Catastrophic delamination on a new Bertram

[apex1]

This is a serious issue:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/10591-catastrophic-delamination-new-bertram-63-a.html

see the whole thread!


Just to know where the shoe pinches........

Regards
Richard

[daiquiri]

****, that's a real nightmare. Was a nightmare when it tore apart in mid-sea (just a thought of that situation gives me an eery feeling), and will be a nightmare when lawyers start to make their living (read: maintaining their Porsches) on it...

[CML UK Ltd]

Looks like a lot of people have made comment on that forum so i'll give my 5p worth here;

I think air has got caught between the laminates and core (maybe down to poor cosolidation based on the core looking dry) if it has got warm the air would have expanded causing a void. Also i'm guessing they laid it up stern to bow. Lloyds require to build laminates bow to stern so that if this does happen it is harder for water to get under the laminate.

Could also just be no hardener/catalyst like someone speculated on the other forum but this could also be an option.....? Regardless that is a serious coq up.

[apex1]

Where does this industry lead us to?

[rasorinc]

Interesting article that relates to this posting. Sea Ray had some larger boats break in half when they tried to cut too much.
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

[DGreenwood]

I saw that forum entry a few weeks back. I don't even know where to begin with explaining how bad that construction is. That is, under no circumstances, to be considered an indictment of cored construction. Clearly the "craftsmen" who bodged that garbage together would have made a mess no matter what material they were using. And yes...it IS a serious issue. If it was my family I had out on that boat, after shelling out 1 Mil. plus, I would have been pissed to see what I had bought.
The second mentioned article is a useless and uninformed diatribe.

[Commuter Boats]

There's been a considerable amount of discussion about this vessel on another forum, The Hull Truth, with two threads running, http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=230602&start=1
and http://www.thehulltruth.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=229966&start=1 . I've been a semi-active poster on those threads and have been an advocate for cored construction. The whole concept of utilizing cores is not faring very well amongst most of the posters. As I see it, the problem with this Bertram is with engineering and quality control. I operate a repair shop and do some low-volume construction in cored composite, my largest built to date is 40 feet and fully cored. I guess I just don't like seeing cored construction get a black eye it doesn't deserve.
Gerald

[robherc]

Hmmm, and I saw it posted in another thread that "there's no logical reason for building your own boat" ... I'm now thinking "Survival of yourself, and your high-dollar investment is an EXCELLENT logical reason for building your own boat!" In defense of the person who said it, they were implying that you build for the love of building, and because many of us feel that undeniable NEED to build a boat...but survival is starting to seem to be a logical reason, in the face of these trajedies from manufacturers' "oopsies".


...just my $0.02, take it or leave it

[Herman]

I have looked at the photos, and I am impressed. Impressed by the lack of quality during installation of the foam, (kerfs not filled, and the kerfs are HUGE), but also there must have been something terribly wrong with the outer skin.

I have seen boats where the skin coat (gelcoat + first layer of CSM had come off. looks dramatic, but structurally not a big problem)

This is different, however. Only nice thing is that the laminate was somehow still strong enough in interlaminair direction, to be able to rip chunks out up to the core.

Anyhow, little do we know about the laminate, the circumstances, so it is not really doable to draw conclusions.

I must admit that I have had samples, cut from commercially built, high quality boats (cutouts from window openings) that were dreadfully badly laminated, with core material that was 80% not bonded, and what was bonded, was badly bonded. The bonding paste had gone off before the core was in place, and the core was not pressed into the laminate by any means. And this was a really expensive and highly regarded builder.

I also visit many DIY builders, and although things might not end up as easthetically pleasing as a moulded boat, construction and integrity are usually impressive.

[tunnels]

This is a serious issue:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/10591-catastrophic-delamination-new-bertram-63-a.html

see the whole thread!


Just to know where the shoe pinches........

Regards
Richard

Where are the fiberglass boat builders !
I have been working in fibreglass since 1972 . Have made lots of boats , Power ,inboard and outboard , sailing dinghys to ocean cruisers and mega yachts in differant places and seen some hair raising things .
I have come to the conclussion designers and composite engineers are the begining of the problem as they simply dont understand the materials they are specifying and have never spent time on the floor and worked with any of the materials either . Then comes the departmental supervisors and lastly the workers doing the job !supervisers spend to much time chatting on cell phones , eyeing the pretty girls in the office and drinking endless cups of coffee !!!
They need to be leaning over the workers shoulders and doing what they are paid to do . They should be sorting throught the designers laminating scheduals looking for the design and engineering weakness's and training there staff to do the same and how to use and understand the materials they are working with .
The workers are just doing there job the easyest and quickest way possible so they can collect there meager wages and go home to a naging wife and screaming kids .
Laminaters in general are the lowest paid , work in the grottyest places, put up with all the crap imaginable , are the lowest skilled, get no formal training except on the job training from a guy that doest have a clue because thats the way some guy showed him what to do , 99% of the time dont have any idea what they are doing or why they are doing what they are doing .

Going back to begining there are no concrete base line standards set in place any where that i know of to build glass boats Yes we have survey standards and people that monitor them ,but, anyone can build a boat ! any one means joe and his mates can build a boat like thy have never seen a drum of resin or know anything about catalyst ratios or humidity and temprature control .
so when your boat falls apart who do you point the finger at ? .
There are some very clever and highly skilled people , there are people that get so frustrated working in big companies and all the inhouse fighting ,squabbling and power struggles of pushy no hopers that want to get up the ladder of success . :(

Going back to a place i worked in some years ago . A scruffy looking guy fronted up asking if some one could tell him how to use resin and gelcoat . Scribbled some info on the back of a cigerette packet and off he went .About 6 month later we discover hes half way through building a 60 foot yacht in a rented factory . :eek:

I have worked in a few countries , in extremes of tempratures ( +40 c to minus 20c )and conditions and seem things i never thought possible . Some of the best laminating i have seen done was by dedicated guys working with almost no equipment , couldnt speak any english lived on a island in the middle of the pacific. :)

Failures can be put into little boxes , the owner pushing the boat beyond reasonable limits ,Boat Designers and Composite engineers (sometimes one in the same person ) not understanding or careing where those limits are . The wrong materials being specified and used used on the job, the materials not used properly ( lack of basic understanding ) .
And the company trying to skimp and save on materials to make lighter boats , to go faster to make more money . :D

Where are the fireglass boat builders and where are there qualifications to pin up on the wall !!!:confused:

[Alik]

A lot of words but the reality is: lack of resin in laminate, fabric is too dry.

[tunnels]

A lot of words but the reality is: lack of resin in laminate, fabric is too dry.

So who do you point the finger at ? the operator ? the person in charge of that team ? the supervisor ? To me they are all equally at fault , and i point the blame on the whole lot right to the top ,they have all contributed to the failure in some way or another!
A company is only as good as the person that heads it .If he dosent keep every one of his senior staff / heads of departmemts in line and make them totally responsable for there actions and the actions of the staff they are in charge of then you get what you give !
working as a factory manager of a busy laminating shop i Always took one day of a working week to put on a pair of overalls and cloves and worked along side and with the guys on the floor doing what had to be done for a whole day . I knew what they could do and they knew what i was about .Unless you are able to do the job yourself how the hell do you exspect to get loyalty and dedication from your staff . :eek:
Dry lay ups is a the team leaders responsbility and the guys rolling out the glass to say something about it but it should also be the responsability of the supervisor to have weights and measures sorted and adhered to and signed off during the whole lay up proceedure of any sized boat.
Again i say where are the fibreglass boat builders ??

[daiquiri]

http://www.bertram.com/employment-details.aspx?jobid=3230

http://www.bertram.com/employment-details.aspx?jobid=3229

Could it be related to this story? Maybe few heads have rolled at the end. ;)

[tunnels]

http://www.bertram.com/employment-details.aspx?jobid=3230

http://www.bertram.com/employment-details.aspx?jobid=3229

Could it be related to this story? Maybe few heads have rolled at the end. ;)

strong leader ship qualities with 3-5 years exsperiance does not mean they know what they are doing and have vast production knowledge and on the job first hand in the thick of it exsperiance .
I have always wondered why there there is very little in the way of training and levels of qualifications for fibre glass boat builders .it is such a diverse and highly skilled proffession ,they are the guys that always get the rough end of the stick yet there job is the most important of all . there skills ,product knowledge and work ethics is what makes or breaks a boat reguardless of size or shape . simply put if they dont do there job properly it can and does cause huge problems as you have seen in those pictures . Its the long term and the durability that is the tell tale sign of good work or bad .
so again i ask where are the fibreglass boat builders

I see i am a junior member of this forum but the flip side is i have been in the industry since 1972 worked in marine and industrial fibreglassing , have held many diffrant positions within differant companies right to factory manager , i always inspire my staff to be better than anyone else and strive for perfection at all levels all the time . i have worked in a few differant countries and aquired many life long friendships along the way , i am always here to help friends in other countries with any work they are undertaking and help in anyway possible . So much is new and changing but the problems are always the same and the basics never change .
WE NEED FIBRE GLASS BOAT BUILDERS !!!!

[apex1]

They have procuced the next catastrophe:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/12806-video-sunk-bertram-discussion.html

That was a reputable builder a few decades ago. Then they started to make "cored" hulls.

Greed? Impertinence? Shareholder value? What drives such a company to risk their customers lives?

I hope the market will "honour" it this time. And people will learn that cored hulls are cr@p.

[mark775]

That laminate looks dry. There are voids.
And the windows! The guy on the other forum said they were put in with silicone...there HAS to be more than silicone, right? There are glues that can be used, urethane maybe. Richard, you can safely install glass with urethane as long as there is physical support, can't you? They do it in cars.

[Fanie]

No matter what type of 'core' you use, the strength of any boat lies in what it is wrapped in. Few materials are as strong and durable as fiberglss and if designed and applied correctly there is very little chance of failure.

I always say you cannot build a boat piece by piece and expect parts not to delaminate. Sooner or later a knock or bump is going to start that part delaminating. At least the last outside layer should be one solid piece.

If I look at the 'methods' some builders use to save their own costs (and this doesn't apply to them all) it makes one feel a bit ill. The hull is the one thing you don't want to scrounge on.

I'll sh2t myself if a hull delaminates. Look at me lips... ONE PIECE in ONE GO ! :D

[Fanie]

The whole concept of utilizing cores is not faring very well amongst most of the posters. As I see it, the problem with this Bertram is with engineering and quality control. I operate a repair shop and do some low-volume construction in cored composite, my largest built to date is 40 feet and fully cored. I guess I just don't like seeing cored construction get a black eye it doesn't deserve.
Gerald

Gerald, there is nothing wrong with cored materials in boats, in fact they do have a significant role to play.

The problem with most materials is that they are not really suitable for construction unless properly supported by something else ie fiberglass. The aeroplane guys also does that, supporting their honeycombs with fiberglass, the more so should it apply to boats. A hull takes a hell of a bashing in the water. Just try hanging in front of one while underway :D

[tunnels]

APEX1 from Hamberg you need to Back you a little !!
Theres a lot of really good boats that have cores and as the price of fuel keeps going up world wide so we have to look at the ways of making boats lighter and strong and cores play a vital part in this process as do new and better fabrics to go with the cores , plus lighter more powerful motors and so the list goes on and on !!.
Some of the blame can be put on the core but 80% is down to the workmanship and 20% the engineer that specified that particular product . He may sit at a desk and be a wizz at pushng buttons and coming up with all kinds of colored graphs and getting totally confussed in his own little world of bull dust , But has he ever had his hand stuck in gloves and spent hours breathing styrene or done the hard yards and know first hand about the products an d material hes spec'ed to replaced from the original that has never been a problem since who know when ?
Theres a general rule of thumb that people should take notice of , Foams at not good to use in hull bottoms ! Top sides ok but not bottoms .
Look at this and remeber it 80% of failures are caused by bad workmanship and the other 20 % is bad choice of material's :confused:

[apex1]

Cored hulls are crap!

[Alik]

They have procuced the next catastrophe:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/12806-video-sunk-bertram-discussion.html

That was a reputable builder a few decades ago. Then they started to make "cored" hulls.

Greed? Impertinence? Shareholder value? What drives such a company to risk their customers lives?

I hope the market will "honour" it this time. And people will learn that cored hulls are cr@p.

But boating press keep brainwashing the consumers on 'advanced high-tech builds'. Every builder that claims to be not 'high-hech' but simple and reliable is at risk of getting out of business. The result is on photos You posted...

[apex1]

Richard, you can safely install glass with urethane as long as there is physical support, can't you? They do it in cars.

Yes of course.


But boating press keep brainwashing the consumers on 'advanced high-tech builds'. Every builder that claims to be not 'high-hech' but simple and reliable is at risk of getting out of business. The result is on photos You posted...

Too true, and too sad.

But there is still a clientele not buying all the "high tech" claims. Good for us.

Regards
Richard

[tunnels]

There is nothing hi tech about building boats ,nothing at all . I have been building Glass boats since i started work in 1972 and very little has changed if anything we have gone backwards in the past 20 years , dosent matter if its power or sail ,big or small there is nothing high tech!! .
You want to see suffisticated laminants and laminating proceeder's get into the industrial glassing industry then you will have got some where , boating No way!! .
Most companies havent graduated past woven roving and chopped strand matt !and some of then still dont know the differance between E matt and P matt
Wake you people! take you blinkers off and get off the sofa put down the tv remote and stop mumbling!!!! .

[Alik]

There is nothing hi tech about building boats ,nothing at all


I know this. In reality, very often high-tech claim is just a reason to charge more and build slower with unknown result. I just published this conclusion here (http://www.amdesign.co.th/Our_Pubication/Sea%20yachting_JAN-FEB%202010.pdf).

As to me, my boat is all in sandwich (bottom also), but designed and built properly. OK, it is stored on trailer, not on water... :)

[TeddyDiver]

spent hours breathing styrene ; bad choice of material's
Other thing wrong, not crap maybe but piss instead.. nothing to do in cored structures..

[apex1]

APEX1 from Hamberg you need to Back you a little !!

Theres a general rule of thumb that people should take notice of , Foams at not good to use in hull bottoms ! Top sides ok but not bottoms .


Have you seen the video I linked and refered to? NO

But you should........

.....before you make dangerous statements.


Foam cored hulls are crap!

[Fanie]

If you use the core material as structure, then forget it, you will keep on running into problems.

The core is suppose to add stiffness (after the hull is structurally sound) as an inner layer, also heat insulation, sound and flotation.

Not structure. I know it is used as a former in some cases, but again the foam has no strength and does not contribute to the strength of the part at all.

[tunnels]

Have you seen the video I linked and refered to? NO

But you should........

.....before you make dangerous statements.


Foam cored hulls are crap!

I would like to see the video you are refering to ! can you put up the video address again please .
Tell me how glass boats should be built ! what would you use and how would you use it for the hull construction of a 36 ft power boat that should do 25 to 35 knots and what kind of hp would you recommend to get the boat to that speed ! Single motor or twins ?
:confused:

[tunnels]

No matter what type of 'core' you use, the strength of any boat lies in what it is wrapped in. Few materials are as strong and durable as fiberglss and if designed and applied correctly there is very little chance of failure.

I always say you cannot build a boat piece by piece and expect parts not to delaminate. Sooner or later a knock or bump is going to start that part delaminating. At least the last outside layer should be one solid piece.

If I look at the 'methods' some builders use to save their own costs (and this doesn't apply to them all) it makes one feel a bit ill. The hull is the one thing you don't want to scrounge on.

I'll sh2t myself if a hull delaminates. Look at me lips... ONE PIECE in ONE GO ! :D

B]No matter what type of 'core' you use, the strength of any boat lies in what it is wrapped in.[/B]
You need to really think about what you have written here !! so if you have a strong skin inside and out it dosent matter what the core is !! are you really sure about that ??? so if the glass on each side of the core comes loose and the core crumbles it dosent matter ! is that what you are saying ? its what i am reading !!
One question = do you build boats for a living ??:eek:

[Alik]

If you use the core material as structure, then forget it, you will keep on running into problems.

The core is suppose to add stiffness (after the hull is structurally sound) as an inner layer, also heat insulation, sound and flotation.

Not structure. I know it is used as a former in some cases, but again the foam has no strength and does not contribute to the strength of the part at all.

Wrong statement. Core is part of structure and it works for SHEAR, while skins work for TENSION and COMPRESSION.

[tunnels]

Wrong statement. Core is part of structure and it works for SHEAR, while skins work for TENSION and COMPRESSION.

And as far as floatation is concerned forget it on any sized boat .
dont for get when in compression buckling and possibly skin shear as well in rare situations :p

[apex1]

I would like to see the video you are refering to ! can you put up the video address again please .
Tell me how glass boats should be built ! what would you use and how would you use it for the hull construction of a 36 ft power boat that should do 25 to 35 knots and what kind of hp would you recommend to get the boat to that speed ! Single motor or twins ?
:confused:

The link still is where it was posted yesterday. (of course reading a bit would help to get familiar with the topic, BEFORE one contradicts)

No, I will not tell you what I WOULD use or how I WOULD calculate propulsion demands for your entertainment.:confused:

And I do´nt produce GRP boats in the range you asked.

My production line goes from 17 to 30 meter in wood epoxy and from 32 to 46 meter in GRP.

For the latter I use solid laminate for the entire hull, the only proven and honest way to do it.

The Bertram boat in question was completely destroyed (I mean completely, even the transom fell off), by hitting something (maybe just diving in a wave, but most likely a buoy), with the bow at 1,5 meter ABOVE waterline!!!
She HAD a solid laminated bottom.



dont for get when in compression buckling and possibly skin shear as well in rare situations :p

Could you please use another formulation for this? I did not understand. Thanks.

Regards
Richard

ahh, did I mention: foam cored hulls are crap?

[Fanie]

You need to really think about what you have written here !! so if you have a strong skin inside and out it dosent matter what the core is !! are you really sure about that ???

In your case I would like to see it is lead :D Where did I say it doesn't matter what the core is ? We're discussing foam cores in hulls so obviously I refer to them.

so if the glass on each side of the core comes loose and the core crumbles it dosent matter ! is that what you are saying ? its what i am reading !!

Correct. in the sense that even if the core evaporates then the hull structure must not be compromised - is why this thead was started in the first place. Go back and look at those pictures and you will see why the hull perished.

As for the 'sheer' component, I have two foam sheets here that is used for marine foam core hulls. I can rip it apart easily by hand, shearing, bending, any way you prefer. It will not contribute to any kind of strength, and I will not use it in any of my boats. I use PE foam and for good reason, but not structure or shear or whatever else you want to add.

One question = do you build boats for a living ??
So by implication you say that if one does not make a living out of boat building you don't know **** ? If your argument is correct then Richard is right because he has built the most boats around here :D

[Fanie]

And as far as floatation is concerned forget it on any sized boat .
dont for get when in compression buckling and possibly skin shear as well in rare situations :p

Floatation is one of the main concerns for using core materials, especially foam cores,
which is why many boats can be rated 'unsinkable'.

What do you use it for ? Structure ?

[Fanie]

For the latter I use solid laminate for the entire hull, the only proven and honest way to do it.

CORRECT, I 100% agree !

After that is in place you can add whatever you like for booyancy etc, because then it won't compromise the structure strength.

[apex1]

What do you use it for ? Structure ?

That is the crux Fanie, yes they do.

It is absolutely correct that a cored panel is much stiffer than the two platings together, but unfortunately stiffness is only one part of the game.

And ALL, absolutely ALL foams fail in core composites, there is no excemption. Balsa is a better core material, but has other issues as we all know.

So, leave it where it belongs, short living race machines.

Alfred Neubauer the racing director of Mercedes Benz said once:

"The best racecar is the one that falls in pieces right behind the chequered flag"

But of course customers want "high tech" "performance" "state of the art" as Alik mentioned so well.

Give them what they want! But only to a certain degree, the life and safety of those premature critters are still in our hands, and we have to take care of them!

Regards
Richard

[M-Sasha]

Unbelievable video. Or, no unbelievable that this is a 20M boat, falls in pieces like gingerbredhouse.

Good we build in wood!

Sasha

[apex1]

Just a update (at least for this auditorium).

Too often the core foam cr@p pops up on different threads.

Look at these pictures, read the text carefully, understand what you see,

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/bertram-yacht/12624-yachtforums-exclusive-underwater-pictures-sunk-bertram-630-a.html

and forget about that **** in boatbuilding! forever!

Regards
Richard

[fg1inc]

Core, no core. Lay up your own panels and beat 'em with a sledge hammer!
You'll learn a lot very quickly and have a lot o' fun too.
This particular builder has had some very serious difficulties meeting payroll since the italians took over. When you don't pay a guy Friday he may not be there Monday. And when you have a limited lamination "window" with no workers on the floor to stay within that window......well.....secondary bond.
Not too reliable when working with "esters".
This was not the only delamination failure for these guys.

[tunnels]

Its the age old story !! 90 % of failures are bad workmanship and poor quaility control the other 10% is bad choice of materials and not understanding them !!:P :D

[Ilan Voyager]

Its the age old story !! 90 % of failures are bad workmanship and poor quaility control the other 10% is bad choice of materials and not understanding them !!:P :D

I agree totally with the statements you made in your posts of this thread. I have worked on glass fiber-cored boats since more than 30 years with none problem of delamination.

It's a well known technic today and the engineering has no special difficulties; the shipyard Tecimar mastered it already in 1972.

I've worked on boats from 18 feet to several mine hunters made in sandwich and honeycomb, all strong (mine hunters need to be very strong...thus the use of a fiberglass sandwich) and sound.

Lot of cored composite boats are mass produced in Europe with no particular problems. Several fishing boats until 50-60m long have been made sucessfully in cored foberglass.
And I almost forget all the race multihulls of the 80's which are always navigating.

These failures come of a very poor craftmanship and engineering, not from the cored system principle by itself. I would say rather it seems that some shipyards are unable to master sandwich boat building.

[tunnels]

Once a company gets in this deep its better to shut the door and walk away and dont look back . its been posted on the net and thousands of people will have seen and read all the posts . the company name will always be remembered for what has happened and all there boat will be frowned upon for ever more . The second hand value of these boat will have slumped drasticly after all this write up i would say . No news like bad news , no one is interested in good stories but they sure as hell like bad stories .:P