Lugger Diesels outlawed.......!

[apex1]

It is a pity, six weeks ago I asked Lugger for a quotation and time of delivery for their 6170A Diesel and got this:


Dear Mr. R........,
please apologize for any delay in responding you, as far what I can see this is your first request which come to my attention.

As today we do have serious problem to meet our requirements as all our older models aren't in compliance with the new emission rules.

These engine will be replaced with a new model with a common rail fuel system but they availability is not known.

For now we do have the first model 11 liters called M 6125 which may meet your requirement. This engine should be available next next summer.

I will follow up with some details asap

Thank you for your kind interest.



NORTHERN LIGHTS
Mediterranean - Middle East Factory Representative
Massimo Mastrorosato: Via Gacci 4/6 - 59021 VAIANO - PO - ITALY
Tel. + 39 0574 985347 Fax + 39 0574 985286

I loved this beefy 23Ltr. set at 550hp @ 1500rpm, as the fishermen in Alaska did, for his incredible torque and reliability.
It was designated to propel via CPP a 90´ long range "Passagemaker" to be built this year in Turkey.
:?: How to substitute such Engine :?:
Is the CAT C18 the only option, or have I missed some???
Anyone out here with a valuable idea?
Regards
Richard

[Tad]

Commercial (continuous) rating on the MTU S60 is 475HP @ 1800

The Cummins KTA19 is one hell of engine, 500 HP @1800 continuous.

Mitsubishi S6R puts out 590HP @ 1600 continious, again a popular commercially used engine.

Personally I'd go with the Cummins, but much depends on specifically who the dealer/supplier is.

[whoosh]

Alaska diesel used mainly engines from Japan on their bigger MAINS , AND also on smaller like gensets where often jap engines were used
you can see Jap engines have lagged well behind Euro and Usa Engines as far as emissions go, that evident on the roads as you can see it in their trucks, smoking along
Alaska diesel is a very small company(used to buy direct) at one time off them I guess they went for cheap, although they have had a good rep for reliabilty
the Cummins Eng Co produces fish boat and work boat engines and gives backup like no other, they have such engines and have had for years and years The engines you talk of where just cheap, I guess thats why they were attractive, there was nothing unique about them at all
Just google Cummins, they have the pleasure boat site and the commercial site
I do know that Cummins are the leaders in mining here and some engines which ran 20000 hours in filthy quarry conditions were still not needing rebuilds
perhaps they are the most rebuildable engine out there,
it suprised me when I went to rebuild the engine in a large KOMATZU dozer, the engine was the 855 Cummins(855 cu Inch) the same block that has been the backbone of road transport all over the world in leading truck brands After 10000 hrs I just changed the bearings in place, they did not really need changing
Sorry tad did not see you post
yes the K19 is a top engine, in 1972 I used to Work for Cummins field service, was top then too!!!

[apex1]

Alaska diesel used mainly engines from Japan on their bigger MAINS , AND also on smaller like gensets where often jap engines were used
you can see Jap engines have lagged well behind Euro and Usa Engines as far as emissions go, that evident on the roads as you can see it in their trucks, smoking along
Alaska diesel is a very small company(used to buy direct) at one time off them I guess they went for cheap, although they have had a good rep for reliabilty

it suprised me when I went to rebuild the engine in a large KOMATZU dozer, the engine was the 855 Cummins(855 cu Inch) the same block that has been the backbone of road transport all over the world in leading truck brands After 10000 hrs I just changed the bearings in place, they did not really need changing
Sorry tad did not see you post
yes the K19 is a top engine, in 1972 I used to Work for Cummins field service, was top then too!!!

The joke behind that:...........................
the 6170 Lugger IS a KOMATSU block !!!:idea: ... was....actually

[whoosh]

yes this is what i meant, but oh God those Komatzus they had cast iron pistons!!!

[apex1]

Commercial (continuous) rating on the MTU S60 is 475HP @ 1800

The Cummins KTA19 is one hell of engine, 500 HP @1800 continuous.

Mitsubishi S6R puts out 590HP @ 1600 continious, again a popular commercially used engine.

Personally I'd go with the Cummins, but much depends on specifically who the dealer/supplier is.

Thank you TAD..........
I love our German brands like MAN, MTU and even DEUTZ in some cases. And without any doubt in high speed applications MTU or MAN are first names.

But I am an old dog and like the old fashioned beefy (displacement, or better more displacement), high torque, low rev. go anywhere Monsters.
On my second newbuilt in 1989 I had twin KTA 19 on my spec. sheet but Arie van Vulpen of "Lowland Yachts" told me that was his least choice, he put me CAT´s in. I still bear this in mind and never had a Cummins. Next try:?:
The Mitsubishi seems to be a beast of an engine and I know about their good reputation in commercial service. I´ll have a look.

I really agree with environmental friendly regulations, as I do with electronic Motormanagement to reduce emissions. But......
I have seen two of the ECM fail in my own Diesel cars, one Lancia one Mercedes (that happens yes).
If I need a Play Station I´ll get me a Sony! My propulsion has to be as simple as possible.......period

Recently, during a boat show, a CAT sales Rep. pointed out, that the ECM on his C18 are sealed to operate at a depth of 60´. I asked him if they did the test on a running engine:P and if it is possible to use the unit in a watertight engineroom as well. ....he loved me ....
My statement that I would be as fine with 6´than 60´ if he could assure me that the ECM is vibration proof did´nt impress him I guess.
But that is the point !!! These pumped up dish washer control units become destroyed by vibration. It happens every day a thousand times on our roads.
So which sort of mumbo - jumbo is employed when it comes to marine use?
IMHO it is MARKETING that they add, nothing else, the same stuff as on highway.
Or am I wrong?
Regards
Richard

[apex1]

yes this is what i meant, but oh God those Komatzus they had cast iron pistons!!!

What´s wrong with them? (in low revvving engines) their thermal behaviour is less tricky than alum.:?:

[whoosh]

the expansion of alloy is well knowm for instance it reaches max exp in less than boiling water, I know cos when you slip your gudgeoon pins in, you do it in hot water
Look there is nothing wrong with cast iron pistons, but times moved on eons ago I agree abt the engine controls, the central processors and all that, BUT Cummins were the first and goodness they have always been way in front as far as emissions go i would not drive an american car, they are junk(thats why the industry failed) I prefer German or Euro, but they do make a very good diesel
where are you? do you have msn or yahoo messenger?

[apex1]

the expansion of alloy is well knowm for instance it reaches max exp in less than boiling water, I know cos when you slip your gudgeoon pins in, you do it in hot water
Look there is nothing wrong with cast iron pistons, but times moved on eons ago I agree abt the engine controls, the central processors and all that, BUT Cummins were the first and goodness they have always been way in front as far as emissions go i would not drive an american car, they are junk(thats why the industry failed) I prefer German or Euro, but they do make a very good diesel
where are you? do you have msn or yahoo messenger?

Did´nt know anything about Cummins and still know nothing. Just Arie "Lowland" feared them and he was amongst the most famous names in yachtbuilding in the world. "pocket megayachts" the market named the "Lowlands"
The Americans build cars ? ? ? :confused:
I am in Istanbul actually, doing some business to keep the stove running. Building some yachts besides that. Know a few very experienced, still inexpensive boatbuilders around here. Some are my friends.
Don´t have msn or such tool but I have a sort of mess.......anger at my office, the staff is playing with that sh..t all day long. Kid´s

BTW whoosh.........
just 5 minutes ago I got a quotation for CAT C18´s 61.000€ ! Bobtail ... So what was cheap at Luggers?
Regards
Richard

[whoosh]

was down in Tr looking to start, but a young navel arch there told me, you can t trust us turks!! and sure enough I found , one moment they would tell you, 110, next day"oh we said 210" and so on so I gave up send pm with tel number will call you

[apex1]

was down in Tr looking to start, but a young navel arch there told me, you can t trust us turks!! and sure enough I found , one moment they would tell you, 110, next day"oh we said 210" and so on so I gave up send pm with tel number will call you
He was terribly right your young Turk!:p
But I am in a bit happy position to have some serious influence in this country and I get what I asked for, and right in time!
And if you find real friends amongst them, they do right and do it with pride. Besides of that there are really experienced shipwrights and boatbuilders here.
On top of that, I get the boats built and equipped to really highest standards including GL classification for about US$ 15 per lb !!!
You naturally know that "Maltese Falcon" was completely built here in Tuzla / Istanbul !?
SOME
Richard

[Tad]

20+ years of living with all three....GM, Cat, and Cummins on towboats. That's wide open all day and all night. First choice was always Jimmies, they run forever no worries, and the power was there right now!...but lots of noise, oil everywhere, and they gobbled the fuel. Cummins is quieter, cleaner, just as reliable, and stingy with the fuel. Cat is for those with money to throw around...as many failures as successes. Some great engines, 343 for instance, but also some real problem children. Just my experience, YMMV.

[apex1]

20+ years of living with all three....GM, Cat, and Cummins on towboats. That's wide open all day and all night. First choice was always Jimmies, they run forever no worries, and the power was there right now!...but lots of noise, oil everywhere, and they gobbled the fuel. Cummins is quieter, cleaner, just as reliable, and stingy with the fuel. Cat is for those with money to throw around...as many failures as successes. Some great engines, 343 for instance, but also some real problem children. Just my experience, YMMV.

Gawdelpus.............GM? I had a pair of them (was 6v71? or so?) edit: no they had 8 pots so read 8v71 instead - in a 53´Hatteras between 74 to 80, that was a real mess in the engine room. Cannot compare consumption nor noise, have seen the same engines in a Baglietto was much less noisy, but the Italian was wooden! Through the early seventies guzzling was not the issue Diesel was about 0,16 DM the Liter.
I´ll have a look at the Cummins and Mitsubishi:)
Richard

[whoosh]

in my time with Cummins, that was just before I tookl up boatbuilding , we had a V903 on the chassis dyno and a 8v71, abt same rating, the 903(14plus l, used half the fuel of the detroits lugged right back to 30mph the 903 was an ok engine in boats, we used to detune for mines, emissions regs finally knocked that one out of production, they were not much cop with jakes either, camshaft issuesFunny how Cummins stuck with bored inh block for small engines up to 6l, but the 3.9 and 5.9 have given excellent service in mains and genset capacity, nice to talk engines
for my smaller boats I choose jd, very proven also wet liners

[eponodyne]

Personally I'd go with the Cummins, but much depends on specifically who the dealer/supplier is.
Its little brother, the DT series, is also a really good mill. We use those on iland river harbor and fleeting tugs and never ever ever have a lick of trouble with them. Regular oil and filter changes is all they ever need.

[FAST FRED]

yes this is what i meant, but oh God those Komatzus they had cast iron pistons!!!

Most cruising boats will have engines with a high power rating (From the Add dept) and then cruise at the lowest RPM and fuel burn they can do.

The usual cruising speed is low the really high power output engines can suffer wet stacking and loads of other maladies.Including a short service life.

The construction or farm equipment marinizations usually work best at these reduced power levels, hence the use of a Komatzu or on smaller boats the Ford tractor engines.

Cast pistons , esp with square cut , rather than trapozidal rings , will do best at 30%- 60% power cruising that could kill a super turboed high power engine.

FF

[apex1]

Its little brother, the DT series, is also a really good mill. We use those on iland river harbor and fleeting tugs and never ever ever have a lick of trouble with them. Regular oil and filter changes is all they ever need.

:cool: thanks epo.. to back TAD´s recommendation wich I take seriously anyway. :cool:
But I asked for a substitution of a 23 ltr. displ. engine w 550hp cont. @ 1500rpm:D
I easily can get these horses out of less than half the metal still cont. rated!
The Lugger I started with was designated to propel a 1.5 meter dia CPP, 2 Alternators a hydr. PTO, 2 ac compressors without notice, and still being able to push the 90´ metal trough uphill at sufficient speed.:p
I know that I don´t need that power in 99% of the time cruising, half of it is more than sufficient. But....Butt.....:rolleyes:
I like the peace in mind, that my precious butt is brought home safe.

@ F F ..... I subscribe to that!

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

20+ years of living with all three....GM, Cat, and Cummins on towboats. That's wide open all day and all night. First choice was always Jimmies, they run forever no worries, and the power was there right now!...but lots of noise, oil everywhere, and they gobbled the fuel. Cummins is quieter, cleaner, just as reliable, and stingy with the fuel. Cat is for those with money to throw around...as many failures as successes. Some great engines, 343 for instance, but also some real problem children. Just my experience, YMMV.

Did I read between the lines that the CAT C18 might be one of the kid´s?:rolleyes:
So is the MTU / DD S60 !? ...... or what can it mean that there are so many postings about the S60 here:
http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/diesel_talk/

BTW.. as mentioned above I got a quotation for the CAT C18 @ 83.000 USD Bobtail... do you have an idea if the Cummins KTA19 is in the same ballpark?
Regards
Richard

[apex1]

It seems to me that I completely missed the recent IMO regulations ! ?
Who is able and willing to point out the affects on YACHTS in comparison with FISHBOATs ?
The reason for this silly question? I get my boat registered as a commercial fishboat with ease. So possibly circumnavigate some cliffs and stay with the original design.
Thanks
Richard

[Tad]

Did I read between the lines that the CAT C18 might be one of the kid´s?
So is the MTU / DD S60 !? ...... or what can it mean that there are so many postings about the S60 here:

I got a quotation for the CAT C18 @ 83.000 USD Bobtail... do you have an idea if the Cummins KTA19 is in the same ballpark?


In this country (NA) right now Cat is giving engines & equipment away to get them out the door. I have no experience with the newest Cat's, I do know some Lobster fishermen in Maine have replaced them after few hours. The same guys loved the Lugger's.

The 60 series MTU is far smaller than the others we are talking of. Again I'd get serious about the Cummins KTA19 and the Mitsubishi S6R. Prices delivered in Turkey will vary with exchange rates, I would talk with the respective dealers asap.

Little story....
A local (BC Canada) towing company has recently built two new tugs for towing logs (saltwater). The first was delivered last winter (Feb08) and is 45' by 20', draws 10'6" (48grt) and is powered with twin Cummins KTA19 (500hp @1800) with TD 5222 gear turning 62" by 52" four blade wheels in nozzles. The second boat is slightly larger and was delivered around Christmas of 08. She is 53'6" by 24'4", draws 12' and carries 10,000 imp gallons of fuel. She is powered with the Mitsubishi S6R's, (500Hp @1350) with the same TD gears turning 68" by 67" three blade wheels in nozzles. Estimated bollard pull is 41,000 pounds vs the earlier boat's 39,000 pounds. Consensus is that the Mitsubishi's produce slightly more power and cost less to purchase at this time. Otherwise the two are pretty equal, only time will tell....

[apex1]

In this country (NA) right now Cat is giving engines & equipment away to get them out the door. I have no experience with the newest Cat's, I do know some Lobster fishermen in Maine have replaced them after few hours. The same guys loved the Lugger's.

The 60 series MTU is far smaller than the others we are talking of. Again I'd get serious about the Cummins KTA19 and the Mitsubishi S6R. Prices delivered in Turkey will vary with exchange rates, I would talk with the respective dealers asap.
l....

Thank you TAD
we pay almost the same prices here than in the US exc. Transport. There is no Import tax on such equipment and pricing here is in € or $ anyway.
What about are the KTA 19 and the S6R in USD there? Playing with the local dealers means my grandchildren enjoy the boat! I still have only children.
Regards
Richard

[peter radclyffe]

It is a pity, six weeks ago I asked Lugger for a quotation and time of delivery for their 6170A Diesel and got this:


Dear Mr. R........,
please apologize for any delay in responding you, as far what I can see this is your first request which come to my attention.

As today we do have serious problem to meet our requirements as all our older models aren't in compliance with the new emission rules.

These engine will be replaced with a new model with a common rail fuel system but they availability is not known.

For now we do have the first model 11 liters called M 6125 which may meet your requirement. This engine should be available next next summer.

I will follow up with some details asap

Thank you for your kind interest.



NORTHERN LIGHTS
Mediterranean - Middle East Factory Representative
Massimo Mastrorosato: Via Gacci 4/6 - 59021 VAIANO - PO - ITALY
Tel. + 39 0574 985347 Fax + 39 0574 985286

I loved this beefy 23Ltr. set at 550hp @ 1500rpm, as the fishermen in Alaska did, for his incredible torque and reliability.
It was designated to propel via CPP a 90´ long range "Passagemaker" to be built this year in Turkey.
:?: How to substitute such Engine :?:
Is the CAT C18 the only option, or have I missed some???
Anyone out here with a valuable idea?
Regards
Richard KEIVIN

[peter radclyffe]

It is a pity, six weeks ago I asked Lugger for a quotation and time of delivery for their 6170A Diesel and got this:


Dear Mr. R........,
please apologize for any delay in responding you, as far what I can see this is your first request which come to my attention.

As today we do have serious problem to meet our requirements as all our older models aren't in compliance with the new emission rules.

These engine will be replaced with a new model with a common rail fuel system but they availability is not known.

For now we do have the first model 11 liters called M 6125 which may meet your requirement. This engine should be available next next summer.

I will follow up with some details asap

Thank you for your kind interest.



NORTHERN LIGHTS
Mediterranean - Middle East Factory Representative
Massimo Mastrorosato: Via Gacci 4/6 - 59021 VAIANO - PO - ITALY
Tel. + 39 0574 985347 Fax + 39 0574 985286

I loved this beefy 23Ltr. set at 550hp @ 1500rpm, as the fishermen in Alaska did, for his incredible torque and reliability.
It was designated to propel via CPP a 90´ long range "Passagemaker" to be built this year in Turkey.
:?: How to substitute such Engine :?:
Is the CAT C18 the only option, or have I missed some???
Anyone out here with a valuable idea?
Regards
Richard KELVIN

[apex1]

Thanks Peter,
the Kelvin are well known in the commercial fleet, but too beefy for me. I´ll go for the KTM 19, and that is called overkill already by my yard.
Regards
Richard

[peter radclyffe]

[QUOTE=Tad;247893]In this country (NA) right now Cat is giving engines & equipment away to get them out the door. I have no experience with the newest Cat's, I do know some Lobster fishermen in Maine have replaced them after few hours. The same guys loved the Lugger's.

The 60 series MTU is far smaller than the others we are talking of. Again I'd get serious about the Cummins KTA19 and the Mitsubishi S6R. Prices delivered in Turkey will vary with exchange rates, I would talk with the respective dealers asap.

Little story....
A local (BC Canada) towing company has recently built two new tugs for towing logs (saltwater). The first was delivered last winter (Feb08) and is 45' by 20', draws 10'6" (48grt) and is powered with twin Cummins KTA19 (500hp @1800) with TD 5222 gear turning 62" by 52" four blade wheels in nozzles. The second boat is slightly larger and was delivered around Christmas of 08. She is 53'6" by 24'4", draws 12' and carries 10,000 imp gallons of fuel. She is powered with the Mitsubishi S6R's, (500Hp @1350) with the same TD gears turning 68" by 67" three blade wheels in nozzles. Estimated bollard pull is 41,000 pounds vs the earlier boat's 39,000 pounds. Consensus is that the Mitsubishi's produce slightly more power and cost less to purchase at this time. Otherwise the two are pretty equal, only time will tell....[/QUOTE why do they replace the cats?

[Tad]

see http://www.sportfishermen.com/board/f17/caterpillar-3196-c12-lawsuit-update-december-08-a-60941.html

[peter radclyffe]

thanks Tad, i was unaware of all this, in europe cats have replaced a lot of gardners, kelvins, etc because their earth moving suppliers are so numerous,

[apex1]

Peter
the CAT reputation in the European marine community had nothing to do with other activities of the company. The engines were cheap, reliable and easy to service worldwide. The 3608 for example was a good engine too (all 36xx).
Regards
Richard

[powerabout]

36** thats a monster

[apex1]

36** thats a monster

Not really, did you notice what I was looking for?
and btw. I have found the engine and can get it certified!
Regards
Richard