Green Cruiser 50

[Doug Lord]

Very unique design made with bamboo/epoxy composite featuring a translating keel where the bulb is mounted on tracks on the underside of large wings coming off a fairly short keel fin:
http://www.styacht.com/
---------
Comment on the keel first published on SA:
"An innovative keel system which has been specially thought through, developed and now patented, allows the boat to have a translating bulb mounted on a fixed winged keel. The advantages of a 'traditional' canting keel come along without the typical drawbacks. Draft is limited to 2 meters. The keel attachment to the hull is completely standard and the wings prevent the need for daggerboards. As a consequence nothing is affecting the interior space."
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/tav-6-keel-exploded-view.jpg
----
the VERY unique rudder:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/0814-rudder-asm-3d.jpg

[FormulaReed]

Looks like an interesting keel design... I wonder how it will hold up. I also wonder what kind of PHRF rating it will get.

Reed

[DGreenwood]

What a load of crap! Really! The typical cruiser doesn't really even know how to properly use a vang or a main traveler properly, much less take advantage of a few degrees of advantage that a wing will provide. A much less vulnerable wing keel showed up a few years back and was a complete failure in the cruising world.
And the claims to canting keel and daggerboard performance are so lame they are embarrassing. Really Doug you are a snakeoil salesmens dream.
That thing won't even make a minor appearance on the scene...thank God!

[Chris Ostlind]

the VERY unique rudder:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2009/0814-rudder-asm-3d.jpg



You mean unique like these rudders that have been around for many years?

There is also a powering device for kayaks that is a trolling motor integrated with a removable, stern hung rudder.

Doug, this is not new. It's a great idea and these guys bagged it for big boats.

Perhaps, getting out more often and looking at all kinds of boats and not just foilers would keep you more informed?

[Davide Tagliapi]

What a load of crap! Really! The typical cruiser doesn't really even know how to properly use a vang or a main traveler properly, much less take advantage of a few degrees of advantage that a wing will provide. A much less vulnerable wing keel showed up a few years back and was a complete failure in the cruising world.
And the claims to canting keel and daggerboard performance are so lame they are embarrassing. Really Doug you are a snakeoil salesmens dream.
That thing won't even make a minor appearance on the scene...thank God!

Well, Green cruiser 50 is meant to bring some technology down into the cruising boat world both for comfort and performance.
Deck layout allows the skipper to take under control all the manoeuvres.All lines are led to this point beneath the deck. In this way, the seating area of the cockpit and the stern sun deck remain accessible and free of potential dangers.
Keel System allows to move 2.5tons bulb by almost 3 m across the boat.
We developed this device to have a gain in total boat performance and lower down the displacement (less lead).
We have run a comparative VPP study ( feed with CDF derived polars of the appendages) using as a reference the same boat, with the same righting moment, the same draft, but fix keel (so heavier displacement) . The results, (see polar diagram attached: blue –standard keel; red – winged movable ball. TWS: 5-10-15-20-25 Kts) show similar performances in the range 0-10kts (TWS) . Above that range the gain in performance is very visible especially beam reaching.
The system if compared to a standard canting keel is less efficient in increasing the performances of the boat but has important and unique advantages:
-standard keel to hull attachment.
-low draft
-no interior space required
-lower energy consumption. Bulb moves side wise in a almost horizontal plane when boat heels.
-no daggerboards required

This means, for example that if you want to make your boat (whatever boat) lighter, keeping very similar stability properties, you can, and you'll go faster!

Please continue to give your comments. Would be great if they are very critical. We'll try think about, to answer or explain our vision. :) :)

[Doug Lord]

Davide, thanks very much for posting here. Very innovative thinking! Is there a concern about the bulb track under the wings getting fouled with sea growth?

[Davide Tagliapi]

Davide, thanks very much for posting here. Very innovative thinking! Is there a concern about the bulb track under the wings getting fouled with sea growth?

One way is mechanical: a flexible little plate in front of every sheeve of the bulb car can clean the sea growth at every movement of the bulb. To prevent problems an automatic bulb movement should be implemented in the PLC of the control system. Power consumption for that purpose is not a problem because the boat is a little power plant it self.
I'm getting info about other suitable chemical protection for mechanical movable parts.

[Chris Ostlind]

Doesn't the complete structure of the arrayed fins, when coupled with the bulb, act as one very efficient weed collector?

What provisions are there within the design to handle repeated keel fouling in locations where weed is a significant issue?

Perhaps a set of images showing the mechanical strategy for keeping the track clean would be appropriate so that the readers here can more fully understand the system?

What is the strategy for boat handling should the bulb be stuck in the track at the far end of its movement?

How susceptible is the system to track misalignment, should the keel form be struck by an underwater obstacle? Have any tests been done in this area for such a potential?

If misalignment occurs and the bulb becomes locked in place, what are the procedures for the typical cruising sailors and their wide latitude of experience in boat handling?

Have any structural changes been applied to the fixed fin and the hull to handle the enhanced drag induced torque on the structure?

Thank you,

[Davide Tagliapi]

Doesn't the complete structure of the arrayed fins, when coupled with the bulb, act as one very efficient weed collector?

What provisions are there within the design to handle repeated keel fouling in locations where weed is a significant issue?

Perhaps a set of images showing the mechanical strategy for keeping the track clean would be appropriate so that the readers here can more fully understand the system?

What is the strategy for boat handling should the bulb be stuck in the track at the far end of its movement?

How susceptible is the system to track misalignment, should the keel form be struck by an underwater obstacle? Have any tests been done in this area for such a potential?

If misalignment occurs and the bulb becomes locked in place, what are the procedures for the typical cruising sailors and their wide latitude of experience in boat handling?

Have any structural changes been applied to the fixed fin and the hull to handle the enhanced drag induced torque on the structure?

Thank you,

1) Giving the LE edge of the keel blade some degrees of sweep back and using the bulb as a weed cutter
2) 3) I will give you some images of the flexible plates sliding on the rails just in front the sheeves
4) Car system is detachable from the bulb so it can be handled easily. sliding rails are split at centerplane. you need to remove rails from one side, attach the driving steel wire cables and screw the rails in again. Than you assemble the bulb
5)-6) Car is designed to have sheeves rolling on each surfaces to prevent undue movements and locking issues. The attachement plate on the bulb is mounted and a high load rubber damper. To smooth out load peeks and vibrations.The system is meant to accomplish the ABS rules about grounding
minimum safety factors.

[Davide Tagliapi]

You mean unique like these rudders that have been around for many years?

There is also a powering device for kayaks that is a trolling motor integrated with a removable, stern hung rudder.

Doug, this is not new. It's a great idea and these guys bagged it for big boats.

Perhaps, getting out more often and looking at all kinds of boats and not just foilers would keep you more informed?



Right, this is not a new idea. Maybe is a new application for big boats.
The beauty of the system, at least as I see, is when it is applied to a 2 rudders boat.
Here some pros
- Electric engine allow the idea to be used because low vibrations
- Electric engines allow to have 2 counter rotating propellers.( port and starboard). =>> no evolutionary effect !
- No bow truster, but 2 engines consolle
- more efficient way to use the rudder stock ( usually on round stock are loded only side wise)
- less holes on the boat shell
- less overall drag (saildrive underwater support avoided)
- better boat manuverability.

[DGreenwood]

Listen...there is no one that likes the tech stuff more than me. I love seeing innovation. But really get a grip here and consider the reality of such a contraption under a "cruising" boat.
First off, the problems with moving parts underwater are overwhelming. The compatibility, corrosion and fouling issues are huge. Even with the highest strength materials we use (carbon, kevlar, titanium etc.) that setup would be nothing less than fragile at best. And saying the word cruising implies grounding. A gentle encounter with mud would be costly. Even if it didn't break, you would be stuck, as healing the boat would not help and any struggling would dig a hole and stick you worse. This is something I saw a lot of with the Beneteau charter boats with wing keels that were being used in the Caribbean. They sometimes had to hire a diver to dig a trench to get the boat out!!
I have worked around some the best technical boat builders in the world. I can say without hesitation that any one of them would whoop with joy if they got that thing to function in the shop environment, but I don't think any of them would tell you with a straight face that they would expect it to function in the marine environment.
It is a great intellectual exercise in design, at best, but the reality is silliness really.

[Doug Lord]

Davide, will the wings develop vertical lift when the boat is sailed relatively level-or is the lift down? I'm guessing that the lift would be down so that the leeward foil "lifts" to windward and so the windward foil adds a bit to RM...

[robherc]

Davide,

To solve a question raised in another thread, can you tell us the angle(s) of the wings (either the angle away from the vertical keel portion, or the angle between the two keel wings)?
I'm guessing:
1. 110*
2. 140*

...someone else guessed closer to:
1. 135*
2. 90*

Who was closer in their estimation?

[Tcubed]

I must say this concept and the word cruising do not go together. Cruisers value seaworthiness, ruggedness, simplicity, economy, practicality, which this concept is the very opposite of, and all just for a fractional increase in speed on reaches, close and broad.

I'm not dissing it as it is always neat to see people try new stuff though.

But now performance; Drop the boom so it is a few centimeters off the deck and you gain sail coefficient of lift , halve mainsail induced drag, get more sail area low down where it makes almost no difference to heel and for about 0.1% (a few square meter extra cloth) the cost of the keel apparatus...

Ok , so I think the sliding bulb keel actually needs to be continuous loop so the bulb wraps around (the foil goes through the bulb) the foil because i see a lot of parasitic drag between the foil and the bulb which is no doubt why the polars show no difference where it matters most; at VMG angles. I know the polars are CFD , as in theoretical, but assuming they' re accurate. Continuous loop also gives two attachment points which is a lot stronger, for this "pushing what we can do with materials to the limit" kind of thing.

[apex1]

I must say this concept and the word cruising do not go together.

for this "pushing what we can do with materials to the limit" kind of thing.

Right! And from a cruisers point of view, as already mentioned above:
what a load of crap..........
And, sorry, whats so green here? The bucks one can get from the dumb?

Regards
Richard

[dskira]

If you need a little power plant, it's not so green. As says Apex1 what is green in a mass of lead moving with a very complicate system which, if broken, you are toast in the middle of the ocean. A cruising boat can’t just pull over at a garage station when something go wrong. As for the grounding and hitting the bottom at low tide, which happens very often, I don’t think that a very expensive two tons lead on track will survive. A good, solid, plainly design keel ballast, tacking in consideration of what can really happens to a cruiser, will.
By cruising you learn a lot.
As for green, it is use all the time for marketing purpose. It’s over rated and over used. Every thing is green now, it is the latest trendy word. But nothing essentially is green in this design, probably less green than a 1920 cruiser without engine and alcohol stove, built simply carvel fashion with domestic wood.

[apex1]

As for green, it is use all the time for marketing purpose. It’s over rated and over used. Every thing is green now, it is the latest trendy word. But nothing essentially is green in this design, probably less green than a 1920 cruiser without engine and alcohol stove, built simply carvel fashion with domestic wood.

Yaahh, think it´s the bamboo that makes it green. That bamboo, grown in large plantations in China, well known for their environmental friendly (green) practices. Glued together with green Epoxy?
Nahh, the only green thing here: They try to sell it to the GREEN people!;)

Regards
Richard

[Chris Ostlind]

... And, sorry, whats so green here?

The designers have susbstituted a bio-based renewable resource, bamboo fibers, for the fiberglass component in the composite laminate. This is a product that, potentially, has a great future in composite structures, takes less energy to produce than does fiberglass and regrows to maturity at an alarming rate once harvested.

Now, if the epoxy, itself, were to be derived from a suitable, bio-based source such as soy, we'd really begin to see a very nice reduction in petro-chemistry derived materials. There are adhesives on the market and also in further development that have these characteristics. Just a little scratching around, fellas, will lead you to the topics.

Other, smaller gains can be made within the cabin structure where soy based foams can be used along with soy adhesives for the construction of the furniture and the bulkheads. There is a fairly long list of possible improvements that take us away from the oil industry, if only the boat building world would press forward to adopt the potential.

I'll bet that one of the considerations for a boat of this type of build philosophy is the very strong reality that markets just don't respond to wholesale changes in structural type. They need to be eased into the potential in stages, if one really wishes to transform a mind set. The boating industry and its coupled marketplace are especially immersed in that process of being slow to change. Yes, there are a few cutting edge practitioners who could absorb all these possible ideas in one single effort, but the market for those very special people is incredibly small and to hit them all with one initial effort is impossible. Better to not rush it, take a look at the response (such as the stuff posted on these pages) and formulate the next stage of the advance based on what is learned.

I see this boat as a very interesting step in that direction. The designers should be recognized for that effort, regardless of the thinking as it applies to the keel setup. To me, the keel is a separate argument that should be removed from the over-arching presentation of the boat as a complete concept.

[robherc]

I don't know about the boatbuilding industry as a whole, but I would GLADLY accept using all-renewable materials in a boat, all at once, if the renewables were made as cheap, and had the same (ora at least similar) strength!

Unfortunately, as I see it, Hemp cloth (similar strength to E-glass by volume, slightly better by weight) is $24/yd while I can buy E-glass in a RANGE of weights for under $4/yd ... so when it comes to costing a project, I can build 6x the boat in e-glass that I can in hemp fabric. Now, I'm all for "going green," but it's simply bad business to pay 6x as much for materials that are less than 1.5x as good.

[apex1]

The designers have susbstituted a bio-based renewable resource, bamboo fibers, for the fiberglass component in the composite laminate. This is a product that, potentially, has a great future in composite structures, takes less energy to produce than does fiberglass and regrows to maturity at an alarming rate once harvested.
.

Is it possible to provide some deeper insight into the technical properties of the bamboo fibers in comparison with glass?

Regards
Richard

[robherc]

Chris,

I found some info on "glassing" with bamboo cloth here...it's a surfboard site, but the info should translate pretty well for us.

http://www.greenlightsurfsupply.com/glassing.html

EDIT: Just checked their pricing...their bamboo "fiberglassing" fabric is 60" wide & they're selling it for $5.00/foot ($15/yd); at the same strength as 4oz e-glass.....EXPENSIVE!!!

[apex1]

EDIT: Just checked their pricing...their bamboo "fiberglassing" fabric is 60" wide & they're selling it for $5.00/foot ($15/yd); at the same strength as 4oz e-glass.....EXPENSIVE!!!

But GREEN ROB, green.:D

[Chris Ostlind]

I don't know about the boatbuilding industry as a whole, but I would GLADLY accept using all-renewable materials in a boat, all at once, if the renewables were made as cheap, and had the same (or at least similar) strength!


That's good... it's a start in the right direction. You do, however, recognize that you are one of the small percentage mentioned above and you're not at all common. ;-)


... Now, I'm all for "going green," but it's simply bad business to pay 6x as much for materials that are less than 1.5x as good.

Not necessarily bad business if you also factor for the host of intangibles that are directly associated.

Let’s say you buy a bike from the US, rather than a much less expensive version from China. This is assuming that the Chinese and US versions are equal in materials and build quality. ( in spite of the typical reports, I have seen some really well-made stuff out of China) When you purchase this US made bike, you pay the owner and all his employees.

Well, making that locally beneficial purchase is very similar to the investment in Green products, in that it would apply to the potential betterment of the planet. We're not going to see huge changes to our little blue ball in the beginning of the process. It’s going to take some time to be widespread and effective on a large scale. We are going to see, every once in awhile, a so-called Green operation that is not at all Green. That's inevitable with any new product intro, especially one with enormous potential financial rewards. But, that is not the pulse of the change.

Prices will be higher in the beginning, as you currently see, but as the product use increases, so will the numbers of those supplying the product. With that, will come pricing decreases as competitive energies strive to deliver in the marketplace ahead of the rest. If you perceive the changeover as an overall positive part which you can play for the greater good of all of us, then the expense at the beginning should be seen as an investment in your future. God knows that we've all squandered sums of money on less important "excursions" in our lifetimes.

These are interesting times in the world of boat building and design. Many new materials and products are likely to be developed, as well as many new process methods for making the best use of those new materials and products.

[Boston]

although the green moniker has been thoughtfully adulterated by the advertising world ( as is the word performance IMHO ) I think it important to continue and accelerate a movement to more sustainable life styles

I am certainly not well versed enough to comment on the keel design but this bit about more friendly epoxies sure caught my interest

as did the bits about reliability

Ill be building a comfortable sized coaster eventually to retire on and it will be as Chris pointed out of a more traditional design
and out of wood instead of some high embodied energy material

also, as I'm not to into swimming in rough seas it will have a simple and shallow keel design

but the epoxy is a huge concern for me
while Im over here hugging a tree Im thinkin that I dont want to lather bisphenal A all over myself and go sailing

so Ive been looking into what my alternatives are for epoxy in cold molding

not to many

resourcinal is even worse as it bleeds formaldehyde for about a hundred years

thing about that keel for me is exactly what I think T said which is that although Im all for innovation its got to be simple

maybe if someone came up with a reverse wing or reverse wing dagger boards or something that could hold the boat down in the water like the weight of a keel
thing would only work when the boat was moving fast but in light airs it would be the bomb cause it not got the weight of a lead keel and could have a lower forward profile

but the complexities of a moving bulb on a wing scare me off pretty quick
I know Im going to ground from time to time
its inevitable
and when I do I want to flip on that auxiliary and blast my way out of trouble still sipping on my martini and explaining to the girl that no, I didnt just hit anything

best of luck
and hey
glass is fairly easy on the environment its the epoxy that needs changing

cheers and good luck with the new design Doug
B

[Davide Tagliapi]

Listen...there is no one that likes the tech stuff more than me. I love seeing innovation. But really get a grip here and consider the reality of such a contraption under a "cruising" boat.
First off, the problems with moving parts underwater are overwhelming. The compatibility, corrosion and fouling issues are huge. Even with the highest strength materials we use (carbon, kevlar, titanium etc.) that setup would be nothing less than fragile at best. And saying the word cruising implies grounding. A gentle encounter with mud would be costly. Even if it didn't break, you would be stuck, as healing the boat would not help and any struggling would dig a hole and stick you worse. This is something I saw a lot of with the Beneteau charter boats with wing keels that were being used in the Caribbean. They sometimes had to hire a diver to dig a trench to get the boat out!!
I have worked around some the best technical boat builders in the world. I can say without hesitation that any one of them would whoop with joy if they got that thing to function in the shop environment, but I don't think any of them would tell you with a straight face that they would expect it to function in the marine environment.
It is a great intellectual exercise in design, at best, but the reality is silliness really.


Yes, you are right this is still an intellectual exercise, although at advanced stage. I got your points. All the doubts could be real issues.
But aren't they solvable? I think they are.
Is the effort in that direction worthy ? I think it depends on the final price and the reliability the system will have.
I don't have a huge experience but 10 years in designing thought me that recently marine field is getting much better in term of the quality of the engineering approach.
There's no way to escape to the gradual trend that will make any new boat a bit more technological and complicated. Hopefully they will make us happier too... I'm optimistic about that

[Davide Tagliapi]

Davide, will the wings develop vertical lift when the boat is sailed relatively level-or is the lift down? I'm guessing that the lift would be down so that the leeward foil "lifts" to windward and so the windward foil adds a bit to RM...

You are right :
the optimum setup found with the VPP study was a tiny angle wing nose down

[Davide Tagliapi]

Davide,

To solve a question raised in another thread, can you tell us the angle(s) of the wings (either the angle away from the vertical keel portion, or the angle between the two keel wings)?
I'm guessing:
1. 110*
2. 140*

...someone else guessed closer to:
1. 135*
2. 90*

Who was closer in their estimation?


You were closer.
Angle 1) is : 115º

[Boston]

actually the hole green movement is towards simpler more reliable longer life and environmentally more friendly products

sail power is definitely that, but the bend towards ultra tech peripherals is not
not to say the basics of the technical era arent here to stay
a few electronics and auto-navigation systems are a godsend
but the less to go wrong the better

[Tcubed]

Right on. I think there seems to be some kind of innate drive in people to complicate things.

I am guilty however of not reading the first post more carefully but letting my attention be dominated by the picture and the keel. The bamboo fibers instead of glass fibers is the bomb.

As far as the price difference goes that will decrease very rapidly not only as first the pioneers then more and more builders use it , but also because as we run out of petroleum the price of petroleum and all things made out of petrochemicals will rise very dramatically.

Fossil fuels are like an inheritance that humanity received from hundreds of millions of years of biological activity from our precessing and thus ancestral life forms. And in typical youthful folly style we wasted the inheritance as fast as we could instead of making a long term plan. Now we are just beginning the change of the inheritance runs out time to get a real job- sustainability- working for the now and the future instead of living large off the savings of life past.

[Davide Tagliapi]

Is it possible to provide some deeper insight into the technical properties of the bamboo fibers in comparison with glass?

Regards
Richard


Bamboo fibers/epoxy composite has some interesting properties:

1) tensile strength is about 100 Mpa
2) compressive strength about 50 Mpa
3) composite density is about 0.84 Kg/dm^3
4) the weight in resin required is about 30% (much less than standard glass wet or infused lamination)
5) bamboo fibers are available in plies 2 meters long, 0.4mm wide(MIN) thickness, 400mm wide. They are unidirectional,
6) Bamboo can grow almost everywhere. (...very close to the yard!!)
7) These UD plies are done with a mechanical process, that require much much less energy than Glass fibres production.
8) In 3 years Bamboo plants are ready to be used for structural purpose.
9) Bamboo absorbs about 10 times more CO2 if compared to a typical wood tree.
10) considering the life cycle analysis of the bamboo/epoxy composite is computed that for each kg of the composite about 0.5 kg is a credit of CO2


A pragmatic example to clarify the weight impacts on a boat keeping the same scanting rule requirements:

the Green Cruiser 50 was designed in 3 different materials according ISO standards 12215.
Considering for example the HULL SHELL made in E-Glass/epoxy as a reference we have found that:
- Bamboo fibers/epoxy is about 6% heavier
- Carbon fibers/epoxy is about 10% lighter.

[Chris Ostlind]

Nice post, Cube.

Wonder of wonders... we just may have more in common than you thought. That is a nice idea.

[DGreenwood]

Measuring how truly "Green" any product is, is a very complicated calculation that includes: lifespan of the product, transportation of its various components as well as the product, environmental cost of producing the materials, sustainability of the various used resources, disposal costs...the list goes on and on.
I, for one, am willing to pay for the extra cost of seeing this planet start immediately toward repairing the horrible damage we've done to it. However, I must say I have become very skeptical of off hand statements about any product actually being an improvement in environmental damage. That is not to say this product is better or worse. That would take more work to figure out than I am willing to put out right now. If they have actually made an effort to produce a good quality boat that is less costly to our planet...good on them...I applaud.

DT
You are right...engineering has improved enormously in the last 10-20 years for our industry. And I have to say your desire to improve the application of ballast is admirable. Now you must see how the general public reacts to such embryonic ideas as though they will have one next week. Then some knucklehead builds it because some knucklehead will buy it. Then we end up with a pile of unused fiberglass sitting in yards. Not very green. A walk around any large yard will show this to be true.

I know that you are in business and you need to attract those customers. Your ideas are a good method of bringing them to your door. I have absolutely no qualms with experimental design work like yours. The problems I mentioned are most likely solvable. But when I see people getting ideas that they will have one of those on their boat next spring I will step in and say "hold on here" .
Disclosure on your website about the truly experimental and costly nature of such a device would go far in making the gullible public much better informed boaters. And, though gullible boaters have made many people wealthy in our industry, I believe an informed boater is a boater I will be selling to for years to come. Plus, he will be a happy guy and much more pleasant fellow to deal with.
Finally,in reality, I wasn't dissing your innovative creation as much as I was trying to quell the overzealous desire of some of our forum mates to depict our near future lives at sea as borne on Mercurial wings manufactured of miracle fibers blasting around the globe at ear pinning speeds. ;?)

[Boston]

that measure is called embodied energy and its not yet a universal measure
although its about to be

on the whole
I couldnt agree more
taking it a step further
I cant help but think the era of sail based commerce will return
as well as fuels like cellulitic based alcohol maybe even based on algae harvesting

the bend towards high tech will find itself tempered by the need for sustainability through a blending of ideas only now on the drawing boards

this trend is best served when we share ideas and have an active and healthy debate
basically putting our heads on a chopping block and seeing what shakes loose in a public forum
for which I give Doug a lot of credit as he has taken his share of abuse and kept on ticking
this foil thing is passive enough to have tremendous merit in the new world
but is complex enough to be the proverbial reinventing of the wheel
there must be middle ground
and that middle ground is the green movement
not the bs the advertising complex would like us to believe it is

my own personal contribution in this regard is unfortunately not in the sailing forum but in plasma insulated windows which basically have an infinite r value ( recently patented :-)

but the concept is the same
I think what Doug is doing is a valuable contribution
as basically he is searching for a way to apply a passive technology in an active system
could work eventually
just got to keep it simple
and keep trying till the magic combination is found

best
B

as for me if I am lucky enough to scrape together the doe I would love to build a wood pilot schooner with CF masts and booms, cold molded and lead keel, cloth sail, hemp lines with limited electronics and an autopilot
simple
reliable
seaworthy
tried and true go anywhere vessel easy to take off a grounding and hard to wreck completely
with low enviromental impact
oh
alcohol powered auxiliary
runs cooler
cleaner
and not on fossil fuels
just that Ill have to ship more fuel for the same distance traveled under power
small price to pay
hell I might even run just an alcohol generator and go with photovoltaic's for the maintenance power
with a elec as a auxiliary

ah and the alcohol makes great heater fuel as it doesnt stink like diesel does

[Boston]

hey David
throw us a side by side comparison with carbon fiber

thanks
B

[Davide Tagliapi]

hey David
throw us a side by side comparison with carbon fiber

thanks
B


Here is the side to side comparison. The results depends on the inputs and
clearly the multiaxial layup and the type of Carbon fiber can have better properties. But I think this example might induce people think about the outcomes. This comparison is considering an hull bottom shell (slamming area) made in sandwich construction.
If someone loves solid laminate construction technics they could be even more impressed knowing that using a solid bamboo layup they will save about 25% in weight compared to solid Eglass. Using carbon the saving is 50%.

There are not many applications in marine field to know well all the drawbacks.
There are some. For example:
- the Bamboo UD supplier are mainly in China at the moment. But we all know that Bamboo is a grass and can grows almost everywhere very very quickly!
-layup the bamboo plies in a the female mould require more time than Glass cloth.
-the cost for small quantity is about 7 euros/m^2 (ply 0.6 thick)

Anyway I think it's a chance to make things in a more clever way. Wood has been used for thousands years. This is grass and its mechanical properties can be even better.

Don't you think it is worthy to invest a bit of our time, a bit of our intellectual resources to investigate these old materials embedded on new high technologies processes?
I thought was worthy and I did spent some time on it and I'm curious about the reactions. Whatever they are it's always a step forward to paint the full picture.

[Tcubed]

It seems to me that as only 30 % as much epoxy resin need be used this will offset to some extent the bamoo fibers present greater cost.

It would be interesting to know how the cost compares once the resin is factored in.

[Boston]

actually if Bamboo fiber takes off it should get dam cheep
I love this idea folks

now to find a non petroleum based epoxy like substance

[robherc]

Boston-

A while ago I found some clear plastic "deli tubs" made out of corn-based, "compostable" plastic (I think they called it PEX, or something like that), and they were VERY competitively priced (I think they MIGHT have even been the cheapest by size). Hopefully they aren't too terribly far away from that point with epoxies as well; though I don't think biodegradable epoxy would work out very well if your gel-coat got scratched. :(

[Boston]

well I use Titebond2 for all the oddball **** I build
I just wish those guys would come up with a marine glue
anyone ever put there stuff through the boiling and baking test

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/bostonpyramidbuilder/conservatory.jpg


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/bostonpyramidbuilder/conservatory4.jpg


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/bostonpyramidbuilder/conservatory1.jpg

[ancient kayaker]

...
I cant help but think the era of sail based commerce will return ...


I would like to think you were right but I imagine sailing on a commercial basis requires a whole different set of skills from the crew, so it will take time for those skills to be recreated on a sufficiently large scale if it ever comes to pass.

Re: your last post (some nice construction there) I use TB3 for my small boats, had zero failures so far and it's easy to use, but I still don't trust it in a situation where the wood becomes saturated.

I'm not a fan of epoxy, but I understand it deteriorates when exposed to UV. Does anyone know if it changes to something the environment can handle?

[Chris Ostlind]

As for more Green versions of epoxy... the R&D environment in University labs has seen 70/30, epoxy to soy oil based resins for more than six years now. Latest blends of proprietary chemistry are showing 50/50 blends to actually be stronger than straight epoxy. There's more to be had in this paper:
http://www.sampe.org/store/paper.aspx?pid=937 More papers on similar topics can be seen here, with extracts that can be purchased:
http://www.sampe.org/store/papers.aspx?c=&s=&st=7&p=34

There is already a manufacturer of vegetable oil based resin that is UV activated:
http://www.suscomp.com/resins.htm They have already built a very interesting dinghy from their resin with standard glass mat fabric:
http://www.suscomp.com/Ecoboat.htm

A bio-chemist at Oregon State Univ., has developed a soy based adhesive that closely mimics the adhesive chemistry secretions of mussels that can hold onto rocks in the wildest of sea conditions.
Google based series of relating articles here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mussel+adhesive+from+soy+oil+oregon&aq=f&oq=

Other university chemistry labs, in conjunction with industry efforts to clean-up their pollution, have found an amazing adhesive that is derived from the lignin waste of paper mills, called "black liquor" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liquor Just Google for more detailed data.

Bio-based soy chemistry foams, which could replace oil based structural foams in sandwich laminates, are already being utilized in the construction industry, as are soy based adhesives for exterior grade plywood glue-ups.

All this stuff is about to pop wide open in the market place (some of it already has) and most of it is due to governmental and industry research grants to universities on the cutting edge of renewable resource chemistry studies.

There are other bio-mass fiber sources besides hemp that also show great promise for composites, such as Kenaf and Flax.

If you guys are looking for a revolution in the boating world, it exists within the use of these kinds of bio-based composite products. The kinds of products that will get us away from petro-chemical solutions for boat building and into a future of sustainable materials that will damage the environment in far lower amounts than we are currently accepting.

[Boston]

Ill have to look up TB3
and ya Chris
dam glad to hear it cuase the answer to Terry's question is a resounding no
Epoxy is horrible on the environment
its loaded with this stuff called bysphinol-A and its a really bad endocrine disruptor, water soluble at room temperature and u dont want to have an allergic reaction to it
basically it effects the testicles the most
I wrote a paper on plastics vs glass a while back
let me see if I can dig it up
I know Ive posted it before when a question like this came up


Abstract

In regards to plastics use in manufacturing when a glass alternative is available. Compare the manufacturing processes, disposal practices, recycling potential and toxic effects of both glass and plastic and there effects on our environment. Hypothesis, that the preponderance of plastic fragments and molecular plastic, plastic leachates, binders, bio-toxins, bio-toxin accumulators carcinogens and tarterogens hormone disruptors, endocrine disruptors, plastic by products and consequential post and preproduction waste in the environment and there harmful consequence are sufficient to offset any advantages over glass. All conclusions are substantiated in the body and noted.



conclusions
glass 


Both glass and glass waste are non toxic and stable in the environment giving off no harmful byproducts. Manufacturing of glass produces pollutants at the source of manufacturing and during materials acquisition, these pollutants can be controlled economically: various network modifiers used in the production of glass appear to play no significant pollution role. Chemically tempered glass is also inert. Lead used in the manufacture of decorative glass falls under the guidelines of EPCRA Section 313 and is exempt being stable with in the glass matrix. There has been a steady decline in pollutants produced pr ton of glass, mainly co2 , noX, soX . Glass is 100% recyclable



conclusions
plastic


Plastic, plastic components, the production of plastic and plastic waste are mildly to extremely toxic, all are environmentally detrimental, with results ranging from the release of strong carcinogens and tarterogens to the existence of bio-toxin accumulators and endocrine disruptors. five of the six most toxic and abundant chemical pollutants found in the environment are commonly associated with the production of plastics. Plastic photo-degrades releasing persistent toxins like Bisphenol A and Phthalates over extended periods of time. Plastic is non biodegradable and both the long chain and short chain plastic molecule appears to be permanent in the environment. Pollutants consisting of nurdles, leachates, fragmentary or hole plastic waste cannot be economically controlled. There has been an exponential rise in molecular plastic found throughout the worlds oceans. Animal deaths based on plastic ingestion number in the hundreds of millions with some extinction events and trophic cascades noted. Pollution pr ton of plastic produced appears to be increasing. Most plastic is non recyclable.



citation 
Paul Goettlich 14dec01 the problem with plastic 
Charles Moore and Miwa Tamanaha, Pelagic Plastic Task Force Organizers 11apr01
Plastic in the Sea - Paul Goettlich / Living Nutrition 5oct2005

Editor


This article is presently under development and will be edited upon its completion 
( so dont come at me with spelling issues )

Copyright

This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.



Funding 
This research project has been Anonymously funded, the benefactor having no role in study design, data collections and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript

( basically the girlfriend put up with me sitting on my ass for a few months while I was collecting all the data )


competing interests 

the author confirms that no competing interests exist


Body
Environmental concerns over glass

Glass is made up of a few naturally abundant minerals, mostly silicate, and breaks down into natural, harmless components(3,6). Waste glass is environmentally neutral(3). The vast majority of pollution caused by the manufacturing of glass is source point and can be managed economically. Waste glass prepared for reuse, called Cullet is also inert and its increasing use as an aggregate means that it can be economically reused without the need for remanufacture (36). When remanufacturing is advantageous cullet reduces the level of emissions from the process by up to 40% (3,37) and the level of energy by as much as 30% (9,32,35). glass has an Embodied Energy of between 25.0 MJ/kg and 12.7 MJ/kg (1,4,30). and a density of 2470 kg/m3 (1). Glass is 100% recyclable (32). The U.S. glass recycling rate in 2003 was 19% (9) in 2001, for Australia 83%, Sweden: 84%, Germany: 87%, Belgium and Norway: 88%, Finland: 91% and Switzerland: 92% (9). Recycling one ton of glass saves nine to ten gallons of oil (9,32)



Environmental concerns over plastics


Plastic is made up of numerous petroleum based compounds, to produce 1 kg of Acrylic (PMMA, Polymethyl methacrylate) (23) 2 kg of petroleum is needed and up to 5 kg of toxic waist is generated (2,3). Plastic never breaks down but instead photo-degrades into some of the most hazardous petrochemical substances known to man (3,6,7,38). PMMA has an embodied energy of about 131.0MJ/kg with a density of 1180 kg/m3 (1,3,30). Although it is difficult to determine the exact production level of plastics per yr. 2007 estimates range from 100,000,000 to 205,000,000 tons (28,45) with an anual increase of 9.5% (45) 
100,000,000,000 plastic bags are used each year in the u.s. alone (10)
the U.S recovery (recycling) rate for all plastics in 2005 was 1% (3,5,8,10)
In 2007 World wide, less than 3% is recovered (3,5,8).
In an EPA ranking of the twenty chemicals whose production generates the most total hazardous waste, five of the top six are chemicals commonly used by the plastic industry. (10)
recycling one ton of plastic saves 1000 gallons of oil (10,32)

Plastic as it photo-degrades releases binders like Phthalates, Bisphenol A, Nonyphenols and PBDEs along with countless other known carcinogens and teratogens (3,16,21,25,32). Once the binders are released, plastic remains as a large molecule(3,17). Dioxins are created both during production and incineration (2,3,16,17,31,32,46) dioxins are the strongest carcinogen known to man (3,5,6.7,31,38), The number of harmful chemicals associated with the production of plastic are to numerous to mention in this comparison, however; just one a primary component of acrylics ( mainly polycarbonates ) is bisphenol A (BPA), a hormone disrupter, that releases into food and liquid at room temperature(3,16,17,21,), it is considered a teratogen along with thalidomide and is known to cause embryonic malformations (3.8.16). Phthalates have been shown to cause genital malformations
In 1999 Plastic waste had outweighed plankton in our oceans 6 to 1, by 2002 the number had risen to 10/1 (3,10,11,16,17). The north pacific gyre alone, has a density of 14.8 million visible pieces of floating plastic per square mile, over an area twice the size of texas (3,11). Thats 1.9 pieces of plastic such as, bottles, bottle caps, lighters, beach palls, plastic packaging or plastic aquariums for every square foot of ocean surface spanning an area of 537,202 square miles (3,11). This is only one of six mid ocean gyre systems polluted to this extent (39). These areas of floating plastic range in size from twice the size of Texas to the size of Africa (3,11).
Plastic appears to have a half life longer than most radioactive compounds (3) with its use being required by the epa as containment packaging for low grade nuclear waist disposal (33,43). Polyethylene has been approved for the long term disposal of liquid radioactive waist (3,40,41,42) ( of course they also approved glass, tar and concrete ). The long chain plastic molecule is so durable that its half life is still being researched.
Plastic virtually never breaks down in the environment beyond the molecular level (3,7,11). We are stuck with every piece of plastic ever created (11). Unless collected and incinerated there is no getting rid of it. Remanufacture is not effective in halting plastics from leaching contaminates into there surroundings. There is little debate over the adverse effects of plastics to the marine environment (ref-all not one dissenting opinion as to plastics harmful effect on the marine ecosystem ), Various forms of marine life, eat so much plastic, mistaking plastic fragments for plankton that it has decimated our ocean communities (10,11,15,16,17,44). Filter feeders unable to distinguish between plastic molecules and plankton, ingest and include millions of tons of plastics into the food chain (3,7,10,11,16,17,32,44), leading to the contamination and eventual starvation of countless organisms (3,10,11,16,17,32,44). 



additional comments


the cost of collecting, destroying or remanufacturing Plastic (as most plastic is uneconomical to remanufacture) “must” be endured no mater how high because of plastics highly toxic and enduring nature; were as the recycling of glass can be safely limited to its economic viability with out adverse environmental effects, as long as source point gaseous emissions are controlled. The embodied energy of acrylic is over ten times that of glass, making it both an economically and environmentally unsound alternative (3,5,14,32). The environmental impact of glass is minimal (3,6,32,36,).



references
1 ) Materials, geometry, and net energy ratio of tubular ...
2 ) http://www.mindfully.org/Berkeley/Berkeley-Plastics-Task-Force.htm
3 ) www.mindfully.org/Plastic/
4 ) measure of sustainability embodied energy
5 ) http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Best-Recycle-Plastic.htm
6 ) www.lotuslive.org/products/files/LLDrinkContainer01.pdf
7 ) www.fakeplasticfish.com/synthetic_sea_transcript.html
8 ) www.ecologycenter.org
9 ) Metro: Waste reduction fast facts: Glass
10 ) Metro: Waste reduction fast facts: Plastic
11 ) www.acfnewsource.org/environment/
12 ) www.fragmentsfromfloyd.com/ 2007/06/
13 ) NRC: Radioactive Waste
14 ) BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Warning on plastic's toxic threat
15 ) Keeping our ocean clean : Bradley Beach Today
16 ) Untitled Document
17 ) www.mountainfilm.org/downloads/docs/The_Plastic_Sea.pdf
18 ) www.visiongroup.co.uk/go.jsp?page=visiongroup_uk.compare comparison of glass and plastic
19 )http://www.firsttankguide.net/tanktype.php comparison of glass and acrylic
20 )www.stii.dost.gov.ph/pjsweb/data/decomposer.htm - 7k
21 ) http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html
22 ) http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/f_acrlac.txt
23 ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethyl_methacrylate
24 ) http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5998554.html
25 ) http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/6.html
26 ) http://goalgreen.com/2007/06/25/plastic-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/
27 ) http://www.chemsoc.org/exemplarchem/entries/2004/bristol_whitehead/facts.htm
28 ) http://www.wasteonline.org.uk/resources/InformationSheets/Plastics.htm
29 ) www.level.org.nz
30 ) www.grisb.org/publications/pub33.htm - 24k -
31 ) http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/publications/
32 ) GLASS vs. PLASTIC
33 ) RADIOACTIVE WASTE MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY ...
34)http://www.devicelink.com/mpb/archive/96/01/001.html
http://www.environmentwriter.org/resources/backissues/chemicals/acrylicacid.htm
35 ) Fact Sheets - Glass
36 ) ftp://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/gsd/pdf/yrr_feb.pdf
37 ) Cullet Preheating: The Realistic Solution for All Glass Furnaces ...
38 ) Professional Environmental Solutions - Atlanta, Georgia
39 ) Patagonia Under Siege: The Plastic Killing Fields - Pacific Ocean ...
40 ) Composition and process for the encapsulation and stabilization of ...
41 ) APPENDIX D - Key Federal Laws and Regulations
42 ) Mixed-Waste Shipping & Transportation | Radiation Protection | US EPA
43 ) Low Level Radioactive Waste Information Page
44 ) DEP: Atlantic Green Sea Turtle Fact Sheet
45 ) Ulrich Reifenhäuser: Plastics and rubber have changed the world ...
46 ) Plastic Debris Washed Ashore
47 ) Bizarre Properties of Glass Revealed | LiveScience
48 ) Canada Likely to Label Plastic Ingredient ‘Toxic’ - New York Times

additional resources
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/
http://www.americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/sec.asp?TrackID=&CID=343&DID=1110&VID=86
http://www.mindfully.org/Berkeley-Plastics-Task-Force.htm
http://www.designboom.com/eng/education/pet/recycling.html
http://americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/sec.asp
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/glass.htm
http://www.epa.gov/grtlakes/seahome/housewaste/src/glass.htm
http://www.cityofmadison.com/streets/plastic.html

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