Ocean Crossing In A Small Boat

[venomousbird]

My main concern here is not comfort. I'm looking for a bare-bones, small boat, as inexpensive to buy or build as possible that is going to take me through terrible weather without killing me. I've spent years of my life roughing it in the bush, but I'm stuck here in the city working at a shoe store right now, which is not my thing at all. I'm making a decent wage for the time being, but adventure (a real life) calls again.

I've learned the fine art of distilling seawater with a fresnel lens, so that will reduce the amount of cargo I'll need to be hauling along with me. I know that people have rowed solo across the Atlantic, so I'm certain that with the help of a sail, I can do this. My concern is to avoid sinking or breaking up in the process. Preferably I would have accomodations for three adults, and no more than a few hundred pounds of gear.

[Guest62110524]

there is a 20 footer that has never killed anyone
LAURANT GILES TREKKA, very famous for circumnavs, , some friends owned one, and they did NZ to Fiji islands and Australia and back
the thing abt them is they are very round with tumblehome and very quiet running
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=laurent+giles+trekka&spell=1
or you may pick up a very cheap very well built steelboat, pends on your budget

[Landlubber]

There are a few good small boats, buy try to get something in the 30 foot range instead of the 20 foot range, they are faster, more comfortable and actually quite enjoyable, small boats are simpley pain disguised in another way, you need to be able to stand up, cook in comforat and sleep in peace. I would not recommend anything in the low 20's for sure.

[Guest62110524]

There are a few good small boats, buy try to get something in the 30 foot range instead of the 20 foot range, they are faster, more comfortable and actually quite enjoyable, small boats are simpley pain disguised in another way, you need to be able to stand up, cook in comforat and sleep in peace. I would not recommend anything in the low 20's for sure.
dead right there Lubs, where are you now?

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Ganley-Shadow-1938029/Sidney/Canada
ok here is a boat near you

[alex folen]

Now, will you be traveling from New Guinea, or Vancouver? Venomous birds are more prone to be defensive in nature. You cannot think of something killing you, more so something not killing you.

[alan white]

If I had to go to sea in a boat alone, and I wanted a small boat, I think I'd choose a Vertue class, which is a bit over 25 ft, but even that isn't suitable for more that two close friends.
At thirty feet, three people are a crowd, but it's possible. thirty five feet will cruise three in style.
You can cruise offshore in a boat smaller than 25 ft, but why would you?

[rrhal]

You could probably purchase a serviceable Thunderbird for under $4000 in the Puget Sound area. It would make the crossing but it would not be comfortable.

Have you looked into a folkboat? Pearson 26'? These could be had for not a huge amount of money.

[Gary Baigent]

Don't forget the 6.5 metre mini-Transat designs. Although hard and mean down below, these boats have clocked up huge mileages of fast sailing. There must be numbers of older versions going for reasonable prices.

[zigzag]

Try bateau.com, 26' plus. Kits available at reasonable cost

[ff_nick]

Hi,
Google the Jester Challenge - it is an informal, self-regulated transatlantic race in boats 20 - 30 feet long. Run by a group of mainly British & French sailors who say they are trying to recapture the spirit of the original OSTAR. Most of their boats cost buttons! Loads of good ideas there too. There is forum on ybw (http://www.ybw.com/forums/postlist.php/Cat/0/Board/jester).
Bit eurocentric of course, but still worthwhile.
From personal experience, a few to consider:
Contessa 26 - a folkboat derivative. Some were built in Canada under another name (after a disagreement with the original UK builder over the name, I think).
Ecume de mer (Group Finot - 1500 built in France, no idea how many are in N. America though).
Nicholson 26 (Rare).
And a few others with a good reputation:
Sabre 28 (loads of those around, both sides of the pond).
Frances 26
Achilles 24

I expect you'll get at least as many other suggestions as you do posts.

Yours

Nick.

[venomousbird]

Thanks to everyone making suggestions. I was looking into a Pearson 26, but I now have a lot of other options to consider as well. . . I spent 6 months last year heading up the BC coast in a 16 foot canoe with homemade pontoons and a basic wooden motor-mount, and living mostly from the wild on uninhabited islands, so I learned a lot about the sea and survival skills in general.

It was amazing how even such a simple design could withstand some pretty heavy swells with whitecaps. Got into some 30 knot or so winds, which made for some exciting open-water crossings! I was hoping to settle along the way, but didn't find the kind of community I felt comfortable in unfortunately, but the exploration and time on the water was amazing. It's addictive, isn't it?

[Tcubed]

Sounds very nice.

Myself , my last serious passage was crossing the Atlantic non stop Cornwall, UK to Puerto Rico ~4500 nM in 47 days, with best two consecutive days run being 385 nM about 350 nM off Cape Finisterre.

Note the fill in on the rudder where the prop used to go. That made a huge difference in speed, handling, and seaworthiness. The boat was 22 foot long x 8' 4" x 3' 10" ~ 3200 kg , launched 1945

The point of this post is just to say that that particular boat was certainly an example of able and would highly recommend something along these lines for minimalist deep sea passages.

[Chris Ostlind]

Pretty "out there" sailing speeds with a deep draft, fully keeled boat that is heavily loaded with stores for a crossing of 47 days.

Dude, you should be banging the Vendee Globe with numbers like that from that kind of craft at that LOA.

My deepest sense of awe...

[Tcubed]

Yeah , it has been my experience that there is unfortunately a very large amount of misinformation about the performance of full keel boats.

I have considerable sailing experience on both full keel and high aspect type keel sailboats and have found that there is certainly much less performance difference between the types as popular opinion would have one believe.

I am currently researching on unifying hydrodynamic theory so that these designs can be evaluated side by side using theory alone to come up with a more satisfactory and more realistic performance estimate for both types.

[alan white]

Average for two days was 190nm per day, in other words. Very good for a 22 ft boat. Looks to be similar to an Itchen ferry hull.

[Tcubed]

Hoorah! IT IS an ITCHEN FERRY. I'de give you rep but the program won't allow rep twice to same.

[Chris Ostlind]

Here's the interesting part... the square root of the LOA (not LWL) is 4.69 and when multiplied by the suggested factor of 1.34 for displacement hulls of this type, you get 6.28 knots of hull speed.

When the 6.28 value is multiplied by 24 hours, we see a suggested, hull speed distance of 150nm.

Even more remarkable is the 48 hour distance covered of 385nm, resulting in a speed of 8 knots AVERAGE. This means that the boat regularly saw speeds in the 10-12 knot region for lengthy sections of the 48 hour period in order to get that very high average... and all when the boat was at its most heavily laden condition, at the very beginning of the journey.

What is not being told is the current speed, the wave action, the wind conditions, the sail area being flown and the ever-present sailor's fudge factor for boat's of their own.

You want to say, Hmmmmm? What's up with that?... I wouldn't blame you.

"By the hand of Neptune she was spirited along at a frightening pace..."

There are lots of very solid, 40' blue water cruisers who would like to see 24 and 48 hour distances such as these being reported. 40 footers, mind you, with modern underbodies, bulbed fin keels, the latest foil shapes and very powerful rigs.

So, TC... tell us the rest of the story, would you?

[Tcubed]

If you look at cruisers daily averages and compare it against boat length the expected correlation is much weaker than expected by simply looking at root(lwl) . This is a pretty well established fact. I would say it is no doubt due to small boats being much easier to drive hard and also because small boats don't suffer as much in light winds.

Those couple of days it was blowing pretty strong at close to forty knots from behind with a big breaking sea. I had a partly reefed main , staysail and the storm spinnaker up so no shortage of power.

The current in that area is about 0.5 knots to 1.0 knots typically (in my direction) although who knows it might have been even a bit more. But not much more or the sea state would have been calmer.

So that gives an average speed length ratio of between 1.53 and 1.64.

There is nothing in fluid dynamics that says that once you reach 1.34 all further speed is impossible. What it does say is that it takes rapidly increasing amounts of power - for these kinds of disp/length ratios. On that day power was not an issue. Also as it was two consecutive days and the day before and after were also high i know that it is not due to navigational error. I know full well the boat was exceeding hull speed by simply observing the position of the stern wave.

To me this is not so impressive as the fact that the boat was so well behaved that it would self steer (sheet to tiller method) well enough to allow me to drive it so hard, although i must admit there were a couple of instances when i saw a particularly gnarly wave come up from behind and i seriously wondered if it would be able to take it (as in not broach). It did though.

PS the [...most heavily laden..] is a moot point . I had less than a hundred kg of food onboard and a bit less than 80 liters of water compared to 3200 kg disp makes almost no diference.

[alan white]

Hoorah! IT IS an ITCHEN FERRY. I'de give you rep but the program won't allow rep twice to same.

I forgot. Check out stbd frame 19 for a minor crack just behind that discolored ceiling plank.
On the serious side, I love itchen ferries.

[Tcubed]

Actually this one had no ceiling, which i prefer as it allows for visually inspecting the entire hull.

[Landlubber]

Venemousbird,

Why is it that the boat required does not necessarily have to be comfortable, as you stated in the openimg lines.

One thing about ocean sailing, you never know what tomorrow may bring, and the best thing i have found is to be ready for tomorrow. That involves plenty of rest, good food and a balanced boat that does not really require you at the helm. Comfort is relative to each and everyone of us I know, but a comfortable boat, both for yourself and for the boat too, makes for a successful voyage, and also the desire to continue from one port to another.

Personally, I would rate comfort as being a serious requirement.

Those smaller boats, Vertue etc are certainly good sea boats, but again, personally, I prefer over 30 footers, they are not necessarily more expensive either. You can get to just over 40 feet without getting into "serious" sized winches and sails, rigging etc. The loa is very important for daily averages, no way a smaller boat is going to average the same as a larger boat over time/distance. Speed is of course not the main driving point, but it is nice to have a boat that can sail well and fast.

Another point worth consideration, design....good design cost no more to build than bad design......yet the value and real worth of a good design is invaluable. Never build a crap design just because it is cheap...the poor man pays twice.

[Guest625101138]

Here's the interesting part... the square root of the LOA (not LWL) is 4.69 and when multiplied by the suggested factor of 1.34 for displacement hulls of this type, you get 6.28 knots of hull speed.

......
Chris
The 1.34 is not a "suggested" factor it is a defined parameter related to the celerity of the transverse wave group formed by the hull that has the same wavelength as the water line length of the hull. The term hull speed was coined a long time ago when it was determined that heavy displacement hulls found it difficult to exceed the so-called hull speed unless they had very high power.

In deep water the celerity of a wave train is given by:
V=sqrt(g x Wavelength / (2 PI)) (g is gravitational constant 9.8m/s/s in mks or 32ft/s/s in British units)

If you have WL in ft and speed in knots then it is:
V= sqrt(WL*32/2/pi)*3600/6080 kts
= 1.34 * sqrt(WL)

Rick W

[Chris Ostlind]

... So that gives an average speed length ratio of between 1.53 and 1.64.

There is nothing in fluid dynamics that says that once you reach 1.34 all further speed is impossible. What it does say is that it takes rapidly increasing amounts of power - for these kinds of disp/length ratios. On that day power was not an issue.


Cube, the ratio does not change, just because you are moving in a favorable current. The VMG might change, but the hull speed coefficient remains the same, as does your ability to move through the water.

You can get a faster hull that planes, or you can get a faster hull that is a heck of a lot longer and skinnier, but that hull you have there is going to be... that hull. Unless, of course, you have a magic new kind of math that wiggles around the realities that have been accepted for a century now and are applied by naval architects the world over..

Yes, you are right, you might be able to go faster with that hull... provided that you mash her into the sea with a prodigous sail rig (which is not in evidence, no matter what you may have been flying) and produce an incredible amount of power well beyond anything you indicate that was safely available... as in something like triple the generated horsepower and the boat is trimmed and built, to benefit... and you have the sand (some would say it's actually something different than sand) to go out and do it.

Take a long look at the start of this season's Vendee Globe, as it left from Sables d'Olonne, France. The fleet is composed of some of the best, solo monohull sailors on the planet, with the absolute best equipment that can be used. Yet, they tried like hell to run with a storm that was pounding the Bay of Biscay with winds and sea states similar to those you describe and they got, collectively, their butts kicked but good. This is the very same region of the Atlantic that you describe in your narrative.

Many of the VG sailors (Michel Desjoyeux, "The Professor", for one) had to return to shore to repair broken bits and wait for the thing to subside. The ones that did press on were doing all they could to stay alive and safely knock-out the same kinds of boat speeds you say you handled easily with a boat about one third the LOA.

Like I said, Cube, I love the story and have a great deal of affinity for those who can tell a good yarn. I'm going to leave it at that.

[Tcubed]

Sound like a lot of armchair talk from someone who has a poor grasp of the fundamental equations .
I do not have the time to counter attacks from someone openly insinuating i am not reporting the truth of the events as they were.
You display the primary characteristics of prejudice, pouring scorn over what you do not understand, instead of engaging in rational discussion to see where the truth really lies.

[RichR]

How about this one

http://www.bymnews.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=367&pid=73069

[Chris Ostlind]

How about this one

8 knots easy in a gale with a loooong sprit and a chute flying for max effect. Dude hooked-up and disappeared over the horizon with a white whale on his, errr, transom and pink dolphins leading the way to safety.

;-)

McNally is quite the guy. Certainly one of but a few on this planet, but quite the guy, nevertheless.

[Guest62110524]

chris ostlind
something I am missing then, my last 48 foot wl was very happy sailing in full gale at 13 knots,, her 48 sq rt 1.34 giving theoretical 9.34 and under power flat tit she would do 10, Guess this is what T cubed was saying Nimbus is not a planing sailing yacht

[Chris Ostlind]

Good for you, Whoosh.

Don't get too excited, though. My 20 ft. trimaran does 30knots all day and night without the screacher up and man does that water spray hurt. ;-)

Please refer back to the post by Rick Willoughby from this afternoon. Have a good look at the info shown there and get back to us.

[Guest62110524]

Good for you, Whoosh.

Don't get too excited, though. My 20 ft. trimaran does 30knots all day and night without the screacher up and man does that water spray hurt. ;-)

Please refer back to the post by Rick Willoughby from this afternoon. Have a good look at the info shown there and get back to us.
nah I sleep well, surfin down waves with my 8mm formed ally bottom, Ill, pilot your boat, then get off when dark comes:))

[Landlubber]

Tcubed,

Don't loose faith mate, I am sure there are many of us on this forum that have exceeded calculated hull speed for many days at a time, you say you did it, you did it, no worries mate.

[Landlubber]

I have had people question me on occassions wondering where we anchored for the night at sea!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris Ostlind]

Clearly, the canoe body suggests a full displacement form. It has been said that the subject could not only quickly achieve hull speed, but was capable of long, sustained periods of motion when speeds well beyond the theoretical could be generated and effortlessly maintained. You may even call it loafing along, if that suggests a proper image to your liking. These speeds could be expressed in all forms of weather and sea state, as there was always a bigger, objective purpose beyond the minor inconvenience of the meteo realities.

The fact that it's a dinosaur, well, let's just say that the irony is hovering on the fully realized side of the equation and let it go at that. It is germane to the discussion on many levels, not the least of which, that it was typically 24' LOA, placing it squarely in the same realm as the craft of our boy, TCube.

[venomousbird]

Okay, this thread is getting flat out strange now. . .

[diwebb]

Hi,
in my younger days about 40 years ago I owned a 19 foot itchen ferry and she was timed at ten and a half knots over approximately two miles betwen buoys, when racing, in 25 knots of wind and setting 550 sq. ft. of sail ( the whole crew sitting at the transom to keep the bow out of the water and the stern wave a good six feet behind the transom). I built a modified Bruce Roberts Offshore 38 in California and frequently sailed her at 12 knots for extended periods of time reaching and running in winds of 25 to 40 knots. So I have no problems in believing TC when he extolls the benefits of the Itchen Ferry design. I just wish I could have been with him on such an epic sail!!!
David

[Tcubed]

People who really know what they are talking about know that i have no reason to exaggerate. I would only lose credibility. However, there are always people with limited experience who believe they know more than they do and are quick to ridicule what they do not believe to be possible.

Well, no one got to share that experience with me. I prefer not to have men crew, and sometimes finding a willing lady does not happen.

When running in heavy airs like that i observed also the very big difference between static and dynamic stability, reinforcing my thinking that static stability righting moment polars are very limited when it comes to accurately describing the motions of a boat at speed in a seaway.

In this particular example the boat would roll through increasing angles up to about 40 degrees either side and then would quieten down to smaller angles of say 10 degrees and then back again. That is as expected as disturbances get in and out of phase with the boats roll resonance and damping attenuates the motion. What was not as expected from static stability curves was the rate of roll acceleration throughout the cycle. As the boats max righting moment is beyond 40 deg it follows that the point of max roll acceleration should be at the instants of greatest heel, according to static stability polars. In actual fact the boat would sort of 'flop' onto its side and stay there for much longer than one would expect and then recover and very violently 'flop' over onto its other side.

Apart from the boat losing stability when creating a deep through for itself i think the speed was great enough to create dynamic forces on the keel and hull section 'flats' that encouraged to boat to lie on its side and which had the effect of counteracting partially the rise of static righting moment in the range of angles described. The extreme case would be seen if accepting a tow from a ship which carried on at its normal cruise speed. Assuming the boat survived such violent abuse (the old pilots of the Bristol channel who thought nothing of the stinkiest weather would get very scared when towed by ships, even though the speed would not be anywhere as ridiculous as in the following hypothetical) at say 18 knots , i imagine the boat would plane on its side. So i imagine i was seeing the very beginnings of that effect superimposed upon the more normal expected roll response.

[Chris Ostlind]

You two guys (diwebb and Tcube) just crack me up. I mean this in the most loving fashion, of course. Take a long look at your two stories and then tell me if there aren't any major discrepancies in the supposed facts of the events.

diwebb says that he and his crew had to ride the transom while flying a monster amount of sail in but 25 knots. Cube wants us to believe that he did his claimed 8 knot average while he was dosing along with a teensy storm cloth up in 40 knots with no crew for pitching ballast, such as utilized by diwebb and on and on... AND it went on like that for TWO DAYS!

Two whole days while averaging his claimed 8 knots, all while he fixed himself something to eat, got to go below to pinch a loaf, get his head together and whatever else Cubey may have done on this wild epic in 40 knot storm driven mountainous seas.

Melville would just love to read the stuff you two are putting out.

Go read the skipper entries for the first week of the current Vendee Globe when the fleet was battered by 40 knot winds and towering seas. Several of the boats had to return to port for repairs with a couple of them out of the race due to dismastings and other maladies. Keep in mind that these are 60 foot boats, designed for the rigors of the Southern Ocean at racing speeds.. and they were getting their butts kicked in serious fashion. The same type of conditions, mind you, that our boy Cube wishes to tell us that drove his wonderful saga in but a 22 foot craft.

http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/

These kinds of stories are the lovely, boastful sailing claims that typically come out of the heads of folks who think they have a lot more experience than others and they can just buffalo their reports at some seaside bar. All that is missing for you guys is a couple of shoulder mounted parrots, an eyepatch or two, a gnarly two week unshaven mug, that ever-present horizontally striped shirt and a pair of those dorky, Greek fisherman caps.... and about eight empty beer glasses arrayed before you on the bar.

I enjoyed the stories, guys... lots of folks reading here did too, but please, give it a rest and Cubey... do take a moment to understand that you are hovering right on the edge of civility and about to blow your cover. For the record, I'm a lot more inclined to buy diwebb's version, simply because it addresses the business of crew positions, boat trim realities and the fact that he claims it only went on for two miles. With favorable currents, nicely timed surfing conditions and whatever boat speed could be mustered, this just might be possible... for two miles. Two days is a whole other bit of business. Two days in 40 knots is an eternity for a human being in a small boat.

Like I said, nice yarns. Unless, of course, both of you characters are willing to acknowledge my unproved claims of having made it from L.A. to Hawaii in a time that bested the big, 80' monosleds.... on a 21' Reynolds beach cat while sailing SOLO with no sleep, at the leading edge of an east Pacific low that tracked steady all the way to Oahu. Oh, did I mention that I flew a hull the entire distance, only once touching down when I had to put some fresh charcoal on the stern mounted BBQ? Freshly caught Mahi-mahi is just so tasty when grilled promptly. It was a bit difficult to man the sheets and the tiller while spin-casting a flashy spoon off the stern, but it's a highly rewarding experience and I recommend it.

This gnarly, epic adventure certainly ranks me among the greatest small craft sailors on the planet at any bar or grill in a neighborhood near you.

Laters, fellow story tellers. May we meet over a beer some day and have a friendly yarn spinning contest. ;-)


I love to sit around the yacht club bar
and talk about the things I'm going to do.
I love to sit around the yacht club bar
because it doesn't move.
The swells are big and the winds are high
but that don't bother me.
Cause I never get lost and my tummy doesn't toss
It's a wonderful life on the sea.
My boat it is a small one boys. My crew it is the best.
I race around the entrance buoy beating all the rest.
I'm the first one home with a bent elbow and a powerful salt spray thirst.
I sit around and drink all night and see who comes in first.

(borrowed from Lin and Larry Pardey)

[Capn Mud]

I have been thinking about the original question myself and wondering how to put it to them forum. This thread seems to offer the opportunity for comments from some wise heads.

More specifically wondering if my 25 foot Swarbrick Pinnacle (somewhat modified) is up to the task of an ocean crossing, single handed. Refer attached.

The next question then is am I up to it....

And finally - how to get the wife's permission ;-)

[Tcubed]

Say Chris, pray do tell me and the members what experience you have that enables you to put so much heart felt fervor and passion into debunking my contributions?

[Chris Ostlind]

Bubba Cube... I don't have to reveal anything of my experience to call you out on your wild and wooley claims. That responsibility is totally yours in order to support your story in the face of what is and has been, known in the boating industry for some time now.

Now, if sailors weren't, in fact, very much like fishermen in their zeal to expand upon their tales, then the issues could be brought forward with a clean and factual aspect. As it is, the numbers you wish to suspend before the readers do not add up from the boat you described. Well, not unless you have super powers beyond mortal men and I have this sneaky suspicion that is not the case.

Why don't you produce a verifiable GPS track with sufficient data to back-up your claim. These data should be produced by a reputably manufactured unit with sufficient accuracy to provide justification of the claims as made. Make that so and I'll gladly back away from my busting of your boating prowess.

Can't produce that, then the story is just that... a story and nothing more. Get in line with Jonah, Homer, Sinbad, Verne and Melville. That's pretty colorful company and should keep you quite content.

Cube... there's nothing at all wrong with a good yarn. I love them dearly and deeply respect the time honored tradition of a well told sailing story. The danger is in taking them too seriously.

[GTO]

And I wonder how Yankee Girl ( 10 feet LOA ) and Tinkerbelle ( 13-14 feet LOA ) managed to cross the Atlantic without being broken up.

One plywood, the other planked and an added plywood cabin. Is it their small size that kept the forces acting upon them within surviveable limits?

I don't think either one of them would be considered comfortable, but certainly meet the minimalist specification.

[apex1]

Is it their small size that kept the forces acting upon them within surviveable limits?
certainly meet the minimalist specification.

You gave the right hint. Where the toy survives, the supertanker gets destroyed. In terms of structural strentgh the nutshell always wins.
Regards
Richard

[Tcubed]

Chris, i was hoping for something a bit stouter from you but you're disappointingly predictable. Your cop out underlines your lack of real experience. Aside from reading the vendee website of course.

I was born and raised on my fathers sailboat and including my own voyages have over 65 000 ocean miles experience.

Had i used a GPS (i have always used a sextant) it would make no difference to you since i would be just reporting the numbers to you. With your logic, there is no reason to believe anything anyone here writes that you personally do not believe to be true. Also by discarding any information that falls outside your restricted belief system you prevent yourelf from gaining any really worthwhile and new insights.

You remind me of the many kids at the schools i've attended (fifteen in all around the world) who would want to know what happened to my mother and when i would explain that she had been shot dead by pirates would laugh, ridicule and accuse me of lying. I used to find this very upsetting as i've been brought strict and honesty is something i highly value. But then i understood that they were just ignorant kids and they could not accept as real something that lay so far outside their sphere of experience.

The reason i do not use my surname as a handle is because i want to be known for myself, rather than ride on my father's fame. Also it is my company logo. There are already some readers here who've connected the dots and know my name, now there will be more.

You're sixty something, one would hope for more broadness of understanding than you exhibit.

At no point did i claim to be superhuman, the trip to be extraordinary, the entire crossing to be fast, or in fact that there was a storm during the two days remarkable run, or that i was sat back relaxing whilst the boat was surfing down big waves. Those are your embellishments made in ignorance to enhance the wit you believe to be contributing.

What i find particularly funny is the maths show clearly there is no reason a sailboat can exceed its 'hullspeed' given enough power. When going downwind the longitudinal righting moment is much larger than the transversal righting moment so the boat can be pressed much harder than otherwise. Add to that consistently surfing down the waves and there is no tall tale whatever (my intent was illustrative not boastful) if you could just drop your absurd ageing surfer posturing.

[Chris Ostlind]

Cubey,

I never had you pegged for a Doug Lord clone, but I guess that there's a surprise around every corner.

Doug makes bombastic claims on a regular basis and has nothing at all of substance to back up said claims... you have done your best to follow his lead. "I can boast, says The Cube, but I can't prove it"

Doug enters the realm of personal vitriol once confronted by a person who calls him out on his fairly tale... you find it important to do the same.

Doug lifts the realm of credulity to new heights with the art of the poseur seeking glorified redemption... and now, with this grog soaked, bar room, slobber song.... so do you.

[Chris Ostlind]

Doug,

Do you have MS Word, old chap? You might want to run that last bit through from a cut and paste to clean-up a few minor details of grammar and spelling. A repost is just a precious few keystrokes away after that and you'll be so much more credible.

Just a friendly hint from a bloke who marvels at your use of the language.

[Doug Lord]

Cubey,

I never had you pegged for a Doug Lord clone, but I guess that there's a surprise around every corner.

Doug makes bombastic claims on a regular basis and has nothing at all of substance to back up said claims... you have done your best to follow his lead. "I can boast, says The Cube, but I can't prove it"

Doug enters the realm of personal vitriol once confronted by a person who calls him out on his fairly tale... you find it important to do the same.

Doug lifts the realm of credulity to new heights with the art of the poseur seeking glorified redemption... and now, with this grog soaked, bar room, slobber song.... so do you.
=========================================

Nuts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ostlind, you use ridicule and innuendo so often in your attack posts that one would think you consider yourself a master of some sort of art form. In reality your personal attacks, name calling and flowery absurdities reak more of bad graffiti seen in a mens room.
You,sir, seek to diminish your "targets" by any means necessary and you play fast and loose with the facts in your quest. But you have diminished yourself way more than you have diminished anyone else. You disregard facts that don't fit your preconceived notions and then speak of your fantasies as if they were facts. In the last few months your posts have become more vitriolic ,more personal attack oriented and deliberately obstructionist in some threads. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with me and what I stand for and that has slowly eroded your ability to think clearly. I think you probably have serious problems and should consider getting help. Brother, you really need help.

[Chris Ostlind]

Ahh, yes, pull the previous post because it was such a poor example of the English language, spend the time doing an edit that you should have done in the beginning and then reposting the same old blather...


And some folks on other Fora have referred to you in unflattering tones... now why would they do such a thing? Getting sent to the Sailing Anarchy, You've Been Banned, prison cell for one month... that was just a coincidence?

[Capn Mud]

Guys guys guys............... enough with the bickering which is getting off topic a bit now.

Any chance of some more responses to the original question?

I myself was hoping someone might look at my post #37 and respond in some meaningful way.

Cheers,
Andrew

[Tcubed]

Capn Mud,

My honest opinion is that i would not use that boat for ocean crossings.

Some of the reasons are ;

Big portholes in hull and huge porthole in cabin. A big wave impact could break one and suddenly make the boat extremely vulnerable.

Big cockpit. Get a big wave onboard and suddenly the boat is wallowing under an enormous amount of sloshing weight draining away agonizingly slowly so much more vulnerable to the next waves coming up.

Shrouds set inboard on a bulkhead have never convinced me. The mast is stepped on deck (?) not really a plus either imo. If the roller furler ever jams when a wind is growing , not so pretty either.

But that is just me and plenty of not so optimal boats have done crossings and lived to tell about it.

[apex1]

More specifically wondering if my 25 foot Swarbrick Pinnacle (somewhat modified) is up to the task of an ocean crossing, single handed. Refer attached.

The next question then is am I up to it....

And finally - how to get the wife's permission ;-)

To your last question: naturally you will.. the accommodation is´nt sufficient to house your mistress on such a trip!
........... read: comfort is a much underestimated issue on a passage, the lack of it is immediately leading to fatal fatigue!
To the second: naturally not! What are you doing on such a long trip without your darling?

To the first: sorry no! As the triple T stated above:

Big portholes in hull and huge porthole in cabin. A big wave impact could break one and suddenly make the boat extremely vulnerable.
Big cockpit. Get a big wave onboard and suddenly the boat is wallowing under an enormous amount of sloshing weight draining away agonizingly slowly so much more vulnerable to the next waves coming up.

Regards
Richard

[JotM]

I feel sorry about the derailment of the discussion, because I think there is an interesting and possibly very useful discussion (especially for a boat design forum) just underneath the surface here.
(literally)

First of all I am wondering how the speed / daily distance was measured by T3 and Whoosh. My guess is by means of a log based on a transducer fitted in or near the keelson. Am I right?

It just might be so that T3, Whoosh and Chris are all right, as in every one of them.

[alan white]

More amazing things happen when there aren't so many witnesses. That is the nature of reality. Ask any quantum physicist. A Spaniard from the Christopher Colombus voyage took over the helm of Joshua Slocum's Spray when he fell ill, steering a perfect course.
Nothing is impossible except to exceed the speed of perception.

[JotM]

Am I the only one who figures that the speed at which the water is passing by the hull isn't the same as the speed at which the hull is moving through the water?
Coming to think of it, I suspect T^3 almost capsized his boat and it didn't even shake him up.

edit:
I will work out my thoughts in a new thread I will put in "boat design"'. Off to bed now.
Before T^3's observation I never realized the danger the combination of the insights of Archimedes with Bernoulli's principle can make us understand.
... When running in heavy airs like that i observed also the very big difference between static and dynamic stability, reinforcing my thinking that static stability righting moment polars are very limited when it comes to accurately describing the motions of a boat at speed in a seaway.

[...] What was not as expected from static stability curves was the rate of roll acceleration throughout the cycle. As the boats max righting moment is beyond 40 deg it follows that the point of max roll acceleration should be at the instants of greatest heel, according to static stability polars. In actual fact the boat would sort of 'flop' onto its side and stay there for much longer than one would expect and then recover and very violently 'flop' over onto its other side.

[JotM]

Dear Tcubed and Whoosh,

I still do care about your answer. How and where did you measure your speed / daily distance? (A log? In that case, where was the transducer placed?)

Regards,

Jaap

[Tcubed]

Well had i known the show that would ensue after posting best days runs i would have omitted that detail. My intent was only to illustrate an example of a suitable small ocean crossing boat. But now it's there, so let me expound some.

Local flow velocity is indeed different to far field velocity. That is how foils work and indeed the whole study of fluid dynamics. The boat's velocity is always defined as far field. Therefore hull mounted paddle type logs will always measure faster than far field velocity and should be calibrated for the particular hull and log position on said hull. As for logs that trail on a string they're much more bother than they're worth.

I bought the boat and it had a skin mounted paddlewheel type log, depth sounding bump and a host of other through hulls every single [1] one of which i removed. I also stripped the underwater hull of all paint and rebuilt with many layers of primer and paint and a lot of sanding in between, so the bottom was about as good as it could get.

My measurements were purely from position , therefore over ground. Like i said before there is according to the charts between 0.5 and 1.0 SW current in that area. It can't have been more because the sea state would have been less. Anyone familiar with sailing in areas with current knows how powerful the effect of current is on sea state. In fact some of the most terrifying seas i've seen have been current against wind. The wind was 35 to 40 NE , my course roughly SW. The sky was mostly fair, the seas as expected for that wind. There is always a bit of water shear (wind dragging surface layers of water along) though, which is additional to current . I had no way of measuring that so one must use one's best deductions, as i've just stated above.

I did get pooped a couple times[2] during that stretch and i slept fitfully constantly nervous about broaching, but never did the boat waver more than 15 deg off course. That to me is what is remarkable about this , not the speed itself. In fact i am from the school that says that without control, theoretical speed remains just that, theoretical. In the whole crossing i only steered an hour at the beginning and an hour at the end. I'm waaay past the point where i think steering is fun. I used two different sheet to tiller methods depending on wind angle, which worked very well. Kind of a pain to set up for every sail change but very simple, cheap (required material; couple blocks, some line and some good bungee cords) and extremely effective.

[1] actually i did leave one through the transom just below the deck , for the bilge pump.

[2] the boat used to have an open cockpit which i solidly decked over, thus making the stern flush decked and creating a comfortable and ample sleeping area aft (who on earth wants to sleep in crews' quarters in the bow?, give me captains quarters aft any day, thank you!) which would not have been possible with the engine in the way also.

[wavepropulsion]

´Hi there everybody. Take a look at http://wavepropulsion.blogspot.com if you like to sail for a really budget, with an small boat. Just you need to be a bit fit.

[diwebb]

Hi Tcubed,
as discussed in my previous submission, I believe that you are sincere and honest in your statements and that your detractors underestimate some of the factors which you have declared in your posts. The effect of the south westerly current and the surface current created by the sustained powerful winds could have affected your over the ground speed by as much as three knots. This would bring the actual through the water daily runs well within the theoretical hull speed of the boat. I have experienced this effect on a number of occasions and posted short and daily runs that without these factors would appear to be impossible on a thereoretical designed speed basis. It seems that your detractors have never experienced the conditions that created your run, so are speaking from a theoretical basis not from a real world knowledge of the subject. However it still must have been one hell of a ride!!

All the best,
David

[diwebb]

Hi, back to the original subject of this discussion. T cubed's assertion the an Itchen Ferry style of boat makes a suitable small offshore cruisng boat is one that I agree with wholeheartedly. The Pardeys Serrafinne and Talesin designed by Lyle Hess are both based on this style of hull and have performed very well in their total of three circumnavigations. The Bristol Channel Cutters also designed by Lyle Hess are very good cruising boats and many of them have cruised extensively. The Bruce Bingham designed Flica, built by Pacific Seacraft is a bit small in my opinion but many have completed creditable long cruises, they are again similar in many respects to the Itchen Ferry. So if looking for a small cruising boat one of the Itchen Ferry type would be my recommendation as well.
Another type that has also cruised extensively is the Dory yacht as designed by Jay Benford, his designs start at about 26 feet and go up to 37 feet long and many of them have made creditable and safe cruises.
David

[science abuse]

Having a bit in common with the origional poster (That being little experience with aspirations of great journeys), I think the nature of the suggestions are somewhat missing the point:
This gent just wants to do it, not do it fast. It seems like he's only got two basic requirements:
-Big enough to live in.
-Wont break/sink when it gets knocked down.

With secondary requirements being "keeps my stuff dry", and "easy to single hand".

He doesn't need an Open 30 when a Suhaili will get him there. He could probably make it in a Lightning, if there were room for the massive balls required to cross an ocean in one. :)

[Harold B]

After over 21 years commercial fishing on large and small boats I have some points to make. The first consideration is safty, the second is adversity. What will the boat do to make me miserable, I am not joking some boats will beat you to death on any voyage longer than a week. You definatly (times two) want a sea kindly boat that means a long water line and wieght. I have been on smaller fiberglass fishing boats that were light wieght that had a quick motion, the owners added three tons of lead outboard in the bilges to slow down the quick rolling motion and make the boat more sea kindly and usable without beating the crew to death. A lot of smaller vessels are completly able (technacally) to cross oceans but the crew will suffer greatly in these little ocean going torture chambers. Captian Joshua Slocum wrote a book about circumnavagating the world single handed and his boat the Spray was a good choice by an experienced mariner. The only change I would make to his vessel is to go to a schooner rig to have more easily handled small sails than a few large sails and to make self sailing a reality not just a wish because after more than an hour, the helm becomes a cruel tyrant. Read Joshua Slocum's book, adventure should be more than a exercise in discomfort.

[science abuse]

That is one of the most quotable posts I've seen on this forum. Thanks for the insight, Harold.