What would you like to see on a 40 ft day cruiser?

[Ash.D]

Hi,

I would just like some opinions on what makes a boat (40ft ish cruiser) 'cool' in your eyes?

Could it be the aesthetics of a particular boat, and why?

Or, the interior styling, layout and why?

Or maybe even nifty little design features and technologies?

Any opinions would be very usefull.

Thanks

Ash

[Eric Sponberg]

Good looks, utility, and price.

These are the factors that governed our design choices for the Scandinavian Cruiser 40 which is about to be announced world wide. You can see preliminary information on my website:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/SC40.htm

[Eric Sponberg]

Whoops! Hit the wrong button before finishing. I also wanted to provide the link to the SC website:

http://www.scandinaviancruisers.com/our_yachts

The design is inspired by the 30 square meter boats of 100 years ago (centenial was 2008) resulting in the narrow hull form and long overhangs--the is the good looks part.

We started this design with the idea that it would be a weekender, so there was a modicum of accommodation down below. But people don't want to camp out on a skinny boat, they don't have time for that. So we made this a true daysailer meant for only a few hours sail. A cooler and a hot plate are provided in the cockpit under cover, and a head is down below. The rig is free-standing, the keel raises and lowers, as does the rudder in a drum. The boat will be built in China and delivered factory direct on its own trailer in a standard shipping container. All this is the utility part.

The target base price is hopefully under US$200,000--this is the price part.

There are lots of boats being built around the world that fit your basic category, and they are tailored to all uses from weekend cruising to club racing. Some are plain, some are very nicely equipped. Prices range from below US$100,000 to over US$800,000. I suspect that you will get a very broad range of opinions on this thread. The SC 40 that I have shown his is but one example.

Eric

[yipster]

Eric, great work and classic daysailer thoroughbred example, compliments!

[Eric Sponberg]

Thanks, Yipster. I guess I should proof-read my typing a little better, and I sometimes forget to do that. Sorry for the typos. I look forward to others who have ideas on what makes a "cool" 40' daysailer.

Eric

[kenJ]

I like the styling of the current crop of daysailors, Alerion Express, etc. The SC40 fits right in. For power the Hinkley Picnic is fitted out a bit more than just day cruising, but a fine example of a classic design.

[apex1]

Hi,

I would just like some opinions on what makes a boat (40ft ish cruiser) 'cool' in your eyes? The nice birds, first.

Could it be the aesthetics of a particular boat, and why?
Or, the interior styling, layout and why?
Or maybe even nifty little design features and technologies?
Any opinions would be very usefull.
Thanks
Ash

And this:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/13521/ppuser/11121
in terms of design, if we are talking powerboats. (downsized naturally!)
Regards
Richard

[RHP]

Hi,

I would just like some opinions on what makes a boat (40ft ish cruiser) 'cool' in your eyes?




Just build this and make it cheap.

Take the fancy gear off, use cheaper, standard materials and put proper sails on it but it must be cheap. Cheap.

We are in a financial meltdown, make it CHEAP. USD$200,000 is not CHEAP.

Lets all stop trying to become multi-millionaires over night - make it CHEAP.

http://www.wally.com/wallynano/features/easysailing.html

[apex1]

Just build this and make it cheap.

Take the fancy gear off, use cheaper, standard materials and put proper sails on it but it must be cheap. Cheap.

We are in a financial meltdown, make it CHEAP. USD$200,000 is not CHEAP.

Lets all stop trying to become multi-millionaires over night - make it CHEAP.

http://www.wally.com/wallynano/features/easysailing.html

Got you... I´ll go for it. 120 as a rough figure?
Regards
Richard

[RHP]

120 would be a great price but could it work out? To be that boat is pure aethestics, down below could real real basic the pleasure is in sailing her.

Cheers
Richard

PS I still have a Honda CBXz1000 and a Laverda Jota....

[apex1]

120 would be a great price but could it work out? To be that boat is pure aethestics, down below could real real basic the pleasure is in sailing her.

Cheers
Richard

PS I still have a Honda CBXz1000 and a Laverda Jota....

WOW........ L A V E R D A ................ ahhhhh had a 750 sf, some 546 years ago.
To topic:
I´m not quite shure, but first estimations come to that sum. Daysailer... plain basic fun, pure sailing. Seats six, sleeps two, icebox and loo ! :cool: Still in doubt if the 28 kva genny or the 2m² fridge has to be put on the sacrifice list first.:D
I´ll really work on it (bikers pledge).
Regards
Richard

[PortTacker]

50 mph @ .5 gph with Italian style for the price of a crappy used car. THAT's what I want!

[Norm01]

i like the looks of these

www.pbmy.com.au

[Eric Sponberg]

120 would be a great price but could it work out? To be that boat is pure aethestics, down below could real real basic the pleasure is in sailing her.

Cheers
Richard

So that looks like your limit range. US$200K is too much, but US$120K is good but maybe unrealistic. That is interesting and useful to know. Personally, I could not even afford $120,000 for the SC 40 or the other suggestions here--I just don't have that much spare cash to spend on a boat. But that's beside the point.

In a boat this size, it is hard to make a huge profit. Of course, boatbuilders are in the business of making profits--you cannot survive without some profit. At 40', these designs necessarily target an audience that has some significant income and disposable cash--they have to have a place to keep it, which means a place at a yacht club or marina which carries monthly fees (over and above the house mortgage), or a house with enough property to park it in the yard. The customer also has to have a large car or truck with which to tow it. Just by boat length, one defines the customer to a certain income level that is well above average. Therefore, one tries to balance the features available, and the style, to convince customers to buy your design. Price should be what the market will bear without losing your socks.

Of course, it is natural to aspire to having a blockbuster design where the market goes crazy and you can make a huge profit. The Hinckley Picnic Boat is a case in point. Years ago, I heard on the docks of the Newport Boat Show during one of the first showings of the picnic boat that the price of the boat was jumping $10,000 with each successive order at the show. And they sold a lot of boats there. That is a lucky but rare occurance. Eventually, the price of the picnic boat went to over $800,000, if memory serves, and I don't know what the price is today. But there is no way that the picnic boat costs that much to build with a little profit on top. As I said, such instances are very rare.

Thanks for your input. It would be interesting to know from others reading here: What price would you pay for a 40' daysailer? In addition, realistically, what price can you afford to pay for such a boat?

Eric

[apex1]

Eric
A real bright, analytic statement. And a (naturally) deep insight into our market, thanks.
Of course a "pure fun no nonsense" daycruiser can be done within a broad range of technologies, materials, equipment etc. It also can be done in a wide range of initial cost (to the same quality), depending on country of origin to mention just one factor. And exactly that was the point I started to consider attentively such a project.
I widely agree with you looking at our target customer, simply the Loa. sorts out the average income client.
Anyway I believe it is at least worth to do some effort, finding out if a real nice sailing machine of the given parameter could be done within that ballpark. Still earning money of course. I do a fully equipped 42ft Lobsterboat below 250.000€ right through the door! And still earn some penny.
To "Hinckley", their boats or trading policy, I´ll humble myself from statements. See my gallery to understand why.:D
btw Eric, I like your design.
Kindest regards
Richard

[RHP]

Many thanks your valued comments. I mentioned 120,000 was reasonable because I accept that construction material and skilled labour plus development costs are not cheap. Any less is not realistic.

But a daysailor is a daysailor, if I want to fancy cruiser there are many to choose from so I would expect a basic layout, fitout and equipment list because anything else is wasted on a daysailor. Again there are top notch marinas for the Haves and regular marinas, ports and floating moorings for the rest of us Have Nots.

My friends and associates sail yachts with less than glossy hulls and do their own maintenance, a lot of them sail wooden classics similar in concept to the Wally Nano which is why that design will always be a winner. This is the market I want to see a 40´daysailor aimed at so the price must be aimed at the middle class boat buyer not the folks with way above average salaries.

A sturdy, good looking yacht that can take a knock and serve the majority of sailors. A sailors boat, not a marina caravan.

[Tanton]

By the lbs. this boat is $100,000.00.
Except, with fancy material and the lifting keel, the tab is $200,000.00.
I forgot the sails, safety gear and taxes.
After so many years, I notice the boxy look of the house. But of course, the required full headroom was a problem to achieve a more sexy look.

[FAST FRED]

When the boat builders get hungry the business model will return to the "old" model.

Today the builder wants 20% to 40% profit per boat , and his dealer "needs another 20% to 25%.

The "old way" was that the entire boat yard would cover all costs and make 10% per year.

Really hard to do today on borrowed cash , but that is a gone concept for many businesses.

FF

[RHP]

Ahhh the voice of reason.


It also strikes me that if Beneteau, Bavaria etc.. can make 38´cruising yachts for the masses coming out at $125,000 basic prices then a day sailor would be both possible and cheaper to produce.

[apex1]

Ahhh the voice of reason.
not unqalified

It also strikes me that if Beneteau, Bavaria etc.. can make 38´cruising yachts for the masses coming out at $125,000 basic prices then a day sailor would be both possible and cheaper to produce.

For smaller plastic boats (massproduction) around 20ft the above margins are about right.
The range we are talking has narrower margins. Yards have (and must have) about 15 to 20 and dealers between 12 and 15%.
A Manufacturer (not a yard) like Bavaria naturally has a market power over his suppliers, a routine and efficiency, a supply chain etc. a little boatbuilder cannot compete. As everybody understands, its just impossible to provide an equal product for the same price. If a busy little yard buys 24 winches p.a. they have to fight for a 15% discount. Bavaria buys 40 per day! What do you assume they have to pay ? Right, 50%;)
But, as always, there are possible ways towards a solution.
Choosing labour intense techniques (instead of efficient but high priced materials and tooling), and producing at low wages (although high in the country of origin) is one.
just my two cent ..... 0,02€ ... naturally
Regards
Richard

[Boston]

interesting read guys
as I read this I keep thinking that more traditional materials may be in line to make a comeback
simpler is cheaper

did I hear a bird
cheep
cheep
cheep

cheers all
B

[daiquiri]

If a busy little yard buys 24 winches p.a. they have to fight for a 15% discount. Bavaria buys 40 per day! What do you assume they have to pay ? Right, 50%;)

One possible solution is to unite forces. One little boatbuilder can obtain 15% discount because he buys only 3-4 winches a month? Then a consortium of, say, 10 small boatbuilders could place an order for 30-40 winches and obtain 30-40% discount.
In order for this thing to happen, small boatbuilders will have to overcome their "your death is my life" mutual attitude and understand that acting together is a matter of their collective life or death.

The other solution is to dig each their own niche, pursue the highest possible qualitative standards and sell their super-equipped boats as unique, high-value, luxury goods.

[daiquiri]

interesting read guys
as I read this I keep thinking that more traditional materials may be in line to make a comeback
simpler is cheaper

did I hear a bird
cheep
cheep
cheep


There is a limit to how cheap you can go if you are not a big, automated, mass-production industry. Boatbuilding is a very specific branch of manufacturing. It takes highly specialized (and therefore properly payed) workforce to create a decent-looking vessel. Talking about pleasure crafts, not work boats.
A client who wants to buy a pleasure boat is pursuing visual aesthetics too, not just a functional object. That means that a boatbuilder has to take care about a thousands of small particulars because every imperfection could mean one client less.
Before we've embarked here into building boats I knew that it wouldn't be simple. But I could never, never have imagined how many small, stupid particulars are there to be taken care about. And it's all handcrafted stuff which means time, a damn lots of time.
So who pays for that time?
We've been expositors at Venice boat show last year... Clients would step on the boat and would then start to look around and behind every corner, touch every wooden surface, open all the hatches, sit on every bed, on every seat, peek into the engine room... You need to have excellence to survive in a market like that. The excellence requires top-class materials and lots of work hours that need to be payed.

[apex1]

One possible solution is to unite forces. One little boatbuilder can obtain 15% discount because he buys only 3-4 winches a month? Then a consortium of, say, 10 small boatbuilders could place an order for 30-40 winches and obtain 30-40% discount.
In order for this thing to happen, small boatbuilders will have to overcome their "your death is my life" mutual attitude and understand that acting together is a matter of their collective life or death.

The other solution is to dig each their own niche, pursue the highest possible qualitative standards and sell their super-equipped boats as unique, high-value, luxury goods.

Nice theory, the former statement (#22), but, you know, theory! I´m not willing to waste my time amalgamating individuals that are convinced their way has to rule the others!

So I have chosen the latter of your solutions! Ages ago.

I fully agree with your post #23.

Regards
Richard

[Boston]

maybe a surplus type approach
a consortium agreeing to buy overstocked or mis-ordered items and run by time share or a common employee

with an obvious leaning toward items typically used in some quantity by all
the rest could be sold to the public for a modest mark up

just throwing it out there
we did that way back when, when I lived deep in the mountains and we didnt want to drive down to town for groceries and supplies
saved us about a hundred mile round trip and the stuff ended up cheaper cause we bought so much of it we could go straight to the suppliers
ended up a nicely stocked little market

[TeddyDiver]

Clients would step on the boat and would then start to look around and behind every corner, touch every wooden surface, open all the hatches, sit on every bed, on every seat, peek into the engine room... You need to have excellence to survive in a market like that. The excellence requires top-class materials and lots of work hours that need to be payed.

Maybe you dealing only with St Tropez (or where ever is the jetset fooling around nowadays) kind of customers. A middle clas point of view, is more practical allthough more diverse too..
What I'm looking first (in any boat) does the deck stand the abuse of scuba tanks or can I scrub fishy slime and blood from it with bucket full of seawater and a broom. Where to toss all that soaking wet gear to dry.. I know I'm in the other end of the spectrum but a lot of daysailers have atleast a bit of somewhat similar concerns..:)

[Fanie]

Haven't read all the threads.... but

What would you like to see on a 40 ft day cruiser?
Since it's a bad omen to have females aboard a ship according ancient myths (checked), but a good one to have a naked one aboard.

My answer would be I would like to see lots of naked females an a 40 ft day cruiser.

[daiquiri]

I would like to see lots of naked females an a 40 ft day cruiser.

ROTFL! :D :D :D

Can we ask to IMO and Coast Guard to make it become a mandatory equipment?

[RHP]

I would like to see lots of naked females an a 40 ft day cruiser.

Only if we can tie them up and tickle them. :D

[timothy22]

Eric, you have designed a seriously pretty boat. That, I think is crucial in a non-essential luxury purchase. Look at all the $200K+ supercars out there. The kind of beauty that compels one to posess it because it is so satisfying. And enough high tech to brag about. And the handling to gratify even the jaded fantasies of those who can afford such a purchase. All the guys want to be you and all the girls want to be with you when you are at the helm. Everything else is negotiable, within reason.
BTW, I complement you also on the G45. Hard dodger and pilothouse. All the berths parallel to the centerline, wow. I could sleep without becoming wadded up at one end of the berth. If I weren't disabled I would have given you a call by now.

[Fanie]

It is quite difficult to say this or that would be cool on a boat. We all have different preferences wrt some things.

I would think if you buy a boat it shouldn't be just that. What I mean is if you want to add something there must be a place where it can be fitted or mounted... ie a tv just to name an example. I wonder what the batteries voltages are... be nice if you have a low power LCD indicator somewhere... can I add solar panels... how much are they charging... etc etc/

It is going to be very difficult to design a boat that would provide for absolutely everything, but if you try it will help some.

[Knut Sand]

Man, three pages... Am I the only one that were thinking something in a yellow bikini....?

:confused:

[Manie B]

Sorry guys its Friday and i couldnt resist

Am I the only one that were thinking something in a yellow bikini....?

Only if we can tie them up and tickle them.



he he :D :D

[FAST FRED]

"As everybody understands, its just impossible to provide an equal product for the same price. If a busy little yard buys 24 winches p.a. they have to fight for a 15% discount. Bavaria buys 40 per day! What do you assume they have to pay ? Right, 50% "

WRONG, When we were boatbuilding as soon as we were an OEM we got almost the same discount as the big boys.

It was 50%+10% with an extra 2% for pre-pay and free shipping on pre-pay.

AS a small builder our prices were probably much better than the big boys who were usually 90-180 days late on bills .

There IS a difference if one has to purchase resin from a factory rep , with drums trucked in , or IF you have a rail line behind the shop , and can by rail car loads direct from the factory..

FF

[apex1]

Man, three pages... Am I the only one that were thinking something in a yellow bikini....?
:confused:
No, see my post #7....red letters:D

[RHP]

Concerning yards clubbing together to buy materials, dont dismiss it, it is extremely common practise for farmers to negotiate fertilizers enmass to achieve discounts. The suppliers go along with it as they gain volume sales lowering their unit cost of production etc..

I maintain the volume manufactuers (I wont call them boat builders....) could bring out a cheap and pretty day sailor as described that would sell like hot cakes. I dont understand this fascination for the upper end of the market.

[apex1]

WRONG, When we were boatbuilding as soon as we were an OEM we got almost the same discount as the big boys.
It was 50%+10% with an extra 2% for pre-pay and free shipping on pre-pay.
AS a small builder our prices were probably much better than the big boys who were usually 90-180 days late on bills .
There IS a difference if one has to purchase resin from a factory rep , with drums trucked in , or IF you have a rail line behind the shop , and can by rail car loads direct from the factory..
FF

You have been lucky FRED,
we are not. I have a big boatyard here under contract and three smaller boatshops. All books and calculations are open for my inspection. And I see quite a big difference in purchase discounts. Maybe the winch was not the best example. You pointed out the resin, which is easier to understand.
But in general it´s just a question of common sense to understand a mechanism that is valid worldwide.
Regards
Richard

[Eric Sponberg]

Thank you Timothy. In some respects, I think I favor a classic touch to my line work in yacht design--that's just me--a product of my fetching up as a yacht designer. My personal preference is boats for offshore voyaging, and the G45 is meant to be my next boat, if ever I get the disposable income to spend it that way.

One could simplify the SC 40 by going with a traditional fixed keel, traditional stayed rig, traditional rudder and still have as pleasant a boat. You would be giving up shipping in a container, and that is a compromise on cost with a potential savings (simplified construction) being offset by a cost increase for higher shipping charges for deck cargo transport. Do a study and it could be an even trade. Alternatively, one could build in the US instead of China, but then the cost of materials and labor go way up as against potentially smaller shipping costs, at least within the US. Compromise, compromise.

I recall back in the mid 1990s, a Dutch fellow named Woody Gazit who was disabled (wheelchair bound) commissioned a 51' aluminum sailing yacht design named Uri from an Israeli designer, Itay Simhony, who was (and maybe still is) working in the Netherlands. It was a pretty neat boat that could fully accommodate a wheelchair, and Mr. Gazit could even sail it single-handed. The whole boat was covered by what looked like a greenhouse almost--lots of glass windows--and all lines could be tended from the inside. Cool boat, probably had a cool price. I know all this because I saved a clipping on it for my files. Well, I digress; is a thread about affordable and good-looking 40' daysailers....

Eric

[Fanie]

Eric,

I like your free standing masts. Very neat.

[FAST FRED]

"Alternatively, one could build in the US instead of China, but then the cost of materials and labor go way up.

Almost slave labor is always cheap ,

but why would you think materials would be cheaper?

Quality resins , glass fiber, lead or bronze for castings are on a world market pricing. NO?

FF

[daiquiri]

Almost slave labor is always cheap

That's the point.
And that is something we, the western world, should fight against instead of using and therefore encouraging it:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy_power/china_inside/slave_labour_china

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/business/worldbusiness/05sweatshop.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/833285/unsafe_working_conditions_in_china.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25567

[chandler]

C'mon, if you can afford a $120,000 daysailor you can afford anything!
Now days a haven 12'5 will cost you 120.
Whats wrong with a builder making a buck, you obviously have more than they will make in a lifetime, probably sponsored by one of whichever bailouts!
Rich get richer the poor get poorer.

[FAST FRED]

"Rich get richer the poor get poorer."

Head out to Cuba , you will love it!

FF

[chandler]

What's that supposed to mean FAST FRED?

[Boston]

looked like a shot across the bow to me

think he just called you "comrade" friend

[chandler]

Boston
That's kind of what I thought.
I stand by what I said though, if you can afford a $120,000.00 day sailor what right do you have to question the right of a small boatyard to make a profit?
I grew up in ct. bunch of rich arrogant rebublicans. Most of the ceos from the bailed out banks with their 9 figure salaries live there, register their cars in NY or NH to save a few bucks and hire illegal immigrants to care for their homes and kids so they don't have to pay legitimate payroll taxes.

[chandler]

Oh and by the way fellow forumites by all means have your boat built overseas for slave labor, save a buck and stimulate the economy!

[apex1]

Oh and by the way fellow forumites by all means have your boat built overseas for slave labor, save a buck and stimulate the economy!

Not every place "overseas" can be brought in conjunction with slave labour I assume.
And we should bear in mind that the customer is forcing the producer to lower price.The average manufacturer (mid tier), is not very happy to move production abroad to survive.

Regards
Richard

[Boston]

now thats an issue to sink ones teeth into

round here we have something called the Davis Bacon act
its a law that ensures that the gov pays prevailing union wage
kinda keeps em honest or as honest as you can ever expect the gov to be
now if that were a worldwide concept you would get your share of people freaking out over a one world gov
but
since what the present system is doing is take a shipwright, say in Germany who is respected for his quality and environmental standards and forces him to compete with say a man with few skills and working in horrible conditions and in complete disregard for the environment in some underdeveloped nation
who by the way is dying for the work

the present worldwide system draws down the wages to the lowest common denominator

the present national system mandated by the Davis Bacon act does the opposite

so a posible solution to this problem might be to implement a minimum world wage at say the average of the developed worlds prevailing union wage

that would effectively keep industry on its home turf and make it less viable to incur the huge shipping costs of doing biz in bf Egypt

my two cents
B

[daiquiri]

a posible solution to this problem might be to implement a minimum world wage at say the average of the developed worlds prevailing union wage that would effectively keep industry on its home turf and make it less viable to incur the huge shipping costs of doing biz in bf Egypt

It is nearly impossible to impose any labor union agreements on a worldwide scale.

But I believe that the globalization will ideally ultimately lead towards an near-equalization of wages on the worldwide scale, though it will be a painful process principally for developed countries.
We will have to accept a general decline in our standard of living, while chinese, korean, morrocan etc. people will see their on the rise.
That's because there is a constant drift of money barycentre from our world towards their, due to western industries re-allocating their production units.
It's like opening a dam which separates two water masses at different levels. The process will continue until some sort of near-equilibrium is reached.

So I believe that this natural evolution of the current global economic system will ultimately lead towards the goal you have wished for.

[apex1]

now thats an issue to sink ones teeth into

round here we have something called the Davis Bacon act
its a law that ensures that the gov pays prevailing union wage
kinda keeps em honest or as honest as you can ever expect the gov to be
now if that were a worldwide concept you would get your share of people freaking out over a one world gov
What a horrible vision
but
since what the present system is doing is take a shipwright, say in Germany who is respected for his quality and environmental standards and forces him to compete with say a man with few skills and working in horrible conditions and in complete disregard for the environment in some underdeveloped nation
who by the way is dying for the work
That is exactly what happens today, and it is forced by customer demands mainly!

the present worldwide system draws down the wages to the lowest common denominator
Example: total cost of labour (not wages) Germany 2002 = 65€ / 2008 = 58€!
Turkey 2002 = 9$ / 2008 12$! India 2002 = 1$ / 2008 = 4$ !!!! all for a skilled shipwright!
the present national system mandated by the Davis Bacon act does the opposite

so a posible solution to this problem might be to implement a minimum world wage at say the average of the developed worlds prevailing union wage
That is impossible imho, and I am happy so. We do not need more regulations
that would effectively keep industry on its home turf and make it less viable to incur the huge shipping costs of doing biz in bf Egypt

my two cents
B

Really valuable statements! thanks.

[apex1]

It is nearly impossible to impose any labor union agreements on a worldwide scale.
And we should be happy with that. Regulations we have more than enough!
But I believe that the globalization will ideally ultimately lead towards an near-equalization of wages on the worldwide scale, though it will be a painful process principally for developed countries.
For our home countries as well, if not more! See my example in the post above!
We will have to accept a general decline in our standard of living, while chinese, korean, morrocan etc. people will see their on the rise.
That's because there is a constant drift of money barycentre from our world towards their, due to western industries re-allocating their production units.
It's like opening a dam which separates two water masses at different levels. The process will continue until some sort of near-equilibrium is reached.

So I believe that this natural evolution of the current global economic system will ultimately lead towards the goal you have wished for. I totally agree


Thank you for this valuable input.

It is hard to understand for the average labourer, that he gave a lifetime of knowledge, sweat and power, to encounter the fact, that he enabled his company to move abroad, destroying his job. But fact is that he asks for the cheapest product himself, he is moving his home industry himself.
Where is the chance for, say Mercedes to compete with a Turkish Bus manufacturer? They went to Turkey (20 years ago) and produce there. That enabled them to keep the German labourer healthy and busy.
So are we to blame, producing in the third world (to very high salaries in these countries)? We still keep our home industry healthy by installing their (high tech) products.
but
I fear the customer will ask for the cheaper Indian engines and electronics after some years. If our industry is not prepared for that, the carousel will keep on turning.
Just my 0,02€
Regards
Richard

[Boston]

then one is forced to accept the present economic difficulties as a result not of only banking error but as a failure to account for this shift in the working class and a lowering of his sallery ( cant spell that one to save my life )
given that the poor slob got screwed on the mortgage deal and then hosed on his wages while at the same time watching many skilled and well paying jobs sail overseas how do you then expect anything less than the system falling apart when that failure is inevitable in the redistribution system you guys are advocating
I am always a fan of a macro economy that favors local biz over industries that ship long distances
ever consider that when you buy say an apple from the large grocery store
although that apple may have been grown just outside of town it probably got shipped to a sorting plant in another state then a holding vasility in another state and then shipped back to be sold posibly only a few miles from were it was grown and yet traveled in some cased literally around the world
its insane the way we ignore the transportation costs of goods that can and should be produced locally but arent because some fool pushing a pencil all day decided he could make a few extra bucks if he only sacrifices the local balanced economies of hole nations and replaces them with consumer driven ones

sorry guys I know Im about to take a few shots on this one
but if we want to get back to some form of stability in the world economy we are going to have to be reasonable about this hole globalization thing
in case no one was paying attention its not working
rather than bring that wages of the third world up to that of the developed world
it has created a bidding war among the poorer countries to see who will accept the lowest wages
it has driven pollution to ridiculous levels
and done little overall but concentrate the wealth

my two cents is we need to return to a more sensible approach
and keep our imports to what it actually makes sense to import
and our shipping to a minimum
this will save oil
save pollution
and create more jobs with less impact
it is also a proven winner in countries that had little choice but to try it
say in Costa Rica or Ecuador were local economies learned to thrive on tourist and renewable forest products and maintain there indigenous and cultural heritage by NOT allowing the big multinationals in

oh well
that should be enough ammunition for you guys to start shooting

have at it but the proofs in the pudding
**** the way you describe it didn't work out

cheers
B

[Boston]

oh
outa respect for whoever started this thread since we got so far off subject we should move this over to a more appropriate thread
say
politics lies and witchcraft
were it belongs
and continue with our 40 footer design

[Tcubed]

<<<< then one is forced to accept the present economic difficulties as a result not of only banking error but as a failure to account for this shift in the working class and a lowering of his sallery ( cant spell that one to save my life )
given that the poor slob got screwed on the mortgage deal and then hosed on his wages while at the same time watching many skilled and well paying jobs sail overseas how do you then expect anything less than the system falling apart when that failure is inevitable in the redistribution system you guys are advocating
I am always a fan of a macro economy that favors local biz over industries that ship long distances
ever consider that when you buy say an apple from the large grocery store
although that apple may have been grown just outside of town it probably got shipped to a sorting plant in another state then a holding vasility in another state and then shipped back to be sold posibly only a few miles from were it was grown and yet traveled in some cased literally around the world
its insane the way we ignore the transportation costs of goods that can and should be produced locally but arent because some fool pushing a pencil all day decided he could make a few extra bucks if he only sacrifices the local balanced economies of hole nations and replaces them with consumer driven ones>>>>>

Hoorah! Some great posts by all!

The world has always been a pretty absurd circus but lately it really puts earlier levels of ridiculous to shame...

I think that the mathematics of the underlying resource and energy economics are coming to the big crunch right now. It is so masked by the extraordinary pyramid we've erected on it though that it is not so obvious so we get lost in credit lingo land, missing the fundamentals. There going to be some serious changes alright and it's not going to be directed by the presidential reality tv show.

The baltic dry index has tumbled 96% in just a few months and that means no more big ships are being bought or made. In fact they're decommissioning all over the place , as in turning in for scrap.

It won't be long till the apple won't do the ridiculous "round the world to get in a supermarket near you" thing anymore.

[apex1]

Boston that was a statement of value and I´m not going to shoot against it.
The world goes mad, but she is´nt driven by greedy bosses or "shareholder value" (the ugliest and most cynical verb imaginable) only. The consumer expects strawberries all year round, or at least accepts that the industry provides such idiotic offers, by paying high amounts for senseless products. Who is going to blame the distributor for making a fortune of that?
I am not advocating the system! I just accept being part of it. When it comes to wages and reasonable subsistence I was always ahead of my competitors and always have won at the end, with a better result.


I am always a fan of a macro economy that favors local biz over industries that ship long distances
At the North sea coast a Dutch company is buying 85% of the shrimps harvest, deep freeze them, bring them to Marocco by truck, defrost them, let Maroccan woman peel them, frost them again, bring them to the North sea coast by truck (there is the main market) and sell them as "fresh"! Global economy!!!
it has created a bidding war among the poorer countries to see who will accept the lowest wages .unfortunately that ist just the plain truth.
it has driven pollution to ridiculous levels
and done little overall but concentrate the wealth

B
And I agree that we hijacked this thread, although it is in direct connection to the original question.

Regards
Richard

[timothy22]

Here's a thought-Everyone who is going to buy a new vehicle this year, buy one made by their own company(ies) in their own country. That way, both the wages and the profits stay home. Second choice would be a vehicle made at home by a foreign company. People who live where they don't make vehicles do as they please.

[daiquiri]

Here's a thought-Everyone who is going to buy a new vehicle this year, buy one made by their own company(ies) in their own country. That way, both the wages and the profits stay home. Second choice would be a vehicle made at home by a foreign company. People who live where they don't make vehicles do as they please.

Nothing like that will ever work, imho. The world has taken it's direction and only some huge, insurmountable crisis might change it. Maybe if we run seriously out of fossil fuels and have to renounce having bananas delivered from Honduras in mid january, for example...

Just go to any mall in your city and see how many items you will find with "Made in U.S.A." label. Apart from some food and drinks, you have excellent probabilities not to find any.

We all have to start accepting and getting used to the fact that national borders are already starting to fade in this globalized world. The economy has broken the ice crust, the rest will follow. Everything goes where money goes.

That is not necessarily negative, it's an opportunity for everyone and the winners will be those who will know how to make the best use of it.

[Boston]

well as someone who day trades I can understand the sentiment completely because basically other than the political glitches in the graph, the a-typically extreme volatility in the market actually helps with predictability and that's what makes money
predictability

thursday I nailed it for a 1.78% gain early in the day
if I had been around for the afternoon drop to a traditional support level and then the expected rally Ild have made a killing
I came home and cried that Ild missed it

but

the manufacturing sector, the produce and commodities sector, and the energy sector, all need a radical rethink with a bend towards localization within the economy
this biz about unbridled world trade has gotten us into a bad patch and we need to show some moderation in the process
there are goods that will do well on a world stage
but there are others that are nonviable to the economic well being of the hole when considered on the world market
identifying those goods and limiting there percentage of imports based on a countries gdp of produced consumables is going to be key

other countries basically already follow this system
its just the us gov had its head up its ass for the last oh say thirty or forty years since we started this most favored trade status thing descending more recently right on down to nafta
Reorge Bush was just the last and biggest idiot to hurry the process along


basically allowing multinational industries to manipulate hole countries into purely consumer based trade cannot work to do anything but bankrupt those countries

the only civilization to ever survive on a purely consumer based economy was the Roman empire and it held a monopoly on one immensely profitable thing literally the energy industry of its day
the slave trade
all slaves sold in the Roman empire were to be originally sold in the Roman market
everything else including sand for the Arena was imported
at night
when no one was looking
course
Julius Caesar also invented the welfare system and the dole
but hey
all in all there system worked
or at least it did till lead pipes caught up with em
then they went nuts

oh
they might have been a little nicer to the neighbors
that didnt work out to well for em in the end either

Hanibal and Hasdrubal nearly finished em off early as well but still there culture and civilization thrived on only one commodity

its the only time any culture has survived any appreciable amount of time being purely consumer based

[apex1]

its just the us gov had its head up its ass for the last oh say thirty or forty years since we started this most favored trade status thing descending more recently right on down to nafta
Reorge Bush was just the last and biggest idiot to hurry the process along
Most of us are happy you got rid of him (but he was just the spokesman of your industry, so, nothing will change really).

basically allowing multinational industries to manipulate hole countries into purely consumer based trade cannot work to do anything but bankrupt those countries
That is just too true. Unfortunately the US are completely ignoring that fact.
Monsanto is only one of them, they are notorious criminals. But... they still do´nt see whats coming up, the empire will strike back! India (the #1 economy of tomorrow) will teach them fear and show them what dominating markets means.


Ten points is all I can add to that.
Regards
Richard