New project need help.

[deepdwn8]

Hi all,

My name is Dan Danvers, im a high school student in Florida. My friend and I have been pondering a sailboat project for years now and finally in our drafting/design class we got a break to finally put our ideas together.

We've come out with a design that slightly resembles the Nokia 18ft Skiff and other skiffs like them, (the laser 49er to be exact). I've drawn basic plans for the boat being sure to keep everything symmetrical especially because i know I'm using the wrong software (auto CAD architectural desktop).

other than having the dream of building and sailing a boat of our own design we have almost no clue what to do next. Personally I'm interested in graduating college and going into the field of yacht design. So this project is very serious to me.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you
-Dan Danvers

[Stumble]

If the project is about building a boat I would highly advice building a small, relatively simple boat with pre-made plans. This will give you a grounding in what exacally you will need to expect for a more complicated design, particularly pointing out where you are likely to run into problems on a future build.

If the project is to design your own boat, then build it. I would recommend you build a small, relatively simple boat with pre-made plans. Ya, I know it is the same advice, but the theory still holds. Starting with both designing and building a boat is a huge undertaking, plus since you will be the first to ever build it there is noone available to help you when (not if) you run into problems.

I would look around for a sailing scow design that would at least allow you to build a fast planing hull (not as fast as the 49er though) so when you are done you have a boat that you will want to sail.

[deepdwn8]

Do you have any companies that you know of. or hull designs that i could search to find planing hull plans.

The design part of the project was to get my feet a little wet in the field, and i loved it, so im going to start working towards it.

My friend and I have done many hours of work on his family's 32 ft powerboat, including fiberglass work, electrical and other things. as far as the design elements go in the design for further reference is there specifics of position of the mast and dagger board? Or do you know of any books i could obtain to read and start studying?

Thanks again
-Dan Danvers

[Gilbert]

If you are definitely going to build it you can just draw it on the loft floor. You will just be skipping the part where you draw up the plans. Plans are not absolutely necessary when you are the builder and you are designing a rather small boat like this.
You did ask what the next step is. This is my suggestion.

[Gilbert]

We posted replies almost simultaneously, so I will respond again.
Why don't you consider building a Geary 18' flattie, especially if there are other flattie sailors in your area. It is a great class and a very good sailer and simple to build, to boot.

[Stumble]

Do a google search for small sailboat designs and you will be inundated with options. I would really look for a boat that if fast, and relatively easy to build, with a minimum amount of parts. I hesitate to make any particular suggestions since there are a huge variety of designs out there, but many of the scow plans are cheap, and the boats are pretty easy to build. Plus a scow class is going to be fast, and can get a portsmouth rating if there isn't a class nearby.

[gggGuest]

Take a good look at the tech support resources here...
http://www.uk-cherub.org

[deepdwn8]

although i live in Florida wich is in the states, this design seems more simple than the one i created which i will include in my post when i get home from school.

Is it a kit boat? or would i have to buy it new?

The other thing is and i'm considdering all options, I'm keen on a self-bailing hull design, much like the modern open 60's and other boats like that.

Money is definatly an option and my friend and I are running on a shoe string budget.


Thank you all
-Dan Danvers

[Stumble]

http://www.unclejohns.com/skiff/
http://sailing.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=sailing&cdn=sports&tm=2018&gps=57_9_559_256&f=00&tt=14&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.stevproj.com/FastSailrs.html
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans.htm
http://www.instantboats.com/index.html

All have some low cost or free plans. Just look for one you think you can tackle with a bill of goods you can afford. Remember that the mast and sailing equipment will likely be the most expensive parts you will need to buy. So if you can scrounge old stuff from a laser or Flying Scott graveyard you might be able to save some money.

[bistros]

although i live in Florida wich is in the states, this design seems more simple than the one i created which i will include in my post when i get home from school.

Is it a kit boat? or would i have to buy it new?

The other thing is and i'm considdering all options, I'm keen on a self-bailing hull design, much like the modern open 60's and other boats like that.

Money is definatly an option and my friend and I are running on a shoe string budget.


Thank you all
-Dan Danvers

Building a competitive Cherub is not a first build project, nor is it cheap. I'd think of something far simpler and first-build (and wallet) friendly.

Stitch & tape plywood designs are the easiest place to start - consider the Paperjet from Dudley Dix Designs. (http://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm) or Eric McNicholl's Quetzal design (http://www.veloxdesign.net). Both are much simpler builds, do not use exotic materials or advanced techniques and are relatively inexpensive to get on the water. Both have enough performance to blow you socks off.

Funny, the Nokia 18' skiff you are talking about (from the Ronstan videos) was at my club here in Canada for the last few years. It's pretty dated now, but has moved on to Annapolis, Maryland.

--
Bill

[gggGuest]

Building a competitive Cherub is not a first build project,
Actually it happens fairly regularly over here and its a damn sight easier and simpler to get a good result than messing round with stitch and glue. Since foam sandwich became widely used started I think 5 UK Championships have been won by first build boats.

[bistros]

Actually it happens fairly regularly over here and its a damn sight easier and simpler to get a good result than messing round with stitch and glue. Since foam sandwich became widely used started I think 5 UK Championships have been won by first build boats.

With the built-in support system and class association behind you in the UK I'd agree. Considering North America isn't exactly a dinghy building paradise, and support is limited to Internet posts, I'd beg to differ. There isn't a lot of people here willing to share vacuum bagging equipment, molds, composite expertise and hands-on time.

I watched a stitch & glue skiff (Quetzal) go together in four weeks this year, from flat panels to well finished boat. Thousands of Mirror dingies were built with this technique. The Mirror turned around the UK sailing scene 50-some years ago and opened up sailing to the masses in a way not duplicated since.

It's much easier to build a boat like a Cherub with a community of great folks behind you than it is to do so in isolation. Unfortunately there are (almost) no Cherubs here to sail with (or B14s, or Laser 4000, or RS800, or whatever). Basically, performance sailing here is about at the same stage things were 20 years ago in the UK.

Much as I wish the average skill set here were good enough to have folks turning out vacuum bagged, foam cored carbon & kevlar hulls from garages that could win nationals, I just can't see it happening for a first timer here. No molds, no easily accessed mentors and no local industry to leverage.

--
Bill

[gggGuest]

You don't need vacuum bagging and moulds. Wet layup and a jig made from battens and cheap blockboard is plenty good enough.

[bistros]

You don't need vacuum bagging and moulds. Wet layup and a jig made from battens and cheap blockboard is plenty good enough.

You seem to miss my point in almost Marie Antoinette-esque "Let them eat cake" fashion. The UK and your performance dinghy sailing community is rich in knowledge, resources, competition, technical savvy and friendliness. You live in an abundance of riches, and may not be aware that things are not quite the same elsewhere.

I'd be willing to wager the original poster has never sailed on a modern performance boat like a Cherub, B14, RS800, I-14 or 49er.

I would love for the original poster to build a stunning Cherub in Florida while in secondary school. Budget? About $6.5-10,000 (3-5K pounds sterling) US build budget for a complete boat with carbon spars, rack tubing, laminate sails etc.

I just don't see it happening here, but I wish it would.

--
Bill

[deepdwn8]

I have sailed on a laser 49er, but it wasnt for racing. however I understand what your saying about the community. all i have behind me is two dedicated families; a best friend his dad (works for MAN diesels) his mom (Marine technician) a bunch of guys down in Miami who work on the mega-yachts, and hopefully i'll get to meet many new people in the field while doing this project...
funny enough the two families that want to build the boat (my family and my friend's family) are from England and Germany. perhaps its both my friend and I's maritime background or just our lust for a learning adventure that is making us want to build this boat, I'd like to think that me and him will benefit from whatever.

Thank you Bistros, the paper jet is exactly what i was looking for and with a little bit of work and saving money i think my build team will be able to afford it.

[gggGuest]

The UK and your performance dinghy sailing community is rich in knowledge, resources, competition, technical savvy and friendliness.

Sounds as if you're suffering from grass is greenitis. Actually we had none of that (except maybe the friendliness and that surlyt not unknown in the US) when we started out doing foam home building, and its still a tiny minority who does any of this sort of thing... The Champs winner back in the 80s I mentioned was to my knowledge the 4th home built foam boat in the UK, and one of those was back about 1970 and didn't contribute to the general knowledge base...

The internet and communications has completely transformed the whole business of support, there are people worldwide you can talk to - hell, if you've got a problem you could post it a how do I with pictures in the Sailing Anarchy dinghy forum on Monday night and by Tuesday morning have a bunch of input from people all over the world who've done this stuff. My first foam boat, which I got a pro built shell for as it happens, was I think the 4th or 5th, and I was desperately wary of all this tech, and put on ply decks because that was what I was comfortable with, but had a go with wet layup for some of the interior stuff to learn. It was immediately clear to me that I'd made a big mistake in buying the ply and should have gone for the foam stuff all the way...

There's also no comparison in what you need in tools. experience, skill, all the rest of it. The wet layup foam techniques are just *so* much easier and more reliable.

[bistros]

Sounds as if you're suffering from grass is greenitis. Actually we had none of that (except maybe the friendliness and that surlyt not unknown in the US) when we started out doing foam home building, and its still a tiny minority who does any of this sort of thing... The Champs winner back in the 80s I mentioned was to my knowledge the 4th home built foam boat in the UK, and one of those was back about 1970 and didn't contribute to the general knowledge base...

The internet and communications has completely transformed the whole business of support, there are people worldwide you can talk to - hell, if you've got a problem you could post it a how do I with pictures in the Sailing Anarchy dinghy forum on Monday night and by Tuesday morning have a bunch of input from people all over the world who've done this stuff. My first foam boat, which I got a pro built shell for as it happens, was I think the 4th or 5th, and I was desperately wary of all this tech, and put on ply decks because that was what I was comfortable with, but had a go with wet layup for some of the interior stuff to learn. It was immediately clear to me that I'd made a big mistake in buying the ply and should have gone for the foam stuff all the way...

There's also no comparison in what you need in tools. experience, skill, all the rest of it. The wet layup foam techniques are just *so* much easier and more reliable.


You've got my attention - do you have any recommended reading (books, sites etc.) to learn more? I've did a pass (a couple years ago mind you_ through the UK Cherub site and will do re-read with a more open mind now.

From the outside looking in the UK dinghy scene seems much more active, progressive and generally bigger than the one here. I live in a dinghy & performance sailing hotspot (maybe not the right word today at -4 degrees Celcius), but most of North America is stuck in the middle 20th century boat design and racing fleet wise. Although we have a legitimate I-14 fleet, 29ers and 49ers at our club, they are still hugely outnumbered by Albacores and 505s.

You have domestic commercial boat builders, domestic sail makers, chandlers and a sail boating industry there that just doesn't exist on the same scale here in Canada.

--
Bill

[bistros]

I have sailed on a laser 49er, but it wasnt for racing. however I understand what your saying about the community. all i have behind me is two dedicated families; a best friend his dad (works for MAN diesels) his mom (Marine technician) a bunch of guys down in Miami who work on the mega-yachts, and hopefully i'll get to meet many new people in the field while doing this project...
funny enough the two families that want to build the boat (my family and my friend's family) are from England and Germany. perhaps its both my friend and I's maritime background or just our lust for a learning adventure that is making us want to build this boat, I'd like to think that me and him will benefit from whatever.

Thank you Bistros, the paper jet is exactly what i was looking for and with a little bit of work and saving money i think my build team will be able to afford it.

I'm glad you like the design. There are a couple builds in progress that are being blogged in the US. If you go on Sailing Anarchy's Dinghy forum you'll see the Paperjet 14 threads on the first page. There are a lot of good photos of build progress there.

Not that it is a big issue, but a 49er is a twin trapeze, asymmetrical spinnaker skiff that is NOT built by Laser Performance - it has never been a Laser product. The 49er is the Olympic class two man skiff designed by Julian Bethwaite and licensed out to a few builders worldwide. Julian designed a lot of the Grand Prix 18s and B-18 skiffs you see sailing world wide. There is a very limited presence of 49ers in North America.

[deepdwn8]

I'm glad you like the design. There are a couple builds in progress that are being blogged in the US. If you go on Sailing Anarchy's Dinghy forum you'll see the Paperjet 14 threads on the first page. There are a lot of good photos of build progress there.

Not that it is a big issue, but a 49er is a twin trapeze, asymmetrical spinnaker skiff that is NOT built by Laser Performance - it has never been a Laser product. The 49er is the Olympic class two man skiff designed by Julian Bethwaite and licensed out to a few builders worldwide. Julian designed a lot of the Grand Prix 18s and B-18 skiffs you see sailing world wide. There is a very limited presence of 49ers in North America.


Thats very interesting, I didnt know it wasnt built by laser, but i presume thats why it isnt offered in "laserperformance.com" website. Anyways, i'm talking to my build team today and it looks like the paper jet is the preffered design. we will buy the plans as soon as i can contact a dealer that ships to the area, and if everyone would like i'll start a thread for the build and keep everbody posted where everyone can feel free to comment on the build and tell my team any tips or pointers

thanks again
-Dan Danvers

[Stumble]

If you can find the plans for the paper jet let me know. I was looking at it too, but I could only find a kit. :(

Since I prefer to do my own layup I decided to keep looking.

[deepdwn8]

If you can find the plans for the paper jet let me know. I was looking at it too, but I could only find a kit. :(

Since I prefer to do my own layup I decided to keep looking.

Unfortunatly, the paperjet only comes as a kit, with an instruction manuel.
check some of the other links that people posted, i belive the cherub was a good design and you might be able to find plans for that.

[bistros]

If you can find the plans for the paper jet let me know. I was looking at it too, but I could only find a kit. :(

Since I prefer to do my own layup I decided to keep looking.

Send an email to Dudley Dix on his website. He'll respond quick, although lofting errors can make a project a quick failure.

As far as doing your own layout goes, I honestly don't think the money saved is worth it compared to buying a laser cut kit. You can't get more accurate than cutting from the DXF files directly.

As far as pricing goes, a friend of mine has a local concession to cut the Paperjet 14 kits for sale, and he's certainly not charging amounts that are outrageous. Material cost, CNC table time and a few points for his trouble. No one is getting rich here.

Eric McNicholl at Velox Design will sell plans.

[thesawdustmaker]

I am presently building a wooden sailing scow from from plans available at: http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/Tabu This is my first sailboat build and i chose it for several reasons _ it looks really cool, it is proported to be relatively fasr, it is wooden (no sophisticated complications), and I can build it all by myself in my shop - hull, mast, sail, even down the the pintles and gudgeons and all for about $700. I even have visions of fabricating pullys and clamcleats from wood.
Without the help from folks on this forum (pay special attention to Bistro) I would be flailing. "The Annapolis Book on Seamanship" will give a good overall foundation.
I have used the plans with modifications, some dreamed up and some suggested here, to personalise the boat to my liking and have learned a wealth of information that I could have never gained otherwise without making sawdust.
I suggest that you choose a 16' wooden boat that looks cool to you and is at least expected to be moderately fast and build it - it could begin an adventure that will last a lifetime - sail on

P.S Check out my post "Tabu" and see the help I have received - If you decide to build Tabu, I will be willing to feed you as much help - if not more - than you need

[Stumble]

Bistro,

I want to do my own cutting not really to save money but to go through the process. I am slowely working my way up from building a couple OSP (One sheet of Plywood) boats to eventually wanting to build, well I am not sure what yet, but for me the building is part of the fun and learning experience. Particularly since I already have a relatively fast boat to race (an Olson 30). That being said I am sure that a CNC cut panel is much better than I could ever do, and I am sure your friend isn't charging a fortune.

[zerogara]

This thread has been dead for a long while and can't help but wonder whether the attempt came to fruition and via what route of those suggested, or others that it inspired.

I wonder whether this economic downfall has put a damper on many peoples' dreams. In some way it could have sprung new interest from those that couldn't afford a commercially built boat.

My own contribution to budget performance skiff building would be this.
There are plenty of used and abused race boats of interest that can be had for little money, and while the hull, deck, and foils are full of damage and poor repairs making them obsolete for racing, the sails and hardware are relatively new. What one can do once they select the design they like is to find such a boat, strip all the hardware that is good, use filler to make the hull and deck perfect shape wise and use them as plugs. Built a mold on those plugs and reproduce the pieces possibly using better materials and techniques the original manufacturer used making them stronger and lighter.
One may actually locate the shortfalls and problems of the original design and maybe improvise and revise some of the deck arrangement.
If this exercise doesn't make you a boat builder I don't know what will.
In the UK one can buy a 3-4 old I14 cheaper than a 10-15y.o Laser classic.