanes, reversible."
thanks,

[PAR]

Sweet Lord, you need to stay in school or study harder or something . . .

[confused]

very funny... I'm only in 7th grade! what do you expect me to know except my current knowledge of engines and boats? and SOME math... an you are how old? a couple of centuries?

[confused]

BTW, steam engines for me (for now, MAYBE in a few years I can afford 1) are unaffordable. An' also, it seems that the way things are going, I might not be alive to build a steam launch when I am old enough, and have enough money. yes, sounds serious, well, I can tell you that "the way things are going" is not good. it all seems to add up to the 2012 thing. And for some reason, I am not afraid of dying when 2012 finally comes. Well, if what conspiracy theorists (spelt right?) say is true, then martial law is going to be enforced. "Martial law?" Martial law literally keeps you from traveling out of state. I could go on about all this stuff, but I don't have time. it would be nice to warn you of all the coming crap, but I would probably get shot or something. It's nice to think that the coming stuff is not going to happen, well, whats the use of thinking that it is not going to happen, when it really is and there is nothing you can do about it?
thanks,

[apex1]

Do´nt worry mate, nothing will happen in 2012 (except the gas will get dearer). Some maniacs have told us the same crap if I was your age, now I´m as old as the Mountains. Remember me to plant some more trees and maybe make some more children in 2012.
Richard

[kroberts]

Mike,

Either you are having the time of your life stirring things up, or you have picked the most appropriate handle on the entire forum.

[confused]

Mike,

Either you are having the time of your life stirring things up, or you have picked the most appropriate handle on the entire forum.

What do you mean?

[kroberts]

Confused,

You bounce around from idea to idea as though you were several different people, or maybe you don't care if your project works or not. I can only think of two real reasons for your behavior: Either you are truly very confused about what you want to do, or you are deliberately trying to make everyone here jump through hoops for your entertainment.

We can and do take extra consideration for your age, but if you actually want help to do any of this stuff you need to settle down and stick to a project, and then listen to the advice given. I know several kids your age who are building their own boats or hovercraft or model planes or other motorized vehicles. They design them in some cases, but most build from plans if plans are available. Nonetheless, by the age of 14 or so many of these guys and girls are driving their boats or hovercraft on the river or their go-karts down a track. Or their remote controlled aircraft are flying around in the sky -- not ones they bought as ready-to-fly, but ones they built.

Most of us who post on this forum are employed somewhere, meaning we have limited time. Some of the people helping you appear to be fairly well qualified and may be taking time from their jobs so that they can help you. You have a wonderful opportunity to learn here, and you are wasting it. I doubt that the people helping will continue to help if you keep jumping from project to project without even trying to understand the problems involved.

Since this is a boat forum, let's stick with boats. If you want to pursue this new one, then go to the http://www.makeenginesoutofjunk.com and ask those guys.

First, what are your requirements? You mentioned some at the beginning of the thread but that has changed dramatically several times. You appear to change design or dimensions based on some arbitrary choice having nothing to do with what people are telling you. Why not go about this in an organized fashion that might get you a working boat that makes best use of your resources to achieve the goals you want to reach?

Since you are not an expert, let's let the experts help by giving them the things that really matter and letting them help you figure out what solution best fits the parameters?

How many people do you need to carry?
How much money can you spend?
Do you want to build the boat or just buy one?
What sort of speed do you want? Be realistic.


You can expand that list as much as you want, but then stick to the project unless one of those helping you says that something is unrealistic.

When somebody tells you to make a calculation, it probably means that you are the one who should make it. Either it means that you know best what you have in mind and so you are the best qualified, or they mean that you should learn something that they consider to be within your abilities.

You are at a great age to begin experimenting with real projects that can be real fun, or even launch you into a career. The way things are right now with the global economy, if you have the opportunity you should grab it, learn as much as you can from it. You could build a really neat boat that you can sit in and explore with, or you could sit in front of a computer all day dreaming about 50 things that may not even be possible.

Sorry if you think I'm being rough on you. If you think what you are doing now is entertaining, then imagine what it would be like to explore a real river on a real boat that you designed and built yourself, based on help you get here.

[apex1]

Well.................

let me sign that!

[confused]

Well, If I really want to build a boat, I need to wait. I don't like waiting. I have to wait until I move to Texas, which might be in a couple of months or years. And I need more money. And the reason I want to wait until we move to texas is, have you ever tryed hauling a 14 ft boat without a trailer on a 1700 mile long trip? and we don't have any nearby water here in las vegas. I appreciate the help that all of the people here have given me, and I try to stick with one thing. trust me, If I knew that I was going to move to texas in a couple of months, then I would talk about steam launches and steam launches only. But, unfortunately, For all I know, we could be moving to Texas when I'm 18 or 20 years old. And, by that time, I will have moved out of the house and gone to Texas by myself. And speaking of steam launches, Since piston steam engines are to expensive, I should be thinking about a simple steam turbine. I mean, I have an uncertain future, with all this talk of "the end of the world," and rising tensions between U.S and north Korea, who knows what could happen next minute or hour? Plus, ALL my life savings is $230. So unless I find some cheap building materials, then a steam launch is just a dream.

[kroberts]

So, based on that response, you have several options:

Start playing with remote controlled models. This is within your budget if you are careful.
Investigate other boat types.
Build your boat anyway, and when you move flip it upside down and tie it to the top of the truck.
Investigate a hobby that you can practice where you are, AND in Texas.


A word of advice here. Curiosity about how the world works drives education. Many kids (and unfortunately adults too) get their inspiration from the Internet or from TV shows or video games. They think that because it happens on the screen, it could happen in real life. This is not true. There are rarely movies, games or Internet sites based on entirely factual and accurate representations of reality. People who watch shows like American Chopper and similar are all getting the same "new idea" and you have thousands of small custom motorcycle shops starting up, and nobody will ever buy one. They just want to do what they saw on TV. These are not ideas, they are copycats. One chopper shop in an affluent neighborhood makes sense. Thousands of them do not. There is not enough market.

Start the other way. Find something in your world to be curious about, that you can get to by walking outside your house. Then do research using the library, your teachers, the Internet and even this forum to find out more truth about the thing you are interested in. It could be a go-kart, the trees, the rocks, the animals, the car traffic patterns or whatever. You don't have to build things to learn something profoundly useful about your world, but building things can be a lot of fun.

For me, it was go-karts. Not the type you buy and race, but the type where you find an engine, some steel to weld together and make a frame, and scrounge other parts until you have something that works. My go-kart taught me how to weld. I was about your age, and although the kart didn't turn out to be wonderful, it was mine. I designed it, I built it, and I drove it. I also broke it and fixed it when it broke, and I figured out why it broke and designed a better version. It was the first significant project I ever finished. It was much better than the store bought karts because I not only got to drive it, but I got to design it and build it, and learn everything I needed to know to do so.

If you spend a lot of time being bored, with adults trying to get you out of their way or yelling at you because you messed with their stuff, then find your project, something you are truly interested in, and then start asking questions. The difference between a pest and a prodigy is asking questions about things that really matter, and listening and following through. If you want to build a go-kart, you can do that for the $300 you have as a budget if you scrounge properly. If you need help designing it, start asking around and people will help you. They won't necessarily do it for you, but somebody will step forward and tell you where to look.

Start with something small, meaning simple. Small projects are cheaper, easier to accomplish, quicker to finish and faster to learn something from. They also give you ideas about what to try next, and give you skills you will need to complete the next, more complicated project. A catapult or trebuchet is a lot of fun, but can be destructive. Your parents might not be so enthusiastic about you going down that path if you aim at houses or people or cars, but you would learn a lot probably.

Need more money? Do people have grass down there? Start mowing lawns. Your first project is to get people to pay you for that, or for some other task you can do. The next project is to buy your own mower and learn to maintain it. Then you have to figure out how to budget your money so your mowing job pays for maintenance of the mower, plus gas, plus your hobby, plus saving a little back for when times are tough.

Everything you need to know about economics right now: Whatever amount of money you have coming in, spend less.

Are there scrap yards there? Not the kind with cars, but for scrap metals? Will they let you walk around in there? I grew up in a rural area, and the local scrap yard would let you in as long as you stayed out of the way. We found lawn mowers, snow blowers, electric motors, gas engines, anything you could imagine that someone would throw away. We brought a truck load of scrap to sell, and then we turned around and bought an engine or hydraulic cylinder for the price we would have gotten selling it as scrap. Back then, steel was 10 cents a pound. We bought a hydraulic cylinder for $21 that would have cost $1000 new, and it still WAS new. It had the original manufacturing tags on it, the plastic covers over the inlets and you could see the original milling marks. We eventually made a log splitter from it. We got the 18 hp engine there too, and the reservoir and the wheels and the I-beam and the hydraulic controls. Someone had thrown some of that stuff away simply because they didn't want it on their shelves anymore, some of it had never been used. Sometimes an engine had a dirty carburetor or needed new plugs, and they replaced the whole engine because they didn't know how to fix it. There was a pile of old lawn mowers, we could find 2 that were the same, load them up and fix the better one with parts from the other. Then take the junk one back next time.

If you start looking at the world around you, the world that you see and touch and smell, then you will never be bored. If you come here asking how to make a boat out of some engine you found in a scrap yard, someone will help you. If you ask us about go-karts, either someone will help you or they will recommend a go-kart forum. If you want to understand hydraulic pumps or carburetors, ask. Someone in your neighborhood knows, or one of your teachers knows.

Your teachers spend all their time trying to get kids to learn something, kids who aren't really interested in learning. If you come up to them and say you want to know how to build a boat or a go-kart, or something of real value, they will probably forget that they have any other students, and start following you around like a puppy.

[apex1]

Got it Mike?...................

So, lets build a..............................................................................boat?

[confused]

Yeah. I have a nearby scrap yard, but my mom won't let me go there. It's like a bout 3/5 a mile away. Next time we go on a bike ride I could go there. Sounds kinda dangerous, well one time, in the middle of the summer, me and my bro went on a bike ride and hr went to a nearby office depot to get stuff for his computer that my mom wouldn't let him get. So, I could easily go to the scrap yard. I could just "borrow" a shopping cart (people always leave them lying around our neighborhood) and use it to haul some of the stuff I need back to our house. Then, we have ANOTHER problem. Where to keep the stuff without my parents finding out. I remember 1 time we drove by the scrap yard and I saw this HUGE engine, it looked like it was in good condition. Wish I had a truck. I could've got it for like 200$ and hauled it back home. I remember my brother saying something about the scrap yard selling a hot air balloon for like $1000!

[confused]

I could get a 50 gallon drum for a boiler from the scrap yard. And since I know how to weld, and I have a welder, I could make a useable boiler. They even have OLD cars at the scrap yard. They look about as old as apex. and some tractors too.
ok apex?

[confused]

speaking of rc models, or whatever, how about I build an rc boat?
like this 1: https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=485
thank you very much,

[rasorinc]

Great idea. You'll have a ball.

[apex1]

Looks nice and would give you the skills (or at least some) you need for fullsize boat!

[kroberts]

OK, there's some more to talk about already.

First, don't work behind your parents' backs. Ever. If you do that they will be even more restrictive and they will start checking up on you when you're out with your friends. I remember going through that, and it sucks because your friends are watching, and I usually wasn't doing anything wrong anyway. There is nothing illegal or immoral about what I'm telling you to do here, and acting as though there is can bring you all sorts of trouble. Tell your parents where you will be, who you will be with and what you will be doing. Call them when there is trouble, even if you were doing something they don't like. That's extremely important, because if they know you'll call when there's trouble they will let you do a whole lot more stuff that is interesting.

A better approach is to tell them what you have in mind, and that you have a real reason to be there, a goal for which the scrap yard is a parts supply house with really cheap prices. If you say something like, "lawn mower to fix and make money with" they may ease up on the restriction. Take an adult the first few times at least, until they realize you know the dangers and are careful.

50 gallon drum: NO! If you start working with heat and pressure, work with that steam engine you showed a picture of.

RC model boat: Use the steam engine you showed the picture of, that will be adequate for an RC boat. It gives you an idea of how to build the boat, how to set up the engine and all that. You will still have things to learn when you go full sized, but an RC boat is much easier to change, cheaper to build and faster to change. And you can test it without drowning.

Better yet, once you have built a few of them, you can take an especially good one to your dad and say, "I want to build this one full sized."

Or even still better, the lawn mower you got from the scrap yard will finance all your RC models and make a big dent in the full sized boat. Your parents will be incredibly more lenient when you earn your own allowance.

You can get the radio from a broken store-bought RC toy if you can't afford a real hobbyist radio. The hobbyist ones are better, but can be very expensive for an adult with a job, let alone for a 12-year-old.

Edit:
You really shouldn't put your address or the address of anything near you on the Internet. Please delete that post. If anyone ever tries to meet with you, make sure your parents are along.

[confused]

Ok. thanks. But how am I supposed to convince my parents to go to the scrapyard? My dad will just say, "We don't need any more junk to clutter the house," or, "You'll probably just leave it lying around the yard." He says that I can get stuff like that when we "Get a bigger house," but, the problem is, when are we going to move to a bigger house? (In Texas).

[kroberts]

I sure sound like a first-class nag, don't I? I don't mean to, I apologize for that.

One more thing: If you start buying stuff, you should keep an eye toward what you intend to do with it. You mentioned a huge engine earlier. Not only would you not know what to do with it, but it would simply clutter your garage until everyone was sick of it. Buying stuff in order to have it is neat for a while, but then you're tripping all over this junk.

Think of the project before you buy the part. If you have very little idea of how to finish the project, then ignore the part until later. A lawn mower or similar is a good project and will probably be very challenging for you right now. Some other things would probably work out too, but I brought up the lawn mower as a source of income and I'll chew on that until there's no more flavor in it.

[confused]

BTW kroberts, I am 13, not 12. my 13th b-day was in February.

[apex1]

I could get a 50 gallon drum for a boiler from the scrap yard. And since I know how to weld, and I have a welder, I could make a useable boiler.
ok apex?

No Mike not ok!
I could not make a Boiler out of a 50 gallon drum, and welding steam piping is a sort of science, the average skills and knowledge of a good welder are not sufficient.

But if you are going for a RC boat, and use your engine, we´ll find a way.

And let kroberts chew on the lawnmower idea, I like that. As I like the advice and statements given so far.

Regards
Richard

[kroberts]

Mike,

My mistake on the age. I seem to recall that a year makes a big difference to folks of your age. To me, I have to stop and think when somebody asks how old I am. Since I'm thinking about it now, I'm 43.

[confused]

how come it says you a junior member?

[rasorinc]

Number of postings

[kroberts]

I only joined this forum a few days ago. I've only made 19 posts counting this one.

[confused]

here is the answer to the engine problem: http://www.greensteamengine.com/

[PAR]

Actually a 10 HP Green engine will weight a fair bit over that, depending on what materials you use. Though it'll still be light for it's output. You have to count the boiler too, as part of the weight for the engine.

You can't make a steam powered aircraft and provide enough fuel to go more then a few hundred yards at a shot.

[confused]

ok. but how much hp do I need for my steam launch? and since a 10 horse is too big, how about a 4 or 5 horse? and the boiler problem... that is the ONLY thing keeping me from building my steam launch. (well that and I have to wait until I move).

[apex1]

? http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricAircraft/ThingsWings/Besler.htm ok. but how much hp do I need?

Mike, forget it..........................
you are too much focussed on the engine part.
In steam technology, the engine is the smaller part of the game, the boiler is the issue. To propel a aircraft you would need a very complicated and expensive installation. The boiler for a classical steam launch setup is in the 10.000$ ballpark already, a boiler for the plane would be 4 times that, I reckon.

I thought we would be fine to start with a RC boat at first?

Regards
Richard

[confused]

I still am going to build the rc, I was just saying, "Hell, I could build a steam airplane if I wanted!," I am not going to, it is kind of pointless. And I can still use a green steam engine on the model boat. And I know you are from Germany, but when you are saying 10.000, it is 10(,)000. just a lil' advice from me.
thanks,

[apex1]

10,000 is ten and zero, zero, zero - but 10.000 is ten thousand in the metric world of business. And the world of business IS metric.
But I know you meant it good, thanks.

[confused]

I have started to make a boiler out of 4x4 inch cans. I already have 1 can. This is how I'm going to make it: collect 3 4 inch x 4 inch cans, cut a hole in the center of all of the cans except for one, put a pipe (for the exhaust) in the hole in both cans (it has to be the same diameter as the hole) and weld or solder it into place. after cutting a door in the bottom can, weld or solder it onto the other two cans. then, cut all the other misc. holes in the boiler (like for the whistle and water intake). also, cut a hole for the steam outlet in the boiler.

[apex1]

Mike a boiler has to cope with pressure at first, that means anything with a thin skin is useless.
The 50 gal. barrel for example will collapse at a pressure of maybe 0,3 to 0,5 bar (7 psi). So, nearly nothing that is "laying around" will meet your needs. That is our Problem.
But before we are going to solve a problem, which is not existing now, we should make clear what you definetily are going to build! Then we handle problems appearing besides our way.
Regards
Richard

[kroberts]

Thou Shalt Not Mess with Boilers.

boiler = bomb with metal shrapnel and superheated steam.

You need a LOT more math than you have before you go into that, some thermodynamics, and maybe some metallurgy before you go there. At the very least, a few years of designing your own things and making them work, and a mentor who has built steam engines professionally. The boiler is NOT simple. All the rest I could buy into, if you're careful.

If you make a boiler out of some sort of can that you found in your kitchen or your garage, then you will Hurt Real Bad when you try to use it.

[kroberts]

When I mentioned using the steam engine on your RC model boat, I intended to mean that you should take that toy kit you showed a picture of, and put that fully assembled engine on your boat.

[apex1]

Thanks mate, we know, look at my avatar. We do´nt mess.....................
Richard

[kroberts]

Richard,

I was desperately trying to NOT volunteer you. :)

[confused]

ok. I'll stay away from boilers. for now....

[confused]

how about using a glow plug engine on my model boat?

[apex1]

Richard,

I was desperately trying to NOT volunteer you. :)

Yahh, no worry, I do´nt take these things personally.:cool: And I think I know the address it was meant to.
But we are now almost 3 month or so discussing steam technique, and not everyone stepping in here has had the patience to go through the different threads and posts.

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

how about using a glow plug engine on my model boat?

Mike, why do´nt we use your engine and build a good boiler to fit that? We (you) have almost won half the race!?

[confused]

my engine? (the b-day gift) my engine is made for a 3 ft boat!

[kroberts]

Mike,

So make a 3 foot boat.

Regarding RC models, the vastly easiest thing to use is an electric motor. They are simple and powerful and you can throw it on there and concentrate on the model rather than the motor.

If you build the boat right, you should be able to start with electric and then switch out to gas or even the steam engine if you are so inclined. The steam might be a bit of a stretch since it may need separate mounting.

[confused]

no, the boat I want to build is 40". ok, I will use an electric motor.

[kroberts]

3 feet is 36 inches, 40 inches is almost the same. It might not go as fast, but it should work as long as the boat is stable enough to hold the engine and there is a place to mount it.

[apex1]

Mike your engine will propel a 4 feet boat as well, depending on the hull design, there is nearly no limit in lenght, just resistance and displacement are limited.
I am shure if you tell us which is your FINAL decision to start with, we find (or draw) a design that fits our needs. And I know you, you are not fine with just the average el. motor RC boat I assume. But a Fantail steam Launch to scale is within reach too.

[confused]

I know how many inches are in 3 feet. I'm not stupid. OK, ahhhh, lets see.... How fast would a 1/64 hp motor make that boat go? I figure the motor would weigh about 1 lb, and all the other gear & crap maybe like 5lbs I could safely say... I want to be able to carry some "cargo" on my boat. Yeah! thats it! I could put a camera on my boat (wireless). It will help improve my boating skills I guess. Then I would be able to hook the camera up to the remote, and I could have a small screen.

[kroberts]

Mike,

Try not to be so defensive. We're not calling you stupid, you are young and we are trying to help you learn. Some things you will think make a big difference and they don't, and other things you might not think make any difference and they make a big difference.

Some of us learned that sort of thing in books, and others learned it by trying it. Either way, people here are giving you advice because they have already been through that and they are trying to make your project easier.

[apex1]

Your Birthday engine has much more than 1/64 hp !!! I reckon about 200W. And that is steam power, so it will turn a big prop. If we design a appropriate hull it can be impressively fast, but not as fast as a average el. motor driven planing hull.

[confused]

Yeah, sorry 'bout that (krobert). Huh. I found out why each year matters with "Folks my age," well, you were a kid once, so you will understand what I'm saying. You know how your parents don't take you seriously when your a kid? well, the reason that every year matters to folks my age is because every year you are closer to being an adult, that is all the more your parents take you seriously. And apex, you say my motor is more than 1/64 of a hp? wow! I underestimated it!

[kroberts]

Mike,

It's not so much years but respect, and thinking for yourself rather than having everyone else do it for you. If you take people seriously, they will take you seriously. You can be funny every now and then, but if somebody who knows what you're struggling with tells you their side of it, and you don't listen, then they will give up. If you DO listen, even if you don't agree, you can respectfully disagree and debate about it.

It's terribly difficult for a teenager to respect his parents, but until you do and show it, they will treat you like a kid. You don't have to be an expert on anything, but you need to learn from what life throws your way and mold your life by that.

[confused]

Ok. thank you.

[apex1]

So, to come to the point now,
I think we are through with all the tales and phantasies..............?

What is the real project from now on???

you know I´m already 60, that means just another 45 years to live, or so. And 45 years are nearly nothing, you´ll see.

there is a doubt here I received per PM:
Wish you the best of luck in trying to get confused to concentrate on one subject. I gave up..............
My reply:
You send me a sixpack, a willing virgin, 20 rep. points, a self knitted muff, a fluorescent bobble hat IF?
http://s11b.directupload.net/file/d/1739/zjmglphh_gif.htm
So, my young friend, if I suffer the loss of that muff, I doubt I can hold my fingers warm enough to assist your project further on!

Regards
Richard

[confused]

Well, I can at least tell you how the project is going.

[apex1]

http://s11b.directupload.net/file/d/1739/zjmglphh_gif.htm


:?: :?: :?: :confused: :confused: :confused: :?: :?: :?:

[confused]

http://s11b.directupload.net/file/d/1739/zjmglphh_gif.htm


:?: :?: :?: :confused: :confused: :confused: :?: :?: :?:

What do you mean by that?
thanks,

[apex1]

What do you mean by that?
thanks,

Was´nt that clear enough?

Which project?

[confused]

OH! I see. Didn't we agree on the boat?
thanks,

[M-Sasha]

OH! I see. Didn't we agree on the boat?
thanks,

Confused, İ am shure that was not enough beef in your answer to satisfy such a man as Richard. He is waiting for a constructive and detailed plan of what you are going for. İf that person is willing to invest his time in your project. be happy, others woul pay thousands to have a five minute fone call with him.
Be a bit more engaged and not lazy, it is worth.
Good luck for your boat project
Sasha

[M-Sasha]

One week is gone and nothing happened.
I hope I did not frighten our young friend???
Sasha