single sailing

[bill coleman]

I am in the "investigative" stage. never been on a sail boat- will be soon. Can a 65' boat be rigged, modified, engineered, etc., to be safely handled single handed? is it worth considering? i'm not sure i have anyone that wants to go every where i want to go.

[PortTacker]

Yes. Easily.

But not for distance voyaging by a novice. Period.
A sailor with sufficient skill can sail any boat, anywhere, any time (more or less) and deal with what comes.
But the best boat in the world won't save you if you don't know what you're doing.

[alan white]

Bill, do you know what an Alcort Sunfish is?

[bill coleman]

alan,

I looked it up. sounds like your hint is start small to learn. correct?

[alan white]

Yes, that was the idea. I couldn't offer better advice. It's how I learned and likely how most sailors here started.

[robherc]

Bill;

In other places, I've seen MANY couples (mostly retired ones) who sailed HUGE (upwards of 75') sailing yachts with only the two of them, and safely. But, like everyone else in here is telling you, they were EXPERIENCED sailing couples...I'll stick with smaller boats until I've built up my skills, confidence, and experience. :)

[PAR]

Bill, as has been hinted at and bluntly blurted forth, single handling a large vessel is a matter of experience. In terms of "passage making", that is to cover large bodies of water to get some place you desire, you'll need to understand more then just basic sailing. Navigation, how to read the weather, how to read the sea, understanding the systems and equipment aboard and their maintenance routines, plus of host of other "sailor" stuff.

It would be possible for you to take a few sailing courses, which could provide you enough understanding of the systems, which strings to tug on and why. Many of these courses also offer off shore levels of experience. A primer for massage making if you will.

The bottom line is yes, you can set up a large sailboat for single handing, but there are many solely personal choices you'll need to make, in regard to the way things are arranged, so you can be comfortably accommodated. To successfully make these choices, you need experience. Some of this can be had in a sailing course, but frankly, the vast majority of what you'll need to know has to be entrenched deeply into your muscle memory. You can't be looking things up on a "cheat sheet" when something needs to be done. It must be committed to instinctive reaction, not just memorization.

The best advise is to get on a sailboat (any), preferably a little cruiser, like a Catalina 22 or similar. You will not have the spacious accommodations of a 60' yacht, but everything you need to initially learn is right there. In fact, this class of little "pocket yacht" can be found every where, usually fairly inexpensively. It would make a good stepping stone to educate your sea legs.

[RHP]

Bill;

In other places, I've seen MANY couples (mostly retired ones) who sailed HUGE (upwards of 75') sailing yachts with only the two of them, and safely. But, like everyone else in here is telling you, they were EXPERIENCED sailing couples...I'll stick with smaller boats until I've built up my skills, confidence, and experience. :)

BNegs the question WHY in the world would a couple want a 75' yacht? They dont get on?

A modern 40' is way more than sufficient.

[robherc]

Begs the question WHY in the world would a couple want a 75' yacht?

I guess they just have WAY too much money to burn...esp. since I saw pics/stories on some of them on custom yacht designers' &/or builders' sites...guess maybe buying a 95' custom sailing yacht is the next logical thing to do after buying a MLB team, if you still haven't burned enough money yet!

[apex1]

BNegs the question WHY in the world would a couple want a 75' yacht? They dont get on?
A modern 40' is way more than sufficient.

Speed RHP Speed if not just to swank.
See the Dashews
Regards
Richard

[PAR]

Most novice sailors or would be world cruisers want or desire a fairly large yacht (thinking this is what they need). They get this class of yacht then trade down to a more manageable size. Most experienced cruisers, trade up in size to they get "comfortable" then they stay put.

[apex1]

Most novice sailors or would be world cruisers want or desire a fairly large yacht (thinking this is what they need). They get this class of yacht then trade down to a more manageable size. Most experienced cruisers, trade up in size to they get "comfortable" then they stay put.

You´re so right here. I step down actually to a "half the size, no crew" boat !;)
Regard
Richard

[TeddyDiver]

i'm not sure i have anyone that wants to go every where i want to go.
:D I'm sure you will find someone.. to anywhere... However if you you limit your choices to females it's more of a personality issue;)

[daiquiri]

Bill, if you want to learn and have a lots of solo fun (with no sexual double-sense) without spending too much, I suggest you to look for a used Laser class boat. I just love that little beast. :D

[kerosene]

I am with the rest of the crowd. I am not a sailor - just a little training experience with 14" boats. Been on bigger ones but not really as a crucial member - more of a passenger.

But same (start small) principle goes for anything in my opinion. I ride motorbikes and started as a kid with a 50c thing that I rode like a madman for 4 years while starting to play with bigger dirt bikes. Hopping on a big bike was natural and easy to learn as I knew the basics from something that didn't scre the crap out of me.

fast forward few years. I work in a company of about 100 people and every now and then we have some fool who wants to get into bikes. Me and my buddy who road races 125cc 2-stroke always try to talk these guys to buys something small that they can learn on - but no - they insist on getting a 750-R bikes with 130+ horsepower. Because they like the looks and want to be bad ass. The irony is that they will never become badass because they are scared (for a reason) of the power and are truly never in control - gunning on a straight road is not being in control.

Had they bought something cheap for 1st year they would hev learnt much much faster, they would have saved money - a beater bike costs less than good insurance on a R-bike. And you can always sell it for almost as much as you paid for it.

As a result my friend with 40hp 125cc gets a laptime of 1:30 and the fellow with 140hp has lap time of ~2 minutes. The guy with 30 second slower laps talks about sliding the rear wheel and all kinds of motoGP stuff and wants a 1000cc bike. The 40hp guy just knows how to ride.

Another thing with bikes - and I think this goes well with boats - is that buys (or rent) something cheap 1st - learn on it without huge commitment. Then later you will know if you really like it or not (chances are that your 22 foot 5,000$ boat stays in the moorings most of the time) - not only will you learn how to sail but you will figure out if its is for you and most importantly - what it is that you like most. Is it weekend cruising, day trips or is it really that you want to go further. Same way with bikes - buy a neutral standard bike to learn on - then after a yer will know if you really want a commuter, a cruiser a tourer or a racer.

[marshmat]

The Sunfish is flippin' awesome to play with. It's simple, responsive, and you can capsize it and right it yourself without having to worry about sinking it. Sooner or later I'll get around to bigger sailboats, of course....

Most couples I know with sailboats have things in the 30' range. A couple of Nonsuch catboats, a C&C, that sort of thing. The few offshore folks who make it this far up the Great Lakes typically have a cutter or ketch of 40 feet or so. I've seen a couple of 60+ footers, but they always have crew or friends.

[PAR]

I think he'd be better in a slower reacting craft then a dinghy or board boat. A 20' to 24' something, with being closer to 20' better then 24'. Mistakes happen slower and they're less likely to drop him in the drink for his troubles. It'll have some minimal systems, winches, rigging, vangs, sail tracks, on board water system, electrical system and inboard. These are the things he'll need to learn as well, particularly if heading into deep water alone.

No Laser or Sunfish is going to help him handle a rolled up jib or get a winch over ride cleared up. Sailing skills will come naturally. It's usually better to let them get excited on their own, then to have them get their butt wet on their first outing. A nice casual sail in a Hunter 22.5 in a easy breeze, will do more for the insecurities of a novice, then swimming after your capsized dinghy, for a mistake you didn't realize you made.

Again, a bigger boat like mentioned, will react slower and not reward a mistake with capsize.

You can find one in fair condition for not very much and a few more grand will get one complete and in good shape. He can also relate what he's learned from a sailing course much easier to this size and class of boat, then a dinghy or board boat.

At least that's what this old sailing instructor's recommendations are.

[alan white]

Last summer I helped a novice (a rank one) to purchase a 21 ft O'day weekender. He wouldn't be seen dead on anything less, and so I did my best to guide him.
The boat was a steal at $1200 with trailer. Within a few days of purchase, the boat hit the water.
Off we all went. He insisted on including his family and even a guest for the first sail. All wore shoes, and there were people all opver the place---- stepping on sheets, my feet, getting in the way.
We managed to do some actual sailing until a nut loosed from the mast cross-bolt that held the shroud tangs. Suddenly the port shroud was no more and I managed to grab the tiller and tack to avoid losing the mast.
I glanced at the groups faces and all of them were just as carefree as if they'd only spilled their drinks.
I had done my best beforehand insisting that we slow things down, go alone, go over the boat slowly. It became obvious however that the new sailboat owner was going to be "in charge".
Only my quick maneuvering had saved the mast, which we repaired easily the same day. Afterwards, I stayed away from the boat and its captain, who continued to go out with two kids and wife virtually every time he sailed.
Through the summer, they went out a few more times, and each tyime was rife with one or more emergencies. Luckily, nothing too terrible happened, and the cost was only gear and pride.
But it could easily have been different.
Here's an example of someone who ought to have spent at least a season on a boat too small to take others aboard (unless maybe one crew in a bathing suit).
Things do happen slower aboard a bigger boat. That's exactly why I think the experience of a small harmless but quick-reacting boat like a Sunfish is invaluable to the novice sailor.
There is a stream of consciousness that sees a situation like a gybe about to happen and experience knows what should happen next. The sailor looks away for a moment to notice a blasting gust ahead and then back and he's suddenly aware that the main sheet is coiled around Johnny's leg and he immediately grabs the boy and hands him forward. The kid's okay only because his dad knows that what happens on a small pond boat also happens to boats a lot more powerful.
What is the lesson here? I think PAR is correct, and yet not in every case. I believe it all depends on the person involved.
Ideally, a person can learn anything because they anticipate consequences rationally, without having to actually suffer pain or displeasure. The hard-knocks school (which I went to) teaches its lessons by etching them indelibly in the subconscious.
The most important aspect in learning sailing in any good-sized boat is giving yourself the opportunity to concentrate on what's happening aboard and around you. Your shipmates, if any, should be just as aware as you are, and preferably they should be a single seasoned sailor at least some of the time.

[PortTacker]

Last
Things do happen slower aboard a bigger boat. That's exactly why I think the experience of a small harmless but quick-reacting boat like a Sunfish is invaluable to the novice sailor.
There is a stream of consciousness that sees a situation like a gybe about to happen and experience knows what should happen next.....because his dad knows that what happens on a small pond boat also happens to boats a lot more powerful.
What is the lesson here? I think PAR is correct, and yet not in every case. I believe it all depends on the person involved.
Ideally, a person can learn anything because they anticipate consequences rationally, without having to actually suffer pain or displeasure. The hard-knocks school (which I went to) teaches its lessons by etching them indelibly in the subconscious.
The most important aspect in learning sailing in any good-sized boat is giving yourself the opportunity to concentrate on what's happening aboard and around you. Your shipmates, if any, should be just as aware as you are, and preferably they should be a single seasoned sailor at least some of the time.


Utterly correct.
Sailing for 38 years, beginning with a Snark, then Sunfish, etc. Today, I would not hesitate (much) to sail a 40 footer to Hawaii, but even then I'd choose crew carefully. ;-) All those years in small boats teach you things you'll never learn on a big boat. Decades of round the buoys racing hone those skills too, you can get more boathandling experience in a season of racing than a decade of average cruising (and probably learn it right the first time too..)

Mr Coleman:
Perhaps do some reading?
Here's a thought - Read a couple of Hal Roth's books. I suggest Two Around Cape Horn, and Two On a Big Ocean.
Hal more than many does write about the sailing, not just the places they visit. It's a great way to get a window into what it's like out there, and what daily life on board is like. He does not sugar coat anything, but won't scare the crap of you either.
(Joshua Slocum's book is a classic, but he, like many others downplays most of the sailing, would make you believe it was easy - only an experienced sailor recognises that he stoically leaves out the hardships and modestly does not discuss the incredible seamanship and navigations skills he certainly posessed..)
Maurice Griffith's books are great too.
Then perhaps some crusing sailor guidebooks - they are quite numerous - how to outfit a boat, cruising skills etc. Gain a decent working knowlege of the concepts and skills and challenges. There's a lot to it, but its engaging, fun, and rewarding to learn those skills.
Perhaps for a totally different insight - try something like Ellen MacArthur's book Taking On the World. Even us mere mortals can learn from her story.

[RHP]

The first 'big boat' I owned was a 24' Achilles fin keel yacht and what a wonderful yacht to learn on, forgiving yet fast, massive sense of satisfaction. I did a Day Skipper's course because I accepted the responsibility of taking others out on the water lay with the skipper despite the fact I had sailed for years on smaller boats.

We cruised, we raced, we got drunk and we had a few too-exciting wild rides when it would have been safer to have stayed on the mooring.

I still miss that boat, bigger boats (like big motorbikes) are never as much fun to sail as that first boat.

Start small Bill and make your mistakes cheap, you'll enjoy the bigger boat when you get there more.

[apex1]

I still miss that boat, bigger boats (like big motorbikes) are never as much fun to sail as that first boat.


So true, so true....says the Haybusaman..

Regards
Richard

[PAR]

Having taught dozens of lubbers to sail, I've found kids have no problems auguring one in, happily coming back for more. While adults want to know if you have insurance, how deep the water is and if their is a PFD for everyone aboard "just in case".

Most adults, that have limited or no water exposure time, even those that can swim well, do fear being farther from shore then they can swim. I've seen it happen time and time again. Everyone's happy and enjoying themselves until they realize they can't see shore or that it has receded past the point they could hopefully manage. A change comes over them and things get silent. I typically would stop the boat and have a little discussion at this point, to relieve their worries. Of course it's a matter of personalities, which a good skipper or instructor recognizes quickly, ideally having a plan for each.

Some simply by into the idea that you (the skipper) are not going to let anything happen and if it does, you can manage all issues. Others struggle until they realize that nothing bad seems to be happening and my distraction techniques start paying off. Yet some, usual alpha males, just can't accept the subornation role and plot against you. I've run across quite few of these and I usually just humble them as quickly as possible with their lack of understanding. This makes them feel as though the "have" to learn this sailing crap or forever be labeled as the one who didn't get it. This is about as unacceptable a thing an alpha can stand and they quickly pick it up. It's helpful if you slowly dole in some responsibility which lets them have some level of dominance, their live blood.

I agree that you'll gain much more from a dinghy, but adults need to be convinced they'll like this sailing thing in the first place. This is where a bigger boat pays off.

In regard to the original poster, who's interested in a large yacht. A pocket yacht, such as I mentioned is the best way to remain safe, learn the skills while not splashing family members in the drink. The other benefits are this class of boat will have similar, if a lot smaller, equipment that the big boat will. Familiarizing himself with its operation right from the beginning will place him ahead of the class. His sail shaping and boat handling skills will take longer, but it's not especially necessary at that point of a sailor's development. Operating all the gear safely, efficiently and no looking a an object on the deck and wondering what is does, is more important then how to pump a halyard to initiate a plane.

Alan, no disrespect intended, but you made several mistakes with your outing last summer, which I'm sure you're aware of. The first and most important is never let the crew run the boat. The skipper is always in charge and this has to be clear from to outset. I've become a regular Capt. Blithe on a few occasions in order to establish control of an uppity crew or guests. I even "accidentally" pushed a fellow in once to control a bunch of half drunk doctors out for a weekend cruise. They straightened up fairly quickly after that.

[alan white]

"Alan, no disrespect intended, but you made several mistakes with your outing last summer, which I'm sure you're aware of. The first and most important is never let the crew run the boat. The skipper is always in charge and this has to be clear from to outset. I've become a regular Capt. Blithe on a few occasions in order to establish control of an uppity crew or guests. I even "accidentally" pushed a fellow in once to control a bunch of half drunk doctors out for a weekend cruise. They straightened up fairly quickly after that."

Yes, I made a few mistakes. Not like me either, and it wouldn't have occurred except that the boat's owner was also paying me large sums of money to remodel his house at the time. In addition, he sprung the whole family thing on me at the last minute. Politically, I suppose I knew I was in for it.
No, ask anyone, I usually make sure everyone understands who is in charge. I'll likely be giving lessons this coming Summer and I'll be in my own boat.
I already take people out frequently for the company and I keep the crew numbers low-- usually myself and two more tops.
I like two crew as it's good to let one take the helm while I do my best to disregard them, conversing with the other. This loosens the helmsman up
and they relax enough to feel the boat's reactions to their input.

[Knut Sand]

Several years ago, I bought a 26' Albin sailboat together with a friend, the idea was to try it out. I had some minor experiences with sailing earlier; chrashed a dinghy (optimist dinghy) keel damage.... and a 24' Firling, sailed that single handed some weeks. So my advice would be go for something like that, that you can handle.

Together with the 26', I also bought a small leaflet; "Sailtrim on the hour" (Dedekam think its only in Norwegian), sized approximately same as a donald duck magazine, equally understandable. Some of the best spent money ever. The boat had a rollup genova sail and autohelmet, useful, can stroll around and figure things out.;) Drink coffee, figure some more.... The only thing "wrong" with that leaflet I bought about the sailing issue, was that it should have pointed out with big red letters the importance of training for reefing of the sails.... and ropes on the deck for securing the personell, on the first page....

The leaflet was good, it was my ignorance that made me start the learning process... Well sort of....:D

I enjoy sailing. Have no sailboat now, its not the best kinda boat when you have tried on the family, found out that one of the kids turn green the minute the car enters the harbour, one other is totally uninterested, and the 3rd is small enough to always end up in harms way... And wife doesnt always fancy the idea of spending time to get to a place. So; now I have a small boat, diesel. and a small dinghy, outboard. Sailboat is on the "to get list" in the future somewhere. And then probably in the 28' - 32' size (I know for a fact that a boat in that size, is something I can handle single handed with some confidence, if equipped right for me, above that size the doubt factor clicks in....Thats what feel right for me, you may get your own preferences, depending on experience, so; as stated above; start gather experience..:cool:

A 24' sized boat will function for smaller trips AND you can stay overnight in it, expanding the weekends somewhat. But as other have stated here; a quick sailing dinghy is fun, unforgiving, and a helluva good teacher.

Whatever you choose; I can tell you, your probably on the right track.:D
(on the other hand; come to think of it 1; there are people that dont fit in a sailboat, any sailboat.... come to think of it 2; some people should never be in any boat...., cross my fingers and hope youre not one of them. ;) )

[bill coleman]

sounds like sound advice. you guys did slow down a dream a little bit. i guess doing the dreaming is half the fun. see you on the water......someday.

thanks to all,

[kerosene]

its not like the learning is boring... :) that is the fun part.

[Brent Swain]

Why 65 feet? What's the point? Smaller would make more sense.
Brent

[PortTacker]

sounds like sound advice. you guys did slow down a dream a little bit. i guess doing the dreaming is half the fun. see you on the water......someday.

thanks to all,

Don't lose the dream!
But like some dreams, it really does have to be earned, in stages - blue water adventuring alone is not something money can buy. It requires experience.

[FAST FRED]

Offshore Big is fine as a remarkable tiny amount of sail will give MOST of the speed .

Docking a big boat alone is a different problem.

FF

[JotM]

Anyone thought of something "in between", like a Wayfarer (http://www.wayfarer-international.org/)?

It will react promptly, yet not as sharp as a Laser. It has been and still is used in many places around the world for pretty serious cruising too. (coastal cruising along Maine and Nova Scotia, Scotland to Ireland, UK to Denmark, UK to Norway, UK to Iceland (http://www.amazon.com/Ocean-Crossing-Wayfarer-Iceland-Norway/dp/0713675683/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233875326&sr=8-1))
And some like that to such a degree "trading up until they are comfortable" never ever occurs after that.
http://vcnhsg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pk1DqxkLPEZe65hKXe5-te6QSwN2w-b4rLCd3dF6zZwHPhGFOSmVmOnQYqvMFJv2TRmDSjkav6HhFaADzeJDfHQ/Wayfarer06RallySmall.jpg

"First steps" can be taken on the Great Lakes of Georgia, from there and then on, who knows. And if those Great Lakes prove to be enough, that's fun too.

More information on:
http://www.uswayfarer.org/ (http://www.uswayfarer.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=35)
http://www.wayfarer-canada.org/

Cheers

[apex1]

sounds like sound advice. you guys did slow down a dream a little bit. i guess doing the dreaming is half the fun. see you on the water......someday.

thanks to all,

Slowing down is not loosing the dream! It was a dreamer who invented the wheel, and he had no experience whether it works or not.
Go on, enjoy your part (half the fun) and try getting the rest together.

Most replies here have been focused on some sort of technical advice or recommendations. But no matter which sort of boat you´ll choose finally, knowledge is 99% of your joy or the lack of ! Your boat usually is not right nor wrong, your decisions make each and every trip fun or sheer horror.
One point just touched lightly here is wheather. Having a profound understanding of the very complex wheather system is by far the most important issue in going offshore. Gaining it unfortunately the longest path in a sailors progress. But it is for free and can be improved without moving a boat.
At a second step after earning some stable "sea legs" I would try to find some "hand for bunk" arrangement on transit trips whith professional (better commercial) crew!
Watching a pro doing his job can tell you more in one voyage, than 25 years of club sailing with the "local hero".

Good Luck
Richard

[Kay9]

IMO Says all vessels navigating on International waters MUST maintain a LOOKOUT 24hours a day while UNDERWAY.

I know a lot of people dont do it. But they all sure scream like hell when they run under my towlines.

K9

[JotM]

Slowing down is not loosing the dream!

I second to that! Go out there and get addicted, like most of us here.

I don't share Apex's view on what most of the recommendations and advice are all about though.

What I think I am seeing is a division on advise between "learn by watching" (the pros) and "learn by doing" (so it gets embedded in your subconsciousness / muscle memory).

The advisers in the first group tend to then advise a "little yacht", the advisers in the second group tend to advise a "dinghy".
All miles away from the question "can a 65'-er by converted for single handed sailing", but spot-on the remark "I have never been sailing before".

Again, I hope the OP doesn't loose the dream.

For a choice on the most appropriate learning strategy it would probably help to have a rough idea of the age of the people on the brink of learning how to sail a boat here. Perhaps the OP can give the rest of us a hint.

Most will have guessed by now I would place myself in the "learn the basics by doing in a dinghy sized boat". Learning by watching (a pro) requires at least a hunch of when what decisions are made. The blessed ignorant won't even realise the experienced sailor is making a decision on many occasions in the first place. The skipper's quick look at the sky, estimating the significance of a cloud pattern overhead, will go by unnoticed, just as the small abnormality in the wind which had the rig tremble for a moment and made him look did.

After the basics are established and locked in underneath the surface, there are at least two extended strategies that will expand skills and knowledge fast and profound. Watching a pro with extensive local experience and trying to instruct another novice the absolute basics yourself. Both will make you think, rethink and understand why to do what when. And to plan ahead, vital when the intention is going offshore someday.

Another $0.02 added.

PS Kay, let the lucky screamers scream, it are the eternally silenced to contemplate about.

[Kay9]

PS Kay, let the lucky screamers scream, it are the eternally silenced to contemplate about.

Might be me, but you lost me here JotM.

K9

[JotM]

PS Kay, let the lucky screamers scream, it are the eternally silenced to contemplate about.

Might be me, but you lost me here JotM.

Those that are still able to scream after meeting with your towlines are the lucky asses. But every now and then someone won't be doing much screaming no more. Kind of hard from six foot under.

[Knut Sand]

Did we forget to answer this?:

"can a 65'-er by converted for single handed sailing"

To that again, my meaning is yes....

And about 24h lookout....

I was far out from the coast (somwhere between Norway/ Denmark), in a sailboat, "daylight", very dense fog, very short visibility, I started to hear this heavy vibrating sound, like heavy steel plates vibrating.... Well my boat was pure GRP, and hadnt been making a sound like that earlier. Guess my head was spinning quite a lot there; port/ starboard/ port etc..... Dammit/ somethings coming.....??!!

And then; not too far from the bow, the fog appeared to have welds, some spots of rust, showed even some flakes of paint.... Moving from my starboard side to port.... Then it was away...... just some waves, and the fog again..... :rolleyes:

When I landed in Denmark I bought a bigger radar reflector.....;)

[apex1]

1.:!:
Learning by watching (a pro) requires at least a hunch of when what decisions are made. The blessed ignorant won't even realise the experienced sailor is making a decision on many occasions in the first place. The skipper's quick look at the sky, estimating the significance of a cloud pattern overhead, will go by unnoticed, just as the small abnormality in the wind which had the rig tremble for a moment and made him look did.
2.:!:
Watching a pro with extensive local experience and trying to instruct another novice the absolute basics yourself. Both will make you think, rethink and understand why to do what when.


To the 1.:!:
For that reason I told him first to earn some "sea legs".
To the 2.:!:
Sound advice, and a proven way to gain the own knowledge: instruct another student!
Thanks for making some points come into sharper relief!
Regards
Richard

[JotM]

Well Knut, I am glad you are still among us.

I guess that makes you a "lucky ass", notwithstanding you did keep a perfectly good lookout.

After several accounts like yours and loss of the yacht Ouzo, the UK Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) had some research done on radar reflectors. [link] (http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/2007/ouzo.cfm)

From their research (which can be found through the link above) they concluded:
Yachtsmen are offered the following advice:
· You are urged to carefully consider the findings of this study (along with other relevant research and studies) and then to fit the most effective and appropriate radar reflector for your circumstances.
· You may also like to bear in mind that, if fitting a passive reflector, a simple but effective rule might be to fit the largest reflector that your boat can sensibly display.
· Ensure your reflector is properly installed
Finally, it is essential for yachtsmen to be aware that, notwithstanding the type of radar reflector fitted, in certain circumstances their craft may still not be readily visible on ships’ radars and thus they should always navigate with caution.


The "if fitting a passive reflector" remark relates to the finding that when healed and in moderate seas, even the biggest of passive reflectors are hardly sufficient. Or in more detail:


· Based on the results of this report it is recommended that yachtsmen always fit a radar reflector that offers the largest RCS practicable for their vessel.
· The RCS of the radar reflector should have a minimum consistent RCS of 2m2.
· The Sea-Me is the recommended product if power is available
· If power is not available then the passive Large Tri-Lens reflector is recommended
· The 4” tube reflector is not considered suitable due to its poor performance. It is also recommended that the 2” tube reflector is not suitable since the performance of this target will be even lower.
· It is recommended that poorly performing radar reflectors are not fitted as it is possible that the user could be lulled into a false sense of security believing that their chances of detection has been enhanced.


Have fun and be safe. There are one or two things to be said about learning how to sail inshore.

Cheers

[JotM]

NB if money is no issue, you live and/or cruise close to a merchant shipping TSS and have ample power at your disposal, you might consider fitting AIS (http://www.imo.org/Safety/mainframe.asp?topic_id=754) alongside an active or a passive radar reflector. You won't go unnoticed by the guys in the big league after that.

[Kay9]

Radar reselctors are great. But they dont replace a lookout. Giving your safty to me by placing a RR on your mast and then hopeing that I will A. See you. And B. Be able to aviod you. Is at best criminal, and at worst deadly.

AIS is great, But you should see my radar in the Pugent Sounds. You think O-Hair Airport is busy.

On our Tug at sea we have 2 people on the bridge at all times.When we enter heavy traffic centers I add one more officer just to watch the radar, and we still have near misses.

This isnt the same ocean that we had 40 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Its a LOT more crowded. I remember running a small Oceanographic vessel in the South central Pacific. You wouldnt see anyone for whole trips. Now I rarely have a nite with no contacts on the radar.

K9

[JotM]

Radar reselctors are great. But they dont replace a lookout. Giving your safty to me by placing a RR on your mast and then hopeing that I will A. See you. And B. Be able to aviod you. Is at best criminal, and at worst deadly.

AIS is great, But you should see my radar in the Pugent Sounds. You think O-Hair Airport is busy.

I think RR's can be great, but, because of the false sense of safety it seems to offer some people, dangerous too. A radar reflector can never replace a lookout, but it might help a lookout on another vessel.

AIS on all seagoing yachts would be great, but cannot replace "look-out by sight and hearing" (Rule 5) for a long time to come, probably never. But when a small yacht is equipped with DCS&GPS&AIS-transponder it will show up nicely and labelled on your digital map with radar image and AIS overlay. One blib less of which to be unsure what it is you are looking at.

Now on a roomy little cruiser like PAR's design one might find the space to install that. But where on earth is it to be stashed on a RAID-boat like slender open boat? Weather proof and affordable too, please.

Illustration for armchair skippers (like myself at the moment): http://www.scannernet.nl/Online AIS DSC.html (http://www.scannernet.nl/Online%20AIS%20DSC.html)
Drag the map to see the entrance to the Port of Rotterdam (http://www.portofrotterdam.com/en/shipping/yachting/rules_regulations/index.jsp) [SSW]

Cheers,
Jaap

[JotM]

On the effect of radar reflectors, read table 1 on this page of US Sail: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_3.htm

Scary to know when one, like me, tends to go out on the North Sea carrying a radar reflector of a type like the "HYE".

[bill coleman]

All, I appreciate that everyone is so concerned with my safety. I want to stay on the green side of the grass too. I am 60 years old. I started operating tractors at 10 and earned money at 14 driving bulldozers. at 15 I was operating earthmovers and driving dump trucks on the road; yes with a learners permit. I built with my own hands (literally all of it) the house I have lived in for the last 38 years. I have had a service call by a technitian at my house twice in those 38 years for a refrigerator UNDER Warranty. Otherwise I fix everything. I have a Master Plumbing license, an HVAC license, an Underground Utility contractor license for my state (I am taking the state exam for a General Contracting license February 20th- new requirement for Georgia), have OSHA 500 and am qualaified to teach OSHA 10 and 30 classes. I know how to be safe. I also can do alright on reading the weather.

Give me a gallon of gas, a pair of pliers and a rope and I can crank a stump. I designed and built a stick steering system(3/64" cable and bicycle cable housing) for a small river boat that did not add over 5 pounds to the boat. Designing the ropes, pullies, wenches etc. can be done. Of this I am sure. I was expecting more technical advice from someone who has sailed alone. My vision is to plan my trips for short port to port day trips. Yes, I will need a crew member for over night crossings, but they will be few and far between.

Back to my question; How easily can a sailboat of approx. 65 ft be rigged to be single handedly sailed? Does the rigging get in the way when not in use? Is it just added gear? Can it be set up with electric wenches and pullies so it can be done with out leaving the cockpit?

I am going to do this. I want to do it as easily and safely as possible. I would like to learn from your mistakes instead of mine.

[JotM]

Give me a small not-adapted but properly equipped boat suitable for my local coastal waters and I will probably be able to sail it single-handed safely. Seaworthiness is not embedded in the hardware only.

...
Back to my question; (1) How easily can a sailboat of approx. 65 ft be rigged to be single handedly sailed? (2) Does the rigging get in the way when not in use? (3) Is it just added gear? (4) Can it be set up with electric wenches and pullies so it can be done with out leaving the cockpit?

In short:
(1) It can be done and looking at your experience sheet _you_ might not call it difficult.
(2) Not necessarily.
(3) It's a different setup; some gear may be added, some gear may be removed.
(4) Absolutely.

Can we do it for you? No. You will have to learn to sail somewhere and somehow so you can decide how it should be done on your boat. Navigation at sea is a different ball game, as even at 65' you'll be just a speck in the ocean.
Anyway, here's an example of what you you could be thinking about, a Wally yacht 80' (http://www.wally.com/jumpch.asp?idChannel=36&idUser=0&attivo=1-1):

http://www.wally.com/Upload/w/wally_80_img05_pop.jpg

I made most of my mistakes (errors of judgement or otherwise) on a 19' under rigged boat on sheltered waters with ample helping hands around. I am not so sure I would still be here had I been sailing a 65' solo. By the way, when meant for day sailing, have you ever considered something a bit smaller but aimed at short handed sailing, like the Alerion Express 28 (http://www.alerionexp.com/Alerion-AE28.html)?

Edit: Look here, they make them in 67' also. [click on the image] But don't be fooled by the tranquillity in the picture. These are high performance boats that probably harness more power than an earth mover once the wind kicks in. And there is no ignition key to turn off the wind when it becomes to much to handle.

http://www.wally.com/Upload/p/pop_up_SLINGSHOT_center_01.jpg (http://www.wally.com/jumpCh.asp?idUser=0&idChannel=38&idLang=IT&idProd=30&attivo=1-2-1)

[robherc]

How easily can a sailboat of approx. 65 ft be rigged to be single handedly sailed?
With electronics and/or hydraulics, this could be done pretty easily...just a matter of more/different equipment to install & probably a bit more design/build time to get it all arranged how it'll work best for you.

Does the rigging get in the way when not in use? Is it just added gear?
This is just a design issue. If you design your system without considering where the lines are running, it'll get in the way; if you pan everything out well in the first place, they'll be out of the way, right where you put them.

Can it be set up with electric wenches and pulleys so it can be done with out leaving the cockpit?
Yes, wither way...electronic wenches, or enough pulleys to route all of the lines to where you can easily reach them in the cockpit. May I suggest that if you go with electronic and/or hydraulic winches for your primary system, I would recommend having some form of mechanical back-up system installed as a contingency (but I'm not all that sure you didn't already probably know that yourself).

I am going to do this. I want to do it as easily and safely as possible. I would like to learn from your mistakes instead of mine.
Love your spirit there; I tend to be REALLY hard to convince NOT to do something, or that I CAN'T do something, just because someone else thinks so. ;)

[JotM]

Love your spirit there; I tend to be REALLY hard to convince NOT to do something, or that I CAN'T do something, just because someone else thinks so. ;)

For what I've been reading, everyone thinks the man can do it. Opinions just differ on how to go about it.

[Capn Mud]

Quote:
How easily can a sailboat of approx. 65 ft be rigged to be single handedly sailed?
With electronics and/or hydraulics, this could be done pretty easily...just a matter of more/different equipment to install & probably a bit more design/build time to get it all arranged how it'll work best for you.

Quote:
Does the rigging get in the way when not in use? Is it just added gear?
This is just a design issue. If you design your system without considering where the lines are running, it'll get in the way; if you pan everything out well in the first place, they'll be out of the way, right where you put them.

Quote:
Can it be set up with electric wenches and pulleys so it can be done with out leaving the cockpit?
Yes, wither way...electronic wenches, or enough pulleys to route all of the lines to where you can easily reach them in the cockpit. May I suggest that if you go with electronic and/or hydraulic winches for your primary system, I would recommend having some form of mechanical back-up system installed as a contingency (but I'm not all that sure you didn't already probably know that yourself).

This is the bit I always worry about with singlehanded sailing (and my dreams are similar to the ones that started this thread). How does one person handle the sails on a big boat like this if the electronics fail you?

Almost every book I have read from round the world single handed sailors includes serious problems with electrical equipment including battery charging and generator problems.

I have read a number of older books (before the age of electronic assisted sailing hoisting and controls) where the authors say something like "... it has been determined that the largest boat that can safely be operated by a single man is 30 foot for sail handling in high wind and sea conditions" (Not a direct quote).

I have always kept this in mine in my dreaming / planning.

What say you wise heads?

Cheers,
Andrew

[robherc]

I think that as long as you gear the winches so 1 man can effectively raise/lower each sail, you can still set it up for single-handed manual backup.
My recommendation would be to use a pulley system to run backup lines for every sail to your cabin & have enough winches & cleats in there to handle them.


Good Luck,
Rob

[JotM]

I think that as long as you gear the winches so 1 man can effectively raise/lower each sail, you can still set it up for single-handed manual backup.
My recommendation would be to use a pulley system to run backup lines for every sail to your cabin & have enough winches & cleats in there to handle them.

Dear Rob,

A proper 1-man set-up isn't the issue.
If we would sit down we can probably round up a solution for every horror scenario imaginable. (Or at least for almost every one)
The difference between Bill and Andrew is that Andrew is already thinking ahead. I am pretty certain that Bill will be able to figure out a solution for the problems he might be faced with. The question is, will he be able to create the time and opportunity for himself to do the fixing?

For most land locked vehicles the inherently safe state is stand-still, so when you get into trouble, you stop the powertrain and hit the brakes. That gives you time to think about the next move. In many a situation, like when a sail is stuck up there and the tide is coming in, sitting down and contemplating is not an option. The wind and tide do not have an ignition switch and the boat doesn't have a brake. There is no substitute for knowledge and experience in such a situation. Looking at your answers I expect you to have both of them. But can you please try to remember what you would have done in those days before these two good friends came along?

edit:
@Bill: I would urge you to at least do the cruising primer on US Sail (http://www.cruising.sailingcourse.com/) and arrange to sail as a crew member with an experienced sailor a couple of times. The cruising primer will guide you to the novice sailing primer (http://www.sailingcourse.com/primer.htm) as a prerequisite.

Cheers,

Jaap

[robherc]

Jaap-

I agree very much with you that "proper prior planning is key." I also agree that Bill would do VERY well for himself to BOTH get some sailing experience on someone else's (someone KNOWLEDGEABLE) boat first, AND to start with something smaller.

As far as the setup you're referring to goes, I had intended for the "manual winches, etc." to be run as overrides; preferably using the same cables as the electrical system (or running "trigger lines" to release each sheet from the electrical control system). That way, when the main jams at the top of the mast, you already have your backup line, sheet, winch, and release sitting there next to you, ready to save your a** as long as you have some clue how to use it (I also think, since you wouldn't be using the backup system regularly, that it would be an EXCELLENT idea to label each winch and cleat with WHAT that line is).

I'm not saying that you're wrong in any way, just trying to better describe my intentions. :cool:

[JotM]

:)

I already had the distinct feeling we are saying just about the same, just differently expressed.

[apex1]

Dear Rob,
A proper 1-man set-up isn't the issue.
If we would sit down we can probably round up a solution for every horror scenario imaginable. (Or at least for almost every one)
Right, many solutions can be found, to use them in a proper manner is the issue!
And for that reason :
edit:
@Bill: I would urge you to at least do the cruising primer on US Sail (http://www.cruising.sailingcourse.com/) and arrange to sail as a crew member with an experienced sailor a couple of times. The cruising primer will guide you to the novice sailing primer (http://www.sailingcourse.com/primer.htm) as a prerequisite.
Cheers,
Jaap
Regards
Richard

This is the bit I always worry about with singlehanded sailing (and my dreams are similar to the ones that started this thread). How does one person handle the sails on a big boat like this if the electronics fail you?
Have your winches oversized to a stage that enables you to handle your sails manually with ease.
I have read a number of older books (before the age of electronic assisted sailing hoisting and controls) where the authors say something like "... it has been determined that the largest boat that can safely be operated by a single man is 30 foot for sail handling in high wind and sea conditions" (Not a direct quote).
With todays equipment I would say that 65´is not beyond available facility, but how do you manage to drive a LPG tank truck safely if your knowledge is´nt sufficient for handling a go- cart?
What say you wise heads?

Cheers,
Andrew

Not a wise head (I moved to stinkpots after few years of sailing), but knowledge and experience is the simple answer to all of Bills questions. After some 160.000 nm under my keel and nearly 40 years of sailing (motoring mainly) I have seen many, many technical improvements coming up. Not a single one of them did solve a problem! They all have been just another tool making things easier in the hand of a seasoned sailor. Without a deep and intuitive understanding how to use them to avoid trouble all of us are simply lost!
Every power driven technique fails sooner or later! We have to be able to manage coming home without, or with a substitute, or we will stay at sea, such simple it is.
So learn to do it the simple, basic way, know where your decisions lead you to, then learn how technics can assist you. Never ever, any sort of technology will be a substitution of ability and knowledge out there at sea!
Kindest regards
Richard

[bill coleman]

All, some of you seem to think that I am too slow to see just how deep the water might be before mindlessly stepping in. Would I be asking the questions I pose if I were not in the this to learn....prior to jumping. I will do as I have always done; expedite the process. That does not mean I will do something stupid. I am just crazy; not stupid. I was looking for info on what some of you have already done. Sounds like several have experimented with and accomplished this. That goes back to my learning from your mistakes and not mine. I feel sure from the discussions that the task can be done. I have a lot to find/figure out. I plan on having a hell of a lot of fun doing it. I appreciate the advise. I will be asking many more things. It sounds like some have friendly rivalryes and differiences of opinion. Good. That gives me more to think about, and i think you guys like the bickering and one-up-mans-ship! I started this deraming several months ago. I have a few years years before it will be a reality. That gives me plenty of time to go to nearby lakes and learn some of sailing and to ask a lot more questions to get you all jousting.

Thanks for your advise and time,

Bill

[apex1]

Did´nt want to offend you Bill!
Regards
Ricard

[bill coleman]

Oh, you didn't. I would not even ask any questions if my skin were thin. You spoke true and it is appreciated. I recieved information and good advise. That was what I was seeking. One of my mottos is "don't do anything stupid" That is basically what everyone has been telling me. I am getting old enough to listen. Time was......................

[Somerville]

After 4 pages, no one has posted about the Vendee Globe and the boats that sail in it.

http://www.bymnews.com/photos/albums/Vendee/normal_roxy_080917_74.jpg
copyright BYMNews
Roxy was sailed by Sam Davies to finish 3rd after many of the competitors dropped out or were forced out by boat damage.

http://www.bymnews.com/photos/albums/userpics/10006/normal_Roxy-trim_VG_02022009.jpgcopyright BYMNews
Samantha Davies, 34 yr old British professional sailor

Roxy is 10 yrs old.

No electrical or hydraulic winches, just big ones. The boat ain't comfortable but it is fast.

Or a more moderate design like American Promise that was soloed around the world by Dodge Morgan in 1985 - The Voyage of American Promise (http://www.amazon.com/Voyage-American-Promise-Dodge-Morgan/dp/0395440963) Dodge donated the boat to the US Naval Academy after his voyage.


http://k41.pbase.com/o6/91/4891/1/79882596.ApWyAKPa.AmericanPromise13943.jpg

So yes, it is possible to outfit a 60 footer for single handed sailing but it does require extensive knowledge to enjoy sailing one of that size.

[FAST FRED]

The larger the boat (within reason) the easier it is to sail, IF you are cruising not racing and not after that last .01K

Most boats will reach a speed in K of the Sq rt lwl with a minor , almost laughably small bit of canvas. FASTER may take 3,4 5 times as much sail , so simply use any rig that only requires the sails to be rolled up like window shades.

NO there not as "good" as real hank on sails in terms of speed or versatility , but its a CRUISER , so enjoy the modest speeds , and pure lack of work for days on end.
======
Radar reflectors... I flew patrol planes with a radar strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles, and we had a bunch of sailors in the squadron.

On experiment we found the old WWII folding radar reflectors were the best of the lot in terms of ability to pick out , when the seas were up.

Cheap, but only good for a month or so, so buy them in a bunch.

FF

[JotM]

Radar reflectors... I flew patrol planes with a radar strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles, and we had a bunch of sailors in the squadron.

On experiment we found the old WWII folding radar reflectors were the best of the lot in terms of ability to pick out , when the seas were up.

Cheap, but only good for a month or so, so buy them in a bunch.

What are you referring to? The "radar[s] strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles" or "the old WWII folding radar reflectors"? ;)

Although they're fairly diplomatic about it, I am reading "buy an active radar reflector when you can organise the needed power" in the UK MAIB publication.
Were those included in your experiment too? Or did your radar operate in a different frequency range than the radar scanners used in the commercial fleet? (and thus the frequency at which active radar reflectors operate)

Regards,

Jaap

[TeddyDiver]

What are you referring to? The "radar[s] strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles" or "the old WWII folding radar reflectors"? ;)

Although they're fairly diplomatic about it, I am reading "buy an active radar reflector when you can organise the needed power" in the UK MAIB publication.
Were those included in your experiment too? Or did your radar operate in a different frequency range than the radar scanners used in the commercial fleet? (and thus the frequency at which active radar reflectors operate)

You bet they aren far beyond from commercial ones..and for a freighter it's enough to see obstacles big enough to make some damage for the ship.. otherwise they aren't interested anything else even if it were visible on the screen.
Seeing anything from 100 miles depends primarly how high you are..

[bill coleman]

[QUOTE=FAST FRED;256097]The larger the boat (within reason) the easier it is to sail, IF you are cruising not racing and not after that last .01K


FF, From my days of operating heavy equipment I can tell you it is opposite of what people think. The larger a bulldozer is, the easier it is to operate. It is a heck of a lot more forgiving of a mistake. It does not jerk you around. You do operate it different. You plan ahead a little further. I had suspected that boats would be the same.

thanks,

Bill

[apex1]

FF, From my days of operating heavy equipment I can tell you it is opposite of what people think. The larger a bulldozer is, the easier it is to operate. It is a heck of a lot more forgiving of a mistake. It does not jerk you around. You do operate it different. You plan ahead a little further. I had suspected that boats would be the same.
thanks,
Bill

Hi Bill,
you´re not wrong to think so! It is easier to handle a bigger boat (especially motorboat) than a nutshell. Docking is a different issue of course. But the bigger the boat the more complexity of systems you encounter usually. And that lets the novice fail too often.
A bigger boat on the other hand is the boat which can provide sufficient comfort even in heavy sea conditions, keeping the crew fit. Fatigue of crew is a very much underestimated problem in making passages.

Regards
Richard

[Brent Swain]

Practical boat owners did tests on Radar reflectors, and found there was no advantage to active radar reflectors, or any of the so called "Improved" ones. In some cases the old fashioned ww2 versions did much better.
I found the crew fatigue level dropped drastically when I went for a pilothouse with inside steering. Exposed cockpit , outside only steering positions are dangerous, not only from the exposure they subject crews to, but from the drastically increased amount of crew fatigue. Dodgers are as protective as a lean to, nowhere near as good as a wheelhouse and inside steering.
Brent

[apex1]

I found the crew fatigue level dropped drastically when I went for a pilothouse with inside steering. Exposed cockpit , outside only steering positions are dangerous, not only from the exposure they subject crews to, but from the drastically increased amount of crew fatigue. Dodgers are as protective as a lean to, nowhere near as good as a wheelhouse and inside steering.
Brent

Yepp.. a wheelhouse is a must for me. But I´m a stinkpotman anyway. see avatar.
And again, IMHO more losses during passages are caused by fatigue of their shorthanded crew than by technical failure alone.
To radar reflectors,
the best radar reflector is a big container carrier! So, do´nt worry, do´nt guess, do´nt fear if they see you or not! See them!
Buy a radar! Even the 2000$ Simrad is a much better lifesaver than every active or passive reflector. AIS is a nice tool, but see it as another sort of entertainment and never as a addition to your safety! You´ll be surprised how many thousand commercial vessels out there are dragging their lines through the oceans without taking notice of the radar for hours! Some are underway with a bridge unmanned (I had such encounter at the south entrance of the english channel), or the watch asleep.
And even if they see you, never NEVER believe, that they take care of you! (in busy waters a larger freighter will never give way, no matter if you are right, or the little sister of the pope, they cannot.
So, have a professional el. system aboard (or throw your beverage fridge) and run a radar!
not just my 0,02€
Regards
Richard

[JotM]

Practical boat owners did tests on Radar reflectors, and found there was no advantage to active radar reflectors, or any of the so called "Improved" ones. In some cases the old fashioned ww2 versions did much better.

In fact they did. In 1999. Apparently there has been some improvement in the active reflectors over the cause of 9 years. And about the tetrahedral "WWII" reflectors. They are fine. They are the basis for the current standard. As long as they aren't heeled.