Buccaneer 24 Trimaran

[Samnz]

Copied From 22-24ft tri Thread

Quote Bruce

There is a lot to learn from the "old 24", the basic design has stood the test of time well. My boat is still mostly stock and is boat for boat faster than any of the 24' corsairs in my area, (and most anything else under 35'), only a 31R Corsair and a Reynolds 33 are real competition, and then only when it blows- and I am working on that. Buc 24's and other ply boats can be built in about 600-800 hrs with relatively cheap materials, very little sanding, almost no equipment, and with reasonable upkeep can last a long time. Most new designs I see are glass/foam-glass construction, and glass is not a very good one-off material; the build time is way too long, the materials are very expensive and tend to be toxic in a small shop. I know from experience, I had a busy (and dusty) service department. Cutting edge purpose built race boats are nice (particularly if you have a good sponsor), and require the best and lightest construction, but are not justified for most sailors. Many of the new designs are prototype boats that would work fine with molds and production facilities but are not at all suited to a home builder. In my area, home-built glass boats don't have very much better re-sale value than wood, so any new design has to be a real breakthrough in design/performance/build time/cost before I! would undertake the project. I am getting older and I would rather sail than sand any day. As a boat dealer, I sailed on, surveyed, messed with and repaired quite a few different designs; the Buc 24 was on a very short list of boats that met my needs, I just wish I had purchased or built one 20yrs ago.

[Samnz]

see

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22-24-trimaran-23449-2.html

[Samnz]

BruceB
Have you got any photos you could post of your boat?
I will get some photos of my canting rig system tomorrow.

[Samnz]

Samnz, Looking at your club results, you and your 40year old wooden box are doing pretty well in some fast company:) On a different theme, I opened my sailing world calender december pic with Groupama in its most stable position- good view of the bottoms and foils. Does anyone here have any "experience" in pitchpoles or ?? with our size of boats? Bruce

funny you should say that! A few people have gotten very upset when I beat them in such an old design!

I have never heard of a Buccaneer 24 pitchpoling or even capsizing, I have come close so many times I wonder if its possible! Such a forgiving design, allways pops back up!

[bruceb]

I just wondered what "almost" feels like. I haven't pushed my floats under yet- I guess I have sailed hobie 16's too long. If the bow dips, I am usually going for a swim. I will have a masthead reacher for next spring, I guess I will find out sooner or later. I didn't take any digital photos before I took my boat out for the season, I do have some pics that I will try to scan in. Thanks for all the help, even if we are sailing antiques, they are really fun. :cool: Bruce

[Samnz]

I just wondered what "almost" feels like. I haven't pushed my floats under yet-

mnn, I did such a big nosedive a few weeks back my mainsheet trimmer almost slid over the front beam! It was quite funny I thought.... Cant believe the rig stays up sometimes...

How is your outboard attached? My bracket and motor got washed of and iv gotta rebuild it somehow that doesnt get in the way of the tiller and doesnt hit the water to much....

[aztek]

:?: Copied From 22-24ft tri Thread

Quote Bruce

There is a lot to learn from the "old 24", the basic design has stood the test of time well. My boat is still mostly stock and is boat for boat faster than any of the 24' corsairs in my area, (and most anything else under 35'), only a 31R Corsair and a Reynolds 33 are real competition, and then only when it blows- and I am working on that. Buc 24's and other ply boats can be built in about 600-800 hrs with relatively cheap materials, very little sanding, almost no equipment, and with reasonable upkeep can last a long time. Most new designs I see are glass/foam-glass construction, and glass is not a very good one-off material; the build time is way too long, the materials are very expensive and tend to be toxic in a small shop. I know from experience, I had a busy (and dusty) service department. Cutting edge purpose built race boats are nice (particularly if you have a good sponsor), and require the best and lightest construction, but are not justified for most sailors. Many of the new designs are prototype boats that would work fine with molds and production facilities but are not at all suited to a home builder. In my area, home-built glass boats don't have very much better re-sale value than wood, so any new design has to be a real breakthrough in design/performance/build time/cost before I! would undertake the project. I am getting older and I would rather sail than sand any day. As a boat dealer, I sailed on, surveyed, messed with and repaired quite a few different designs; the Buc 24 was on a very short list of boats that met my needs, I just wish I had purchased or built one 20yrs ago.

Hi
Is this the trimaran you mean?

[bruceb]

Samnz, I am impressed:) , and your crew was a lot closer to the action;) this does increase my confidence in the boat. It is always nice when someone else "tries" it first. I have not been dragging my mount in the conditions I have been out in, but you sail in larger waves than I have yet. My motor has is an extra long shaft (25") so the mount is high. The motor has to be tilted all the way up- almost horizontal and turned over to one side to keep the tiller from hitting. Your tiller is a little lower than mine since I am still going over the traveler. My kick-up mount is attached and braced to a small extension aft of the crossbeam. Bruce

[bruceb]

Here two better pics of the motor mount, and one of my open cockpit. I have a 48lbs 6hp, this is strong enough for it, I might brace it better for a bigger engine. Bruce

[tatoski]

Bruceb,

Thanks for posting the pictures. Is the cockpit of the Bucc 24 self draining? I do not see any holes for water to drain. thank you.

Tatoski

[bruceb]

My cockpit sole is about 6 inches above the water line and drains well- the holes are probably too small, (two front, two back) but it has not been a problem so far. My boat does not have a cabin, just an open cockpit between the crossbars. The forward part is stock, almost as as shown on the plans. Bruce

[Samnz]

Here two better pics of the motor mount, and one of my open cockpit. I have a 48lbs 6hp, this is strong enough for it, I might brace it better for a bigger engine. Bruce

Thanks for that, I might copy it, but do you find a lot of water comes over the outboard when you are motoring without a fairing?

When you say youv never buried the float, whats the most breeze youve sailed in? With my sail area in about 15 knots of breeze we are doing around 15 knots boat speed on a beam reach, and at around 18 knots it starts to bury, which I guess is about 18 knots of breeze (I have no wind gear just a GPS)...

[bruceb]

Samnz, I haven't been motoring in waves over about 1.3 meters, I sail on an inland lake and it was summer, our light air season. Under power, I never noticed any water hit the motor head- it stayed clear or was blocked by the mount in my conditions. Sailing fast on a starboard reach some water does hit the mount, a fairing may be needed. I don't have wind instruments either, but in about 15kts on the beam, I have been using a small jib and a sort of flat main, and I am only getting about 12kts boat speed. I have been timid, this was my first season with the boat and I was usually sailing with one light crew. In gusts, the float would almost go down and I have been easing off the main. I would not have been competitive in your fleet:) The previous owner had "adjusted" the forward water stays so the bows of the floats are down several inches from the design position. It may be faster in light air like this, but it doesn't "pop" up and go like I think it should. My current rudder (not stock) is so short that I barely have control when the boat starts to go. I have lots of changes to do this winter, I hope most of them work.

[tatoski]

I guess an OB motor mounted on the side will really be swamped compared to being mounted on the stern. The Farrier 22 that I've seen at Taal lake has its motor mounted on the transom. The catri has it mounted on the rudder! Even before the arrival of my Bucc study plans I am thinking of modifying the cockpit a bit to make it more open and to give space for the OB motor. Something like the current designs offer. I'll make it a point not change the underwater profile though.

I've been reading about increasing the volume of the amas on the Bucc on the other thread by increasing the length to match the bow or even increasing the height of the amas. Is this to keep it from digging in and pitchpoling? Do you think this is necessary? I am planning to do coastal cruising and crossing to other islands mostly daysailing. Do I need to increase the volume of the amas? Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Tatoski

[Samnz]

The problem with moving the motor aft is the boat is allready fairly bow up/stern down and it would make it worse. When I go crusing I put the water container in the bow locker to try keep the boat trim.

The floats how they are are very safe as they will sink under and the boat will round head to wind if overpowered. I have had many close moments when I think with bigger volume floats may have capzised! This is also why Farriers have small floats. However it would have a higher top speed and pitch less with longer floats, so I would stretch them to 7.5m if I were you but keep the rest of the measurements the same.

[tatoski]

Samnz,

Thanks for the advice. Do longer waterlines for cats and tris make them faster? I thought hull speed limitations apply only to displacement boats and not narrow and long hulls of cats and tris.

By the way with your 6 hp under full throttle and calm seas what speed do you get out of your bucc 24?

Thanks

Tatoski

[Samnz]

I have a 5hp, Bruce has a 6hp. I get max 6.8 knots, 6 knots with crusing gear on the boat.

Waterline is not such a big factor on multihulls as it is on monohulls, eg the bucc 24 will be faster than a 40 ft cruising cat, however more waterline will always give more speed if the power to weight ratio is maintained, because there is allways waves which slow the boat down.

[boat fan]

Samnz,

...... Do longer waterlines for cats and tris make them faster? I thought hull speed limitations apply only to displacement boats and not narrow and long hulls of cats and tris.........

Thanks

Tatoski

Narrow and long hulls of cats and tris are displacement hulls.

[bruceb]

I would mount the motor on the side - It keeps the weight off the stern, the prop stays in the water more, and it is a lot easier to start and operate the engine and not fall overboard:( Really! Buc 24's are very fine aft, floats and main hull, they certainly don't need any extra aft trim. I just checked my motor- an older Mariner 5!hp extra long shaft with a short shaft prop. I get about 7.2 kts in very smooth conditions with just me on the boat. Extra weight does slow it down a little. I have changed props on several very light sport and multi boats and gotten good results. The engine manufacture's usually put "pusher" pitched props on their long shaft models and speed props on the short models. The speed props usually work better on our boats. Next summer I am going to try a 15hp I have, just to see what happens:)

[Samnz]

Narrow and long hulls of cats and tris are displacement hulls.

not in the traditional sense. Iv seen this argument so many times before...
:)
The formula for hull speed doesnt seem to apply for multihulls, as my 6.5m floats (main hull nearly out) can get to 19 knots in flat water, but arent planing... so?

[Samnz]

Next summer I am going to try a 15hp I have, just to see what happens:)

iv tried that, got 12 knots out of it! :D

[tatoski]

The floats how they are are very safe as they will sink under and the boat will round head to wind if overpowered. I have had many close moments when I think with bigger volume floats may have capzised! This is also why Farriers have small floats. However it would have a higher top speed and pitch less with longer floats, so I would stretch them to 7.5m if I were you but keep the rest of the measurements the same.

Samnz,

If the boat buries a float wouldn't the boat bear away and not round up? I have not sailed multihulls but on a reach I believe the leeward float will bury and cause more resistance acting like a fulcrum where the boat will pivot from and cause the boat to bear away? Thanks

Tatoski

[boat fan]

not in the traditional sense. Iv seen this argument so many times before...
:)



Damn.....:D I wasn`t going to post that because I just KNEW I would get this response.....:D .......Because I have seen that argument too many times also.

You are right Samnz. Multies cheat the rule somehow.

my 6.5m floats (main hull nearly out) can get to 19 knots in flat water, but arent planing... so?

Well , there it is ......if the floats are not planing ......they cannot be planing hulls...Soooo...what are they ? :D

I still think of them as displacement hulls . its a dilemma.:D

[jorgejbp]

Does anybody have pictures of the building of a Buc 24?
Thks.

[dialdan]

jorgejbp
Hi
I don,t have pictures but the construction method is very simple, known as tortured ply which gives it it,s stiffness, basically the sides are cutout to the given dimensions ,both sides can be cutout at the same time ,the transom and stem are glued into place and then the rest of the frames are forced into the sides. Too easy
Al

[Samnz]

jorgejbp
Hi
I don,t have pictures but the construction method is very simple, known as tortured ply which gives it it,s stiffness, basically the sides are cutout to the given dimensions ,both sides can be cutout at the same time ,the transom and stem are glued into place and then the rest of the frames are forced into the sides. Too easy
Al

Actually I think the design is hard chine ply, not tortured ply...

I havent got any photos I have been told my boat was built by setting up the frames, butt joining (with backing plate) all the sheets of ply together (for the bottom and topsides) on the floor and cutting the shape out and attaching stringers before each panel is attached onto the frames. Whole operation is very quick and easy from all accounts...

[Samnz]

Samnz,

If the boat buries a float wouldn't the boat bear away and not round up? I have not sailed multihulls but on a reach I believe the leeward float will bury and cause more resistance acting like a fulcrum where the boat will pivot from and cause the boat to bear away? Thanks

Tatoski

The multihulls will gain some leward helm as the leward hull gains more immersion but it shouldnt cause it to bear away, unless the boat has no weather helm to start with. In my boat its the reverse of a monohull sailing to windward, there is lots of weather helm when it is light breeze, then the helm comes very light when the boat is powered up, because the float is balancing the wether helm.

Either way when a multihull is pushed to the very edge the boat will either pitchpole or round up, look at videos of the volvo x 40s...

at 1min 3 secs in this vid it is quite clear
http://www.isharescup.com/video.asp?vidid=1610677988

[tatoski]

Samnz, thanks for replying. There are many videos in the link you mentioned. Which one is it? Thanks in advance.

Tatoski

[Samnz]

Samnz, thanks for replying. There are many videos in the link you mentioned. Which one is it? Thanks in advance.

Tatoski

the one right in the middle of the screen...

[oldsailor7]

Of course multihulls are displacement boats.

Most monohulls have W/L hull to beam ratios of 4-6 :1, and make a hole in the water which the sails can't supply enough power for the hull to climb out of. This is the boats limiting hull speed.

The Late Edmund Bruce had the run of the British Govts Naval test tank facility and in the mid 1960's tested out many hull forms.
He found that as hull L/B ratios increased the wave making feature diminished untill at an L/B ratio of 12:1 there was no adverse wave at all. From that point on further increases in L/B ratio entered the area of diminishing returns, as wetted surface increase increased drag due to the diminishing displacement. This meant only the very lightest boats benefitted from very high L/B ratios, EG:- The Tornado and modern Cats like the Formula 40's.
Richard Woods "Gwahir" has an L/B ratio of 15:1 for instance, but is very light and not suitable for loading up with a lot of cruising gear. But it was designed
specifically for racing. IE:- Horses for Courses.

The Bucaneer 24 was designed to be a simple, easy to build, fast "Pocket Cruiser". It has an L/B ratio of 8:1, a compromise between good weight carrying capacity and good light wind performance. I think even Lock was suprised by the way this small boat was "Tweaked" and turned out to be a little race winner.

[bruceb]

A few years ago I was staying on board a 200,000lbs+ motor sailor moored at the end of a dock in Sydney harbor. When one of the fast catamaran ferrys came by, there would only be a few inch high wake on the surface, but a shock wave would hit us and raise us 1-2 inches straight up. The water was displaced, and it had to go somewhere even if you didn't see it. Strange feeling though. Bruce

[bruceb]

Samnz, What sort of dagger board are you using? Bruce

[bruceb]

Has anyone calculated the volume of a stock buc 24 float, and what should one weigh when new and dry? Bruce

[Samnz]

Has anyone calculated the volume of a stock buc 24 float, and what should one weigh when new and dry? Bruce

I have never fully calculated it but its approx 1000 L.

My floats which are fully 4mm ply and cedar stringers with a light dynel cloth weigh 75kg each.

My centre board is currently 2m x 40mm x 400mm not sure on the foil section as its secondhand and very heavy, around 10 kg.

Its in a vertical case I think (from another thread) was retrofitted around 1990.

[bruceb]

Thanks, I think my floats are about 100 kg, they are 1/4 inch fir ply with the decks glassed, and may be a little wet. I had guessed the volume around 1100 L, so we are in the same range. I guess "new" theory would make them 22-24' long and about 1600+ L, but that seems really large to me. Your board is a little larger than the one I am working on, but I would have to change the trunk to use one like yours. 20kg doesn't seem too heavy for that size board. Bruce

[Samnz]

Thanks, I think my floats are about 100 kg, they are 1/4 inch fir ply with the decks glassed, and may be a little wet. I had guessed the volume around 1100 L, so we are in the same range. I guess "new" theory would make them 22-24' long and about 1600+ L, but that seems really large to me. Your board is a little larger than the one I am working on, but I would have to change the trunk to use one like yours. 20kg doesn't seem too heavy for that size board. Bruce

I have devised a very simple system for airing out the floats, keeps them bone dry inside, will get some pics for you. Its importaint to keep air flow in a timber enclosed space I think to prevent mould and rot. Even tho my floats are fully sealed inside with everdure it still worries me!

At the bow just in front of the beam there is a 1.5 inch skin fitting with the thread poking upwards. I have two fittings for this thread, a cap, and a 90 degree hose tail. On the mooring I put the hose tail on pointing forward, when sailing I put the cap on.

At the aft end I just remove the aft most inspection port lid and sit a solar vent in the hole when not sailing.

[basildog]

Samnz
The centre board in your boat was built by Phil Atkinson in Keri Keri for me when I owned the boat. I feel he just went by feel regards shape etc. The day it was fitted was prior to a Wednesday night race and the performance improvement was huge over the original short aft sloping board
Tony

[Samnz]

Samnz
The centre board in your boat was built by Phil Atkinson in Keri Keri for me when I owned the boat. I feel he just went by feel regards shape etc. The day it was fitted was prior to a Wednesday night race and the performance improvement was huge over the original short aft sloping board
Tony

Hi Tony, thanks for the info, I have been meaning to PM you for more details about the case construction.

I have actually just replaced the board it came with with a very similer but 10mm narrower slightly smaller chord and slightly longer, with a slightly higher speed foil shape, as the board it came with was in very bad shape when I bought the boat.

Do you know much about the rudder and case? it self destructed the first time we hit 17 Knots :eek:

[bruceb]

I am interested in any board and rudder info; I am making new ones now, thanks guys. I have just ordered a pair of solar vents- I know I need them, thanks for reminding me. I have found several spots of rot in the upper parts of my floats, the decks are epoxy/glass covered and don't seem to leak, but the condensation is way too much. I already have removable 3" cowl vents fore and aft, but I don't know if the previous owner really used them- the solar vents help almost any boat. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

When I removed the fixed fin from the bottom of my Buc 24 in the spring of 1972, I replaced it with a daggerboard.
I can't remember the exact dimensions,--but it had a rectangular planform with an accurately shaped 8% supersonic airfoil section.
The bottom end was blunt, so that when the board was fully retracted it faired with the bottom of the keel.
Top and bottom of the box was masked with a fibreglass seal which closely followed the section shape of the board.
I do remember that when the board was fully down the exposed blade had an aspect ratio of 3:1, so it was probably something like 300 x 900mm and about 25mm thick.
It was very quick and close winded, not just because of the board, but also because I built the boat with the MK2 Cabin length--but the MK1 cabin width.
This enabled narrower jib sheeting angles, which combined with the new board made the boat so good on windward courses. :D

[bruceb]

Oldsailor, I am building a new board this winter and planing on using it in the existing trunk so I am limited to about 30 mm thick and a cord of 350 mm. I will make it long with tapered tip. (I have made a blank so I know it fits). I have naca 8.5% pattern that looks about right. I may change the trunk later, but right now I am only making a board and rudder. Did your board retract through the cabin top? If I have more time I am going to "mess" with the floats, mine need some work and I think I will get the most gain with them. Bruce

[tatoski]

Is it possible to do it like the arrangement of the Farrier 22. The board goes out of the cabin. For the Buc 24 is it possible or will it hit the mast or step. I believe it'll be easier to pull it out from the cabin top compared to from the inside because of better leverage. I also get a little seasick when I'm belowdecks.:o A daggerboard operated from the cabin top will also allow the board to dimensioned optimally because of the freedom in length not being limited by the cabin height. But I guess this might make it heavier. Well, design is really a compromise.

[bruceb]

The way the buc 24 is designed, the mast step gets in the way of the board forward, and would require major mods to change, but easy enough if building new. A long board would have to exit through the cabin top and is only limited by boom clearance if you want to sail with the board up. I don't have a cabin, so it is not a problem for me. I just wondered how other boats were dealing with it. The daggerboard I am building will be just over 7' total with 5.5' exposed with it all the way down. I have done quite a few calculations on shape and size, but the final size was determined by the nice cedar board I found. Bruce

[tatoski]

Thanks for the advice Oldsailor. Normally I build the boats according to plans but in the case of Buc 24 with the known and proven mods I guess I'll incorporate a few of these mods for a little more performance. On the other hand I'll be sailing her on a lake and do occasional coastal cruising with my wife and kids and might not require these mods. Is the Buc24 originally designed as a racer or as a cruiser or both? Thanks

Tatoski

[oldsailor7]

The board I described in my post#40 above, was arranged vertically with its centre of area in the same horizontal position as the board shown on the plans. This takes the top of the board box well away from the mast bulkhead and further back in line with frame #5. The top of the board box was inline with the top of the cabin seat and stoutly braced to the mid stringer on each side. I used two pieces of 1" x 12" which then forms a convenient seat for the cook facing the galley. The board had a cap on it so it can't go any further down the boardbox than designed. When the board is down (which it is most of the time) it is quite unobtrousive.

Bruce, I have to ask you. Why are you making your board so long.:?:
It is only necessary for the exposed part of the board to have an area of 2% of the projected sail area, (main + foretriangle). More is unnecessary drag and weight. The board section shown on the plans aproximates to NACA 63-010--with a slightly thicker trailing edge (for strength).
A rectangular plan form is simple and effective on a small boat like this.
An elliptical planform is a little more efficient, but the board has then to be tapered in thickness toward the tip to maintain the T:C ratio, otherwise the extra efficiency is not realised. Also when sailing with the board in a partly retracted position, board box turbulence occurs. :eek:

[bruceb]

I am experimenting- but I am also trying to address most of the issues. I am using the stock trunk, but only part of it, the rear will have a filler block and the front is open so I can tilt the board aft. My board is only 325mm cord and starts to taper about half way down so I can raise it part way with out creating turbulence. The area I sail in has lots of light air and a little extra area is usually justified for the frequent tacks. I have printed templets for a NACA 6308.5 and a 64a8.5 as a start. I am certainly open to others. I will probably use the 63 series for a little more stall resistance. I consider the board sort of a "tuning" device that I can change. Anyway, I may hit something and Have to replace it:( - our lake is still 20' low. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

There must be lots of viewers of this thread who only have a vague idea of what a Buc. 24 looks like. So:- Heres a three-view.
Note the near round bilge and outriggers which barely touch the water.
This is what makes this little boat so fast in light airs.

http://www.oldpilotsairport.com/display.html?ImageName=buc24threeview

[bruceb]

Thanks, I don't have that sheet in my plan set. I never had seen the stock rig plan. Bruce

[Gary Baigent]

Gorgeous models old pilot/sailor - IMO trimarans and aircraft are evolving into somethng very similar - and with your modelling skills would suggest you design and build an enlarged ultra-lightweight aircraft model/trimaran, say 7-8 metres long??

[bruceb]

Buc 24 # 151- The deck was removed before I bought the boat. It makes a really roomy daysailor:) Bruce

[Samnz]

http://www.oceanphotography.co.nz/lightbox/index.php?module=media&pId=102&id=5460

http://www.oceanphotography.co.nz/lightbox/index.php?module=media&pId=102&id=5442

Some recent photos of a slightly modified Bucc 24...

[oldsailor7]

Great shots SAM. Really catches the action. :cool:

[Samnz]

Great shots SAM. Really catches the action. :cool:

Thanks

Also, this may be of some interest

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/boat_ranking.php?rnk=1&mu=3&s_bname=&s_bdesign=&s=1

this is the list of 21 measured multihulls that have raced and fit the 8.5 rule in NZ from fastest to slowest using a mathematical formula.

Creepy Crawler is a Hughs 25.

[oldsailor7]

YEA :D GBE's RULE. :cool:

[bruceb]

Are the GBE cats in that class production boats or customs? We only see a very few of the larger ones here in the US.

[oldsailor7]

The GBE is an out and out racing machine.

Comparing the 28' Cat with a 24" Tri is like comparing chalk with cheese. :D

[oldsailor7]

Thanks for the advice Oldsailor. Normally I build the boats according to plans but in the case of Buc 24 with the known and proven mods I guess I'll incorporate a few of these mods for a little more performance. On the other hand I'll be sailing her on a lake and do occasional coastal cruising with my wife and kids and might not require these mods. Is the Buc24 originally designed as a racer or as a cruiser or both? Thanks

Tatoski

Theres no need for any mods unless you are going to engage in serious racing. It is plenty fast as it is.

It was designed as a simple "Pocket Cruiser". Only use the provided alternate spade rudder if you feel you don't need the convenience of a "Pivot up" type rudder.

Regarding the daggerboard, you only need to make it with the exposed part having its leading and trailing edges parallel and the tip squared off in line with the box bottom. The little bit of extra area is beneficial and with the board up, the box mouth is closed.

The stock rig and sails as shown are fine and should not be altered unless serious racing is anticipated. You don't want to frighten your family. LOL.

Hope this helps. :D

[bruceb]

My boat sails quite well with one reef in the main, which is pretty close to the stock sail area. I would want a light overlapping jib for light conditions. I use a self-tacking jib for day sailing, it allows the boat to be managed with one hand in most conditions. Bruce

[jamez]

Are the GBE cats in that class production boats or customs? We only see a very few of the larger ones here in the US.


Over here there are a mixture of production (glass) and amateur built GBE's - usually from DD ply 2 layers of 4mm if my memory serves me. A bunch of them have been exported over the years. A couple of years ago Malcolm Tennant told me he still occasionally sold a set of plans.

The GBE's racing in the 8.5 class all have bigger rigs and some have hull mods to get more bouyancy forward and a full length waterline, so aren't really 'stock' GBE's anymore. Sam's Capricorn has smoked most of them at one time or another.

[Kalona]

Here is a picture of my Buccaneer 24.

[oldsailor7]

My boat sails quite well with one reef in the main, which is pretty close to the stock sail area. I would want a light overlapping jib for light conditions. I use a self-tacking jib for day sailing, it allows the boat to be managed with one hand in most conditions. Bruce

Bruce.
That pic is very good because it highlights the main bulkhead and shows how Lock arranged the stress paths from the rig, crossarms, centreboard case and (not visible) the water stays, to all come together in the strongest part of the boat, the #4 frame assembly.

I'm not sure I like the "kink" in your crossarms though. You need to replace the joiner plug with a better fitting one. Preferably a close fitting piece of 6061T6 pipe, as in the Buccaneer 28.

On my B.24 we used the wooden plug wrapped in f/glass cloth wetted out with polyester resin. Boatbuilding epoxy as we know it now was not available then. The wood swelled as moisture got in and jammed up the sliding tubes pretty tight. Lubricating with automotive grease helped, but it was a bother when de -mounting for trailering. Metal tubing was a better solution.
If your crossarms were straight you would not need so much tension in your forward waterstays. :D

[bruceb]

Thanks for looking. I suspected the "droop" was not correct, but I did not have anything to compare it to. The wood plugs are loose and the outer arms move some under load. (several inches at the outer end) Sort of feels like an old Hobie 16:) I like Capricorn's solid beams, but for my use I still have to dismount or fold the floats. The fit seems to be a fine line between eliminating movement and getting stuck. I have been sort of suprised at the plugs taking the fore and aft loading as well as they do. If I don't do anything else, I will get some 6061 pipe before I re-assemble it.

[oldsailor7]

Yes Bruce,

In that frontal photo you can clearly see the difference in "Dihedral' between the front and back crossarms.

Restoring the angle will also lift the bows of the floats some, reducing the drag to some extent, when sailing in light airs. :D

[Samnz]

Here is a picture of my Buccaneer 24.

Hey Thanks for posting the picture!

Its a very nice looking Bucc. Do you know what the story is with the cabin bunk tops being lowered? I have thought about doing this so many times to give a bit more space in the cabin!

On my boat I have slats the fit accross the space between the two bunks to make it into a double bed, only problem is then there is nothing downstairs but a bed, but we cook in the cockpit with a boom tent anyway.

[bruceb]

I am interested in your cabin also. I really would like to re-install a cabin on mine and my local rating group may require it. Right now I am getting by calling the forepeak a cabin;) Bruce

[Samnz]

Anyone know anything about this one? It looks pretty highly modified and very quick... I got the photo of the net but couldnt find any info on the boat.

[bruceb]

I think the spire/tower in the background is in Seattle, Washington (state) US. Anybody from the west coast on here? Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Thats one hot looking boat, and I really like the rig.

Is it a trick of the light, or is it possible that one has round bilge hulls. ?? :?:

[Samnz]

Thats one hot looking boat, and I really like the rig.

Is it a trick of the light, or is it possible that one has round bilge hulls. ?? :?:

I dont think its a trick of the light, I think it does have round bilges!

Wouldnt be very difficult to do with some foam blocks, and would add a lot of volume. The transom has also been modified, like Mirandas but a hollow scoop.

[bruceb]

The floats certainly look rounded, I can't quite tell on the main hull but the transom is extended at least a foot with an inboard rudder. It also looks like a small open cuddy cabin. I am going to search sailing club listings in the Seattle area and see if it shows up. Bruce

[bruceb]

Correction- That is Toronto:confused: in the background of your picture samnz. I wonder if it is one of the original four 24's that were built there. (mine is one of them) I have been searching their sailing clubs but no luck so far. Was there any date with the pic posting? Bruce

[oldsailor7]

The mystery deepens. :cool:

That B24s sail #12 denotes the plan was sold in early 1970, or 1969 even.

My B24 was sail#63 and was built in mid 1971.

The CN tower was not completed until 1974-5

Judging by the super modern rig, sugar scoop etc:- I would say that boat is a total renovation ---like Miranda.

[Samnz]

Correction- That is Toronto:confused: in the background of your picture samnz. I wonder if it is one of the original four 24's that were built there. (mine is one of them) I have been searching their sailing clubs but no luck so far. Was there any date with the pic posting? Bruce

No nothing at all, I found the picture many years ago when I was rebuilding mine, trying to find information on the design, I didnt even know what design my boat was when I bought it!

[oldsailor7]

FOUND IT. :D It belongs to a sailor in the Toronto Multihull Cruising Club.

Boat Name: Toy
Skipper:
Design: Crowther Buccaneer 24 (modified)
LOA: 25'

I'll try and find out who the skipper is and get more information.

[lutes1234]

Hello,

I new to this forum, I am a Canadian living on the east coast. I own a 1982 24' Buccaneer Trimaran and currently it needs some TLC (cracking along amas seems and paint). We just had a blizzard of snow yesterday, so sailing is in my dreams and my tractor with a plow is reality right now.

I was looking at another post for plans and oldsailor7 you mention that you had plans, do you still have them for purchase?

My boat, I bought 3 years ago and the previous owner did some modification (made it more comfortable but lessen the overal performance) and has written some articles for the Multihull Magizine. So, I am inspired by you all to gain back some of that performance.

Here are some pics.

Thanks,
Duane

[bruceb]

Duane, That is a nice looking 24- and a completely different direction with the cabin. These boats just keep going. Bruce

[Samnz]

I own a 1982 24' Buccaneer Trimaran and currently it needs some TLC (cracking along amas seems and paint).

Nice boat, the photo looks as though the floats are bigger than standard? maybe its just an illusion. I think mine floats are 6.5m long.

I have found some cracks on my floats but when I grind them back for repair its just the paint, not the ply or glass. I think its caused by the large buildup over the years of paint not flexing as much as the thin ply underneath. I was very happy to find this wasnt structural on my boat!

[rustysunner]

Gents,

Enjoying the conversation very much. May need a set of those plans for the Buccaneer soon myself.

What are the performance differences with longerand,or larer volume amas?

I work and grew up in Seattle and don't recognize that spire at all. (Could be wrong)

Mark I

[oldsailor7]

Duane and Mark 1.

Yes I still have plans.

Go to "Marketplace" thread in these forums and see "24 Ft Trimaran plans for sale".

[Samnz]

Gents,

Enjoying the conversation very much. May need a set of those plans for the Buccaneer soon myself.

What are the performance differences with longerand,or larer volume amas?

I work and grew up in Seattle and don't recognize that spire at all. (Could be wrong)

Mark I

It would be much faster and more seaworthy with the floats stretched to the length of the main hull (7.5m)

The only concern would be if the extra righting moment and weight would overload the beams/structure. Im sure someone on this site could calculate it fairly easy tho!

The other thing is I think it would be more prone to capsize with the bigger floats as they wouldnt sink under and broach the boat out like the smaller floats (same approach Farrier has) when overpowered.

[bruceb]

Mark, I hope my boat knowledge is better than my geography. I moved the Toronto CN tower to Seattle;) Duane, my boat has some of the "checking" that all plywood boats experience- I have several fir ply boats and they all do it if they are not covered in glass or some other fabric. It is usually no problem on vertical surfaces where water doesn't stand. Decks can be an issue, particularly if you have freezing temps in your area. The ice separates the plys rather quickly, and the summer heat peels the boat apart. Epoxy and glass on the decks and paint on the sides seems to work pretty well, with lots of internal ventilation. I just fill and paint the cracks each season. I am interested in the loading and strength of the crossbeams. I need to re-enforce or replace mine, and I don't have a real idea of the forces involved. The 4" ID tube seems over done in compression, but maybe not enough in side loading with the wooden plug connector. Mine have gotten very loose. I have seen the quote from Crowther- "6 times the expected load", but what load do we start with? A little over engineered is ok, I think that is the reason so many of the 24's are still sailing, but new floats/boards/ rigs change things. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

There has been so much interest generated in the Buccaneer 24 over the last very few months that I wonder if it would be of interest to start compiling a register of B24s still in existance---modified or not. New owners are popping into this thread with increasing frequency, so how about it .
Lets hear your opinions.:D

[lutes1234]

That sounds great oldsailor7.

[lutes1234]

I will check my amas for lenght. What is the best way to remove the years of paint (grinding, chemicals, etc)? and, what kind of bottomside paint are you guys using?

Finding this site and forum was Christmas gift, so, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Years to all.

[bruceb]

OS7, A registry would be good, it seems there are a lot of 24's still in use and this forum has been really useful for all of us. Bruce

[Samnz]

There has been so much interest generated in the Buccaneer 24 over the last very few months that I wonder if it would be of interest to start compiling a register of B24s still in existance---modified or not. New owners are popping into this thread with increasing frequency, so how about it .
Lets hear your opinions.:D

I think thats a great idea, whats the easiest way?

[oldsailor7]

AND a Merry Christmas to ALL. :) :) :)

[jamez]

And to you too Paddy :)

Sam, easiest way would be for someone to start a blog or yahoo group.
The Tremolino Group on Yahoo is quite active. Could well have been a similar number of B24's built, and as people have observed previously unknown examples keep turning up (I see a roughie advertised in Multihull world for 5K).

Happy festivities people. I'm hitting the boxing day sales tomorrow - goin power tool huntin' YEEEEHAHH!!!!!!!

[oldsailor7]

We could open a new thread on these forums as a "Read Only" register.
B24 owners posting on this thread could then be transferred to the register with Sail # (if known). Owners name. Boat name and location.

I would volunteer to tabulate this register---but don't think it would be appropriate as I am selling B24 plans and thus could be accused of having a vested interest. :o

[bruceb]

OS7, I would not be offended whom ever ran the registry. If you had not mentioned having the plans, I would not have found this forum:) I am not quite internet savvy enough to do it, but I will be happy to assist any way I can. Bruce

[bruceb]

Samnz, (and any others), What sail selection/sizes are you using? I noticed on one of the videos you had two jibs up, and what wind conditions do they work best in? Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Happy New Year Guys, and good sailing in '09.

Cheers. Paddy. :cool: ;) :D

[oldsailor7]

I got a couple more pics of "Toy", and a bit of info about its mods.
I will be in contact with it's owner and hopefully get more details.

Scott Brown, Commodore of the TMCC says:-"Rick Steeves is the owner of TOY. I'm afraid there's not much BUCC 24 left as he's heavily modified her over the years. She's a really simple, fast boat now, all foam. I recall Rick once explained to me that he cut the bottom off at the waterline and rebuilt it to omit the chines and get a better shape. Several years later he cut the bottom off again but this time he chucked everything ABOVE the waterline and rebuilt her out of foam sheets".

http://www.torontomultihullclub.com/archives/regatta03-b/regatta03-b-Images/0.jpg

http://www.torontomultihullclub.com/archives/regatta03-b/regatta03-b-Images/1.jpg

I suspect the KC12 is not the original number.

[bruceb]

Great pics, OS7, thanks for the research. That is a great looking boat, even if it is now only slightly a Buccaneer. :) It looks like he has "mast" section cross bars, and maybe longer floats as well. It looks like the board exits in front of the mast, I wonder if he moved the mast back as well? I like simple, even if getting there takes more work. I hope Rick joins our forum. Bruce

[zigzag]

Great to see the interest and discussion in Buccaneers. I am getting samples of paulownia plywood WBP glue made for building a buc 24 or 28 stretched. Anyone interested in this strong somewhat rotproof lightweight plywood as I need a largeer order for the factory. One supplier has offered 3mm, 5mm, 9mm 12mm?

[zigzag]

Re: Toy, modified Buc.and elimination of chines. Not a new concept but has anyone tried hi density/ compressive strength, styrodur blue or pink insulation foam epoxy glass sheathed of course to round off chines? The Plywood could be thinner perhaps 3mm?

[oldsailor7]

Re: Toy, modified Buc.and elimination of chines. Not a new concept but has anyone tried hi density/ compressive strength, styrodur blue or pink insulation foam epoxy glass sheathed of course to round off chines? The Plywood could be thinner perhaps 3mm?

Yes.
I did that to my Buccaneer 28 the first winter I had it out of the water.
Found it made no notable difference.
The particular way Crowther arranged the chined bottom is as near as you can get to a rounded hull anyway.
Not worth the extra cost and effort.
http://www.oldpilotsairport.com/display.html?ImageName=buc24threeview

[oldsailor7]

SAMNZ.

Did you get the alternate spade rudder sheet ???

[Samnz]

Yes I did thanks very much for that! Its very interesting!

Iv just got back from my new years cruise to Great Barrier Island :)

[oldsailor7]

Yes I did thanks very much for that! Its very interesting!

Iv just got back from my new years cruise to Great Barrier Island :)

How did it go Sam. How did you find the sleeping arrangements??? :cool:

[Samnz]

How did it go Sam. How did you find the sleeping arrangements??? :cool:

The Sleeping arrangments are awesome, in fact our refined setup gives us the biggest bunk out of the fleet of friends boats of a 8.5m Cat and 7 Keelboats. The toilet/storage is under the superking bed and the galley is in the cockpit under a boom tent, the diningroom/loungebar is on beanbags on the tramps! However you wouldnt want to entertain to many guests as the boat gets pretty low in the water!

[bruceb]

Samnez, That is inspiring, these are all purpose boats:) The matching bean bag is a nice touch. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Sam.
Love that pic of The "Leaping Green Frog" at anchor. It epitomises the relaxing joys of "Gunkholing" type cruising. That shot could just have easily been taken on Pittwater or the Hawksbury over here.
I printed it out scaled up 150% and stood it on my computer desk for inspiration. :D

Just as a matter of curiosity, how did you choose the name "Capricorn". :?:

[oldsailor7]

STOP PRESS. :eek:
Just got this from Ric Steeves.

Hi Pat

Long time, we talked about a Buck 33 way back, eventually built a Harris 38 out of Airex. Anyway went cruising for a while, came back because two teen age kids are expensive, took over Noah’s from David and Neila Coe, and sold the Harris. I am not much for forums, but if you want to put this up please do.

Unfortunately I had allowed myself to become addicted to Multihulls so bought a Buck 24 Main hull, rig and cross arms, no floats, sight unseen. I should have looked. The centerboard box and bottom were pretty well shot so cut it off at the waterline and built a new one with some left over cedar from a previous job. Took out the chine’s, plumbed the bow a bit and flattened the bottom abaft. The Buck 24’s and 33’s I have sailed on have had weather helm so I moved the mast back a bit, the dagger board exits in front.

I built the first float out of cedar strip, but decided it was too heavy so used it as a plug for foam, epoxy, 10 oz glass with Uni S Glass and carbon reinforcing underneath the cross arm mounts. They came out at 105 lbs ea. They are higher displacement than the originals, about 1’ shorter than the main and mount about 1’ forward.

The cross arms were heavy aluminum tubes that had corroded badly so I traded some epoxy with a friend in the rigging business for some broken mast sections, got rid of about 200 lbs of stainless bar dolphin strikers and replaced it with about 25 lbs. of 6mm wire and turnbuckles. All the chain plates are shackles or D rings taped in with Uni S glass or Kevlar.

The original rig was the 30’ cruising version, sail number 12. Sailed with this for a couple of years, OK in a breeze, but needed more HP for light air we get around here. Luckily for me a friend got his C Cat wrecked but the nice light 39’ 3 point rig survived. Kept the running back stays from the original rig. Bought a used suit of sails off a Dragonfly, the main was about 5’ short but a definite improvement.

By this time the main hull and bulkheads were getting scary as cracks and plain old rot was catching up to the original cheap plywood. Anyway cut the top off at the waterline and kept the 2 main bulkheads for mould stations, bent some battens around until the shape looked right, then stapled 9mm Corecell to the battens. Glassed with 12oz DB and epoxy, pulled the mould and installed foam bulkheads under the cross arms. Made the deck, cuddy, cockpit and floors out of 18mm Corecell and the same 12 oz DB. No head (keeps the wife off), interior or other amenities, strictly a day sailor, although I have slept in the nets. Total weight of the boat with rig is 850 lbs. As a concession to the original Buccaneer 24 I have kept a piece of plywood about 8” x 12” embedded in the transom and the running backstays.

After all this I decided to blow the bundle on a decent (Dacron) main, jib and screecher as well as a carbon board.

This made a noticeable improvement in performance. The boat sails very well in light winds because of low weight and large sail area, also goes like stink in a breeze flying the main hull. Limiting factor is the rudder coming out. Next project may be rudders in the floats. Have a hard time beating a F25 C and an F 25 R in moderate wind, think I need to break down on a really good set of sails.

This has evolved over about 15 years, usually from whatever materials happen to be available at the time. Definitely not an off shore boat but all things considered it has been a lot of fun for very little money.

Ric Steeves

www.noahsmarine.com

[Phildave]

Trying to organize materials to build the B24. Anyone have thoughts or heard of using Hobie mast and sails?

[bruceb]

I think there is a lot to learn from Ric's boat :cool: Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Trying to organize materials to build the B24. Anyone have thoughts or heard of using Hobie mast and sails?

I think you will find that the Hobie rig and sails are not up to the task of resisting the righting power of the 20' wide tri, and will not last long.

If you prowl the boatyards and sailboat brokers--read all the want ads in sailing mags and newspapers, ask at the yacht clubs, advertise for same in local papers and mags ----you will find that there are all sorts of masts, booms rigging and sails available at giveaway prices, which approximate to, or can be re-cut to, the specs given in the Buc 24 plans.

Also:- LEE Sails of Hong Kong have the Buccaneer 24 sail set in their files, and (for now at least) you only need the Main and Jib to start with.

[bruceb]

Phildave, A hobie 18 rig is almost as tall as the "standard" buc 24 rig, but is a much lighter weight spar than the buc was designed with. I have several in my back yard- the mast strength would seem to be marginal for the righting moment of the tri. I have built one rig using an H-18 section with the carbon fiber extension on top of the stock 28' spar (about 35" overall) on a light 23' monohull. It was very bendy, but with enough stays it is still standing:!: The stock hobie sails are a little light for a buc also, I think I would try to find a spar that was more suited to the Buc 24. Bruce

[Phildave]

Thanks for the advice about using the Hobie masts. The problem here in the Philippines provinces is that there are no used masts, sails, or rigging of any kind to be found. Anything metal has to be shipped in. Occasionally, I here of a Hobie mast or parts up in Manila.

[oldsailor7]

Thanks for the advice about using the Hobie masts. The problem here in the Philippines provinces is that there are no used masts, sails, or rigging of any kind to be found. Anything metal has to be shipped in. Occasionally, I here of a Hobie mast or parts up in Manila.

In that case why don't you build your own mast and boom from standard 6061T6 alloy tubing as detailed in the plans.

We did --and it worked fine. :D

Teardrop sections and rotating masts, together with the expensive fittings for controlling and staying them are not necessary, unless you are going to be using the boat for dedicated racing.

[bruceb]

A wooden or ply/composite mast is still probably the least expensive way to get on the water. The Philippines used to produce some very good quality wooden spars, some of which are still in use in the US. Properly designed, it would be light and plenty strong if you don't mind some added labor. Standing rigging can be adapted from some "stock" shrouds and low stretch line for the adjusters. Crossbeams can also be ply, many tris are, I think the 6061 was used mostly for ease of construction and dismounting. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
You are right of course.

I had a Piver 'Nugget" which had wooden mast and crossbeams.
I sailed it happily for four years without any problems.

Cruising of course. But pleasurable FAST cruising.

If you want a small tri for serious racing, then you need a deep pocket and something like a Corsair/Farrier.

I crew on a friends Corsair 28R. With a sister ship it was the boat to beat. That is until this season when the Tony Grainger Cats came along. Lol.

A Corsair 28R costs AUD$136,000.00 +

Go figure. !!!

[bruceb]

I see people "restoring" fiberglass boats newer than my buc 24, I am not sure what that says about me or my boat. (relic?:( ) Wood still works, and with modern sail and foil materials and design, our old boats are not that far behind the latest carbon fiber/unobtainuim creations. I long ago learned that someone could always out spend me in the quest for speed, in boats, cars, and airplanes- but so what, I am having fun! I think Crowther really got the basics right, whether it was tank testing or seat of the pants, the boats do work, and are very responsive to modern rig and material upgrades. I feel very lucky to have found one, and would still consider building a new one a reasonable choice. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

I don't appear to have posted the three view of the original BUccaneer 24 on this thread. So here it is.
It is best printed out "Landscape" and scaled up 140% to fit on an A4 page.
http://www.oldpilotsairport.com/display.html?ImageName=buc24threeview

[Samnz]

Samnz, (and any others), What sail selection/sizes are you using? I noticed on one of the videos you had two jibs up, and what wind conditions do they work best in? Bruce

Hi Bruce
I have a kevlar Magic 25 jib, which is 15m2. This used to be my number one but I moved the forestay to the stem so got a new 17m2 kevlar non overlapping Jib so the Magic Jib is now my No 2. I would love to run an overlapper but it sheets too wide around the spreaders and going higher but slightly slower is great in W/L racing burning much faster boats of the startline is fun plus VMG is the same as low and fast. My new Jib cars are halfway from the centreline of the boat to the edge of the cabin.

My main is a norths carbon squarehead, approx 27m2. The rig is a bit soft for this sail but it still works ok. Great sail but it sends the bow down very quickly if your not carefull.

I have a fractional Gennaker (not sure on the size) for reaching and when its blowing over 25 knots, and a masthead 75m2 gennaker for up to 25 knots of breeze.

I have tryd a few different reacher setups, the one in the vid you mention (two Jibs) was masthead on the old rig, but didnt fit the new rig and I think masthead would be load up the mast too much so I will be getting a new furling fractional reacher, that will tack to halfway out the prod. Will aim for about 30m2 for this sail, and will use it anywhere from 55 true to 140 true depending on the breeze (50 true in under 10 knots of breeze thru to 140 true in over 30 knots). If I get this sail right hopefully I can ditch the Frac gennaker alltogether.

Next sail on the list after the reacher is an even bigger masthead gennaker as some of the big cats still have a slight edge on me VMG downwind in the light which is annoying me! Might increase the prod from 2m to 3m long...

Whats your sail setup?

[oldsailor7]

Samnz said:- "Might increase the prod from 2m to 3m long..."

Sam --If you do that you will increase the vertical component of the new sails force, which will help to lift the bow, or at least help to negate the bow depressing moment of the tall mainsail.

Some of the sailors here, with tall rigs, are reefing their mains and flying their biggest foresails on downwind courses in windy conditions.
Nat Herreshoff, 140 yrs ago, had long prodders on his Cats which made our present day prodders look like matchsticks. :eek:

[oldsailor7]

Herewith the promise of the B24s building instructions.
As before, you can print them down "Portrait" at A4 size, and be able to read them.
Sorry for the line thru them, it must be from a speck of dirt on the rollers. :o
The actual sheets with the plans are clearer than that---but you get the general Idea. :)


www.oldpilotsairport.com/buccaneer24_instructions_p1.jpg


www.oldpilotsairport.com/buccaneer24_instructions_p2.jpg


www.oldpilotsairport.com/buccaneer24_instructions_p3.jpg

[bruceb]

Thanks for the posts. With Sam's sail sizes, I see why he can stay with the "fast" cats. I am also impressed that his crew will go out on a windy day:) I am taking some complete measurements of my boat/sails and will try to post them by next week. I did not have a masthead halyard last season, so my sails were limited to forestay height. I really need the big Gennaker and prod. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
If you are going to really big sail sizes, like Sams tri, then you are going to have to cover your cockpit, judging by the amount of water coming over the boat in Sams video.
Admittedly--rough water. :eek:
Perhaps you sail in smoother water. :)
A nice little streamlined cuddy --like that on "Toy" would do. :D

[bruceb]

And tearing up $100 bills- we are sailors aren't we? Os7, you are right, a cabin or cuddy will help, and I want one anyway. My boat doesn't seem to be "quite" as wet as Capricorn, but I am not going as fast yet, and I am in smaller waves. I also keep the crew sitting in front of me:D The wider foredeck on my boat also deflects some of the water climbing the bow. I may just put a canvas dodger on for this season and plan a cabin/crossbeam project for next winter. This season it is just the basics and some new sails, I don't want to miss spring sailing here. Our wind runs out around June. In another area, how do tri's attach the inboard end of the prod? I don't have anything around here to look at or copy. Any pics or details would be very helpful. Bruce

[Samnz]

In another area, how do tri's attach the inboard end of the prod? I don't have anything around here to look at or copy. Any pics or details would be very helpful. Bruce

Theres a lot of ways of doing it but on my boat I cut a hole with a hole saw about 50mm around into the stem about 40mm, inserted a carbon tube 200mm long into it (piece of windsurfer mast) and glued, glassed and Carboned it onto the stem. The aluminium Prod Slides over this. Pretty simple.

I built a carbon Bow roller into it which was a lot of mucking around and then it got smashed of in a storm on the mooring...

I think a rotating prod could be good for VMG running, especially in light breeze.

[Samnz]

Photos from recent Bay Of Islands race week.

A 11m Cat dipping (I was on stbd) me hit the corner of the float, luckily it was a foam extension so no stuctural damage and I could finish the event. Its being fixed by the helmsman of the Cat right now...

[oldsailor7]

Great shots of Capricorn, Sam.

A real source of inspiration to all other B24 builders and sailors. :D

[bruceb]

I hope Capricorn is back complete soon:) I have some rig measurements from my buc 24- "Pigs Fly". The former owner of my boat added a tall mast, but since he single handed most of the time the sails are very modest sized compared to Sam's green monster:rolleyes: I am getting new sails this season, but the main is going to have to wait (it was a stock Stiletto 27 main). Basic rig; J-2.59m, jib hoist-9m, main hoist 10.21m, E-2.9m (boomless main), and I used the bow eye for the gennaker. Masthead is 13.97m from the waterline. My self-tacking jib is 8.8m, the main is about 18m, and I borrowed a larger jib around 14.5m sheeted to about 8 degrees for light air. I did not have a masthead spinnaker halyard and used a 37m gennaker. It is cut too full for a fast boat and is not very useful. Boat speed and pointing was ok in light to medium conditions that I sailed in, I was not going fast enough reaching. I am sure the new gennakers and prod will make a real difference as soon as I am up to handling them. I have a lot to learn:!: Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Good Onya Bruce.
Way to go. :D

[Samnz]

I am sure the new gennakers and prod will make a real difference as soon as I am up to handling them. I have a lot to learn:!: Bruce

Mnn well I have been a bowman on skiffs, sports boats and keelboats, so have done a fair bit of kite work, and the gennaker work on a small tri is quite different.

1. Hoisting, bear away flat off, pull the haliyard till its at the very top of the mast then pull the tack out.

2. Dropping, bear away flat off, let the tack out when the whole foot is gathered in let the haliyard out.

Obviously do both as quick as possible but if you dont sail flat off the foot will go under the float, and if you pull the tack before the haliyard (like on a keelboat) on the way up, or drop the kite haliyard before the tack is in (like a sports boat) the tack/foot will get sucked straight under the beam and its all over!

Keep to 2 easy rules and you cant go wrong ever, in any conditions, dont and you will break the prod, mast or just trawl/tear the gennaker and lose the race.

[bruceb]

Thanks! I know I almost ran over my small gennaker on a take down and I couldn't tell what I was doing wrong. I was trying to do it like a keel boat- tri experience does matter. This might have saved me from a real problem. Bruce

[bruceb]

Samnz, do you sheet the big gennaker inside of the shrouds? Bruce

[Samnz]

Samnz, do you sheet the big gennaker inside of the shrouds? Bruce
No both gennakers sheet around the outside of the side stays. The reacher sheets inside to an adjustable bridle between the cabintop and the float.

[jetstreamer1961]

Hi folks I am a new member..I own buccaneer #122 and I am kicking around the idea of building a wing mast...Can anyone help me out with some good information?? Thanx..Jeff

[bruceb]

Hi, welcome to the forum. I have #151, probably very similar to your buc 24. Is your boat still mostly stock? Bruce

[Samnz]

Hi folks I am a new member..I own buccaneer #122 and I am kicking around the idea of building a wing mast...Can anyone help me out with some good information?? Thanx..Jeff

Hi Jeff, nice Bucc, you race it?

Hopefully CoxCreek will read this and post, he has built a lot of wing masts out of 3mm ply, foam and some carbon reinforcement.

Hey Bruce I just did the 8.5 Multihull nationals over here and was doing really well beating a lot of hotted up GBEs and a Kurt Hughes 7.5 on line but in the 5th race of 8 my aluminium rudder case sheared in half and twisted the top gudgeon off... not ideal. The gps top speed was however 22.2 knots, 2.3 knots higher than any other top speed Iv had...

[Samnz]

I just downloaded my GPS track and top speed has come up as 20.7 knots, sometimes they seem to jump satelites and give bogus reading but it smooths the track out on GPSAR and gives averages so 20.7 is a true reading.

5 bests' average = 33.13km/h [17.89Knots]
Best Speed n°1 = 38.34km/h [20.7Knots] (106.5 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°2 = 32.66km/h [17.64Knots] (90.7 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°3 = 31.96km/h [17.26Knots] (88.8 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°4 = 31.4km/h [16.95Knots] (87.2 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°5 = 31.29km/h [16.9Knots] (86.9 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°6 = 30.52km/h [16.48Knots] (84.8 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°7 = 30.26km/h [16.34Knots] (84.1 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°8 = 30.22km/h [16.32Knots] (84.0 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°9 = 30.17km/h [16.29Knots] (83.8 meters in 10.0 sec.)
Best Speed n°10 = 30.1km/h [16.25Knots] (83.6 meters in 10.0 sec.)

5 best 50 meter (at least) average = 33.13km/h [17.89Knots]
50 meter run n°1 = 38.34km/h [20.7Knots] (106.5 m. in 10.0 s.)
50 meter run n°2 = 32.66km/h [17.64Knots] (90.7 m. in 10.0 s.)
50 meter run n°3 = 31.96km/h [17.26Knots] (88.8 m. in 10.0 s.)
50 meter run n°4 = 31.4km/h [16.95Knots] (87.2 m. in 10.0 s.)
50 meter run n°5 = 31.29km/h [16.9Knots] (86.9 m. in 10.0 s.)

5 best 2 second (at least) average = 33.13km/h [17.89Knots]
2 second run n°1 = 38.34km/h [20.7Knots] (106.5 m. in 10.0 s.)
2 second run n°2 = 32.66km/h [17.64Knots] (90.7 m. in 10.0 s.)
2 second run n°3 = 31.96km/h [17.26Knots] (88.8 m. in 10.0 s.)
2 second run n°4 = 31.4km/h [16.95Knots] (87.2 m. in 10.0 s.)
2 second run n°5 = 31.29km/h [16.9Knots] (86.9 m. in 10.0 s.)

5 best 5 second (at least) average = 33.13km/h [17.89Knots]
5 second run n°1 = 38.34km/h [20.7Knots] (106.5 m. in 10.0 s.)
5 second run n°2 = 32.66km/h [17.64Knots] (90.7 m. in 10.0 s.)
5 second run n°3 = 31.96km/h [17.26Knots] (88.8 m. in 10.0 s.)
5 second run n°4 = 31.4km/h [16.95Knots] (87.2 m. in 10.0 s.)
5 second run n°5 = 31.29km/h [16.9Knots] (86.9 m. in 10.0 s.)

[bruceb]

Samnz, That is quite an inspiration, (and challenge):cool: 20kts plus in a 24'tri is very fast. - sorry about the rudder:( Did the side plates fail? I haven't made my rudder head yet partly because I did not know how thick to make them. Bruce

[jetstreamer1961]

Hi, welcome to the forum. I have #151, probably very similar to your buc 24. Is your boat still mostly stock? Bruce

Yes, the boat is completely stock..My sailing partner built it in the 80's and really did'nt sail it much due to his health...I have been sailing it around Milwaukee - Lake michigan area for the last two seasons..We are avid iceboaters and we can see the great performance that wing masts offer those boats...I just discovered this thread and it is nice to see some folks talkin' about the old buccaneers....My friend that sails a Malcom Tenant design (i don't know the exact spellingof that name) has a fancy wing mast rig and he can blow me away in higher winds, but suprisingly, can't pass me up in the lighter winds...

[Gary Baigent]

Jetstreamer
This stuff has been posted here before - but here are some images anyway. The last one is of two 6.5 metre unstayed wing masts for a planing skiff. These have been built with an alloy tube in the mid section with reinforcing at base. The others can be built in tensioned ply or foam sandwich with I beams and cutout light frames with carbon reinforcing. Flash Harry's 9 metre mast is now almost 30 years old and still going strong, despite some brutality from sailing conditions and the owner.

[jetstreamer1961]

Thanx

[jetstreamer1961]

I will be sure to peruse the rest of this fine forum for some more info on this subject!

[bruceb]

Thanks Gary:) About what was the finished weight of Harry's spar? Bruce

[Gary Baigent]

hi Bruce
Flash Harry's rig is light, built with 4mm ply I beam and cutout frames, skinned in 3mm ply with a thin kauri or kahikatea strip at leading and trailing edges, with 10mm inside diameter alloy track glued and glassed to trailing strip for sail luff. The hounds are unidirectional glass and carbon laid diagonally upwards (in line with forestay angle) around the wing to the thickest section, drilled with basic shackle to hold rigging. Wing mast weighs approximately 20 kgs with all rigging, running and standing, easy to pick up and to mount. The mast bearing is wood core with multiple layers of glass, ball and socket setup - this simple, light cup and bearing has lasted the course well. However you have to ignore the cracking and banging coming from the bearing in fresh, gusting winds, it's just noise, no problems result from it - the lubricant gets washed away eventually and the glass on glass can stick a little. A slightly stiff bearing is preferable than a too easily moving one, you don't want the wing to flap about. The mast spanner is wood, glassed and carboned and is controlled by simple two part rope purchase to cam cleats.

[bruceb]

Gary, that is really light, and it has stood the real world test:) Thanks for the details. Is it covered in any glass or carbon? Bruce

[Gary Baigent]

hi Bruce
The leading and trailing edges are glassed with one layer 6oz box weave and there are a few metres of strip carbon uni-directional running up and down halfway between hounds and mast base. This is epoxied at the mast's thickest section, two layers where the bending loads are greatest. However most of the mast is just epoxy and paint coated.

[bruceb]

That makes our alloy spars look pretty heavy and over-kill, I know I have about 50kg with my spar, wires and roller furler. That is about 6-7% of my boat's weight, all up in the air:( Does Flash Harry use a jib or reacher? Also, in the pictures, the front of the mast looks straight and the rear tapered, is that normal for a wing mast and/or am I imagining it? Bruce

[Gary Baigent]

hey Bruce
That is 20 kgs, not lbs. mate. Actually I was being conservative, it is probably lighter than that. But remember Flash Harry is also a very light boat, lighter than an A Class, therefore the mast does not have to handle high loads. Boat carries no headsails, but uses a reacher for off wind sailing.
At the moment I'm making some much needed changes: the half wishbone boom and vang are going and a lighter conventional boom to be fitted plus a semi circular main sheet track for decent vang control.
The straight up leading edge and curved above hounds luff is just an aesthetic thing on my part - but it does reduce sail twist-off at the top a little and flattens that area too. I've built three wing masts with the opposite (more conventional) design too. IMO, not as attractive. Remember those early C Class English catenary wing designs like Thunder, Manta and Lady Helmsman, also Thompson's later foiler Sebago - they all still look good to me.

[bruceb]

Gary, Harry's mast does look "right". I have been trying to guess what your boom was in the pictures:confused: Thanks! I once tried a full wishbone on a hobie 16 rig and I still couldn't get enough leach tension without everything getting way too heavy and complicated. The USA is still a little? behind the rest of the world, and here in the southern US, we definitely have not "metricated":D but I do try to convert all my posts to metric. Most of the time it works;) Bruce

[Gary Baigent]

Mistake on my part, the C Class cats Thunder and Manta did NOT have catenary luff shapes, in fact they were both straight luffs- but a number of the MacAlpine-Downie C's did, as did Sebago and and that superb Spirit of Apricot. The idea of reducing sail area through having a deeply curved luff and larger wing mast area seems to have fallen from of favour, but still a good design concept IMO. Supplejack's first wing was this shape, although that mast was too heavily constructed and made the boat pitch. You can just see the slight outward curve near the base in the jpeg.

[bruceb]

I think we were still carving trees fresh from the forest when you were building well developed wing masts. Is there an easy way to cut the individual sized frames for the tapered sections? Bruce

[Samnz]

Finally sorted out my old computer and found these, not sure what the Cad drawing I dont have Cad anymore so cant open it... hoping its one of my drawings for the new beams I made...

[bruceb]

Thanks Samnz, the drawing opened fine with a free program from autodesk. Those beams certainly up-dated the 24. Do you know the lay-up that was used? How did your rudder problem/repair go? Bruce

[ThomD]

Thanks for posting the Beam info, Samnz. The boat looks great. There is some scantling info back on page 6 of this thread:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22-24-trimaran-23449-6.html

Even more info would be better. Those beams are wild light. Anything I have seen by name designers is probably about 2-3 times that in wall section. Say a Newick Tremolino, or Horizon.

[ThomD]

Speaking of wing spars, I have always been struck by the one the Gougeons built for a Searunner 25 that used just paper core between really thin aircraft ply all bagged into a teardrop shape in a single step. It lasted great, and makes use neither of lots of stringers and bulkheads, or really expensive lam schedules in carbon. More broadly it means there are any other number of cored masts that could equally be constructed using whatever core options people prefer. Hardly a surpise when one considers the number of different options that exist for beams. I know my own head was locked in a box by the fact that the Gougeon stresskin/carbon plans were out there and seemed to imply simpler options wouldn't work. I'm sure many others have made such spars in cedar etc... are there good threads on these kinds of options, and scantlings?

[Samnz]

Thanks for posting the Beam info, Samnz. The boat looks great. There is some scantling info back on page 6 of this thread:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22-24-trimaran-23449-6.html

Even more info would be better. Those beams are wild light. Anything I have seen by name designers is probably about 2-3 times that in wall section. Say a Newick Tremolino, or Horizon.

In retrospect they are very light, we were going to make them just one layer of 4mm ply all around with a layer of 10oz boat cloth but (happily) decided to beef them up a bit. Any chance you can post some scantlings you mention?

They are very stiff but im not sure how close to breaking they are... I have thought about foils or making the flots higher volume but dont think this is safe without reinforcing the beams. Question I have is where/how would they break so where would the reinforcing be needed....

[ThomD]

I can dig up some scantlings, after I dig out some plans. My 24 footer is so fine in the main hull that I was told it wouldn't support the weight of unstayed beams. The stayed beams it has are very similar to the ones on the Buc, with slightly less diameter, and slightly more wall thickness over 18.5' beam. I will see what I have, all by very major designers, but I may not mention names since I am not sure how I feel about publishing scantlings for plans that are all still being sold as far as I know. I think I have about 5 unstayed beams worth.

Your beams look good and yet are really large in section. Since strength goes up to the square, and stiffness to the cube, you may be doing better than my guess. The windage doesn't seem to be killing your boat's performance... :) Conventionally you could have used some ribbing in the vertical segments that would have created a truss effect with the nailing flanges. That would have given effectiveness near that of having the flanges be solid. So if you have 3/4" flanges and add appropriate truss segments to hold them apart, you get an effect like nearly solid 1" beams, for and aft for the sake of a few more feet of stringer. At least that is what I understand the engineers to be saying. Further, if the tops of the beam rather than being plywood with the veneer run-out problems therein, and the 30-40 percent transverse fiber, were say 8mm strip with the glass you speced, that might also be a step forward.

One other detail I wonder about is what would happen if one epoxy bedded cable in a groove in the nailing flange. There are trusses built that way as elaborated by the Gougeons in an epoxyworks article, and as they use in their strongbacks. For relatively low additional weight one could be loading up some cable. Not sure that would be all that useful because it might not get loaded before the surface had ruptured. Always wanted to try it though.

I will dig around tonight.

[ThomD]

So here are the first few scantlings from a very famous designer. The boat is about 24'x17'. The beams are either 6.5" aluminum with 3/16" wall, 6061-T6. or they are 5.5 square in quality timber, with top caps of 27 mm, sidewalls of 18 mm.

The third beams come from Funky Tri, as built by Jan Gougeon and JR Watson in 1973. The beam dimensions are not given but they look to be 6" x 3", and the walls are described as 3/4". The article I have says these beams are unsupported by wires or struts, though there appear to be wires in the accompanying photos. Funky Tri was 25' x 14'. I made a serious effort to visit her, but the owner was always aboard her on trips to the Florida Keys, and didn't seem interested in making contact. Possibly the simplest trailerable tri ever built.

The fourth example really doesn't count because it had wingdecks right out to the floats. The separation was 11 inches at the main hull to about 8 inches at the floats, with 3/8" plywood in deck surfaces and bulkheads and with nailers of 3/4" stock.

OK, I have two other examples, but they may take a little longer to find. More to come.

[Samnz]

So here are the first few scantlings from a very famous designer. The boat is about 24'x17'. The beams are either 6.5" aluminum with 3/16" wall, 6061-T6. or they are 5.5 square in quality timber, with top caps of 27 mm, sidewalls of 18 mm.


Uh... so its only 17' wide and has 27mm caps, compaired to my 8mm and 18mm walls compaired to my 4mm....

That scares me a little bit :eek:

do you mean 5.5" by 5.5" or?

[ThomD]

Right, 5.5" x5.5" So on the scale thing your greater dimension would be more than 2x stronger, and more than 3 times stiffer. But your walls are a lot thinner which would scale that back down to something weaker overall. So it possibly comes down to a mater of how heavily used the boat it. Even mooring can have a wearing effect.

By caps I mean the top and bottom of the beam are solid D-fir of 27mm, and the sidewalls are solid 18mm. Plus glass, paint etc... It is a solid box beam without stringer etc... A fat wooden tube. It also tapers in the normal way. Each beam weighs about 30 kg at the lightest.

[bruceb]

Sam and Thomd, I have been following this tread with great interest- sooner or later, I want to replace my beams too. I think Capricorn's beams scare me some, but by my very crude calculations, they are a little stronger than Crowther's original design. The 1/2" bolts in shear on the water stays are the limiting factor on the Buc 24s design- and the 2.5" (5/16x 8") cross section of the top and bottom plates of Sam's beams seem to be about 20% stronger (front beam) . I think if they failed, it would be from the sides distorting first?? That does not take in to account dynamic loads, but I think Capricorn has been "tested" hard and fast:). I am really interested in any other scantings that anybody can produce, the only boats I have near me are production Corsairs and they are very heavy solid glass and use water braces. Bruce

[ThomD]

Ok, so these are the last scantlings for 24' tri beams.

I heard from a guy who sailed one of the earliest versions of this tri down to Baja that the front beams were made out of a 4x4. In the old days the haircut on a 4x4 was more like 0-1/8" than the current half inch, and back in the 50s or 60s, on the west coast, one could find wood that today might not be out of place on a guitar. So keep that in mind as to quality and size.

A famous designer's kid, told me his 24 foot cruising tri, had a pair of 2x6s up front, and a single 2x6 in the back. This would be not that long ago when a 2x6 was 1.5x5.5.

Both of the above boats probably had classical beam of 66% at best.

My last contribution is for the beams on a rugged cruising tri with fixed, separate, fore and aft beams. These were triangular "boxes" with the the truss being 12" high at the wings, and 6" inches at the amas. I think the web was 3/8" ply. There were three stringers stacked at the top and the bottom of the truss, each 3/4" square, six stringers total. This truss would hold the major loads, and was further structured as part of a triangular plywood tube. the opposite side was 12" at the root, as mentioned, the hypotenuse was 19", and the adjacent side was whatever it would be. The leading edge where the hyp. and the adj. met had two stacked stringers of 1/2" x 2". Because of the acute angle a fair amount of that material got planed out. The rear beam was similar but 9" high at the root, and 5.5" high at the ama. I don't recall, but I think the non truss sides of the triangle were 1/4" ply, I have video somewhere. The key thing here is that the major loads are carried by the stringers/longerons (the distribution of these could be better. As a result the ply on all three side is transverse grain orientation. The box is stiffer if the fiber takes the shortest distance. It's like a footbridge, the decking is hung from side to side, there wouldn't be much point in the rest of the bridge if the boards you walked on each hopped the span from one side to the other. Or so the story of these beams goes.

Now if you want some insight into how beams get designed, consider that the 4x4 beams, and the hollow wood beams in the earlier post, both have the same cross sectional area to them. By one calc (depends what 4x4 means and how weight was moved around longi wise) they both come out at 16 square inches. Not saying, but that kind of coincidence comes up all the time when one review design work. (The 2x6 beams are 16.5 inches). Designer B comes along, looks at the existing field, and simply reconfigures the original weight budget to do a better job. Cuts down on all the structural analysis back chat. I call that managing the structural problem. No numbers needed. Structure A worked and Structure B is a better distribution of material, but harder to build, no problem. Designer A and Designer B are probably the two biggest names in american tris, yet somehow they landed on the same square. Presumably extensive strutural analysis in a lab somewhere. Capricorn"s beams have approx 7.4 square inches in them at max section. So that is kinda in the great leap forward catagory of scantling.

[ThomD]

Bruce B, I'm not capable of doing the calcs, but I'm a little surprised at what they tell you about a wire and tube beam. The big problem with wire and tube beams is that they are pretty directional, and we also all know rigging fails catastrophically more often than, say, hulls. So there are problems with that kind of structure, but I thought the strength of the wire/shackle was pretty much the least of our worries. so far I haven't seen a version of this with spectra. That would be interesting, since it could be home maintained more easily than rolled fittings.

[bruceb]

Thanks ThomD. Crowther's design uses a stainless strap for the waterstay instead of wire, but the thought is the same. The attaching bolts or pins are subject to failure and the inner pipe joint gets very loose after a while. They are also heavy, one of my 19'x 4.5" aluminum cross beams, waterstays and hardware weighs about 90 lbs and is not very good at locating the float. I am sure 90 lbs of wood and glass would make a very strong beam and not need the waterstays. I imagine that there are some designers watching this thread and our seat of the pants attempts at beam design:confused:, one side guessing that we will turn our old plywood box boats into toothpicks, and the others thinking that they can save some weight in their next design:) Sam's Capricorn coming off a wave at 20+kts certainly is doing some real world testing. Thanks for the scanting info, that gives me somewhere to start. Bruce

[ThomD]

The system on my KHSD is lighter. It uses 4.5" tubes with 1/8" walls. There are chainplates through the boat that are pretty stout. The load goes to a shackle, that is rolled to a 3/16" wire that is rolled to a J hook that can be engaged with the tube through a flush to the outside fitting. My boat has curved 1/4" main hull, and 3/16" floats. This system is probably the lightest out there and would adapt to the Buc. It allows the tubes to be simply inserted through the boat, though I think a half tube method as on the Buc has a lot to recomend it. I thought the Buc was similar, I guess I superimposed my system onto the plans. Kurt has this system on boats up to 30 feet in beam, and possibly larger.

It's unlikely capricorn gets anything like the cycles that would indicate it is reliable for the kinds of redundancies one wants in an average design. I find it an exciting scantling because it has worked so far, and there are lots of boats on moorings being raced weekly that can use this kind of thing. A lot of our summer weather up here has very light winds. I would just make these beams for a Buc right away if I had one. It would be very cool on a boat like Toy. I think I would make the caps out of DF linear, and the walls out of 1/4".

"I imagine that there are some designers watching this thread and our seat of the pants attempts at beam design,"

As I mentioned above, when one starts to study the masterpieces of the past, they often look one part Hereshoff, 1 part marine curves, and one part Piver scantlings.

[bruceb]

Thanks Thom, I had wondered what size wire your boat used in the waterstays. ( You have a 23?) I think PBO or other synthetic would be even better, but I have a roll swedge machine and lots of wire:) if I go that way. I think you are right on the beams for my 24, and I think I need a set soon. I am still trying to make my boat fold, probably not a complete system like the corsairs, but some arms/stays that would speed the process up and allow one person to do it and still not add much weight. My boat takes two people about 2-2 1/2hrs to set up or take down, and it is a pretty busy 2 hrs. I have been making models all winter, but I am not satisfied yet:mad: Bruce

[ThomD]

"Thanks Thom, I had wondered what size wire your boat used in the waterstays. ( You have a 23?)"

Right, it is sort a 24 because it is made out of 24' panels minus a few inches at the edges where the vac pressure isn't perfect. But then more material is added back in the bow and stern.

The rule of thumb seems to be the stays are one size larger than the rigging wire (yeah, I know, eyes are rolling out there), but in fact my wires are 1/8", the stays are 3/16". 3/16" wires, and 1/4" stays. That tended to be what I saw in surveys. And obviously they are related. If one put enough rig on my boat to demand 3/16" wires, it would at least be wise to design the waterstays with it in mind that the loading on the beams could also go up.


" I think PBO or other synthetic would be even better, but I have a roll swedge machine and lots of wire"

Pushing green with envy button...

[Samnz]

The system on my KHSD is lighter.

Not very stiff however....



It's unlikely capricorn gets anything like the cycles that would indicate it is reliable for the kinds of redundancies one wants in an average design.


And you think the alloy tube and wire setup is?

The Hughs 23 over here I race against has the standard alloy beam and tube setup and it has caused him a fair few issues allready...

In saying that I do like the hughs beam setup because its so easy and cheap to build!

[Samnz]

so far I haven't seen a version of this with spectra.

The Hughs 23 or 24 or whatever it is, here in Auckland used 5mm dynex when the 5mm ss wires broke in a storm, (while on a mooring) and it was (as expected) hopeless, as the creep is far to much for this application, pbo would be the only way to do it in synthetics and you'd have to replace it every year or two at most so would just be a pain I think...

I think the Seacart 30 uses 8mm stainless wire or rod, not PBO just to put it into perspective!

[bruceb]

I weighed the stainless straps & hardware off my Buc 24 and compared it to 3/8 wire and ends- the total weight saved for all 4 was about 18 lbs. I thought there would be a greater difference, it looks as if Crowther kind of knew what he was doing:) I don't think the straps would ever fail, but the joint in the tubes is way too flexible. Materials and design have gotten so much better in the last 40 years that a well engineered composite beam is the way to go. I had an engineer friend look at capricorn's beam design, the quick answer (which I hope he will improve on) was as long as the attach points to the inner and outer hulls are proper, the web (sides) in the middle would be the first point of failure. We are still guessing at the total loads to put in the computer. For what ever that is worth? The deck/crossbeam attachment on the float is weakest point on the stock design, and gets worse with a little rot, like I found in my boat:( Easy enough to fix though, and it was still holding up after 30 years. Bruce

[ThomD]

The webs are the weak point. There are a lot of ways of improving on that, orient fiber 90 degrees; use a few bits of stringer to tie together the flanges, that's massive; increase the dimension, 1/4" would be a large improvement, keeping in mind the competition are using 3/4", use some bulkheads. Doing all the above wouldn't be the way to go, since some of them try to achieve the same thing, and it would be better to choose.

Did you mean to say 3/8" wire? That is massive. Mine are 3/16", and that should (WAG) be for a a beam that is way stronger than Capricorn (no criticism, but Cap is like 1/3rd standard scant., whereas mine was designed for offshor standard sort of loads, though probably never see that in most cases). Also 18 pounds in the 8" width of Cap. beams is enough to apply about 96 feet of 3mm ply to your favorite charity, and if one compares to 3/16 wire weight the additional fiber would be more.

It is important to separate whether the beams are stayed or not. Stayed beams operate more with compresion and the "other" loads are more fore and aft. So my preference would be more box beams with uniform wall structure, and more beam width than height. We already have lots of examples of unstayed beams in the thread.

I am currently struggling with good methods to attach beams to floats. The project I have in mind for the moment works, right up to that point. Past experience makes me leary of beams that slide into sockets. Bolts can look crude, though I am open to a good version of that approach. I rally need something game changing to keep me from flying into the candle flame of a folding system with all that cost, weight, etc...

[bruceb]

I weighed some 3/8 wire and ends because I had a piece about the right length, but I think 1/4 inch would not change but about 1 1/2 lbs a stay. I still tend to over build, I am used to lead draggers:) The stock Buc 24's tubes are loaded in compression and some shear at the inner connection, the outer end is rigidly fastened to the float. A little heavy and flexible, but simple to build and they don't fail. When I bought my boat, I intended to make it fold or swing the floats. I have not been quite as successful as I expected. Every system I have designed/experimented with has had serious flaws. The hinge systems for "swinging" the floats like the "firefly" looked like they belonged on something that moves dirt, and the "corsair" style would require a complete re-design of the beam attachment and load paths. I also would like to put lifting foils in the floats, but not until I have worked out the beam loading and folding. I am on an inland lake and I have to be able to trailer the boat, so a solid beam is not possible. We are not the only ones, the "seacart" looks great, but is harder to assemble than the buc 24 and takes at least two people. I have done my boat by myself, but it is not fun. I am still trying:!: Bruce

[ThomD]

You could probably get by with 3/16" wire, which would be 1/4th the weight? Not that there is anything much to be gained about a lighter wire unless you have to carry it yourself!

I have the same problem with my KHSD. There are Dragonflies, Summersaults, and Buccs around there, racing off moorings. I think the KHSD would fit into that fleet with perfection. But I want to trailer sail different waters, not race. I have come to a decision that I am selling it and moving down to a smaller tri. I can build far better accommodations, easier set-up, and solve my storage problems all by moving to an 18.5 foot tri.

I think the Kendrick 18 is perfect for me, but I don't think I can justify the expense of a folding system, plans, and the materials he uses vs. what I can do by myself. I haven't actually made the decision yet, though, but I am working on a design, that will be a bit like a Newick B2/Argonauta/Horizon, crossed with the load carrying of a Trailertri 18. If one scales the amas of the 80s onto a touring boat at 18.5 foot length on could get away with 13 foot amas, and with that, one doesn't even need a folding system. At the moment I am thinking 16 foot amas with more bouyancy but less weight than what the tremolino originally had.

Ironically, to some extent, to move a fat 18 foot main hull one actually ends up with the same rig and amas as on my 24, so that would be a number of the same problems I currently have, if not the storage and berth size problems. If I didn't have a storage problem I might be inclined to simply build a new central hull and have two main hulls for different uses, one set of amas, and one rig.

I picked up a cool lift truck that uses a winch to lift it's platform. Something a little more tricked out along that line would make positioning the full size amas a lot easier than two people. I have never managed to mount the amas by myself, or at least I don't remember it.

[oldsailor7]

I only have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans left, and when they have gone there will be no more. $150.00 shipping included. PM if interested.

[bruceb]

Thomd, I am not a weight lifter- I can't pick up but one end of my floats- however, my boat came with a crude but effective lift system. It would not work on a stock Buc 24, but mine doesn't have a cabin so the cars can ride over the "stored" position of the floats. You attach the pair of cars, tighten the lift ropes up , unfasten the float and roll it in or out and re-attach it. Very simple but a little slow. I have included a couple of pictures. My 24 has 3/16" shrouds, I think about right for the weight of the boat so 1/4" water stays seem about correct. Buc 24s seem to end up about 1400-1600 lbs plus three crew so the shrouds are supporting around 2/3 of that when the main hull is almost out of the water. The forward water stay carries most of the load, the rear could be smaller. I agree with your idea of a smaller boat, the boat I used most of any I ever owned was a very trailerable 19' monohull. It wasn't the best boat, but it was so easy to use I took it everywhere. I do like the size and performance of the Buc 24 when I am sailing though, and I intend to sail some coastal and maybe even the Bahamas; the extra space and ability will be nice then. Bruce

[Catabolic]

I only have one set of Buccaneer 24 plans left, and when they have gone there will be no more. $150.00 shipping included. PM if interested.

I'm interested in a set, can you contact me with cash xfer details etc, pls?

[oldsailor7]

I am sorry------ They have all gone.

[Catabolic]

Pity, missed out... never mind. It would have been easier than re-inventing the wheel.

[Samnz]

I am sorry------ They have all gone.

How many sets did you have 6 monthes ago? do you know much about the bucc 28? or plans for it? I have seen one for sale a long time ago but there seem to be less 28s than 24s.

[Sea Stallion]

Like these?

[Samnz]

yes thats the one. Do you know what sized bolts are spec'd for the beam to float connection? Also what weight are they? Would it be faster than the 24?

[Sea Stallion]

The bolts the hold the ss strap across the crossbeam to the float are 8 inch long by 3/8 inch diameter. Displacement is 4000 lb and payload is 2000 lb. Not exactly sure of the completed weight. I would suspect it to be faster than a B24 by mere virtue of greater LWL.

[bruceb]

What size are the beams on the 28? Bruce

[Sea Stallion]

5.5 inch diameter and slightly over 5ft long.

[bruceb]

Thanks, the 28's tubes are about an inch larger than the 24's, and a little shorter. My 24 uses 3/8 bolts also, so I guess they are a bit over done, though anything smaller tends to strip so easily I would not trust them. The 28 appears to be about twice the size of the 24- a whole lot more boat. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

Yes.
I built two Buccaneer 28's---one for myself.
It was a great boat. We used to cruise it with four people and in twenty four races over a two year period it took 21 firsts 2 thirds and a 2nd place, racing on Lake Ontario. It was the best Trimaran I have ever owned. :D

Unfortunately I was stupid enough to let the plans go when I sold it.

[Samnz]

Yes.
I built two Buccaneer 28's---one for myself.
It was a great boat. We used to cruise it with four people and in twenty four races over a two year period it took 21 firsts 2 thirds and a 2nd place, racing on Lake Ontario. It was the best Trimaran I have ever owned. :D

Unfortunately I was stupid enough to let the plans go when I sold it.

did you ever race against an equally well setup and sailed 24? if so how did they compare % wise? Do you know the dry weight (no sails or crew)?

[Sea Stallion]

Yes.
I built two Buccaneer 28's---one for myself.
It was a great boat. We used to cruise it with four people and in twenty four races over a two year period it took 21 firsts 2 thirds and a 2nd place, racing on Lake Ontario. It was the best Trimaran I have ever owned. :D

Unfortunately I was stupid enough to let the plans go when I sold it.


My boat originally came from Ontario but was built somewhere around Bay City, MI I believe and in the early '80s. The plans came with my boat. It also had a composite wing mast and sail that were formerly on Adagio. Same boat?

[bruceb]

Oldsailor, How did construction time and cost compare between the 24 and 28? Bruce

[oldsailor7]

did you ever race against an equally well setup and sailed 24? if so how did they compare % wise? Do you know the dry weight (no sails or crew)?

Yes. Another member of our club built one in parallel with me. Took him a bit longer though. Two boats were identical except I had my Jib sheet angles narrower and a bigger vertical daggerboard. As a result I could always beat him on the windward leg. Cannot remember the weight. After all it was 36years ago.

[Samnz]

Yes. Another member of our club built one in parallel with me. Took him a bit longer though. Two boats were identical except I had my Jib sheet angles narrower and a bigger vertical daggerboard. As a result I could always beat him on the windward leg. Cannot remember the weight. After all it was 36years ago.

Sorry I meant race your 28 against a 24? or anyone ever raced a bucc 24 vs a bucc 28 with equal sails and crew skills?

[oldsailor7]

Sorry I meant race your 28 against a 24? or anyone ever raced a bucc 24 vs a bucc 28 with equal sails and crew skills?

I guess the answers NO.

[catsketcher]

I met a bloke with a Bucc 24 that needs a lot of work. If I were to get it I would cut the cabin off and just go day racer with it. It has sails and a rig but you need to be near here to get it. The guy is a nice guy who doesn't want it to die. He seems ready to let it go if someone will do the work. The boat is out of the water at the mo.

If anyone near Newcastle NSW feels this could be them get back to me.

cheers

Phil Thompson

[zigzag]

Hi I am Interested in that buc 24 can you send contact no? Also I have buc 28 plans if anyone needs them

[zigzag]

Does the buc 28 have the same minor design problems as the 24? That is it would benefit from the same tweaking that has proven to be effective on the 24's. Personally I think the 33 is the most elegant of the Buc series. No hope it seems of getting plans on that model though. I wish there was an enterprising Naval Architect who would draw up some inspired hybrid designs based on these boats. My cheque is in the mail.

[catsketcher]

Zigzag

You would have to be able to chop up the boat - it has fixed composite beams. The guy really wants to be able to see it go sailing so I would say Hong Kong is too far. Also it does require a fair bit of work.

[stancil]

zig zag

I'm interested in the buc 28 plans. Talk to me. I'd send you a pm but have to post more first.

I'm looking to build a tri in the 28 to 34 foot range. I like the crowther lines and the ply construction.

[gpb]

I'm seriously thinking to buy a set of plans. However, I'm not sure that I understood which are the suggested modifications to improve the design... Anyone cares to list them? Thx!

[zigzag]

In reference to buc plans and modifications. I assume that the tweaking may be applied to the 24 and 28, Oldsailor has much experience and note also the mods to the buc 24 Miranda in NZ,ref 23/11/08 posting. Read through the buc 24 postings and previously the 24' trimarans postings. Oldsailor advocates extending the floats forward
Miranda has an extended stern, and mods to the rudder /centreboard are suggested. Seems a lot of time has passed and many boats have been built that these comments are highly valid. In the finish however one would have a very fast tri. I have also heard the buc33 had a tendency to pitch so perhaps a modification of the stern goes for all. Perhaps we could get Oldsailor to put it all on a drawing for a cost of course.

[zigzag]

pls. send PM for further info/interest in the buc 28 plans I still am looking for buc 33 plans or where would one stretch the 28' proportionately on length only?

[zigzag]

I have china factory who will make kiri plywood to BS 1088. that would take 45% off the weight of normal hardwood marine ply, bit of bother 4 me in QC work but you would get the fast buc! I am basically looking for a big order so the factory is happy. Also I will build a buc 4 u for cost plus, minus rig winches in HK.Meranti framing,prefer to make lite out of Kiri Ply sheathed glass epoxy

[felix7]

no experience here, please help. Can AC or AB fir plywood be used for
the Buccaneer (from the local lumber place)?
I did google "samba mahogany" but all came back was Brazilian dances

thanks
Felix

[felix7]

Is anybody using the USComposites epoxy? any other suggestions
(cheaper & better). Shipping from Florida to California is like 50%
of the epoxy...
thanks
Felix

[felix7]

I have a pretty small backyard. Can the trimaran be finally
assembled away from the building site, ie. be built piece by piece?
thanks
Felix

[felix7]

Does this trimaran take a custom trailer? Built to plans, what
is the final weight of the boat plus trailer (approx. evidently).
I have a sedan and I worry about trailering a 24ft boat...
thanks
Felix

[bruceb]

Felix, I think most any tri would need a "custom" trailer, but it doesn't have to be "very" custom- just some adjustable rollers down the center and a set of bunks that can be adjusted to center the main hull. Mine was built from a two axle powerboat trailer for about a 22' powerboat- rated at 3500lbs load capacity and weighs around 800 lbs. The boat looks large in the rear view mirror but trails great:) A much lighter trailer would still work fine, my boat is around 1500lbs with the normal gear and engine on board. Most Buc 24s seem to weigh between 1400-1600lbs equipped. Mine was built with 1/4" fir ply in most areas and does not have the cabin, which would add about 100lbs. They can be built 200-300lbs lighter with careful construction and selection of plywood. The material list for most of the smaller tri's give away their real weight- and they are almost all heavier than the Buc 24. The buc gives up some cabin space, but using less wood is less costly to build and offers really good performance for your time and money. I will post a picture of my trailer (or any other details) soon if you are interested. Bruce

[felix7]

Bruce,
I appreciate you taking time to respond. Does it make sense to make these
trailers out of aluminum or is steel the norm? I'm interested in taking the boat
to Baja, SF Bay (closes to me, I'm around Sacramento) and maybe around Seattle. I'd be interested in pictures of both your boat and the trailer.
Thanks
Felix

[oldsailor7]

Bruce,
I appreciate you taking time to respond. Does it make sense to make these
trailers out of aluminum or is steel the norm? I'm interested in taking the boat
to Baja, SF Bay (closes to me, I'm around Sacramento) and maybe around Seattle. I'd be interested in pictures of both your boat and the trailer.
Thanks
Felix

In my booklet there is a pic of a Buc28 packed on a standard trailer. The boat is sitting on simple wooden cradles made from Douglas Fir two by fours, padded with PU foam.

[bruceb]

Felix, A good alloy trailer is almost always the best, most hi-end powerboats and working fishermen use them on the east coast. They are lighter and somewhat more flexible so design does matter more, the support system needs to protect the thin hull of your boat. A good trailer dealer should be able to set it up correctly. Almost anything will get the boat to the water (even a cradle on a flatbed wrecker:) ), but if you are going to travel regularly, spend the time and money to do it right. I will post some pics this weekend. Bruce

[ThomD]

If you have access to good doug fir plywood, it can be used in almost any part of the boat that requires larger size ply. But it needs to be fully finished with glass cloth and epoxy to be worry free, normally. D-Fir is also heavier than some other choices, often is not good quality, and it does not come in really thin ply form for the skins. I did some of my larger bulkheads on a similar boat in balsa cored 1/8" skins and sorta thought it was stupid at the time, but it weights what 9mm does and is extremely rugged compared to any ply, eliminates internal framing.

I built a trailer for my tri out of wood with welded bits. John Marples provided the plans. Interestingly he was recently pretty negative on the regulatory environment in the US these days saying trailering tris was barely legal in many states unless trailer brakes were used, and that their cost and maintenance issues took a lot of the fun out of it. If I remember that correctly.

[bruceb]

My buc 24 was built out of 1/4" d fir ply, epoxy coated but not glassed, and has held up very well for the last 30yrs. None of the bad spots I have repaired came from the outside. It is a little heavier, and the finish quality is just fair, but looks pretty decent painted. One of the good marine plys would be better, and I would suggest trying to afford it- the buc does not use that much. I would glass the decks, below the waterline, and paint the sides. If you use good ply, they will be lighter, fairer than most people can make glass their first time, you will save a lot of sanding and finish your boat several months sooner:) The Buc 24 does not require the glass for strength. As a sailboat dealer, I have sold hundreds of trailers and boats, and I see no reason a tri should present any issues for trailering. Mine is 7'11" wide and the whole package weighs under 2500lbs. I think it is legal anywhere in the country. Some states do require brakes over 2000lbs and most over 3000lbs, but modern, all-stainless brakes are almost trouble-free and a very good idea if you are towing with a light car. Bruce

[oldsailor7]

I only have two sets of Buccaneer 24 trimaran plans left --if anyone is still interested. :cool:

[oldsailor7]

Is anybody using the USComposites epoxy? any other suggestions
(cheaper & better). Shipping from Florida to California is like 50%
of the epoxy...
thanks
Felix

SHOP AROUND.
There are several boat building epoxy systems available in SoCal.
West System epoxy and System 3 come to mind.
Google "Boatbuilding Epoxies" and you will get a good selection.

[oldsailor7]

I only have one set of B24 plans left now.
First in --best dressed. :eek:
If interested PM me for my PayPal addy.

[oldsailor7]

For those who are building or sailing the Buccaneer 24 trimaran, go to new thread " Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum". Ask questions and swap ideas.
OP7 :D

[oldsailor7]

THIS IS CRAZY.

I can't believe the continuing interest in the little Buccaneer 24.
I said I wasn't going to produce any more plans---but the pressure has been too great.

It is not worth my while producing plans in less than five sets at a time.

I have just produced five sets and only have three left.
Any one else interested please PM me.

On the difference between the Buc 24 and 28. There was not a lot of difference in the performance. The B24 was faster and more close winded to weather. The 28 had a greater advantage in rough seas due to its bigger size. It also (like the B24) was very fast in light wind conditions and loved fast close reaches with the flat cut assymetric spinnaker.
Non of this sissy business of sailing with short handed crew to save weight.
We sailed with three crew for afternoon races, four for day races and five for overnights. A very comfortable boat altogether.
The B33 was not a very successful Tri in my opinion. We had one in our Toronto fleet and also a Kraken 33, but we could beat them in every race. Probably because they were built too heavy. They were longer, but had skinny hulls and the accomodations were no better than the 28.

[gpb]

Hello Oldsailor
this continues to puzzle me. Could you please tell me how long does it take to assemble the B24 from trailer to water?

[bruceb]

I have assembled mine in about 5hrs the first time (I had never seen it together) and about 2 1/2-3hrs the next few times with a helper. Take down is about the same. The last time I did it by myself in about 3hrs. I think I can add some quick-release fittings and improve on that. Lacing the tramps still takes too long. I had a similar size monohull that I used to do in under an hour, so there is still a lot of room for improvement- I am working on it. The Buc is half the weight of the old boat to trailer and twice as fast in the water, so there are rewards for the effort.:)

[oldsailor7]

Bruce is right. About three hours is a good ball park.

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
Have you fixed your "Droopy" forward crossbeam joints yet. ??? :eek:

If so --how did you do it. ???

[bruceb]

I found some aluminum pipe that is a close inside fit for the cross beams. I have only replaced one of the wooden plugs, but the boat is much stiffer now. I tried out a new large main yesterday- the boat loves it. Points high and goes fast:) 31.5' hoist and 12.6' foot with a medium large roach. I will get some pics next week. Os7, what sort of heavy air sails should the Buc have- 30-40kt conditions? B

[oldsailor7]

Bruce.
The storm jib (shown in the table on sheet 6) is OK.

The main can be reefed right down if you have the right reefing setup. The Buc will sail in extreme conditions on fully reefed mainsail alone.

Looking forward to the pics. :)

[oldsailor7]

I have found some B&W pics of my B24 and will try and get them up on this thread by the coming weekend. :D

[bruceb]

I would enjoy seeing those 24 pics:) Also 28s or any others:) :) Did you build your 28 in Canada and if so, where did it end up? I am taking my boat out for the winter soon, and I will try to document the take down. B

[oldsailor7]

I would enjoy seeing those 24 pics:) Also 28s or any others:) :) Did you build your 28 in Canada and if so, where did it end up? I am taking my boat out for the winter soon, and I will try to document the take down. B

Bruce.
Failed to get the B24 pics to post properly. Will try again in the next few days.

I built two 28s in Toronto. The first one went to Florida in 1976 and the other (mine) was sold with my company to a guy called Skip Roncesvilles in Annapolis in late 1977. I have a nice picture of it packed up on a standard trailer, which you may already have in my Bote-Cote book. :D

[bruceb]

Thanks, and yes I have seen that pic in your book:) A little off subject, but how long did it take to build the 28 as compared to the 24? It looks like much more boat. B

[oldsailor7]

About six months.
We built two side by side, but the first one took priority. The second one was mine so it had to take second place to other income producing jobs. :(

[oldsailor7]

Hope these pics come out OK. Buc 24 # 63.

www.oldpilotsairport.com/boatimages.zip

You will have to pick out the sharpest images if you want to download them.

The best are:-
(1_small.jpg) View from Fwd at the dock. Note the small forward windows for taking rough water and the simple SS pulpit with only two welds.
(2_small.jpg) B24 sailing. five people on board plus rubber duckie. Imagine that with a taller mast and Fathead mainsail.
(3_small.jpg) View in dock from astern. Note the simple combined mainsheet and traveller detail. Very effective for best sail trim.
(4_small.jpg) View from above. Perforated decking very successful. Plenty of safe room for moving around and forward sitting area.
I built the cabin with the Mk2 length but the Mk1 width. You can just see the jib sheet tracks down on the side catwalks next to the cabin sides. This enabled the narrower sheeting angle for the forsails, which together with the bigger daggerboard, made this boat so fast and closewinded on weather courses.

[sheen]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and to sailing, but have been studying the Buc 24 posts. Your old photos are neat. The perforated plywood "spray deflectors" (shown in the last one) is a neat idea. I had a question about the aluminum tubes. In plans I have it shows being able to cut the tubes to allow for demounting. Others have mentioned play developing because the wooden plugs used to join the tube sections wear. Is this really that big a problem, or is the system as specified in the plans a good one? I could see how the plugs if neglected, could be bad but was hoping if the boat was maintained the plugs and tubes would allow many cycles of mounting/unmounting. I am still thinking about the design, because I will have to trailer the boat and rig each time I use it. It may be that the Buc 24 design is not really the right way to go given this limitation; however, the simplicity and performance of the design is sure attractive. Tough to imagine building anything cheaper that had higher performance. I'm coming from a background in power boating (40+ knot boat) so I can't stand the idea of getting a sailboat that can't potentially go at least 10 knots.
The only other issue I have found is that the plans call out hardware that is no longer available. Particularly the mast and boom would need to changed. I was wondering what might be acceptable substitutions for the mast and boom hardware. Is a rolling boom reefing system still a reasonable way to go?
Dan

[jamez]

Hi,
The only other issue I have found is that the plans call out hardware that is no longer available. Particularly the mast and boom would need to changed. I was wondering what might be acceptable substitutions for the mast and boom hardware. Is a rolling boom reefing system still a reasonable way to go?
Dan

Lots of farriers have roller reefing mains and many B24's have been updated with more 'modern' fractional rigs. There are pics here of SamNZ's boat on the site which show a fairly large square topped rig. This boat routinely beats 10 knots :-) Maybe get some advice from a multi oriented rigger/sailmaker?

[oldsailor7]

If the B24 is built as per the plans, the roller reefing is standard.
You can see it clearly in one of the sharper pics. :D

The wooden plugs for joining the crossbeams were subsequently superceded by close fitting alloy tubes which were coated with epoxy to seal them against corrosion. All my Buccaneers had the alloy tubes,(including mast, boom and spinnaker pole), triple anodised. Costs very little more and is really worth while.

[oldsailor7]

If you study those pictures closely they will call up many questions.
I am happy to answer them if I can.
OS7 :D

[bruceb]

Good pics OS7, Thanks. Sheen, depending on where you sail and your "need for speed" almost any more modern rig can be used. The fore triangle is about right as designed, but a somewhat taller-maybe rotating mast is easy and well worth while to adapt. Most of the racing owners have. Anything that works on a f-24 size boat is fine, the Buc 24 can carry a lot of sail. I had one reef in an oversize main and a small jib last week- 18-25kts, smaller lake size waves, two crew and saw around 6.5-7 kts pointing very high and an easy 10-12 kts reaching, (GPS verified) all with good control. Single handing, I would put in another reef which would make the main a little smaller than shown on the plans and I could cleat the main and use an autopilot:)

[sheen]

I feel pretty inadequate. This boat attracted me because it looked cheap and fast (insert woman joke here) and you guys are talking about autopilots and rotating masts. This is neat stuff, but I'm very new to sailing and am more confident in my ability to build something than in my ability to sail it. The boat sounds like under good conditions it would hit 10 knots without getting real fancy/expensive rigs and might even perform at this level with a unskilled captain (me, under ideal conditions). My hope is that I can get a rig set up that is inexpensive, reliable, but still has most of the performance of the fancier stuff. I'm not really planning to race but like being on the water.
The thing drawing me to the trimaran versus monohull is that I'm and engineer and a weighted keel just seems so inefficient. Also, I like the idea of being able to cling to the floating wreckage ...
It sounds like maybe the right thing to do is implement the foresail as in the plans. The mast in the plans is an aluminum tube with bolt rope molding which seems uncommon and also roller reefing seems outdated. The boom is the same way. The few boats I've been on had regular fractional reefs in the sail. So my question to you guys is what specific mast, specific boom, and main sail to get? I found a web site that sells mast extrusions ( http://www.dwyermast.com/ ). Any of those look appropriate for mast and boom? Other recommendations? What about the gooseneck? Maybe another common modern boat that I could just copy the rig from? Thanks for the guidance.
Dan

[oldsailor7]

Sheen.
Don't get your knickers on a knot about this boat before you address your main requirement. Being able to fold it and tow it to a launch ramp every time you want to go for a sail. The Buccaneer 24 won't do that. You can see from Bruces post that he estimates 3 hrs to take apart and on to a trailer.
Even an easily folded boat like an F24 is still a pain to do that.
I had a Crowther International 23, which I used to race every Wednesday afternoon. I kept it in a warehouse not far from the water. It had sliding beams which were a snip to slide out to the max beam. But the effort of towing it to the launching ramp, sliding it open, installing the decks, raising the mast and rigging,arranging all the running rigging sails etc: was just exhausting to do immediately before a race. Afterwards we had to reverse it all over again. A real pain.
It's OK if you are going to rig up the boat for a long weekend for instance, but you have to take into account that assembly and demounting time at each end of the sailing spree.
Even the little 4 berth Jarcat which I owned for three years was a pain--- and it was all in one non-folding piece, whch was trailer/legal. I finally gave up and put it on a mooring. I am not trying to put you off---but You have to make your own decision on this one.

[bruceb]

Sheen, I really like my Buc 24, but I do not like getting it ready to trailer. I used to be a boat dealer, and I found that for most people, any boat that took more than 25 mins to set up/take down was not really trailable, just transportable. The boats just ended up sitting in a parking place most of the time. Even F24s don't "pass the test", and I am quite impressed with their engineering- it would be hard to do any better. I think that with attention to details and some custom work on my trailer, two motivated people could get my boat in/out in about two hours. Much of the time is spent messing with bolts, nuts and tramp lacing, and I am not sure how to speed that up. Not yet anyway:( A simple rig like you are interested in does help, and you might consider a boomless main. I had been using one that came with my boat and it was very simple and worked quite well. Full battens and lazy jacks made it really easy to reef. B

[sheen]

Thanks for you guidance! I am coming to the realization that the trailering/ set-up issue probably takes the Buc out of consideration. I have enjoyed studying the plans and the forum posts and have not completely ruled it out but I think it is a bit of a stretch for me to make it work. Any boats come to mind that are similar in design and performance that would be quicker to setup? I have thought about a small cat or a centerboard dingy, but where I'm at, winter is the prime sailing season and I like the idea of being able to stay somewhat dry. Maybe I'm back to the dreaded conventional monohull...
Dan

[oldsailor7]

-- but where I'm at, winter is the prime sailing season and I like the idea of being able to stay somewhat dry. Maybe I'm back to the dreaded conventional monohull...
Dan
0
A conventional monohull does not have to be a "Lead Mine". (Although whatever mono you get will be a "Leaner" :eek: )

There are plenty of good small DIY centreboard monos available.
A good and popular one by a NZ designer comes to mind---but I can't recall the name of it.

Perhaps one of our NZ followers could oblige. :D

[bruceb]

:D Sheen, take a look at the L-7 from Multi Marine in California. It is very close to the Buc 24 in concept and is a real boat with support, not a CAD computer dream. It also slides together for transport:) Bruce

[DarthCluin]

I don't know what the setup time is for them, but before you give up on multis, you might look at the Wharram Tiki 21, or the Newick Tremelino.
http://wharram.com/tiki21.html
http://www.dicknewick.com/Tremolino.html
If we are suggesting our favorite monohulls, allow me to suggest Phil Bolger's Black Skimmer. It is featured in Wooden Boat Magazine's 2010 Small Boats, and plans are available here:
http://instantboats.com/

[sheen]

I went to the web site and checked out the L-7. Looked great. I also liked the looks of the Scarab 18 and 22. They all appear to trailer and set-up easily. Still would like to find out about the popular NZ monohull that oldsailor mentioned.
Dan

[Gary Baigent]

Not this one by any chance? - that's a joke, although it had a huge number of hits on crew.org, local sailing site - but there is only one in existence.

[oldsailor7]

Good one Gary. Lol.

But what is that interesting looking Tri in the background.???
It appears to have only the two rudders on the outriggers---unless there is a main rudder hidden in a cassette on the mainhull. :?:

[oldsailor7]

GO BACK to post 224 for added information about the pics. :D

[Tom.151]

Hope these pics come out OK. Buc 24 # 63.
www.oldpilotsairport.com/boatimages.zip

os7,
when I download and open the .zip file there is only a 0-byte file named 1_print.jpg inside

what am I missing?

thanks a lot,

[jamez]

I went to the web site and checked out the L-7. Looked great. I also liked the looks of the Scarab 18 and 22. They all appear to trailer and set-up easily. Still would like to find out about the popular NZ monohull that oldsailor mentioned.
Dan

Sorry can't help with the 'popular NZ mono' without a few more clues :-) There are many.

Based on my experiences with a mono TS many years ago. If you have to trail you want a boat that can be quickly rigged and launched (i'd say under 45 minutes) or it won't get used much.

The L7 is a cool little boat IMO. And the newer Kendrick designs like the 18 and 650. There is a Scarab 22 with modified rig here

http://scarabsite.free.fr/Scarabsite/Bienvenue.html

Dick newick is supposedly working on an amateur build swing wing version of the tremolino. You might also be interested in the 21 foot tri here
http://www.delaveaumultihulldesign.com/designs.php

For cats Richard Woods Wizard 22 can fold, but I don't know how quickly incomparison with a folding tri.

[oldsailor7]

os7,
when I download and open the .zip file there is only a 0-byte file named 1_print.jpg inside

what am I missing?

thanks a lot,

When you click on the URL and get the Winzip page --click on "Open" and then "I Agree". You should then get 16 lines of code.
Ony four of them are good sharp pics. IE:- 1, 2, 3, &4_small.jpg

Thats all I can help you with I'm afraid. :o

[Gary Baigent]

Good one Gary. Lol.

But what is that interesting looking Tri in the background.???
It appears to have only the two rudders on the outriggers---unless there is a main rudder hidden in a cassette on the mainhull. :?:

It's a lengthened Farrier 680 - to 7.5m or so, maybe it's 8, I've forgotten. There are asymmetric daggers also in the floats plus the lifting rudders shifted to the slightly lengthened amas. Boat Has had the interior gutted and no (silly) after cabin as per original, instead the cockpit has been shifted aft into the lengthened area. Boat is named Shifty and it goes extremely well. On a mooring it is bow down a little but once crew are aboard, levels out nicely, no dragging stern (as per original).

[oldsailor7]

Thanks Gary.
Very interesting indeed. I presume that when the boat is head to wind the tips of both rudders are sufficiently in the water to maintain the tack :?:

[Gary Baigent]

Tacks as fast as a dinghy, oldsailor7. There is always rudder area in water - and it quickly flops over onto the new tack, helped by the ama mounted daggerboards - and there is no problem when head to wind because, although it doesn't look it from the photograph, with the rudders folded aft, they are actually quite deep.

[oldsailor7]

Thanks Gary.
Hot looking boat. :D

[oldsailor7]

I'm off up the coast tomorrow for the Hols, so a merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year to you all.

And to all those whose local water is not solid-----Happy sailing.

OS7

[jmolan]

Buccaneer 24 plans on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300380601066&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Its all I know!....:-)

[Headharbor]

Hi All,

First post on this thread. I just bought a 24' Bucc, she has been neglected for some time and there are a few items that I was hoping to find some information through this forum. The hulls are fiberglass with a foam core and seem to be in good shape.


First, the boat did not come with a dagger board. Can anyone share the dimensions and pictures of their board or do you know what the design called for orginally?

Does anyone have the rigging layout? I am sure I am missing a few items.

Thanks in advance for any help.