Need Help with Unique Problem

[DiningShip]

Hi everyone, new here. My name is Ross and I run a small business serving private dinner cruises on the west coast of FL. Generally we’ve been serving them aboard several 30’ sailboats of various types, but we’d (the charter company who handles the boats, and me, the food aspect of the business arrangement) would like to expand to having six people aboard every cruise with options of dishes, and doing a weekly offering. Presently we sell the boat and add food as an option, which is expensive for most costumers.

We face several challenges in this regard:
1) The boats have limited seating, and even more limited cooking and prep areas. I can do up to six people now, but they have to agree upon a single dish to make it work.
2) We face tide restrictions as these are mono-hull boats which require deep water just to get out of channel. West FL where we are is mud flats and grass land mostly.
3) No table area (unless they eat below, impossible in FL summer with a kitchen going).
4) Light sailing only 5-10 degrees pitch until dinner is done, not as exciting as we would like.
5) The captain having to adjust lines in a cockpit with people eating.

What were looking into doing is buying or more likely building a boat to suit our needs. Hence my handle of DiningShip. All evidence points to a Catamaran style ship with sailing capabilities. Most existing catamaran sailboats are built with personal comfort and long range sailing abilities. We need none of that, though a head would be a great. What my mission is, is to find some assistance in designing the hulls (there are custom fiberglass pontoon makers who can handle making those) and design a custom kitchen/dining deck for guests. I’m well outside my league as having only build a couple of kayaks. I may have funding to get this boat built, but I need to draw up some business plans with ideal prices. 3D models of anything wouldn’t hurt either. Would anyone be able to help or willing to assist on this project? Anything would be appreciated.

As a talking point, here is some design goals:

1) Comfortable entry/exit of vehicle. Presently guest cringe while climbing aboard the boats, scary for some older ones.
2) Seating for six, three to a side, with room behind to serve guests.
3) As much visibility to the outside passing water as possible.
4) A cover over dinners preferably solid with viewing to sails above.
5) Fully equipped kitchen, grill, stove and oven. Ice Boxes are fine for cooling.
6) A raised pilot house for captain, with all sail adjustments at handy location.
7) Catamaran hull with a focus on stability yet good sailing qualities with minimal draft.
8) 30’ Range.
9) Any suggestions you can offer…:idea:

Thanks!

Ross

[rasorinc]

build a cat http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6928

[robherc]

Well, honestly, I don't feel that I have nearly enough experience to design the boat that you're needing, but I can still offer a few tips that you may or may not find helpful.

1. This thread double-posted in the forum when you submitted it. Please delete one of the two threads (this one, if you don't like my comments ;) ), some people will likely not reply to your post simply due to being offended at the "forum clutter."
2. If you end up with a 30' long catamaran with 3' wide hulls, you'll have 90ft^2 of hull area, which will displace about 465lbs per inch immersed per hull (180ft^2 & 930lbs per inch immersion for both hulls). This will still give you a fairly efficient 10:1 fineness ratio, and should give you a VERY shallow draft (especially after you figure OUT the weighted keel from the monohull :cool: ); some here may well recommend a higher 12:1 or 14:1 fineness ratio for better efficiency, and I wouldn't argue with them...just wanted to show you a more solid idea of your multi-hull draft advantage.
3. I would HIGHLY recommend going with as high a beam as you can (up to about 25') without making the boat too hard to handle in your channel. The wider the cat, the lower the ANGLE of roll in waves (longer pivot arm moves the same distance with fewer degrees of travel).


...Just my $0.02, take it or leave it.

[robherc]

@rasor:

He already stated that he's at least "leaning towards" building a cat...I think he's wanting a designer to stand up and say "I'll take that project" now. You want it?

[rasorinc]

No, I only build for myself. Not looking for work

[DiningShip]

Thanks for the pretty pictures Rasorinc. Definatly not what I'm looking for. To a-typical of a dining ship. To isolated from the outside world. Might as well just mount LCD TV's next to some dining booths. Part of our current draw is to sell the experience. Did you design that boat?

RobHerc; I was hoping for a beam of between 12 to 15'. Otherwise I'm not sure it will fit in it's slip with out trouble (it is an End slip, but management might want to charge more for a larger vessel). With the mentioned size of those hulls, how high would she sit in the water? Low draft is awesome since running her up on a island would be excellent selling point. Any idea of where I could find someone willing to sketch up a hull for me? It could be very rough as it's for pricing purposes.

I saw the double post, but can't seem to find where I can delete the form. Not sure why the system did that either. Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[apex1]

Any idea of where I could find someone willing to sketch up a hull for me? It could be very rough as it's for pricing purposes.



Hello Ross,
wait until PAR steps in here, he lives in Eustis FL and I am shure he will assist you at least to sort out the crap from valuable offers, if he does´nt like to design it himself. (You are in good hands if).;)
You may search the forum meanwhile to find PAR´s Gallery, and or send him a PM.
look here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=2040
Regards
Richard

[rasorinc]

No, I did not design that but someone on the forum did. I just said build a Cat for stability. Going side to side and up and down plays havock on many inner ears and the result is not pretty. A good designer or NA could disign the topsides of a cat anyway you want it to look. Clipper look? man O war? in a couple of weeks I will post pictures of the elevations of the 30' cat I'm just starting on. Call the Coast Guard for regs on your usage. You might have to put an auto fire supression system in. Also, check what regs are on materials. Best of luck to you.
I agree with the above--Par could be a real help to you. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=158

[robherc]

DiningShip-

1. You can go with 12-15' overall beam if it's necessary to avoid higher slip-charges, but a 12' beam cat will roll little over twice as far as a 25' cat...that's the compromise you'd be making. I'm not saying you'd be better off with 12' beam or 25' beam for your exact situation, just telling you where your trade-off will be.

2. I'm working on a FreeShip sketch of the hulls to give you some displacement figures for more "real-world" hulls...I'll post the results when I get done.

3. If you reference the attached picture, you can click the "EDIT" button at the bottom of your opening post in the other thread, then click the "DELETE" button that becomes visible after that in order to delete the duplicate thread.

[DiningShip]

Tried to delete other post per instrustions and I only get Save, Go Advanced and Cancel options. No delete? This seems overly complicated, or I had too much rum for lunch.

I will Pm Suggested contact to see if he can help a bit. Nice to see someone state side that can help.

Here is another angle of this project. I'm at a loss as to powering this ship. There is a good 30 mintue ride out of this chanel before the sails can even go up. Price is always a consideration, but so is weight and lines. Would I be more apt to look at twin outboards? or maybe a single inboard hidden under the main decking? This isn't really done to often with cats, but it would be possible if we could raise a bridge in the rear of the craft to serve as a cockpit, with then engine underneath. Those volvo IPS engine set ups would be pretty expensive yet stunning! Thoughts?

[marshmat]

There are a few power options for cats; generally speaking, the captain will be much happier around the docks with a prop on each hull than with a single engine in the centre. If I were in your situation, I'd just write up a detailed description of how it will be used, and leave the powering decision in the hands of the NA.

For more inspiration: "Island Star", see photo below ( http://www.1000islandscruises.on.ca/dining-cruises/boats-captains/island-star ). She's somewhat larger than you're talking about (180 pers.) but is intended for similar use- dinner and sightseeing cruises, selling the "experience" at $70 or so a plate. The business model seems to work and people love the boat. Like I said, not quite what you're looking for, but a successful and profitable example is always a good starting point.

[robherc]

DiningShip-

I just completed a (rough) sketch of the hulls for 30'LOA, 3'hull beam, and 15' overall beam. If you have a copy of FreeShip (or DelftShip), I'll just send you the file & you can look at it, or modify it to your content. Otherwise, I can post a few screen-shots in here for you to look at.
Just to give you a ballpark estimate, the hullform I came up with displaces about 5.8 tons at only 2' draft.

[PAR]

DiningShip, I have a design that worked in the diner cruise trade for the first portion of it's service. It currently is working as sun set cruiser on the east coast, but is a powerboat and called "Belle" in my gallery. She's 50' with 16' of beam. Piloting is all done above the guests in the pilothouse.

If you drop me an email (click on my name) we can discuss options. I don't think 30' will produce an aesthetically pleasing vessel, given your requirements, though a few more feet of length could solve the problem.

I'm well acquainted with the shoal nature of Florida's waters, so draft issues shouldn't be a concern. My only real question now is to create a yacht, that doesn't look like a sail powered Winnebago on pontoons, which might be difficult in 30'.

[rasorinc]

I think you must have twin engines for safety. I am putting 2 inboard engines
hidden in the rear of my 30' sponsons. I'm going to attach them to jet units although props and rudders are almost as easy to install. I'm going with inboards as they cost far less then the larger outboards and use less fuel.
, and are more durable. You could even make a cat look like this though I suggest less sail.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/3342

[robherc]

Isn't that a ketch (as opposed to a schooner)? Looks more like main + mizzen than fore + main to me...I know, technicalities....it's a pretty ship though.

[rasorinc]

I don't know what it is. I'm not a sailing man. However, if he wants to go wild and draw attention to himself. How about this with the 3 circles being 14' in diameter. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1481

[DiningShip]

Robherc,

If you could post pictures it would great! I have a local contact here who says he can build said hulls for about 65 an hour (is that a good price?). I'd love to forward along a picture for more accurate money estimates.

Awesome picture Rasor. The Volvo Penta ISP engine is a directional control engine which can point in any direction. Operated by joystick. Mounted in the center of the craft the boat can spin 180 on spot. They also do some nifty things with exhuast and get pretty amazing GPH. The versitaility here would be to mount on in the middle of a the cat toward the rear. Idealy it would retractable while sailing, but that might be pushing it. =) We can dream right?

[rasorinc]

On that engine is it connected to a sail drive? Of course you could mount a long shaft outboard in a well, hidden from view, with a simple lift system to pull it up for sailing. I bet that Volvo costs big $$$$$$$ That would be an eye catching cat. I saved that pic off this forum so someone here did it.

[robherc]

@razor-
Inventive, VERY inventive!...If the circles are 14' diamaeter, then I'd guess that to be about a 35'LOA cat? don't think I, personally, would be interested in owning anything like that, but it COULD become one heck of a tourist attraction.

@DiningShip-
I don't know much about prices for builds...I'm a hobbyist & design/build all my own stuff, so I have no idea what things cost in the "real world." As far as the engine(s) I'd REALLY recommend going with double engines, one in each hull for the boat. Ideally, I/O engines would give you the most maneuverability, but you could pretty easily get away with normal inboards as long as you put the props directly forewords of your rudders.
Pictures are coming...soon as I can get them saved & posted.

[rasorinc]

The real joy for me is in the Rough design work then putting it all to close scale so I can make a materials list. I do most of it freehand. When I settle on a hull I go looking for plans of the hull done by a professional and buy them. The rest is weights and balances of my topside designs. I never design a hull sorta like if the foundation of a home is screwed up - the whole house is F-----.. That is why I tell newbes buy a set of professional plans for the hull. Just what I did on my 30' cat

My cat is 9'-2" x 30'-06" and the materials, for the hull , cabin (14' long) with Queen bed under front deck and a 6' rear deck built out of doug Fir and DF marine Ply, with sides and bottom glassed is running about $6,000.00 US for all materials.
As far as that design goes "COCTAILS BEING SERVED IN THE UPPER MEZZENING"

mY HULL . I have of course made changes. https://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=722

[DiningShip]

I liked the picture of the round top cat too, but I'm pretty sure that you'd get some Magnus force off it. Also seems a little more tailored to shock, then practical.

[robherc]

Here are the Linesplan (2160*1141 pixels...I made it BIG so it'd print legibly), design hydrostatics at 1.5' draft, and hydrostatics for 1' draft through 2' draft @ 3" trim & 3" draft increments.
I must not, however, that this is a fictitious hull that I designed in about 10 minutes. It does not include bulkheads, akas, superstructure, or anything....so take it with a BIG grain of salt please!

[rasorinc]

enlarge this look.

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/10456/size/big/cat/
On the round one it all depends on the materials you use and the color scheme. Plus I would work on the roofs. It would not be top heavy if done right the sides of the lower circles are about 4' high but in the center between sponsons you have full height. use the sides for seating. Your in a competitive business and need a real eye catcher that performs well. you can put a fair amount of seated people in a 14' circle.

[apex1]

Ross
go for a simple twin inboard istallation with controllable pitch props (featherable while sailing), they keep you engines in good health for very long and save on fuel. All in all they cost not more than the Volvo system (to same hp total), but live three times longer. Gori, Hundestedt etc.

The cost for 1lb of the boat (through the door) is in the ballpark of 15 to 22$ at present. Below that figure you should expect crap (or a builder in hassle), above is luxury with all the bells and whistles.

I have seen PAR is on the scene... stay relaxed and let him guide you. Even if he does´nt design it for you (I´m almost shure he will not) he will find the right ones.

Regards
Richard

[rasorinc]

Going with a catamaran hull is your best bet. Now you can make it and the topsides look like anything you want.
South Pacific, Chinese (junk), sleek sailing vessel ? only your imagination really limits you and some praticality. Have a lot of fun and enjoy the process. Do check with the CG though, so you can avoid mistakes up front.
And I recomend inboards as mentioned in early posts. If you want any further input from me, you can send me a PM also, I will continue to follow your progress on the forum. Stan

shrink this concept down a bit. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/12010

[mydauphin]

Low speed Surface drives for shallow draft and efficiency.
I don't 30 feet is enough for a dining and good real kitchen.So either make boat much bigger or keep kitchen off. Kitchen also increase power needs that take up shape and produces problems. Remeber that having a legal commercial kitchen on board can be a lot of work.

Cat idea is good for draft...etc... But depending on how far out your going, how about a big flat bottom house boat hull like Somerset

Or just go for big pontoon boat.

or a barge...
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/attachments/general-yachting-discussion/14768-bali-thai-style-houseboat-tiki-20barge.jpg?d=1159106845

[apex1]

or a barge...
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/attachments/general-yachting-discussion/14768-bali-thai-style-houseboat-tiki-20barge.jpg?d=1159106845

Ey... thats a nice one, and it has its pier already in tow, clever;)

[PAR]

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/521/medium/RYD-47.jpg

This is the boat I mentioned in my email Ross, not that I'm suggesting it as your dinner cruiser, but as a working dinner cruiser I've done. She can accommodate quite a crowd, well more then your requirements.

[Buildboats]

I have a kit catamaran that might be what your looking for and it's very cost effective NV Catamarans (http://www.buildboats.info)

[DiningShip]

I appreciate the thoughts guys, most people quickly fall into the "big crowd" thoughts. I'm not serving more than 6 people. I presently can do that with the equiped boats we use, but due to kitchen size (icebox, 2 burner alchol stove, 10 inches work space, sink), it can only be one dish. I can easily serve six guests six unique dishes with just a medium sized grill and a burner or two. All of it can be Propane, or even charcol, and an open air style kitchen, where you watch the chef work eliminates the need for excessive fire hoods and safety concerns. Simple is the key here. We keep things simple by using Captains with "six pack" licenses (though most have far high class licenses), no CG inspected vehicles. I knocked up a (very rough) model in Acad last night to give some idea of what I'm looking for. An island hopping cruiser with beds and excess heads is what most Cat's turn into if you think 'big'. Looking at the picture, you can also see that it could be a pontoon or houseboat, but we all like the silent sailing aspect of the trip and don't really want to change it to the typical engine based dining cruise ship. It adds very unique feel when you can look up from the table and see the sails filled with air and hear the wind whistling through the rigging.

Hulls in this model could contain water/waste storage as well as engines and other such nessacities, leaving the deck free for guests and chef. Thoughts?

[DiningShip]

I have a kit catamaran that might be what your looking for and it's very cost effective NV Catamarans (http://www.buildboats.info)

Wow! I love the double sails, and streamlined look. I'll look into this, thanks!

[robherc]

One thought I had when looking at your acad drawing:

The higher you build your superstructure, the higher you have to place your sails...and thus the more leverage the sails will have to tip your boat...end result is that you end up having to use smaller sails that can't move the boat as fast.


...just my $0.02, take it or leave it.

[DiningShip]

Seesh. Hadn't even though about that. Wife did point out that the captain would have low visibility when sails are up. Sometimes the obvious is the hardest to see.

[apex1]

Wow! I love the double sails, and streamlined look. I'll look into this, thanks!

You´re on the right path with them too! Experienced and fair priced!

Regards
Richard

[sigurd]

I like these. The sail is off to lee so it doesnt get in the soup.
http://www.harryproa.com/visionarry.htm

[DiningShip]

Think I saw that in a bond film. Wild build. Wonder if she pulls to port.

[sigurd]

It is a proa - it goes back and forth instead of tacking. It is called shunting. So if he pulls to port on one tack he will pull stbd the other. I don't think it is a problem though.