Terror @ Taj Palace and Oberoi Trident - India [Archive]

millionswords

12-01-2008, 03:03 AM

Post is continued from another thread, from the Boat Design section, as suggested by ancient-kayaker.

I'm pasting the conversation from that thread for easy reading.

P.S. The manner, in which you write, suggests that you may be a westerner. The events at hotels in the last few days cause many of us to be concerned for new found friends in India. We have had our tragic lessons here in the US and, despite what the crazies think, we do care for people elsewhere.

I feel Sorry - Ashamed - Helpless for the act of the terrorists, who seemed to have infiltrated through the waters into south Mumbai, lucky that I was not in Mumbai/Bombay during these attacks, far away some 1500KMs south of Mumbai, but caught in the flood here.!!

It is a security lapse, certainly they have managed to find foreign(US, Israelis and UK) tourists and nail them down. Seems to have been an extended attack of these citizens on less secure or unexpected land! Guess no one can anticipate such attacks and make security measures?

Wonder where this is all leading to? Fear grips!

I don't want to highjack this thread for a discussion on terrorism, but while they seem to have targeted foreign tourists, the number of people reported as killed far exceeds the deaths of Israelis, Americans and other westerners. As always, it is the unfortunate standers-by who suffer most in these indiscriminate acts of hatred.

Collateral Damage - do we call it?

The targets to how far my brain can think were:

1. Well Off Indians,
2. Israelis
3. Americans and
4. English

They have asked for passport, and IDs before killing.
They have kept people standing (17 of them) in a line and made a call to someone and asked if they can proceed with the killing(massacre) and executed it.

1. Cafe Leopold is a cafe where the average Indian walks by watching the 3 dozen tables fill with Whites, it was not a place for the common man. Leopold was the first target of shooting early during the attack.

2. Taj was not for the common man, Taj Palace was occupied by the worlds biggest money makers and decision makers. Wonder how many of them have lost life, only to wait and see the list come out with some identification in a few days.

I read, a bank chairman was stopped and asked who he was, and what he does for a living - he replied he was a teacher from bangalore and the terrorist asked him "how a teacher could afford to be at the taj Palace?" and prepared to shoot when a grenade exploded near them and the man escaped to tell the story!

Damn - scary.
Still to see what news comes out and how the plot unfolded.

National Security Guards came to the scene after 9.30 hours! - Dhud! shame.
Operation was over when the last man standing was taken by them and to find no hostages were left alive, and every floor has dead bodies and still counting!

I hate to see the TV now!

PS: Me too don't want to hijack this thread - may be we should discuss these in the open forum. (though this event has some relation to boats we don't want it to be in the boat discussion area!!) - I couldn't help replying. Lets drop it here and continue with the boat building.

Will find some more info on material soon, once the flood recedes and get back to you guys.

bye,
MS

My dear MS: I have no words for this, but others might want to read and respond to your news. The news on the topic here is very trite and parochial, we do not get the full picture until days later if at all. I suggest you repost your information in the Post Tsunami forum, which is probably the most appropriate; it is at:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/

I for one will be looking for it.

-AK

millionswords

12-01-2008, 03:29 AM

Date: Dec 01 2008

Post Tragedy, Salvation and Investigation:

1. The scope was wider for the Mumbai tragedy.
2. RDX explosives were found near both the hotel premises in large quantity.
3. One of the bombs went off near the Oberoi Trident hotel, but the impact was reduced due to the bomb squads timely intervention.
4. Bombs were supposed to be escape decoys, but turned out to be a missed plan.
5. The explosions could have spread to 100 meters.!
6. Instructions inside the metal box containing the RDX explosives were written in Urudu language [spoken widely in Muslim countries like Pakistan]
7. Bomb Squad had thrown a bomb blanket during the attacks on the timer set bomb opposite the entrance of the Trident Hotel.

No burial of Pakistan terrorists on Indian soil:
The Muslim Council on Sunday decided not to allow the bodies of the nine Pakistani terrorists killed in the Mumbai attacks to be buried at the Bada Qabrastan (cemetery) on Marine Lines. The Council said it would send a message to all Indian cemeteries that they should not permit the burial of the bodies of terrorists on Indian soil. The Council authorities also handed over a letter to the Marine Lines cemetery along these lines.

Govt downplaying terror toll?

We still do not know how many died in the terror attacks. The government insists the attacks claimed 172. But fire officials told TOI on Sunday they had so far found 160 bodies at Taj alone. Add to that the toll at Oberoi, CST and Nariman House, and it’s obvious that the government is playing down the numbers, and the figures do not total up right!
We have to wait and watch.

Pakistani exSoldier planned the terror attack in 7 phases:
I read the attack was well planned 6 months ago, in pakistani soil, by a ex military man. Intensive training was provided to 25 young men, and 10 were hand picked for this operation. Stamina, strategy and ammunition training were the major part of the one year training.

The stamina of the men that carried the attacks sleepless for about 50 hours in the south Mumbai area have gasped the National Security Guards Commandos[NSG]. Bags of dry fruits and nuts were found near the terrorists that were killed.

One man[ Ajmal Amir Kasab 21y.o] who was captured alive lives to tell the story of the plan and execution. Wonder how much more shocking news is that man going to spell in the following days. Investigations are on in an undisclosed location, and we all know the investigation talents of the sleuths in India. Lets wait for some news to come through.

Two More Terrorists out in the wild?

There could be two more out in this concrete jungle, the blasts some 40 KMs north of Colaba and Church Gate suggests there could be a few more 2 or 3 who have managed to escape. But the JC still sticks to the count of only 10 terrorists came into Mumbai for this attack through the Karachi - Porbunder - Mumbai gate Way of India entry route!

Damn that place - "Gateway of India" is such a crowded place and the sea is crowded with tourists, fishermen, boats, luxury boats, yachts, naval vessels and the Nuclear Hub is just meters away. Wonder what would have been the situation of that was rounded up! India could have been held hostage whole as a nation!

damn!

Frosty

12-01-2008, 03:58 AM

RHP

12-01-2008, 05:49 AM

A very good friend of mine was staying at the Oberoi hotel with his wife during the attack and baricaded themselves in their room for the duration. Fortunately no one came knocking on their door. Another good friend lives in Mumbai and heard all the bombs and shooting frorm their balacony windows. He sent me a further email today: "Some people have lost entire families, grandparents, parents and children as there were 4 weddings taking place in the Taj Hotel that night as this is the traditional wedding season in Mumbai and I have no doubt that the terrorist group had that in mind when they chose the date for the attack - so as to cause the maximum death and terror."

ancient kayaker

12-01-2008, 12:09 PM

I don't know what all the fuss is about , acts of terrorism like this happens every day in Iraq and Afganistan, probably by the same people, they are just as innocent as the Indians or anyone else. But I guess its got boring and there were no posh Hotels owned by Tata in it.

The worst act of terror has to be Hiroshima, followed by Nagasaki the week after, there were other less populated industrial targets that could have made the intended point. But the anger and retaliation for Pearl Harbour perhaps distorted judgment.

I am as confused as anyone else why we have nutters like,-- Hitler, Gadaffi, Idi Amin, Mugabwe, ladin, etc etc etc.

Go shoot Mugabwe if you want to help 00000,s of people Im sorry I just cant get emotional over it anymore.

Twin towers fall.
America sends in tanks ,bombers, latest radar guided missiles 10,000 trained soldiers dig into Afganistan.

Bin Ladin escapes on Donkey.

I don't find it boring at all, but I would prefer these things did not happen. It is a sad reflection on our nature as human beings.

The events in Mumbai seem to be covered by the N. American media only as they effect foreign tourists, so I asked MS to provide us with a less slanted viewpoint. We have the "nutters" you mentioned because people fail to stand up to them before they become entrenched.

I read and hear of events in Thailand too; you are closer to that than I, but because you live in interesting times does not entitle you to cynicism. If you are bored, go back to sleep. Or wake up and take action!

millionswords

12-01-2008, 12:10 PM

Maximum Damage - did it do any good? Did they earn a single penny? are they going to be chiseled in the history of this world? Did they make a point? Does the world hear them right?

a Big NO, and still the killing goes on!

I can't stand the look on the face of the Captured terrorist Asif, and digest his plead to treat his wounds, he wants to live it seems!!

http://sjsandteam.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/gallery-mumbai-terror-att-007.jpg

I want to live: - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3772298.cms?in_showcase&in_showcase

his statement:
http://sjsandteam.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/azam-amir.jpg?w=479&h=735

millionswords

12-01-2008, 12:17 PM

"Kerala" is a south Indian state, and "Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan" died during a valiant fight with the terrorists leading his team who were dead too. His parents live in Bangalore.

The "chief minister" [who runs the state government] decided to go to the dead Major's house and console his parents, which was refused by the Major's father, who said he does not want his son's death to be used by politicians as a tool to promote themselves. Which is fair and right!

Every incident is used by these politicos to gain mileage.

Now the "Chief Minister" Achudhanandan, has commented," if it was Unnikrishnan[the father of the Major] who died, not even a dog would go to see his family"

That was filthy and sad and bad!

When the minister went to see him, and got refused by the dad, the police has forced the family to let them in and meet them, but to no avail, headed by the act, the politico has reacted in such a filthy manner!

millionswords

12-01-2008, 12:44 PM

Frosty

12-01-2008, 08:05 PM

Thailands airport siege is due to the opposite reasons. The police chief was sacked because he refused to send in police and forcibly remove due to possible injuries. The military also do not want to clash with there own people.

I think that even in Uk if some protesters took over Heathrow the army would be brought in and brutality would be used.

Apart from some idiot throwing a hand grenade a few days ago and the odd over zealous police man,-- most violence has been letting down each others tyres.

These people are Budhists ,causing death or hurt to another is unthinkable.

They literally would'nt hurt a fly.

The south? thats islamic. oops a pattern forming again.

Oh by the way avid news readers 25 died yesterday in Irag and hundreds of children die every day in Zimbawe due to nothing more than no clean water to drink, while Mugabwe sits at his cocktail cabinet watching tennis on his 36 inch plasma high definition big screen TV.

So while we mourn the dead with such passion we turn our head from the children who are yet to die,-- today.

Wake up and take action? Stop the world I wanna get off.

Frosty

12-01-2008, 08:17 PM

A file photo of the Taj Palace Hotel shot by me - http://www.flickr.com/photos/tamil/646703405/

and a photo of the same place, after the attack!
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/talkingpictures/images/mumbaiattack/20.jpg

Is this what it is about then , the Hotel? I could'nt care less about a Hotel and neither could Tatta the owner who incidentally is one of 3 families so wealthy they have more money than the Indian Government.

Those 3 families could cure the poverty in India by themselves or make a damn big hole in it.

Perhaps thats what this attack was about, a personal attack on Tatta and the other rich bloke who owned the other Hotel.

Theres a reason for you.

millionswords

12-02-2008, 03:49 AM

Is this what it is about then , the Hotel? I could'nt care less about a Hotel and neither could Tatta the owner who incidentally is one of 3 families so wealthy they have more money than the Indian Government.

Those 3 families could cure the poverty in India by themselves or make a damn big hole in it.

Perhaps thats what this attack was about, a personal attack on Tatta and the other rich bloke who owned the other Hotel.

Theres a reason for you.

frosty,

I really dunno what to reply.
You got a point there! But Tata(Ratan) to me is a simple business man, who does not hurt people but gives 1000s employment unlike the politicians.

You talk about assassinating the ploiticos, no one cares a damn. They just wipe it off and move on. But killing innocent people at a wedding, and on the road! man it got to be checked.

You think it makes sense to hit big businessmen? just because they have grown to where they are now? They have put the hard work to make the money and the business empire? It does not come off without effort my friend!

Well, what ever the reason is, killing some one and then begging to be alive is not pardonable. And please do not argue what these men did was right or what they did was to be ignored, we all agree there are other top priority killings and deaths that go on in this world, we just cannot ignore them too.

If some thing bothers you, I guess it is right to start a thread and debate the same, like the killings in Africa and death of children in Zimb. It is all really sad and bad, if we can we should try to do some thing, at least move a pin.

Frosty

12-02-2008, 08:17 AM

What I was suggesting is maybe Tatta ( Ratan) has had some pressure put on him to finance terrorism, he refused and this is the consiquences. Funny how two big hotels owned by two very wealth men should be targeted.

Killing a few other people and a few tourists was maybe an attempt to disguise this.!!! I dont know. Just thinking alloud.

ancient kayaker

12-02-2008, 12:02 PM

Frosty, I know you are not trying to justify the actions in India or defend the people who perpetrated them. Businessmen also perform crimes on occasion. Each criminal should answer to the courts, not die at the hands of yet another criminal, else it will never end.

You mention the UK and postulate that " if some protesters took over Heathrow" brutality would be used. Well, if that's what you call necessary police action. In the UK the situation would have been controlled long before reaching such a pass. While it is an fact that, when one group, no matter how legal and well wishing, opposes an illegal group no matter how peaceful, someone can be hurt, but I recall many a sit-down protest in the UK where nobody was, apart from the odd policeman with a strained back from lifting the dead weight of dozens of sitting students. In the UK, as in my own country of Canada, every victim is counted and the cost is calculated and the question is always asked, could we have handled this better?

Turning to Thailand; you say "these people are Budhists ,causing death or hurt to another is unthinkable"

- in Thailand you have yellow shirts and red shirts. In Europe there were once Black Shirts and Brown Shirts; they were much admired by some at the time but it lead to the 2nd World War and the Holocaust. You have (or had) a government with a prime minister who was trying to govern from a remote location far from the capital from fear for his own safety.

You had 100,000's of tourists held against their will as the planes that could have taken them home were sent away empty. These people were hostages no matter what spin you try to put on it; the majority of the anti-government protesters may have been peaceful Buddhists but there is no way to guarantee the lives of every one of those trusting visitors to your country and if so much as one dies, who shall be held responsible? Your (former) government? The police? Or shall we blame the tourists for being rich foreigners?

Was there a need for all this in the first place? The matter under protest was before a legally constituted court, today that court ruled to disband the ruling political party, a victory for peacful justice if ever there was one. Will you argue that the court acted under duress? If so, how can you argue that its ruling was just, and will the government not use precisely the same argument to try to remain illegally in power?

Hopefully all those tourists will escape with their lives. The effect of those days of fear and privation on the sick, elderly and nervous? Who knows. I care, do you? The future effect on Thailand? Perhaps you can tell me. I do not think you have a win-win situation there.

All that being said, there is no comparing the situation in Thailand, where thousands of innocent people were at risk but should soon be safe, with that in India, where the foolishness and ignorance of youth was sacrificed and more than a hundred people died for some manipulative old men and their foul "cause."

masalai

12-04-2008, 06:27 PM

Frosty

12-04-2008, 07:59 PM

Kayaker,--I have not ever tried to suggest that the airport seige in Thailand was in any way similar to the terrorist attack in India. I was pointing out the two different religions and therefore a different level of violence.

The tourists of Thailand where hostages? Have you been to Thailand? your should be aware that there are many airports left working which could have within an hour got you to Langkawi , Pinang, Singapore Phnom pen etc

Air Asia has incredibly cheap flights,-- can be cheaper than the bus.

Or a train to Kula Lumpur, Singapore , not to mention the hundreds of buses that go to the same places.

Only those wanting to claim on insurance needed to complain.

Actually most of them went back to the Hotel and enjoyed there extended holiday as the government assisted in hotel costs and waved immigration laws.

How nice is that?

Finally, you are trying to apply logic to Thai politics? Thia politics is for Thai politicians, Just sit in the deck chair and have another beer.

ancient kayaker

12-04-2008, 09:35 PM

Thanks for the clarification. Like I said, it can be hard to get the facts from a few thousand miles away; I got my info from a web posting on news forum.

Thai politics sound like politics anyplace else. We have had a somewhat similar situation in Canada:

Recently-elected minority government tries to pull a stunt so outrageous it unites the opposition.
Opposition forms coalition of parties which all stand for mutually exclusive policies.
Coalition calls for a vote of non-confidence to dump government.
Prime Minister calls everybody else nasty names.
All the old, worn-out arguments crawl out of the woodwork.
The coalition claims "it's democracy working" despite not having run or being voted for as a coalition.
Coalition ignores fact that proposed new leader of the country is scheduled to be dumped by his own party next May.
Established government asks Gov-General to prorogue parliament. She does.

Now I suppose they all go home now and do nothing, in the meantime the economy is looking for a hole to crawl down.

Sound familiar? At least nobody is shooting and it's not in the courts. Yet. Soon they'll all back down and claim they were misquoted.

masalai

12-05-2008, 12:10 AM

The pity is, many "westerners" are clueless as to the social & political niceties expected in the Asian countries and not all countries are, or, - expect the same, as they are of different language, social and cultural origins...

It also seems many politicians are clueless even about the needs of their own countries - similar sorts of dick-heads here, I reckon that politicians should serve for altruism (NO PAY) - that would limit their endurance, and any that stayed could be sued for fraud and embezzlement, Graft and corruption.....

millionswords

12-05-2008, 03:46 AM

millionswords is that plural "...words", - - or - - singular "...swords" ? I like playing with words....

Further info on those terrible events would be appreciated - My wife, from Nagercoil, does not want to know, (far too sad) - - I was intending to cruise Kerala and up to Goa etc, but I guess Lovely Lady will veto that option....

Do you know anyone after a block of land near the Hebbal Flyover on N side of Bangalore?

hi Masalai,

The handle is supposed to be Million Swords.

Update:

RDX was found in the Taj, Oberoi and the Nariman House[Jewish Prayer House]. Some 35KGs of RDX is a lot of explosive to be found in hotels which could have wiped off 100 meters or more.

Well the NSG and the police were prompt to have recovered the bombs that could be set to time from about 8.32minutes to 194 days, from the upbeat hotels and Jewish House. But the police nor the NSG, IB did think about the other likely places where the dumbos could have placed the explosives. Or was it, that they were not really worried about people who travel by train or buses? The Common Man was not that important to the Govmnt?

They have not even bothered to have checked the CST Railway station where the terror started. They did not sanitize the place, and by chance they found a bag full of explosives, and briskly took it away, One Whole week after the attack. Services resumed in the railway station in 2 days, and millions of commuters use the service daily. [Mumbai Local trains are the most crowded per sq.feet in the world].

Now after they tripped on this bag of explosive they hurriedly went back to interrogate the captures ultra, to quiz him on what more surprise were in store for them.

The ultra, Amir Kasam has told them about the bag of RDX they installed while on the trawler from Karachi to Mumbai, and each one of them[10 numbers] carried a bag. So far the police have managed to have found 9 bags, either the ones that went off or the ones diffused. So 1 more to be found, or will it go off? fingers crossed.

ancient kayaker

12-05-2008, 11:28 AM

I assume Million Swords honors the guild of ancient Chinese swordsmiths, or does it have an Indian history also?

Sounds like the police assumed from the start that the major targets were Western tourists. That was reported by the media here in Canada, despite the fact that only 10% of the victims were rich tourists.

millionswords

12-05-2008, 12:29 PM

in fact, the passion for well made Swords came from a very young age, Indian Sword making has great history. All rulers had a specific way of making swords, and as always with Kings, each Sword has a name, and richness attached to it. Well this is not the proper place to discuss swords, lets not.

Yeah, only less than 10% tourists were affected, which we may call collateral. But the Gov. would like to call the rest of the 190 odd people dead as collateral damage!

This will be a discussion in the Indian media for the week, and will dissolve in a while. How is it in Canada? does the media really worry about incidents, and do take responsibility to take it up till the end? or is it the same story?

millionswords

12-08-2008, 02:44 AM

Update:

LeT[lakshar e toiba]'s hand is suspected to be behind the Mumbai attacks from the beginning. And US government and the Indian Gov have been asking Pakistan to act against these terror outfits with transparency. But Pak has always been denying that these outfits are based in pak, or any activity have been going on in their country.

Now, today the Pak gov, have arrested top commandos of the LeT from Lahore, Pakistan. They do not agree, or tag this crackdown on these LeT heads, as a result of the Indian Gov's request or the US pressure.

Rice's visit to India and Pak, and threats to declare Pak as a terrorist state has really put Pakistan under real pressure, and now immediately they act on the terror outfits.

Wonder what next? Will they handover the responsible heads to India?
Will Dawod be handed over if caught? - should wait to see...

Frosty

12-08-2008, 03:40 AM

millionswords

12-08-2008, 06:44 AM

Update:

Unusual activity' has been reported at the village in Multan, Pakistan from where the lone arrested terrorist of the Mumbai attacks Mohammed Ajmal Amir Kasav hails from, a BBC report said. In the report broadcast on its Urdu service, the BBC quoted the people of this village as saying that some security officials had come and taken away Ajmal's family.

The BBC report also quoted the residents as saying that for the last one week activities of government security officials have increased significantly in their village.

The Urdu journalist in its report quoted the Imam of Central mosque, Qari Naveed Akram, in Faridkot of Ookara district, 100 kms from Lahore as saying that Aamir (father of the arrested terrorist) had two sons.

The Imam, however, could not recall the correct name of the second son and said it was Ajmal or Azam and that he was not in touch after his bent of mind had completely transformed towards religious studies, the report said.

millionswords

12-08-2008, 06:49 AM

As tourist visiting India my first reaction was that of shock. I had been told to brace myself for it, but nope it could not possible prepare me for the filth and sqaller in which most Indians live,--Chennai 2008.

The human feaces and urine in streets where restaurants were. The people live at the side of the river in Egmore in an incredible state of poverty.

I was just wondering Millions swords if you thought that allowing people to live like that is some kind of terrorism within itself.

Wether you put them there, or you allowed them to get there, or you leave them there is all the same thing.

The river that you mention in Egmore, is supposed to carry the flood waters out of the city. It's supposed to act as the drain, but people occupy such places that the government has least interest in, and no one owns.

They occupy such places as river beds, and canals, and over a period of time, (immigrants from other parts of city or country) they are entitled to vote by hook and crook methods that politicos use them for, and then once when there is enough pressure from the people and the media, they are said to evacuate the place.

Helpless people, with the support of local parties, get on the street and strike. So the gov. will be forced to give them plots of land, with the tax-payers money and they settle. Some 20 to 30 years gone, and again another set of people occupy, and claim land.

Due to these people, others who earn a living and pay taxes to the government, get flooded, with knee deep water inside houses, spoiling years and years of earnings and savings, but the vote-hungry gov. gives relief funds to those people who caused the flood, and chose to jump into the canal and build a hut for free?

Who to blame? What can the common man do? what have you done around your place? your city? or the place where you live to make it a better place without feaces around?

Frosty

12-08-2008, 07:44 AM

Your reply is predictable and suggests as I new you would that these people are pests.

These people don't live in their filth they live in the upper classes filth.

Give them a job,--give them the job of cleaning up Egmore and pay them and give them some land on which to live.

Ask Mr Ratan to give them a job even though it may not make a profit, pay them for plastic bags collected.

There is no feaces where I live

ancient kayaker

12-08-2008, 12:08 PM

Frosty

12-08-2008, 08:17 PM

The point I am politely dancing around is that the Indians dont see it. I took a long hard look at this in India (difficult to not do so)and talking to Indians they are just pests. It is all there own doing and they dont see them ,literally stepping over them, sometimes dead.

The squaller in which they live is not there own. They dont make garbage, they dont have money , its the garbage they live off.

It would be illegal to keep a dog in these conditions.

A container of some sorts to put garbage in the street would be a start instead of piles of rotting vegitation thrown out with rats openly feeding from it. Crows pecking the eyes of dead rats that have drowned in the evening rains. ( I saw that)

While the "upper class" sit in restaraunts with a little finger in the air reading news papers with head lines --India to be the new world power.

This was in Chennai ,--and Chennai is supposed to be one of the cleanest cities of India. Hypocracy at it utmost.

The motor car factory of Tata was blatently, illegaly built on top of poor farmers land recently. The factory was to biuld that new 1000 dollar car.

The farmers eventually got the Government to move the factory off their land,--eventually.

masalai

12-08-2008, 08:40 PM

Come on Frosty you know by now (or you should) that money rules and the "money controllers" control everything.... we the peons survive, some a little better than others, some just pretend to do so (those with their little finger stuck out).....

Frosty

12-08-2008, 08:55 PM

Some want the British to come back and take over again, well actually more that just some.

Don't think it will happen.

ancient kayaker

12-08-2008, 11:15 PM

As an ex-Brit, no thank you very much! It's Thailand's turn!

millionswords

12-08-2008, 11:23 PM

India was a flourishing nation before the British came.
British ruined most of the world, if left the way they were, India would have had a lot of self-culture, architecture, money, governance, stability, heart, kindness, native art, nativity and what not. British were the prime culprits who ruined the world on all directions. - don't freakin talk about the British to take over! My ***

------------

That apart, and anger apart:

The point I am politely dancing around is that the Indians dont see it. I took a long hard look at this in India (difficult to not do so)and talking to Indians they are just pests. It is all there own doing and they dont see them ,literally stepping over them, sometimes dead.

NY Brox is like that, and the whole world has places like that, it's not that people ignore, people want to be ignored for a long term goal and gain to be achieved over a period of time. - gov. funds, tax-payers money.

The squaller in which they live is not there own. They dont make garbage, they dont have money , its the garbage they live off.

- The gov. or the corporation is not efficient here, they do not let the money out of the budget to do the job right. So every place was like this before, let alone the Egmore slums, but every street had a open garbage, which was never picked up by the government as long as I know.

But like u said it was self initiative by the people over the period of time, people were educated, people read more, people saw more on media, there was more of media to see (unlike only gov. relayed TV), so the change was enabled.

People put their own garbage tanks on street corners. Then arranged a contract operator to collect it, and give it to the gov. and then the gov. acted upon such a initiative. Now over a period of time it has become a routine, and the gov. adopted the idea, and has contracted vehicles to collect garbage.

So the lesson is, you have to take the initiative. You clean your own ass, and not expect one to come over and do it for you. I have watched even dogs wipe their own ass, and not expect some one with 6 senses to do it. People will learn on their own, what people do is for their good, what they do may be limited to what they get, but they do good with what ever limited resources they have and it is for their own good.

People [humans] do not want a angel [liek frosty] to come to tell them what is good and what is not, they learn by experience, who ever chooses to be what they are is how they choose and what they choose and they are sole responsible for that. So let us not poke our little finger at them and try to tech them about what is good for them and get our face thrashed.

[I'm serious, NGO's and some social activist women try to engage in CHANGing these people of the slum, and get their face thrashed.]

People here have their own rules, their own set of protocols that we are not supposed to understand or pity them, they tell people they like the way they live. You visiting this place like a migratory bird once, and seeing the plight and crowing is not going to help you nor them, you ain't gonna understand no nothing!

I live with them, I have deep rooted touch with them, I know them better, I have friends with whom I have studied a few years of my life, and I drink tea and eat with them, I know them better to comment, they know they are pests and they want it to be that way!

It would be illegal to keep a dog in these conditions.
- legal or illegal do not count here

A container of some sorts to put garbage in the street would be a start instead of piles of rotting vegitation thrown out with rats openly feeding from it. Crows pecking the eyes of dead rats that have drowned in the evening rains. ( I saw that)

- it is the theory of nature. This cycle has to happen to let the world move on. What is so gore about it I do not understand, you are a faint haerted old guy I guess. What dies has to go, it is the cycle of life, Parsi's in Mumbai and Goa let their dead relatives on top of "cremation towers" for vultures to feed on! how is that?

Vegetables and waste food need to rot, to go into the sand, only then the soil will be good enough for another vegetation! Psst... no use preaching you about the soil, the vegetation and the precious cycle of nature - when you advocate against nature!

While the "upper class" sit in restaraunts with a little finger in the air reading news papers with head lines --India to be the new world power.

This was in Chennai ,--and Chennai is supposed to be one of the cleanest cities of India. Hypocracy at it utmost.

- Clean, compared to other metropolitan cities. India is a young nation and still trying to set things right from the debacle created by foreigners a long time ago! It will be a process, and we cannot jump into a new world, clean and tidy like a planned England! or the 200 year old gov. of US.

The motor car factory of Tata was blatently, illegaly built on top of poor farmers land recently. The factory was to biuld that new 1000 dollar car.

The farmers eventually got the Government to move the factory off their land,--eventually.

- I was not witness to this, I cannot comment, It had a lot of political mileage, nothing was transparent, so NO COMMENTS.

millionswords

12-08-2008, 11:44 PM

I guess the topic is drifting elsewhere!
I wont comment any further, just updates!
Will try hard to keep my fingers away from responding, or reacting!

Update:
Update:

Pakistan has fallen for pressure.
India set a 48 hour deadline, along with US pressure, and Pakistan has stormed some hideouts of the LeT operatives and have captured the leading man behind the Mumbai 26/11 attacks.

"After the top Lashkar mastermind of the Mumbai terror attacks was arrested in PoK, Pakistan has offered to send a team to India to help with the investigations."

Earlier, the man believed to be the main planner of the Mumbai attacks has reportedly been arrested.

Lashkar-e-Toiba commander Zakiur Rehman Lakhwi was arrested in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Away from the media gaze, the offices of the Jamaat-ud-Dawah, the political front for the Lashkar, were raided in Muzaffarabad in PoK.

But sources say this is the peace formula being pushed by Washington, and its slowly taking shape.

Late on Sunday, the Pakistan security forces, including the army, launched a secretive crackdown on activists of the LeT and its front organisation Jamaat-ud-Dawah in PoK, and across Pakistan. Helicopters were used in the operation in Muzaffarabad.

There was no immediate official word on the crackdown

masalai

12-09-2008, 12:03 AM

Frosty, It looks like you are it - The colonial master for Thailand... :D:D:D

Frosty

12-09-2008, 12:15 AM

I apologise ,--it appears that you have made no mistakes and it is all some one elses fault

No-- there is nowhere in the world like India --India is unique in that respect.

To squat and shit on the pavement as people pass by is neither legal or human.

Ive lived amongst them too as they fled India by the millions to destroy Bradford, Leeds and Birmingham.

Unfortunately there are not migratory but claim full social security unimaginable from there life in India.

Some are wealthy, owning successfull industries and houses for there never ending list of relatives, but never gain class.

I as a British citizen I contribute to this with tax, I believe I could not buy land in Chennai --- I couldnt but a telephone sim.

I congratulate you in your tunnel vision.

ancient kayaker

12-09-2008, 12:38 PM

It is common to blame former colonialists for present problems, and sometimes it is justified. The Brits get at least their share of that, fair or not. The legitimacy of such arguments should be subjected to the following tests:

a. How long ago did they leave?
b. Did they leave it better than they found it?
c. Is it better or worse or just the same now as then?
d. What have other nations with comparable problems done in the same time?

60 years ago Britain itself was in serious trouble, bereft of its colonies on which it had learned to depend, short of natural resources drained by centuries of almost unbroken wars, most against enemies bent on conquest, and staggering under the after-effects of a huge recent war. I was there at the time: there were food shortages, water shortages, housing shortages, polluted air and water, destroyed or antiquated manufacturing facilities. UK dealt with those; it took far longer to recover than other nations such as Japan and Germany, but it did so, the process was completed decades ago.

The problem is not the foreign colonists of a half-century ago, it's the international companies raping nations' resources, it's the emerging nation next door trying to stab your own nation in the back, it's local leaders selling out their own people for personal gain and power, it's internal divisions looking for revenge for the real or imagined insults of the past, it's gross over-population, it's disregard for the environment and its consequences. And yes, for a tiny minority of nations, it's Nature and location; as well, not instead of.

When I Google India here are the first sentences from the first 3 responses I got:

"India is particularly rich in a variety of natural resources"
"Natural resources: coal (fourth-largest reserves in the world), iron ore, manganese, ... chromite, natural gas, diamonds, petroleum, limestone, arable land ..."
"Population pressures on arable land contribute to the land degradation"

It sounds as though nature has been kind to you. I think it is unreasonable to blame the Brits for present-day lack of sewage and housing.

The early history of India reads a bit like recent Iraqi history:
1. remove the tyrant (Britain, Saddam)
2. rejoicing by all
3. war between opposing factions, mostly of religious nature
4. will Iraq have to be divided into 2 or more eternally antagonistic states like India? Only time will tell.
5. pressure from external enemies

"India was a flourishing nation before the British came" ???
- for shame Millionswords!

In the years before the British occupation India was invaded by Muslims, Mongols, Persians and Afghanis. It was an area of independent kingdoms unified from time to time by powerful foreign invaders. The Portugese and Dutch started the European colonisation. The first English presence was a trading post. The English, Portugese and Dutch, later the French all tried to push each other out and the English won. None of that was to the benefit of the Indian people of course, but there was not really an "Indian people" at the time, just 500 plus states speaking almost as many languages which were often warring between themselves.

Britain was India's last invader, and I sincerely hope there will never be another.

millionswords

12-10-2008, 12:23 PM

add another question to the list of Questions asked above:

e. How big is the country(geographically) and how diverse?

This is a very important aspect for a country to bounce back. To reshape itself, and emerge as a successful nation.
----------

The problem is not the foreign colonists of a half-century ago, it's the international companies raping nations' resources, it's the emerging nation next door trying to stab your own nation in the back, it's local leaders selling out their own people for personal gain and power, it's internal divisions looking for revenge for the real or imagined insults of the past, it's gross over-population,

- I second that, could not agree more.

it's disregard for the environment and its consequences. And yes, for a tiny minority of nations, it's Nature and location; as well, not instead of.

- this is a little tricky to decide. It has to be on factor and fact.
- I should agree the mob is unruly, to the core. Education and gene should be blamed I guess, but it has to evolve over a period of time, and I guess we are seeing the change, slowly.
- Disregard to nature and resources is a forced way of life, it's like the rule of the "survival instinct" killing a animal to eat is the way of life for a lion, it cannot stand and think about it and become vegetarian. It has no time for that. Likewise, these people whom we talk about, who don't have regard to nature - are all the ones who can understand and act accordingly. But, BUT they are running behind the material life and filling their stomach. So the output is, negligence towards nature and it's resources, which is changing too. But I will blame the enforcement for it, there is no strict enforcement here. Again it is a blame game, but fact. When the enforcer does the job right, the community becomes a beautiful place.

It sounds as though nature has been kind to you. I think it is unreasonable to blame the Brits for present-day lack of sewage and housing.

[and in reply to my own post #31 - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/terror-taj-palace-oberoi-trident-india-25152-3.html#post241968]

Well that was an outburst of anger AK, when frosty advocated implicitly that Brits take over India again and every thing would be alright.
I apologize for the outburst.

I never intend to blame the Brits for the present day sewage and lack of housing.

It's hard to stand divided by religion, cast, creed, language and the clear and present problems that we face daily and yet emerge as a nation. It should take it's due course, there is a lot to think about and discuss. But it will be a never ending topic. Guess this should be discussed in a Indian forum where you can have multiple views, I cannot advocate alone, not fair either.

It's so so much diverse here in India, you travel 100 KMs and you will see things differ. The way people talk, the way people cook, the way people marry, the way people eat, the way people think, and the rules and protocols people follow - changes within half-an-hour of travel.

Amongst so much chaos and diversity, goals become difficult to attain, methods become complicated, and diverted.

One cannot derive a reason for what it is now, one can only presume and work on the logic, the factors for the present state of things vary a lot, and the people will tend to stop and think some day, and things will change faster than you can anticipate. So lets hope for the best, and thanks for bringing up this topic Frosty, and one more thing, Brits invading India cannot be argued by me as for the best of Interest for my nation and it was not right from our perspective at any given point of time.

Leaving the puppy in it's mother's lap is better than to pick it up and say I will raise it best. You pick it up for your selfishness and by the way your feeding and rest of the love shown to the pup is all a by product alone!

Likewise, (weather already invaded or not) leaving a nation to be itself, would have been the best at any given point of time. Let it be India or Afganistan or Thailand!

Let them the people do the best for themselves and lets not poke our nose in their birth right!

Brits may have brought a lot of good to our nation, but that cannot be advocated was for the well being of India in the later centuries.

I don't know if India would have been so much industrialized, and educated with "English" language as now with out the Brits. But without them, India could - COULD have formulated it's own way of life, it's own language(s). Today's children would have been learning in their own mother tongue, and not complicate themselves to learn another language first and then learn the subject. They would have learned the subjects in their own language, like Japs and the Chinese, suffered to speak a foreign language called "English" but still well educated and proud. I'm but helpless to attribute today's plight to learn everything in English to the Brits! [it's not easy to change everything from the Laws to Books into other language[s] and change the entire system, though efforts have been going on to bring in native language learning! less successfully].

Weather it is good or bad is a completely different debate!

I will wind up here!

masalai

12-10-2008, 04:29 PM

Further on Frosty's suggestion that there is an undercurrent of old folk who remember the "colonial days", with more certainty in equitable justice and policing it - - the wish for the return of the "colonial masters" is also expressed in PNG - especially when adverse impacts of political graft, favouritism, and lack of applied law & order are evident at villager level....

millionswords, your reaction is out of context to the implied perception expressed by some older "natives" to visiting expatriates who may have turned a sensitive ear to reminisces of "old times of certainty and regulation" and wishing away minority behaviour or aggressive disruption of all others to make their political point.....

Frosty

12-10-2008, 08:06 PM

Firstly I think that you like typing Millions words.

Indians speak English because it suggests education and class. Even though they may speak their mother language , they do not, not even to each other.

Ive seen Indians struggle to communicate to a waiter who did not speak English but would not talk in Indian, Possibly because I was there.

My Indian foreman (Thomas) in Dubai would stand in the court yard every day waiting for the 9.15 to take off from the nearby airport, with chest out and a tear in his eyes he would salute the British airways flight to London.

ancient kayaker

12-10-2008, 09:59 PM

"It's hard to stand divided by religion, cast, language ..."

So how can we handle the differences between peoples?

In the US the "melting pot" theory was in vogue for a century, in other words, stop being whaterver you were, be an American and nothing else. Canada holds fast to cultural diversity, remain what you were and be a Canadian as well. In the UK for a long time all commonwealth citizens were also UK citizens and hence entitled to live in the UK if they wished.

All of these concepts are noble in intent but rather neglectful of human nature. To the extent that they work, it is partly due to the absence of differences of language at least and to a degree cast also. Canada, US and UK are also aided by a century of gradually increasing indifference to variations of religion except in a few remaining areas such as N. Ireland.

I grew up in the UK. It is a characteristic of children, in my observation, that they will ostracize child that they had been happily playing with if they become aware of a difference. This I know from my own personal experience. When about 10 I played with a Jewish boy without knowing or caring what that signified. I visited his home and was very fond of his mother who was a wizard cook. In the UK today that would have little relevance but 60 years ago it was otherwise. It took a few Jewish "jokes" in the media and from adults to sensitize me to the existence of people with a difference. When the other kids started to avoid me because of my friendship it didn't take me long to make an end it. A child of that age cannot withstand ridicule or simple separation from the mob if he or she has a choice on the matter. In High School I formed a lifelong friendship with a Catholic: barely got raised eyebrows from the older generation and nobody my age gave a damn. Yet later in my college years a thoroughly black friend of mine, a nice, gentle guy and a talented musician, was refused admission to a pub: given the clientele the proprietor was probably wise to do so. Things did later improve in the UK; nearly 20 years later I could be sunning on the beach with a bunch of guys and hear the others rag one of us for not needing a tan before I realized he was what was then referred to as coloured. Just hadn't noticed. However, when I return there more recently I hear a lot of unpleasant comments, it's more fear than anger, aimed at the huge numbers of visibly overseas immigrants.

So a lot can be overcome in another generation. Look what has happened in the US, less than 50 years after protests against forced integration and 40 years since Governor george Wallace ran for US president on a anti-desegregation slate.

Can the rage that results from such events as in Mumbai be overcome? Thus far at least I have not heard of a backlash against Muslims in India that has broken out into violence. However, these things can fester for centuries; the attacks by Serbs on Kosovans was in part relatiation for the treatment of Serbs during the Ottoman invasion about 600 years ago and the 350 years of subjugation that followed.

With 3 strikes against them, religion, caste and language, plus poverty far beyond what the US/Canada/UK have, as Millionswords says, it's going to take a long time. The healing does not even start until a generation or two the shooting stops. Maybe adopting the English language is a first and necessary step, if distasteful; it gets rid of probably the biggest problem; if you can't communicate you can't negotiate a peace.

rasorinc

12-10-2008, 10:14 PM

A very nice piece of thoughtful writing. I commend you Ancient Kayaker.
Also, it sure beats reading the arguments of global warming. Stan

masalai

12-11-2008, 01:20 AM

ancient kayaker - - - - I don't know if it got through as reputation enhancement - - - "Thank you kind Sir for a well put case for moderation & understanding" - - - "on your next post (oops) -masalai-" (put on post 35 by mistake?) - - I do not know how - except the wine and cooked chook (poultry) was mooooorish and I overindulged :D:D:D:D:D

rasorinc - - - - Reading a little drivel, (except for Guillermo's posts which are really worthy of a sage and guru), makes for light entertainment for the peons (self and self identified associates) :D:D:D:D:D:D

Frosty

12-11-2008, 01:24 AM

Not one of kayakars best Im afraid, I failed to see the point of the post above. rather a reiteration.

I am a racist, I hate ignorance, thats why I left UK years ago, to live with foreigners and to be able to choose my neighbours. I have been a foreigner and felt the effects of it for a long time.

However I did not move to Thialand with out money, on the contrary. I did not expect Thailand to give me money or a house in which to live, not that they would. I can not buy land with out the use of lawers digging onto loop holes.

I left yorkshire because of the influx of foreigners that were ignorant of the British ways. Apparantly wanting to come to England to start a new life but brought their old one with them lock stock and barrel,--and then some like religion. To be awakend in Yorkshire by the call of the koran yet to be told the bells of the Christian church on a traditional sunday morning is offensive.

Christmas trees are knocked to the floor by Immigrants who are supposedly offended by a little tree with some lights on.

Here in Malaysia right now on the radio as I type christmas advertisments are being aired and I know the Muslim yacht club will have a Christmas buffet as most of the hotels. It is likley as was last year that the giggling Muslim girls from the reception will walk around on Chrstmas day giving out Chrstmas cards.

This is how it should be. The melting pot can work, my wife is Thai.

I hat ignorance and street shitters.

millionswords

12-11-2008, 04:41 AM

Frosty- "where ignorance is bliss, it's folly to be wise," [ ;) ]

Thanks AK, for putting it all in a nice capsule. And yes a common language is certainly the need of the hour and breaks a lot of barriers.
[but my language is dying. I have to be sad about it too... languages that were ancient, such as Greek and Latin.]

I like what Frosty said in the last post, waking to the sound of the Koran, and Muslim girls giggling around to give Christmas cards - Sure is what the world would look like if all the act of terrorism were to be slayed.

The world would be a better place to live, let live!
Give - that is the only way you can stop them the street shitters!

Give in plenty to the needy, part with what you have, part with what is not necessary to you, GIVE.

Do we do it?

Frosty

12-11-2008, 07:36 AM

Oh ,--your not a word twister are you millions of em?

You conveniently attached my disgust at being awoke with the Koran to giggling muslim girls giving out christmas cards.

Don't become too comfortable with you participation here. With tricks like that you will soon be talking to yourself.

It will not be the only one that noticed that.

The number of killed in Mumbai has been inflated and a new head count released.

Myself Im bored and tired of India and Pakistan like two little boys in a school yard taunting and pulling each others pullovers. Finger pointing and proportioning blame. Exagerating events trying to get the other into trouble.

In this part of the world the mentality of Indians and Pakistanis is mob like to which rumour flames quickly.

millionswords

12-13-2008, 12:19 AM

Update:

Pakistan not to hand over citizen to India.

Ajmal Amir kasab's father admits that Ajam is his son, he has identified his son from the photographs, and the data he has provided matches with the info told by Ajmal to interrogators.

A 7 month pregnant lady was hit by the bullets sprayed in CST Station by the arrested terrorist. She has a bullet lodged in her head, she seems to be stable, and the baby seems to be in good shape. Her husband who was badly injured is critically wounded is in the hospital, they were supposed to have gone out of Mumbai to their home town in UP.

Another tragedy, a woman who was supposed to have come to Chennai for her marriage was hit on the head, and wounded, but she was alive at the hospital, she managed to come to Chennai, with a shaven head and married the man of her life.

millionswords

12-13-2008, 12:28 AM