New High Performance Monofoilers [Archive] - Page 2

Paul B

04-22-2009, 11:03 AM

Bistros!
True, but Doug and Ernest have a digging function as well. Remember the America's Cup in Auckland some yeras ago when the challangers started to "let" water come in to the boats, so the displacement was "undeliberately" increased. Doug and Ernest showed some style and onle referred to what Dennis Conner did years earlier on an R-12.

I have no idea who "Ernest" is, but please don't attribute things that "Ernest" may have said to Doug Lord.

When you mentioned earlier that Doug Lord provided some sort of insight into the engineering of canting keel mechanisms I read it and laughed out loud.

There is no doubt inmy mind that I would learn far more about foiling design, and also canting keel design, if Doug Lord never posted on this site. His antics have driven away people with actual knowledge.

booster

04-22-2009, 12:00 PM

Bgulari, Bistros, Paul B et al

Bistros, true again. Paul B, "Ernest" is Ernest Seaman (spelling?) a milder version of Doug present at the R/C site some years ago. Compare Andy Kaufmann as a mild version, with Tony Clifton the less mild. Bgulari, perhaps there is more to the other 4 invented terms that Doug and Ernest have created, than we first thought of. When one ask some good sailors about the trick to go fast one often get similar cloudy explenations. For instance, Michael Collberg, several times Swedish Champion in Albin Express and H-boat. When asked the about the trick to go fast upwind he answered: "The boat shall feel dead, but not totally dead, just dead enough." In i similar way Doug and Ernest may have a difficulties to communicate this feel in mathematical terms. In the automotive industry terms like Noise, Vibration, Harshness, Squeel, Judder, Misfire, Slowburn and so have caused some confusion. But generally some consensus about their meaning has been established. Doug and Ernest may talk about RM, but not about the theories of Weber, Reynolds, Froude or Strouhal. I have tried to figure out the surging phenomenon and Hydroptere and consulted the sites below:

Surging phenomenon: www.thefreedictionary.com/surging

1. A heavy billowing or swelling motion like that of great waves.
2.
a. Wave motion with low height and a shorter period than a swell.
b. A coastal rise in water level caused by wind.
3. The forward and backward motion of a ship subjected to wave action.

I start to understand a little bit more. Yes, if the canting-keel is subjected to forward-aft motion relatively to the boat this can cause problems. Doug and Ernest seem to include some resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior in the surging. In extreme cases the structural integrity perhaps may be challanged.

With the speed world-record boat Hydroptere it becomes more tricky:
Hydroptere: www.hydroptere.com/_en/

Doug: "Hydroptere does not use an incidence change of the foils to generate RM like wand controlled fully submerged foils do-similar to,say, Scat or the Rave."

Well, since the foils depth into the water varies due to waves, boat handeling an so on, the lateral area varies as well. This I understand. The "Scat or the Rave" is more problematic. Pop music seems to be involved. Again, a resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior may be at hand. In resonance phenomenon usually the damping puts the limit to the response. Obviously, the water creates damping, and the less the foils are submerged the bigger the "Scat or the Rave" problem may be. Perhaps, Doug have something here.

Bgulari, the other 4 intvented terms may be of interest to study. Can you please list them so we can see if a resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior is involved in those as well.

Regards,
Booster

Doug Lord

04-22-2009, 05:23 PM

.

Here we have a undeniable expert in the field that has taken exception to Doug's representations in the past.

--
Bill

---------------------------
Gulari MISQUOTED me from a discussion on SA about how Hydroptere does NOT develop its RM*. In addition to that he said that the standard Bladerider configuration was a CANARD configuration-which I pointed out was incorrect. I'll give him this-he apologized for that remark.
He is, without a doubt, one of the best foiler sailors in the US. It will be interesting to see how he matches up against Rohan Veal.
------------------
*Hydroptere is a surface piercing foiler and does not use differential wand control to change the lift on the main foils like fully submerged multifoilers do. Thats why it carries ballast in the windward ama whereas a fully submerged multifoiler needs no ballast. Lift changes on the mainfoils on Hydroptere when speed changes and when the boat heels.

booster

04-26-2009, 05:38 AM

bistros

04-26-2009, 06:03 AM

Doug and Bgulari!
Bgulari earlier wrote of 4 intvented terms of Doug. They may be of interest to study, see post above. Can you please list them so we can see if a resonance phenomenon and/or out-of phase behavior is involved in those as well. Instability pehonomenon can be involved as well. Compare the propshaft in the automotive-industry. Yes, there are resonances, but instability p

Regards,
Booster

Booster:

Bgulari was referring to Mr. Lord's tendency to apply new disparaging labels to people he disagrees with. There is no list of four "new" technical terms describing foiling phenomena.

Mr. Lord's knowledge of foiling is encyclopedic in breadth, but based on anecdotal experience, radio controlled models and Internet research, not a strong engineering or science background. I'm certain you would have a better scientific discussion with Tom Speer here on Boatdesign.net.

Mr. Lord appears to have left boatdesign.net permanently, either by his own choice or being ejected by the Moderator for being in breach of the list etiquette rules. His behavior was confrontational and abusive quite frequently, with little respect for anyone other than those who agreed with him, and those who would perform unpaid technical work for him supporting his concepts.

It's quite sad that Doug could not learn to disagree without bad behavior, and that he refused to accept that although other people may disagree with him, they too could be right. There are many times on these pages where I've said, "Thanks, I'm wrong and I just learned something" - a phrase Doug would do well to embrace.

It would be nice if this thread regarding new foiling developments could continue - without the unbalanced hype.

--
Bill

booster

04-26-2009, 03:04 PM

Paul B

04-26-2009, 03:36 PM

Bistros!
Thanks for replying. I understand, Tom Speer is the man to discuss with, not Doug. I feel a little bit said about Doug. We have to watch out for Ernest Seaman (spelling), though. When Doug was exused from the R/C sailing some years ago Ernest rapidly made his best to replace Doug.
Regards,
Booster

From what I have been told, this "ernest" person was excused from that forum as well. Perhaps it was a nom de plume for the other excusee.

Boston

04-26-2009, 07:02 PM

while I would never want to interrupt a perfectly good argument I do have a good old fashioned stupid question

if I wanted to run a semi displacement hull at cruising speed ( in the case of this boat its about 10 knots ) would I get any appreciable benefit out of providing a little lift with several small inline foils affixed to the keel one forward and one aft. My thinking is that if I even just get ten or twenty percent lift will it offset the extra drag enough to make it worthwhile

some one throw me a bone
the rest may commence with round 2
and may the best man win

waves hand in a vertical motion between the combatants and steps back quickly

B

ancient kayaker

04-26-2009, 10:25 PM

Sounds more like a take-on-all challenge!

I would start by rephrasing your question, would the additional drag of the foils be offset by the reduced drag of the hull with a lower effective displacement. Now we have something that can be analysed. For a given type of foil it should be possible to obtain lift/drag values for various areas over a limited speed range. If you have the lines of your boat you can feed them into something like FreeShip and get hull resistance at various displacements. I can't answer your question directly but perhaps that will get you going on your own answer. Let us know!

As for the rest of you, keep it quiet out there, some of us are trying to get some sleep!

bistros

04-26-2009, 10:40 PM

while I would never want to interrupt a good old fashioned argument I do have a good old fashioned stupid question

if I wanted to run a semi displacement hull at cruising speed ( in the case of this boat its about 10 knots ) would I get any appreciable benefit out of providing a little lift with several small inline foils affixed to the keel one forward and one aft. My thinking is that if I even just get ten or twenty percent lift will it offset the extra drag enough to make it worthwhile

some one throw me a bone
the rest may commence with round 2
and may the best man win

waves hand in a vertical motion between the combatants and steps back quickly

B

First of all, there never should have been an "argument" here. And there is no need for one to continue.

Basic physics dictates that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If adding lifting foils would automatically result in higher efficiency and higher speeds, every hull out there would have foils. Oil tankers, military ships ... everything excepting submarines would have lifting foils if it reduced fuel requirements and increased speed. This isn't new technology we are talking about here.

Very light weight planing hulls that are pushed to speeds well above hull speed seem to benefit from lifting foils significantly reducing wetted surface area, allowing much higher speeds using the same power required for planing.

To achieve benefits from lifting foils, reduction in drag from the reduced wetted surface area has to exceed the added drag of the lifting foils - or why bother? Net drag has to be reduced for there to be a benefit. Keeping the drag from the lifting foils to a minimum is best achieved by low hull weight - with less mass to lift, the will be less drag from the foils.

All this to say I doubt adding lifting foils to a semi-displacement hull would result in improved efficiency at semi displacement speeds. Unless the foils are lifting a significant wetted surface area out of the water, there is little to no net benefit.

The benefits available from lifting foils are much easier to quantify at much higher speeds. Most of the boats described in this thread are lightweights traveling at well over 10 knots while foiling - many capable of exceeding 20 knots or more.

--
Bill

Doug Lord

10-08-2009, 07:40 AM

Here is a new picture from Hugues De Turckheim, designer of KissKut. I guess it is a monofoiler because it is supported off foils on the single hull. It has a bi-foil system when foiling...Here is a link to the original thread: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/kisscut-new-swiss-foiler-29106.html
The designer said the project has been delayed and that he would keep me abreast of developments. He did not answer my question on projected cost. Future updates by me will be here.....

bgulari

10-08-2009, 07:54 AM

no weather heel sailing

Doug Lord

10-08-2009, 08:02 AM

no weather heel sailing

Why do you say that? I see nothing that prevents veal heel-what am I missing?

Chris Ostlind

10-08-2009, 09:07 AM

Gulari MISQUOTED me from a discussion on SA ...

He (Bora Gulari) is, without a doubt, one of the best foiler sailors in the US. It will be interesting to see how he matches up against Rohan Veal.

Well, the matching-up, as it were, has taken place at the Moth World Championships, held at the Columbia River Gorge over the summer. The results of how Bora "matches-up" with former champion Rohan Veal is as follows:

#1 and World Champion.... Bora Gulari

#6 and now resigned from Moth competition... Rohan Veal.

It should be interesting to note that Bora won this title going away from the rest of the fleet due to superior boat speed, handling and tactics in the often tricky conditions present every day in the Gorge.

Going Away.... and Doug wasn't anywhere near the action. What a shame.

bgulari

10-08-2009, 11:09 AM

Doug Lord

10-08-2009, 11:23 AM

well...

why is there "tow" in the front wheels of cars. also why are there differentials when the rear wheels are linked.

do a little connect the dots.
alternatively think about what limits ride height and weather heel in a moth

=============================
I don't like the two struts and don't see a reason for them(on this boat) but so far I can't see something that disqualifies the thing from using veal heel. I think the mainfoil looks too large but thats hard to judge since the level of detail is not that good. When I get a chance I'll lay it out to scale and see if there is something that shows up then. By the way if you're going to the South of France Hugues will show you the boat and take you to see Hydroptere. PM me for details...

Doug Lord

10-08-2009, 12:45 PM

I see some problems with veel heel-if anybody else does and can articulate it I'd sure like to hear it. Appears I have the wing angle slightly too low-that means max veel heel would be greater than this while maintaining the same clearance between buoyancy pod and water as between hull and water. I still don't like the twin vertical struts or the 7'(est) long main foil. A couple of things are immediately obvious: there is too much mainfoil area* and along with the twin struts that results in a drastic increase in wetted surface with veal heel when keeping the leeward tip the proper distance below the surface.

* estimated 3.5 sq. ft.; foil loading with 320lb crew=93lb/sq.ft. Moth foil loading=160lb. approx. This foil could be shortened to approx. 4' with a 6" chord. and have the same foil loading as a Moth with TWO people on board. That would help everything...

Rough Sketch @16.5 degrees veal heel:

booster

10-09-2009, 06:41 AM

Hi!
KissKut seems speedy. The Reynold numbers will be high. Weber will be pleased with high numbers. Strouhal may be pleased if a horn is installed. To really kiss Kutta 2:nd order vortices a better cunningham is needed in the Sketch above.
Regards,
Booster

Doug Lord

10-23-2009, 12:58 PM

Found this answer on DA to the question of veal heel for a twin strut boat like KissKut:

from fmg on DA :
"Gui - The boat should work fine healed to windward; although it does have the added WSA of the 2nd strut and that two struts doubles the number of surfaces to cause ventilation on the main foil. Ventilation leads to crashes and crashes = SLOW (which is also why a RACING FOILER SHOULD NEVER JUMP, FYI Doug). Also, with the dual struts healing to windward mightn't be completely necessary in order to get a good VMG upwind, as there's more surfaces providing lateral resistance in the upright condition."-----------------
And along with my previous sketch these picture's are worth 1650 words:
Both boats shown have twin struts-one is Bethwaites Foiling 49er with a canard configuration and the other is Clive Everests experimental twin strut foiler with a conventional configuration-both are shown sailing with veal heel- case closed.

bistros

10-23-2009, 01:18 PM

And along with my previous sketch these picture's are worth 1650 words:
Both boats shown have twin struts-one is Bethwaites Foiling 49er with a canard configuration and the other is Clive Everests experimental twin strut foiler with a conventional configuration-both are shown sailing with veal heel- case closed.

Doug:

Nothing in science can be proven by quoting forum posts or posting pictures. Proof is a mathematical and scientific determination, not an opinion.

Veal heel as you like to call it is a condition in which the combination of lift vectors from the heeled foils generate additional windward lift beyond that of a vertical foil. This manifests itself in faster VMG windward than a foiler going upwind in a perfectly vertical state.

Many boats can heel to windward while sailing upwind. That is no indication that their VMG is better.

The twin strut foilers you use as "proof" for your concept are heeled to windward - to that I agree. I do not accept without sufficient data that their VMG is improved by doing so. This is the crux of the issue - given the increase in surfaces that can cause ventilation and the problems with a hydrodynamically more complex configuration, there may be no improvement in upwind VMG (and objectively there may be some improvement). Without testing, data collection and analysis you can not draw conclusions. There is not enough information to draw any conclusions as you have.

To be perfectly clear, I'm the guy who proposed a concept featuring two-strut main foil which you completely dismissed and ridiculed a month ago, so I am not against the concept. I'm actually happy you've come to think of my concept as workable! My idea is now Doug Lord approved!

You can't confuse science with conjecture. Case NOT closed.

--
Bill

Doug Lord

10-23-2009, 03:29 PM

Gulari here:no weather heel sailing

Gulari on DA:
Said it in boat design, ill mention it here too. Watching julian's 49er I have my doubts wether a setup like this can effectively be rocked to weather. No weather heel i would guess would equate to poor upwind performance.

The case is closed on this question-or shall we say ,statement(s).The pictures in the previous post irrefutably prove that a twin strut bifoiler CAN be veel heeled.

As to this:

Doug:

Nothing in science can be proven by quoting forum posts or posting pictures. Proof is a mathematical and scientific determination, not an opinion.

Veal heel as you like to call it is a condition in which the combination of lift vectors from the heeled foils generate additional windward lift beyond that of a vertical foil. This manifests itself in faster VMG windward than a foiler going upwind in a perfectly vertical state.

Many boats can heel to windward while sailing upwind. That is no indication that their VMG is better.

The twin strut foilers you use as "proof" for your concept are heeled to windward - to that I agree. I do not accept without sufficient data that their VMG is improved by doing so. This is the crux of the issue - given the increase in surfaces that can cause ventilation and the problems with a hydrodynamically more complex configuration, there may be no improvement in upwind VMG (and objectively there may be some improvement). Without testing, data collection and analysis you can not draw conclusions. There is not enough information to draw any conclusions as you have.

To be perfectly clear, I'm the guy who proposed a concept featuring two-strut main foil which you completely dismissed and ridiculed a month ago, so I am not against the concept. I'm actually happy you've come to think of my concept as workable! My idea is now Doug Lord approved!You can't confuse science with conjecture. Case NOT closed.

--
Bill
-------------------
The only discussion of a twin strut foiler so far in this thread revolved around Gulari's statement here and on DA that a twin strut foiler could not be sailed with veal heel-and my contention that it could be sailed with veal heel- the discussion was never about performance. Both here and on DA I've said that I think a single strut is better than twin struts but that is mainly conjecture at this point. Though it is backed up by an analysis of the sketch I did above(and below) that clearly shows that the wetted surface gain of a twin strut foiler is easily over twice that of a single strut foiler when veal heeled. That gain can actually be measured from the sketch should you choose to do so. I do not think a twin strut foiler can be as fast upwind or offwind as a single strut(for the main foils) foiler can. But speed is not everything and there may be advantages in some cases to the twin struts. Take Bethwaites foiling 49er,for instance: that boat is still sailed as a competitive 49er w/o foils and so the twin strut arrangement allows foils to be fitted w/o any surgery to the boat.
------
Further, a number of people including me, think that the most significant gain from veal heel is the gain in RM which can be up to 20%. Only bi-foilers(or bi-foilers with power foils) can increase RM with windward heel: that is the significance of the term "veal heel". The term does not just describe windward heel-it describes windward heel with a gain in RM that can only happen on a bi-foiler. You ignore this in your comments and it is critical to a bi-foilers' upwind performance.
--------
beg to differ: see posts 266 and 267 of this thread!
--------------------------------------------
Use the centerline of the sketch below to visualize(or measure) the wetted surface gain of a twin strut foiler with veal heel vs a single strut foiler with veal heel:

bgulari

10-23-2009, 05:08 PM

it is so funny that you know so little about sailing foilers. The 49er has a major issue that is plainly obvious in the picture to me but your expert eyes must not be able to see.

Doug Lord

10-23-2009, 05:29 PM

Well, as I've said NUMEROUS times to you: if I'm missing something I'd sure like to know what it is. Please explain. Thanks.

bgulari

10-23-2009, 05:34 PM

not until you go sailing

Doug Lord

10-23-2009, 05:37 PM

not until you go sailing

I've just been sailing. Please explain what I'm missing. Thanks.

bistros

10-23-2009, 07:31 PM

I've just been sailing. Please explain what I'm missing. Thanks.

Doug:

Rather than ask someone else to do my thinking for me, I'll propose a couple theories which will expose either sound thinking (or likely poor judgment) on my part. I'll take a swing at explaining what I theorize Bora may be talking about from the 49er pictures:

1) There is a dramatic difference between the amount of lift and drag generated at the two opposing vertical foil struts. This difference appears to be seriously affecting the boat's ability to be directionally balanced. These horizontally separated foils have to travel different distances in all turning maneuvers, and water flow speed is different on each vertical surface unless the boat is moving straight and level.

2) The boat appears to be experiencing serious lee helm, given the tiller position and subsequent added drag on the canard to compensate. Windward heel definitely increases lee helm conditions on most boats, much as leeward heel increases weather helm. Windward heel is also affecting the side to side location of the CLR in this boat much more than a Moth style boat.

3) Optimizing the foil depth to keep wetted surface area reasonable renders high angles of windward heel impossible without bringing the leeward side of the horizontal foil too close to the surface and causing ventilation and loss of lift over the whole foil. Deeper foils to mitigate this would increase wetted surface area and foiling drag to the point where it may not foil.

4) There is one hell of a lot of vertically disturbed water behind the boat, that does not look typical compared to a minimal wake foiling Moth. Turbulence equals drag.

Just speculation, but rather than ask someone else to spoon feed me I'm willing to take a swing and think for myself.

--
Bill

booster

10-25-2009, 08:04 AM

Hi!
I agree with bistros. Anyway, nice to see the canting-keel man back in good shape. Bgulari, seems that the guy has really been out sailing and enjoyed those 2:nd order Kutta vortices.
Regards,
Booster

Doug Lord

11-28-2009, 07:31 AM

"analysis" from DA by Phil S:
"16ft long, about 2.7m wide, 12 sq m of sail, all carbon, very light, converted Ilett moth foil, about 5 years in development, beautifully built by a professional boatbuilder as his pet project. Bruce Gault has also spent many hours learning to sail it and its prototype predecessor before foils were added.

He now sails it with considerable skill. But its still a big handful and although he shows remarkable downwind speed sometimes, he swims too often and he only beat the moths in the very light last race of the weekend where sail area and LWL counted most. The rest of the time he was pacing me at the back of the fleet, many minutes behind the fit young guys with the fully developed, and properly tuned moths. (I admit my new moth at this stage of early development is way off the pace and my early season fitness is also well below standard.) (But we did enjoy some good competitions and close finishes.)

Please take note Wind apparent and other exponents of big foilers, big does not necessarilly mean easier or faster. "

Right, but ah, it also doesn't mean it won't be faster or easier to sail.
-----------------------
Just a note: The RS600FF(see earlier in this thread) monofoiler has beaten the Moth even though it weighs 2.5 times as much. It is larger(with much more SA) and is a trapeze boat. Some people consider that the trapeze would make the 600FF harder to sail than a Moth, others say thats not true.....

Pix from DA

ancient kayaker

11-28-2009, 10:43 AM

Following Bistros’s admirable example, I too have been trying to think for myself:

Regarding weather heel, I remain unconvinced of it’s advantages for a foiler sailing close to the wind, although for a sail boarder I can see that the situation might be different.

1) any heel will move the apparent wind angle forward, though the effect will be small unless the heel angle is extreme.
2) the sail’s lift reduces foil loading but the foil also heels so foil drag is not reduced.
3) one foil tip is brought closer to the surface with increased risk of cavitation or even ventilation.

On the other hand, with weather heel the foil lift has a windward component that reduces lateral force on the strut (struts, daggerboard, whatever) that should reduce strut drag and potential for ventilation. Is it sufficient to offset 1) and 3) above? Good question!

The only other reason for intentionally sailing with heel that I know at my present level of understanding is reduction of wetted area, applicable mainly to skiffs and garveys.

On the double strut question, I cannot see what it has to do with the ability to heel if the foil width is the same.

A) It may have a slight structural advantage since a uniformly-loaded member has 33% less bending moment when supported at its ends (assumes infinitely stiff struts).
B) flexing of the struts and foil is minimized placing the struts at 20.7% of the overall span, in theory. A bit more in practice due to tip vortices.
C) there is more vertical area and hence drag.

Not all of the above is new of course but I am trying to get (and give) an overall picture. I may be wrong here or there but I’m always happy to learn. The double strut configuration is of interest to me as it has potential in a retrofit foiler design I am working on and I normally work in wood which is weaker than carbon composite.

Doug Lord

11-28-2009, 10:51 AM

Chris Ostlind

11-29-2009, 12:04 PM

.... but only a foiler gains up to 20% RM for "free".

That's a really cool idea, Doug, but it's not free.

bgulari

11-29-2009, 03:53 PM

Bill nailed it.

I dont respond to anything doug aims at me.

Doug Lord

11-30-2009, 06:57 PM

no weather heel sailing

--------------
Bistros may have nailed "IT"(whatever that is) but you never answered my question about why you made the comment above:
1) The KissKut foiler has the twin struts forward-not aft like on the foiling 49er.
2) The sketch I did at your suggestion clearly shows that there can be performance problems with a twin strut arrangement(which I've said from the begining) but just as clearly shows that there is no reason a twin strut foiler can't be veal heeled-not "no weather heel sailing" as you put it. You were talking about the KissKut ,afterall....
3) So, ah, why did you make that statement? Just curious.

bistros

12-01-2009, 05:57 AM

--------------
Bistros may have nailed "IT"(whatever that is) but you never answered my question about why you made the comment above:
1) The KissKut foiler has the twin struts forward-not aft like on the foiling 49er.
2) The sketch I did at your suggestion clearly shows that there can be performance problems with a twin strut arrangement(which I've said from the begining) but just as clearly shows that there is no reason a twin strut foiler can't be veal heeled-not "no weather heel sailing" as you put it. You were talking about the KissKut ,afterall....
3) So, ah, why did you make that statement? Just curious.

Doug:

Bora clearly was discussing the Bethwaite twin strut foiler when he asked YOU what the visible problems were (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/new-high-performance-monofoilers-25366-19.html#post309455) in post 222 above by analyzing the modded 49er pictures. You did not answer his question, and have repeatedly asked for explanations. I tried to help.

If Bora Gulari, an accredited aeronautical engineer, experienced and successful composite fabricator, foiling expert, World Champion in the Moth class makes a prediction about performance in a design, I think you may find it worth considering.

Most if not all of the points I proposed as potential issues with the Bethwaite design may also apply to the Swiss design.

--
Bill

Doug Lord

12-01-2009, 06:46 AM

Hi booster -

Which one do you refer to?

Dlord: What is a "horn"?
-----------------------------------------
bistros: the above is post 222-what are you talking about? Why don't you let Bora answer the question? Are you trying to run "cover" for him? The question was not about performance but was whether or not the KissKut foiler could potentially be sailed with veal heel. Simple.
The discussion started in post 261 when I posted the first post about the KissKut foiler. The very next post was Gulari saying "no weather heel sailing"-he was clearly, unambiguously referring to the KissKut foiler! I was curious then and am still curious as to why he made that comment. Just curious.....

Doug Lord

12-01-2009, 03:26 PM

This is from a couple of posts made by Steve Clark on DA. The boat is 18' yet weighs only 70lb-a Moth weighs around 66lb-remarkable. I'd sure like to hear how Steve built the boat. It was designed as a foiler*.
This is the kind of innovative experimental work I'd like to hear more about.

*not! according to bistros and Steve Clark,my mistake

Some Locust particulars:

LOA: 18'
Beam at racks: 8'
Beam of Hull: ~12"
Mast length: ~22'
Gooseneck height:~20"
Boom Length: 95"
Sail Area: 104 ft^2
Weight: ~70lbs all in

bistros

12-01-2009, 04:45 PM

This is from a couple of posts made by Steve Clark on DA. The boat is 18' yet weighs only 70lb-a Moth weighs around 66lb-remarkable. I'd sure like to hear how Steve built the boat. It was designed as a foiler- he hasn't posted any foiling pictures yet.
This is the kind of innovative experimental work I'd like to hear more about.
Some Locust particulars:

LOA: 18'
Beam at racks: 8'
Beam of Hull: ~12"
Mast length: ~22'
Gooseneck height:~20"
Boom Length: 95"
Sail Area: 104 ft^2
Weight: ~70lbs all in

Actually Doug it was not designed as a foiler. It is one hull from an A Cat, put together as a high speed thrill ride that would be challenging to sail. It certainly is a handful! I watched Steve sail it here in Ottawa, and quickly came to the conclusion I couldn't have sailed it to the breakwater without swimming.

Steve indicated he's waiting for his son to get his Moth built instead. Steve is a big guy - at least six feet plus tall, and over 200 pounds - and he's had no problem foiling on a Moth when he tried.

Steve is so heavily involved in building the International Canoe fleet in North America - I'm pretty sure he's not intending to become a flag bearer in the foiling revolution.

--
Bill S.

Doug Lord

12-02-2009, 01:18 PM

Hadn't seen this one yet-thanks to WA. Lest anyone has forgotten this boat is 2.5 times as heavy as a Moth and yet has beaten one several times. It is the only production foiler with practical retractable foils-and does not require buoyancy pods like the Moth because of the hull beam. Those who say this boat is "too heavy" simply don't know what they are talking about. It is an exciting foiler development!
Foiling tacks and gybes -and the new square top main on the RS600FF-and Moths as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iaQL8ItUXA

RS600FF-old rig in 20k:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjoKEug75lY&feature=related

Doug Lord

12-09-2009, 06:47 PM

The guys in NZ have now got 5 foilers in their fleet!
Heres a tidbit-you can find much more on their site. http://www.rclass.org/

"In foiling conditions the foiling boats are clearly faster around the course than the non foiling boats. In sub foiling conditions (with the wand disconnected) the boats with foils are marginally slower to windward. They are faster downwind, even when not quite foiling, as you can use the foils to get better depth at about the same speed"

Cheesy

12-10-2009, 02:30 PM

Doug Lord

01-10-2010, 07:59 AM

Dr. Ian Ward( Wardi), one of the original Moth foiler pioneers, has been spotted sailing an NS14 on hydrofoils. I've written to him for more details.
For those not familiar with the boat here is some info:

History and Design

Introduction to the NS14
The NS14 is an Australian designed sailing, intended for competitive family sailing. It has a simple rig, is light enough to be lifted from a trailer into the water by three people of average strength, requires no olympic skills to sail, and is affordable for the private sailor.

How it all Began
The NS14 was designed in 1960 by a group of senior members of Northbridge Sailing Club, Sydney. They wanted a high performance class boat which would not demand abnormal strength or acrobatics from its crew.

After some experimentation, the class restrictions were formulated around the successful combination of the New Zealand Javelin Hull and a sail area of 100 square feet. From the original two prototypes the class grew rapidly. Over 2000 boats are registered in the state of New South Wales, with numbers continuing to increase.

Control of the class was transferred in 1965 from the Northbridge Sailing Club to the NS14 Association of New South Wales. The Association is now a National body with state associations active in New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia and in the Australian Capital Territory.

High Performance Family Sailing
This popular class has attracted many top flight skippers who have contributed their ideas to make the NS14 the highly developed boat in Australia.

The NS14 is a dingy which is ideal for two adults or an adult and a child. As the boat does not have a spinnaker or trapeze, yet retains high performance, it is ideal for parent/parent/child combinations of skipper and forwardhand. The minimum weight and age rules do not allow for individual advantage in these areas.

The minimum hull weight of 64kg (150 pounds) is light enough for easy on shore sailing, whilst the ample buoyancy allows the boat to be righted and sailing on after a capsize. The crew can be completely independent of the boat on and off (and in) the water. This is a big plus for family sailing, where novice crews are common.

The simple design makes for convenient and easy boat rigging when preparing for racing or family sailing.

Racing
The association conducts comprehensive inter-club calendars, the highlights being the state and national championships. The national titles are rotated around the states, giving members an opportunity to sail in various types of waters. Each state also arranges its own specialist series of events, for example a series of events throughout the sailing season may be conducted at different regatta throughout the state. There are travellers trophies and metropolitan trophies.

Sail Area, Hull Size Restrictions
The NS14 is not really a "one design" class, but is a restricted developed class, which allows variations within its simple restrictions. Experimentation with proportions of the 9.3 square metres (100 square foot) of sail has produced a highly efficient combination of jib and main sail, which contributes much of this boats amazing performance.

In hull shapes, expermentation has produced some interesting designs but as yet no one design has proved noticeably superior. The rules prevent exotic materials and radical shapes being used.

Principal Restrictions
Length 4.27m
Sail area (jib and main) 9.3m2 max
Weight of hull 64kg min
Max height to top of mainsail 5.5m above deck
Beam 1.6 - 1.8m

The boat must pass between two horizontal beams, spread 660mm apart. No trapezes, sliding seats or spinnaker. The boat must have buoyancy to be rightable after a capsize. The complete rules are available from the association secretary

Munter

01-10-2010, 08:21 PM

Actually Doug - I think the northy would be a good boat for you. It is relatively high performance without being difficult to handle or unreliable. You could save yourself all sorts of foiling grief, jump into an off the shelf boat, and start having a good sailing time instead of constant internet bickering.
From memory I think there are a few in California already. They would be slightly out of date but would still be good to sail.

Doug Lord

01-10-2010, 08:27 PM

Doug Lord

01-11-2010, 06:18 PM

Clive Everest is famous for a bunch of things but well known for his development of the RS600(to be covered later). Now he has embarked on a project that integrates electronic control with a wand system. His boat is quite unique having twin daggerboards to support the main foil:

-----------------------------------------------------
This is an update of the original post earlier in the thread with information posted a while back on SA. Includes specs of Clives boat:

" I have a foiler that is flying under full electronic control.
The boat is considerably bigger than a Moth.
At 195 lbs I am significantly heavier than a sensible weight for a Moth, though I did sail Moths competitively some 20 years ago.
The boat is 4.5m long 3.2m wing span and 12.5m2 sail area, It is about 55kg fully rigged. It has similar sail carrying ability and sail area to weight to a Moth.The boat was flying last year under mechanical control how ever there are inherent limitations in the standard control system that the Moth sailors hide with a lot of skill and practice.
It had always been my plan to develop electronic control for this boat.
The boat now uses an RS600FF main foil with the flap glued solid.Control is through a smaller balanced rudder foil using a Hitec HRS5995TG RC servo.
I have now had 5 or 6 hours of electronically controlled flight with no servo failures, once I had worked out how to stop water ingress.
Initial attempts to put a second servo to control the main foil flap did result in failure of the servo under static load.
The core elements of the control unit are a dsPIC30F6012A processor, ADXRS300 solid state gyro, LIS2L02AL solid state accelerometer for DC pitch measurement. The control unit has a 2x20 character display for diagnostics, a keypad that allows me to adjust key control parameters whilst afloat, and 2M of NVRAM for data logging.
Height is still measured with a wand that is connected to a POT.
The unit is powered by two 7.4V 4.2AH Li Ion Batteries. I think that I seriously over estimated the battery requirement as it is still virtually fully charged after 2 hours afloat.
The entire electronics package including batteries and servo weights 900g. It could be less with reduced battery and no display or keypad.
The system is still in early stages of development, though last weekend I did line up against Si Payne, and whilst he was faster upwind and down the difference was not that significant.When I had a mechanical linkage (when the pic was taken) the twin dagger boards allowed a single higher aspect main foil to be used without the weekness of the T joint. It also allowed thewhole foil to articulate and be controlled by the wand and not just the trailing edge flap giving greater control authority but more drag around the joints.
Also any control system that exclusively controls the main foil cannot provide an effective reactive torque to gusts on a high rig. Hence the wild course sailed by Moths downwind in windy weather.
I now have a fixed main T foil and a controlled foil on the rudder.Controlling through the rudder foil does generate new problems due to the extra lag in the control loop. It is akin to reversing a trailer rather than pulling it. "

Doug Lord

01-13-2010, 05:54 PM

From the promo blurb here for February 2010-way to go Paul! http://www.seahorsemagazine.com/2010-February/2.php

Olympic & small boat news: A pervasive influence
Andy Rice is off in search of other classes where foiling is moving beyond the occasional 'experiment'

The foiling Moth has been capturing the imagination of sailors (and non-sailors) around the world ever since Rohan Veal first burst onto the scene a few years back. From being a 'garden shed' development class that attracted a few eccentric magnificent men in their non-flying machines, the adoption of hydrofoiling has launched the International Moth into a new era of prominence. Rohan Veal has experienced being mobbed for autographs by kids when he visits boatshows, and the class is increasingly talked about as a genuine cause for Olympic selection.

So if hydrofoiling heralded a new dawn for the Moth, why has no one jumped onto the bandwagon with a doublehanded foiler? There have been one-off foiling experiments with established skiffs such as International 14s, 49ers and 18-footers, but strict class rules have generally prevented the idea from properly taking off.

The R-Class in New Zealand, on the other hand, looks set to move en masse into foiling, just as the International Moth has done over the past five years. Then again, en masse is a relative term, as numbers in the R-Class are not that high to begin with. Indeed, that is one of the attractions of adopting the new foiling technology – that it could breathe new life into a class with a long and interesting history of development.

The stronghold of R-Class sailing is based in Canterbury in New Zealand's South Island, although foil developments are beginning to emerge in Auckland too. Like the Moth, this Kiwi doublehander is governed by a short list of rules. In many respects the R-Class bears comparison with the 12ft skiff, being a similarly proportioned twin-trapeze skiff with gennaker. Unlike on the 12-footer, upwind sail area is restricted to 13m2, but the R-Class makes no restriction on hydrofoils, which are banned in the 12.

teknologika

01-15-2010, 11:01 PM

Dr. Ian Ward( Wardi), one of the original Moth foiler pioneers, has been spotted sailing an NS14 on hydrofoils. I've written to him for more details.

It is running Ilett moth foils and a moth main, it is definitely NOT NS14 class legal.

Doug Lord

02-15-2010, 07:36 AM

This is the first foiling gybe I've seen done by a 2 person foiler:
http://www.rclass.org/video/leander-2010-super-cup-sprint-series-kite-run/view

great sailing and crew work:
http://www.rclass.org/video/leander-2010-super-cup-sprint-series-1/view

-------------------------------
2/16/10 See this: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/bernard-smith-dies-31524.html

Doug Lord

02-19-2010, 07:36 PM

From the front page,a tidbit:

"The 2010 Leander was a fantastic showcase for the foiling R's. The breathtaking speed, sailability and obvious fun of the foilers has generated a lot of interest and heralds an exciting resurgence in the R Class. Reliability is getting better with the foils and boats surviving a gruelling Leander Trophy and five race Sprint Series unscathed.

Merde made massive speed and stability improvements throughout the contest by moving closer to TheVirtual's setup. They are now starting to show the potential of the older boats on foils.

One of the important parts of the project has been to make hydrofoiling an affordable and practical part of R sailing for anyone in the fleet no matter what boat they have and how old it may be.
We have a specially built oven and foil moulds for squadron members to easily build their own set of foils. There are also people who have already built foils who are happy to help those who are new to this and let them know how it's done. If you don't want to build foils yourself then you can hire someone within the squadron to build them for you."

Much more here:
http://www.rclass.org/
---

From Sean M on DA:

http://www.rclass.org/leander/2010/pictures/leander-2010-sprint-series-super-cup-photos/R589-Merde-David-Pairman-and-Tim-Allan-Leander-Sprints-DSC00915.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

Doug Lord

03-13-2010, 07:38 PM

New-and spectacular-pictures of the premier 2 person monofoiler-these are great:

http://www.rclass.org/leander/2010/pictures/leander-2010-sprint-series-super-cup-photos-1/atct_album_view?b_start:int=0&-C=

pix by Sutter Schumacher:
check out the difference in the spinnakers!

Chris Ostlind

03-14-2010, 07:34 PM

Spectacular... I think not.

This image shows three boats tooling along, trying to get up and maintain a foiling condition with different rigs. Not really a big deal.

From the image, I'd have to say that the conditions were less than optimal and the functional relationship of this shot to anything of the so-called, spectacular, variety is purely interpretive. Perhaps you find it of the wowee variety. That's your call to make. I do not.

beezt3

03-15-2010, 02:55 AM

Firstly, I'm associated with the R Class squadron.

Spectacular... I think not.

This image shows three boats tooling along, trying to get up and maintain a foiling condition with different rigs. Not really a big deal.

Both of the boats following the foiling boat would struggle to foil in any conditions as neither is equipped with hydrofoils. One of them has a set mostly built and the other will likely build a set over winter.

From the image, I'd have to say that the conditions were less than optimal and the functional relationship of this shot to anything of the so-called, spectacular, variety is purely interpretive. Perhaps you find it of the wowee variety. That's your call to make. I do not.

The conditions were fine for foiling.

The pictures are from this years sprint series (http://www.rclass.org/leander/2010/leander-2010-super-cup-sprint-series). The races are spectator friendly and usually commentated. They are run on a short course set close along a rock wall. Races are back to back and last 5-10 minutes with 7-10 boats per race. The three boats in the picture have just done a short beat, rounded the top mark, just out of frame, hoisted kites and will shortly gybe to avoid the rocks, they will then likely execute 2 more gybes and drop their kites before the bottom mark. From top to bottom mark is under 2 minutes. 7-10 boats on a short course means there's a lot more going on than photo or video can capture, so like many things, being there is better.

The R Class has run sprints as part of most National championships since 1994 (http://www.rclass.org/leander/trophies/sprintseriessupercup) and runs others during the season. The events are a favourite with spectators and the clubs. They never fail to draw an appreciative and vocal crowd. As far as spectator friendly sailing events go its a pretty good format. The crowd can see into the boats and hear (often too clearly) the sailors. Feedback is always positive and often effusive. The foilers at the two sprints so far this season have added even more interest to an already popular event.

PI Design

03-15-2010, 03:07 AM

I think they look great - but R Class always have. This maybe a silly question, but did the foilers win? There is at least one photo upwind where the foiler is behind, but that could be just after the start.
How do the foil sizes/sections compare with the latest Moths?

beezt3

03-15-2010, 03:58 AM

I think they look great - but R Class always have.
Cheers
This maybe a silly question, but did the foilers win?
Its not a silly question. Starts with foiling and non foiling boats are tricky. The start line isn't that long and the shore is at the pin end, so you have to tack fairly soon after starting. The foiling boats were pretty conservative on starts. The foilers are less manourverable in close quarters racing and with such a short beat don't get so much time to use their speed to advantage. A good start, good tactics and boat handling really come to the fore in the sprints. There's not a lot of time between manouevers.

The foiler with the blue kite won 4 out of 5 sprint races.

There is at least one photo upwind where the foiler is behind, but that could be just after the start.

The foilers had a few bad starts, plus there were a couple of occasions when other things went wrong. It doesn't take much as the other boats are still quick, especially downwind.
How do the foil sizes/sections compare with the latest Moths?
The R foils are carrying twice the weight of a moth so they're a fair bit bigger. Don't know the latest moth sections or sizes. Sorry not to be much help on that.

PI Design

03-15-2010, 04:16 AM

Thanks for that Beezt3. Keepup the good work!

Doug Lord

03-15-2010, 06:15 AM

Cheers

Its not a silly question. Starts with foiling and non foiling boats are tricky. The start line isn't that long and the shore is at the pin end, so you have to tack fairly soon after starting. The foiling boats were pretty conservative on starts. The foilers are less manourverable in close quarters racing and with such a short beat don't get so much time to use their speed to advantage. A good start, good tactics and boat handling really come to the fore in the sprints. There's not a lot of time between manouevers.

The foiler with the blue kite won 4 out of 5 sprint races.

The foilers had a few bad starts, plus there were a couple of occasions when other things went wrong. It doesn't take much as the other boats are still quick, especially downwind.

The R foils are carrying twice the weight of a moth so they're a fair bit bigger. Don't know the latest moth sections or sizes. Sorry not to be much help on that.

===================
beezt3, thanks for your insight-very much appreciated. The R Class is surely leading the way in two person skiff design. It would be great at some point when Dan felt comfortable about it-to get some detail on R Class foils-like area ect.
Again, welcome to boatdesign-and thanks!

Doug Lord

04-13-2010, 07:43 AM

They've got a new website: www.rs600ff.net

From Simon Hiscocks on Yachts and Yachting Dinghy forum:

* Perfect starter foiler to lead on to the Moth when you have learnt the
art.

* The boat is far from perfect but remember that it costs £4 - 5k for a
competitve package.

* Foiling from the wire is a really cool experience.

* It floats and you can stop and chill.

* It takes a higher crew weight over 70kg up to over 100kg see ardvark
issues comments on weight and foiling.

* The boats are robust and rarely break.

* Many used boat available to add foil package to

* RS parts and service to replace the boat parts.

* One design with a bit more freedom within the boat than the standard
---------
INFO TIDBIT: Minimum class legal boat weight(all up minus crew: 90kg/198lb-carbon boats carry 10kg corrector weights) Updated W/SA with 85kg/187lb crew= 2.75(Moth with same crew=2.94)

Doug Lord

07-03-2010, 08:16 AM

Cheesy

07-04-2010, 05:27 PM

Collection of foiler articles: http://www.rclass.org/search?Subject:list=Hydrofoils&portal_type:list=Document&portal_type:list=Flash+Video&portal_type%3Alist=Link&portal_type%3Alist=Folder&portal_type:list=News+Item&sort_on=created&sort_order=reverse

Pix- is that foiler really behind??

Click on image:

It sure looks like it.... The boat with the blue kite is a foiler as well, however I have no idea if they were sailing with foils in this race or not

spudnpea

07-07-2010, 08:51 PM

to my knowledge the blue kite didnt have foils on and that foiler was behind, a consequence of sprint race course and short beat, 3 tacks in 2 minutes. photo doesn't show the other foiler way out in lead. The rumours are that this coming season there will be 7 foilers in canterbury and 4 in Auckland.

spudnpea

07-08-2010, 01:44 AM

side note, hull shapes could be irrelevant, time will tell with 3 L3's, 2 woofs, 1 old Macca, and 1 L4 foiling in Canterbury, and 1 mod L3, Nuplex,1 woof and 1 old Macca in Auckland:P

Doug Lord

07-08-2010, 08:09 AM

Interesting stuff, thanks spud!

Doug Lord

07-13-2010, 06:57 PM

This is from the designer of the Decision 35 catamaran-Seb Schmidt-and it is wild, No more info than the renderings below.....

http://www.sebschmidt.ch/portfolio/01197/

spudnpea

07-14-2010, 01:47 AM

renderings look cool, but will anyone actually do it, hope so!

Doug Lord

07-21-2010, 04:15 PM

Cheesy

07-22-2010, 04:07 PM

I thought this might interest a few people-it appears that it may be some serious development-maybe too many foils??

http://kitefoil.forumactif.net/discussions-foil-f3/attention-la-c-est-du-lourd-t199-15.htm

click on image then again on resulting image:

Poor surf board!! Kites will have a quite different set of requirements for foiling than a boat...

I had been thinking about building a long skinny board with retractable inclined or curved foils under or just behind the front foot and then either a single or dual vertical foils at the rear of the board (not producing any lift). The course racing boards are so much more efficient upwind with the high aspect ratio fins compared to the twin tip boards

hoytedow

07-22-2010, 04:57 PM

The surfboard looks like a pretty good test platform for investigating foiling properties.

Doug Lord

07-22-2010, 05:16 PM

Well, I think Rush Randle is pretty close to right with his use of a modified air chair foil in terms of jumping(re-entry) and manouverability. I'd like to see what would happen with a modified set of Moth foils in terms of increasing speed-which is slower with Randles foil than a foil-less board. I built a set for a local champion windsurfer but he ran out of patience before he could reliably fly....
I've said for years that eventually development would lead to foilers like the Moth with the capability to jump at will and re-enter safely. Rush Randle is doing that now albeit with a compromise foil section/planform that allows save re-entry. Someday....

click on image:

Cheesy

07-22-2010, 06:35 PM

The surfboard looks like a pretty good test platform for investigating foiling properties.

If its a kite specific surfboard it will be fine, normal surfboards just dont last, there is much higher load from your heels which crushes the board.

Cheesy

07-22-2010, 06:37 PM

Doug Lord

07-22-2010, 07:04 PM

You may be able to make a foil that will cope with it but you just cant control the attitude of boat in the air like you can with a board
========
I'm thinking that ,if designed properly, the aerodynamic characteristics of the boat will aid the boat in a safe landing as well as the foils.

Doug Lord

08-05-2010, 08:54 PM

This is the kind of thing that is really sad and unfortunate. Rather than encourage new development he ridicules it. This is from the same guy who said no boat bigger than a Moth could foil a few years ago: (fromSA)

Group: Members Posts: 922 Joined: 06-December 05 Location:Sydney Posted Today, 02:26 AM

This is a good discussion but its getting off topic.

For those who think they can make a better boat outside the class rules or those who think they can make a new class based on the Moth Knowledge, good luck. Its been done before many times in the history of the moth and to be honest the laser is the only one on 80 years which has been as huge success. The Europe has a long reign but the sparkle has dwindled with loss of olympic status. The UK and NZ one design off shoots are dead, and numerous builders have scrapped their expensive molds for alternaticve new one designs of around moth size. It seems that no matter what people dream up as an alternative they all end up on the scrap heap of obsolecence as the Moth class moves forward into the future of sailing, as it has done for 80 years. So dont create a new obsolete one design, there are enough of them around already.
I prefer to stay with the leaders in inovation. MOTH. Phil S
Moth AUS 3574, My moth Blog
IC/DC AUS 21, My Sailing Canoe Blog
2011 Moth Worlds Belmont NSW

=========================================
Well, the boats on this thread prove the first comment wrong and there is a lot of development that will prove this last comment completly out of touch with reality. For one thing the Moth(and most of the boats in this thread) is a high performance racing machine. No effort until recently has gone to the development of foilers that are comfortable and easy to sail. That's something that a lot of people find hard to believe is even possible due to the years of horror stories about crashes, about having to walk out 500' to climb into your foiler because the foils don't retract -and if they did the hull is so narrow it would roll over and so on and on.
Andrew McDougall is , at present working on a foiler that will put all this preconceived nonsense in the past. I say nonsense not because these little foilers didn't crash but because their crashing is not intrinsic to the design of a foiler! Not having retractable foils is NOT intrinsic to the design of a foiler! Lack of comfort does not have to be a hallmark of foiler design. There is a whole area of untapped development here that could revolutionize foiler design and market acceptance of small foilers.

Doug Lord

09-13-2010, 12:32 PM

Matt Burnett of the Great Sailing Island(UK) has converted a "Blaze" to a foiler
using RS 600FF foils. I'll follow this all the way. He was supposed to sail Sunday but these are the only pictures/info currently available:
--
Blaze Specification

Blaze version 3 (March 2008 +)Designers lan Howlett and John Caig in 1996
Boat Builders - Cirrus Raceboats Limited
Length 4.20 / 13.8'
Beam - Max 2.48m / 8.13'
Hull 72kg / 158lb (probably 175(more or less) ready to sail
Sail 10.0m2 Semi Rigid / 107.6 sq.ft
Mast - 6.5m Superspars M7
Outer Racks and Boom - Carbon composite
Hull Construction - Epoxy Sandwich by Rondar
Foils - Epoxy Sandwich by Rondar
PN 1047
------------
Note: RS600FF is about the same weight with about 20%+ more SA. The W/SA=3.22 which is high.
--
http://www.blaze-sailing.org.uk/blaze-info/specs-history.html

dylantorquerol

10-01-2010, 09:35 PM

Doug Lord

10-01-2010, 09:49 PM

I live in Hawaii so I have seen a few vids and real-life surfboards with foils, as well as windsurfing boards. I might be wrong, but the foiling windsurfers seem as if they are slower then the non foilers. The board is at a 5-10 degree up angle, which I think is causing the foils to kind of stall in some weird way, or cause a lot more drag. I just think this foiling revolution is just so cool. I know that Assasin Moth has tried to make cheap foiler moths, but I wish there would just be some simple upgrades or kits for these "Foil capable" boats that are cheap, not like a $20,000 RS600FF.

PS. Doug, thanks so much for posting all this great stuff to keep us informed. This is soooooooo cool!!!!! Keep it up!
Dylan

-------------------
Thanks! The Rush Randle "air chair" conversion foils for windsurfers are definitely slower but boy can they jump and re-enter. The nature of this two foil system is biased toward successful jumping(re-entering without a crash).
Its been my opinion for some time that a foil that would be fast could also be designed to jump safely on a "Peoples Foiler". Hopefully, we'll get a chance to find out....Now, there is another foil system for windsurfers that is supposed to be fast-and that is the Miller foil system.

http://www.foils.org/miller.htm

dylantorquerol

10-01-2010, 09:52 PM

Doug Lord

10-01-2010, 09:56 PM

I have also found a picture of this boat. Singled-handed foiler. No other info I can find. http://sailjuiceblog.com/2009/03/14/tomahawk-foils-set-for-a-flying-start/tomahawkboat-sailjuice-2/ Looks like some bigger wings could help with hiking out.
---------------
This is the Tomahawk prototype featuring the Jon Howe designed super foil
that does not require an altitude control system(wand)-it is self controlling. The production was to be built by Ovington in the UK but that fell thru. The proto was built by Full Force-the same guys that build the carbon RS600FF......

heres a thread with more: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/tomahawk-peoples-foiler-26364.html

click on the image

dylantorquerol

10-01-2010, 10:01 PM

Wow thanks for the quick reply. Very cool. I read that the foils come on the surface of the water and ventilate and plane on the surface. so cool!

Eralnd44

10-02-2010, 03:20 PM

please to take some easy on the foil medicine, mr. dylan. foil part to the sailing has with it the little bit good but maybe not for all. i have not big interest to that way and maybe to make many questions have no answers as to happyness.

foil sail is very small part on the big sail boat party. maybe as to cooking as french chef is to man of everyday. who makes this way. who can have time.

dylantorquerol

10-02-2010, 09:24 PM

Thanks for your opinion Mr. Eralnd. I will sail a moth soon so I will see how much I like it.

Eralnd44

10-03-2010, 10:21 AM

please with fotos as you do moth ride.

dylantorquerol

10-03-2010, 12:58 PM

sure no prob. Next weekend at KYC! :)

P Flados

10-03-2010, 09:51 PM

The R class experience with foils seems fundamentally different than most other applications. Their web site shows off lots of details on the collaboration involved with the development. It would seem they have set up the molds for the foils to be available such that the entire class will have access if the individuals can come up with the raw materials. The use of foils seems to be an opportunity for those with older boats to get back into a more competitive position. Those involved indicate stability is actually improved (more on this below). Other plusses were noted and the biggest drawback I saw discussed was launching issues.

Most of those promoting foils focus on the reduced wetted area as the big gain. Give me a flat water surface and plenty of wind and I do not need foils to get low water friction. I see the opportunity for smoother travel through chop as a bigger potential advantage in real world conditions for small mono hulls. As real innovators (like the R Class crowd) get better with foil controls, they should be able to make real improvements in both pitch stability and roll stability. This should both reduce friction with the water and allow for more efficient sail operation.

In somewhat lighter air, there seems to be a range where a small amount of foil lift can reduce overall friction by getting more of the hull out of the water. For this to be a net gain, the foil must be operating very efficiently. This is probably not a focus area at this time, but there is no reason it can not be worked out.

For classes that allow either foil or non-foil, the final challenge is the really light air conditions. I do not see how a main foil in the normal position will ever be a winning configuration in light air. Designing the hull and foil to allow retraction with the foil becoming just a bump on the bottom of the hull would be an option. This would be combined with a much smaller (and less loaded) rudder foil and a small separate “light air only” dagger board to give the crew a boat with all the choices they could want.

There are racing classes where boat innovation is not allowed or where it is only just tolerated. These classes are great for what they are and competing at this level is probably where most sailors want to be. However, there will always be those who push for something better. For now, foiling is one area where the potential seems to be there and more than a few are striving to make it happen. Seems to me a "boat design forum" would be a place where people would colaborate & make constructive remarks to support this kind of development rather than all of the negative junk and general fussing (on both sides).

Doug Lord

10-25-2010, 08:13 PM

Faster than a Moth at Weymouth! http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/mirabaud-lx-2010-a-33020.html

reference post #38, this thread....

Doug Lord

11-25-2010, 09:30 PM

The class continues blazing new territory in two person foiling. The R Class is the ONLY two person monofoiler class in the World:

The 2010 Leander was a fantastic showcase for the foiling R's. The breathtaking speed, sailability and obvious fun of the foilers has generated a lot of interest and heralds an exciting resurgence in the R Class. Reliability is getting better with the foils and boats surviving a gruelling Leander Trophy and five race Sprint Series unscathed.

Merde made massive speed and stability improvements throughout the contest by moving closer to TheVirtual's setup. They are now starting to show the potential of the older boats on foils.

One of the important parts of the project has been to make hydrofoiling an affordable and practical part of R sailing for anyone in the fleet no matter what boat they have and how old it may be.
We have a specially built oven and foil moulds for squadron members to easily build their own set of foils. There are also people who have already built foils who are happy to help those who are new to this and let them know how it's done. If you don't want to build foils yourself then you can hire someone within the squadron to build them for you.

More here: http://www.rclass.org/

video: foiling gybe with spinnaker(!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5cBTP7vI10&feature=related
----------------
what's an r class skiff?
Extreme performance, light weight, skiff style, development dinghy class in the truest sense (see the rules for details).

Length 3.9m (max)
Hull no minimum weight (typically 29-35kg painted), 1.4m minimum width
Construction Unrestricted (typically ultra lightweight Carbon/Foam)
Rig Unrestricted - typically two spreader pre-bent carbon spar
Foils Unrestricted
Working Sails Area is restricted 13m2 - construction and rig plan are unrestricted - ie. wings, pocket luff, rotating masts are all acceptable
Kite 20m circumference resulting in a 30-36m2 surface area
Crew 2 (minimum) on trapeze

click on the image and then again on the resulting image:

CutOnce

11-25-2010, 10:51 PM

Doug:

It is somewhat admirable that you relentlessly promote this "progress" on the foiling front. In regards to the "R" class, things just don't seem the same - the wild, bucking, barely controllable beasts have been tamed into silent, gliding, high speed sedans that are faster, quieter and comparatively drama-free. Kind of like turning in your 65 Corvette with the conventionally aspirated 327 small block and now driving a 2010 Infiniti G37 sport coupe. In every measurable way, the Infiniti is a better, safer and faster sports car - but in another it is soulless automaton that sucks the life out of you.

I was in awe for years watching the insane R-class boats sail in breeze - now I'd rather watch slower boats that look like they are going faster. The foiling R's aren't skiffs anymore in the Aussie-Kiwi sense - they are foilers.

Just my opinion, I'm sure you will disagree.

--
CutOnce

Gary Baigent

11-30-2010, 01:27 PM

Here's one for you, Doug, yet another free thinking young Frenchman with his foiler adapted Bangladesh monohull: http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/

Gary Baigent

11-30-2010, 01:31 PM

Go down to La video a la Hune, Tara Tari - and all done on a shoestring.

Doug Lord

11-30-2010, 04:19 PM

Here's one for you, Doug, yet another free thinking young Frenchman with his foiler adapted Bangladesh monohull: http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/
=======
Foiler, huh?

cardsinplay

11-30-2010, 05:13 PM

Nice, Gary. Really funny bit.

Doug Lord

11-30-2010, 05:58 PM

One very interesting development over the last year (and sure to be repeated on other boats) is manually controlled altitude that by-passes the wand on the 26' Mirabaud. The guys on the boat say it is particularly useful in choppy water where the wand can create a real bumpy ride.
I've foiled my own 16' boat using a manual control system* and despite some problems I feel it is a great way to foil and I think it has great potential in racing foilers. Here is a post from last year quoting TomSpeer on manual control of the mainfoil flap:
(* also have used a manual system on two different rc boats with great success )

For those designers and experimenters interested in looking closer at manual altitude control here is a comment from Tom Speer ,post 355 of "Foiler Design". And I would like to hear from anyone with on the water manual foil control experience and/or experience with modelling it by computer or rc testing :

-------------------
" If you look at the conditions for stable flight, the forward foil must have a relatively higher heave stiffness than the rear foil, and the rear foil must cause a greater change in pitching moment with a change in angle of attack than the forward foil. This is why wand feedback to the forward foil and a fully submerged aft foil work so well together. The heave stiffness of the aft foil is virtually zero, so it does all the job of stabilizing the craft in pitch. The forward foil then is totally responsible for controlling the craft in heave.

Manual control of altitude via the forward flap makes sense, since that is the surface that really controls heave. But the big difficulty is having enough control power to handle both the dynamic change in lift needed by the control system, and being able to trim out the change in lift due to speed. With direct gearing between the wand and flap and the boat flying at a constant pitch attitude, the only way for the control system to trim out the increase in speed with lift is to deflect the flap upward, and because of the gearing between flap and wand, this means flying higher.

If the boat is trimmed bow down as the speed changes, then the reduced angle of attack will compensate for the speed and the boat can fly at its design height with the foil centered (on average). One way to get this pitch trim is with manual control of the stern flap. The speed changes less rapidly than flying through waves or even being hit by gusts. So pitch trim with speed makes sense for manual control.

It might be possible to get some automatic speed trim by clever manipulation of the hinge moments on the rudder flap. Aircraft use a device called a "down spring" to augment their speed stability. A spring with a low spring constant is used to apply a near constant nose down force to the controls. This has to be trimmed out with the trim tab. But the force from the trim tab depends on speed. So as the speed increases, the tab effectiveness increases and moves the elevator in the nose-up direction. This makes the aircraft climb, which reduces the speed.

The opposite could be applied to a hydrofoil. If the rudder flap were deflected upward with a spring, increasing speed would reduce the deflection. This would make the boat trim more bow down, reducing the flying height in much the same way as the manual pitch trim described above. You could also divide the rudder flap into two parts - one driven by the spring and the other under manual control.

Naturally, the spring force would control the amount of automatic trim change. It's better to get the force from deflecting a long, weak spring a lot, than by deflecting a short, stiff spring. This makes a bungee cord ideal for the purpose.__________________
Tom Speer "

Mirabaud manual control lever:

cardsinplay

11-30-2010, 06:25 PM

...I've foiled my own boat using a manual...

Please stop telling all these reasonable folks that you foiled your own boat, Doug. You haven't produced any proof at all that it actually did anything except take a short tool around some flat water lagoon in virtually no wind... and then you scrapped it unceremoniously, foisting the hull onto a guy at a windsurf school.

Produce something that speaks to proof on the topic, other than your highly personalized and biased statement and we'll be able to acknowledge that your boat actually did foil with you on it. Photos, video, film, etc., will do nicely.

Paul B has some very interesting quotes from you right after your non-event that came directly off these pages. Shall I ask that he post those again, just so this claim is put in proper perspective for any new members of this forum?