boat builders, what are we worth

[Guest62110524]

Ok you spent 4 years doing your "time" then you spent 40 years learning the trade
You set up alone
You spent 100k on gear
Your lawyer stings you for 400 an hr, your tooth doc the same, your accountant 200, your car fixer 60 cos you have not time to fix it yourself
So what are your rates

Do you say to your lawyer"well thats 200 for half hour consultation, or do you spend the day talking abt his new boat, for free?
Suspect latter
had my own bizz building yachts cetara since 85, never got rich, made friends
What,s your view?
dont ferget you a re in charge 3m project

[Wynand N]

This is going to be fun,,,:cool:

Stuart, Naval Architects charge anything from about US$90 - US300 per hour for consulting or drawing a design that is really not so difficult and does not break a sweat, cut half off his finger or get "damaged" in anyway.:confused:

But us poor builders must build a boat just short of free and still a client would try to dry you out more, but he would gladly pay the above mentioned fee you mentioned to services receives without batting an eyelid.

Most days I spent about 3 hours daily to talk to wannabe boat owners, doing quotes (you take a computer for a repair quote, you get charged hourly for that priviledge) advising potential customers etc etc. Wonder what they would if I say; OK, deposit so much per hour and my ears are yours to use. Tell you what, almost all would disappear like mist before the sun.:D

Funny thing, I cannot see a lawyer before I put down his fee in advance and if any instruction are to be issued, a handsome deposit. Same with doctor, bookkeeper, the whorehouse....

[Fanie]

The problem is not to build another boat. Any boat for that matter, I think almost any boat builder can do that.

The thing that determines your 'worth' in terms of income is how many boats you have to build.

If you have one boat per year, well, you're going to complain some.

If you have them towing outside your yard and you cannot get the boats out fast enough, you'll be smiling.

In my opinion, you determine your own worth. It should be even more fun naming the things you can do to draw the customers to you.

First one I can think of is **** attitude of boat builders. Recently spoke with a few, they pissed me off with their crappy attitude... unless boat builders have no personality which I doubt. Needless to say I'll avoid these characters as far as possible. They want my money, I won't beg for them to take it ;)

[Fanie]

The second thing to mention would be costs. Some boat builders charge much much more than any other trade. Seems they forget, the customer is not buying the boat yard.

There is a line where a price is fair, below that you shoot yourself in the foot, over that you are ripping.

Seems some guys rip so much just in case they're not getting another job for the rest of the year.

Some seems to think - a sucker born every minute.

[Fanie]

What you are actually getting... seems the next logical point.

You get quoted on the best, then when the building starts, it gets done as cheaply as possible with as many shortcuts.

The one trade where the customer is never right.

[Petros]

You all seem to forget something: it does not matter how long it takes you to get experiance, educated or licneced, it does not matter what your overhead costs are, what the material costs or your labor costs or your cost of living.

The only thing that matters is what a willing buyer will pay for your product or services. So either you have to find out a way to make a living WITHIN what a customer is willing to pay, or you must change careers to be able to feed yourself. You either have to do your job so good customers are willing to pay more for it, or you find a way to do it faster or cheaper to bring in more customers. Learn to avoid the bottom fishers who will abuse your time and always want something for nothing, you can not make them happy no matter how much money you are willing to loose on them.

You choose your career, learn to live within it or get out. And stop whinning about how much other people make in different careers, you could have choosen those instead but you did not.

[Guest62110524]

fanie you sound peeved
when i quote I do my very best to build that boat as well as I can, with the best materials I can find
Said so many times, there are no short cuts
In this ind. word gets around very fast and it takes a million good words to get rid of one bad one
Wyn is dead right
if I start lose money on a job its my fault, I dont ask for more
only time I made money was when i had nine men on, my charge out in 1990 was 36, the men got up to 22, if they were less skilled the owner did not get slugged 36, but a sum I judged was fitting the output of the person doing the work
in 08 terms, if I had 100k to 400 k of gear I would still only be able charge say 60, of course I would have nowhere near 400 unless I had a shop full exp machine tools
Once more if I had to do work twice cos I stuffed it:)) then in was on me

[Fanie]

fanie you sound peeved
Can I call it disappointed ?

My friend had himself a brand new boat made by order. Paid upfront. First boat. All seemed great at first, then trouble started.

The boat is extremely heavy. Whoever did the glass layups obviously have no idea of boat building. The glass where it should have been 6mm is closer to 15mm. It did not add strength, it added a hell of a lot of weight.

The hull is foam filled. As far as I know the 2 part foam is a heat insulator, not a flotation foam. I can see the weight getting worse over time.

The trailer supplied has an axle and not a rub axle as I insisted he insists on. No, they don't use rub axle's. My friend had to take it as is (first time sucker). The boat rides so high, you almost need special equipment to get it launched. Six people doesn't get it off the trailer.

Second problem the trailer is made from tubing, this developed some cracks which had to be repaired - for free but the fuel to drive it to the builder is R500 there and the same back.

Third problem, the trailer is around 150kg+ on the ball (for this size boat !!) You cannot weigh it with a bathroom scale. They recon it's normal. We moved the wheels some, it's now 75kg's...

Some cracks on the gunnel gell coat, that was fixed too.



Manie was here earlier today and we discussed the same thing. He showed me some adds for boats that the costs doesn't seem too bad. He said you cannot believe the poor workmanship.

Actually, these people are not boat builders. They tell an illiterate (with an IQ of 60) to build a boat who indiscretely throw a heap of materials in a mould and the customer should take it or bye bye payment. Seems the so called boat builder is too buzy spending the money to see what his philamon does. Too many of them around off late. Tactic is to wear the complaining customer out after 200 phone calls and no joy.

I had 3 boats built for me by the same guy before I started buggering around with doing it myself. This guy would sit with you and discuss what you want, he'd phone you up after that and made suggestions to some improvements. Friendly, active, involved. There was always people in his shop that had boats built, and he was actively involved in the boat being built. The glass layups was the right thicknesses, his trailers worked and his boats felt right, to fresh or to sea.

As I said, I've spoken with a few boat builders lately. It seems if you don't buy a boat right away they have better things to do. I would never ever buy anything from these guys.

[Guest62110524]

I am sorry for you mate, you really have to ask around before you pick a builder and get references
bit late now
I gave 5 years warranty on my hulls now upped to 10, A boat is one big wad of cash to part with
A relationship with an owner and builder is special, you have to form a bond, first. Thats the way i found it anyways
yes there a lot of bad uns around, and since CAD EVEN MORE people who are just a guy with a saw and welder getting in and (boatbuilding) esp in aluminium

[Fanie]

If you sell something to a customer, sell the product, don't sell the new machine you bought last month, the customer won't pay that. I had a guy who was going to bring me something from JHB, 80 odd km away. He decided to take the scenic route through CT and DBN (2500km) and wanted me to pay for it. My reaction was obvious :D.

A relationship with an owner and builder
Of course. You have to start somewhere. It's like any other business...

[Wynand N]

Fanie,

There are boat builders and boat builders. I think Whoosh had real boatbuilders (ocean going sail boats etc, and not trailer power boats)) in mind when he started this interesting thread.

I sympathize with you and others that had their fingers burnt with powerboat runabouts built in SA, but that is a reality people has to live by if buying here. That said, some small boat builders do build good boats, but as Whoosh mentioned, you have to fish for them.

The problem in SA is basically this, you have some backyard blokes doing some GRP patch work and car parts for example and it is usually these type of persons turning boatbuilders as they "evolved". Of course 99% of them has no formal training in the properties and strength of the medium they work, and suddenly he is building boats....:eek: OTOH, I have in my shop a boat hull by a famous yard and that hull is so flimsy, I wont step on it on water.
To prove my point about backyard guys turning boatbuilders; 45 years ago my late father bought himself a canoe (early days of GRP) and today I can still buy that same canoe, albeit with a slight change on the deck or so, but in principle the same thing right down to three "rails" in the bottom. An these things are death traps - just try to sit and row one. No one had sat down and though to himself, perhaps this thing can be redesigned and made safer.:confused:
Over the years this canoe was copied and copied and the same applies for power boats. It is these copy cat guys that produces hulls and the best part is they do not know the meaning of basic terms like, LCG, LCB, CP etc....

And of course the Philamon phenomenon in this country - no need to expand on that.

As to your first reply; it is not the case of a builder (big boats) build one or ten boats a year, it is about people that takes a builders time for granted but would gladly pay for other services and advise, like for instance an attorney. We are also professional people and time is money, and that applies to every professional discipline and I think this is the issue Whoosh tried to raise with the thread.

You choose your career, learn to live within it or get out. And stop whinning about how much other people make in different careers, you could have choosen those instead but you did not.

This guy shows the attitude of the average boating customer and would be the typical guy that walks into my premises, drink my coffee, waste my time for 2 hours or more, gained a lot of information and walk away - all that for free....:rolleyes:
Wonder what his attitude would have been if be was a builder:?:

To go a bit off topic. In SA you cannot make a living building boats only, in my case steelboats, orders are far and few between. One has to diversify. I run a general steel fabrication shop, traveling shotblast unit, hire labour, and on the boating side, have a GRP line consisting of a 14ft bass boat runner, 18 ft day sailer (molds busy), radical new canoe, 3m dinghy, bait boats and some other domestic fibre products. And a full time rep marketing these things now...
And with all that I would be lucky to make a few bob....

[Guest62110524]

ok I will make you a fake passport Eu, and you can come with me:)) tee hee,

[Ilan Voyager]

The thread illustrates perfectly why I stayed far of the yachting "market" and worked only in the pro field, where dreamers are uncommon and everybody knows what's quality at fair price.

I had a small shipyard with an associate (and friend), we had a simple rule; if the margin is not good enough we did not make it. We diversified also. Happily for us, we have been at the right place in the good time with good products and innovative methods so we earned good money. That's luck, nowadays it seems to be more difficult.

[Guest62110524]

The thread illustrates perfectly why I stayed far of the yachting "market" and worked only in the pro field, where dreamers are uncommon and everybody knows what's quality at fair price.

I had a small shipyard with an associate (and friend), we had a simple rule; if the margin is not good enough we did not make it. We diversified also. Happily for us, we have been at the right place in the good time with good products and innovative methods so we earned good money. That's luck, nowadays it seems to be more difficult.

SO WHY ARE YOU HERE?
most people are dreamers here?
thanks for you poor comments to Dix abt me, esp after I had given you pos feedback
I think my gallery speaks for ME!! and I am proud of being a boatbuilder for DREAMERS And whoever wants to build a boat, I build for commercial people and poor dreamers
GOODDAY to you

[Wynand N]

SO WHY ARE YOU HERE?
most people are dreamers here..... and I am proud of being a boatbuilder for DREAMERS And whoever wants to build a boat, I build for commercial people and poor dreamers
GOODDAY to you

Ditto here and that's why I am a poor but proud boatbuilder....

[sabahcat]

I did my apprenticeship building 100ft plus super yachts and then went onto working on smaller custom projects.

I got out of the game because I got sick of owners wanting me to work to a price, yet wanting the super standard.

The worst culprit was a specialist on $400 an hour quibbling over my rate of pay half way through building a performance vessel that would have to safely carry his wife, children and friends on.

That was the end for me and now I just do my own stuff and make money other ways.

[Ilan Voyager]

Oh la la Wynand and woosh. What a nervousness. Keep cool, men. It's a little semantic problem.

Dreamer = Someone dreaming, only dreaming. He will never realize the dream. He wants a new 30 feet sailboat with 3 double beds and panoramic windows for the price a used VW Rabbit and will never admit that's impossible. Becomes often paranoiac. He sucks your time.

Ok, now you see the kind of guy I name "dreamer". If you have a better word, tell me.

Do not confound with the guy who dreamed once and wants to realize that dream. He stays the 2 feet on the earth, and after getting information he will evaluate the possibilities of realization. If he estimates that he can; this dream becomes a goal and will work very hard.

Often the guy underestimates the amount of work and money, but generally he is able to understand and to choose a more reachable goal like a 38 feet boat instead of a 55 feet. He's the prototype of the amateur builder.
Those who have some experience in boatbuilding have the duty to help him. It's one of the purposes of a forum like Boat Design.

Why I am here woosh? Simply for reading your posts!

Post Scriptum. Do not consider yourselves as poor. Look around you and discover what's true poverty. The poor has not time to spend on a computer he can't afford, he tries to survive.

[Ilan Voyager]

Sabahcat. I have heard many stories like yours. I agree with you; the worst people is the rich "greedy guy", always bargaining, often bad payer.

Better to stay away from them, not always easy.

[Landlubber]

Politicians, priests, accountants and lawers.....keep them away from me and my life is in peace....there ya go Mas, you keep looking for Nirvana, try this formula.

[Petros]

This guy shows the attitude of the average boating customer and would be the typical guy that walks into my premises, drink my coffee, waste my time for 2 hours or more, gained a lot of information and walk away - all that for free....:rolleyes:
Wonder what his attitude would have been if be was a builder:?:

...

This kind of rude and uninformed response is uncalled for. I am a very experienced self-employed licensed engineer, I make my living by billing my time. So I know as much about people abusing my time as anyone, it just comes with the territory. I do not whine about it. And I also build boats, and if I ask for help I will be respectful of other people's time (as I wish other would be with mine) or I expect to pay for assistance.

Your response just sounds like more whining to me. I suggest you check your attitude, find another career, or figure out a way to productively dealing with people who waste your time. Size them up, and either start billing them or ask them to leave since you need to get back to work.

[Guest62110524]

This kind of rude and uninformed response is uncalled for. I am a very experienced self-employed licensed engineer, I make my living by billing my time. So I know as much about people abusing my time as anyone, it just comes with the territory. I do not whine about it. And I also build boats, and if I ask for help I will be respectful of other people's time (as I wish other would be with mine) or I expect to pay for assistance.

Your response just sounds like more whining to me. I suggest you check your attitude, find another career, or figure out a way to productively dealing with people who waste your time. Size them up, and either start billing them or ask them to leave since you need to get back to work.
Oh I am sure he was not whining, but the way you aggresively jumped into this thread it really sounds as though tis YOU , who has an attitude problem
I looked at your gallery, nothing, profile nothing , so why should we take notice perhaps you may show us the boats you have built, that would be a nice start:P thank you good night

[Kaptin-Jer]

After reading down this far I am convinced more then ever that I made the right decision NOT to go into the boat building business. I have built 6 boats that range in size from 78' to 22' and rebuilt 2. All for fun. It's my hobby, my therapy, and I am sure that as soon as I tried to turn it into a business I would be miserable. I call myself "semi-pro" because I barter my skills with other amateurs to get goods or services for my projects, but never for money. I regret not being able to work full time on my boat, but it's MY boat and I only have me to answer to.

[Fanie]

There are two ways at looking at people visiting. You can either see it as someone is wasting your time or you can see it as taking a break and building a relationship. Other people know things you don't and they have resources you don't. Do a bit of networking, you'll be surprised what you may find.

If people only visit you when they want you to build a boat, you may be a very lonely person and you will see others a couple of times a year. Jail is more sociable than this.

If you accomodate people, get to know them and have a bit of time for them, they are the ones that will refer others to you even if they themself never buy from you. Of course there are times you cannot talk to or spend time with someone, but I always make time to phone that person back and appologise for the circumstances.

Bussiness is not to make money. Business is to get and keep customers - the money is a spinoff.

[Tug]

I always thought a tradesman's wage was based on a bottle of scotch an hour...
Your work quality and professionalizm decides if its a single malt or blend...

Cheers
Tug

[Kaptin-Jer]

A boat builder I can relate too!!