Phildave
01-07-2009, 07:41 AM
Have chance to buy 35 foot Simpson Woodsong with 2 30hp Mariner 2 stroke. Good choice. Any advice?
View Full Version : better choice 2 stroke or 4 stroke?
Frosty
01-07-2009, 08:16 AM
Where does the 4 stroke bit come in?
CDK
01-07-2009, 01:39 PM
Maybe 2 times 2 stroke = 4 stroke(s)?
StianM
01-07-2009, 02:56 PM
If the boat is a good buy take it.
Dos it really mater what engines is on it?
If I was to buy new engines I would go for Evinrude two strokes.
They comply with all new regulations and two strokes has few moving parts compared to a four stroke and weigh a few kg less.
Dos it really mater what engines is on it?
If I was to buy new engines I would go for Evinrude two strokes.
They comply with all new regulations and two strokes has few moving parts compared to a four stroke and weigh a few kg less.
messabout
01-28-2009, 05:05 PM
A 35 foot boat with total 70 HP. Not enough power if it is a planing boat. Unecessary excess of power if it is a strictly displacement type. If displacement type then big slow turning props are generally the best option. That means that lower unit gear ratio needs some thought. For economy, the 4 stroke is a better option. Two stroke engines are signifigantly lighter in weight than the 4 stroke counterparts. Either type is reliable enough if maintained satisfactorily.
sandhammaren05
05-07-2009, 05:20 AM
2 stroke motors are much lighter and smaller, and accelerate about twice as fast as a 4 stroke. I personally wouldn't own a 4 stroke, they came into existence only to meet environmental rules, but the new Evinrude direct injected 2 strokes are cleaner and better. The Mariner 30 is probably a Yamaha, a very good motor. But as stated below, with only 60 hp you're way underpowered. I'd take a 250 (or, if you want insurance in case a motor goes south far from shore, a pair of 150s).
Have chance to buy 35 foot Simpson Woodsong with 2 30hp Mariner 2 stroke. Good choice. Any advice?
Have chance to buy 35 foot Simpson Woodsong with 2 30hp Mariner 2 stroke. Good choice. Any advice?
mwatts
08-21-2009, 09:17 AM
2 stroke motors are much lighter and smaller, and accelerate about twice as fast as a 4 stroke. I personally wouldn't own a 4 stroke, they came into existence only to meet environmental rules.
There's a few strong statements for ya.
In the first place, the time that 2 strokes where twice as fast to accelerate, is really quite a few years behind us. In fact a 50hp 2-stroke has never been twice as fast as a 50hp 4-stroke.
As far as size is concerned: the powerhead is usually just as fat, maybe at the most 10% lower in most cases (depends a bit on the brand).
2 strokes usually ARE lighter, you are right about that. Sometimes 30%.
Another big reason for people to by 4-strokes, is fuel economy. Here in the Netherlands, we can't believe the complaints US citizens are making about fuel prices! If you are feeling sorry for yourselves because you have to pay US $2,51 for a gallon of fuel, come over here where you can pay US $ 7,59 a gallon ;)
There's a few strong statements for ya.
In the first place, the time that 2 strokes where twice as fast to accelerate, is really quite a few years behind us. In fact a 50hp 2-stroke has never been twice as fast as a 50hp 4-stroke.
As far as size is concerned: the powerhead is usually just as fat, maybe at the most 10% lower in most cases (depends a bit on the brand).
2 strokes usually ARE lighter, you are right about that. Sometimes 30%.
Another big reason for people to by 4-strokes, is fuel economy. Here in the Netherlands, we can't believe the complaints US citizens are making about fuel prices! If you are feeling sorry for yourselves because you have to pay US $2,51 for a gallon of fuel, come over here where you can pay US $ 7,59 a gallon ;)
sandhammaren05
08-22-2009, 09:37 AM
Check out the APBA speed records for the 1970-1980 era Classes SD and DP, now defunct, and show me a 4 stroke 50 that will run like that. I live mainly in Austria and rebuild 1980s era 2 stroke OMCs for personal use and resale on the Baltic Coast, in case you want a good motor instead of an overweight piece of lumbering 4 stroke pot metal. We offer 15s, 25s and 35s for sale.
Yellowjacket
08-22-2009, 10:57 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of 2 strokes and probably wouldn't consider a 4 stroke engine for anything I want to do with an outboard...
But.. 2 Strokes have on Achilles heel and that is scorching and lack of lubrication near the exhaust port. This can eventually result in ring failure and/or bore scuffing in this area and it is, generally speaking the life limiting part of a two stroke if you run it real hard.
If you don't run them really hard they will last forever, but if you take advantage of that higher power to weight ratio there is a good chance that they won't last as long as a four stroke. I can't tell you the number of 2 strokes that I've seen with bore scuffing near the exhaust port and stuck rings.... Yes there are fewer parts and less to go wrong, but you don't buy a 2 stroke for long life, you buy it for performance.
My experiece is old, but my father in law had to rebuild the power head of his 200 hp Johnson a few years ago for just this reason, so it would appear that some things never change. Maybe newer generation lubricants and newer materials can address this issue, so if I am wrong here somebody enlighten me.
But.. 2 Strokes have on Achilles heel and that is scorching and lack of lubrication near the exhaust port. This can eventually result in ring failure and/or bore scuffing in this area and it is, generally speaking the life limiting part of a two stroke if you run it real hard.
If you don't run them really hard they will last forever, but if you take advantage of that higher power to weight ratio there is a good chance that they won't last as long as a four stroke. I can't tell you the number of 2 strokes that I've seen with bore scuffing near the exhaust port and stuck rings.... Yes there are fewer parts and less to go wrong, but you don't buy a 2 stroke for long life, you buy it for performance.
My experiece is old, but my father in law had to rebuild the power head of his 200 hp Johnson a few years ago for just this reason, so it would appear that some things never change. Maybe newer generation lubricants and newer materials can address this issue, so if I am wrong here somebody enlighten me.
powerabout
08-23-2009, 01:13 AM
Was that a cross flow or looper 200?
Yellowjacket
08-23-2009, 10:40 AM
Not sure, it was older, 1995 vintage...
ondarvr
08-24-2009, 12:33 PM
Stuck rings and scored cylinders are not a design flaw, its a sign of poor maintenance, setup, or possibly another type of failure. Rarely do outboards wear out, they die from dirty carbs and/or a lack of cooling (neglect), plus the wrong prop.
Yellowjacket
08-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Frankly most outboard motors don't get used enough to wear out in any way shape or form. They see a couple of hours a week in most applications and in these cases are lucky to see a hundred hours a year. Unless you are running the heck out of your boat you aren't likey to ever wear one out.
But eventually everything wears out. What I am saying is that you will most likely see wear and carbon buildup in the rings of an outboard that has been consistently run hard. There is essentially no cooling in this area of the cylinder (as opposed to the rest of the cylinder that has a water jacket around it) so this is where you start to see coke buildup in the rings and after a while the hard carbon buildup wears the cylinder. Take apart any two stroke that has been run a lot and you will see carbon buildup in the rings and scuffing in the bore area around the exhaust port. That is where the wear out first, that's all.
The engines I'm talking about weren't modified in any way, they were run the way the factory delivered them, and near as I can tell were properly maintained. Like I said I'm a two stroke fan, and two strokes have a better power to weight ratio than a 4 stroke, but if you use all of it, it won't last as long, at least that has been my experience.
But eventually everything wears out. What I am saying is that you will most likely see wear and carbon buildup in the rings of an outboard that has been consistently run hard. There is essentially no cooling in this area of the cylinder (as opposed to the rest of the cylinder that has a water jacket around it) so this is where you start to see coke buildup in the rings and after a while the hard carbon buildup wears the cylinder. Take apart any two stroke that has been run a lot and you will see carbon buildup in the rings and scuffing in the bore area around the exhaust port. That is where the wear out first, that's all.
The engines I'm talking about weren't modified in any way, they were run the way the factory delivered them, and near as I can tell were properly maintained. Like I said I'm a two stroke fan, and two strokes have a better power to weight ratio than a 4 stroke, but if you use all of it, it won't last as long, at least that has been my experience.
ondarvr
08-24-2009, 09:27 PM
Running hard at a higher RPM can actually clean out some of the gunk, over propping and never using a decarb type product like is recommended leads to coking and stuck rings. I've raced 2 strokes for the last 40 years and these problems exist in poorly setup engines. If there's a problem this is where it shows up first, its not something that happens on its own and creates other issues.
I'm not a fan or hater of either type and only own 2 strokes, but my next purchase may be a 4-S.
I'm not a fan or hater of either type and only own 2 strokes, but my next purchase may be a 4-S.
mwatts
08-25-2009, 05:06 AM
Check out the APBA speed records for the 1970-1980 era Classes SD and DP, now defunct, and show me a 4 stroke 50 that will run like that. I live mainly in Austria and rebuild 1980s era 2 stroke OMCs for personal use and resale on the Baltic Coast, in case you want a good motor instead of an overweight piece of lumbering 4 stroke pot metal. We offer 15s, 25s and 35s for sale.
Actually, I owned a 1991 Johnson 50HP 2S for quite some time. It is still running (a close friend owns it now) and it's a fast and powerful engine; pulls 2 wakeboarders or a mono skier with 3 people in the boat without any problem. And it ran on virtualy anything, as long as it was more than 60 octane. :) It not being so "delicate" can be a welcome thing in some area's.
But 4 strokes have come a long way since then, as far as power / weight ratio is concerned.
If I would have to choose now, I would choose a 4S, simply because I don't sail at WOT ever anymore. If you never open the throttle further than 2/3 anyway, 4S is a smarter choice.
Actually, I owned a 1991 Johnson 50HP 2S for quite some time. It is still running (a close friend owns it now) and it's a fast and powerful engine; pulls 2 wakeboarders or a mono skier with 3 people in the boat without any problem. And it ran on virtualy anything, as long as it was more than 60 octane. :) It not being so "delicate" can be a welcome thing in some area's.
But 4 strokes have come a long way since then, as far as power / weight ratio is concerned.
If I would have to choose now, I would choose a 4S, simply because I don't sail at WOT ever anymore. If you never open the throttle further than 2/3 anyway, 4S is a smarter choice.
Wynand N
08-25-2009, 07:49 AM
Luckily we do not have the emission control issues that are law in many countries, iow, we can still enjoy our two strokes.
I have the local Tohatsu outboard agency and most engines sold are two strokes. Today's two stroke do not smoke (not at all in cases) as the older stinkpots and also run quite silently. The new Tohatsu TDLI's are quite a gas and comply to all international emission standards and will run the pants off any equivalent sized four stroke.
Four strokes are expensive to keep. You have oil changes, filters and cam belts to look after and usually when something goes wrong on them, its mayor and expensive. My little backup 2S engine is usually tucked into a hole in the boat with no fear of oil spilling out, and or fouling the valves by doing so. And as said, they are not only more complicated but also heavier.
The new generation two strokes such as the Tohatsu TDLI's, are just as quite as four strokes and basically uses the same amount of fuel.
Here are some figures on the fuel consumption quoted by Tohatsu.
Two stroke 30hp - 13.0 l/h (3.4 g/h) at WOT (conventional 2S motor)
Four Stroke 30hp - 10.4 l/h (2.8 g/h) at WOT
Two stroke TDLI 40hp - 15.2 l/h (4 g/h) at WOT (latest technology)
Not much between them all although the TDLi is a 40hp. But one has to look at the bigger picture. The purchase price of a 4S can easily be about 30% more than conventional 2S. Add to that the service charges as they are much more expensive to maintain and compare running costs over 5 years ownership and one will find that 2S motors are actually cheaper to run than their 4S cousins. And they are more responsive and faster out of the hole when needed.
My 2 cent worth
I have the local Tohatsu outboard agency and most engines sold are two strokes. Today's two stroke do not smoke (not at all in cases) as the older stinkpots and also run quite silently. The new Tohatsu TDLI's are quite a gas and comply to all international emission standards and will run the pants off any equivalent sized four stroke.
Four strokes are expensive to keep. You have oil changes, filters and cam belts to look after and usually when something goes wrong on them, its mayor and expensive. My little backup 2S engine is usually tucked into a hole in the boat with no fear of oil spilling out, and or fouling the valves by doing so. And as said, they are not only more complicated but also heavier.
The new generation two strokes such as the Tohatsu TDLI's, are just as quite as four strokes and basically uses the same amount of fuel.
Here are some figures on the fuel consumption quoted by Tohatsu.
Two stroke 30hp - 13.0 l/h (3.4 g/h) at WOT (conventional 2S motor)
Four Stroke 30hp - 10.4 l/h (2.8 g/h) at WOT
Two stroke TDLI 40hp - 15.2 l/h (4 g/h) at WOT (latest technology)
Not much between them all although the TDLi is a 40hp. But one has to look at the bigger picture. The purchase price of a 4S can easily be about 30% more than conventional 2S. Add to that the service charges as they are much more expensive to maintain and compare running costs over 5 years ownership and one will find that 2S motors are actually cheaper to run than their 4S cousins. And they are more responsive and faster out of the hole when needed.
My 2 cent worth
mwatts
08-25-2009, 08:17 AM
It's not quite fair stating oil changes as one of the maintenance costs for 4 strokes, while completely ignoring the fact that the oil that is mixed into the fuel of 2 strokes add's about 10% on top of the fuel price.
As we say in Holland: that's comparing appels and pears. ;)
Besides that, the difference in fuel consumption between 2S and 4S is the smallest at WOT. At 50% throttle, the differences will be bigger. And engine's aren't run at WOT all the time in real life, so comparing WOT consumption, is biassing the 2S.
I'm not saying 4 strokes are always better. Like I said, I owned a 2S for ages, on a small ski boat, where it excelled. But for quiet cruising in a small displacement boat, a 2S does not even come into my consideration.
As we say in Holland: that's comparing appels and pears. ;)
Besides that, the difference in fuel consumption between 2S and 4S is the smallest at WOT. At 50% throttle, the differences will be bigger. And engine's aren't run at WOT all the time in real life, so comparing WOT consumption, is biassing the 2S.
I'm not saying 4 strokes are always better. Like I said, I owned a 2S for ages, on a small ski boat, where it excelled. But for quiet cruising in a small displacement boat, a 2S does not even come into my consideration.
sandhammaren05
08-25-2009, 01:52 PM
Loopers must be rebuilt more often than cross flow but are far more efficient, less fuel lost through exhaust. I rebuilt my racing powerheads (loopers) once/season but would have been able to run one for years with ordinary use. If you want top performance then there's a price. Oars, e.g., can last for a lifetime ... .
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of 2 strokes and probably wouldn't consider a 4 stroke engine for anything I want to do with an outboard...
But.. 2 Strokes have on Achilles heel and that is scorching and lack of lubrication near the exhaust port. This can eventually result in ring failure and/or bore scuffing in this area and it is, generally speaking the life limiting part of a two stroke if you run it real hard.
If you don't run them really hard they will last forever, but if you take advantage of that higher power to weight ratio there is a good chance that they won't last as long as a four stroke. I can't tell you the number of 2 strokes that I've seen with bore scuffing near the exhaust port and stuck rings.... Yes there are fewer parts and less to go wrong, but you don't buy a 2 stroke for long life, you buy it for performance.
My experiece is old, but my father in law had to rebuild the power head of his 200 hp Johnson a few years ago for just this reason, so it would appear that some things never change. Maybe newer generation lubricants and newer materials can address this issue, so if I am wrong here somebody enlighten me.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of 2 strokes and probably wouldn't consider a 4 stroke engine for anything I want to do with an outboard...
But.. 2 Strokes have on Achilles heel and that is scorching and lack of lubrication near the exhaust port. This can eventually result in ring failure and/or bore scuffing in this area and it is, generally speaking the life limiting part of a two stroke if you run it real hard.
If you don't run them really hard they will last forever, but if you take advantage of that higher power to weight ratio there is a good chance that they won't last as long as a four stroke. I can't tell you the number of 2 strokes that I've seen with bore scuffing near the exhaust port and stuck rings.... Yes there are fewer parts and less to go wrong, but you don't buy a 2 stroke for long life, you buy it for performance.
My experiece is old, but my father in law had to rebuild the power head of his 200 hp Johnson a few years ago for just this reason, so it would appear that some things never change. Maybe newer generation lubricants and newer materials can address this issue, so if I am wrong here somebody enlighten me.
powerabout
08-25-2009, 02:14 PM
dont forget the pollution your waste oil and filter makes from your 4stroke not to mention all the extra pollution in trying to make the thing with a gazillion more parts and if it goes wrong will probably be a throw away due to the cost like everything else Japanese.
Easy Rider
12-12-2009, 08:34 PM
If I was to run an E tech or TDLI 2 stroke and my pal was to run a Honda or Yamaha 4 stroke under typical conditions which (2S-4S) would require the most lube oil to operate? Me or my pal?
Easy Rider
Easy Rider
mwatts
12-13-2009, 01:28 PM
Well, that's not possible to answer properly without a lot of assumptions:
This is not a retorious question. ;)
You and your pall both have a 50 hp engine.
You live up to your name and you are a true "Easy Rider". Your fuel consumption equals 10 ltrs / hour.
Your 2S fuel is mixed 1:50.
You opperate your boat 100 hours a year.
You service your engine once a year.
At the end of the year, you have used up 100 x 10 = 1000 ltrs of fuel. That means 1000 / 50 = 20 ltrs of 2S lube oil.
Your pal with the 4S will have had one oil change, which varies on the size of the engine and the make / model. But let's say just over 2 ltr for a 50hp. So that's 10% of your oil consumption.
I don't know what oil costs, but over here that would round up to about EUR 180,- in savings. Of course then there is the fuel economy, which for an Easy Rider could easily be around 30 - 40%.
The 4S will be more expensive to service they say (no valves, etc.), maybe that's true. The 2S will have been cheaper, but that's only until it wears out it's pistons, and the price of 2 or three of those for a 50HP, even aftermarket, will hurt.
This is not a retorious question. ;)
You and your pall both have a 50 hp engine.
You live up to your name and you are a true "Easy Rider". Your fuel consumption equals 10 ltrs / hour.
Your 2S fuel is mixed 1:50.
You opperate your boat 100 hours a year.
You service your engine once a year.
At the end of the year, you have used up 100 x 10 = 1000 ltrs of fuel. That means 1000 / 50 = 20 ltrs of 2S lube oil.
Your pal with the 4S will have had one oil change, which varies on the size of the engine and the make / model. But let's say just over 2 ltr for a 50hp. So that's 10% of your oil consumption.
I don't know what oil costs, but over here that would round up to about EUR 180,- in savings. Of course then there is the fuel economy, which for an Easy Rider could easily be around 30 - 40%.
The 4S will be more expensive to service they say (no valves, etc.), maybe that's true. The 2S will have been cheaper, but that's only until it wears out it's pistons, and the price of 2 or three of those for a 50HP, even aftermarket, will hurt.
Easy Rider
12-13-2009, 03:57 PM
Two huge flaws in your post
1 One should have 2 or 3 oil changes in a season. My Suzuki DF60 4 stroke specs lube oil change every 6 months or 100 hrs. With a 5 US quart capacity that would be 2.5 gallons per year. But since they try to minimize the maint schedule as a sales feature I'd say 3 changes per year are a good idea.
2 You are using Max oil consumption for the 2 stroke and they only use a fraction of that. In full throttle operation on an injected 2 stroke the oil ratio is somewhere between 20-1 and 50-1. At cruise throttle it's probably around 80-1 and at idle perhaps 150-1 to 200-1. If you had an underpowered boat it would be higher and w an over powered boat and a light load much lower.
Easy Rider was the name of the only boat I have designed and built.
Easy Rider
1 One should have 2 or 3 oil changes in a season. My Suzuki DF60 4 stroke specs lube oil change every 6 months or 100 hrs. With a 5 US quart capacity that would be 2.5 gallons per year. But since they try to minimize the maint schedule as a sales feature I'd say 3 changes per year are a good idea.
2 You are using Max oil consumption for the 2 stroke and they only use a fraction of that. In full throttle operation on an injected 2 stroke the oil ratio is somewhere between 20-1 and 50-1. At cruise throttle it's probably around 80-1 and at idle perhaps 150-1 to 200-1. If you had an underpowered boat it would be higher and w an over powered boat and a light load much lower.
Easy Rider was the name of the only boat I have designed and built.
Easy Rider
Fanie
12-13-2009, 04:41 PM
Two strokes are lighter in weight and more responsive. Depending on the app. If you have a boat that does not require performance like a house boat I'd consider a 4 stroke. If you have a boat that you want fast and furious then go for the 2 stroke.
The new two strokes are much better on fuel than the older ones. I had a 115 which was heavier on fuel than the newer 200's. They also don't smoke like the old ones do.
Personally I like the 2 strokes. They never die.
The new two strokes are much better on fuel than the older ones. I had a 115 which was heavier on fuel than the newer 200's. They also don't smoke like the old ones do.
Personally I like the 2 strokes. They never die.
ondarvr
12-13-2009, 06:30 PM
[qoute]
2 You are using Max oil consumption for the 2 stroke and they only use a fraction of that. In full throttle operation on an injected 2 stroke the oil ratio is somewhere between 20-1 and 50-1.
I have never seen a stock oil injected two stroke us a ratio richer than 50-1.
2 You are using Max oil consumption for the 2 stroke and they only use a fraction of that. In full throttle operation on an injected 2 stroke the oil ratio is somewhere between 20-1 and 50-1.
I have never seen a stock oil injected two stroke us a ratio richer than 50-1.
Easy Rider
12-13-2009, 07:09 PM
May have been thinking of motorcycles. They have a much more sophistaced oil injection system as they have high rpm low load conditions. Outboards have (I believe) throttle position or engine speed function only while in motorcycle injection systems several variables control the amount of oil injected. I know some motorcycle injection systems at WOT and 7000rpm or more will inject at a 20-1 level. Some motorcycles inject oil at several locations also. Outboards are much simpler. Sea water cooled outboards run so cool more oil than 50-1 is not needed so since I'm not knowing all the specs and details I said 20-1 just to be safe. Should have said about 50-1.
Another point. With 4 strokes many (possibly most) don't keep track of their maintenance schedule or just don't bother to change oil when needed. Two strokes always feed clean oil where it's needed.
Another point. With 4 strokes many (possibly most) don't keep track of their maintenance schedule or just don't bother to change oil when needed. Two strokes always feed clean oil where it's needed.
Frosty
12-14-2009, 06:16 AM
Several variables for motorcycle oil injection???
You mean a cable splitter? one cable goes to the carb and the other goes to the oil injector.
Plus you argument has one massive flaw, your 2 stroke oil ends up being spit out the back into the air we breath for us all to enjoy. Or worse ends up spit out under water---nice.
The 4 stroke keeps mostly all of it where it can be changed and disposed of.
You mean a cable splitter? one cable goes to the carb and the other goes to the oil injector.
Plus you argument has one massive flaw, your 2 stroke oil ends up being spit out the back into the air we breath for us all to enjoy. Or worse ends up spit out under water---nice.
The 4 stroke keeps mostly all of it where it can be changed and disposed of.
Fanie
12-14-2009, 06:28 AM
The 4 stroke still emmits it's poisenous exhaust gasses through the prop and in the water to muffle the sound. I doubt there is a big difference. The new 2 stroke engines runs at 100:1, which makes it much less oily.
Never the less, we need a motor without any poisenous gass or anything else emissions
Never the less, we need a motor without any poisenous gass or anything else emissions
Frosty
12-14-2009, 06:34 AM
Thats right Fannie but the 2 stroke oil system is a total loss system.
--ALL-- of its oil after one time lubrication is dumped in the exhaust.
As you know!!
Now if some one could design a kind of separator in the exhaust and circulate it back to the tank, or even a holding tank for disposal !!!!!!!!.
--ALL-- of its oil after one time lubrication is dumped in the exhaust.
As you know!!
Now if some one could design a kind of separator in the exhaust and circulate it back to the tank, or even a holding tank for disposal !!!!!!!!.
CDK
12-14-2009, 07:42 AM
I would give my 4 stroke engine just one oil change at the end of the season if I used it a lot and the color of the oil urges me to change it. If it looks healthy, I would just change the filter. Modern synthetic oil maintains its properties for years and 100's of service hours. A head of research from Shell told on Dutch TV after his retirement that there is no need to change oil at all, just the filter. It caused a lot of commotion at the time and his former employer somehow succeeded to keep him from repeating his statement.
If my college or friend would use a 2-stroke engine I would threaten to throw my used oil overboard in his presence and explain to him that is what he is doing every time he uses his boat.
If my college or friend would use a 2-stroke engine I would threaten to throw my used oil overboard in his presence and explain to him that is what he is doing every time he uses his boat.
mwatts
12-14-2009, 09:53 AM
Two huge flaws in your post
1 One should have 2 or 3 oil changes in a season. My Suzuki DF60 4 stroke specs lube oil change every 6 months or 100 hrs. With a 5 US quart capacity that would be 2.5 gallons per year. But since they try to minimize the maint schedule as a sales feature I'd say 3 changes per year are a good idea.
2 You are using Max oil consumption for the 2 stroke and they only use a fraction of that. In full throttle operation on an injected 2 stroke the oil ratio is somewhere between 20-1 and 50-1. At cruise throttle it's probably around 80-1 and at idle perhaps 150-1 to 200-1. If you had an underpowered boat it would be higher and w an over powered boat and a light load much lower.
Easy Rider was the name of the only boat I have designed and built.
Easy Rider,
I was using 50HP engines in my comparison. There's no 50HP with a 5 US quart capacity. 2.1 - 2.5 is normal. Also, where I live, the season is from early june till mid-september. No-one changes the oil halfway the season (unless there has been a mechanical problem and it has been contaminated with water). So estimating something around 2 ltrs is fair in this comparison.
Fair enough. Let's assume it's 1:100. Still 5 times the oil consumption of a 4S.
1 One should have 2 or 3 oil changes in a season. My Suzuki DF60 4 stroke specs lube oil change every 6 months or 100 hrs. With a 5 US quart capacity that would be 2.5 gallons per year. But since they try to minimize the maint schedule as a sales feature I'd say 3 changes per year are a good idea.
2 You are using Max oil consumption for the 2 stroke and they only use a fraction of that. In full throttle operation on an injected 2 stroke the oil ratio is somewhere between 20-1 and 50-1. At cruise throttle it's probably around 80-1 and at idle perhaps 150-1 to 200-1. If you had an underpowered boat it would be higher and w an over powered boat and a light load much lower.
Easy Rider was the name of the only boat I have designed and built.
Easy Rider,
I was using 50HP engines in my comparison. There's no 50HP with a 5 US quart capacity. 2.1 - 2.5 is normal. Also, where I live, the season is from early june till mid-september. No-one changes the oil halfway the season (unless there has been a mechanical problem and it has been contaminated with water). So estimating something around 2 ltrs is fair in this comparison.
Fair enough. Let's assume it's 1:100. Still 5 times the oil consumption of a 4S.
Easy Rider
12-14-2009, 01:28 PM
mwatts,
I was using my 60hp Suzuki (w 4.8 quarts cap) as an example .. sorry. As for changing oil only once a season .. OK for .. not for me. Carbon collects in the oil of a gasoline engine as it's being run and is an excellent abrasive (much more so w a diesel) and the molecules get beat up badly so as to make them shorter thereby reducing their ability to keep metal away from metal. Corrosive elements form and "eat" metal. No thanks. After spending $6000 for my Suzuki I'm going to give it every chance I can. After break-in my E-tech is supposed to go to the dealer to get adjusted to 100-1. Mine will stay at 50-1. mwatts, I'm not on a bandwagon .. I think the 4 strokes over 29hp are wonderful . but I lead towards 2 strokes. And one can only criticize 4 strokes for their weight to a certian extent as they have largely been a replacement for IOs and I'm shure they are much heavier. . I do detest the little 4 stroke 1 cyl bangers.
Frosty,
They are alllll total loss systems. Two stroke just dumps it's oil more directly.
Easy Rider
I was using my 60hp Suzuki (w 4.8 quarts cap) as an example .. sorry. As for changing oil only once a season .. OK for .. not for me. Carbon collects in the oil of a gasoline engine as it's being run and is an excellent abrasive (much more so w a diesel) and the molecules get beat up badly so as to make them shorter thereby reducing their ability to keep metal away from metal. Corrosive elements form and "eat" metal. No thanks. After spending $6000 for my Suzuki I'm going to give it every chance I can. After break-in my E-tech is supposed to go to the dealer to get adjusted to 100-1. Mine will stay at 50-1. mwatts, I'm not on a bandwagon .. I think the 4 strokes over 29hp are wonderful . but I lead towards 2 strokes. And one can only criticize 4 strokes for their weight to a certian extent as they have largely been a replacement for IOs and I'm shure they are much heavier. . I do detest the little 4 stroke 1 cyl bangers.
Frosty,
They are alllll total loss systems. Two stroke just dumps it's oil more directly.
Easy Rider
mwatts
12-14-2009, 01:52 PM
I do detest the little 4 stroke 1 cyl bangers.
Hehe.. No-one can disagree with that. ;)
Hehe.. No-one can disagree with that. ;)
powerabout
12-17-2009, 01:02 PM
re the 2 strokes, 2s oil does burn so there is not necessarliy oil coming out of the exhaust, at least its bio degradable and 4s I dont think is..is it?
You could always use the old castor ( bean ) oil, Castrol R1, makes a mess in your engine but it sure smells good
You could always use the old castor ( bean ) oil, Castrol R1, makes a mess in your engine but it sure smells good
Frosty
12-17-2009, 10:09 PM
Cripes,-- my 2 stroke bike that goes shopping every day drips black oil from the exhaust. It got blocked last weeks and I srcaped of thick incredibly black gunge from the removable centre baffle.
2 stroke oil burns!!!! ,--- some of it may do.
And yes it is auto injection. I top up the tank once a year. I use about 1 liter per year.
Stand behind one with white trousers on,!!!
2 stroke oil burns!!!! ,--- some of it may do.
And yes it is auto injection. I top up the tank once a year. I use about 1 liter per year.
Stand behind one with white trousers on,!!!
ondarvr
12-18-2009, 12:11 AM
I raced, modified and tuned bikes for decades, if there's black stuff dripping from the pipe its either because you don't ride it hard enough, its jetted too rich, the oil injector isn't adjusted correctly, or a combination of these. A clogged baffle is a typical issue on a bike that's not ridden hard enough. You getting old? lol.
powerabout
12-18-2009, 05:32 AM
True enough Frosty
Imagine being in a East German traffic jam with a queue of Trabants!
Imagine being in a East German traffic jam with a queue of Trabants!
Frosty
12-18-2009, 10:01 PM
Its a city bike and its ridden whilst stood still most of the time, if you know what I mean.
Mine is no different than every one elses, except that my old Suzi Crystal can not be replaced, you can not buy 2 strokes any more from new.
But it does have an emission test every year for road tax.
Mine is no different than every one elses, except that my old Suzi Crystal can not be replaced, you can not buy 2 strokes any more from new.
But it does have an emission test every year for road tax.
sandhammaren05
01-11-2010, 04:13 PM
Why would it be wiser? Evinrude E-Tecs are more powerful and cleaner than 4 strokes.
Actually, I owned a 1991 Johnson 50HP 2S for quite some time. It is still running (a close friend owns it now) and it's a fast and powerful engine; pulls 2 wakeboarders or a mono skier with 3 people in the boat without any problem. And it ran on virtualy anything, as long as it was more than 60 octane. :) It not being so "delicate" can be a welcome thing in some area's.
But 4 strokes have come a long way since then, as far as power / weight ratio is concerned.
If I would have to choose now, I would choose a 4S, simply because I don't sail at WOT ever anymore. If you never open the throttle further than 2/3 anyway, 4S is a smarter choice.
Actually, I owned a 1991 Johnson 50HP 2S for quite some time. It is still running (a close friend owns it now) and it's a fast and powerful engine; pulls 2 wakeboarders or a mono skier with 3 people in the boat without any problem. And it ran on virtualy anything, as long as it was more than 60 octane. :) It not being so "delicate" can be a welcome thing in some area's.
But 4 strokes have come a long way since then, as far as power / weight ratio is concerned.
If I would have to choose now, I would choose a 4S, simply because I don't sail at WOT ever anymore. If you never open the throttle further than 2/3 anyway, 4S is a smarter choice.
jonr
01-12-2010, 03:28 PM
One you are up to speed, 50HP is 50HP and a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke will be equally fast (except for the slight weight difference).
sandhammaren05
01-12-2010, 04:22 PM
It's not just top speed, it's how long it takes to reach top speed. And, a 50 hp 4 stroke won't run with a pre-2000 2 stroke, won't turn the RPM. The E-Tecs would turn up if you could deprogram the rev-limiter. Someone did and won in Paris recently. Intake-burn-exhaust-intake-burn-exhaust - .... !
One you are up to speed, 50HP is 50HP and a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke will be equally fast (except for the slight weight difference).
One you are up to speed, 50HP is 50HP and a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke will be equally fast (except for the slight weight difference).
SunnySkies
01-17-2010, 06:20 PM
Something to be said for hitting the key and quiet running with no smoke. I would say it depends more on the application. Given the size of the boat I would bet this is a non planing hull. Merc Bigfoots or similar engines are better suited because of thier gear ratios. There isn't a lot of difference between modern DI two strokes and four strokes anymore. IMHO
sandhammaren05
01-18-2010, 03:31 AM
Something to be said for hitting the key and quiet running with no smoke. I would say it depends more on the application. Given the size of the boat I would bet this is a non planing hull. Merc Bigfoots or similar engines are better suited because of thier gear ratios. There isn't a lot of difference between modern DI two strokes and four strokes anymore. IMHO
Sounds boring, I love the fine odor of 2 stroke exhaust. I'm writing about high speed planning hulls, relatively little wetted surface. Whether on our 330 lb nutshell with our 1981 7.5 hp (16 mph) or 1981 15 hp (26 mph), on our 350 lb high speed V-bottom (1983 35 hp, 42 mph), or with 250-300 hp, the 2 stroke is faster with far greater acceleration. My brother in law has a Honda 50 on a displacement boat. Ho-hum. Also, the idea of a small outboard is portability. With our 7.5 (35 lb) and 15 (75 lb) on the Baltic island, we transport the motor lying on its side in a hand cart to and from the storage shed to the boat. With the 35 (110 lb), I can throw it in the trunk of the car. Can you do that with your 4 strokes? How much do the equivalent motors weigh, and does oil run out when laid on the side? Ever see the video of the Evinrude 250 pulling the Yamaha 250 backward and under water?!
Sounds boring, I love the fine odor of 2 stroke exhaust. I'm writing about high speed planning hulls, relatively little wetted surface. Whether on our 330 lb nutshell with our 1981 7.5 hp (16 mph) or 1981 15 hp (26 mph), on our 350 lb high speed V-bottom (1983 35 hp, 42 mph), or with 250-300 hp, the 2 stroke is faster with far greater acceleration. My brother in law has a Honda 50 on a displacement boat. Ho-hum. Also, the idea of a small outboard is portability. With our 7.5 (35 lb) and 15 (75 lb) on the Baltic island, we transport the motor lying on its side in a hand cart to and from the storage shed to the boat. With the 35 (110 lb), I can throw it in the trunk of the car. Can you do that with your 4 strokes? How much do the equivalent motors weigh, and does oil run out when laid on the side? Ever see the video of the Evinrude 250 pulling the Yamaha 250 backward and under water?!
Easy Rider
01-18-2010, 06:07 PM
Now thats outboarding Sandham. My old 2 stroke Johnson or newer 2 stroke Yamaha hardly ever smoke at all and I've never seen any smoke from my Evinrude E-tech. I saw a twin cyl 4 stroke the other day w the head off and I could see that the pistons rise and fall together. All the old british motorcycles (4 stroke) did that. The reciprocating mechanical mass is as a one cyl engine! No wonder they shake when you get em reved up a bit.
Sunny Skies, I bought the 2 stroke E-Tech after the 4 stroke Suzuki mostly to get simplicity. That Suzuki is a wonderful engine but very complicated.
Easy Rider
Sunny Skies, I bought the 2 stroke E-Tech after the 4 stroke Suzuki mostly to get simplicity. That Suzuki is a wonderful engine but very complicated.
Easy Rider
sandhammaren05
01-19-2010, 02:45 AM
Now thats outboarding Sandham. My old 2 stroke Johnson or newer 2 stroke Yamaha hardly ever smoke at all and I've never seen any smoke from my Evinrude E-tech. I saw a twin cyl 4 stroke the other day w the head off and I could see that the pistons rise and fall together. All the old british motorcycles (4 stroke) did that. The reciprocating mechanical mass is as a one cyl engine! No wonder they shake when you get em reved up a bit.
Sunny Skies, I bought the 2 stroke E-Tech after the 4 stroke Suzuki mostly to get simplicity. That Suzuki is a wonderful engine but very complicated.
Easy Rider
I don't mind 4 stroke in car and lawnmower but wished I'd had a 2 stroke Yamaha motorcycle back in 1981. For me, outboarding without 2 stroke isn't outboarding. Actually, the E-Tec is at the limit. It's 2 stroke, but with fuel and oil injection is otherwise very much like a 4 stroke. Except that oil doesn't run out in the trunk if you lay it on its side ... . The E-Tec is so clean that is't allowed on Bodensee in Germany. The new Evinrudes arrived at a friend's dealership in Houston last Aug. with the EU (European Union) environmental approval stamp on the downhousing.
I hate the propaganda that tries to outlaw 2 stroke motors (and I usually vote left/green).
Sunny Skies, I bought the 2 stroke E-Tech after the 4 stroke Suzuki mostly to get simplicity. That Suzuki is a wonderful engine but very complicated.
Easy Rider
I don't mind 4 stroke in car and lawnmower but wished I'd had a 2 stroke Yamaha motorcycle back in 1981. For me, outboarding without 2 stroke isn't outboarding. Actually, the E-Tec is at the limit. It's 2 stroke, but with fuel and oil injection is otherwise very much like a 4 stroke. Except that oil doesn't run out in the trunk if you lay it on its side ... . The E-Tec is so clean that is't allowed on Bodensee in Germany. The new Evinrudes arrived at a friend's dealership in Houston last Aug. with the EU (European Union) environmental approval stamp on the downhousing.
I hate the propaganda that tries to outlaw 2 stroke motors (and I usually vote left/green).
Wynand N
01-20-2010, 06:40 AM
I have an 85 hp Suzuki 2 stroke (mid 80's model) on the tail of my fishing boat and the only time I saw a bit smoke, is with start ups. As soon as she idles, no smoke - even accelerating hard or running like the wind there is not a puff of smoke to be seen...Although it is an auto lube, I also add 1:100 ratio 2s oil in fuel tanks just in case.
Funny thought, no "usual" two stroke smell coming from my motor either - the other day riding with my friend on his ride, the Yamaha of same hp fitted smelled like a real two stroke motor:confused:
Would I change for a 4 stroke? No
Funny thought, no "usual" two stroke smell coming from my motor either - the other day riding with my friend on his ride, the Yamaha of same hp fitted smelled like a real two stroke motor:confused:
Would I change for a 4 stroke? No
Fanie
01-20-2010, 06:59 AM
Hulle se jy spyker lekker as jy so terug in die spieel kyk en jy sien jou hol brand wit.
For the illiterates that does not understand Afrikaans, the above says the following :
There is nothing wrong with two stroke ! They offer best compact performance in a lighter setup and lives really really long. Simplicity makes them reliable and a very good choice any where. The new ones are light on fuel and as quiet as four stroke. Same as Wynand, they don't smoke that much either except a puff during cold start.
On any boat, my first choice.
For the illiterates that does not understand Afrikaans, the above says the following :
There is nothing wrong with two stroke ! They offer best compact performance in a lighter setup and lives really really long. Simplicity makes them reliable and a very good choice any where. The new ones are light on fuel and as quiet as four stroke. Same as Wynand, they don't smoke that much either except a puff during cold start.
On any boat, my first choice.
sandhammaren05
01-20-2010, 07:12 AM
I have an 85 hp Suzuki 2 stroke (mid 80's model) on the tail of my fishing boat and the only time I saw a bit smoke, is with start ups. As soon as she idles, no smoke - even accelerating hard or running like the wind there is not a puff of smoke to be seen...Although it is an auto lube, I also add 1:100 ratio 2s oil in fuel tanks just in case.
Funny thought, no "usual" two stroke smell coming from my motor either - the other day riding with my friend on his ride, the Yamaha of same hp fitted smelled like a real two stroke motor:confused:
Would I change for a 4 stroke? No
Can be several reasons for the differences in smoke (not likely idle adjustment since the carb jets are fixed). One is mixture, is he running 100:1? The other is wear, more fuel/oil will be lost if the rings are worn.
Funny thought, no "usual" two stroke smell coming from my motor either - the other day riding with my friend on his ride, the Yamaha of same hp fitted smelled like a real two stroke motor:confused:
Would I change for a 4 stroke? No
Can be several reasons for the differences in smoke (not likely idle adjustment since the carb jets are fixed). One is mixture, is he running 100:1? The other is wear, more fuel/oil will be lost if the rings are worn.
Frosty
01-20-2010, 09:34 AM
Hulle se jy spyker lekker as jy so terug in die spieel kyk en jy sien jou hol brand wit.
The few words above says all the words below,--Africarn is such an economical language. Approx 10:1:rolleyes:
There is nothing wrong with two stroke ! They offer best compact performance in a lighter setup and lives really really long. Simplicity makes them reliable and a very good choice any where. The new ones are light on fuel and as quiet as four stroke. Same as Wynand, they don't smoke that much either except a puff during cold start.
On any boat, my first choice.
:p :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool: :D :D
The few words above says all the words below,--Africarn is such an economical language. Approx 10:1:rolleyes:
There is nothing wrong with two stroke ! They offer best compact performance in a lighter setup and lives really really long. Simplicity makes them reliable and a very good choice any where. The new ones are light on fuel and as quiet as four stroke. Same as Wynand, they don't smoke that much either except a puff during cold start.
On any boat, my first choice.
:p :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool: :D :D
sandhammaren05
01-20-2010, 09:40 AM
:p :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool: :D :D
Although I've declared that I love the odor of 2 stroke exhaust (from childhood on), I must admit that our 1981 Evinrude 15 and 1983 Johnson 35 don't have much odor, nor do they foul the water unless I idle too long. The motors are set up with cold plugs for top speed, and I run 50% more oil that 50:1 ( because the 15 turns 6500 RPM, and because the spark is advanced to the limit on the 35), so that causes problems when idling for a long time. Standard plugs would cure the 'problem'. And, our 1981 Evinrude 7.5 is pretty clean, you can troll with it.
The reason that outboards ca. 1968 and later (Merc 500 in 1961!) are more powerful/c.i. and run cleaner than the older models is tuned exhaust. The megaphone sends a wave of lost charge back into the combustion chamber just before the piston shuts the exhaust port on the compression stroke. Even our 1981 7.5hp motor has tuned exhaust. In a 2-stroke without exhaust tuning (the only 1950s era outboard with tuned exhaust was the ca. 1958 Mercury Mark 20H with the 'toilet bowl' downhousing), a big charge of gas/oil is lost into the water on every exhaust stroke.
Although I've declared that I love the odor of 2 stroke exhaust (from childhood on), I must admit that our 1981 Evinrude 15 and 1983 Johnson 35 don't have much odor, nor do they foul the water unless I idle too long. The motors are set up with cold plugs for top speed, and I run 50% more oil that 50:1 ( because the 15 turns 6500 RPM, and because the spark is advanced to the limit on the 35), so that causes problems when idling for a long time. Standard plugs would cure the 'problem'. And, our 1981 Evinrude 7.5 is pretty clean, you can troll with it.
The reason that outboards ca. 1968 and later (Merc 500 in 1961!) are more powerful/c.i. and run cleaner than the older models is tuned exhaust. The megaphone sends a wave of lost charge back into the combustion chamber just before the piston shuts the exhaust port on the compression stroke. Even our 1981 7.5hp motor has tuned exhaust. In a 2-stroke without exhaust tuning (the only 1950s era outboard with tuned exhaust was the ca. 1958 Mercury Mark 20H with the 'toilet bowl' downhousing), a big charge of gas/oil is lost into the water on every exhaust stroke.
Fanie
01-20-2010, 09:43 AM
I made this comment because ot the smoke & engine stuff discussed.
Hulle se jy spyker lekker as jy so terug in die spieel kyk en jy sien jou hol brand wit.
Lemme translate for you Frosty.
They say you are having a good screw if you look back into the mirror and your arse is burning white.
Same as you would look at the way the bike is burning it's exhaust. That's how you know your Honda is a two stroke, the exhaust is dark charcoal.
If it was a four stroke it would be a grey reddish colour... that or your rings are shot :D
Hulle se jy spyker lekker as jy so terug in die spieel kyk en jy sien jou hol brand wit.
Lemme translate for you Frosty.
They say you are having a good screw if you look back into the mirror and your arse is burning white.
Same as you would look at the way the bike is burning it's exhaust. That's how you know your Honda is a two stroke, the exhaust is dark charcoal.
If it was a four stroke it would be a grey reddish colour... that or your rings are shot :D
Wynand N
01-20-2010, 10:52 AM
One is mixture, is he running 100:1?
Read my post again;)
The Suzuki is an auto lube (oil injection) unit, but just to be on the sure side, I also mix the tank with a 1:100 oil to fuel mixture in case the injection unit sort of malfunctions, or oil pipes starting to leak etc. to prevent sudden expenses..
Read my post again;)
The Suzuki is an auto lube (oil injection) unit, but just to be on the sure side, I also mix the tank with a 1:100 oil to fuel mixture in case the injection unit sort of malfunctions, or oil pipes starting to leak etc. to prevent sudden expenses..
sandhammaren05
01-20-2010, 01:21 PM
I made this comment because ot the smoke & engine stuff discussed.
Lemme translate for you Frosty.
They say you are having a good screw if you look back into the mirror and your arse is burning white.
Same as you would look at the way the bike is burning it's exhaust. That's how you know your Honda is a two stroke, the exhaust is dark charcoal.
If it was a four stroke it would be a grey reddish colour... that or your rings are shot :D
Looks like Afrikaans to me. I once heard it spoken in an outdoor cafe in Prague, only understood 'nein', and I speak German.
Lemme translate for you Frosty.
They say you are having a good screw if you look back into the mirror and your arse is burning white.
Same as you would look at the way the bike is burning it's exhaust. That's how you know your Honda is a two stroke, the exhaust is dark charcoal.
If it was a four stroke it would be a grey reddish colour... that or your rings are shot :D
Looks like Afrikaans to me. I once heard it spoken in an outdoor cafe in Prague, only understood 'nein', and I speak German.
Fanie
01-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Actually, all the text in your quote is English. No wonder you have problems with your one German word :D
The conversation you overheard was probably by someone who tried to create the impression they can speak multiple languages. We SAfri cans are like that, very arrogand and full of ourselves :rolleyes:
That's why we don't talk to the likes of you :D
In fact it is so bad that Wynand, who is practically my neighbour does not speak to me, and even refuses to visit here...
The Suzuki is an auto lube (oil injection) unit, but just to be on the sure side, I also mix the tank with a 1:100 oil to fuel mixture in case the injection unit sort of malfunctions, or oil pipes starting to leak etc. to prevent sudden expenses..
There is so much oil it cannot smoke :D
Wynand mixes his oil so the 100 is oil and the 1 is fuel in the 1:100 ratio,
just to be on the sure side.
The conversation you overheard was probably by someone who tried to create the impression they can speak multiple languages. We SAfri cans are like that, very arrogand and full of ourselves :rolleyes:
That's why we don't talk to the likes of you :D
In fact it is so bad that Wynand, who is practically my neighbour does not speak to me, and even refuses to visit here...
The Suzuki is an auto lube (oil injection) unit, but just to be on the sure side, I also mix the tank with a 1:100 oil to fuel mixture in case the injection unit sort of malfunctions, or oil pipes starting to leak etc. to prevent sudden expenses..
There is so much oil it cannot smoke :D
Wynand mixes his oil so the 100 is oil and the 1 is fuel in the 1:100 ratio,
just to be on the sure side.
sandhammaren05
01-20-2010, 02:15 PM
Actually, all the text in your quote is English. No wonder you have problems with your one German word :D
The conversation you overheard was probably by someone who tried to create the impression they can speak multiple languages. We SAfri cans are like that, very arrogand and full of ourselves :rolleyes:
That's why we don't talk to the likes of you :D
In fact it is so bad that Wynand, who is practically my neighbour does not speak to me, and even refuses to visit here...
There is so much oil it cannot smoke :D
Wynand mixes his oil so the 100 is oil and the 1 is fuel in the 1:100 ratio,
just to be on the sure side.
Es war ein sonnige Nachmittag in dem alten Platz, ein jungere Mann hat mit eine eltere aber attraktiv Frau gerädet. Ich habe eifrig versucht zu verstehen, aber, keine Erfolg. Dann habe ich Ihnen gefragt; 'Was für eine Sprache räden Sie?' Die glückliche Hünne hat geantwortet, 'Afrikaans!'. Und so war es.
The conversation you overheard was probably by someone who tried to create the impression they can speak multiple languages. We SAfri cans are like that, very arrogand and full of ourselves :rolleyes:
That's why we don't talk to the likes of you :D
In fact it is so bad that Wynand, who is practically my neighbour does not speak to me, and even refuses to visit here...
There is so much oil it cannot smoke :D
Wynand mixes his oil so the 100 is oil and the 1 is fuel in the 1:100 ratio,
just to be on the sure side.
Es war ein sonnige Nachmittag in dem alten Platz, ein jungere Mann hat mit eine eltere aber attraktiv Frau gerädet. Ich habe eifrig versucht zu verstehen, aber, keine Erfolg. Dann habe ich Ihnen gefragt; 'Was für eine Sprache räden Sie?' Die glückliche Hünne hat geantwortet, 'Afrikaans!'. Und so war es.
Frosty
01-20-2010, 08:06 PM
Very good but I hear a little bit of an Austrian accent in there.
Translation is,
I know we lost the war on the mountain but it was the man in the attractive hat that was responsable. The lady that looked like a frog has burnt her clutch and her fur coat got stuck in the door. Toilets in Africa smell funny and so there is no more war.
There is just a few words in there that might be incorrect.
Translation is,
I know we lost the war on the mountain but it was the man in the attractive hat that was responsable. The lady that looked like a frog has burnt her clutch and her fur coat got stuck in the door. Toilets in Africa smell funny and so there is no more war.
There is just a few words in there that might be incorrect.
powerabout
01-21-2010, 12:14 AM
it doesnt smoke coz 100:1 and 100:1 = 200:1!
( someone had to say it hey broer.... lol)
( someone had to say it hey broer.... lol)
Frosty
01-21-2010, 12:33 AM
When the first big Suzies came out they were injection, the racing lads would disconnect the injection bit and run on a mix for safety. If its not smoking with 100:1 mix and the injection installed then the injection has failed as indeed they did.
50:1 will smoke. But then the idea of injection is a controlled injection --no need for 50;1 at idle but at wide open there is.
As I understand it the Suzy injection bled oil straight to the bearings and not only a mix to fuel.
I love smoke filled bubbles.
50:1 will smoke. But then the idea of injection is a controlled injection --no need for 50;1 at idle but at wide open there is.
As I understand it the Suzy injection bled oil straight to the bearings and not only a mix to fuel.
I love smoke filled bubbles.
Wynand N
01-21-2010, 03:10 AM
My Suzuki oil injection does work and I need to fill up the onboard two stroke tank quite regularly and since there are no leaks, it must go into the engine.
The 100:1 mix in the fuel tanks are just peace of mind in case.....
The 100:1 mix in the fuel tanks are just peace of mind in case.....
Typhoon
01-31-2010, 02:06 AM
O.K, I'll answer OP's questions.
A 35ft sailing cat with twin 30hp Mariners will be nicely overpowered, probably able to cruise quite well at 2/3 throttle.
The Mariners will likely be the old Yamaha built twins, as someone earlier stated, they're a rugged, bulletproof engine and parts are still available for them.
Only issue I have with large cats and outboards is they pitch a LOT, look for signs of the engines being dunked (lots of corrosion under the cowls) and be prepared for owning a boat that will not manoeuvre under power in any sort of decent sea, as the props will be out of the water.
I have spent some time operating a Eureka 32 with a 17hp diesel in one hull only, probably similar weight and performance to the Simpson. Twin 30's will be great to manoeuvre with.
Regards, Andrew.
A 35ft sailing cat with twin 30hp Mariners will be nicely overpowered, probably able to cruise quite well at 2/3 throttle.
The Mariners will likely be the old Yamaha built twins, as someone earlier stated, they're a rugged, bulletproof engine and parts are still available for them.
Only issue I have with large cats and outboards is they pitch a LOT, look for signs of the engines being dunked (lots of corrosion under the cowls) and be prepared for owning a boat that will not manoeuvre under power in any sort of decent sea, as the props will be out of the water.
I have spent some time operating a Eureka 32 with a 17hp diesel in one hull only, probably similar weight and performance to the Simpson. Twin 30's will be great to manoeuvre with.
Regards, Andrew.
sandhammaren05
01-31-2010, 05:18 AM
O.K, I'll answer OP's questions.
A 35ft sailing cat with twin 30hp Mariners will be nicely overpowered, probably able to cruise quite well at 2/3 throttle.
The Mariners will likely be the old Yamaha built twins, as someone earlier stated, they're a rugged, bulletproof engine and parts are still available for them.
Only issue I have with large cats and outboards is they pitch a LOT, look for signs of the engines being dunked (lots of corrosion under the cowls) and be prepared for owning a boat that will not manoeuvre under power in any sort of decent sea, as the props will be out of the water.
I have spent some time operating a Eureka 32 with a 17hp diesel in one hull only, probably similar weight and performance to the Simpson. Twin 30's will be great to manoeuvre with.
Regards, Andrew.
Mariner/Yamaha 30 was a fast motor. I probably wouldn't want an outboard on a sailboat on open sea in a storm.
A 35ft sailing cat with twin 30hp Mariners will be nicely overpowered, probably able to cruise quite well at 2/3 throttle.
The Mariners will likely be the old Yamaha built twins, as someone earlier stated, they're a rugged, bulletproof engine and parts are still available for them.
Only issue I have with large cats and outboards is they pitch a LOT, look for signs of the engines being dunked (lots of corrosion under the cowls) and be prepared for owning a boat that will not manoeuvre under power in any sort of decent sea, as the props will be out of the water.
I have spent some time operating a Eureka 32 with a 17hp diesel in one hull only, probably similar weight and performance to the Simpson. Twin 30's will be great to manoeuvre with.
Regards, Andrew.
Mariner/Yamaha 30 was a fast motor. I probably wouldn't want an outboard on a sailboat on open sea in a storm.
Typhoon
02-01-2010, 03:35 AM
Mariner/Yamaha 30 was a fast motor. I probably wouldn't want an outboard on a sailboat on open sea in a storm.
Which is exactly why I cautioned about powering in big seas. Many of the older Mariner 2 strokes were available with low pitch props too, just ideal for pushing workboats and large displacement vessels.
Regards, Andrew.
Which is exactly why I cautioned about powering in big seas. Many of the older Mariner 2 strokes were available with low pitch props too, just ideal for pushing workboats and large displacement vessels.
Regards, Andrew.
Easy Rider
02-01-2010, 01:15 PM
Typhoon,
No, a larger area for a larger propeller and lower gears would be necessary to get to "ideal".
Frosty,
We've had a real mild winter here in Alaska so I'm not even frosty. The old two stroke motorcycles Suzuki built had the most sophisticated oiling system. They injected oil directly inside the engine to many critical places and varied the quantity relative to both throttle and rpm. The effective ratio went from 20-1 to 200-1 and they would smoke a bit under really heavy load but by then you were goin so fast the screamin air just about sucked the helmet off the top of your head. And Wynard, when they first came out we too were premixing also but soon stopped as oil injection quickly developed a reputation as bullet proof.
Easy Rider
No, a larger area for a larger propeller and lower gears would be necessary to get to "ideal".
Frosty,
We've had a real mild winter here in Alaska so I'm not even frosty. The old two stroke motorcycles Suzuki built had the most sophisticated oiling system. They injected oil directly inside the engine to many critical places and varied the quantity relative to both throttle and rpm. The effective ratio went from 20-1 to 200-1 and they would smoke a bit under really heavy load but by then you were goin so fast the screamin air just about sucked the helmet off the top of your head. And Wynard, when they first came out we too were premixing also but soon stopped as oil injection quickly developed a reputation as bullet proof.
Easy Rider
powerabout
02-01-2010, 01:24 PM
Hey Easy
Have you looked where a late model E-tec injects...
Have you looked where a late model E-tec injects...
Easy Rider
02-01-2010, 05:03 PM
Power,
No but I'll bet it's opposite and directly across and very near the plug.
Easy Rider
No but I'll bet it's opposite and directly across and very near the plug.
Easy Rider
powerabout
02-01-2010, 11:57 PM
Power,
No but I'll bet it's opposite and directly across and very near the plug.
Easy Rider
Sorry I meant the oil in reference to the Suzi post.
Etecs now also direct the oil to the crank like the old jap oil injected engines
but they have a computer driving the pump these days
No but I'll bet it's opposite and directly across and very near the plug.
Easy Rider
Sorry I meant the oil in reference to the Suzi post.
Etecs now also direct the oil to the crank like the old jap oil injected engines
but they have a computer driving the pump these days
Easy Rider
02-03-2010, 11:06 PM
Power,
Thanks. I'll be happy if the pistons get enough oil high on the exhaust side.
Easy Rider
Thanks. I'll be happy if the pistons get enough oil high on the exhaust side.
Easy Rider
sandhammaren05
04-05-2010, 05:39 AM
Very good but I hear a little bit of an Austrian accent in there.
Translation is,
I know we lost the war on the mountain but it was the man in the attractive hat that was responsable. The lady that looked like a frog has burnt her clutch and her fur coat got stuck in the door. Toilets in Africa smell funny and so there is no more war.
There is just a few words in there that might be incorrect.
Here's an article in German about modern 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke, for those like Frosty who can detect a little Austrian
http://www.bootsmotoren-schwerin.de/index.php?pages/aussenborder/evinrude_aussenborder_schwerin_kaufen.php&pages/header.html
Click on links
# Mehr Leistung
# Weniger MotorGewicht
Translation is,
I know we lost the war on the mountain but it was the man in the attractive hat that was responsable. The lady that looked like a frog has burnt her clutch and her fur coat got stuck in the door. Toilets in Africa smell funny and so there is no more war.
There is just a few words in there that might be incorrect.
Here's an article in German about modern 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke, for those like Frosty who can detect a little Austrian
http://www.bootsmotoren-schwerin.de/index.php?pages/aussenborder/evinrude_aussenborder_schwerin_kaufen.php&pages/header.html
Click on links
# Mehr Leistung
# Weniger MotorGewicht
View Full Version : better choice 2 stroke or 4 stroke?
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