Fastest classic sail yacht?

[Tevens]

what is the fastest ever classic sailing boat?

what made it so good apart from the crew?

[daiquiri]

Never say ever. ;)

[Northwester]

The J-Class yachts that raced in the Americas Cup series during the late 1920s and the 1930's might qualify.

[daiquiri]

The J-Class yachts that raced in the Americas Cup series during the late 1920s and the 1930's might qualify.

So... An 80 ft monohull displacement yacht would be fastest ever? :rolleyes:

[Guest20100203]

The J's were pigs by the end of their development, so restricted by the AC rule that they became ridiculously expensive and contrived. The same was true of the 12's, which by the end of their development, dragged such a huge hole amidship, that you could drop a tractor trailer in it.

The fastest would be the largest and youngest of the yachts considered "classic". This would have the most modern of innovations incorporated into the design and being the largest, a LWL advantage too boot.

[Steam Flyer]

The J's were pigs by the end of their development, so restricted by the AC rule that they became ridiculously expensive and contrived. The same was true of the 12's, which by the end of their development, dragged such a huge hole amidship, that you could drop a tractor trailer in it.

The fastest would be the largest and youngest of the yachts considered "classic". This would have the most modern of innovations incorporated into the design and being the largest, a LWL advantage too boot.

Seems like you contradicted yoourself here... the later J-class were "contrived" but were not Endeavor 2 and Ranger much faster than their older sisters? In the 12-Meter class racing, don't they seperate the boats by era (or design generation) because the newer boats are faster?

Kind of like your second statement, where the fastest classic yacht would be the most recent one considered "classic"?

?

BTW to get on with the original posters question... it would probably be RELIANCE (Herreshoff, 1903) since she was about the biggest & flew by far the most sail area. The biggest & fastest of those pre-rule racing yachts did 16+ on honkin' spinnaker runs.

FB- Doug

[Guest20100203]

You have to compare apples to apples. It's not reasonable to compare a big J against a 12. Being faster then previous racers of the same rule, doesn't mean they were anything but more efficient at circumventing the rules better then their predecessors. The same is true of all boats designed about a rule.

In reality a don't think any AC boat would come close to some of the early mega yacht offerings, let alone the latest that could still be deemed "classic". Don't get me wrong, I have Reliance and Ranger's lines plans on my wall, but there are larger yachts that were designed without rule restrictions, which are faster. Hell, I can go 16+ in my little dayboat, which is an indication of how much further design has advanced since 1903. With 70' yachts easily blasting through 30 knots, just imagine what a modern J could do.

[Tcubed]

Define "Classic".

I know some people with 1968 grp production boat with some long overhangs and they consider that classic.

Also "fastest"- are we talking about peak speed, best times across oceans, most consistently fast, fast in bad weather, in light winds, round the buoys or more of a quality over quantity measure such as fastest for its size, fastest given what the other requirements for that boat were........?

[DGreenwood]

Define "Classic".

I know some people with 1968 grp production boat with some long overhangs and they consider that classic.

Also "fastest"- are we talking about peak speed, best times across oceans, most consistently fast, fast in bad weather, in light winds, round the buoys or more of a quality over quantity measure such as fastest for its size, fastest given what the other requirements for that boat were........?

All good questions.

Do we include Clippers. Because over longer distances they were pretty fast.

The break point date for what you call a "classic" and what you would qualify as "speed" would very much affect the answer to that question.Would you qualify Mike Birch's multis or any of the Pen Duicks as classics? Where is the line?

[wetass]

FD?
Mehalla II (Stenbäck), Dilemma (Herreshoff)?
The Experiment (Sir Petty), Amaryllis (Herreshoff)?
And the rest of a lot of boats that were banned for being fast?
It´s quite hard to be unanimous about what is the fastest modern boat...

[daiquiri]

Hey guys, when I said "never say ever" I meant exactly what TCubed, Dgreenwood and Wetass said.

The initial question is so meaningless that it almost look like a bad joke.
- What is classic?
- What maximum length of the boat are we talking about?
- What weather conditions and sea state are we talking about?
- Monohull or multihull?

But the biggest nonsense is the use of the word "ever". Ever means from the beginning of time till ethernity. So where exactly do classic yachts settle in that time period?

It is a question that cannot have a meaningfull and univocal answer, so even what I'm typing right now is just a waste of time. :rolleyes:

[CT 249]

You have to compare apples to apples. It's not reasonable to compare a big J against a 12. Being faster then previous racers of the same rule, doesn't mean they were anything but more efficient at circumventing the rules better then their predecessors. The same is true of all boats designed about a rule.

On the other hand, for a start there's basically no racing boat designed without some rule. Secondly, those with the most open rules are sometimes the most expensive, fragile, complex and hardest to handle.

In reality a don't think any AC boat would come close to some of the early mega yacht offerings, let alone the latest that could still be deemed "classic". Don't get me wrong, I have Reliance and Ranger's lines plans on my wall, but there are larger yachts that were designed without rule restrictions, which are faster. Hell, I can go 16+ in my little dayboat, which is an indication of how much further design has advanced since 1903. With 70' yachts easily blasting through 30 knots, just imagine what a modern J could do.

The idea that all rating boats are only winners due to rule manipulation may be a big call. Take something as maligned as the IOR in its most popular days. A "faster" one tonner like the first Farrs was cheaper, roomier, easier to sail and carried less rig than the earlier Peterson etc boats. What's wrong with that?

[CT 249]

The later Js weren't pigs. Compared to the Length X Sail Area rule boats (Reliance etc) there's some evidence that they were damn quick.

I've got a copy of the story of Britannia, which went through the period from L x SA boats through to the J Class. Looking at the rating changes, modifications and performances through the years seems to indicate that the later Js were faster around a course than the Linear boats, which had much more sail and more length. For example, the early Js beat Britannia, which had 8700 ft of sail compared to their 7600, and was several feet longer. The later Js utterly dominated Britannia.

[waikikin]

Define "Classic".

Thats the key to the answer especially the second part of the Q., weather its styling / age / coolness for the time / whoever/whatever, I'm sure the likes of Lock Crowther, Jim Brown etc, etc vesssels will qualify or be contenders in enlightened times, howabout some skiffs, maybe something like Bob Millers Taipan, I see her every working day & she'll fit my definitions. Regards from Jeff.

[Steve W]

Ragtime would surely qualify as a classic(1966), topped 26knots in this years Hobart race and won her division a very speedy classic indeed, she has of course been continually upgraded but that should not disqualify her,its what you do with worthwhile raceboats.
Steve.

[Daniel Noyes]

The Winner
(Not sure if it was mentioned yet)

Monitor is the fastest classic (not fiberglass, wood/traditional construction) yacht ever 40 +- kts. in 1950
http://www.foils.org/monitor.htm

http://www.foils.org/baker.htm

really incrediable stuff!
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Daniel Noyes]

So is that it? the fastest classic yacht of all time is a American built hydrofoil? cool!
I guess a classic ice yacht would be faster but were talking soft water.
Amarillis and early catamarans, built 80 yrs. before Monitor, have been mentioned, aparently the English had a couple cats before Amarillis, any info on them?
Any Australian boats in the running?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[floridawriter]

Undoubtedly Ticonderoga won the most races for a private classic yacht.

[johnelliott24]

If you include Monitor as a yacht, I'll submit A-scows as the fastest of all around a course in a bay or on a lake.

[diwebb]

L Francis Herreschoff's Ticonderoga has to be in there somewhere. She won the Transpac several times and posted a record crossing that was unbeaten for something like thirty years. Also the schooner Atlantic's record crossing from the USA to UK which stood for almost 100 years. That said I fully agree with the comments about definition of classic and fastest ever.

[TTS]

The J's were pigs by the end of their development, so restricted by the AC rule that they became ridiculously expensive and contrived.

I will not argue the boat=speed end of it, but in the 30's Vanderbilt did quite a bit to control the escalating costs of the AC. Ranger, being the last and built at Bath Iron was the exception.

[Steve W]

Undoubtedly Ticonderoga won the most races for a private classic yacht.

I wouldnt be so sure,Ragtime is still winning races,big wins in 2008 were the LA to Tahiti race overall, Coastal classic in NZ and Sydney Hobart in division,a nice year for a 42 year old plywood boat,the original ULDB sled.
Steve.

[Earl Boebert]

The J's were pigs by the end of their development, so restricted by the AC rule that they became ridiculously expensive and contrived.

I'm must admit I'm a bit confused by this remark. Of the nine J's that were involved in the AC, 5 were designed in 1929 and only four (the two Endeavours, Rainbow, and Ranger) after that, although Yankee was heavily modified throughout her life. What developments did you have in mind that would lead Ranger to be a step backward from, say, Enterprise? Could you point out the restrictions in the Universal Rule that led to adverse type forming?

Yankee was clocked at a little over 13 kt, which doesn't seem too shabby given the sail technology of the day. Ranger was probably faster. Vanderbilt spent $700K of his own money on Ranger, about 7 mil in today's dollars, much less than the cost of his big power yacht. He re-used winches and sails from Enterprise and Rainbow, and Bath Iron Works bid the job at cost to keep their workforce together -- which was a good thing, because they were there when WWII rolled around.

Cheers,

Earl

[Ron Cook]

Would not the Swede 55 qualify as a fast classic? Steve did you build Vortex?

[Daniel Noyes]

We're seeing a difference between fastest and winningest, the J boats were sailing at 13 mph about the same time that E scows (28 ft.) were sailing at 15-18 mph
In Class racing "fast" becomes a relative term.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Gary Baigent]

These two New Zealand classic designs of the mid to late 1890's were all very fast boats, so fast that the Logan designed Sunbeam, a very early separate bulb keel yacht, was ostracized by the local fleets because it was a class killer so the boat was sold to Australia, where it was far more appreciated. The 27 foot Napier centreboard Patikis were also rocketships.
Mixed fleet racing on the Manukau was competitive and although a number of privately owned Patikis were launched to beat Maka Maili, then Ngaroma, few succeeded. Patikis were considered freakish but no other design could beat them and crowds would gather at race days to make side bets.
Patiki enthusiast A.H. McCarthy once sailed his Bob Farquhar designed 27 foot Sayonara over a measured five miles when it was timed to cover the distance in 10 minutes 58 seconds. He was adamant that in squalls Sayonara touched 40 miles per hour – a speed so great that audiences just shook their heads. McCarthy claimed the shorter and less speedy Ngaroma averaged 30 miles per hour over three miles on the Manukau. Although these claims seem excessive, even today, there was no doubt that these lightweight flatfish were exceptionally fast and decades ahead of their time. They readily planed on their after sections, something that was not generally accepted worldwide until the 1930’s when Northern Hemisphere writers came to terms with the then, radically new planing International 12’s and 14’s from Uffa Fox – who was the first to cleverly exploit dinghy rules.

[Daniel Noyes]

I have never heard of the Patikis!
very cool boats, any more photos? they look fast, though 20 mph seems more believable than 40!!??
very similar hull form to the 28' Eclass scow, the E scows are based on classes raced in the 1890's the E scow class hull is basicly a 1920's design still actively sailed today
here is video of a glasss E at close to 20mph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ex2dFFhpCw

and some photos of Massachusetts boats that have a very similar look to the Patikis.
http://www.esseximages.com/detail.aspx?ID=892
http://www.esseximages.com/detail.aspx?ID=964
http://www.esseximages.com/detail.aspx?ID=988
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[CT 249]

The last of those three pics is a Sonder, which is similar to an Idem, an 1899 Clinton Crane design. The original Idems still race today at St Regis (?) YC, and they are very much like an early scow or a Sonder boat.

http://adkguideboat.com/restorations/index.html

According to a Wooden Boat article, some years ago an E Scow went to the lake to spur interests in Es - but the E got walloped by the Idems. I tend not to believe such things unless there's proof, but the Idems do look quick in their conditions.

[Gary Baigent]

NEW ZEALAND CREWS who sailed on indigenous Patiki centreboarders dating back to the mid 1890’s, found it difficult to convince listeners of this exceptionally fast planing boat’s true performance. The design was actually too far ahead of its time for its own good and was considered by critics as a skimming fool. Like the Mullet boat the Patiki owed something to the US wide, shallow hulled Sandbagger and also to Dixon-Kemp’s rating boats. The US inspired or imported Maka Maili made a big impression on the Manukau Harbour and Ray Grant remembered his father John Grant being thought very far fetched when he tried to describe his experiences aboard this 28 foot centreboarder. John Grant first stepped aboard Maka Maili when he was 10 years old as bailer boy and was on the boat when it famously planed at a 13 knot average from Waikowhai to Onehunga Wharf. Maka Maili was the top boat there until the Logan designed 24 foot Ngaroma arrived.
Tom McKnight had a long involvement with Auckland Regatta organization and clearly remembered a 1909 Logan Patiki, the 27 foot Maroondah taking the gun ahead of formerly unbeatable A Class keeler Ariki one windy Anniversary day. But the ease in which unballasted designs won races was too much for the yachting officials of the time and bad feelings arose between the ballasted and unbalanced factions. The Auckland media took the committee view and sycophantically printed that Patikis spoiled competition; this created an angry reaction to the unballasted boat crews which resulted in them being ostracized from race clubs. The favoured classes were the heavier Mullet boats: 20 to 26 foot lengths and this left no room for the spectacular Patikis and Rater boats like Aoma, Bellbird, Mercia and Doreen.
Alf Lock’s brother Ernie was an apprentice working with Jack Logan, Arch Logan’s son. Jack became a household name in New Zealand winning over a number of years in his unbeatable, radical, scow-like 18 footer Kotuku. Ernie was aboard a Logan Rater/Patiki when it sailed three circles around the crack A Class Rainbow. The hulls of these Logans were of thin Tasmanian cedar in seam batten/carvel construction, light enough for 16 year old Ernie and Jack to lift the mid-20 foot hulls by themselves. Bailey & Lowe and also Collings & Bell built a number of Patikis to in-house designs and the former builder/designers established a standard with their One Rater Laurel when it won the first of the popular (among spectators but not club officers) Waitemata Rating boat series in 1901, beating Robert Logan’s champion Mercia.
The term patiki: (Maori for flounder or flatfish) encompassed a number of centerboard yacht sizes and types; even the Arch Logan designed M Class of the 1920’s, a heavy and wide beamed clinker boat, was called a restricted 18 foot Patiki. But it was the Napier Patiki that established the name and type – although they did not appear on the Ahuriri Lagoon until 1905 – 06. These were not local designs either but imports from Auckland, the first being the 22 foot clinker hull Edith, built by Bailey & Lowe. Prior to that arrival (Edith caused a lot of interest when the centreboarder was first seen beating at high speed across the Lagoon) the Napier fleet consisted of more pedestrian ballasted centreboarders – but popularity for the new design was immediate and soon afterwards Arch Logan’s Ngaroma was imported, then Maroondah, followed by Bailey and Lowe’s Sunray - these fast, new boats inspired locals to begin designing and building their own speedsters - so that quickly the name Patiki became established and synonymous with Napier.
The Napier Patiki had an elegant appearance with a fine bow, low freeboard, hard turning bilges and planing after sections. The design was refined and planed easily downwind under its hollow spars in a gaff rigged mainsail, boom footed jib plus a spinnaker. Sail area was large, sometimes extreme for the lightweight hull and the Patiki relied on wide beam, crew stacked to weather plus very light displacement to accelerate away from gusts and stay upright. Even though the transom rudder was shifted under hull to stop ventilation (first with Maroro in 1906) it was too small for control in hard reaching conditions; then the crew could only keep on course by constant trimming of the sails. So two rudders were fitted on some boats under each bilge to counter this problem – a practical solution and something the US lake scows of the same period also had in common. Perhaps there was knowledge of this rudder setup brought to Napier from the US or maybe it was just a local innovation. Also at the same time there was a Logan brothers’ English Rater plan which had two bilge slung rudders with one forward of the other.
Arch Logan’s son Jack obviously knew about US scows because his skimmers, the Unrestricted 18’s Komutu and Tarua were of that shape but unlike US scows, his carried one large and deep rudder for control. Logan’s boats were called skimmers in New Zealand and were considered very extreme – but Jack disagreed and said his father’s turn of the Century Patikis, Raters and scow bowed Southerly Buster, were better examples of advanced yacht design and lightweight construction. Logan One Raters gained local and international reputations so that crack examples like 1899 Mercia and later Zeelandia were exported or built from plans in Australia and South Africa. Southerly Buster was built here, travelled to Sydney, beat the top Australian boats, then went on to England.
With their large size and extreme rigs, Napier Patikis were expensive to build and maintain. Only a few survived in original condition after the Depression years and many Napier boats were damaged during the 1931 earthquake – when the Ahuriri Lagoon drained and became filled with debris. After that catastrophe the remaining examples were forced to sail in the open sea, where large Pacific rollers played havoc with their light construction. Crews related that they could see the movement of the waves rolling along the insides of the hulls – and so many Patiki backbones were broken, like the meticulously maintained Veronique which was too damaged to be repaired, and so was burnt.
Kahurangi, a 1924 Bob Farquhar design, was trailered to Wellington where it raced in the 1940 Centennial Regatta. The crew, two of whom were crippled, provided amusement to onlookers who gathered about the strange craft making comments as it was being launched. There was a complete volte face among them however when Kahurangi hoisted sail to quickly disappear out to the race course where the strange boat and funny crew thrashed the fleet, beating the top Wellington keeler by half an hour. During one squall Kahurangi was clocked at 30 miles per hour by a powerboat running alongside. Kahurangi was taken to Wellington to display Patiki performance in the vain hope that the class might become established there – but churlish locals were convinced, no matter how impressively the design performed, that Wellington wind and sea conditions would be too much for the fragile looking harbour racer from the north – they were probably correct.
Ian Cross from Auckland’s North Shore who later restored the boat commented, “One must bear in mind that these boats were very lightly constructed and though mostly 27 foot long by 9.5 feet beam - a pretty large boat - had only 3/8ths inch thick planking. When dry two men could lift the completely rigged boat up, though I would not say carry it about.” Although Cross was one of the few to to keep the Napier Patiki name alive into the mid 1950’s, unfortunately by the end of the Second World War nearly all these special boats were gone, fallen to pieces, or smashed with stones as they lay discarded along Napier and Auckland beachfronts.
Makamaili, clinker built US import, 1895 - on board Patiki Kahurangi - Logan Half Rater/Patiki - Logan 30 Linear Rater Sunbeam 1899

[Gary Baigent]

Daniel, you know about such boats - how heavy would a Sonder or an Idem weigh; could two people pick one up? I realize these are larger/longer boats than the Patikis but perhaps the Patikis were more lightly constructed. The sail area on the Idem is huge - but they are quiet lake and river designs and would just die in NZ conditions, even on the Ahuriri Lagoon - if it still existed. However what works of art are the restored Idems.
Incidentally the scows are much flatter forward than a Patiki, which has quite a fine entry, otherwise, yes, very similar in size, appearance and probably weight too.

[CT 249]

The 28' LOA/19" LWL 1 Rater Sorceress, designed by Linton Hope in 1894, was 1470lbs in displacement. She looks flatter than a Patiki AFAIK. Of course boats like Outlook were probably more radical.

I haven't got the foggiest idea about the rules the Anniversary Day regatta was sailed under on the day that Ariki was beaten, but surely there's much more to it than sycophants getting pissed off. Ariki is still around, the Patikis are long dead. Why should someone be forced to race a durable and graceful yacht like Ariki against a Patiki? The Patikis were fantastic boats, but surely they are as different as a 65' cat is to Ragtime, or like an Emmie and a foiler Moth?

We regularly hear scorn being heaped on people who want to ban boats, but the fact is that many classes DO die when people have no choice but to either get beaten or sail an expensive race machine. And frankly, doesn't it actually show a lack of imagination (as well as empathy and perhaps manners) to just show up with a stripped out race machine and win?

I could probably make a couple of simple modifications to one of my boats and trounce the national champion next time I race him (simply by switching my Int Canoe gear onto the Laser) but what in the world would it prove?

I love stuff like Magic Bus and Raters, but they DID stuff up their classes. The often-abused "conservatives" were in fact correct. Surely what we need to do is to recognise that and to try to bring the two sides together in the future.

The thing that does get to me is that time and time again, we hear the fast-boat sailors sneer and bitch at those who sail the existing boats, when in fact they have done nothing more than the equivalent of turning up to the V8 saloon races in a Formula 1. It doesn't take brains or talent and often they are extremely poor winners, and very destructive to the sport as a whole.

[Daniel Noyes]

Great points CT, I think that is the reason for the quick rise of one design racing with strict scantling rules about 1910-1920... If you are going to build to a development or measurement rule you have to be ready to race against faster boats.
the ridiculous part is when people with cruising type boats (slow) go and spend lots of money on all sorts of go fast gear like carbon sails, masts, rod rigging... If you want to compare it to car racing it's like bragging that you have the FASTEST RV-Winnebago.

Point well taken.
There was a big problem in Newengland with the Massachussetts Bay Yachting Association waterline class boats, around 1900 the boats were so light they were only good for 2-3 years of racing.
The exciting part about these boat types is that today with the judicious use of some modern materials similar hulls could be built to last a life time.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Daniel Noyes]

Gary
thanks for the great info. excelent.
I have really been interested in waterline class hulls, I recently designed and built a 18' knockabout for a customer, 12.5 ft. waterline
http://dansdories.googlepages.com/ipswichbay18
I have sailed on this boat in 15-18 mph winds the boat was planeing along at 10-12 mph

I also traveled to Ohio a few yrs. back to look at a wooden E scow for sale. The boat was built by Johnson boat works about 1950 , cedar on oak ribs with beautifull spruce framing, copper fastened, the quality of craftsmanship was incredible the boat was built to aircraft standards.
E Scows at 28' x 7' weigh in just under 1000 lbs with mast and rigging, but the hulls are good for 30-40+ yrs of sailing so I believe a Patika hull could be a little lighter, If it was around 800 I think two strong men could lift it.

The Sonder Klase was a German measurement rule with a balasted finkeel and deep blade rudder.
the other photos are of a more extreme cup racer Sewanhaka Cup these boats were the first in the US to use bildge boards and double rudders.
The most extreme boats were the Mass Bay Yacht Assoc. waterline class scows. These boats built to 15, 18 and 20' waterlines could be as long as 50 ft. on deck and carry over 5,000 sq ft of sail. The hulls were double planked cedar less than 1/2 inch thick the hulls were covered in canvas like a canoe, the deck was canvas over pine slats 1/4 inch and a mis step by a crew member could put a hole in the deck.
Mass Bay Waterline/ Qincy Cup scows
http://www.esseximages.com/images/mgeneral/J1248FlshlightSloop_xl.JPG
http://www.esseximages.com/images/mgeneral/J1171OutlookSloop_xl.JPG
Good stuff
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[Gary Baigent]

hi CT249, Anniversary Day was/is a collection of disparate classes of yachts often sailing the same course but at different times. The fact that an upstart Patiki circled Auckland's fastest and most impressive yacht, Ariki, was an impression that lasted with regatta organiser of many years, Tom McKnight. Ariki then would not be looked at as "durable and graceful" but the most advanced, unbeatable and modern yacht of the times. It was not a situation like an M Class against a foiler Moth but more like a V70 against a Formula 28 multihull, both very different but both at the high end of sailing performance - and to me an interesting result. You apparently don't see it that way. Similarly the big boat KZ1 NZ against the smaller Stars & Stripes wing rigged cat of 1988 - that was an eye opener to many people and an (albeit disgruntled) education. Again very interesting because the big boat (Goliath) was more than just impressive.
It is human nature to improve on last year's design, this will never stop; many people love one design classes, others prefer open development. This is old stuff and hardly needs be said but the fact that the one design comes from the results of earlier free thinkers, should not be forgotten. Also I think your argument that Whiting's Magic Bus stuffed up IOR is incorrect, IOR was turning ridiculously over ruled and restrictive to performance - it was a natural development that sport boats arrived to compensate. In fact, the fascination today (this after 30 years) by both conservative and open minded sailors with radical boats like Whiting's Magic Bus and Newspaper Taxi, sort of proves my point.
I also disagree with your (specious) V8/F1 analogy that it takes no brains or talent to turn up with such things, actually it requires courage and much thought to go against the grain of conservative thinking - being ostracized is not a pleasurable experience.

[CT 249]

Gary, I understand Ariki's place in the sailing scene. The way I read your post, with terms like "getting the gun", was that Ariki was racing the Patiki.

As you point out in your Vo 70 v F28 analogy, Ariki was very different from the Patiki. I agree that it was a fascinating result, but the point was that since (as you point out in your analogy) the two craft were so disparate, if the "Ariki supporters" chose to defend their type by banning the patiki then surely they had a reasonable point - these days we don't race Vo70s and Moths and F28s and A Class keelers together.

I DO see the performance as fascinating, but I don't see that those who had put enormous amounts of time, money and effort into the "establishment" craft should be severely criticised (as they often are) for defending that massive input they had made.

I love Magic Bus to death; that's why I still have the magazine article about her that I got when she was new and I was 13 years old. If I didn't love Kiwi lightweight level raters, I wouldn't have lived for 2 years aboard a 2200kg half tonner so I could afford to buy it.

All I'm saying is that the views of those who owned the heavier older boats also deserve recognition. Imagine being the poor bastard in '72 who may have scrimped and saved for years to buy a Salthouse Cav 26 or Cav 32 or similar heavy level-rater. Your dream is to own a boat that can race competitively at top level AND take your beloved family away for a few week's holiday each year AND do a Cat 1 race with a good chance of finishing.

Suddenly, along come boats (heavy and light) that are just race machines. Suddenly, you're one of those derided losers, and the dream machine you have slaved for and sacrificed for is worthless for its intended purpose.

Surely we can recognise the pain that was caused to such people, all in the name of finishing a race 5m earlier? I know people who built medium-displacement boats in the mid '70s (Kaufman 1 tons etc) with their own hands, only to have them made almost obsolete by The Red Lion etc. Surely we can understand their desire to have their beloved craft (one still owns the same home-build 37, 31 years later) kept as competitive racers rather than thrown on the scrapheap by the lightweights or race machines?

To that extent, the stripped-out race machines (whether by Elvstrom, Chance or Whiting) and their dominance DID hurt the IOR around the world.

In reply to Daniel's point about those who choose development classes, in most placed there was no alternative - it was IOR or nothing. And yes, in some ways such boats may be like racing Winnebagos - but if the owners like it, who cares?

My slowest (around a course) craft hits 25+ knots fairly easily, my fiance's first boat was a carbon Marstom Tornado - and yet when we're on our "Winnebago" the only comparative performance that we care about is how fast we go compared to other "Winnebagos". It's just like the way when you are racing a Moth, open class windsurfer or Formula cat, all you care about is how you compare to someone else in a comparable boat. Sure, in the "Winnebago" you may be doing 6 knots instead of 9; who cares, if speed was all that mattered we'd hop into the Winnebago's tender and let rip with the outboard! :-)

Enjoyment and comparative speed are what most of sailors look for, and whatever boat gives them that is surely fantastic, no matter how old-fashioned it may be. Therefore when their craft is made obsolete by a newer craft, surely we can understand that they object. All boats will become old and slow, why not try to arrange things so that they are all made competitive and valued?

The fast-boat sailors I was referring to (and I apologise for not being more specific) are those who march into a class designed and constructed by and for cruiser/racer sailors, and then knock it to pieces with a racing machine and behave unpleasantly towards those who dare to sail slower craft. You can find quite a few examples of these around. They have certainly ostracised sailors from older craft, which is particularly galling since the old-boat sailors often created the events and classes from which they have become effectively excluded.

But why should someone who buys a sportboat or bay cat be as derogatory towards a Farr 7500, Cav 32, Peterson 36, Ross 780 or Noelex 25 owner as they sometimes are? The Noelex owner, for example, wants a craft he or she can comfortably cruise and comfortably race against comparable craft. Their craft achieves that, so who gives a rodent's rectum if it's comparatively slow? Lots of off-the-beach boats, or the venerable but wonderful GBE, can knock spots off a sportsboat but that doesn't mean the sporty is crap - so why should some fast-boat sailors be so unpleasant towards slower craft? Surely development-style classes would be stronger if they made more allowance for the older boats, rather than dissing them as they often do.

Finally, with respect many of hte most important ODs have not had a huge amount of development-class input. Look at the Sunfish, Heron/Mirror/GP14, Laser, J/24, Hobie and Windsurfer. Some of them represent enormous leaps in design and imagination.

BTW, I come from a background of racing (and sometimes creating the rules for) some of the most open design classes in the world. All I'm saying is that if people love sailing their boats - whether they are Herons, or the Cav 32s that Titus beat, or Ariki, or S&S 1 tons or 53, or Peterson 36s, then their love should be respected by others and their craft should be cherished and respected, not destroyed as racing propositions.

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi Ct
I'm not sure about the rudeness of sailors, I hear you have some pretty rough skiff types down under, I think around Newengland there is'nt that much name calling, in fact I am quite polite, I smile and wave as I sail past larger and much more expensive boats.
I think there is a general disinterest among performance sailors in cruising boats... generaly cruising boat owners are quite attached to their boats and will go on and on about eletrical problems, a clogged head, potable water, eletronics etc... Are we talking about a house or sailing?
When I go out sailing I dont want to drag my bed, bathroom, kitchen and entertainment center along, there is no Ill will, I am just not interested...

back to the FASTEST boat!
Dan

[Earl Boebert]

The best work I've found on the early light-displacement boats like the Sonders is "The Small Yacht, Its Management and Handling for Racing and Sailing" by Edwin Boardman (1911). It contains lines and construction plans for Sonders and Seawanhaka scows. The first photo shows "Manchester," the winner of the Seawanhaka Cup for 1905. The second shows "Blackchin," my model Sonder made to the Vintage Marblehead rules (50" LOA, 800 sq in SA).

Cheers,

Earl

[ImogeneZ]

I really enjoy this discussion and find it fascinating reading these boards. I am not a designer but 'just a sailor', and a woman sailor at that, who is looking to liveaboard a fast sailboat from 30 to 34 feet. If I had the bucks, I'd hire a designer but alas, will have to go with used production boat.
I only wish there were more boats designed for the pure joy of flying with the wind, without concern for 'rules'.
Thanks.


You have to compare apples to apples. It's not reasonable to compare a big J against a 12. Being faster then previous racers of the same rule, doesn't mean they were anything but more efficient at circumventing the rules better then their predecessors. The same is true of all boats designed about a rule.

In reality a don't think any AC boat would come close to some of the early mega yacht offerings, let alone the latest that could still be deemed "classic". Don't get me wrong, I have Reliance and Ranger's lines plans on my wall, but there are larger yachts that were designed without rule restrictions, which are faster. Hell, I can go 16+ in my little dayboat, which is an indication of how much further design has advanced since 1903. With 70' yachts easily blasting through 30 knots, just imagine what a modern J could do.

[Gary Baigent]

Well, all very good stuff, CT, and no rational person can disagree with your diplomatic viewpoints in defense of middle-of-the-road yacht classes..... but for me the life and blood of yacht design is the stuff that is at the leading edge, the avant garde, the people at the front of the train, not those riding safely and comfortably in the middle and rear carriages. I mean if you enter this game with a "Winnebago" competing with the forefront thinkers and highly skilled practitioners, of course you're going to be blown into the weeds. My view to this approach is that you have your philosophy all screwed up. And don't whinge about the athletes ahead of you. Or churlishly pass legislation to outlaw them.
I thought we kiwis were pretty bad at slagging off at others but you aussies, from your sensitivity to counter the bullies in local fleets, sound like our sailors are exquisitely polite gentlemen by comparison. That can't be true, can it?

[Gary Baigent]

A few more images of the Napier Patiki/Rater designs - plus Jack Logan's famous scow-like Unrestricted 18 footer champion Komutu.

[Daniel Noyes]

ImogeneZ
Often times live-aboard and high performance do not go hand in hand, especially on a boat as small as 30-35'.
But if you can live with a spartan interior, like a Hereshoff interior, vs today's cruisers (everything, including the kitchen sink) you can get a better performing boat for less money.
If you are interested in new construction I think you may be surprised how reasonable the price is for a light displacement boat, often times a light (faster) boat is actually cheaper to build than a heavy (slower) boat.
This year at the Maine Boat Buliders Show I was offering a 26' light displacement "Spirit of Tradition" racer for under 24,000.
You can get a lot of boat length+preformance wise if you are willing to give up some weight.

Gary thanks for the great photos! did you get a chance to take a look at the Quincy cups scows? I'm not sure how to post photos to the forum, any hints?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[ImogeneZ]

I am surprised. I'm more than happy to be spartan with the interior. No RV mama here. But I will be living aboard. I'm not the typical demographic for sure, just want the basics below & a place to take a nap in the cockpit at anchor.
Thanks for the info.

[Gary Baigent]

Couldn't find the Wave-rider alteration image - but found these instead: Wave-rider in 1977 form (Laurie's half model) and the alterations to Davidson's Quarter Tonner Hellaby (second to Bullit in 1980) which had similar changes to Wave-rider with built up and faired rocker areas, increased ballast plus a chopped stern, here held up by Terry Cookson.
If you want Davidson's Half Tonner name to reproduce, put a hyphen in - very weird?
Daniel, yes, checked out the extreme Quincy designs, very extreme but unlike the Napier Patikis, CT, with examples (Aoma, launched around 1905) lasting up until the late 1960's, these monsters lasted only a few years.

[Navegador]

dear PAR,
You told in your thread that you have some plans of J Class Boats in your wall.
I am a new guy in this forum and I am also a RC Builder here in Brasil and looking for plans of J Class,
I am asking you if you can help me with this plans.
Thanks in advance.
Navegador - Jose Henrique

[Charles Burgess]

I'm must admit I'm a bit confused by this remark. Of the nine J's that were involved in the AC, 5 were designed in 1929 and only four (the two Endeavours, Rainbow, and Ranger) after that, although Yankee was heavily modified throughout her life. What developments did you have in mind that would lead Ranger to be a step backward from, say, Enterprise? Could you point out the restrictions in the Universal Rule that led to adverse type forming?

Yankee was clocked at a little over 13 kt, which doesn't seem too shabby given the sail technology of the day. Ranger was probably faster. Vanderbilt spent $700K of his own money on Ranger, about 7 mil in today's dollars, much less than the cost of his big power yacht. He re-used winches and sails from Enterprise and Rainbow, and Bath Iron Works bid the job at cost to keep their workforce together -- which was a good thing, because they were there when WWII rolled around.

Cheers,

Earl

Ranger still holds the America's Cup record for the fastest race - 3 hrs 7min 49sec

[Earl Boebert]

Ranger still holds the America's Cup record for the fastest race - 3 hrs 7min 49sec

Yes, I should have made myself more clear. I was talking about straight line speed, not speed around a course. The Boston and New York factions go (went) round and round about this. My best guess is that it was a tossup on the run and reach, and Ranger was clearly faster on the beat. This with Yankee in her "Giant 6 Meter" rig and extra ballast for 1937. The 13kt figure was earlier.

Cheers,

Earl