Wild Oats XI(CBTF) WINS 2008 Sydney Hobart(Well,I hope!)

[Doug Lord]

This incredible canting keel yacht is going to try again-for an unprecedented fourth time. Good Luck!
http://mudgee.yourguide.com.au/news/local/sport/other/weather-to-suit-wild-oats/1393652.aspx

[Doug Lord]

Watch the start LIVE here at 8:30pm EST tonight:
http://au.sports.yahoo.com/

[Doug Lord]

Spectacular coverage! And Wild Oats got the best start by a long shot. Go Wild Oats!
---Skandia got the lead for a bit then back to Oats. Both now(11:53 EST) at 19.4 knots! What a race!
---Skandia got back at least once but now Wild Oats leading-both doing the same speed -about 12 knots....9:20am est.
---Skandia 2.2nm in the lead -going 4 k faster----11:41am est 12/26 (appears that the data is sometimes off?)

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/

[ancient kayaker]

At 50 or so degrees, the design of the canting keel must have presented some serious engineering challenges. Do the rules require only manpower be used for keel positioning?

[Doug Lord]

At 50 or so degrees, the design of the canting keel must have presented some serious engineering challenges. Do the rules require only manpower be used for keel positioning?
----------------------
No,if modified by class rules. Oats uses power for her winches as well.

[Chris Ostlind]

Nope. No men in the sewer save for the sail handlers and the dudes who are trying to get some off-watch sleep

The keel is driven by a running-nearly-full-time.... engine, which powers-up an hydraulic ram system.

Engines for sailing control systems on board a sailing yacht.

Make your own decisions as to the threshold they have passed on their way to this status.

[Chris Ostlind]

No, if modified by class rules.



And class rules are modified by those who have the money invested in the full-time running engine equipped boats.

When you get that it's not a sailboat race at all, but a race between the weenie size of the guys with the checkbooks, it turns the whole thing into a very funny parade.

The real sailboat racing is down further in the pack if engines leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Coincidentally, the same race does not allow multihulls. $5 if you can tell us as to why that is... ;-)

[masalai]

"cause the folk with tiny weenies and big fat wallets don't sail fast cats as the "money club" feel that is "cheating" (they prefer motorsailer monohulls as they cannot find deckapes who are photogenic & don't hog the TV cameras) and they will be ashamed and beaten nearly every time.... Same applies to the Brisbane-Gladstone and the Whitsunday series that get "televised" - not a cat or multihull to be seen..... :D:D:P:P:P

[Chris Ostlind]

Masa,

We have a winner!!!!!!! Where do I send the Five Spot?

By the way, I just had to give you rep points because you were stuck on 666 and it is the Christmas season, after all... ;-)

[masalai]

Your favourite charity so long as it is not the organiser or associated with a monohull only facility/race/activity... :D:D:D:D (Towards your next shout, -booze-, is acceptable, after all, charity begins at home?)

Thanks, but I have been advised 666 is not the devils number as 3 x 6's = numerologically 9 and 999 is the bad number so a while before further concern - then I will seek advice to point elsewhere...:D:D

A Happy & Prosperous new year

[Doug Lord]

Somethings just happened -speed down from 20 to 13...Skandia pulling away.

[masalai]

and the server must be overloaded as it takes minutes to download... Sadly no race records this time around.... Just pray everyone stays safe and enjoys the sail....

[catsketcher]

Whilst I have strong views about Skandia and Wild Oats being motorsailers. I don't think mutlhiullers can still keep on complaining about being left in the cold by the media. Multi races in Oz are few and far between, even in Brisbane the multis are outnumbered by the monos. The monos organise themselves better, get better media people and get more people sailing their boats. Maybe it is because that monohulls are better boats to race - at least for the vast majority of people.

We can keep on perpetuating the statement that no one likes us because of some inbuilt prejudice and sound like other minority groups who are keen to cast blame elsewhere or accept that multis are great cruisers but not fabulous racers for the majority of sailors.

A bit off thread I know

As to the thread I would be interested in a design competition that would be to design a motorboat that could beat the canters. It would be great to find out how much fuel Skandia and Wild Oats use and then design a fast and efficient motorboat to beat them using less fuel and far less money. One could even put up a radio mast with a scrap of sail and try and get it rated.

Cheers

Phil Thompson

[masalai]

catsketcher, have a look here http://www.icecat.com.au/trial.htm - - - Maybe a good "publicist" and some money could make an interesting event, but where would one find a cruising yachtie (multihull) prepared to put his comfort and home in such a race? - I like the better performance but would pick "windows of opportunity" for comfort and a pleasant passage....

There are plenty of multihulls that could push scandia and wild oats out of the frame, but until yacht races remain OPEN TO ALL SAILING VESSELS in the snobbish attitude of many yacht clubs, multihull owners will remain "on the outer": - - - - except in Europe and trans-Atlantic & circumnavigation events where multihulls now dominate through sponsorship.... and the sponsors media machines...

[catsketcher]

I like Robin's work a lot - I built one of his boats and am working on it during my holidays. He has so much cred.

My point is that we have been complaining for all the time I have been involved in multis. Since that time the multi community hasn't tried to branch stack the mono clubs, do better media coverage in the Gladstone, invite monos to races they organise (bar the Coastal classic in NZ) , or organise a rival Hobart event. There was one back in 1966 but that was it.

I say let the monos have their fun and wish them well. Monos are great racing boats. In my opinion and I cruise and build multis, monos are much better race boats than multis. They require such skill to keep on their feet under kite and manouvre so well that you can get in really close to each other.

It is probably silly to get into a flame war here. I like Chris' ideas and your own Masalai, I just have a foot in either camp - I grew up racing monos from 10 and cruised multis since I was 16. My mono friends from Sydney shunned me big time when I turned up in a Piver Nugget in 1984. Things are very different now and I am gratfied for the change. I get respect now for my choice of cruiser wherever I go. I think multihullers should allow monohullers to race other mono boats if they wish.

If you were down here we could have a good talk about this over a drink and I think we could understand each other but probably not change each other's point of view

Cheers

Phil

[masalai]

catsketcher, I too came up in monos, have raced monos and must admit they are fun to race and look very sexy and feminine, but nothing beats a good cat as a cruiser... Power or sail....

My racing "culminated" in 1977 sailing Court 650 and 750's when Charlie was Premier of WA.... I was at W.A.I.T., now Curtin Uni....

[Doug Lord]

Oats in the lead-again- as of 9:20 EST 12/27

[Doug Lord]

I think its a shame multies aren't allowed in the Sydney-Hobart. But it is a similar travesty to call this fantastic sailing machine a "motorboat".
And, by the way,Hydroptere uses movable(courtesy on board diesel) water ballast-is she a motorboat?

[bistros]

I think its a shame multies aren't allowed in the Sydney-Hobart. But it is a similar travesty to call this fantastic sailing machine a "motorboat".
And, by the way,Hydroptere uses movable(courtesy on board diesel) water ballast-is she a motorboat?

Yes, it is a motor boat .... they both are since you asked. If you need fuel or batteries to make it go, it's a motor boat. If you have to stop sailing because you have run out of fuel, it's a motor boat.

Everyone has to draw a line somewhere, and that's where I draw mine. Sailrocket to me is still a sailboat. I respect the achievements of the Sailrocket team more than the Hydroptere folks, but that is just my opinion.

There is no moment so magical when offshore as when the last diesel smell disappears and you can smell nothing but ocean.

[Chris Ostlind]

Hydroptere uses movable(courtesy on board diesel) water ballast-is she a motorboat?

Yes, of a sort.

It's kinda like suggesting that a woman might be a "little bit pregnant". Once you cross the line, you enter a completely different realm.

You like to deal in absolutes, Doug, with your strict adherence to an absolute list of numbers that describe a boat. You also have an absolute sense that a kiteboarder is not engaged in sailing a boat, among many others too numerous to present here.

1. Why is it that you struggle so with this bit of absolute reality?

2. Why is it that the WSSRC describes these boats in a separate class from non-powered, traditional sailboats?

3. Why is it that the America's Cup boats still have not adopted the use of full-time engines for sailing systems, when canting keels have been around for the last two AC events?

Please have the courtesy to answer each question, instead of wandering off the reservation with your answer.

Thank you.

[ancient kayaker]

Doug, thanks for the great pic, now I can see what is going on underwater. Is it just the counterweight effect, or is there a second pivoting axis so it can be used as a stabilizer? At speed that would deliver similar results for less weight.

Hm, motors on sailboats eh? Some rules allow, some forbid, strokes for folks, seems fair to me. Ditto the multi vs mono punchup. Are there races that permit both? Come to that, a truly open race would allow power and sail boats to compete against each other. That might work with a fuel consumption limit, and spark some useful green marine development.

Seriously though, onboard power for sail control allows development to proceed independently of human strength and endurance limits and decouples the boat's performance somewhat from that of the crew.

Oh, oh! Let me nip a yet another potential controversy in the bud. I absolutely do not intend to imply that the crews on these boats have an easy berth or in any other way to minimize their hard work!

[Doug Lord]

By the same logic that says Wild Oats XI is a "motorboat" one would have to say that the Moth, F18 and Tornado are human powered boats-not sailboats.
And that and the other are absolutely ridiculous....
------
Wild Oats now 20 miles ahead of Skandia-Go Oats!

[Chris Ostlind]

By the same logic that says Wild Oats XI is a "motorboat" one would have to say that the Moth, F18 and Tornado are human powered boats-not sailboats.
And that and the other are absolutely ridiculous....


So, there we have it. The perfect fulfillment of the description, "wandering off the reservation", as previously noted. Doug refuses to answer the questions for which he has no suitable answers. Quite funny, really and oh, so predictable. One could almost say... ridiculous, if one were predisposed to do so.

The functional trouble with your "logical" premise, Doug, is that sailboats have always been "human powered" in the way that you suggest. It is the new crop of engine equipped versions that have stepped outside the norms. The engine inclusion does not drag the non-engine genre into the same morass, Doug, simply because you attempt to wordsmith your way around the issue. Surely you can do better. You know, like something that actually has relevance, rather than a straw grasping session that only fills the air with the smell of desperation.

Please show the courtesy of answering the previously presented questions, Doug. I know they are within your capacity. While you are at it, here's another question to be added to the list...

4. If the canting keel yachts with the full-time engines are not uniquely different, then how is it that the CBTF clan managed to get a specific patent on the change, as compared to a "normal sailboat" without an engine?

Thank you in advance for your prompt, responsible and relevant attention.

[catsketcher]

I always watch the Hobart start and it was interesting to see the difference between Wild Oats and Shockwave. On Shockwave there were a pair of guys at the coffee grinders and a guy trimming the kite. On Wild Oats the winches wound magically - no coffee grinders.

It does make things different. Shockwave's crew will be bigger and heavier and they will get more tired. They must sit on the rail whereas the situation on Wild Oats and Skandia is not so critical, although they can sit on the rail too. I am old fashioned enough to still find people pulling out of races because their generator stopped (one boat has done so this year) more than a little strange. That is what batteries are for I thought. Then again I haven't finished a Hobart so my two cents worth are probably worth just that.

Generators are allowed for Round the World boats but their needs are of course greater. Then IDEC sets a record using no fossil fuels at all. We can all agree that this is a sailing boat in the truest meaning of the word.

cheers

Phil

[masalai]

"Goodness Gracious Me" and boom bitty boom etc - You guys need a permanent moderator to keep things in line Doug seems happy to accept a broader view and imply dingies may not fit "pure sailboat rules" is the argument that an engine is the replacement for non availability of sufficient "deck apes" applies to Wild Oats et all.... ????? long live different views....

Patent schmatent the point is sail purist against non use of engines and why should multihulls be excluded from ocean racing by the monohull purists only because the multihull is usually faster and often "races" with mugs and glasses of various beverages being enjoyed by the on-board passengers??? :D:D:D:D

catsketcher, I am guessing but feel the deckie will still be needed as moveable ballast and quicker than pumps to re-trim the vessel, - - - My build will definitely be motor-sailer, with electric winches if the budget allows, so therefore excluded from sail racing as the Whitsunday "anything goes fun race" is no longer..? (the biggest exposed ballast on the "figurehead" at the bow has the best handicap)....

[Doug Lord]

Da Oats ain't fer from da end-Go Wild one,go!!
---------------------------------
Not long now: anticipated earth shattering victory(4th in a row!) 5:30pm est today.
--------------
"Look ma,the motorboat planes!"
(click on image)

[ancient kayaker]

Masalai: you're rushing in where angels fear to tread! Never invoke the name of "The Big M" in jest!

Sailing races celebrate the need for speed, recalling races between fishing boats or great tea clippers to get cargo to market first for the highest price, speed for good reason. No rules were needed to ensure fairness as limits were set by what was reasonable and commercially practical. Of course, that was until the amateurs got into the act. Innovation and deep pockets soon took over the field, so rules we now must have.

No matter how appealing to the purist, it seems slightly odd to spend millions on a sailboat designed for nothing else but speed and then begrudge a few hundred more for power winches to get even more speed, so that men can continue to be men. Power winches etc. hardly makes a boat into a motorboat, it's only the deck apes that are getting motorized. So long as the rules for the class of boat are complied with all is fair; in any race with rules bigger, faster, "better" boats will be excluded.

And rules will change. In F1 motor car racing the rules have changed many times, usually to impose an element of sanity (often called safety) into the proceedings.

Now to enrage the other side.

On the other hand, a completely motorless sailboat does at least impose some kind of limit over size and sail area. And it gets rid of the stink.

Oh Gawd, smoke on both horizons! Both sides are sending in their battleships ... dive! dive!

[Doug Lord]

Wild Oats Wins! 5:45pm est Way to go!! Yee Ha!

[Chris Ostlind]

No matter how appealing to the purist, it seems slightly odd to spend millions on a sailboat designed for nothing else but speed and then begrudge a few hundred more for power winches to get even more speed, so that men can continue to be men. Power winches etc. hardly makes a boat into a motorboat, it's only the deck apes that are getting motorized. So long as the rules for the class of boat are complied with all is fair; in any race with rules bigger, faster, "better" boats will be excluded.


Ahhh, yes, while you may find the transition to motorized sail and keel handling to be acceptable, what comes next in the pantheon of allowable "adjustments" that will trigger the limit from the perspective of the readers here? You know there's going to be a next big powered thing on board the boat, don't you? I mean, hey, the rules committee already proved that they'll bend over for anything that looks like wads of dough and the opportunity to rub shoulders with the beautiful people.

Maybe a series of computerized bubble emitters along the hull, that quickly morphs in less than two years, to a legitimate jet drive booster to further shorten the drive time to Hobart? Hey, you already allowed a stupid engine on board to do the work, why not simply extend the use of the engine to other possibilities? Cha-ching is the sound in the rules committee ears.

Would you guys find it OK if the boats entered were totally autonomous with a series of high loiter time drones providing real time feeds back to the cozy HQ of the owner from 15,000 feet. There, in his leather chair, he calls out the action for the boat to the joystick operator, while the both of them sip umbrella drinks and nibble on Buffalo Hot Wings, well removed from the fray.

Yes, it's a satire of the potential, but it's not that far from reality right now with off-the-shelf, existing technology. At what point does sanity and the desire to restore some measure of order to what will, by then, become a veritable carnival of cash flow?

Do I give a hoot in real terms...? Nope, not really, but it is fun to jockey around the topic and exchange ideas and understand the various philosophies.



And rules will change. In F1 motor car racing the rules have changed many times, usually to impose an element of sanity (often called safety) into the proceedings.


Safety has driven quite a few changes in F1 over the years, but the real big changes that will come very soon will be driven by economics. F1, as an entity, is just about cooked and ready to be tossed in the bin as it's just too damned expensive for the fans and the teams and it is in real danger of doing the bankruptcy dance. All because it chose to follow the endless stream of ever-higher tech at ever-higher costs, in favor of really good, close racing that was more about the driver than the car and all its telemetry controlled systems.

Honda just pulled out of F1... Honda. You know, the guys with more money than God when it comes to racing. They have more cash resources available to them than McLaren and Ferrari combined and they are getting out of the game because... it simply costs too much.

Food for thought you engine supporting sailboat guys.

Good stuff, AK, I enjoyed the post.

[ancient kayaker]

Some great ideas there, Chris. You may have unintentionally let a genie out of the bottle! The loitering drones would not happen, though, but there's already a satellite-controlled sailboat being tested for use in ocean environmental monitoring. We already have one-way only sailboats, how's that for specialization? I look forward to whatever wild-assed idea comes up next.

But in my humble opinion, its not a boat unless you have somewhere to store the beer. I mean, you've got to set SOME limits.

ps., who do you think you're accusing of supporting engines? I don't even have a sail! Although I must admit I have a long term project to retrofit steam-driven paddle wheels to my kayak.

[Doug Lord]

Look out! Its a.....
=========================
From Sail-World:
Wild Oats XI sails into Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race history books


Wild Oats XI has lived up to its pre-race expectations and at 0934, 14 secs AEST this morning sailed into the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race history books. Her elapsed time was 1 day 20 hours 34 minutes and 14 seconds.

In 15 knots of north nor’east breeze and with a sizeable spectator fleet escort, the mighty Sydney-based 30m maxi owned by Bob Oatley and skippered by Mark Richards achieved something no other boat has in the race’s 64 year history – four consecutive line honours wins in the 628 nautical mile ocean classic.

Wild Oats XI overcame a number of setbacks including a torn spinnaker soon after the 1pm start on Sydney Harbour on Friday, a too-close encounter with a shark last night that could have caused serious damage to their rudders and yesterday’s valiant fight back by Skandia to lead the high tech Wild Oats XI for most of the day.

The record for the most line honours wins in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race is held by Morna/Kurrewa IV, the same boat which sailed to seven line honours victories under two different owners and two different names, the last time in 1960 as Kurrewa IV.

Last year Wild Oats XI equalled Morna’s record three-in-a-row, set in the 1940s, and this year she has taken her own slice of history with her fourth back to back win.

Wild Oats XI is also the current record holder with a time of 1 day 18 hours 40 minutes 10 seconds set in 2005 when she took her first line honours win having only been on the water a matter of weeks.

Wild Oats XI’s finish times

2005 (record) - 1:18:40:10
2006 - 2:08:52:33
2007 - 1:21:24:32
2008 - 1:20:34:14

[Doug Lord]

More from Sail-World:

Sail-World.com News
2008 Rolex Sydney Hobart race

Sydney Hobart: Shark won line honours for Wild Oats XI
1:09 AM Sun 28 Dec 2008 GMT


The start of the 64th Rolex Sydney Hobart was not a good one for Bob Oatley’s Wild Oats XI. While she made the right tactical decisions off the start line, she was sailing like a dog.

As Skipper Mark Richards explained dockside in Hobart this morning ‘once we were out of the heads we realised she was sailing like a dog. There was vibration and she was just down speed. We looked and looked through the endoscopes at rudder and keel but we could not see anything.

‘We were just off the pace and at the same time the Skandia guys were sailing very well, make good tactical decisions.

‘’The boys rallied, we worked very hard, it was very tough race. We probably did 100 sail changes and somehow we managed to stay in contact with Skandia.

‘When we hit the shark, probably about an eight footer around 4pm yesterday, we had no choice but to do a complete back up.

‘When we cleared the shark away, we think we must have cleared whatever else it was, a rope or a bag on the rear rudder.

‘As soon as we started sailing again we realised we had the old Wild Oats XI back again; we have another knot or two and within an hour we were through Skandia and stretching away from her.

‘To win the fourth race in a row is an awesome feeling, we don’t care so much about the record... we own that anyway.’

[masalai]

A massive effort and a noteworthy record - well done....

[Meanz Beanz]

Although I must admit I have a long term project to retrofit steam-driven paddle wheels to my kayak.

I want to see that! :D


Gobbles with politicians.

[masalai]

Yes please, solar powered? or coal fueled boilers? :D:D:D:D

[Joakim]

Wild Oats Wins! 5:45pm est Way to go!! Yee Ha!

In my view Wild Oats is the last (and Skandia is the second last) of the 13 boats currently finished and the winner is Quest. In NOR it is clearly said that the overall winner is determined according to IRC.

In IRC Wild Oats lost about 20 hours to Quest, which really tells you how badly they have sailed and/or how bad IRC is at handicapping in those conditions.

It really is a shame that good races are spoiled with far too much attention to line honours, which really is a stupid game and leaves the best sailors out.


Joakim

[masalai]

One answer is the stagger start according to handicap rating so all finish at the same time according to handicap rating..... that will take the money incentive out of the cudos for first home (line honours).... and encourage better sailing rather than technical complexity and money spent to win line honours....

and the Sydney - Hobart should allow a lay day or two then a race back on the same system (but with revised "corrected" handicap rating) so the spectacle of all arriving at the heads at the same time make for the spectacle missed on departure....

[ancient kayaker]

Yes please, solar powered? or coal fueled boilers? :D:D:D:D


That's the easy part, Propane! The hard part is the very low speed high torgue engine, not readily available, probably have to build it myself. Don't have the skills or tools yet so that's what's making it a long term project.

Am I off topic yet?

Just had a thought: how about a new rule to resolve the controversy over engines in sailboats; perhaps one objection is it seems to make it too easy. So what if we force them to use steam engines for sail control instead?

[Chris Ostlind]

So, Doug... Do you still want to argue that crap in the water is not a problem?

Irony at its best

[Doug Lord]

Wild Oats still won-thats what's important.

[Chris Ostlind]

Really, winning is all that matters?

Well, here's my win, Doug.

You've continued to refute the argument over the last two and one half years. Now, after posting your own chosen report of the S/H race, you simply have to agree that the crap in the water issue is a very strong point and that you've gotten it wrong all along.

The human sadness of the reality is that you are not of the type of person who can publicly say you were wrong. Interestingly, on both these pages and those of the Sailing Anarchy Forums, you've boldly indicated that if proven wrong, you would gladly apologize in public.

Go ahead, Doug, I'd really like to read your allocution right here on the pages of Boatdesign.net

On the truly funny side of things, there is the fact that you are not the dunce that some folks think. So, you just had to know that this day was coming and that eventually, the phony house of cards you have been propping-up with all your disclaimers and near violent refutations, would fall.. and it would fall ignominiously. You've run-out the string, Doug.

The day when you would be caught and had to fess-up has arrived.

[ancient kayaker]

Great stuff Doug, and an enjoyable read.

Chris: he's ignoring you! I probably should too. After the number that you did on me elsewhere (somewhat justified I admit) perhaps you should consider living up to your own standards of forum behavior. I've seen you do a lot better and I look forward to it.

[Chris Ostlind]

Meanz Beanz... hmmm?

Nope, no connection to that name at all.

The Jillian site is interesting, but I do not recall having interacted with anyone who said they were from that particular website in the past.

Fishing, huh? Is this you below with the spectacular samples that your customers might be able to catch? Nice stuff, that.

If you want to write me offlist and tell me who you really might be, then here's my email address:

Chris@Wedgesail.com

Best wishes MB and happy new year.

[Doug Lord]

One more thing about the victory of Wild Oats in the Sydney Hobart: she uses the revolutionary CBTF technology which she has proven in tough and not so tough conditions year after year. The fact that she hit a shark with one of her high aspect foils and has dealt with the same level of ocean trash as any other ocean racer year after year proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the viability of this extraordinary technology. Note that in the past the primary criticism aimed at CBTF was directed at the twin high aspect foils. The canting keel on this boat(thanks to Reichel-Pugh)and many other boats is well proven technology as well.
When CBTF was first introduced many panned the high aspect ratio dual rudders as a disaster waiting to happen. Well,congratulations to CBTFco and Reichel-Pugh for ,once again, proving the naysayers to be completely uninformed and unreasonably cynical.
And ,once again-way to go Team Wild Oats XI!

click on image:

[Meanz Beanz]

Meanz Beanz... hmmm?

Nope, no connection to that name at all.

The Jillian site is interesting, but I do not recall having interacted with anyone who said they were from that particular website in the past.

Fishing, huh? Is this you below with the spectacular samples that your customers might be able to catch? Nice stuff, that.

If you want to write me offlist and tell me who you really might be, then here's my email address:

Chris@Wedgesail.com

Best wishes MB and happy new year.

No Chris "The Jillian" is nothing to do with me directly.... just a friend that could do with as many links to their site as they can get. They do family bay fishing with ankle biters... no pissing up the wall to impress, just good clean family fun...

I already had your email... thanks.

Anyway... I deleted the post, why pick a fight... lets go do something constructive.

[CT 249]

"Why should multihulls be excluded from ocean racing by the monohull purists only because the multihull is usually faster and often "races" with mugs and glasses of various beverages being enjoyed by the on-board passengers??? :D:D:D:D


Why? Because the Sydney-Hobart is a race BY monohullers FOR monohulls. It's run by the CYCA and RYCT and their members and staff. It's THEIR race, and THEY have the right to choose who goes.

Every sailing club, every sporting club, has the right to choose who enters its events.
You don't see the Formula 1 teams whining and abusing saloon car racers because the F1 cars are not allowed to race at the Bathurst 500.
You don't see the V8 Supercars drivers insulting Moto GP riders because the V8s are not allowed to drive in motorbike races.
You don't see foiler Moth skippers slagging off cat sailors because they are not allowed to sail in the Forster or Rond Texel.
You don't see those who row 8s complaining because they are not allowed to race in canoe races.
You don't see windsurfers and kites being allowed into off-the-beach cat events.
You don't see shortboards at a Mal surfing event.

Everyone else can understand the concept of like competing with like, it's really not difficult.


catsketcher, I am guessing but feel the deckie will still be needed as moveable ballast and quicker than pumps to re-trim the vessel, - - - My build will definitely be motor-sailer, with electric winches if the budget allows, so therefore excluded from sail racing as the Whitsunday "anything goes fun race" is no longer..? (the biggest exposed ballast on the "figurehead" at the bow has the best handicap)....

You are factually incorrect. If the rating rule and club allows you to, you can use electric winches. Manual power is often/generally slower in large boats.

[masalai]

:D:D:D:D:D and I thought I was loosing my touch....

In motor-racing I used to like hillclimb events. - - - and anything goes for outright speed records sail, power wheel or jet just the motivation source is defined...?
I used to like the Bathurst 1000 when it was open to a lot of categories now it is booring,,, with identical cars with different paint and trim and nothing like any of the production cars purported to be represented except slight similarity in silhouette - how dull....
One does not use a dragster in an F1 race because the vehicle would not be very competitive and many of your other "comparisons" likewise BUT multihulls would be very competitive in almost any other race for monos.... so why not? :D:D:D:D:D

[CT 249]

Why not? Because it is not a multi race!

You don't have to have multis in the Hobart because it is not an event that wants multis. Simple as that.

Would you play chinese checkers in the world chess championships?
Would you go to the country music festival and play punk rock or medieval opera?

No, you would not - because they are events held for a specific activity. If you let all the other activities in, they just become a formless mish-mash.

Sure, you could beat the monos with a big multi in the Hobart. Big deal! A fat man in a wheelchair can beat Lance Armstrong on his Tour de France gear if the fat man gets into a car. Many people could probably beat Lance if they used a recumbent bike, or perhaps a tri bike. But the rules don't allow it because the Tour is for conventional road bikes, so no one is unsporting enough to whine about it.

Our cat could beat the Hobie 16s, but we didn't pout about the fact that they didn't let us race in the Hobie events.

Of course a Rowing 8 would be competitive in a kayak race.
Of course a foiler Moth would be competitive in many Texel cat races, as would a FW board.
Of course a shortboard would (depending on the scoring and conditions) be very competitive in a mal event.
Going on times, a F1 car would annihilate a Supercar field.

But most people are sporting enough to allow certain people, who wish to have a competition for certain sorts of equipment, to do so.




Okay, so you happen to like multis. So do I. Since when did multi sailors have to force our own preferences onto everyone else?

Monos are not fast, but they are brilliant to race and great to sail. If you let multis in, the fleet would become even more stretched out than it is now. There would no longer be anything like a meaningful overall CT winner.

How many Hobarts have you done? How many have you watched? To what extent should the race be changed and distorted by trying to play to the people who have never done it and never will?

[masalai]

Of course not the avon descent which includes motorboats and other paddled boats in different divisions, and the motor racing that used to support a broader range of vehicles is now restricted to "super v8's" and no other cars any more is my point, and I did mention earlier that a return race would add to my interest using handicap at the start line so all aspire to finish together for spectacle at both ends and as it IS a handicap event and includes some older monohulls there is no technical reason to exclude multihulls and apply their handicap, - may need the handicap formulae changed to measure performance as opposed to any linea area or volumetric evaluation...

All I am doing is presenting a case for inclusion where it fits and can be accommodated. I have never desired to participate, enjoy the event, but feel it is heading for elitism and loosing the intensity of public interest...

Read the rest of this thread and ease the sheets a little and you may see what I am driving at?

[CT 249]

You're not going to make the event LESS elitist by bringing in more extremely fast boats that will finish even further ahead of the smaller boats, therefore making the smaller lower-budget boats feel even more out of it than they currently do.

If a maxi multis finishes in a bit over a day (as could be possible) then how much a part of the event would Nest Property (30' half tonner in the current race) feel, when it finishes in 4+ days? The affordable boats are already normally finishing after the prizegiving is over and when many big boats have already packed up. The diversity in the fleet is arguably too great already, and it's arguably hurting the social side and has almost destroyed the small-boat classes.

We cannot increase the speed and size of the tailenders without making the event more elitist, therefore we should not increase the speed of the frontrunners - and especially not by adding a type of craft that is as different as a motorbike is from a car.

There is certainly a technical reason to exclude multis - there is no measurement handicap system that has ever equated monos and multis, as the performance differential in different conditions is too great. I'm not sure what you mean about a "handicap formulae to measure performance"; unless you want to impose very close restrictions on boats or simply go to a yardstick type system ( extraordinarily hard to manage and particularly in diverse craft - how can you assess whether a modified Spencer 28 mono from 1968 is as well sailed as a modified Grainger 33 tri from the '90s?) then IRC is a pretty damn accurate measurement of performance. The performance differential of big cruising cats (in particular) over a full range of conditions is enormous; upwind in light airs a surprising number are surprisingly slow, downwind in a breeze they move well.

Yes, I prefered motor racing when it included a wider variety of cars - but does any major local motor race include everything from F1 or LM cars (ther equivalent of maxi multis) down to classic Fords (like Maluka) and '70s Corollas and then throw in motorbikes? Yes, there are events like the Avon Descent, but they are extremely rare.

I see what you are driving at, and I believe that it is as wrong as gatecrashing my local choir and demanding that they dump Handel for the Sex Pistols. People have the right to do what they want in a race created and run for the boats that the organisers and competitors want to sail, and if others don't like it they can make their own race - just like multi sailors say to windsurfers and kite sailors.

[Chris Ostlind]

... People have the right to do what they want in a race created and run for the boats that the organisers and competitors want to sail, and if others don't like it they can make their own race - just like multi sailors say to windsurfers and kite sailors.

Agreed

Just once, though, I'd truly like to see a group of the big trimarans line up, invited or not, at the start of the S/H (hell, give the fleet a headstart for good measure) and then put on the show that the big canting boys deserve.

Can't you just see IDEC, Sodeb'O, G3 and that new big monster from Banque Populaire just holding steady while Oats does her best imitation of what is really fast?

Sitting in Hobart after a shower, sails put away, a draught, or two, drawn and a nice meal consumed, would do wonders for the egos of the canter owners.

Other than that small fantasy, who really cares.

[ancient kayaker]

I'd take on a rowing 8 with my kayak any time even at my age, provided that I get to pick the course. I'd like to see an 8 trying to get down my local winding stream. Watch out for the big rock! you have to portage round the fallen tree guys! Bring it on!

"saloon car racers" ...? They race cars in saloons? Is that just Australia? I'd like to watch that, but on TV where it's safe.

Why not have an "open" race in which evey boat has to start from a standard berth in a regular marina? That would impose an arbitrary limit on width (length too) that would have nothing to do with any race committee. The little agile boats could get out first etc. The very essence of fairness. Engines allowed but steam only!

[Doug Lord]

From Scuttlebutt Europe:
"Wild Oats XI strode majestically up the Derwent River to beat Skandia by one hour seven minutes and score a record fourth consecutive line honours victory in the Rolex Sydney Hobart after one of the best tactical battles seen at the head of the fleet in the race's 64-year history. "

Well put...

[Chris Ostlind]

Two words for those who would think otherwise


Tattersall's Cup

From Seabreeze.com and Sail-world.com:

"An 11th hour battle among Australia's top 50-foot yachts for the ultimate prize in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race, the Tattersall's Cup for the winner on corrected time, has been taking place in Storm Bay at the entrance to Hobart's Derwent River."

and...

"One of Sydney’s most successful yachtsmen, Bob Steel, today completed a rare double in the history of the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race when his latest Quest was declared the overall winner of the 2008 race, the winner on corrected time.

For that he receives the ‘sailors prize’, the Tattersall’s Cup, the trophy he first won in 2002 with a previous Quest, a Nelson/Marek 46.

[ancient kayaker]

Line Honors winner; ultimate prize winner ...

How many more winners will there be to this race?

It would be less confusing for the great uninformed and unwashed public such as myself if the boats could be handicapped at the start instead of at the end. If this great sport is to attract the kind of following that other sports have the events need to end when the race ends. The common man wants to see the winner hold the trophy while the blood is still fresh in the water. *

Not denigrating anyone's effort here or anything like that, this is just a suggestion so more people can get to appreciate these magnificent boats and the folk who sail them.

* ps., credit Masalai's earlier post for same idea!

[masalai]

Well, it is a handicap race as it is open to all sizes on a "rating" derived from some formulae, and my point has been that this could be applied to multihulls and include them and the only ones who would miss out would be the supermaxi "line honours" (fastest time) contenders and that by re-jigging the handicap corrections and stagger start all could arrive near simultaenously... Then to give Sydney its "mass spectacle" back, part B of the series, Hobart to Sydney, would make a really spectacular return, finishing under the Sydney Harbour Bridge (or a little further inside the bay)....

There are several divisions sailing simultaneously and consequently several "winners".... and absolutely no logical reason to exclude multihulls from future "Sydney - Hobart" races...

[Meanz Beanz]

I hate to burst your fantasy bubble about the elite multi-hulls of the world coming to kick the ass of the likes of Bob Oatley's "Wild Oats" in the Sydney Hobart but... lets just consider for a second that the multis where allowed in the race, just what makes you think that Bob would be still running a mono? The "egos", as it has been so ironically put, would be riding the fastest thing they could muster. Judging todays entrants in the Hobart against other existing crafts capabilities under some assumed set of new rules is just a high school kids fantasy. Change the rules and the response of the competitors will change and I for one would not be underestimating the response of the locals.

Anywhooo... most of you are probably judging an event you have never sailed and only really know about from the media's perspective and the hoopla over the big boats. For me, and many others thats not what the race is about, its simply an adventure in good company and maybe, just maybe a shot at notoriety for one of many reasons. To get a true sense of the race you need to do it on a mid fielder... after all it started life as a cruise with results. That is where I think the real flaw in the idea of racing multis to Hobart lies. I don't think you'd get "the pack", the support and participation from the smaller boats that makes it interesting, gets the town of Sydney involved and gives the event character and life. Face it, most multi sailors like to sail in fair weather with a drink in one hand, blue water just ain't their thing. So yeah if you want to watch more elite wankers cheque book race its an idea... but not a good one. Better to set up some corporate sponsored multi bash to Hobart and see if it takes on with the public... any takers? Seriously if its in the multihull community to start and support a race like the Hobart it will happen.

Now if you want to talk about the real race to Hobart what about the Westcoaster.... no namby pamby soft routes to Hobart, just real hairy chested blue water sailing without the makeup and cameras. What about a west coaster for multis? That would show them who can cut it... or maybe thats the point.

http://news.theage.com.au/sport/shortwave-breaks-melbournehobart-record-20081229-76bm.html

Don't get me wrong, I love my multi... but...

[masalai]

So please let me have my fantasy, and enjoy, in my fertile mind, a mixed fleet of cooperative spirit like in the old days of the Bathurst 1000 when it was a 6 hour race (or was it 12 hours)? - I am getting old and partially remember the events that catered to many....

In my younger days my interests were in motor-sport for the adventure, socialising, community support in advancing technology, It was a network of like minded people who were keen to push the boundaries and enjoy the activity and share knowledge.... Where the F has that spirit gone?

That is why I advocated a start designed to have ALL finish at the same time if sailed according to their handicap (no linehonours) as all should have an equal chance of crossing the line first and next season their handicap would be adjusted to mean an equalisation process in the field of participants....

The other option is to declare the finish time and the challenge is to achieve that objective arrival time and depart when you wish... With modern GPS monitoring doing a detour to increase lapsed time could be detected and adjusted so slowing down etc would be not a cheats option...

[Chris Ostlind]

Snif, snif.... I think I detect the distinct aroma of an Southern Hemispherean who's own brand of pretzel logic has gotten him to wheel out quite a wonderfully phantasmagorical version of a high school phantasy of his own; Hairy Chested, panty collecting, Tom Jones imitators and all.

Truly, it was all worth the wait Beany. ;-) Haven't read anything quite like that foray since Hunter S. Thompson's, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

Thanks for dropping the dime, but really... have you not better stuff to do these days?

ChrisO

[Meanz Beanz]

Got a tick to go with that stutter Chris?

Wonderful, the Chris monster posting no substance, bypassing the ball, and going straight for the man, way to show your class Chris.

BTW you turned out to be so right with your last shot a me didn't you?... Hows your stock broker, LOL is he still your friend?

Hmmmm you also seem to have missed the point of hairy chested bit... not surprising, maybe if you had actually done the race you might have got it. Its a Sydney, Melbourne rivalry thing, Melbourne's answer to the Hobart, a tougher race in many respects but mostly ignored... the towns rivalry is really quite silly and humorous to observe, a pissing competition between brothers if you will or maybe something you can relate too... a posting competition between two squabbling baby boomers. Now don't mention Queensland, man do they have tickets on themselves :D

While we are reading can I suggest --> Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton

It might help you and Doug, then it might not... but it certianly will explain a lot for you pettle.

[Chris Ostlind]

Gets me through and..... the chicks dig it, big time.

[masalai]

Errrr Chris, Chris, I I seem seem to to detect detect a double posting :D:D:D

Meanz, See ya later - - I am going out to spend some of my 1400 baby-boomer bonus.... :D:D:D:D

[Meanz Beanz]

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/columns/ostlind/chris-s.jpg

Chicks or mutton :D :p :P ?

[Meanz Beanz]

Meanz, See ya later - - I am going out to spend some of my 1400 baby-boomer bonus.... :D:D:D:D

Yeah, enjoy my taxes and kiss Kevin & Julia for me :p

[Chris Ostlind]

Beany,

Maybe you missed it in your rush to judgement?

There was a neat little twisted-up smiling face inserted in the copy so that you could simplify the take into what it was all about... humor, my man, humor.

Learn to laugh at yourself and you'll be in a much better place. Virtually all the rest of us here have regular bouts of self-deprecation and hey.... it works. What do ya know? Humor takes all the edges and polishes them clean.

Now, please, lower your threshold, get a smile on that mug of yours and be a regular guy. Nobody called you out, you brought it with you. You've been given my email address for a direct communication, if you like and I can't think of anything else that is going to work for you, if you still have more on your mind.

So, how about it? We all let it go as to the hard edged stuff and just have fun.... or write me.. or not.

I'm just not interested if you want to toss it out there like you have.

[masalai]

You pay taxes? still?

[Meanz Beanz]

You pay taxes? still?

I can't help it I still make money...

Oh Chris....what makes you think I'm not laughing?

[masalai]

So, Robinson? but not in Australia....

[Meanz Beanz]

So, Robinson? but not in Australia....

Thats a little dodgy Mas... ssssshhhhhhhhhh Now the ATO... they have no humour about these things, not to mention Centerstink!

[masalai]

Now there was a decent fellow (Atilla the Hun) - - A right charmer by all accounts.... :D:D:D his spirit pervades, even to this day....? and a pirate?

[Doug Lord]

I wrote something last year that seems appropo this year. Sorry,its about the actual race-can't help myself:
"Wild Oats XI was the first boat across the finish line. She sailed the course faster than any other boat. She won the race and did it for the fourth consecutive time-the only time ever any boat has done that.
Congratulations to the boats that placed well on corrected time, but there was only one boat that finished the race first."
See you next year-maybe they'll let multies in-that would be outstanding. Something for the new Wild Oats XII monofoiler to race......

[Meanz Beanz]

Your a sick man Doug, get some help with that sailing affliction.... it will cost you.

[Doug Lord]

Thank you. A little help from my friends......

[Doug Lord]

From todays scuttlebutt Europe(for the whole article go to their site):
"A Record In Reverse
Bob Oatley's thoughts about going for a fifth consecutive line honours in the Rolex Sydney Hobart race with his supermaxi Wild Oats XI have already been ignited after the yacht sailed back into Sydney Harbour from Hobart early today in a time that was well inside the course record for the race south.

With only its smallest jib and the cruising mainsail set, Wild Oats XI rode a strong south westerly wind away from Hobart on Thursday and arrived back in Sydney Harbour just 1 day 16 hours later. The passage was more than two hours faster than the record time the yacht posted for the 628 nautical mile Hobart race in 2005.

Making the passage even more remarkable was the fact that Wild Oats XI had only two regular crew on board; delivery skipper Troy Tindill, and Josh Whittaker. The 11 others were sailing friends who were there to help get the big boat back home from Hobart. "

[masalai]

So my point about the return race may have some validity? a race down, a couple of days to regroup then race back, all on staggered start for a "massed finish" and open to all boats then there will be a "Handicap winner" and a "Fastest time" for the "I got a big dick" boys....

[Chris Ostlind]

So my point about .... the "I got a big dick" boys....


Masa,

My word, such language. One might almost think you'd be about ready to use the term "Jap" to describe some other form of discontent...

;-)

[Meanz Beanz]

1988 Tall Ships Race, Hobart ---> Sydney Included much of the returning Sydney Hobart fleet along with all the square riggers. It was fun and an amazing sight.

[Meanz Beanz]

"Fastest time" for the "I got a big dick" boys....

Don't forget the I've got "two dicks" or "three dicks" crowd :P

[masalai]

I haven't heard of any from there with "penis envy" physiological problems.... :D:D Baiting those fools is fun.... Just learn to duck & run whilst laughing uncontrollably at their silly antics....

well you need to learn the "********" gesture and the "fucknose" gesture, and use both hands and with little fingers cocked.... (not whilst driving, but on a busy street corner with the victim revving at the lights nearby looking for attention, and the police also watching the "hoon-boy")