Multiuser ISO-library

[TeddyDiver]

Just again a thought I had, happens every now and then, after having myself and others having similar issues concerning boat building ISO standards:
Big companies purchase their own copies, they have the resources (money) to do that as well an office full of NA's using them constantinously. An independent boat builder (an amateur or pro doesn't matter) however does neither have such assets, not anyway for all of them, nor need for them constantinously..
But if... a boat building community (like boatdesign.net) would negociate an agreement of terms for limited usage inside such community. Each user of the Standard library should pay an annual fee of the righ to read it (no prints allowed)...
Any thoughts? Jeff ? :)

[ringoo83]

hope boat design admin will response to your call

[marshmat]

I like the idea.
Standards bodies can be somewhat bureaucratic and rule-bound, so I don't think it would be easy to set up a licensing agreement. I think the main problem would be in the enforcement of said "limited usage"- you can print-lock a PDF well enough to discourage the casual pirate (although a good hacker can still break this), but it's awfully hard to prevent saving to a local drive. But I think there would be a lot of interest, if it could be made to happen.

[TeddyDiver]

Standards bodies can be somewhat bureaucratic and rule-bound, so I don't think it would be easy to set up a licensing agreement.
I haven't gone throw their general lisence policy but...
http://www.iso.org/iso/copyright.htm

and thats about all there is..

[marshmat]

A 14-page policy brochure that, at the end of the day, basically says "don't copy our stuff, but you can call us and we might be able to set something up for you"..... better than many of their counterparts, I suppose :)

[TeddyDiver]

better than many of their counterparts, I suppose :)
You're right.. Maybe there's a change to cook up something.. For starters somekind of poll what is needed?

[Guillermo]

Nice idea, Teddy. Although most probably ISO will reject making its norms available through a public forum like Boatdesign.net.

Anyway, here an idea of how this could be possible:

From ISO copyright information:

"Other techniques preventing
files from being altered, shared or copied have
also been implemented by ISO and/or IEC
members in the context of specific offerings
like pay-per-view or subscriptions services."
.....................
Storing electronic copies of standards on
the company Intranet for internal use and
sharing between employees – ISO and IEC
offer solutions for the networking of their
standards on company Intranets that offer costeffective
and user-friendly access rights."

So Boatdesign.net (Jeff) could buy a full set of electronic files and create an Intranet for their use on a cheap pay-per-view basis, payment that would be transferred to the ISO somehow. The documents could be protected to make them not downloadable or printable, just able for on-line reading (multiple times). Something like the nowadays on-line magazines.

But this could be done by the ISO itself.

Just an idea.
Cheers.

[TeddyDiver]

Thats about what I had in mind.. Maybe like some other limited acces (paid members only) forum like boatdiesel.com.. but being the ISO standard library.

[Guillermo]

I wrote the guys at ISO suggesting the idea. Let's see what's their reaction....

Cheers.

[Guillermo]

I've received a message from the ISO, which I reproduce here partially:

"Dear Mr. Gefaell,
Thank you for your message. I went through the thread at boatdesign.net
forum and can confirm that, indeed, a solution like building a library of
ISO Standards to be accessed by a community like boatdesign.net is possible.
From a practical point of view, the main condition for such an solution is
that standards are not made publicly available, but that access is really
restricted to identified and registered community members only (identified
and registered means that membership in this case should be more than just a
simple registration to the public forum, the payment of an annual fee to
access the library as suggested by TeddyDiver can be an appropriate
solution).
............"

Jeff and Teddy, please send me an e-mail, so I can forward to you the full message I've received.

Cheers.

[TeddyDiver]

Keeping my fingers crossed :D
pm send

[Jeff]

Thanks Guillermo!

I've been thinking about this interesting idea since reading the thread yesterday -- I fear that we could simply be an unnecessary middleman, but maybe not.

[Willallison]

One of the excellent "why didn't I think of that ideas"!
Let's hope that it all comes to something and that the end result is a set of standards that can be readily and affordably accessed....
It's been said many times before, but I fail to understand why rules like ISO should be anything other than free of charge. Their entire reason for being is (or at least should be) to make boating safer. The wider their application, the better off the boating comunity would be.

[TeddyDiver]

I fear that we could simply be an unnecessary middleman, but maybe not.
To me it seems obvious that somekind of middleman is a necessity in this regard. It could also be a natural part of this wonderful community we have here, despite the necessity of having a fee or something alike.
What comes to my mind is the possibility to have also some commercial "sponsors" for the library. It's anyway obvious that users of the ISO standards are serious boatbuilders and the best possible group of boatbuilding-gizmo-tool-chemicals-anything buyers :D

[daiquiri]

the main condition for such an solution is that standards are not made publicly available, but that access is really restricted to identified and registered community members only (identified and registered means that membership in this case should be more than just a simple registration to the public forum, the payment of an annual fee to access the library as suggested by TeddyDiver can be an appropriate solution)"


I'm casting my vote here:
It sounds ok to me, and would be interested in such kind of subscription.

[Ike]

The middle man exists. If you join ABYC (http://www.abycinc.org) and subscribe to their online standards access Rulefinder.net, then you will have access to all ABYC, ISO and federal standards. In fact at the Seattle Boat Show they had a special where you got membership and online access for one price. I don't know if that's still available but it never hurts to ask.

[Guillermo]

Not big deal, in my opinion.
From ABYC pages:

"ABYC serves as the Technical Advisory Group to ISO Technical Committee 188 (TC188). In this role, ABYC invites all aspects of the industry to comment on documents covered under TC188. If you would like more information about US involvement in ISO activities, please contact John Adey at techdept@abycinc.org.
All relevant ISO documents are available for purchase from the American National Standards Institute (ANSI). ABYC members receive a 10% discount on relevant ISO orders in the ANSI eStandards Store.

If you wish to learn more about ABYC membership, and how you can take advantage of member benefits such as this discount, click here.

Click here to purchase ISO documents"

10% ?? :(

Cheers.

[daiquiri]

Well, sorry but 10% makes me :D:D:D
Hope we will be able to obtain much better conditions from ISO.

[Ike]

That's 10% off , if you buy a hard copy of the standard. However, you can opt for online access, for a fee of course, and have access to all ISO standards that apply to boats.

[Guillermo]

Well, there's always the possibility of directly joining Rulefinder.net (www.rulefinder.net).

Here their membership costs:
http://www.rulefinder.net/images/docs/Rulefinder%20net%20Registration-2008v3.pdf

Perhaps through Boatdesign.net we could get a discount here...:?:

Cheers.

[TeddyDiver]

Here their membership costs:
http://www.rulefinder.net/images/docs/Rulefinder%20net%20Registration-2008v3.pdf
Well thats 1000e for two years.. not very encouraging. And at that cost it's possible to buy 12 standards directly from ISO without any additional annual fees and it allmost covers everything needed for a boat so
:confused:

[TeddyDiver]

However, you can opt for online access, for a fee of course, and have access to all ISO standards that apply to boats.

http://www.abycinc.org/rulefinder/rcd_iso.cfm Is this what you meant :confused:


From an amateur builder point of view.. If I build a boat, lets say 8 years, and during that time need an access to particular standards (maybe 15 of them) occasionally my options are now:
Buy them from ISO 15x80e=1200e :mad:
Rulefinder membership 800e+7x200e=2200e :eek:
Copy them illegally :rolleyes:
Or find out a reasonable access with reasonable price :confused:

[patiras]

Very interested in this thread, as I'm in the position of finishing a boat for cat C complience, and basically bit the bullit and just bought a couple of the key ISO standards.

What would be the problem with those of us in our profession from forming a company, and then between us subscribing to one of the websites, or just buying the standards? All the standards between 20 people is going to decrease the cost somewhat.
Sunseeker (just as an example of a big company) would only buy one set of the ISO standards or only sign up as a company to a website, and the standards would be available to all their staff.
The original electronic version of the ISO standards could be held on a secure server and only viewed by members of the company.
Whats the difference?

Al.

[TeddyDiver]

No difference.. and I'm willing to participate in any reasonable solution to come. Your proposal is possible too.. just missing someone willing to provide the server and upkeep it etc.. And for this a site like BoatDesign.net would be about perfect also considering accessibilty for a somewhat larger group of users.. But in this regard we'll better wait a bit untill Jeff has decided before starting to find other site (I think) :)

[yachty4000]

The International Sailing Federation was looking into this last year. One system already exists and that is the Royal Yachting Association run a site called RCDweb see http://www.rcdweb.com/ which is the cheapest way I have found of accessing the ISO Standards at the moment I havent looked at the ABYC costs but the discounts on the complete package is a lot more than 10% and its web based and has an update fee rather than having to buy the standards again.

I am surprised that ISO replied to you so positively. Normally the deals on ISO standards have to be done with National Standards Body I have some experience of this with the BSi the body for UK when I looked into this a year ago. The cost of creating secure enough servers to store the documents is costly so it is hard to justify the set up costs.

[Guillermo]

Very good info yachty4000, thanks. Prices are very attractive. Probably something like this is what Jeff may consider.

Cheers.

[TeddyDiver]

Payment amount
New users for 12 months : £440.00 + VAT
£506.00
Existing Subscribers – Anniversary Renewal for 12 months : £140.00 + VAT
£ 161.00

Beats rulefinder.. (not a bargain thou, but..?)

[daiquiri]

Payment amount
New users for 12 months : £440.00 + VAT
£506.00
Existing Subscribers – Anniversary Renewal for 12 months : £140.00 + VAT
£ 161.00
Beats rulefinder.. (not a bargain thou, but..?)

Is VAT to be payed if one lives outside of UK?

[yachty4000]

My simple and I am here to be corrected as this is not my specialist subject is that VAT is not payable if your outside the EC. If your in the EC it is payable but if your a registered company for tax purposes in your country then it is either not payable or reclaimable.

As for ISO and shared viewing of the documents from one login this is a hard one. I doubt anyone terms and conditions would allow this without a different subscription rate but there very little that can be done to stop it other than monitoring IP address.

ISO funding is based on the sale of the documents it's another thread I feel to discuss the merits of this so please no responses (my view is I would prefer a direct tax each item built to that standard and free access to all interested parties so everyone knew what they are getting. The current funding model doesn't work as ISO have cancelled meetings etc. It must be expensive for ISO to monitor and preserve the copyright of their documents.)

[Paolo]

Hi,
this is not in the direction of a multiuser library, but it's good news anyway. You can buy ISO standards through the Estonian Centre for standardisation (www.evs.ee) for a fraction of the prices found elsewhere.
Example: ISO 12215-5:2008 - 21.47 euros instead of 140 euros (at ISO).
That makes an 85% discount... I did not manage to get their credic card system to work with my card, had to do a bank transfer but could download standards the day after.
Hope it helps,
Paolo

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Paolo. As do not understand Estonian, I'm not able to find where is their download facility. Can you help?

Cheers.

P.S.
I've found already that tiny 'eng' tag on the right upper corner and now I'm able to read it. Thanks!

[TeddyDiver]

Thanks from me too Paolo! Your reputation seems to sky rocketing now :D

I made some serious shopping.. fingers crossed.. No problemo with credit card payment..
There might be "some" currency benefit for us € shoppers due on going economic crisis?

[yachty4000]

Paolo

Thanks for the tip if it as cheap as you say it appears then this is a great link.

Thanks

[TeddyDiver]

Files downloaded and seems to be ok.
For the record EVS didn't send any additional e-mail when the files where ready to be uploaded and the link they provided (to see current status of the order) after the purchase didn't work either, but going via their web pages, log in and press the first link in the list of three (forgot allready what it was named in 5 min :D ) to see files waiting to be uploaded..