Samson C-Breeze (Boxmast Fears)

[Prtndr37]

Looking at what I would call, a floating hull, of the cover boat for Samson C-Breeze. She has been neglected for well over five years. Been floating for in the same marina for over 15 years. No masts, no "brass work"(ports, cleats, etc), motor condition unknown(looks decent), old sails, interior needs complete updating...basically a lot of work. I've exhausted Google with key word searches, nothing new. Found a dozen or so C-breeze 46' for sale around the world(about 100k) in complete condition. She is completely dry inside, no visible cracks above the water line, but I'm worried about under water, a deteriorated keel, bumps/bruises, no sailing, yada yada. Seller has no interest in haul out inspection in order to complete a sale. Mind you he saved it from the marina, he was friends with the daughter of the 2nd owner. So he says...him being the third owner and living across the country.

My questions....1)What is a realistic price for such a boat? She is...was coast guard certified, has available her entire build process photos, maiden voyage, and original plans/paperwork. 2)Could someone recommend one of those elusive insurance companies in Australia(Oz?) or NZ who might cover a Ferro?

I understand she will not pass a test right now, but would like to know for when she is ready. Even if I have to purchase property. I have the time, I have enough to get started, and finish her through the years. I'm only 30, with a wife of 10 years and two daughters. My parents own a house on a lake with deep water access. Thank you to those who contributed great knowledge to my "Box Mast fears" post.

Now, Let me have it....I need to know roughly what this is worth.

If we don't do it now...will we ever?
C.

[marshmat]

Hi C.,

Sounds like you're at the decision point! So, a few questions to be fired back at you:

- What do the wife and daughters (mostly the wife) think of the boat? When you look at it, does she start talking about what you can do to refit it for the family, or does she say "umm, I have a bad feeling about this thing"? I don't know why, but some boats just have a vibe about them, one way or the other....

- Have you found a surveyor yet who is familiar with ferro construction in particular? I don't think there are that many of them around, but I honestly wouldn't consider the purchase of a ferro hull without a survey by someone knowledgeable in that method of construction. I wouldn't trust my own eyes to see everything that could be a bit unusual.

Now, as to how much she's worth.... well, as a rough guess, I'd take the average price of the 12 or so that you've found for sale, and subtract the cost of the repairs and such that would be needed to bring your candidate boat to comparable condition. But I'm not a surveyor, nor an expert, and appraising a boat is tricky at the best of times. Of course, the lousy economy works to your advantage here, as yacht prices across the board are depressed right now as a lot of people realize they can't afford to pay off their boat loans now that their stocks are collapsing.

[PAR]

If the owner will not swing the haul out, he's not interested in selling the boat. Without the haul out, you can't get insurance or a complete survey (which the insurance company will insist on). It's likely he's hiding something he's well aware of, but rather you not see, until after the sale.

You could dive on the boat, you could also pay to have the boat hauled yourself (if he balks at that, just walk away from it, he's up to no good).

Ferro construction is extremely difficult to properly survey and many insurance companies make you pay a premium for owning one, if they'll even insure you at all. In the USA ferro has a very poor reputation, though this isn't shared in Europe and down under. There are several good reasons they have such a bad reputation and some are well deserved.

Frankly, in this economic environment, if you have an unwilling seller, then it has hidden issues that aren't forth coming. This should tell any reasonable business person it's a "snake bit" deal and act accordingly.

There are lots of "deals" in the current market, with very willing and entertaining sellers. You could end up with a much better boat, from a helpful responsible and willing seller, for the same or less money. Try not to fall in love, remember it's a commodity, not a family member (yet). My instinct upon reading your post is to walk away from the deal before you get hurt.

[Prtndr37]

We will certainly appreciate the questions and comments that will make us think.

1) Yes, she looks and dreams, we even drew up a simple enough conversion to remove the third cabin to open up a "living room" area, while doubling(stacking) two single berths up front in the V, consideration would be paid to the weights of wood removed and added. With a divider curtain in the V, our two daugthers could still bring a friend each, while not being to cramped in case of bad weather....
2) Yes also, bad vibe at first, althought she isn't sure if it was the boat itself, or the way it looks, + the way the seller emails is somewhat fishy.
3) Surveyer.... Was planning on diving the hull myself, looking/feeling for cracks, loose "chips", noncrisp edges of the keel, etc. In the interest of responsibility, I am now currently shopping a diver for hire, I do not want to wait this out till spring. Surveyers are in my opinion, a waste of money. I used to buy cars for a living, I flipped some houses at the begining of our boom, I'm confident on everything else, except the condition of the keel....
I do understand the method principals of ferro, worked with tile an mortar sets of different sorts, never anything comaprable to the size and profound impact of this boat. I would be comfortable making a decent repair. There are no signs of rust streaks inside or out after 4+ years of neglect. Someone did a plywood job up top, sealed and sanded, but not primed or painted. I would have expected some sort of rust, but found absolutely none.

The information that all of you, collectively and objectively, have to offer, fars out weighs, how much BS I would think the surveyer, would be full of. Hell, I bet someone out there, knows someone, who has a connection to the original Samson Marine folks, somebody would be able to tell me about this boat, I bet. I'll track 'em down tomorrow.

Everything happens for a reason,
Cori

PS: My Vibe...was pure, safe, and strong... Salted with caution.

[Prtndr37]

Par,

You hit it it on the head. I did offer to pay and facilitate. His stance the whole time has been the intent of shipping it to San Fran, where he lives, come this summer, doing the same sort of deal with intent to retire, feeling the pinch of the economy like most, if he could sell it for a decent amount he will, but he definitely not giving it away.(Hello Run-On, I do that). Just an odd character, but everything screams scam. I've tracked him, got an address. Peoples homes, for what thats worth, will be involved in the deal....Hidden issues...I really don't think he knows, I think he help out a long time friend, and now he's scared or possibly needs to recover $. His stance against the haul out is: liability, possible damage, "When it comes out of the water, its going on a trailer, and I will deal with what I have when it gets here", or something like that.

Par, you say you wouldn't know exactly what your looking for, do you own a ferro? If not, what type of boat do you own, or have owned? As to the market, if your buying through yachtworld or some other broker, you tend to pay what they say is market value. I perfer auctions: ebay, repo, Gov, Ins., and plain old word of mouth. I've been looking for an ocean going 37+ ft ketch that would have some value where ever we go for about two years now. Bid on many, viewed several, wish I had paid more for one.

You guys provide me with a wonderful outlet,
C.

Sorry for blabbering...with bad grammar.

[Prtndr37]

PS. I really can't afford this boat overall...But we do have a good size chunk of cash that can get us started, 2 years into it, while still leaving us some for lifes emergencies. No loans required, no contractors required either.

[PAR]

I have several boats and a few yachts. I'm not saying I wouldn't know what to look for. I'm saying you can't access the structure very well or easily in a ferro build.

The more I learn about his boat, it's owner and your situation, the more strongly I'd recommend you walk way from the deal. His excuses are just that and a clear indication of intent or possibly lack of it in this case. Let him wait until it's nearly worthless, then he'll call you to see if you're still in the market for a hard to sell boat. Please . . .

If you want to get robbed, use a broker. The best way to get a boat is perform the leg work in person. Private sale, auction, abandoned boats at marinas, storm damaged, etc.

Surveyors are like real estate agents, with many seemingly like they'll tell you just about anything. Amazingly enough, there actually still are real people who can and will access your prospect, without regard for who's paying the bill. I'm one of those surveyors. I don't care if it's a seller or buyer's survey as I don't offer one. You pay up front and you get an accurate assessment of the boat, like it's content or not.

Now, you're 2,000 miles north of me, but frankly, there are thousands of yachts in the size range you're looking at down here. I suspect your area is about the same. Half the market value should be your highest offer. I'd say 50% of the sellers will jump at the chance to unload their yacht.

[Prtndr37]

Thank you Par,

He was asking 23,000, is down to asking 18,500. I told him it was worth 5-10k with a respectable 10k opener, we have reach an agreement at 13k, just can't overcome this hull inspection. I have free range with getting it done via camera or diver or whatever, besides a haul out. Mind you we're frozen here, he's looking to sell someone now, not interested in a binding contract contingent on the hull, essentially taking it off the market on a maybe. I feel I might be over thinking this. Its a concrete boat, with pictures of its upside down construction, its first lift upright, its 50 hour steam tent, its first paint job, etc etc....its concrete, not a Swiss watch. No leaks, no streaks, no visible patches, but definitely scary. You right about not being able to access much from the inside. I'll walk away when I find something worthy of walking away from, not just his squirrely attitude combined with the fact its ferro.

Again, I know what the market value is when completed, what is a decent hull worth....1k 2k 3k 4k 5k 6k....13k?

Any ferro builders out there?

C.

[alan white]

Why not ask the owner for a guarantee of satisfaction of a hull survey? Go through the transaction with the selling price escrowed to a third impartial party, haul the boat, survey, and either break the deal or have the funds okayed for transfer.
If he still balks, he's either a kook or he's hiding something. I've met kooky people in the past who shoot themselves in the foot every time they go to make a deal. They have an attitude about selling (or buying) things that is a product of a distorted childhood.
I showed a 23 ft cruiser I had for sale to a potential buyer at the mooring. When we arrived there I found the engine wouldn't start due to the gas tank being empty. I told him I'd be back in a few mionutes with gas, apologizing for the inconvenience. But the man angrily decided "I wasn't ready to sell the boat", and he nixed the deal right then and there. The boat was a great deal, but that didn't matter to this kook. To him, buying a boat, or anything, was about being wooed, about the seller bowing and scraping, and less about the actual thing he was buying.
Sellers can do the same kind of thing. They feel "lowered" by their financial situation. They'll be "damned" if that's going to effect how they appease the buyer. "I may be desperate, but I'm not going to actually act the part!"
or, "I'm an honest man (which they are), and I refuse to have to prove it!"
What can you do?

[PAR]

Would you buy a $13,000 used car without your trusted mechanic having a good look over her? Would you buy the same car if it looked great, was well maintained by the previous owner, except the last few years, but the current owner will not let you start it?

[Prtndr37]

Funny thing Par,

I used to buy cars at auction for a living. Spending 60k a week of other peoples money, on cars I got to look at briefly, I was good... Motors do not scare me, it could be shot for all I care, just find myself a nice turbo diesel and redo. Its the things that you learn to look for after many years of sailing that I am worried about...You wouldn't know what this tick and that tick are in a car, I do. I don't have a sailing back ground, you guys do.

Please, I'm not looking to get into the politics of the buy, I can handle myself. I hoping to hear from some experience as to what to look for, perhaps a rough idea of value, and a known insurance company over seas that would play ball.

[Prtndr37]

Alan White,

Good insight to the "kooky" behaviors of people. I think I might also fall into that catagory. I tend to be very suspicious, and see the potential negative side of things, worse case scenario. I over think many things in my life, often putting an "out of the box" spin on everyone elses reality. Problems is, down the road, I often been proved right, when others were dismisive.

Still looking for advice on a ferro hull...

So, If we don't do it now, will we ever?

C.

[PAR]

You'll find hulls in that condition and that level of equipment/systems, etc. aren't especially valuable. This is particularly true of ferro in the USA. Just trying to insure it will offer some clues to the value placed on it, by those who have had to make pay outs against them.

It's possible you could find an overseas insurer, but they'll insist on a survey and understandably so. I'm a surveyor for the major wooden boat insurer in Florida and they require a survey on all new policies, which I suspect is an industry wide standard.

From my experience the place you need to look, as you've already guessed is the keel. I've seen them with exposed armatures which rusts quickly and literally pops off the concrete, exposing more wire. Lets hope it's had a reasonably uneventful life and the keel is unbreached.

I'd imagine you'll have a few months to wait before you can put divers in the water, but this would be a minimum requirement, if I was the purchaser. Of course you're not going to get around a survey unless you know a less then scrupulous one that will write up a report how ever you like.

Another thing to look for is what some are calling "blisters". There are several possible reasons for these to occur, but in cold climates, it's usually associated with moisture ingress into the surface of the concrete (for whatever reason) which then expands while freezing, breaking up the concrete in localized areas. If not too extensive, these can be easily repaired, though is a tedious and time consuming affair.

Electrolysis is another issue, which I will not get deeply into, mostly because it's very difficult to examine without an X-ray machine. Visible signs will be noticeable under the LWL, particularly on the running gear (shaft, prop, strut, etc.). Some signs may be visible inside the boat on the shaft, motor mounts, rudder port, strut attachment bolts, etc. Also check for bonding of the major metal components and the general condition around the bonding straps and wires.

[Prtndr37]

What are the signs of electrolysis on the shaft, motormounts, rudder port?

Have a driver ready for this weekend, boat is in an area were they cycle water, not just a hull bubbler. My instructions are to look for cracks, try for "chips", a visual of her keel edges...crisp and clean, or worn and rounded. he will also look for signs of repair, noted by a pattern...round/square/triangle/mishaped, but a loop line of any sort...prop condition, with a spin from inside by hand, rudder operation, perhaps even a series of "grid-pattern" knocks by hand, listening inside for a constant thickness. Given that this boat was choosen to represent the samson c-breeze name, is it acurate to assume, samson approved of this boat, or merely just coincidence. She was built in 1972...full sets of pictures, history...

Waiting for the weekend,
C.

[Prtndr37]

PS: Only jumping ahead on the insurance. I want to know its possible. I understand the intial investment is a gamble till the day she's recertified, and documental for the scrupulus approval of said insurance company.

[diwebb]

Hi,
ferro cement can be a real liability but can also affer great bargains. As far as insurance goes look only at liability as this is what marinas want for the boat to be there. If you own a ferro boat then do not even think of replacement insurance as you will save enough on premiums to cover any repair costs for damage to the hull. When buying a ferro boat give no value to the hull, buy it for the gear, motor, sails, mast and rigging etc etc. This is what a ferro boat is worth in the marketplace. For the $13,000.00 that you have agreed on, is the gear worth that? ( could you sell the gear for sufficient to recoup your costs if the hull proved to be faulty and not economically repairable). If, taking the above approach, the deal seems OK, then go ahead. Ferro boats can make excellent cruising boats and by your description of the boat and with a reasonable report from the diver, I would say that the project makes sense economically.
All the best.
David

[CCom54]

Hi C,
So what did the diver find?

C**2

[Prtndr37]

Diver found a smooth and visually sound hull. No Cracks, flakes, or visible repairs.

Unfortunately my wife and daughters were not keen on the amount of time I would dedicate to this project, considering the 60+ hours I normally work a week.

The boat was sabotaged by another shopper. She sank, was refloated within 36 hrs. She needs to be saved. The seller and I reached an price of 4,500 dollars. He has everything except for the masts. This coming weekend, a salvager is going to strip her of recyclables, including the engine.

Some one save her. Craigslist, Detroit, Boats, keyword "Sailboat". Tell him I sent you.

Cori

[CCom54]

Hi Cori,
The reason I ask about the results from the dive is that I'm the one he's trying to sell her to now. It's a big project especially now that all is soaked with water and diesel below decks. It's quite a mess down there and of course everything above needs a re-do. He had a different story for me about the cause of the sinking and what your final agreed price was (but I expect that). The engine sunk as well and has sat in single digit temps since the boat was raised without anyone blowing her out. At this point the engine block may be busted due to ice so it needs checking. We're negotiating prior to it going to salvage so I may save the boat yet. Thanks for the information. I'll keep you informed of status and you're welcome to join in on the overhaul and sailing if it works out.

Chris

[CCom54]

I agree, someone should save this boat. Decided I'm too inexperienced and underfunded to make this happen and I encourage anyone interested to check it out.

Chris

[Prtndr37]

He is an interesting character, as you should be able to gather from my previous posts. Regarding the sinking...sabotage was my conclusion. I viewed her back in Jan., she was dry, and you could tell she had never took on water before. It's a shame he did not have her dried out properly. I was going to go place heater and get the air moving the right way, but didn't for fear of liability. If I can raise the 10k needed to buy her, and get her to my side of the state, I probably will still buy. Buying with my money vs. family money, I will be able to put her aside and do her with cash in hand as I go. I did view the sails, anchors, met the "associate", viewed title, plans, notes through out her history.

This is the rare ferro that has all her documents, but is on life support via an out of town owner.

I exhausted google on everything ferro, became attached to the idea of this boat, but hit a wall at the moment of truth with my wife. Her gut says no, with the economy and all. Mine says NOW, with the economy and all. Wood for the Spars cost $4,600 here in GR. The guys on this site gave good advice to my previous posting. The seller does appear to have all the riging...

Let me know if I can answer any questions.

Cori

[CCom54]

Yeah, I found your postings while doing a massive amount of research on ferro-cement boats after I visited the Moonshadow. After visiting her once the Seller didn't want me diving or checking anything more until I put a deposit down. Very fishy. So, it was good to hear from you about the results of your inspection. They do have a heater going but that doesn't touch the engine compartment. Glad to hear you've checked out all of the equipment and paperwork. Those masts sound like an interesting project too.

[Prtndr37]

Yeah, J. is definitely a fishy character. I was unsure about the legitimacy of the deal also. However, decided that I'm nobody to judge ones quirks. They do have all the paperwork, the marina backs up the story. The marina, however, will not touch the boat. You will have to have her towed around to the marina next door, they will lift her. They also have a line on a guy who will transport. Decent prices. The mast's, seem simple enough, just time and accuracy. With the economy the way it is, you should be able to find an experienced wood worker with all the tools to assist.

The boat is worth the time and money if you take her over seas. Check out sailsamal.com. A couple doing exactly what I want to do, in the same exact boat.

C.

[CCom54]

Thanks C., J. is an interesting person. I hit it off with J. but he is a car salesman and he knows how to work a deal. Comes off as a pitch sometimes. But everything he has said has been basically honest enough. I had to check facts though to be sure and you've helped with that. D. has been helpful telling me about the history and getting info from her dad. All are good people. You've obviously done your homework on this and been very diligent in checking it out. I'll look into that link you sent.

Chris

[jobberone]

good luck

[jobberone]

You can't just inspect the hull by diving. For one thing there is likely so much build up it's going to be hard to get it all off anyway. I doubt he's cleaned it yearly.

Also this ferrocement boat must be hauled out to see if it can even support it's own weight. If its able to do that, isn't leeching rust, and is otherwise structurally sound then go for it. That's one reason he might not want it out. He sounds like a person who just can't bear to sell stuff even though he's not even using it. Some will let it become outdated and unused or rot rather than sell it for what its really worth. That's anything and not just boats.

I wouldn't waste anymore time with it. Tell him you'll buy the boat for x dollars (and I wouldn't pay much) as long as you can haul it out and have it inspected. Put 10% of the agreed on price in escrow with a third party with completion of the deal if it passes your criteria. If it passes you got a 'boat' and if not then you only pay for the haul out which he isn't going to pay for. Factor that into your price for the boat.

Personally you can get ferrocement boat projects for a song if you look. And they won't have sat for a long time. Less than 30K can buy you a Samson or Hartley (just make sure its really pro built) in a size boat you can sail on your lake now. They survey just as easily as this one.

You can also ask around harbors and see if you can claim abandoned boats. I'm sure there are some on here who can answer how to go about that. I wouldn't get 'married' to this particular boat.

I want to thank you for your post. It's just really pointed out to me that I just need to go out and buy a decent boat and get sailing. I've been looking for a couple of months trying to get it as right as possible. Buy what you can afford and go sailing. You can get a boat you and your family like and they can all decide if they like sailing or not. If they do buy your project and build yourself what you want; while you're sailing.

BTW, if you're into cars then you know it's cheaper to buy someones elses fixer upper than for you to fix it up.

JMO.

[bistros]

Read through this thread and I've concluded I would run, not walk away. In today's economic climate there will be better boats at better prices showing up regularly.

Right now anyone with cash is in the driver's seat - it is a buyer's market. If a seller isn't willing to play ball, walk. If they suddenly become reasonable on walking, do not turn around.

I would never consider a guarantee from a seller as worthwhile - you have no idea what their liabilities are or who is first in line for cash if they get some. Do you think you can get in front of the IRS or the courts? Never.

Whatever you do, get a full survey of the boat and have the estimated repair costs immediately deducted from the market value. This is the maximum you should pay - and start a lot lower than that. If the seller isn't willing to pay for the survey and you are in love with the boat, have them agree that the survey cost shall be deducted from the final sale price.

For what it's worth, those are my thoughts.

In addition, I would NEVER give a deposit directly to a seller - I would do so ONLY through an escrow arrangment at your lawyers with a clear definition of what conditions trigger release of funds. If the seller avoids this, again run not walk away.


--
Bill

[Prtndr37]

Just as an update.....

Stalled out on this purchase, a free ferro came to market, via the original builder. Unfortunately he let it freeze in every year since the 80's. Needs massive TLC plus a set of sails. I touched basis with the MoonShadow owner, hoping to get a better deal, 2 for 1, only to have him call the giver of the free one and tell him that I was full of ****, was going to string him along and screw him in the end. Beware of dealings with the MoonShadow. It is unfortunate, as I feel MoonShadow as a hull is sound and beautiful.

In regards to a free ferro...remember, odds are that you can scrap her to recover cost, not time, but basic money. My free ferro has 7,500 lbs of lead in the keel....@ .20-.40 cents a pound.

Best of luck to all,
C.

[CCom54]

Hi C.,

After expenses levied for towing, tearing it down, and ecologically disposing of waste, you'll maybe break even. Not enough brass to warrant the effort and the Perkins was sunk with no attempt to blow it out... including gearbox and shaft bearings. You know the cost of professionally built masts is $25K or more. I'm being told by experienced boat restorers to go dig a deep hole and throw my money in it...then cover. But, I understand your passion for this boat.

BTW, I visited that other boat last weekend. "B" is a great older gentlemen but it is a boat in great need too. It's unfortunate if "J" did really act that way toward him.

Take care,
Chris

[CCom54]

C.,
Looks like I misread you. I see now you were talking about the lead in the free boat. My mistake. My comment about the lead still applies but I was describing the condition of the Moonshadow in the rest of that paragraph. Did you actually see the free boat? Skin coat is gone below the waterline. Quite a sight. I wondered if it could even be towed far without going down.
Take care,
Chris

[Prtndr37]

Yeah, I was referring to the free one. I did visit it, I did claim it. Below the water line(perhaps a foot visible) seemed "normal". At the water line, on the other hand, represents 25 years of freezing in each winter. B. has offered to do the tow, so as long as she lifts ok, rests on the trailer, and survives the trip, perhaps she could be a good boat too. I was not too impressed with the quality of the hull all around, expansion is apparent on the toerail joints. However, I do have a third generation mason at my disposal, so we'll see.

J. and the MoonShadow....not too sure what his issue is. I would never conduct myself in a manner as he has. He's been at 5k, if he would take 2.5k, I would probably buy it and make one out of two, leaving mast to be constructed. Cost on sitka is 4,600, plenty of woodworkers around to assist on the job. 10k max., not 25k.

Life is only the adventure you make it,
Cori

[CCom54]

You didn't see the wire mesh exposed? B. and I talked about it. His explanation was that he was told the wrong mix for the skin coat.

[Prtndr37]

Well of course I saw that, he and I also talked in regards to the skim coat. His negativity regarding his advising partner was no secret. However, I do believe that him allowing her to freeze in every winter, exaggerated the problem. The damage visible would have occured to any ferro left to the ice. The fact she still floats says much to the structural integrity. The skim coat at the water line being ground away was to be expected. It's the expansion damage elsewhere that worries me.

Curious, when did you view it, and why didn't you take it?

Gambling man

[CCom54]

The freebee?...I went on the first Saturday after it was listed. Why didn't I take it? Well, I think the hull (and craftsmanship) speaks for itself but then the kluged masts, rotting deck, cramped below decks that looks more like a death trap, an engine that looks to be a total loss, bad electricals, a cheap homemade woodburning stove mounted to a bulkhead... I could go on. I wouldn't waste my time and money.

Even gambling men have to know when to fold 'em.

[CCom54]

Hi C.,
Congrats on obtaining the Moonshadow!!! What a deal aye!? :D I know you'll do right by her. J offered her to me last week but the employment situation suddenly turned shaky this week and I had to decline. This boat is definitely no gamble. You and your family will enjoy it for years to come. Please send some updates along as you restore her. D and I would like to hear back. Hope the transport to your local waters goes smoothly.

Chris

[Prtndr37]

Hey Chris,

I plan on starting a site as so many are interested in her "rebirth". I'll be sure to post a link here when I have it. "D." wouldn't happen to stand for Dawn, would it?

Cori

[CCom54]

Hey Cori,

Yep it's Dawn. She has the engine manual and wants to get it to you. J. had never gotten it from Capt. Ed. I did find a site with a good (and free) reproduction of the manual but it took some looking. There are some out there that have really bad scans. Anyways, I'm sure you'd like the original one that came with Moonshadow.

Should be great fun to watch your progress. Good idea on setting up that site to see your postings. I envy you the journey ahead. :) Let us know when you get it set up.

Chris

[CCom54]

Cori,
Don't know if you've had a chance to respond to Dawn yet. Capt' Ed just passed away. Would be nice to hear how things are going with Moonshadow.
Thanks.